Guild Wars 2

I highly doubt that it will be a paid expansion. That would go against everything Anet has promised, even since GW1.

They do not like segregating players due to expansions. To some extent, even GW1 somewhat avoided this (extra campaigns/eotn weren’t required). This is why they strictly stick to a b2p model.

Anet’s philosophy has always been, buy once, play forever.

They only charge for one price to access their service and servers, and anything else they charge for doesn’t deny anyone this access.

Kal Spiro.9745:

jokke.6239:

Kal Spiro.9745:

It’s not an expansion, it’s just more Living World. Anyone who expects differently is being deluded. There is absolutely nothing about the trailer that even remotely indicates anything more than Season 3

Quote related to the “Heart of Thornes” pax presentation: “Living World was just the beginning”
.. a 90 min presentation at the MAIN stage ..
The fact that they’ve trademarked “Heart of Thornes” ..
These all reasons to believe it’s very possible we will see an expansion soon.
It will def be big, not just a preview of living story season 3, no way ..

Prepare to be disappointed.

Always, but I dont think I will be this time

There many possibilities with how Anet could approach HoT and personally, I hope it’s free for current players but for new players, a paid expansion that is bundled with the original game. Once a game is released, the price tends to drop. When you release an expansion bundled with the core game, it at least gives a good reason to keep the price up—if only for a while.

Please… not free!

At some point i can imagine that expansion being placed in gemstore..

I’m fine either way as long as we get:

New races.
New large maps (like double the size/number)
New classes.
New weapon types.
New personal story (or continuing the LS as a replacement for it)

I mean as long as the quality is good and all. I’m confident it would be at this point. The last few LS were pretty good. And the way this most recent one ended…

I’d pay $50.00.

I hope it will be a traditional expansion. But considering they were talking about a ‘new framework’ they are probably going all ‘innovative’ on it..

If it was a legitimate amount of content, expansion sized, the size that gw2 is missing after 2.5 years, then id pay 100 dollars for it.

While it certainly is possible for it to be a paid expansion, I just can’t see it. If anything it very well could be an expansion, but a free one. Meaning that we get no Living Story/World updates for a time, then the entire season released at once, in the same manner that it is now. If you log in for the first 2 weeks, you unlock it for free. If not, then you can buy it from the gem store at the current rate per episode. Of course this is just my perception of it, but we won’t know anything until the 24th

It’s been trademarked and they’re a business, it’s not going to be free.

Kal Spiro.9745:

It’s not an expansion, it’s just more Living World. Anyone who expects differently is being deluded. There is absolutely nothing about the trailer that even remotely indicates anything more than Season 3

Saving quote for the future.

Farzo.8410:

Kal Spiro.9745:

It’s not an expansion, it’s just more Living World. Anyone who expects differently is being deluded. There is absolutely nothing about the trailer that even remotely indicates anything more than Season 3

Saving quote for the future.

bookmark it as a permalink lmao.
Even if it’s not an expansion, it wouldn’t just another LS season, makes no sense.

It’s the new LS season. It will be as usual low quality low quantity, but they will present it in a way that we will have to pay each episode 200 gems. Connect won’t deblock it automatically.

Simzani.4318:

It’s the new LS season. It will be as usual low quality low quantity, but they will present it in a way that we will have to pay each episode 200 gems. Connect won’t deblock it automatically.

lmao if that’s the ‘great’ announcement at PAX people will burn the place down.

“We are going to release the same stuff as before, but now you have to pay for it! Isn’t that great! "

Let’s be honest with ourselves, no matter what they announce at PAX South on January 24th, people will be unhappy with the news.

Whether or not it’s an expansion in the traditional sense, people will be unhappy.

Whether or not it’s paid content or free, people will be unhappy.

Whether or not classes / races / skills / gear / levels are added, people will be unhappy.

I don’t intend to visit these forums for a few weeks after the announcement has been made, because no matter how excited I am for whatever Heart of Thorns proves to be, some whackjob on here is going to try to ruin it for everyone.

Welcome to the GW2 forums.

Chrispy.5641:

I’m not worried if there’s a level cap increase or a new level of gear.

No one can rightfully call it an endless gear treadmill/hamster wheel if the hamster wheel was removed from the cage way back in 2013. Your hamster’s been getting a little pudgy since then. Its time to put that wheel back in the cage and let the thing exercise a little.

- I see no reason why I would pay a company to make my existing gear obsolete.
That’s what we’re likely going to see though: making old systems obsolete and providing alternatives. Driving the player population from place to place. Still the same low-quality project management and QA.

Kal Spiro.9745:

It’s not an expansion, it’s just more Living World. Anyone who expects differently is being deluded. There is absolutely nothing about the trailer that even remotely indicates anything more than Season 3

A facepalm incoming in the near future.

Simzani.4318:

It’s the new LS season. It will be as usual low quality low quantity, but they will present it in a way that we will have to pay each episode 200 gems. Connect won’t deblock it automatically.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

lmao if that’s the ‘great’ announcement at PAX people will burn the place down.

“We are going to release the same stuff as before, but now you have to pay for it! Isn’t that great! "

Yes and no.
Yes: I expect Heart of Thorns to be the same living story crap.
No: I don’t expect ArenaNet to SAY it’ll be the same stuff, but now with a price tag. Instead I expect ArenaNet to hype it up (like they are doing right now) and make people think that it IS something better than Living Story… which on hindsight it will probably not be.

So… living story with a pricetag is very likely. Sorry if I sound like a pessimist, but if there’s one impression I have gotten it’s that we should not trust ArenaNet to become good developers all of a sudden after:

• The lies of the manifesto; no grind best joke ever… this game is incredibly grindy
• The neglecting of World vs. World; fall 2012 → spring 2014; spring 2014 → now
• Edge of the mists; not even a wvw map, the people who play on it are PvE players
• The forcing of people into SPvP and desperate attempts at making it an Esports
• The lie of craftable precursors and scavenger hunt
• All the hideous promises: “soon”, “when it’s ready”, “we’re working on it”, “nothing is off the table”
• The addition of things PEOPLE DID NOT ASK FOR and the ignoring of brilliant suggestions of many people
• The CDI project: an obvious means of hushing the players and acting as if they were listening to us.
• The horrible trait locks of the september New player experience
• The so-called Living Story that was supposedly “an expansion’s worth of content”

I have not forgotten yet, ArenaNet. Have you?

Sirendor.1394:

Simzani.4318:

It’s the new LS season. It will be as usual low quality low quantity, but they will present it in a way that we will have to pay each episode 200 gems. Connect won’t deblock it automatically.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

lmao if that’s the ‘great’ announcement at PAX people will burn the place down.

“We are going to release the same stuff as before, but now you have to pay for it! Isn’t that great! "

Yes and no.
Yes: I expect Heart of Thorns to be the same living story crap.
No: I don’t expect ArenaNet to SAY it’ll be the same stuff, but now with a price tag. Instead I expect ArenaNet to hype it up (like they are doing right now) and make people think that it IS something better than Living Story… which on hindsight it will probably not be.

So… living story with a pricetag is very likely. Sorry if I sound like a pessimist, but if there’s one impression I have gotten it’s that we should not trust ArenaNet to become good developers all of a sudden after:

• The lies of the manifesto; no grind best joke ever… this game is incredibly grindy
• The neglecting of World vs. World; fall 2012 -> spring 2014; spring 2014 -> now
• Edge of the mists; not even a wvw map, the people who play on it are PvE players
• The forcing of people into SPvP and desperate attempts at making it an Esports
• The lie of craftable precursors and scavenger hunt
• All the hideous promises: “soon”, “when it’s ready”, “we’re working on it”, “nothing is off the table”
• The addition of things PEOPLE DID NOT ASK FOR and the ignoring of brilliant suggestions of many people
• The CDI project: an obvious means of hushing the players and acting as if they were listening to us.
• The horrible trait locks of the september New player experience
• The so-called Living Story that was supposedly “an expansion’s worth of content”

I have not forgotten yet, ArenaNet. Have you?

If they do this I hope the place burns down.

Please don’t do this anet

nexxe.7081:

I highly doubt that it will be a paid expansion. That would go against everything Anet has promised, even since GW1.

They do not like segregating players due to expansions. To some extent, even GW1 somewhat avoided this (extra campaigns/eotn weren’t required). This is why they strictly stick to a b2p model.

Anet’s philosophy has always been, buy once, play forever.

They only charge for one price to access their service and servers, and anything else they charge for doesn’t deny anyone this access.

Except that the campaigns and expansions of GW1 were required if you wanted access to the new content. Much like traditional expansions.

I’ve also never seen a game have an expansion where, if you don’t buy it, you can’t access the original game or the servers.

As for your buy once, play forever comment, I think you’re misunderstanding what they mean by that. What they’re referring to is that there’s no required sub fee, not that after the initial purchase you’ll never have to buy anything again.

nexxe.7081:

I highly doubt that it will be a paid expansion. That would go against everything Anet has promised, even since GW1.

I don’t recall them every promising there will never be an expansion. Just that there were no plans for one.

And even if they did they already broke most of their promises. Remember the ‘no grind’ one?

TheDaiBish.9735:

nexxe.7081:

I highly doubt that it will be a paid expansion. That would go against everything Anet has promised, even since GW1.

They do not like segregating players due to expansions. To some extent, even GW1 somewhat avoided this (extra campaigns/eotn weren’t required). This is why they strictly stick to a b2p model.

Anet’s philosophy has always been, buy once, play forever.

They only charge for one price to access their service and servers, and anything else they charge for doesn’t deny anyone this access.

Except that the campaigns and expansions of GW1 were required if you wanted access to the new content. Much like traditional expansions.

I’ve also never seen a game have an expansion where, if you don’t buy it, you can’t access the original game or the servers.

As for your buy once, play forever comment, I think you’re misunderstanding what they mean by that. What they’re referring to is that there’s no required sub fee, not that after the initial purchase you’ll never have to buy anything again.

Yes, but the community wasn’t segregated as a whole. A level 20 could still do level 20 content with people. They weren’t separated because the level cap wasn’t increased. In other MMO’s this isn’t true, because they raise the level cap, and you cannot do the new content without extra levels, such as new dungeons, quests, zones, etc. GW1 kept this minimal.

nexxe.7081:

TheDaiBish.9735:

nexxe.7081:

I highly doubt that it will be a paid expansion. That would go against everything Anet has promised, even since GW1.

They do not like segregating players due to expansions. To some extent, even GW1 somewhat avoided this (extra campaigns/eotn weren’t required). This is why they strictly stick to a b2p model.

Anet’s philosophy has always been, buy once, play forever.

They only charge for one price to access their service and servers, and anything else they charge for doesn’t deny anyone this access.

Except that the campaigns and expansions of GW1 were required if you wanted access to the new content. Much like traditional expansions.

I’ve also never seen a game have an expansion where, if you don’t buy it, you can’t access the original game or the servers.

As for your buy once, play forever comment, I think you’re misunderstanding what they mean by that. What they’re referring to is that there’s no required sub fee, not that after the initial purchase you’ll never have to buy anything again.

Yes, but the community wasn’t segregated as a whole. A level 20 could still do level 20 content with people. They weren’t separated because the level cap wasn’t increased. In other MMO’s this isn’t true, because they raise the level cap, and you cannot do the new content without extra levels, such as new dungeons, quests, zones, etc. GW1 kept this minimal.

The whole premise of your argument though was about it being a paid expansion, which was what I was addressing.

You made no mention of how the level cap might increase, and level requirements.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Sirendor.1394:

Simzani.4318:

It’s the new LS season. It will be as usual low quality low quantity, but they will present it in a way that we will have to pay each episode 200 gems. Connect won’t deblock it automatically.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

lmao if that’s the ‘great’ announcement at PAX people will burn the place down.

“We are going to release the same stuff as before, but now you have to pay for it! Isn’t that great! "

Yes and no.
Yes: I expect Heart of Thorns to be the same living story crap.
No: I don’t expect ArenaNet to SAY it’ll be the same stuff, but now with a price tag. Instead I expect ArenaNet to hype it up (like they are doing right now) and make people think that it IS something better than Living Story… which on hindsight it will probably not be.

So… living story with a pricetag is very likely. Sorry if I sound like a pessimist, but if there’s one impression I have gotten it’s that we should not trust ArenaNet to become good developers all of a sudden after:

• The lies of the manifesto; no grind best joke ever… this game is incredibly grindy
• The neglecting of World vs. World; fall 2012 -> spring 2014; spring 2014 -> now
• Edge of the mists; not even a wvw map, the people who play on it are PvE players
• The forcing of people into SPvP and desperate attempts at making it an Esports
• The lie of craftable precursors and scavenger hunt
• All the hideous promises: “soon”, “when it’s ready”, “we’re working on it”, “nothing is off the table”
• The addition of things PEOPLE DID NOT ASK FOR and the ignoring of brilliant suggestions of many people
• The CDI project: an obvious means of hushing the players and acting as if they were listening to us.
• The horrible trait locks of the september New player experience
• The so-called Living Story that was supposedly “an expansion’s worth of content”

I have not forgotten yet, ArenaNet. Have you?

If they do this I hope the place burns down.

Please don’t do this anet

I sincerely hope I am wrong. Can always regain my trust. GW1 was one of my favorite games ever… and it was made by ArenaNet, and it was also the main reason I bought GW2.

That is the wrong question. It be “$30 or $60?”

I think that “Heart of Thorns” will cost something. An offer via the gem store would give them the opportunity to say: “Look, you can buy the product for gold if you have the ambition to do it.”

As I speculated before the expansion will be based on the LW concept but will have a much larger dimension than the seasons before. Since the LW has a bad image Colin and Mike will have to talk and smile a lot to convince the players. They will have to make the clearest statements since many many months.

The panel is also a sign that the things are almost ready to ship. Otherwise they would never talk about it according to their philosophy. I have the feeling that “Heart of Thorns” will start March or April.

Maybe the currently announced “Expansion” isn’t even the “big one” located in Autumn.

Well it would make sense for an expansion somehow. Especially the trademark fact approves that it’s something different then the 2 living stories since they didn’t get it. The personal story works around the hunt for an elder dragon. Another story line around another dragon would be logical to me. In that way a story arc/dragon. And then the big event at Pax (have no idea what it is, but I expect it’s a sort of big game convention) would indicate they’re planning something big. Which would correlate in the assumption of an expansion. The content and aquisition are to be answered somewhere near the future

And personally I don’t really understand why people are always so pessimistic about this LS? I mean the creators probably work long time on it for our players to be released for free (except you don’t login once in 2weeks). Yes it maybe are short stories and ‘only’ 2 maps but I get the feeling some people want a Ferrari for free. And who knows? Maybe the LS was just a distraction/coverup/holefiller between game release and the possible expansion.

Don’t let the Nightmare consume you. Believe in the Dream. :p

Ykfox.3825:

Whatever it is, if it requires money I’m already throwing money at my monitor….

ANet, hurry up and announce it so I can give you money.

I put some cash in my cd-rom drive and the new content unlocked for me shortly after

It could be anything. It might not even be an MMO.

Not sure how you implement a paid expansion in an MMO while allowing for the base game to remain as a valid means of playing. Do recall the model the game was marketed upon was pay once and done. Going against that would raise a lot of criticism and possibly cause them to lose players not heavily invested in the game. It may bolster revenue, but it gains bad press – and while the content may even be good or worth it – going against the founding principles as to why this game succeeded will raise suspicions from a lot of critics. I’d argue it as a worse money-grab than the complaints regarding the focus on gem store item releases.

I would expect profit increase predictions to be made on the pretense that a vast number of players will be returning and/or signing up thus causing more gem store and game sales. With a new trademark, the base game can also be sold under that new name, and also at an increased/release-value price.

As someone with multiple accounts, I do so hope this is not any paid for or at least not very expensive. I’ve spent, what I consider to be, a good amount of money on the game. Never did I imagine Anet would veer off into a paid expansion model. It would be a knee in the kittens to everyone who’s spend cash monthly since launch. Heck, just in December alone I think I spent $50.

For timing, it really should be no later than March 3rd. Would be much better if was January 27th or February 3rd to bank off any hype. Later than that and the news will grow stale.

I expect an expansion costing $50-$60. They might do something cool and let people buy the expansion with gems. Not sure how that will affect the market, but can only imagine that it will mean I can get a whole lot of gold for $10.
I’ve bought gold on numerous occasions just because the exchange rate was awesome.

When they originally talked about the gem store, they talked about only having to pay for the content that you wanted to play. Everything released was cosmetic however, until the living story. The problem with this payment model however is that it makes the game feel like everything is locked behind a series of pay walls. For example, would you rather spend $50 for an expansion, or have to pay $x to gain access to a single new zone.

Considering their PAX descriptions says “be among the first to hear how we’re setting up a new framework for how an MMO can grow its universe.” I really wouldn’t expect them to go out there and show off something old. That would be like admitting that their new methods failed, so they’re falling back to the standard formula. I expect them to announce something different or at least something that isn’t common. Regardless, I doubt it would be free.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

And even if they did they already broke most of their promises. Remember the ‘no grind’ one?

They never said that there would be no grinding at all. After their manifesto, they even clarified that there would be grinding after people misinterpreted what they said. They pointed out legendaries for example as being long term goals for dedicated players. Unlike the majority of other MMOs, there is no forced grinding in GW2. It’s all cosmetics and even ascended is for the most part useless.

DeceiverX.8361:

Not sure how you implement a paid expansion in an MMO while allowing for the base game to remain as a valid means of playing. Do recall the model the game was marketed upon was pay once and done. Going against that would raise a lot of criticism and possibly cause them to lose players not heavily invested in the game.

The game marketing never precluded an expansion, and it was similar to how the original Guild Wars was marketed. They advertised that it has no monthly subscription, not that more content wouldn’t come out that required investment.

In Guild Wars, you could play the base game still or play the separate campaigns (essentially linked-in new games). The one true “expansion” was Eye of the North, and it did not change the ability to play the base game one bit (and plenty of folks still did play GW without EoTN).

Finally, the idea that an expansion will cause bad press or loss of players just isn’t the case. Every single MMO tends to gain players when they release an expansion because of the press, hype, and veteran players becoming re-energized and selling the game to their friends.

Long story short, if this amazing game is going to continue expanding and have a viable content development team behind it for the long haul, we need a paid expansion, and I will be more than happy to throw money at it.

The new content will be both; free and paid for. You can convert your gold to gems or buy the gems outright. HoT will be released April (19th?) exclusively via gemstore.

IIvIIozzie.9250:

The new content will be both; free and paid for. You can convert your gold to gems or buy the gems outright. HoT will be released April (19th?) exclusively via gemstore.

They have previously indicated that an expansion via gem store was unlikely as it would devastate the economy. Try again.

My Guess if its an expansion. A bundled edition of Gw 2, Ls2 and the expac for new players for the price of a new game (boxed and digital). For the existing players, the expac for a decent amount of gems.
In my opinion a healthy quality A game developer needs payed expansions to survive and expand (marketing and hype to get the Vets back and atract new players) . A purely cash shop driven game has its limits.

JLHiggs.6258:

IIvIIozzie.9250:

The new content will be both; free and paid for. You can convert your gold to gems or buy the gems outright. HoT will be released April (19th?) exclusively via gemstore.

They have previously indicated that an expansion via gem store was unlikely as it would devastate the economy. Try again.

I’ll accept your apology on or shortly after PAX.

IIvIIozzie.9250:

I’ll accept your apology on or shortly after PAX.

If I am forced to apologize in the midst of news of a paid expansion (regardless of methodology) and the specter of new content looming, I will be more than happy to take that.

Choo choo,
Early hype train has just arrived! Passengers all aboard!
CHOO CHOO

http://zone-archive.com/tmp/hype_train.html

On the flip side, the best thing to do… is to not board the hype train, possibly completely forget about the game, so that when some sort of LS update comes around, you will be like “oh, nice, neat – think i will play for 2 hours”. Instead of “booo hooo hoo where’s ma expansions/whatever-high-hopes i had”.

Basically. I still have zero expectations of any kind of expansion-like content, and firmly believe that the presentation at PAX will be no more than a slightly-modified LS approach and a lot of trailers and hype-building for season 3.

JLHiggs.6258:

DeceiverX.8361:

Not sure how you implement a paid expansion in an MMO while allowing for the base game to remain as a valid means of playing. Do recall the model the game was marketed upon was pay once and done. Going against that would raise a lot of criticism and possibly cause them to lose players not heavily invested in the game.

The game marketing never precluded an expansion, and it was similar to how the original Guild Wars was marketed. They advertised that it has no monthly subscription, not that more content wouldn’t come out that required investment.

In Guild Wars, you could play the base game still or play the separate campaigns (essentially linked-in new games). The one true “expansion” was Eye of the North, and it did not change the ability to play the base game one bit (and plenty of folks still did play GW without EoTN).

Finally, the idea that an expansion will cause bad press or loss of players just isn’t the case. Every single MMO tends to gain players when they release an expansion because of the press, hype, and veteran players becoming re-energized and selling the game to their friends.

Long story short, if this amazing game is going to continue expanding and have a viable content development team behind it for the long haul, we need a paid expansion, and I will be more than happy to throw money at it.

It doesn’t, though. I don’t think you realize how much ANet monetizes from aesthetic releases in the gem store over game sales. By forcing a paid expansion, ANet may sacrifice part of their inactive/recessive customer base and subsequently lose profits long-term. MMO’s outside of the subscription model frequently release expansions for free and find they have huge spikes in income from players returning from breaks/quitting the game wanting a new experience. WoW and subscription models that ship out paid boxed expansions only see profit spikes during releases because of people buying said expansions to do the new content. Subsequently, many people who play for the expansion content drop out after a month or so again rather than keeping their subscription going as they do not see the price as worth paying. As such, there’s a slow degradation in profits and active subscribers over time. The number of expansion purchases GW2’s audience is a lot more casual as well.

That doesn’t explain how they’re projecting a big revenue boost in Q3, uncharacteristic of previous expectations. Are they planning on a really special aesthetic release? It’d have to be pretty kitten amazing to make the numbers work.

Ykfox.3825:

Whatever it is, if it requires money I’m already throwing money at my monitor….

ANet, hurry up and announce it so I can give you money.

This. Seriously.

I very much doubt it will be a traditional expansion in a box. But I do think it’ll be a gem store content, albeit a fairly large amount, that’ll be part of the Living Story . . . obviously. Downloaded with the purchase. Something along those lines.

But, as always, we’ll see in a few days.

JLHiggs.6258:

That doesn’t explain how they’re projecting a big revenue boost in Q3, uncharacteristic of previous expectations. Are they planning on a really special aesthetic release? It’d have to be pretty kitten amazing to make the numbers work.

It would require you to read the report. The last reported number of sales in NA/EU was 3.5 million. The assumption, by the analyst and not NCSOFT, is that 2 million of those owners will buy a $50€ expansion, spread out between 3rd and 4th quarter.

Jogging over the the Reuters stock page for NCSOFT shows that the mean 2015 income estimates from 32 analysts are down 4% from two months ago and 18% from a year ago. That’s the reality of B&S and GW2 not blowing up big in China and WildStar in NA/EU.

Gabby.3205:

JLHiggs.6258:

From the rumor mill, the company’s earnings calls indicated an expectation of increased revenue during Q3 atypical of their normal projections. If that’s the case, it will be a paid expansion between the months of July and September.

July and September?!
This will be a loooong break.

Well in theory the Living World team is focused on Living World content not expansion content, so we might still get some LW content between now and then. But we’ll only know officially on the 24th. However we might (if convention sticks) get some info on LW next Tuesday

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

nexxe.7081:

I highly doubt that it will be a paid expansion. That would go against everything Anet has promised, even since GW1.

I don’t recall them every promising there will never be an expansion. Just that there were no plans for one.

And even if they did they already broke most of their promises. Remember the ‘no grind’ one?

I remember the no grind one. I remember them explaining on a number of occasions precisely what that meant.

I really wish more people either remembered or paid attention.

It doesn’t mean what you think it means.

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

but I would quit GW2 the instant I see that level cap has been increased and that I have to fix all my characters new gear. I doubt there will be a level increase though, expansion or not.

Right there with you mate. I might wander back sometime after the general total wall of All My Nope began to wear away, though…games that inspire that ‘Gets All My Nope’ feeling in me tend to stay dead in my interests.

UO did it ages ago. Never looked back. WoW did it years ago. Never looked back. SWTOR did it. Never looked back.

Bad feeling to inspire in me, right there. Tends to never actually wear away.

I wouldn’t pay more than 25$ for expansion. Not everyone are in financial position to pay for it, specially younger players(economic crisis ).

Anyway, I think Digital Deluxe (veteran)players deserve to get it for free since we paid more for same content that was around 3 years and bored us(veterans) to death.