Guild Wars 2

It is a question which I would like answered.
- First of all: My personal and overall experience of Guild Wars 2 has been quite good. That being said, I can’t help but feel that it is a grind and here is why:
Each zone has a number of tasks, vistas, points of interest, skill point challenges and waypoints. Find all of these in each zone and you’re done with that particular zone, rendering it, well, useless afterwards.

- There is very little to catch my interest in the zones, because I never really got acquainted with them. By that I mean that in Guild Wars 2 I am always on the go. There is one task in the different areas of the zone, so you’re not spending much time in a village and getting to know the people there or the village itself.

- This basically means that I spend more time trying to locate every task, vista, Skill point challenge, PoI and waypoint in each area, than just enjoying the scenery, because GW2 is fast paced when it comes to world exploration. The player is always on the go, always grinding for something, always working towards a goal.
- I would like to see the game giving players the option of taking it slow and try to relax a little.

- What do you guys think about this? If you take into account what I’ve just said, is there then some things you recognize from it?

I think this is a problem with your approach to what’s on offer rather than the game itself.

Just because you can rush quickly from point to point doesn’t mean you have to or even that you should. If you would prefer to take your time, look at the scenery, talk to the NPCs and generally enjoy the world then you can do that too.

Personally I use things like vistas, POI’s, hearts, skill points etc. to give me a general idea of where to go and then I explore as I’m going. Sometimes that just means stopping to look at the scenery, sometimes it means talking to NPCs in a village before moving on, sometimes it means I discover a jump puzzle which leads me off in a completely different direction and I suddenly realise I’ve been playing for 2 hours, done about 15 things and still haven’t gotten to the POI I was heading to in the first place.

When you start really exploring there’s a lot on offer. There’s even some little stories you can get involved with which would be side-quests in other games. Some of them involve DE’s or event chains but others you just do without any prompting.

all mmos are grinds in some way. And actually, the game does give you the option to take it slow in that you really won’t miss out so much if you do intend to take it slow. Sure your armor/weapon won’t be as fancy-looking as those with legendaries/expensive exotics, but you won’t be denied content, and I guess that’s a plus.

It then depends on what your goals are whenever you log-in. Some days, I just do enough to finish my daily then log-out. I usually do them in wvw. But after running around, I find myself playing for 3hrs already. Some days, I just log-in, head to LA, and start chatting with random people there or chatting with my guildies/friends. I can honestly say, so long as I’m having a good conversation, I don’t really mind spending hours just sitting/dancing in LA naked

GW2 has become a little bit of a grind for me but I use the term in a positive way because im choosing to do it. Call it personal progress rather than game progress, wanting things instead of needing them. I want ascended infused rings, I dont need them because there’s very little to the Fractals other than personal bragging rights.

I also want to complete all the jumping puzzles and record them for my Youtube channel. Im two away from the full set having taken a long break from them because I didnt want to do them.

You notice im highlighting a certain word here? GW2 isnt about needing, its about wanting. The quicker people get this into their heads the better.

Danikat, I like the fact that Guild Wars 2 has a lot to offer if one just goes about exploring, and actually it made me think about another aspect of the game which would be nice to have more of in the zones. Dynamic Events.
- My first experience with a Dynamic Event was not really intended. I was heading up for Divinity’s Reach to continue my personal story, but I was interrupted when I heard some villagers talking about feeling sick, and talking about how they thought there was something wrong with the water. I investigated the matter, and the NPC’s talked about the water pump not too far from there. I went to investigate further and was eventually able to fix the problem.

I would like to see more Dynamic Events in the game, especially because they emphasize exploration. I loved that I was able to respond to the sorrounding world and not a quest marker.

I would like more Dynamic Events because it sets the world in motion. I know that there is more to exploration than Dynamic Events, but one can always choose to ignore the village now, and go exploring instead. We can always come back to save it afterwards, if need be.

- Anyhow, thanks for the reply, both of you (I hadn’t really considered sitting/dancing naked in LA a possibility, penatbater). I’ll see you guys in-game.

- And any replies from the forum is, of course, still welcome.

No, all grinding are optional esthetic gear at this stage. There is a small grind with fotm but only in terms of fractal level which is not inhibiting you from experiencing the content.

Wait ’till you hit level 80.

Thereon.3495:

GW2 has become a little bit of a grind for me but I use the term in a positive way because im choosing to do it. Call it personal progress rather than game progress, wanting things instead of needing them. I want ascended infused rings, I dont need them because there’s very little to the Fractals other than personal bragging rights.

I also want to complete all the jumping puzzles and record them for my Youtube channel. Im two away from the full set having taken a long break from them because I didnt want to do them.

You notice im highlighting a certain word here? GW2 isnt about needing, its about wanting. The quicker people get this into their heads the better.

A very good point too, Thereon.
- If you played the first Guild Wars, you would also know that one did not need Elite Armor sets, because they were not better. They looked better, so there was also an emphasis on wanting.

Jay.3284:

Wait ’till you hit level 80.

I have a lvl 80, maetro.

It can be that way if you play the game as a checklist. Granted, there is a title associated with playing the game as a checklist.

Hopefully jan-mar will begin to fix it, but no promises. I want to see their vision moving forward.

But you are right, it can be a bit that way. Imagine if skyrim actually showed you a list of all the quests in the game. That’s how GW2 feels. There’s nothing to really discover because I already know where everything is. There are exciting lore tid bits sprinkled throughout, but the flashing PoIs, Hearts, and other points take away from it.

+1 with Danikat
Just because you can go fast doesn’t mean you should.

On the other hand, Anet is working hard to make it not a grindy game… But in the end, the grind is here. As an exemple, the Gift of Battle : made of 500 Badges of Honor, which you get from doing the Jumping Puzzles, and not from actually killing people (i got like 1 Badge every 10 kills or something)

No matter how you look at it and no matter how hard Anet works, a MMO has to involve grind at some point.

All MMOs are a grind. If you don’t like that, go play an RTS or FPS.

It becomes a grind when progression is essentially combating forms of inflation within the game model.

wiloman.8613:

+1 with Danikat
Just because you can go fast doesn’t mean you should.

On the other hand, Anet is working hard to make it not a grindy game… But in the end, the grind is here. As an exemple, the Gift of Battle : made of 500 Badges of Honor, which you get from doing the Jumping Puzzles, and not from actually killing people (i got like 1 Badge every 10 kills or something)

No matter how you look at it and no matter how hard Anet works, a MMO has to involve grind at some point.

Indeed, but then it can be concluded that there are different forms of grind, where one grows stale whilst the other draws the player in.

Games consist of three aspects. Toy, immersion and goal.
Toy: The ability to sit down with the game and have instantly have a fun time without the need to read a manual.
Immersion: The games ability to make the player forget that he/she is playing a game. One is grabbed by the story, the atmosphere, etc.
Goal: Well, that is kinda given, I’d say. There are goals to work towards, some higher prioritized than others.

If you read my comment describing my first experience with the Dynamic Event System, you will find that I loved that experience. First of all because of the level of immersion I had to go through. The world drew me in. That is an aspect they need more of.

- If you grind without the level of immersion it grows stale. OK, PvP is kind of the same, but my suggestion would be to make more skills for the players. Not only utility skills but weapon skills that we can swap between. Playing the first Guild Wars, where you could not get out-geared, it was all about making a build to suit your playstyle, and at the same time this build had to work when practiced. That is immersive gameplay for PvP’ers, or at least that is my experience.

This topic’s reison d’étre is to try and pinpoint these out from the experience of the players.
- Wanting to do something is all well and good, and it worked in the first Guild Wars, but I want the game to draw me in more than it does now, and I think everyone would benefit from such changes.

- Appreciate the feedback.

Vorch.2985:

It can be that way if you play the game as a checklist. Granted, there is a title associated with playing the game as a checklist.

But you are right, it can be a bit that way. Imagine if skyrim actually showed you a list of all the quests in the game. That’s how GW2 feels. There’s nothing to really discover because I already know where everything is. There are exciting lore tid bits sprinkled throughout, but the flashing PoIs, Hearts, and other points take away from it.

I think this is one of the things I have been meaning to say.
- The immersion aspect of a game is to go out and discover the world for yourself.
The lore in any game should also draw people in. Guild Wars has a rich lore and a lot of history. Now, I like the task system (heart quests, they call those tasks) but one thing players and the developers have to understand is that the quest-system worked as a storytelling aspect. The tasks does not really cover this aspect, since a village could have several quests, so you would spend a lot of time there, getting acquainted with the place. There is one task in the areas of a zone, so I don’t get immersed into the story of a place as well. Since Guild Wars 2 does not have quests, I expect to find the story telling in the personal storyline. I found it to be a bit disappointing, but I hope to see it improved in later installments of the game.

- Thank you for the reply, Vorch. Very good example.

Sinifair.1026:

It is a question which I would like answered.
- First of all: My personal and overall experience of Guild Wars 2 has been quite good. That being said, I can’t help but feel that it is a grind and here is why:
Each zone has a number of tasks, vistas, points of interest, skill point challenges and waypoints. Find all of these in each zone and you’re done with that particular zone, rendering it, well, useless afterwards.

- There is very little to catch my interest in the zones, because I never really got acquainted with them. By that I mean that in Guild Wars 2 I am always on the go. There is one task in the different areas of the zone, so you’re not spending much time in a village and getting to know the people there or the village itself.

- This basically means that I spend more time trying to locate every task, vista, Skill point challenge, PoI and waypoint in each area, than just enjoying the scenery, because GW2 is fast paced when it comes to world exploration. The player is always on the go, always grinding for something, always working towards a goal.
- I would like to see the game giving players the option of taking it slow and try to relax a little.

- What do you guys think about this? If you take into account what I’ve just said, is there then some things you recognize from it?

tbh there is no grind, because there is nothing to grind for. I don’t want those ugly designed legendaries. I would, if they were better items, but they aren’t.

Vol.5241:

All MMOs are a grind. If you don’t like that, go play an RTS or FPS.

Not entirely true. I would say that ALMOST all MMO’s are a grind. Guild Wars 1 was not a grind. Not for gear or weapons at least. The titles were a grind but in the end they didn’t mean anything other than showing your dedication to the game. In Guild Wars 2 you have to grind or you will be at a disavantage in both PvE and WvWvW. The PvE disadvantage isn’t too noticable but it’s on the fringe. As they introduce more Purples and start scaling the Red gear up, you will see a clear difference in future content. In WvWvW there is a very real and noticable gap.

I just don’t understand what’s stopping the creation of player or guild created content. If the devs give some tools to players, you’d be surprised at what the players can make.

Short answer, yes it has.

Long answer? Yes GW2 has become a grind.

There is one thing that players forget about GW2. Cosmetic grinding is your endgame. So when you hear people say “It’s all cosmetic. You don’t have to do it”, they don’t realize that is what GW2 is. If you are not doing a cosmetic grind, there is nothing to else for you to do.

In other games like WoW for example, you are constantly chasing the next highest stat. Games like that revolve around a stat grind to keep you playing and enjoying the content.

GW2 is the same thing. Except instead of stat grinding, you are cosmetic grinding. It is the only option for you in GW2 (well except for Ascended gear now). Everything in GW2 is a grind for cosmetics. If you aren’t grinding for cosmetics, then there is nothing else in the game to do. Titles, Achievements, World Completion, Crafting, Weapons, Armor, Legendaries, etc etc etc. They are all cosmetic things for you to do.

So when others say “It’s only cosmetic, you don’t have to do it”, they are wrong. The game is based around cosmetics and only cosmetics. If you are not doing that, then you are not doing anything and should just never play GW2.

So currently, yes. GW2 is a grind.

Fractals definitely are, kind of odd that the ascended items are only available here and requires constant ‘grinding’ of the fractals to obtain. Would be good if they dropped elsewhere like from a dragon chest or you could buy them with WvW badges. The badges once u buy ur 1 or 2 pieces of invader items to round out your gear become pointless unless you plan on leveling and gearing other toons.

Anet did a great job of ensuring you do not HAVE to grind (fractals excluded). The only reason you would HAVE to grind is if you WANT a skin. So there is technically no grindfest unless you WANT to LOOK different.

Teenwolf.9174:

no grindfest unless you WANT to LOOK different.

AKA the point of the game…unless you like jumping puzzles, I guess. Or flipping, lots and lots of flipping – spreadsheet heroes.

It is about how you play the game but Anet know that too. When you like to complete maps then there’s your focus. Sadly killing mobs by itself is pointless (poor loot and very little xp). Why that is sad is because for a good amount of people it means that they are not rewarded or there isn’t much incentive to do more than what you do OP.

The world is beautifully crafted as such but I think the mistake they made is that they made too many zones and too many levels. A level cap of 50 and more to do per zone (therefore needing fewer zones), would keep you in a specific zone longer.

So for me, the zones just became about completion and once I did that and all the jump puzzles I didn’t really wanna go through there again with alts. It kinda killed the replay value. And I think this adds to a grindy feel to the world while leveling.

I agree with the other person that the real grind is at level 80 but if grind is linked to repetitiveness I think that’s the feeling I got when leveling and seeing how many zones there still were to go. I was level 80 before I got to Orr anyways, so Orr was just about getting that horrible storyline over with and skipping as much as possible. Completing those zones were a challenge but never would want to go there again.

But if you want a legendary (which will have better stats, not just looks) and the ascended gear with better stats, you will have to grind quite a bit.

Before Nov 15th the game was great, very little apparent grind, yes it was there but it was fun to do, you grind for hours you received the appropriate rewards t6 mats odd piece of gear, Exotics came to everyone, etc.

After Nov 15th Anet has systematically destroyed the rewards people were getting but not addressed the grinds, completely took away any forms of fast rewards and left the game hollow and to be frank tedious and boring..

As well as adding the horribly grindy Fractals of the Mist mechanics..and in only one spot to achieve them..

This has helped make the economy ridiculously over the top with trading post prices souring and only other alternatives are grind for months or buy gems…or leave the game which many are now doing.

Agree with Dante to a point. ANET has done a masterful job of reducing rewards (one actual update that caused worse drop rates said it “fixed” them in favor of the players so take that as you will) and limiting a person’s ability to do what they want for as long as they want. Can anyone still do what they want? Yes. Can they do it for as long as they want? Hell no. The diminishing returns are horrible and punishingly restrictive for people that don’t want to do different dungeons or WvW.

Fractals of the Mist is a hilarious example of ANET completely disregarding their Manifesto and trying to side-step it by saying “Oh, we didn’t mean it would NEVER happen.” Nope, apparently they meant when it did happen it would be the most functionally accurate description of “grind” in my recent memory of video games.

So is there grinding in the game? Yes. A lot of it comes from player mindset and to that I’ve always said “it’s you, not the game.” The game doesn’t inherently have a grind. It has a few long-term goals. Reach level 80. Get a Legendary item. Get multiple Legendary items. Get top-tier ascended gear. But the gameplay doesn’t pressure the player to get them the way it does in say… World of Warcraft. We are not being introduced to successively higher-numbers-required content, we are just being given items with marginally higher numbers seemingly for the hell of it (or perhaps to preface a genuine Difficulty Level implementation in the far future, who knows). Top that off with the Free To Play after your initial purchase and you have the freedom to do whatever, whenever you feel like with no pressure from an ever-increasing threshold of “required numbers” nagging at the back of your mind that you need to do it now now now.

Is the game itself a grind? It’s all comparative. I would say this game (barring Fractals) is the least grind-y MMO on the market and that there’s no subscription or Pay To Win options keeps it from feeling like a grind to me. I’ve played other Free To Play games that do have pay to win options, Free To Play games that are genuinely just free with no purchase required and subscription-based games (all of these refer to MMOs, for clarity). In every other one of these games it feels like I am pressured by the gameplay to grind things out. Sometimes it’s a player-driven game and I need to grind to be invited to things because otherwise I can’t contribute enough to be relevant. Sometimes it’s a tier-based game and I need to grind to keep up with the current tier or end up struggling with previous or side-content with the few people still doing it until I can get to the current tier. Sometimes it’s just a poorly designed game and there’s no way to play without grinding for countless hours or paying for items to be relevant. Guild Wars 2 does not make me feel like I’m grinding the way these other games do so personally I believe the game is not a grind.

Really though, the things ANET has done to boost their Gem Store sales has definitely been a step in the direction of causing the grind mindset. It’s still nowhere near as grindy as those other games I talked about, but I can see how some people might see it if they play it like a subscription-based game.

Players and developers need to know the rpg meaning of “grind”.

Grinding = Repetitive content + Boredom

Addiction = Repetitive content + Anticipation + Fun

GW2 has never been a good mmorpg in this department.
I’m sure players can see that GW2 end-game is more of a grind than addiction because you don’t anticipate it. This is why it’s never fun. In previous made mmorpgs, you can see that you repeat content for a reason. There’s a strong lure which made you feel ancipated to repeat contents to achieve it. This is what made mmorpgs fun.

If you don’t find it fun to repeat contents in traditional rpgs, you’re not RPG-favored players. RPGs has always been about repeating contents and back-tracking to make the food [rewards] taste more delicious. If not, it’s basically an ordinary adventure-genred game like Assassin Creed, Tomb Raider and Ninja Gaiden but with multi-player option.

Yeah, those are games but all with different genres.
RPG and adventure games are different for many reasons.

In adventure games like assassin creed and ninja gaiden, you still role-play as the character. There is still a back story behind the game. However, it can never be called a RPG genred game. It’s just like GW2. You still role-play and there’s a story… but it can never be called a mmorpg genre.

In RPG, you submerge yourself into the character. You’re dedicated towards your character. Time dedication gives the best rewards. There’s always a strong carrot after another carrot. It has a reflection of reality. You always have a new goal after another goal. There’s a “world” and “human emotions” that functions like reality in RPG. That is the mechanic of RPG since it was born in Japan. This is why western RPGs can never beat J-RPGs. Westerners doesn’t appreciate rpgs and the devs made rpg-genres into some kind of adventure-genred games that has little to none rpg elements.

Naoko.7096:

I’m sure players can see that GW2 end-game is more of a grind than addiction because you don’t anticipate it. This is why it’s never fun. In previous made mmorpgs, you can see that you repeat content for a reason. There’s a strong lure which made you feel ancipated to repeat contents to achieve it. This is what made mmorpgs fun.

Just this first bit right here. In GW2 there is still a reason to repeat content. The reason just isn’t an eternal ladder of progression to mask the grind. The reason is because you enjoy it or you like how the armor you can get out of it looks. You don’t need any of it, it’s just there for your enjoyment.

And here’s the misunderstanding of Grind and Addiction you’ve got going on.

Addiction shouldn’t even be mentioned here. There is no “bad thing + arguably good thing + good thing” to equate addiction to. It is a physical urge to do whatever you are doing whether you want to or not. Addictions are never good no matter how they are rationalized. For the record, yes people can be addicted to video games and yes it is still a bad thing no matter how much you enjoy it (drug addicts start out enjoying it too). That’s why World of Warcraft’s loading screens always remind players to get the hell out of the house once in a while. I’ve been addicted to World of Warcraft. When I quit there were withdrawals. Nothing as serious as heavy drug addiction, but it happened. When I stepped away I realized “oh, I wasn’t having that much fun constantly grinding anyway,” somewhat similar to a lot of drug addicts who after quitting and recovering go “oh, that was some really terrible stuff I kept doing.” Addiction is bad. End of story.

Grinding. Grinding doesn’t have to cause boredom to be grinding. All it has to be is the repetition of the same task. Can that happen in GW2? Absolutely. The token requirements for dungeon armor are pretty dang high and the same goes for WvW armor. If you really want that type of thing to the point that you want to just grind that out, go for it. You don’t have to. You can take it in small doses and slowly work toward it, but let’s be real here- how many MMO players know how to moderate progress like that? The answer: most of the people that come to GW2’s defense and say there’s little to no grind in it (not counting Fractals). The result is that people choose to grind without realizing they don’t have to. There’s no driving force telling you to grind. There’s no threat from the gameplay that you won’t be able to do the content if you don’t get what you want within a certain period of time. It’s all for the player’s own enjoyment. Take it at a pace that’s comfortable, not the pace you would with a game that’s pushing you to do it. More personal experience incoming: I love love love the Honor of the Waves heavy armor. It is WONDERFUL. Does it have better stats than anything else? Nope. Does it look absolutely awesome? Hell yes it does. Did I grind that dungeon as much as I possibly could as quickly as I possibly could? You bet your sweet Kitten I did. I enjoyed the hell out of every run of that dungeon. So if Grinding = Repetition + Boredom… I guess I wasn’t grinding by that logic. But if someone asked me if I chose to grind that dungeon ASAP to get the armor I wanted I would tell them hell yes I did AND LOOK HOW AWESOME THIS ARMOR IS I LOOK SO GOOD. I mean, why wouldn’t I say I had to grind the dungeon just because I enjoyed it?

The carrot on a stick that keeps moving out of reach? It doesn’t add enjoyment. It’s a clever method to make players feel like they’re progressing. It is a false sense of satisfaction. The goal isn’t “new.” The goal has a different name. The goal’s name is “Ragnaros” or “Illidan” or “Arthas” or “Deathwing.” The goal itself is still [grind higher level items to kill higher level bosses]. It never changes. You are never presented with a new scenario, simply new locales to do it in. Guild Wars 2 pretty effectively kicked that crap out of their game until they introduced a ‘Progression Lite’ with the Fractals. Non-MMO roleplaying games that you mention do not have this carrot being endlessly extended in front of you. Keep in mind I’m talking purely from a gameplay perspective. By taking away the gameplay-induced necessity to grind and moving the goal from an enemy to an item Guild Wars 2 makes the carrot reachable. Once you have your carrot it isn’t going to become irrelevant.

tl;dr – Almost every game has grinding. In most MMOs the grind is necessary. In Guild Wars 2 the grind is up to the player and the rewards are almost purely aesthetic and will never become irrelevant. Barring Fractals.

Its only a grind if you make it a grind. Whenever i try to level up because i want to it becomes boring. If i dont care if im leveling and focuse on the fun around me ill level up and have twice as fun.

GW2 is a grind since the beggining as any other standard MMO. It is just easier to see that because GW2 lacks content. Fractals are just the cherry on top of the pie. In GW you grinded to try to get a rare skin with good stats. In GW2 you just get your standard tokes to trade for standard stuff. Have been working for WoW for years.

Grind is a matter of personal opinion.

If you want your character to be the best he has to be, you have to do fractals and level to 80 using dynamic events and heart.s

If you enjoy doing these activities, it is not a grind, it is an addiction.

if you do not, then yes – you are grinding.

Most themepark MMO’s want their players to be addicted, it is in my personal opinion ANet has missed that mark by quite a large margin with this game.

I thought in the “Manifesto” there was not going to be a grind..?

I understand a small amount..its common in any game (most)

But GW2 turns into a massive grind…something you would have not expected if you had watched their manifesto video…

Archmortal.1027:

Addiction shouldn’t even be mentioned here. There is no “bad thing + arguably good thing + good thing” to equate addiction to. It is a physical urge to do whatever you are doing whether you want to or not. Addictions are never good no matter how they are rationalized. For the record, yes people can be addicted to video games and yes it is still a bad thing no matter how much you enjoy it (drug addicts start out enjoying it too). That’s why World of Warcraft’s loading screens always remind players to get the hell out of the house once in a while. I’ve been addicted to World of Warcraft. When I quit there were withdrawals. Nothing as serious as heavy drug addiction, but it happened. When I stepped away I realized “oh, I wasn’t having that much fun constantly grinding anyway,” somewhat similar to a lot of drug addicts who after quitting and recovering go “oh, that was some really terrible stuff I kept doing.” Addiction is bad. End of story.

Addiction is neccessary for people to have fun. If addiction is “bad”, there’s no such things as hobbies. People who have hobbies are addicted towards something they love and dedicated. It brings about strong interests.

Games in the 90s like pacman and tetris are fun in those era. It’s because they’re addictive and worth repeating for. Those are the games that made an impression and last for a long time. Without being pulled in, people grow boredom towards the game.

You shouldn’t link drugs to games and hobbies. Drugs and smokings are bad because they are unhealthy and destroy human lives. Games and hobbies addictions are something that give you leisures and entertainment.

This applies to TV shows. Good tv dramas and animes are those that make viewers feel anticipated after every episodes. Viewers feel eager to know the plot of the next episodes. If tv shows doesn’t make viewers anticipated, they would fall asleep while watching. A non-anticipating (no-carrot) drama would make viewers feel like they don’t feel like watching the next episode, skipping the whole series together. This is something which needs to be considered during production.

This is why “grinding” only forms in mmorpg if players are bored repeating contents. The pulling element is neccessary for people not to see it as “grinding”. If players have fun repeating and stay anticipated in the rewards, it’s no longer a grind.

Has Guild Wars 2 become a grind?

Yes.

Daily’s are a grind (2, normal, pvp).

Monthly’s are a grind (2).

Fractals are a grind, repeat same content over and over again just to get to a higher level, forced to do it because it is only source of asended gear.

All dungeons are a grind, repeat same dungeons to collect different tokens, forced to do at least 2 dungeons over and over again, once for the stats you want and once for the look.

Legendary, grind, grind and grind abit more. People with legendarys make me laugh, just say no-lifers to me…

My grinding days are long gone, its a cheap, outdated game mechanic, lifes too short, I won’t be suckered in…

I have clocked 450 hours up, had alot of fun playing GW2 but now I will just play the new monthly events, probably any new future expansions (if they contain enough to interest me) and be happy with that.

Naoko.7096:

Addiction is neccessary for people to have fun. If addiction is “bad”, there’s no such things as hobbies. People who have hobbies are addicted towards something they love and dedicated. It brings about strong interests.

This is such an offensively misunderstood notion of what addiction is that I strongly urge you to look at the definition in the dictionary and then go ask a medical doctor, a physician, a rehabilitation therapist, a psychiatrist and a psychological analyst what addiction means. Not one of them will tell you that it is necessary to have fun, nor that hobbies necessitate addiction in order for said hobby to qualify as a hobby. Seriously, go ask each and every one of them simply because I think you will take their word more seriously than mine.

Games in the 90s like pacman and tetris are fun in those era. It’s because they’re addictive and worth repeating for. Those are the games that made an impression and last for a long time. Without being pulled in, people grow boredom towards the game.

They were games that made an impression because they were some of the first mainstream games that masses of people were exposed to. When video games were first made they almost literally blew people’s minds. And yes, they were addictive. Is it good that people had a ton of fun with them? Sure. Is it good if they became addicted? Still no. Addiction is bad.

You shouldn’t link drugs to games and hobbies. Drugs and smokings are bad because they are unhealthy and destroy human lives. Games and hobbies addictions are something that give you leisures and entertainment.

Again, offensive misunderstanding of what addiction is. Look it up.

This applies to TV shows. Good tv dramas and animes are those that make viewers feel anticipated after every episodes. Viewers feel eager to know the plot of the next episodes. If tv shows doesn’t make viewers anticipated, they would fall asleep while watching. A non-anticipating (no-carrot) drama would make viewers feel like they don’t feel like watching the next episode, skipping the whole series together. This is something which needs to be considered during production.

Anticipation is not addiction. Anticipation is a tool every form of episodic media needs to employ in order to ensure they get the expected number of viewers to watch/continue watching/tune in. It’s also a tool good writers in any media, directors and game developers need to use to get news and hype generated before their product is ready to sell. If the consumers are anticipating a product eagerly sales go way up… how did we even get to anticipation? This has nothing to do with the points I made.

This is why “grinding” only forms in mmorpg if players are bored repeating contents. The pulling element is neccessary for people not to see it as “grinding”. If players have fun repeating and stay anticipated in the rewards, it’s no longer a grind.

You’ve lost me here. This does not connect to any of the previous thoughts in your post at all. You didn’t address that I still did a ton of grinding in HotW to get the armor set ASAP even though I had fun doing it. Why is repetition magically not grinding just because a person isn’t bored doing it? Content doesn’t evolve into grinding the more it’s done. It either is or isn’t grinding based on what the player needs to do (most MMOs) or how the player approaches their goals (GW2). If players are repeating a task to get a certain thing after a certain number of successive repetitions it is still grinding regardless of how enjoyable or boring the activity is. That’s why the common defense of grinding in GW2 is “try doing something else.”

Vorch.2985:

It can be that way if you play the game as a checklist. Granted, there is a title associated with playing the game as a checklist.

Moreover: the game encourages check-list playing, which imo includes special drops and rewards that for many players seem to be the only motivation why they play any particular content in the first place.

Hopefully jan-mar will begin to fix it

It seems to be so integral to the gameplay, i highly doubt such a fundamental change will be implemented mid-flight. Maybe in GW3.

As much as I’d like to hope otherwise, I think MMOs inevitably devolve into grinds. A subscription-based MMO has an incentive to extend your playtime over months and years, so they tend so slow down progress because the alternative is to continually pump out enormous amounts of new content to stave off grinding (or leaving) for the leading edge players. A non-subscription MMO with a cash shop has an incentive to make some elements of the game tedious or less satisfying in order to prompt people to buy items that help speed or spruce things up.

Having cut my MMO teeth in the original Everquest, I have a higher tolerance for grind than some might, but after so many years and so many MMOs, I am tiring of the same pattern over and over and wondering if anyone will break the mold. The higher you get in a game, the more things slow down and the more chance your progress will be reversed by a lazy reduction in supposedly overpowered skills or traits (usually deemed a problem in one particular arena like PvP but the reduction unfairly having a strong impact also in PvE).

One good thing about GW2 is the multitude of things to do. If one or two of those things seem especially grindy to you, you can shift your focus to the others. Granted, this doesn’t always satisfy if you still have a desire to improve your gear, because too often the avenues of real progress get shoehorned into highly controlled venues that tend to be very repetitive.

Theplayboy.6417:

Vol.5241:

All MMOs are a grind. If you don’t like that, go play an RTS or FPS.

Not entirely true. I would say that ALMOST all MMO’s are a grind. Guild Wars 1 was not a grind. Not for gear or weapons at least. The titles were a grind but in the end they didn’t mean anything other than showing your dedication to the game. In Guild Wars 2 you have to grind or you will be at a disavantage in both PvE and WvWvW. The PvE disadvantage isn’t too noticable but it’s on the fringe. As they introduce more Purples and start scaling the Red gear up, you will see a clear difference in future content. In WvWvW there is a very real and noticable gap.

Gw1 is not an MMO… I’d say: Every MMO has offers grind but only a few don’t require grind to play all of the non-grind-content.

@Archmortal, your posts are too long for a casual discussion.

I don’t have to ask those experts to know what an addiction is. Addictive games give withdrawals. Withdrawals are something that give interests. Strong interests that make us want to play the game no matter what during our free time. You look forward to play after you came back from work. Something that have a seat in our minds even when we’re doing something else. The eagerness and anticipation to play once we get home.

It’s only harmful if the player has a weak mind. That’s only the minority. I’m sure many adults are able to prioritise their life.

I’m talking “addiction” in a “gaming term” here. As long as it’s addictive, it’s fun. People play video games to pass by their leisure time right? If it pulls us, then there’s nothing harmful about it. If it doesn’t pulls us, then we get sleepy while playing it. Like now. I can’t even stand few minutes of gameplay when I logged in GW2. I always ended up listening youtube videos instead of being in the game.

You’ve lost me here. This does not connect to any of the previous thoughts in your post at all. You didn’t address that I still did a ton of grinding in HotW to get the armor set ASAP even though I had fun doing it. Why is repetition magically not grinding just because a person isn’t bored doing it? Content doesn’t evolve into grinding the more it’s done. It either is or isn’t grinding based on what the player needs to do (most MMOs) or how the player approaches their goals (GW2). If players are repeating a task to get a certain thing after a certain number of successive repetitions it is still grinding regardless of how enjoyable or boring the activity is. That’s why the common defense of grinding in GW2 is “try doing something else.”

It looks like different people has different definition of “grind”. If you have fun repeating HoTW, it’s not a grind anymore. You have interests repeating it because there’s a carrot for you to get the full set. You’re anticipating the full set of armor. (It’s not a carrot for me because beauty is in the eye of the beholder for cosmetic armors.) If HoTW gives armor set look that you dislike, would you still be able to repeat the content?

The reason why I don’t call “repeating content + fun = not a grind” is because in games where players repeat rounds and contents while having fun, you don’t see them saying it’s a grind. Remember our tetris and pacman? Also any console games with New Game+. People repeat them, yet they never complaint it’s a grind. It’s only a grind if players feel bored out of repeating content. If it doesn’t bore the players, it’s not a grind. The players are basically just having fun playing it.

Ok, for all of you guys out there saying that the game is of course a grind, let me ask my question differently.
Does Guild Wars 2 FEEL like a grind?

- Of course there has to be some content, and levelling up is part of it as always in the MMO genre, and that is a feature considered a grind.
- My point was ANet did not WANT the game to feel like a grind but does it, and why?

I hope this will lead some of you guys in the right direction as to the answers I am looking for.

Sinifair.1026:

It is a question which I would like answered.
- First of all: My personal and overall experience of Guild Wars 2 has been quite good. That being said, I can’t help but feel that it is a grind and here is why:
Each zone has a number of tasks, vistas, points of interest, skill point challenges and waypoints. Find all of these in each zone and you’re done with that particular zone, rendering it, well, useless afterwards.

- There is very little to catch my interest in the zones, because I never really got acquainted with them. By that I mean that in Guild Wars 2 I am always on the go. There is one task in the different areas of the zone, so you’re not spending much time in a village and getting to know the people there or the village itself.

- This basically means that I spend more time trying to locate every task, vista, Skill point challenge, PoI and waypoint in each area, than just enjoying the scenery, because GW2 is fast paced when it comes to world exploration. The player is always on the go, always grinding for something, always working towards a goal.
- I would like to see the game giving players the option of taking it slow and try to relax a little.

- What do you guys think about this? If you take into account what I’ve just said, is there then some things you recognize from it?

I got 1200 hours in without grinding, and I can say for a fact that GW2 never -requires- you to grind at least for your “needs”, as for “wants” mine didn’t require any (most of them were karma rewards) but that depends on the player and his approach to gaming.

You are free to decide if you want to slowly work toward a “want” through playing the game normally for fun and accumulating the required wealth over time, or be an OCD person and play 25 hours a day the same content.
GW2 allows both (although it rewards more a varied and healthy gameplay over obsessive unhealthy behaviors, infact the more you repeat content the less rewards you get), but the player has the final say on whether he wants to grind or not.

There is nothing in your original post that sounds even remotely like grinding. You describe moving from place to place, doing heart quests, exploring, and having goals to work towards. Do you know what grinding is? Grinding is having to repeatedly do the same things over and over, basically performing monotonous tasks as your main method of advancement. You don’t have to collect 30 boar tusks, nor do max level characters grind to increase Reputation with various factions through repetitive “daily quests” aka chores.

You get XP for everything in GW2. You can explore, do hearts, participate in dynamic events, craft, do personal story — and in the course of that, you’ll undoubtedly complete your daily achievements which provide a big boost to XP as well. If you do all those things, you will quickly find yourself overlevelled before you complete a zone.

Grinding for Legendaries, dungeon tokens, ascended gear exists — but it’s far from necessary, and serves no purpose other than to just be there as an option. People who undertake that stuff have chosen to do so, and if they don’t like it they can stop doing it and not miss out on anything else.

Sinifair.1026:

Ok, for all of you guys out there saying that the game is of course a grind, let me ask my question differently.
Does Guild Wars 2 FEEL like a grind?

- Of course there has to be some content, and levelling up is part of it as always in the MMO genre, and that is a feature considered a grind.
- My point was ANet did not WANT the game to feel like a grind but does it, and why?

I hope this will lead some of you guys in the right direction as to the answers I am looking for.

If you’re trying to vertically progress in the game through gear, then yes, this game feels like a massive grind.

Acquiring any type of currency in this game is a massive grind. I started running the karma train in Straits of Devastation. There are 7 stops on the route. You get about 350 karma for completing each stop. Each run lasts about 20 mins with a 5 min break in between each run. So thats 25 mins for about 2500 karma. A full set of 42k karma gear (no weapons or jewelry) is 252K. That’s around 100 ktrain runs at 25 mins per run. It will take around 40 hours of grinding karma to get the set of 6 exotics. That’s one hell of a grind by my standards.

You need to find the right balance between grind and reward. Grinding can be fun if you know that you are aspiring to something usefull – otherwise you’re just doing it because you have to (be the best).

You get 10 marks (currently for me) from fractals, you need 1350 to buy an item.

In order to get exotic gear kitted out, pre-gems, you need to run the same dungeons over and over as they are gotten with tokens instead of as drops.

Right now I have done the math. Even if I grind my way to around 3 gold every single day, it will take 4 months at least to get my legendary, which is in addition to grinding 1 million karma for it and the diminishing returns on loot and karma making the grind even longer than in other games as you cannot farm gold properly without forced breaks and everything past a certain point is centered around gold.

The crafting resources for items once at max level have extremely low drop rates, only spawn every few days, or force you into buying them with gold, which runs into the problem outlined above.

GW2 is currently one of the most grindy MMO’s I have ever played almost completely regardless of which field you decide to focus on, and unlike those games, GW2 artificially prolongs the grind with the idiotic diminishing returns that only work to hurt players and force them to pour even more time into it.

Right now, sadly, GW2 focuses more on pure grind and time for rewards as opposed to rewarding people for overcoming something difficult.

I think it has more to do with GW2’s reduced complexity and boring PvE. I had to “grind” for my set of obsidian armor in GW1 by doing FOW/UW and running the Shiverpeaks but it was fun and challenging and didn’t feel like “grind”.

some people need to grind, but not much!
GW2 find the balance between vertical and horizontal progression.

Yes it is a grind if you actually want to have goals at endgame beyond simply playing the game.

The game has certainly taken a lurch into territory I never planned on buying into pre-launch with fractals. had I known it was in the plan I might have considered passing on the game, which would have been a shame because GW2 really is a good game.

But it’s no biggie, not really. It’s still far less grindy than most.

Yes.

Ever since the incredibly massive nerf to open world drops (Nov 15th patch) and the addition of super-grind Ascended gear from FotM, the entire game is designed around super hardcore dungeon grinding to the exclusion of all else.

It’s a great example of what happens when a company sells out all of the design principles of the game and completely destroys it in the name of pushing people to buy more gems.

I have trouble considering completing skill points, dynamic events, and vistas a grind. I’d think of that more as…hmm…playing the game?

The only real grind is if you want a full set of dungeon armor, and want to do that in a short period of time. Running the same paths over and over feels grindy to me.

It’d be nice if rewards from running around killing stuff in the open world was as good as dungeons, but alas, not anymore.