Guild Wars 2

Neoheart.2750:

ESO will have it’s own following and fanbase etc but it’s not that one that Anet have to worry about. Its Wildstar.

Wildstar seems to be WoW 2.00 .. so it will maybe attract those players that want to have an everlasting raid-grind for item progression. I can’t say i would be too unlucky if we loose maybe some of those players that are responsible for ascended items.

Beldin.5498:

Wildstar seems to be WoW 2.00 .. so it will maybe attract those players that want to have an everlasting raid-grind for item progression. I can’t say i would be too unlucky if we loose maybe some of those players that are responsible for ascended items.

I don’t know why people keep saying this when it seems to me Wildstar has a much in common with GW2 as it does WoW. But even if it is just a WoW clone, it’s something else. It’s new. It’s fresh. After 1.5 years of very few permanent changes, you know what GW2 is? Stale. Stagnant.

Wildstar is overrated.
Just because someone likes it, doesn’t mean everyone will :|

I’ve sworn to myself after leaving RIFT that i will never again play a raid centric game where you are always just a second class player if it comes to items, so just for that reason alone Wildstar is simply a no-go for me. And of course i don’t want to get eye-cancer

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Galen Grey.4709:

Nick.6972:

Perhaps there’s nothing major to look forward to in 2014?

doubtful, there are the at least the so far elusive big projects referenced here:

from the long lost past of june 2013
http://www.guildwars2hub.com/features/interviews/colin-johanson-interview-looking-ahead

“we have some longer term projects some teams are working on the background, that we’re not going into detail about yet, we want people to know that new regions and dragons are all things we plan to do but its not something we’ll be releasing this year. "

and reiterated about here in the more recent january 2014:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-01-14-you-thought-that-was-it-for-guild-wars-2

“also as some of the really big projects we’re working on in the background come to fruition, we’re going to see a spike again in users.”

Those “big projects” have been referenced over and over again for the past 17 months. They are meaningless marketing hype. I don’t even believe they have these mystical teams they talk about. There are 4 LS teams and that’s pretty much it, I have 17 months of releases to back up that statement…. talk is cheap.

Edge of the Mists wasn’t done by a living world team. It’s a major major update. It’s a new relatively large map. Guess you’re only seeing what you choose to see.

darkace.8925:

Beldin.5498:

Wildstar seems to be WoW 2.00 .. so it will maybe attract those players that want to have an everlasting raid-grind for item progression. I can’t say i would be too unlucky if we loose maybe some of those players that are responsible for ascended items.

I don’t know why people keep saying this when it seems to me Wildstar has a much in common with GW2 as it does WoW. But even if it is just a WoW clone, it’s something else. It’s new. It’s fresh. After 1.5 years of very few permanent changes, you know what GW2 is? Stale. Stagnant.

It’s a raiding game. That’s what it will end up focused on, mark my words. Raiding games always end up focused on raids, in PvE at least.

Azreell.1568:

GW2 hasn’t changed very much in over a year. Minimum lack luster updates at best.

If you count the LS – please read no further and it would be an exercise in futility.

Looking Objectively as both games as I have played both quite a bit (Wildstar and GW2) I will tell you this.

Wildstar is what I thought GW2 was going to end up being. I was well aware gw2 would never be gw1 but I had hope at least it would evolve into something great and a hybrid of the current mmorpg style. In didn’t end up that way.

Wildstar is heavily based on GW2 combat but it actually takes it one step further in terms of depth. Combat pve wise in Wildstar blows GW2 out of the water. There is no stack in a corner and win. Or zerg farm everything and win. There are actual tactics and strategy to encounters both solo and group.

One thing I have learned from GW2 is that without a Trinity games end up lacking strategy and combat depth and become nothing more the zerg dps something down. Wildstars trinity is an interesting twist on something many of us have come to love. It brings a new perspective on an old ideal.

If you are a solo player Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a raider Wildstar has content for you.
If you are crafter Wildstar has content for you.
If you are into player housing wildstar has content for you.
If you are into exploring Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a PvPer Wildstar has content for you.

The game is shipping with more content then we have GW2 a year later. Something has to be said about that.

It seems that Wildstar is everything that GW2 isn’t. I hear that it even has a fully fleshed out GvG system, multiple PvP modes, alternative style dungeons called adventures and even more customization than GW2.

I haven’t gotten into the beta yet, but everything I’ve heard sounds like what GW2 should have been.

As a 2nd note, you guys should stop writing WoW this WoW that.
WoW wasn’t the 1st mmo, and is a copy of previous MMOs as well.

WoW is just a copycat of Ultima Online and EverQuest and many other famous titles like Lineage ][, Phantasy Star Online and FF XI.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Azreell.1568:

GW2 hasn’t changed very much in over a year. Minimum lack luster updates at best.

If you count the LS – please read no further and it would be an exercise in futility.

Looking Objectively as both games as I have played both quite a bit (Wildstar and GW2) I will tell you this.

Wildstar is what I thought GW2 was going to end up being. I was well aware gw2 would never be gw1 but I had hope at least it would evolve into something great and a hybrid of the current mmorpg style. In didn’t end up that way.

Wildstar is heavily based on GW2 combat but it actually takes it one step further in terms of depth. Combat pve wise in Wildstar blows GW2 out of the water. There is no stack in a corner and win. Or zerg farm everything and win. There are actual tactics and strategy to encounters both solo and group.

One thing I have learned from GW2 is that without a Trinity games end up lacking strategy and combat depth and become nothing more the zerg dps something down. Wildstars trinity is an interesting twist on something many of us have come to love. It brings a new perspective on an old ideal.

If you are a solo player Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a raider Wildstar has content for you.
If you are crafter Wildstar has content for you.
If you are into player housing wildstar has content for you.
If you are into exploring Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a PvPer Wildstar has content for you.

The game is shipping with more content then we have GW2 a year later. Something has to be said about that.

It seems that Wildstar is everything that GW2 isn’t. I hear that it even has a fully fleshed out GvG system, multiple PvP modes, alternative style dungeons called adventures and even more customization than GW2.

I haven’t gotten into the beta yet, but everything I’ve heard sounds like what GW2 should have been.

Yes.

My feelings are Turbine pulled an original blizzard north move from 10 yrs ago when wow first released.

Turbine has taken all the good aspects from it’s competition and put them in one package while improving them and removing as much as possible the bad ideas that are currently being used in other games.

It’s the polar opposite of GW2 in terms of ideals while being very similar in other ways.

GW2 Tried far to hard to be different and ended up alienating to many good systems used in other games and it’s suffering for that now. GW2 is not sure what it wants to be and until it decides the players will continue to be confused.

Wildstar is very sure of what it is and what it want to do. It’s not reinventing the wheel. It’s oiling it and giving us a fresh perspective on things many of us love.

A lot of resources from GW2 are being or have been moved to Wildstar. NcSoft has readily admitted that.

If one thing this year playing GW2 has taught me it’s that different isn’t always better.

Azreell.1568:

One thing I have learned from GW2 is that without a Trinity games end up lacking strategy and combat depth and become nothing more the zerg dps something down. Wildstars trinity is an interesting twist on something many of us have come to love. It brings a new perspective on an old ideal.

If you are a solo player Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a raider Wildstar has content for you.
If you are crafter Wildstar has content for you.
If you are into player housing wildstar has content for you.
If you are into exploring Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a PvPer Wildstar has content for you.

Games really don’t need a trinity. In fact, the trinity is detrimental to the depth of build making and combat.

If I’m the DPS and only the DPS I don’t need to consider the ability to take aggro or healing because that’s not my job. That forces my build to be very linear.

When I’m fighting as a DPS, my almost only focus is doing as much damage as possible, therefore there’s a limited amount of mechanics I can be exposed to, because otherwise it’d be throwing a curveball at me.

I like how the current LA event’s concept. There’s so much crud flying around and so many enemies you will take aggro and damage, whilst you need to kill enemies fast. I potentially have to consider quite a few things in my build, making it interesting. Now realistically it isn’t quite as interesting because the event has now moved away form actually trying to complete the events to basically zerging up and farming the heck out of it, but the idea is much more interesting than if I just had to go and spec for DPS.

On your second point, you could say that about any game that was designed to actually stay off life-support for a few years. Just because it has them doesn’t mean its going to be done well.

The problem I got with Wildstar is that it doesn;t have anything unique about it. It seems to be trying very hard to be like vanilla WoW. Aside from the fact that games that tried to compete with WoW on its own turf generally got torn apart historically, I question why I should play this when I got WoW, which has been around longer, has more budget behind it, and has a much more established lore to put all that content into context? I can’t, especially when this seems to be a case of literally trying to out-WoW WoW.

Sure, it has a few little extras like double-jumping but none of that is game changing, because none of those things really matter that much in the type of game WS is.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Azreell.1568:

One thing I have learned from GW2 is that without a Trinity games end up lacking strategy and combat depth and become nothing more the zerg dps something down. Wildstars trinity is an interesting twist on something many of us have come to love. It brings a new perspective on an old ideal.

If you are a solo player Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a raider Wildstar has content for you.
If you are crafter Wildstar has content for you.
If you are into player housing wildstar has content for you.
If you are into exploring Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a PvPer Wildstar has content for you.

Games really don’t need a trinity. In fact, the trinity is detrimental to the depth of build making and combat.

If I’m the DPS and only the DPS I don’t need to consider the ability to take aggro or healing because that’s not my job. That forces my build to be very linear.

When I’m fighting as a DPS, my almost only focus is doing as much damage as possible, therefore there’s a limited amount of mechanics I can be exposed to, because otherwise it’d be throwing a curveball at me.

I like how the current LA event’s concept. There’s so much crud flying around and so many enemies you will take aggro and damage, whilst you need to kill enemies fast. I potentially have to consider quite a few things in my build, making it interesting. Now realistically it isn’t quite as interesting because the event has now moved away form actually trying to complete the events to basically zerging up and farming the heck out of it, but the idea is much more interesting than if I just had to go and spec for DPS.

On your second point, you could say that about any game that was designed to actually stay off life-support for a few years. Just because it has them doesn’t mean its going to be done well.

I could not disagree with you more.

And in fairness I think GW2 has proven the lack of a trinity – while , convenient for some is about as shallow as you can get.

Also the lack of a trinity means DPS is the only stat that matters which yields poor content design, poor gear choice selection, poor build selection and poor programmed AI.

All these things are apparent in GW2 at this time.

Azreell.1568:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Azreell.1568:

One thing I have learned from GW2 is that without a Trinity games end up lacking strategy and combat depth and become nothing more the zerg dps something down. Wildstars trinity is an interesting twist on something many of us have come to love. It brings a new perspective on an old ideal.

If you are a solo player Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a raider Wildstar has content for you.
If you are crafter Wildstar has content for you.
If you are into player housing wildstar has content for you.
If you are into exploring Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a PvPer Wildstar has content for you.

Games really don’t need a trinity. In fact, the trinity is detrimental to the depth of build making and combat.

If I’m the DPS and only the DPS I don’t need to consider the ability to take aggro or healing because that’s not my job. That forces my build to be very linear.

When I’m fighting as a DPS, my almost only focus is doing as much damage as possible, therefore there’s a limited amount of mechanics I can be exposed to, because otherwise it’d be throwing a curveball at me.

I like how the current LA event’s concept. There’s so much crud flying around and so many enemies you will take aggro and damage, whilst you need to kill enemies fast. I potentially have to consider quite a few things in my build, making it interesting. Now realistically it isn’t quite as interesting because the event has now moved away form actually trying to complete the events to basically zerging up and farming the heck out of it, but the idea is much more interesting than if I just had to go and spec for DPS.

On your second point, you could say that about any game that was designed to actually stay off life-support for a few years. Just because it has them doesn’t mean its going to be done well.

I could not disagree with you more.

And in fairness I think GW2 has proven the lack of a trinity – while , convenient for some is about as shallow as you can get.

Also the lack of a trinity means DPS is the only stat that matters which yields poor content design, poor gear choice selection, poor build selection and poor programmed AI.

All these things are apparent in GW2 at this time.

Do you remember how the trinity was in early games? It sucked. It was all tank and spank.

Guild Wars 2 is doing something relatively new. Until developers learn what can and can’t be done with that relatively new system, it will seem shallow.

The encounters ARE improving if you’ve paid attention. Most dungeons sort of suck but I’m pretty sure that dungeons like the new TA path are much better than the original ones.

Three, four years from now, the time it really takes devs to learn a new system, the stuff coming out will be much better.

Saying a new system not being very good is not working is probably a gross overstatement.

Azreell.1568:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Azreell.1568:

One thing I have learned from GW2 is that without a Trinity games end up lacking strategy and combat depth and become nothing more the zerg dps something down. Wildstars trinity is an interesting twist on something many of us have come to love. It brings a new perspective on an old ideal.

If you are a solo player Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a raider Wildstar has content for you.
If you are crafter Wildstar has content for you.
If you are into player housing wildstar has content for you.
If you are into exploring Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a PvPer Wildstar has content for you.

Games really don’t need a trinity. In fact, the trinity is detrimental to the depth of build making and combat.

If I’m the DPS and only the DPS I don’t need to consider the ability to take aggro or healing because that’s not my job. That forces my build to be very linear.

When I’m fighting as a DPS, my almost only focus is doing as much damage as possible, therefore there’s a limited amount of mechanics I can be exposed to, because otherwise it’d be throwing a curveball at me.

I like how the current LA event’s concept. There’s so much crud flying around and so many enemies you will take aggro and damage, whilst you need to kill enemies fast. I potentially have to consider quite a few things in my build, making it interesting. Now realistically it isn’t quite as interesting because the event has now moved away form actually trying to complete the events to basically zerging up and farming the heck out of it, but the idea is much more interesting than if I just had to go and spec for DPS.

On your second point, you could say that about any game that was designed to actually stay off life-support for a few years. Just because it has them doesn’t mean its going to be done well.

I could not disagree with you more.

And in fairness I think GW2 has proven the lack of a trinity – while , convenient for some is about as shallow as you can get.

Also the lack of a trinity means DPS is the only stat that matters which yields poor content design, poor gear choice selection, poor build selection and poor programmed AI.

All these things are apparent in GW2 at this time.

I’ll put it into a bit more context then. I went into LA first as my usual full zerk DPS Guardian. I got creamed. Way too much stuff to dodge to keep dodging them all, and way too many enemies (and dredge) to keep blind up on everything. DPS clearly wasn’t all that mattered because I’m not contributing when Im dead on the floor.

So I had to consider more things like mobility, ability to evade more with vigour, more healing capabilities all whilst still maintaining good damage, because a pure healtank isn’t very beneficial either.

(Do keep in mind this was when we actually still tried to do things like all 3 miasma events at once so, we weren’t all in 1 huge zerg to farm the crud out the the event, where only DPS really matters.)

Now, that’s more depth than a pure DPS build because simply it had more variables to input into it.

You can’t do that with the trinity because otherwise you are moving away from the trinity and throwing curveballs at people.

To put your argument into another perspective, in a trinity, you have an equal problem. For a DPS for example, does stats other than DPS matter? No, because otherwise the tank and healer must be just doing their jobs wrong. Does damage stats matter to a tank (beyond basic DPS to keep aggro in some games) or healer? No, because if they do, you should either grab a new DPS or think about how you’re maintaining aggro.

How would content or AI be better in a trinity? Lets take the Shadow Behemoth and stuff it into WoW for example, would that make that fight more interesting?

Nage.1520:

Azreell.1568:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Azreell.1568:

One thing I have learned from GW2 is that without a Trinity games end up lacking strategy and combat depth and become nothing more the zerg dps something down. Wildstars trinity is an interesting twist on something many of us have come to love. It brings a new perspective on an old ideal.

If you are a solo player Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a raider Wildstar has content for you.
If you are crafter Wildstar has content for you.
If you are into player housing wildstar has content for you.
If you are into exploring Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a PvPer Wildstar has content for you.

Games really don’t need a trinity. In fact, the trinity is detrimental to the depth of build making and combat.

If I’m the DPS and only the DPS I don’t need to consider the ability to take aggro or healing because that’s not my job. That forces my build to be very linear.

When I’m fighting as a DPS, my almost only focus is doing as much damage as possible, therefore there’s a limited amount of mechanics I can be exposed to, because otherwise it’d be throwing a curveball at me.

I like how the current LA event’s concept. There’s so much crud flying around and so many enemies you will take aggro and damage, whilst you need to kill enemies fast. I potentially have to consider quite a few things in my build, making it interesting. Now realistically it isn’t quite as interesting because the event has now moved away form actually trying to complete the events to basically zerging up and farming the heck out of it, but the idea is much more interesting than if I just had to go and spec for DPS.

On your second point, you could say that about any game that was designed to actually stay off life-support for a few years. Just because it has them doesn’t mean its going to be done well.

I could not disagree with you more.

And in fairness I think GW2 has proven the lack of a trinity – while , convenient for some is about as shallow as you can get.

Also the lack of a trinity means DPS is the only stat that matters which yields poor content design, poor gear choice selection, poor build selection and poor programmed AI.

All these things are apparent in GW2 at this time.

Do you remember how the trinity was in early games? It sucked. It was all tank and spank.

Guild Wars 2 is doing something relatively new. Until developers learn what can and can’t be done with that relatively new system, it will seem shallow.

The encounters ARE improving if you’ve paid attention. Most dungeons sort of suck but I’m pretty sure that dungeons like the new TA path are much better than the original ones.

Three, four years from now, the time it really takes devs to learn a new system, the stuff coming out will be much better.

Saying a new system not being very good is not working is probably a gross overstatement.

Did you ever read what you just posted?

You basically just agreed with everything I wrote.

GW2 doesn’t have 4 yrs to try and get this new system right – if they even could.

Also, Comparing old tank and spanks to current day mechanics in other games is a not viable. There are much much more complex encounters in most all other games with a trinity currently due to the ability of the trinity and scope at which you can design content when players have specific roles.

Also the new TA path is not much different and I have every achievement in that place so I am very familiar.

The point being as you put it current content “Sort of Sucks” – your words not mine.
The reason being in my opinion the total lack of depth of combat and the meta being dps only.

Azreell.1568:

Nage.1520:

Azreell.1568:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Azreell.1568:

One thing I have learned from GW2 is that without a Trinity games end up lacking strategy and combat depth and become nothing more the zerg dps something down. Wildstars trinity is an interesting twist on something many of us have come to love. It brings a new perspective on an old ideal.

If you are a solo player Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a raider Wildstar has content for you.
If you are crafter Wildstar has content for you.
If you are into player housing wildstar has content for you.
If you are into exploring Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a PvPer Wildstar has content for you.

Games really don’t need a trinity. In fact, the trinity is detrimental to the depth of build making and combat.

If I’m the DPS and only the DPS I don’t need to consider the ability to take aggro or healing because that’s not my job. That forces my build to be very linear.

When I’m fighting as a DPS, my almost only focus is doing as much damage as possible, therefore there’s a limited amount of mechanics I can be exposed to, because otherwise it’d be throwing a curveball at me.

I like how the current LA event’s concept. There’s so much crud flying around and so many enemies you will take aggro and damage, whilst you need to kill enemies fast. I potentially have to consider quite a few things in my build, making it interesting. Now realistically it isn’t quite as interesting because the event has now moved away form actually trying to complete the events to basically zerging up and farming the heck out of it, but the idea is much more interesting than if I just had to go and spec for DPS.

On your second point, you could say that about any game that was designed to actually stay off life-support for a few years. Just because it has them doesn’t mean its going to be done well.

I could not disagree with you more.

And in fairness I think GW2 has proven the lack of a trinity – while , convenient for some is about as shallow as you can get.

Also the lack of a trinity means DPS is the only stat that matters which yields poor content design, poor gear choice selection, poor build selection and poor programmed AI.

All these things are apparent in GW2 at this time.

Do you remember how the trinity was in early games? It sucked. It was all tank and spank.

Guild Wars 2 is doing something relatively new. Until developers learn what can and can’t be done with that relatively new system, it will seem shallow.

The encounters ARE improving if you’ve paid attention. Most dungeons sort of suck but I’m pretty sure that dungeons like the new TA path are much better than the original ones.

Three, four years from now, the time it really takes devs to learn a new system, the stuff coming out will be much better.

Saying a new system not being very good is not working is probably a gross overstatement.

Did you ever read what you just posted?

You basically just agreed with everything I wrote.

GW2 doesn’t have 4 yrs to try and get this new system right – if they even could.

Also, Comparing old tank and spanks to current day mechanics in other games is a not viable. There are much much more complex encounters in most all other games with a trinity currently due to the ability of the trinity and scope at which you can design content when players have specific roles.

Also the new TA path is not much different and I have every achievement in that place so I am very familiar.

The point being as you put it current content “Sort of Sucks” – your words not mine.
The reason being in my opinion the total lack of depth of combat and the meta being dps only.

No, I didn’t agree with anything you wrote. I’m saying trying something new takes time to work out and it’s getting better even now.

At any rate, the trinity system is godawful no matter what they do to it and I won’t play another trinity game again EVER.

I don’t want to look for a healer. I don’t want to look for a tank. The trinity is contrived, annoying and dated. In another five years it’ll hopefully fade away completely.

Azreell.1568:

Nage.1520:

Azreell.1568:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Azreell.1568:

One thing I have learned from GW2 is that without a Trinity games end up lacking strategy and combat depth and become nothing more the zerg dps something down. Wildstars trinity is an interesting twist on something many of us have come to love. It brings a new perspective on an old ideal.

If you are a solo player Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a raider Wildstar has content for you.
If you are crafter Wildstar has content for you.
If you are into player housing wildstar has content for you.
If you are into exploring Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a PvPer Wildstar has content for you.

Games really don’t need a trinity. In fact, the trinity is detrimental to the depth of build making and combat.

If I’m the DPS and only the DPS I don’t need to consider the ability to take aggro or healing because that’s not my job. That forces my build to be very linear.

When I’m fighting as a DPS, my almost only focus is doing as much damage as possible, therefore there’s a limited amount of mechanics I can be exposed to, because otherwise it’d be throwing a curveball at me.

I like how the current LA event’s concept. There’s so much crud flying around and so many enemies you will take aggro and damage, whilst you need to kill enemies fast. I potentially have to consider quite a few things in my build, making it interesting. Now realistically it isn’t quite as interesting because the event has now moved away form actually trying to complete the events to basically zerging up and farming the heck out of it, but the idea is much more interesting than if I just had to go and spec for DPS.

On your second point, you could say that about any game that was designed to actually stay off life-support for a few years. Just because it has them doesn’t mean its going to be done well.

I could not disagree with you more.

And in fairness I think GW2 has proven the lack of a trinity – while , convenient for some is about as shallow as you can get.

Also the lack of a trinity means DPS is the only stat that matters which yields poor content design, poor gear choice selection, poor build selection and poor programmed AI.

All these things are apparent in GW2 at this time.

Do you remember how the trinity was in early games? It sucked. It was all tank and spank.

Guild Wars 2 is doing something relatively new. Until developers learn what can and can’t be done with that relatively new system, it will seem shallow.

The encounters ARE improving if you’ve paid attention. Most dungeons sort of suck but I’m pretty sure that dungeons like the new TA path are much better than the original ones.

Three, four years from now, the time it really takes devs to learn a new system, the stuff coming out will be much better.

Saying a new system not being very good is not working is probably a gross overstatement.

Did you ever read what you just posted?

You basically just agreed with everything I wrote.

GW2 doesn’t have 4 yrs to try and get this new system right – if they even could.

Also, Comparing old tank and spanks to current day mechanics in other games is a not viable. There are much much more complex encounters in most all other games with a trinity currently due to the ability of the trinity and scope at which you can design content when players have specific roles.

Also the new TA path is not much different and I have every achievement in that place so I am very familiar.

The point being as you put it current content “Sort of Sucks” – your words not mine.
The reason being in my opinion the total lack of depth of combat and the meta being dps only.

Can you think of any mechanics from trinity-based games which can’t be translated into a non-trinity system?

I can;t think of any mechanics from MMOs I’ve played which can’t be translated into a non-trinity context and be made more interesting, and I’ve played MMOs for 10+ years.

Nage.1520:

Azreell.1568:

Nage.1520:

Azreell.1568:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Azreell.1568:

One thing I have learned from GW2 is that without a Trinity games end up lacking strategy and combat depth and become nothing more the zerg dps something down. Wildstars trinity is an interesting twist on something many of us have come to love. It brings a new perspective on an old ideal.

If you are a solo player Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a raider Wildstar has content for you.
If you are crafter Wildstar has content for you.
If you are into player housing wildstar has content for you.
If you are into exploring Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a PvPer Wildstar has content for you.

Games really don’t need a trinity. In fact, the trinity is detrimental to the depth of build making and combat.

If I’m the DPS and only the DPS I don’t need to consider the ability to take aggro or healing because that’s not my job. That forces my build to be very linear.

When I’m fighting as a DPS, my almost only focus is doing as much damage as possible, therefore there’s a limited amount of mechanics I can be exposed to, because otherwise it’d be throwing a curveball at me.

I like how the current LA event’s concept. There’s so much crud flying around and so many enemies you will take aggro and damage, whilst you need to kill enemies fast. I potentially have to consider quite a few things in my build, making it interesting. Now realistically it isn’t quite as interesting because the event has now moved away form actually trying to complete the events to basically zerging up and farming the heck out of it, but the idea is much more interesting than if I just had to go and spec for DPS.

On your second point, you could say that about any game that was designed to actually stay off life-support for a few years. Just because it has them doesn’t mean its going to be done well.

I could not disagree with you more.

And in fairness I think GW2 has proven the lack of a trinity – while , convenient for some is about as shallow as you can get.

Also the lack of a trinity means DPS is the only stat that matters which yields poor content design, poor gear choice selection, poor build selection and poor programmed AI.

All these things are apparent in GW2 at this time.

Do you remember how the trinity was in early games? It sucked. It was all tank and spank.

Guild Wars 2 is doing something relatively new. Until developers learn what can and can’t be done with that relatively new system, it will seem shallow.

The encounters ARE improving if you’ve paid attention. Most dungeons sort of suck but I’m pretty sure that dungeons like the new TA path are much better than the original ones.

Three, four years from now, the time it really takes devs to learn a new system, the stuff coming out will be much better.

Saying a new system not being very good is not working is probably a gross overstatement.

Did you ever read what you just posted?

You basically just agreed with everything I wrote.

GW2 doesn’t have 4 yrs to try and get this new system right – if they even could.

Also, Comparing old tank and spanks to current day mechanics in other games is a not viable. There are much much more complex encounters in most all other games with a trinity currently due to the ability of the trinity and scope at which you can design content when players have specific roles.

Also the new TA path is not much different and I have every achievement in that place so I am very familiar.

The point being as you put it current content “Sort of Sucks” – your words not mine.
The reason being in my opinion the total lack of depth of combat and the meta being dps only.

No, I didn’t agree with anything you wrote. I’m saying trying something new takes time to work out and it’s getting better even now.

At any rate, the trinity system is godawful no matter what they do to it and I won’t play another trinity game again EVER.

I don’t want to look for a healer. I don’t want to look for a tank. The trinity is contrived, annoying and dated. In another five years it’ll hopefully fade away completely.

Then you have no idea what you wrote in your prior response.

The trinity isn’t going anywhere.

By the looks of the new and up coming games it’s making a very large come back.

As YOU yourself have posted – GW2 in it’s current trinity less state “sort of sucks”.

Do you really need to say more or want me to quote your response again?

Azreell.1568:

Nage.1520:

Azreell.1568:

Nage.1520:

Azreell.1568:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Azreell.1568:

One thing I have learned from GW2 is that without a Trinity games end up lacking strategy and combat depth and become nothing more the zerg dps something down. Wildstars trinity is an interesting twist on something many of us have come to love. It brings a new perspective on an old ideal.

If you are a solo player Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a raider Wildstar has content for you.
If you are crafter Wildstar has content for you.
If you are into player housing wildstar has content for you.
If you are into exploring Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a PvPer Wildstar has content for you.

Games really don’t need a trinity. In fact, the trinity is detrimental to the depth of build making and combat.

If I’m the DPS and only the DPS I don’t need to consider the ability to take aggro or healing because that’s not my job. That forces my build to be very linear.

When I’m fighting as a DPS, my almost only focus is doing as much damage as possible, therefore there’s a limited amount of mechanics I can be exposed to, because otherwise it’d be throwing a curveball at me.

I like how the current LA event’s concept. There’s so much crud flying around and so many enemies you will take aggro and damage, whilst you need to kill enemies fast. I potentially have to consider quite a few things in my build, making it interesting. Now realistically it isn’t quite as interesting because the event has now moved away form actually trying to complete the events to basically zerging up and farming the heck out of it, but the idea is much more interesting than if I just had to go and spec for DPS.

On your second point, you could say that about any game that was designed to actually stay off life-support for a few years. Just because it has them doesn’t mean its going to be done well.

I could not disagree with you more.

And in fairness I think GW2 has proven the lack of a trinity – while , convenient for some is about as shallow as you can get.

Also the lack of a trinity means DPS is the only stat that matters which yields poor content design, poor gear choice selection, poor build selection and poor programmed AI.

All these things are apparent in GW2 at this time.

Do you remember how the trinity was in early games? It sucked. It was all tank and spank.

Guild Wars 2 is doing something relatively new. Until developers learn what can and can’t be done with that relatively new system, it will seem shallow.

The encounters ARE improving if you’ve paid attention. Most dungeons sort of suck but I’m pretty sure that dungeons like the new TA path are much better than the original ones.

Three, four years from now, the time it really takes devs to learn a new system, the stuff coming out will be much better.

Saying a new system not being very good is not working is probably a gross overstatement.

Did you ever read what you just posted?

You basically just agreed with everything I wrote.

GW2 doesn’t have 4 yrs to try and get this new system right – if they even could.

Also, Comparing old tank and spanks to current day mechanics in other games is a not viable. There are much much more complex encounters in most all other games with a trinity currently due to the ability of the trinity and scope at which you can design content when players have specific roles.

Also the new TA path is not much different and I have every achievement in that place so I am very familiar.

The point being as you put it current content “Sort of Sucks” – your words not mine.
The reason being in my opinion the total lack of depth of combat and the meta being dps only.

No, I didn’t agree with anything you wrote. I’m saying trying something new takes time to work out and it’s getting better even now.

At any rate, the trinity system is godawful no matter what they do to it and I won’t play another trinity game again EVER.

I don’t want to look for a healer. I don’t want to look for a tank. The trinity is contrived, annoying and dated. In another five years it’ll hopefully fade away completely.

Then you have no idea what you wrote in your prior response.

The trinity isn’t going anywhere.

By the looks of the new and up coming games it’s making a very large come back.

As YOU yourself have posted – GW2 in it’s current trinity less state “sort of sucks”.

Do you really need to say more or want me to quote your response again?

It making a comeback doesn’t mean it isn’t bad. Just because people still binge drink doesn’t mean it’s a good thing or isn’t costing national medicare systems hundreds of millions a year.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Azreell.1568:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Azreell.1568:

One thing I have learned from GW2 is that without a Trinity games end up lacking strategy and combat depth and become nothing more the zerg dps something down. Wildstars trinity is an interesting twist on something many of us have come to love. It brings a new perspective on an old ideal.

If you are a solo player Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a raider Wildstar has content for you.
If you are crafter Wildstar has content for you.
If you are into player housing wildstar has content for you.
If you are into exploring Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a PvPer Wildstar has content for you.

Games really don’t need a trinity. In fact, the trinity is detrimental to the depth of build making and combat.

If I’m the DPS and only the DPS I don’t need to consider the ability to take aggro or healing because that’s not my job. That forces my build to be very linear.

When I’m fighting as a DPS, my almost only focus is doing as much damage as possible, therefore there’s a limited amount of mechanics I can be exposed to, because otherwise it’d be throwing a curveball at me.

I like how the current LA event’s concept. There’s so much crud flying around and so many enemies you will take aggro and damage, whilst you need to kill enemies fast. I potentially have to consider quite a few things in my build, making it interesting. Now realistically it isn’t quite as interesting because the event has now moved away form actually trying to complete the events to basically zerging up and farming the heck out of it, but the idea is much more interesting than if I just had to go and spec for DPS.

On your second point, you could say that about any game that was designed to actually stay off life-support for a few years. Just because it has them doesn’t mean its going to be done well.

I could not disagree with you more.

And in fairness I think GW2 has proven the lack of a trinity – while , convenient for some is about as shallow as you can get.

Also the lack of a trinity means DPS is the only stat that matters which yields poor content design, poor gear choice selection, poor build selection and poor programmed AI.

All these things are apparent in GW2 at this time.

I’ll put it into a bit more context then. I went into LA first as my usual full zerk DPS Guardian. I got creamed. Way too much stuff to dodge to keep dodging them all, and way too many enemies (and dredge) to keep blind up on everything. DPS clearly wasn’t all that mattered because I’m not contributing when Im dead on the floor.

So I had to consider more things like mobility, ability to evade more with vigour, more healing capabilities all whilst still maintaining good damage, because a pure healtank isn’t very beneficial either.

(Do keep in mind this was when we actually still tried to do things like all 3 miasma events at once so, we weren’t all in 1 huge zerg to farm the crud out the the event, where only DPS really matters.)

Now, that’s more depth than a pure DPS build because simply it had more variables to input into it.

You can’t do that with the trinity because otherwise you are moving away from the trinity and throwing curveballs at people.

To put your argument into another perspective, in a trinity, you have an equal problem. For a DPS for example, does stats other than DPS matter? No, because otherwise the tank and healer must be just doing their jobs wrong. Does damage stats matter to a tank (beyond basic DPS to keep aggro in some games) or healer? No, because if they do, you should either grab a new DPS or think about how you’re maintaining aggro.

How would content or AI be better in a trinity? Lets take the Shadow Behemoth and stuff it into WoW for example, would that make that fight more interesting?

With all due respect that is a player issue problem. Not a design flaw or compliment.

I went in there with my zerk guardian as well and had zero issues. 20 25 0 0 25.

The point is in this game being trinityless the only stat that matters is dps.

The faster you kill something the better off you are as been proven for basically a year straight by all players.

Dodges, aegis, vigor, protection all these buffs enable it were everyone can be full zerk dps and have no issue what so ever.

The game combat is shallow due to the above comment.

Also – In reply to your thread I missed. Perhaps you should work at Anet – since they seem to be having issues designing content in which anything but DPS matters.

Azreell.1568:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Azreell.1568:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Azreell.1568:

One thing I have learned from GW2 is that without a Trinity games end up lacking strategy and combat depth and become nothing more the zerg dps something down. Wildstars trinity is an interesting twist on something many of us have come to love. It brings a new perspective on an old ideal.

If you are a solo player Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a raider Wildstar has content for you.
If you are crafter Wildstar has content for you.
If you are into player housing wildstar has content for you.
If you are into exploring Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a PvPer Wildstar has content for you.

Games really don’t need a trinity. In fact, the trinity is detrimental to the depth of build making and combat.

If I’m the DPS and only the DPS I don’t need to consider the ability to take aggro or healing because that’s not my job. That forces my build to be very linear.

When I’m fighting as a DPS, my almost only focus is doing as much damage as possible, therefore there’s a limited amount of mechanics I can be exposed to, because otherwise it’d be throwing a curveball at me.

I like how the current LA event’s concept. There’s so much crud flying around and so many enemies you will take aggro and damage, whilst you need to kill enemies fast. I potentially have to consider quite a few things in my build, making it interesting. Now realistically it isn’t quite as interesting because the event has now moved away form actually trying to complete the events to basically zerging up and farming the heck out of it, but the idea is much more interesting than if I just had to go and spec for DPS.

On your second point, you could say that about any game that was designed to actually stay off life-support for a few years. Just because it has them doesn’t mean its going to be done well.

I could not disagree with you more.

And in fairness I think GW2 has proven the lack of a trinity – while , convenient for some is about as shallow as you can get.

Also the lack of a trinity means DPS is the only stat that matters which yields poor content design, poor gear choice selection, poor build selection and poor programmed AI.

All these things are apparent in GW2 at this time.

I’ll put it into a bit more context then. I went into LA first as my usual full zerk DPS Guardian. I got creamed. Way too much stuff to dodge to keep dodging them all, and way too many enemies (and dredge) to keep blind up on everything. DPS clearly wasn’t all that mattered because I’m not contributing when Im dead on the floor.

So I had to consider more things like mobility, ability to evade more with vigour, more healing capabilities all whilst still maintaining good damage, because a pure healtank isn’t very beneficial either.

(Do keep in mind this was when we actually still tried to do things like all 3 miasma events at once so, we weren’t all in 1 huge zerg to farm the crud out the the event, where only DPS really matters.)

Now, that’s more depth than a pure DPS build because simply it had more variables to input into it.

You can’t do that with the trinity because otherwise you are moving away from the trinity and throwing curveballs at people.

To put your argument into another perspective, in a trinity, you have an equal problem. For a DPS for example, does stats other than DPS matter? No, because otherwise the tank and healer must be just doing their jobs wrong. Does damage stats matter to a tank (beyond basic DPS to keep aggro in some games) or healer? No, because if they do, you should either grab a new DPS or think about how you’re maintaining aggro.

How would content or AI be better in a trinity? Lets take the Shadow Behemoth and stuff it into WoW for example, would that make that fight more interesting?

With all due respect that is a player issue problem. Not a design flaw or compliment.

I went in there with my zerk guardian as well and had zero issues. 20 25 0 0 25.

The point is in this game being trinityless the only stat that matters is dps.

The faster you kill something the better off you are as been proven for basically a year straight by all players.

Dodges, aegis, vigor, protection all these buffs enable it were everyone can be full zerk dps and have no issue what so ever.

The game combat is shallow due to the above comment.

Also – In reply to your thread I missed. Perhaps you should work at Anet – since they seem to be having issues designing content in which anything but DPS matters.

Then let me turn the question around to you. Let’s take the example of a DPS in a trinity game, what do I have to think about that make the game a lot more deep?

The tank needs to think about taking damage, but I don’t, all I need to think about is DPS.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Then let me turn the question around to you. Let’s take the example of a DPS in a trinity game, what do I have to think about that make the game a lot more deep?

The tank needs to think about taking damage, but I don’t, all I need to think about is DPS.

Almost guaranteed he’s going to come back with knowing your rotation and hitting your procs accordingly. Which, to me, is rather brainless, but hey, to each his own.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Then let me turn the question around to you. Let’s take the example of a DPS in a trinity game, what do I have to think about that make the game a lot more deep?

The tank needs to think about taking damage, but I don’t, all I need to think about is DPS.

Almost guaranteed he’s going to come back with knowing your rotation and hitting your procs accordingly. Which, to me, is rather brainless, but hey, to each his own.

Its not brainless, because you need to have built a good rotation to start with, but that build is just very linear since there’s really one variable to it: DPS.

And the thing about DPS builds in particular is that since they’re so simple you could pretty much just nab a FotM build anyways. Tank and Healer builds aren’t as simple but its still very linear.

Some of the best moments of build making I had was when the game moved off the trinity or I forced it to move off the trinity and had to consider a lot of different variable to input into a build. What came out are truely things of beauty.

Xae Isareth.1364:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Then let me turn the question around to you. Let’s take the example of a DPS in a trinity game, what do I have to think about that make the game a lot more deep?

The tank needs to think about taking damage, but I don’t, all I need to think about is DPS.

Almost guaranteed he’s going to come back with knowing your rotation and hitting your procs accordingly. Which, to me, is rather brainless, but hey, to each his own.

Its not brainless, because you need to have built a good rotation to start with, but that build is just very linear since there’s really one variable to it: DPS.

And the thing about DPS builds in particular is that since they’re so simple you could pretty much just nab a FotM build anyways. Tank and Healer builds aren’t as simple but its still very linear.

Some of the best moments of build making I had was when the game moved off the trinity or I forced it to move off the trinity and had to consider a lot of different variable to input into a build. What came out are truely things of beauty.

I tend to find pure dps brainless, but like I’d said – that’s just me.

Its too much
1-2-3
1-2-3-4 (for the proc)
1-2-3
1-2-3
for example. Very dull.

I have always enjoyed playing a healer, it at least required me to be attentive. Prot this one, heal that one, berate the idiot, etc. grin

I prefer the non-trinity set up myself as well. I didn’t run true trinity in GW1, and I’m extremely happy I don’t have to deal with it here. I like to experiment. Tends to get a little expensive, but hey, it’s my choice.

Azreell.1568:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Azreell.1568:

One thing I have learned from GW2 is that without a Trinity games end up lacking strategy and combat depth and become nothing more the zerg dps something down. Wildstars trinity is an interesting twist on something many of us have come to love. It brings a new perspective on an old ideal.

If you are a solo player Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a raider Wildstar has content for you.
If you are crafter Wildstar has content for you.
If you are into player housing wildstar has content for you.
If you are into exploring Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a PvPer Wildstar has content for you.

Games really don’t need a trinity. In fact, the trinity is detrimental to the depth of build making and combat.

If I’m the DPS and only the DPS I don’t need to consider the ability to take aggro or healing because that’s not my job. That forces my build to be very linear.

When I’m fighting as a DPS, my almost only focus is doing as much damage as possible, therefore there’s a limited amount of mechanics I can be exposed to, because otherwise it’d be throwing a curveball at me.

I like how the current LA event’s concept. There’s so much crud flying around and so many enemies you will take aggro and damage, whilst you need to kill enemies fast. I potentially have to consider quite a few things in my build, making it interesting. Now realistically it isn’t quite as interesting because the event has now moved away form actually trying to complete the events to basically zerging up and farming the heck out of it, but the idea is much more interesting than if I just had to go and spec for DPS.

On your second point, you could say that about any game that was designed to actually stay off life-support for a few years. Just because it has them doesn’t mean its going to be done well.

I could not disagree with you more.

And in fairness I think GW2 has proven the lack of a trinity – while , convenient for some is about as shallow as you can get.

Also the lack of a trinity means DPS is the only stat that matters which yields poor content design, poor gear choice selection, poor build selection and poor programmed AI.

All these things are apparent in GW2 at this time.

I disagree that the lack of traditional trinity is the root cause of the DPS/stacking meta. The real culprits are:

1. The decision to make all professions capable of most things. This was done for the same reason as the abandonment of trinity — allowing a group of 5 anythings to do dungeons — but, it is not the same thing.
2. The decision to base combat mechanics on PvP while failing to make PvE combat flow the same way. While I can understand making the game PvP-centric (after all, GW was designed as a PvP game), this decision produced the DPS-is-everything meta. All you have to do is look at the meta builds in PvP to realize that the game could support other-than-glass builds in PvE with changes to mob behavior.
3. The decision to make all group buffs and defenses work only within a small radius. This is also understandable from a PvP perspective, but it also produces the stack-as-much-as-possible dungeon tactics. Pulling mobs into corners (etc.) to take advantage of glitches in mob performance is a combination of the advantages of stacking coupled with player propensity to follow the path of least resistance. If GW2 had short-radius buffs, mobs that could be glitched, and trinity, groups would still stack and still trigger the glitches.

While I recognize the flaws in GW2 combat, I’ll give ANet an A- for the attempt to forgo trinity play. While the execution leaves something to be desired, there was nothing wrong with the concept. The trinity may still appeal to die-hard fans, but it is not, and never was, a holy icon.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Then let me turn the question around to you. Let’s take the example of a DPS in a trinity game, what do I have to think about that make the game a lot more deep?

The tank needs to think about taking damage, but I don’t, all I need to think about is DPS.

Almost guaranteed he’s going to come back with knowing your rotation and hitting your procs accordingly. Which, to me, is rather brainless, but hey, to each his own.

Positioning requirements.

Boss Mechanics/movement – Since you can’t spam abilities while moving. Positing is FAR more important on DPS uptime.

Mechanics would limit or increase your dps. None exist content wise in this game.

Synergy between phases of when to dps and when to stop to let aggro build or decline. No tanks – no need for any type of aggro awareness.

Proper timing of CD’s for burst phases. No enrage timers. World event timers only prohibit soloin world event bosses.

Healing requirements – knowing if and when I may need to pot or what buff i can do or bring to help healers or help healer energy / mana resource regen.

Buffs – Each class has certain buffs which benefit the raid / group comp which are required not just something I can do if i feel like it. So each class has a role beyond just dps in these games but more specific utilities.

The only thing brainless is stacking in a corner and letting your auto attacks kill most mobs. Even in high level fractals. Also, the mindless spam without any type of energy management in this game is like playing wack-a-mole until something is dead.

I could keep going on in my list if you so choose.

The point is this game is very shallow and not many people will agree with you that it isn’t.

What big could they reveal?
I’m willing to bet people would be rather disappointed if Arena Net came out and all they said were that there’s going to be only Living Story this year.

Azreell.1568:

Nage.1520:

Azreell.1568:

Nage.1520:

Azreell.1568:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Azreell.1568:

edited for space

Games really don’t need a trinity. In fact, the trinity is detrimental to the depth of build making and combat.

If I’m the DPS and only the DPS I don’t need to consider the ability to take aggro or healing because that’s not my job. That forces my build to be very linear.

When I’m fighting as a DPS, my almost only focus is doing as much damage as possible, therefore there’s a limited amount of mechanics I can be exposed to, because otherwise it’d be throwing a curveball at me.

I like how the current LA event’s concept. There’s so much crud flying around and so many enemies you will take aggro and damage, whilst you need to kill enemies fast. I potentially have to consider quite a few things in my build, making it interesting. Now realistically it isn’t quite as interesting because the event has now moved away form actually trying to complete the events to basically zerging up and farming the heck out of it, but the idea is much more interesting than if I just had to go and spec for DPS.

On your second point, you could say that about any game that was designed to actually stay off life-support for a few years. Just because it has them doesn’t mean its going to be done well.

I could not disagree with you more.

And in fairness I think GW2 has proven the lack of a trinity – while , convenient for some is about as shallow as you can get.

Also the lack of a trinity means DPS is the only stat that matters which yields poor content design, poor gear choice selection, poor build selection and poor programmed AI.

All these things are apparent in GW2 at this time.

Do you remember how the trinity was in early games? It sucked. It was all tank and spank.

Guild Wars 2 is doing something relatively new. Until developers learn what can and can’t be done with that relatively new system, it will seem shallow.

The encounters ARE improving if you’ve paid attention. Most dungeons sort of suck but I’m pretty sure that dungeons like the new TA path are much better than the original ones.

Three, four years from now, the time it really takes devs to learn a new system, the stuff coming out will be much better.

Saying a new system not being very good is not working is probably a gross overstatement.

Did you ever read what you just posted?

You basically just agreed with everything I wrote.

GW2 doesn’t have 4 yrs to try and get this new system right – if they even could.

Also, Comparing old tank and spanks to current day mechanics in other games is a not viable. There are much much more complex encounters in most all other games with a trinity currently due to the ability of the trinity and scope at which you can design content when players have specific roles.

Also the new TA path is not much different and I have every achievement in that place so I am very familiar.

The point being as you put it current content “Sort of Sucks” – your words not mine.
The reason being in my opinion the total lack of depth of combat and the meta being dps only.

No, I didn’t agree with anything you wrote. I’m saying trying something new takes time to work out and it’s getting better even now.

At any rate, the trinity system is godawful no matter what they do to it and I won’t play another trinity game again EVER.

I don’t want to look for a healer. I don’t want to look for a tank. The trinity is contrived, annoying and dated. In another five years it’ll hopefully fade away completely.

Then you have no idea what you wrote in your prior response.

The trinity isn’t going anywhere.

By the looks of the new and up coming games it’s making a very large come back.

As YOU yourself have posted – GW2 in it’s current trinity less state “sort of sucks”.

Do you really need to say more or want me to quote your response again?

I said the dungeons sorta suck…but since you don’t have any idea of how I feel about dungeons from other games, you’re making a large assumption here.

I generally don’t prefer instanced content in any game, so I’m less likely to enjoy it. That said, I like the dungeons in the game better than I have liked dungeons in other games.

You can quote me all you like, but you’ve still made an unwarranted assumption.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Can you think of any mechanics from trinity-based games which can’t be translated into a non-trinity system?

I can;t think of any mechanics from MMOs I’ve played which can’t be translated into a non-trinity context and be made more interesting, and I’ve played MMOs for 10+ years.

There are many many mechanics that can’t be translated to DPS only combat.

Just to list off a few off the top of my head:

Without aggro mechanics you can not have any sort of viable aggro gameplay. Threat switches, target separation, dps threat management, armor debuffs, and directional damage mitigation are all mechanics that can’t be used without a threat/aggro system in place.

Without healers you can not have effective healing management gameplay. Priority cleansing, healing spikes, steady healing, significant timed buffs, single focus healing, group positioning and range management all can’t be effectively introduced without a dedicated healing role to manage them.

DPS is also diminished in a non-trinity system. Since a dps character has to be able to mitigate damage, heal, dps, and utility all at once it is much harder to balance. Many different tradeoffs are necessary. You can not obtain the same level of balance and control over DPS that allow things like soft-caps, burn phases, target switching, and stop dps because every character has his own personal trinity that needs to be balanced around, leading to a much looser balance. In most MMO’s you trade DPS for survivability, you trade heavy armor in melee for light armor at range and you trade off burst for sustained DPS. All of these things go out the window and we end up with things like the warrior class which has the best of all 3 roles while other classes are hung out to dry.

I’m sure there are more examples of mechanics you can’t do in GW2 that are easily accomplished in a trinity game, but that was just off the top of my head.

Nage,

I did nothing but repost what you yourself have written.

If you don’t like that – perhaps you should have phrased your context differently.

On a side note – Just so you are aware: Trinity games the the majority in mmo’s and non trinity are the minority.

So of course tens of millions of players across multiple games currently are obviously wrong and you are right.

How could I have not seen that ?

Azreell.1568:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Then let me turn the question around to you. Let’s take the example of a DPS in a trinity game, what do I have to think about that make the game a lot more deep?

The tank needs to think about taking damage, but I don’t, all I need to think about is DPS.

Almost guaranteed he’s going to come back with knowing your rotation and hitting your procs accordingly. Which, to me, is rather brainless, but hey, to each his own.

Positioning requirements.

Boss Mechanics/movement – Since you can’t spam abilities while moving. Positing is FAR more important on DPS uptime.

Mechanics would limit or increase your dps. None exist content wise in this game.

Synergy between phases of when to dps and when to stop to let aggro build or decline. No tanks – no need for any type of aggro awareness.

Proper timing of CD’s for burst phases. No enrage timers. World event timers only prohibit soloin world event bosses.

Healing requirements – knowing if and when I may need to pot or what buff i can do or bring to help healers or help healer energy / mana resource regen.

Buffs – Each class has certain buffs which benefit the raid / group comp which are required not just something I can do if i feel like it. So each class has a role beyond just dps in these games but more specific utilities.

The only thing brainless is stacking in a corner and letting your auto attacks kill most mobs. Even in high level fractals. Also, the mindless spam without any type of energy management in this game is like playing wack-a-mole until something is dead.

I could keep going on in my list if you so choose.

The point is this game is very shallow and not many people will agree with you that it isn’t.

Of the things listed, only positioning doesn’t fall under ‘knowing your rotation’ and ‘hitting your procs.’ Knowing when to pop a pot or a buff is part of both rotation and procing since for any given situation it should be pretty ‘standard’ how it’s going to go and what to expect. Unless you get people that don’t know their role or the scenario, that tends to throw anyone for a loop though.

Yes, I agree, stacking in a corner and auto attacking is also brainless. We don’t all play that way though. Yes, AI needs improvement, but if I recall that was in issue in both vanilla WoW and GW1:Proph as well. Such things improve as time progresses. New systems, and all that. As time has progressed, things have begun to improve. Does it still need work? Sure, none of us are refuting that point.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Azreell.1568:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Then let me turn the question around to you. Let’s take the example of a DPS in a trinity game, what do I have to think about that make the game a lot more deep?

The tank needs to think about taking damage, but I don’t, all I need to think about is DPS.

Almost guaranteed he’s going to come back with knowing your rotation and hitting your procs accordingly. Which, to me, is rather brainless, but hey, to each his own.

Positioning requirements.

Boss Mechanics/movement – Since you can’t spam abilities while moving. Positing is FAR more important on DPS uptime.

Mechanics would limit or increase your dps. None exist content wise in this game.

Synergy between phases of when to dps and when to stop to let aggro build or decline. No tanks – no need for any type of aggro awareness.

Proper timing of CD’s for burst phases. No enrage timers. World event timers only prohibit soloin world event bosses.

Healing requirements – knowing if and when I may need to pot or what buff i can do or bring to help healers or help healer energy / mana resource regen.

Buffs – Each class has certain buffs which benefit the raid / group comp which are required not just something I can do if i feel like it. So each class has a role beyond just dps in these games but more specific utilities.

The only thing brainless is stacking in a corner and letting your auto attacks kill most mobs. Even in high level fractals. Also, the mindless spam without any type of energy management in this game is like playing wack-a-mole until something is dead.

I could keep going on in my list if you so choose.

The point is this game is very shallow and not many people will agree with you that it isn’t.

Of the things listed, only positioning doesn’t fall under ‘knowing your rotation’ and ‘hitting your procs.’ Knowing when to pop a pot or a buff is part of both rotation and procing since for any given situation it should be pretty ‘standard’ how it’s going to go and what to expect. Unless you get people that don’t know their role or the scenario, that tends to throw anyone for a loop though.

Yes, I agree, stacking in a corner and auto attacking is also brainless. We don’t all play that way though. Yes, AI needs improvement, but if I recall that was in issue in both vanilla WoW and GW1:Proph as well. Such things improve as time progresses. New systems, and all that. As time has progressed, things have begun to improve. Does it still need work? Sure, none of us are refuting that point.

It hasn’t progressed at all.

Look at marionette lanes if you need proof.

No energy management, no rotation required, no healing tactics or mana management, no tank swaps, no aggro issues, no nothing beyond some very simple movements and spamming your dps abilities as fast as your fingers allow to try and kill it as fast as possible to make the timer.

I did all 5 lines more times then i can count and all it boiled down to was a zerk dps race.

That’s pretty much all this game is and will ever be based on due to the lack of a trinity.

I’m not upset at this – It’s simply just the by-product of a design flaw.

Azreell.1568:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Azreell.1568:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Then let me turn the question around to you. Let’s take the example of a DPS in a trinity game, what do I have to think about that make the game a lot more deep?

The tank needs to think about taking damage, but I don’t, all I need to think about is DPS.

Almost guaranteed he’s going to come back with knowing your rotation and hitting your procs accordingly. Which, to me, is rather brainless, but hey, to each his own.

Positioning requirements.

Boss Mechanics/movement – Since you can’t spam abilities while moving. Positing is FAR more important on DPS uptime.

Mechanics would limit or increase your dps. None exist content wise in this game.

Synergy between phases of when to dps and when to stop to let aggro build or decline. No tanks – no need for any type of aggro awareness.

Proper timing of CD’s for burst phases. No enrage timers. World event timers only prohibit soloin world event bosses.

Healing requirements – knowing if and when I may need to pot or what buff i can do or bring to help healers or help healer energy / mana resource regen.

Buffs – Each class has certain buffs which benefit the raid / group comp which are required not just something I can do if i feel like it. So each class has a role beyond just dps in these games but more specific utilities.

The only thing brainless is stacking in a corner and letting your auto attacks kill most mobs. Even in high level fractals. Also, the mindless spam without any type of energy management in this game is like playing wack-a-mole until something is dead.

I could keep going on in my list if you so choose.

The point is this game is very shallow and not many people will agree with you that it isn’t.

Of the things listed, only positioning doesn’t fall under ‘knowing your rotation’ and ‘hitting your procs.’ Knowing when to pop a pot or a buff is part of both rotation and procing since for any given situation it should be pretty ‘standard’ how it’s going to go and what to expect. Unless you get people that don’t know their role or the scenario, that tends to throw anyone for a loop though.

Yes, I agree, stacking in a corner and auto attacking is also brainless. We don’t all play that way though. Yes, AI needs improvement, but if I recall that was in issue in both vanilla WoW and GW1:Proph as well. Such things improve as time progresses. New systems, and all that. As time has progressed, things have begun to improve. Does it still need work? Sure, none of us are refuting that point.

It hasn’t progressed at all.

Look at marionette lanes if you need proof.

No energy management, no rotation required, no healing tactics or mana management, no tank swaps, no aggro issues, no nothing beyond some very simple movements and spamming your dps abilities as fast as your fingers allow to try and kill it as fast as possible to make the timer.

I did all 5 lines more times then i can count and all it boiled down to was a zerk dps race.

That’s pretty much all this game is and will ever be based on due to the lack of a trinity.

I’m not upset at this – It’s simply just the by-product of a design flaw.

Yes, the lane defense were just that…. stand and defend. Not any different than the stand and spam to get through trash mobs in any raid or dungeon… there was nothing special required for many of those either. Kill as fast as you can and don’t stand in the fire. The upside in GW2 is that you can cast and move.

The actual internal battles for the marionette weren’t so bad, and some did require some tactics. You couldn’t just stack and spam 1 for several of them. You needed some of your teammates to have some sense of coordination (and hoped you had enough for all 5 rings). Was it the best? No, but it was better.

Your ‘proof’ is flawed because you’re only looking at one aspect, and not even comparing it to a similar aspect.

Yes, there are sections of easier content, which allows for zerging and mindless killing (lane defense, jubilee farming, etc). However, there are also skillful components as well… Liadre, the lane bosses, Aetherblade dungeon (pre-fractal), TA revamp, etc. It has been getting better.

Perhaps it’s not what you’re looking for, and that’s fine, but you should still take off the blinders.

Azreell.1568:

GW2 hasn’t changed very much in over a year. Minimum lack luster updates at best.

If you count the LS – please read no further and it would be an exercise in futility.

Looking Objectively as both games as I have played both quite a bit (Wildstar and GW2) I will tell you this.

Wildstar is what I thought GW2 was going to end up being. I was well aware gw2 would never be gw1 but I had hope at least it would evolve into something great and a hybrid of the current mmorpg style. In didn’t end up that way.

Wildstar is heavily based on GW2 combat but it actually takes it one step further in terms of depth. Combat pve wise in Wildstar blows GW2 out of the water. There is no stack in a corner and win. Or zerg farm everything and win. There are actual tactics and strategy to encounters both solo and group.

One thing I have learned from GW2 is that without a Trinity games end up lacking strategy and combat depth and become nothing more the zerg dps something down. Wildstars trinity is an interesting twist on something many of us have come to love. It brings a new perspective on an old ideal.

If you are a solo player Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a raider Wildstar has content for you.
If you are crafter Wildstar has content for you.
If you are into player housing wildstar has content for you.
If you are into exploring Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a PvPer Wildstar has content for you.

The game is shipping with more content then we have GW2 a year later. Something has to be said about that.

Too bad the entire game looks ugly with goofy wacky cartoon graphics and brings nothing new to the Genre. ;/ Such an overhyped game.

Doggie.3184:

Azreell.1568:

GW2 hasn’t changed very much in over a year. Minimum lack luster updates at best.

If you count the LS – please read no further and it would be an exercise in futility.

Looking Objectively as both games as I have played both quite a bit (Wildstar and GW2) I will tell you this.

Wildstar is what I thought GW2 was going to end up being. I was well aware gw2 would never be gw1 but I had hope at least it would evolve into something great and a hybrid of the current mmorpg style. In didn’t end up that way.

Wildstar is heavily based on GW2 combat but it actually takes it one step further in terms of depth. Combat pve wise in Wildstar blows GW2 out of the water. There is no stack in a corner and win. Or zerg farm everything and win. There are actual tactics and strategy to encounters both solo and group.

One thing I have learned from GW2 is that without a Trinity games end up lacking strategy and combat depth and become nothing more the zerg dps something down. Wildstars trinity is an interesting twist on something many of us have come to love. It brings a new perspective on an old ideal.

If you are a solo player Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a raider Wildstar has content for you.
If you are crafter Wildstar has content for you.
If you are into player housing wildstar has content for you.
If you are into exploring Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a PvPer Wildstar has content for you.

The game is shipping with more content then we have GW2 a year later. Something has to be said about that.

Too bad the entire game looks ugly with goofy wacky cartoon graphics and brings nothing new to the Genre. ;/ Such an overhyped game.

The misconception is you need to bring something new to the genre.

GW2 tried and according to many people it didn’t work out so well.

Also, Have you played the game? The graphic style was chosen for 2 reasons. First off it fits perfectly to the atmosphere of the game. Secondly it cartoon style graphics age far better then what we have in GW2. Don’t get me wrong currently GW2 is a beautiful game. But, in time it will not age well – that’s the price of this graphic design.

The old saying, “If it isn’t broken don’t fix it” may still apply to this genre.

WoW is 10yrs old and still going strong. Matter of fact it still has a larger population then most other games combined including this one.

The game isn’t over hyped – I’ve played it a ton and in my opinion it’s what guild wars 2 should have been. The systems that game offers are many of the things Anet promised and never delivered on.

Wildstar has the best of both worlds. You can play it casual and enjoy it or play it hardcore and enjoy it.

It offers enough content for both sides of the spectrum.

Neoheart.2750:

ESO will have it’s own following and fanbase etc but it’s not that one that Anet have to worry about. Its Wildstar.

NCSoft is publishing Wildstar. That’s the same company that publishes Guild Wars 2.

Wildstar isn’t a competitor.

In fact, Guild Wars 2 may well promote people to try Wildstar because it has a monthly subscription.

Dee Jay.2460:

Neoheart.2750:

ESO will have it’s own following and fanbase etc but it’s not that one that Anet have to worry about. Its Wildstar.

NCSoft is publishing Wildstar. That’s the same company that publishes Guild Wars 2.

Wildstar isn’t a competitor.

Yes it is actually.

NcSoft is only the publisher for both games.

Anet is the development company for GW2

Turbine is the development company for WildStar

It will be competing with GW2 for a player base and will in turn even take players.

How is that not a competition?

Azreell.1568:

Dee Jay.2460:

Neoheart.2750:

ESO will have it’s own following and fanbase etc but it’s not that one that Anet have to worry about. Its Wildstar.

NCSoft is publishing Wildstar. That’s the same company that publishes Guild Wars 2.

Wildstar isn’t a competitor.

Yes it is actually.

NcSoft is only the publisher for both games.

Anet is the development company for GW2

Turbine is the development company for WildStar

It will be competing with GW2 for a player base and will in turn even take players.

How is that not a competition?

I agree it’s competition. But it’s similar to Bud Light and Budweiser…. same parent. In the end, both win because funds from one may help the other, or funds from both may go to yet a third in development. That’s sort of NCSoft’s decision to make.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Azreell.1568:

Dee Jay.2460:

Neoheart.2750:

ESO will have it’s own following and fanbase etc but it’s not that one that Anet have to worry about. Its Wildstar.

NCSoft is publishing Wildstar. That’s the same company that publishes Guild Wars 2.

Wildstar isn’t a competitor.

Yes it is actually.

NcSoft is only the publisher for both games.

Anet is the development company for GW2

Turbine is the development company for WildStar

It will be competing with GW2 for a player base and will in turn even take players.

How is that not a competition?

I agree it’s competition. But it’s similar to Bud Light and Budweiser…. same parent. In the end, both win because funds from one may help the other, or funds from both may go to yet a third in development. That’s sort of NCSoft’s decision to make.

Speaking from a Corporate standpoint.

Funds earned from one will never see the light of day in the other.

There are multiple reasons for that some being tax prohibitive others development team agreements and so on.

They will remain separate and quite frankly they should. But, what will happen is whichever title earns them more money the other if it starts to loose players will be put on life support.

Look to SoE for examples on this.

It’s dangerous when a company has two AAA titles on the market in direct competition with each other.

Something will have to give.

Azreell.1568:

Doggie.3184:

Azreell.1568:

GW2 hasn’t changed very much in over a year. Minimum lack luster updates at best.

If you count the LS – please read no further and it would be an exercise in futility.

Looking Objectively as both games as I have played both quite a bit (Wildstar and GW2) I will tell you this.

Wildstar is what I thought GW2 was going to end up being. I was well aware gw2 would never be gw1 but I had hope at least it would evolve into something great and a hybrid of the current mmorpg style. In didn’t end up that way.

Wildstar is heavily based on GW2 combat but it actually takes it one step further in terms of depth. Combat pve wise in Wildstar blows GW2 out of the water. There is no stack in a corner and win. Or zerg farm everything and win. There are actual tactics and strategy to encounters both solo and group.

One thing I have learned from GW2 is that without a Trinity games end up lacking strategy and combat depth and become nothing more the zerg dps something down. Wildstars trinity is an interesting twist on something many of us have come to love. It brings a new perspective on an old ideal.

If you are a solo player Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a raider Wildstar has content for you.
If you are crafter Wildstar has content for you.
If you are into player housing wildstar has content for you.
If you are into exploring Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a PvPer Wildstar has content for you.

The game is shipping with more content then we have GW2 a year later. Something has to be said about that.

Too bad the entire game looks ugly with goofy wacky cartoon graphics and brings nothing new to the Genre. ;/ Such an overhyped game.

The misconception is you need to bring something new to the genre.

GW2 tried and according to many people it didn’t work out so well.

Also, Have you played the game? The graphic style was chosen for 2 reasons. First off it fits perfectly to the atmosphere of the game. Secondly it cartoon style graphics age far better then what we have in GW2. Don’t get me wrong currently GW2 is a beautiful game. But, in time it will not age well – that’s the price of this graphic design.

The old saying, “If it isn’t broken don’t fix it” may still apply to this genre.

WoW is 10yrs old and still going strong. Matter of fact it still has a larger population then most other games combined including this one.

The game isn’t over hyped – I’ve played it a ton and in my opinion it’s what guild wars 2 should have been. The systems that game offers are many of the things Anet promised and never delivered on.

Wildstar has the best of both worlds. You can play it casual and enjoy it or play it hardcore and enjoy it.

It offers enough content for both sides of the spectrum.

None of that changes the fact that it’s ugly though. o.O WoW has awful art design as well and it just murders it from catching or keeping my interest. I’ve still followed it for a while but in the end it just looks like the same old MMO nonsense everything dishes out every year just with a bad paintjob this time.

Doggie.3184:

Azreell.1568:

Doggie.3184:

Azreell.1568:

GW2 hasn’t changed very much in over a year. Minimum lack luster updates at best.

If you count the LS – please read no further and it would be an exercise in futility.

Looking Objectively as both games as I have played both quite a bit (Wildstar and GW2) I will tell you this.

Wildstar is what I thought GW2 was going to end up being. I was well aware gw2 would never be gw1 but I had hope at least it would evolve into something great and a hybrid of the current mmorpg style. In didn’t end up that way.

Wildstar is heavily based on GW2 combat but it actually takes it one step further in terms of depth. Combat pve wise in Wildstar blows GW2 out of the water. There is no stack in a corner and win. Or zerg farm everything and win. There are actual tactics and strategy to encounters both solo and group.

One thing I have learned from GW2 is that without a Trinity games end up lacking strategy and combat depth and become nothing more the zerg dps something down. Wildstars trinity is an interesting twist on something many of us have come to love. It brings a new perspective on an old ideal.

If you are a solo player Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a raider Wildstar has content for you.
If you are crafter Wildstar has content for you.
If you are into player housing wildstar has content for you.
If you are into exploring Wildstar has content for you.
If you are a PvPer Wildstar has content for you.

The game is shipping with more content then we have GW2 a year later. Something has to be said about that.

Too bad the entire game looks ugly with goofy wacky cartoon graphics and brings nothing new to the Genre. ;/ Such an overhyped game.

The misconception is you need to bring something new to the genre.

GW2 tried and according to many people it didn’t work out so well.

Also, Have you played the game? The graphic style was chosen for 2 reasons. First off it fits perfectly to the atmosphere of the game. Secondly it cartoon style graphics age far better then what we have in GW2. Don’t get me wrong currently GW2 is a beautiful game. But, in time it will not age well – that’s the price of this graphic design.

The old saying, “If it isn’t broken don’t fix it” may still apply to this genre.

WoW is 10yrs old and still going strong. Matter of fact it still has a larger population then most other games combined including this one.

The game isn’t over hyped – I’ve played it a ton and in my opinion it’s what guild wars 2 should have been. The systems that game offers are many of the things Anet promised and never delivered on.

Wildstar has the best of both worlds. You can play it casual and enjoy it or play it hardcore and enjoy it.

It offers enough content for both sides of the spectrum.

None of that changes the fact that it’s ugly though. o.O WoW has awful art design as well and it just murders it from catching or keeping my interest. I’ve still followed it for a while but in the end it just looks like the same old MMO nonsense everything dishes out every year just with a bad paintjob this time.

Difference being it has enough content currently to keep you busy for the next few years.

Azreell.1568:

The misconception is you need to bring something new to the genre.

GW2 tried and according to many people it didn’t work out so well.

Tell me any trinity based game after WoW that did worked out better than GW2 in the western world.

LotRO, AoC, Warhammer Online, AION, Rift, SWTOR ?

Just because an MMO doesn’t reach WoW numbers doesn’t means its totally bad.

Beldin.5498:

Azreell.1568:

The misconception is you need to bring something new to the genre.

GW2 tried and according to many people it didn’t work out so well.

Tell me any trinity based game after WoW that did worked out better than GW2 in the western world.

LotRO, AoC, Warhammer Online, AION, Rift, SWTOR ?

Just because an MMO doesn’t reach WoW numbers doesn’t means its totally bad.

Rift – made a pretty hefty comeback going F2P.

SwTor – had more in game revenue sales then GW2 for 2013.

Warhammer – The one game I loved and wanted to work more then anything else. kitten you mythic.

Aion – Has a larger population then GW2 currently and is actually thriving.

Lotro – Also thriving and doing very well.

AoC – Not a fan of funcom – think this one is on life support basically.

Some of these guys border on being close to Wow in terms of age and most of them have larger player bases then gw2 to date.

Azreell.1568:

Beldin.5498:

Azreell.1568:

The misconception is you need to bring something new to the genre.

GW2 tried and according to many people it didn’t work out so well.

Tell me any trinity based game after WoW that did worked out better than GW2 in the western world.

LotRO, AoC, Warhammer Online, AION, Rift, SWTOR ?

Just because an MMO doesn’t reach WoW numbers doesn’t means its totally bad.

Rift – made a pretty hefty comeback going F2P.

SwTor – had more in game revenue sales then GW2 for 2013.

Warhammer – The one game I loved and wanted to work more then anything else. kitten you mythic.

Aion – Has a larger population then GW2 currently and is actually thriving.

Lotro – Also thriving and doing very well.

AoC – Not a fan of funcom – think this one is on life support basically.

Some of these guys border on being close to Wow in terms of age and most of them have larger player bases then gw2 to date.

While I’m not a huge fan of where ANet has taken GW2, do you have a citation for most of the games you’ve listed having larger player bases than GW2? I’d believe it of Aion because of numbers from the East, but will that still be true once GW2 releases there?

IndigoSundown.5419:

Azreell.1568:

Beldin.5498:

Azreell.1568:

The misconception is you need to bring something new to the genre.

GW2 tried and according to many people it didn’t work out so well.

Tell me any trinity based game after WoW that did worked out better than GW2 in the western world.

LotRO, AoC, Warhammer Online, AION, Rift, SWTOR ?

Just because an MMO doesn’t reach WoW numbers doesn’t means its totally bad.

Rift – made a pretty hefty comeback going F2P.

SwTor – had more in game revenue sales then GW2 for 2013.

Warhammer – The one game I loved and wanted to work more then anything else. kitten you mythic.

Aion – Has a larger population then GW2 currently and is actually thriving.

Lotro – Also thriving and doing very well.

AoC – Not a fan of funcom – think this one is on life support basically.

Some of these guys border on being close to Wow in terms of age and most of them have larger player bases then gw2 to date.

While I’m not a huge fan of where ANet has taken GW2, do you have a citation for most of the games you’ve listed having larger player bases than GW2? I’d believe it of Aion because of numbers from the East, but will that still be true once GW2 releases there?

It’s pretty easy to look up.

Actually Lineage 1 a trinity game is Ncsoft’s highest profit ip.