Guild Wars 2

Why are people complaining about a lack of trinity?

I don’t see what’s so good about it.

Having defined roles make people feel useful in one way or the other.

Hearing someone saying “You’re an incredible healer” or “You’re an incredible tank” is fun to hear.

Also, encounters can work in interesting and different ways with the trinity.

While there’s nothing wrong or bad playing a game without the trinity, you can still see how the game has become with Berserker fixes almost everything better and faster compared to a group with more defensive characters.

ArenaNet can fix this, but they need to create encounters in special ways to make it sometimes hard for Berserkers, but easier for defensive characters, and vice versa.

Well, look at it this way. Because GW2 has no trinity, the ONLY via me build in PVE is berserker. I don’t know about you, but I don’t like being forced to play berserker in PVE. Also, having no trinity has basically made balancing classes impossible. Tanks are supposed to have tanks skills, and healers are supposed to have healing skills. Now, every time someone wants to change their build, there is only one best build at a time. No other builds can be equal to or greater than the most viable build.

Guild wars 2 is fundamentally flawed because of this.

Galtrix.7369:

Well, look at it this way. Because GW2 has no trinity, the ONLY via me build in PVE is berserker. I don’t know about you, but I don’t like being forced to play berserker in PVE. Also, having no trinity has basically made balancing classes impossible. Tanks are supposed to have tanks skills, and healers are supposed to have healing skills. Now, every time someone wants to change their build, there is only one best build at a time. No other builds can be equal to or greater than the most viable build.

Guild wars 2 is fundamentally flawed because of this.

All MMO’s seem to have issues with class/profession balance and “one best build” issues. Lack of trinity is only one of many factors that impact these two issues.

The most notable issue with regard to professions is that ANet wanted dungeons to be completable with any mix of professions, but also wanted professions to play differently. So, we have differences that mean that some professions are more wanted than others. That is little different than if GW2 had had the trinity. parties would need a tank, a healer and 3 dps — and would discriminate in favor of the DPS profession with the most damage.

The most notable issue with regard to build is that the various builds are balanced for PvP, and PvE plays very differently. Lack of trinity has little impact on this issue. Bunker builds are the target of complaints about being unkillable, just as healing classes are in other games.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Galtrix.7369:

Well, look at it this way. Because GW2 has no trinity, the ONLY via me build in PVE is berserker. I don’t know about you, but I don’t like being forced to play berserker in PVE. Also, having no trinity has basically made balancing classes impossible. Tanks are supposed to have tanks skills, and healers are supposed to have healing skills. Now, every time someone wants to change their build, there is only one best build at a time. No other builds can be equal to or greater than the most viable build.

Guild wars 2 is fundamentally flawed because of this.

All MMO’s seem to have issues with class/profession balance and “one best build” issues. Lack of trinity is only one of many factors that impact these two issues.

The most notable issue with regard to professions is that ANet wanted dungeons to be completable with any mix of professions, but also wanted professions to play differently. So, we have differences that mean that some professions are more wanted than others. That is little different than if GW2 had had the trinity. parties would need a tank, a healer and 3 dps — and would discriminate in favor of the DPS profession with the most damage.

The most notable issue with regard to build is that the various builds are balanced for PvP, and PvE plays very differently. Lack of trinity has little impact on this issue. Bunker builds are the target of complaints about being unkillable, just as healing classes are in other games.

Except the problem goes deeper than just class imbalances. Bad AI is probably the biggest problem along with bad dungeon and boss design. Defiant is a garbage mechanic put in place because dungeons were rushed out the door and Anet has done nothing within a year of release to fix it.

What i thought before the game launched, is that they said, that any profession could be a healer, tank, dps or something else,, Which would be epic, instead it was, self heals,, tanks aren’t really tanky, and everyone HAS to do DPS… The GW1 model was way better. U had, hexers, spikers, healers, support, conditioners, tanks, runners, interrupters, …. i miss it

Also I think that Anet wanted to create something more versatile, but the player base wasn’t actually ready for it, since until now the trinity has got the main presence in almost every mmo.

People should learn to play the game and build their characters not to achieve the best result, but simply for fun.

Follow me on this: until now you had a specific role so you wanted to maximize your role and get the best performance (aka higher numbers popping up). This was the standard to consider you the best in that profession.
You’re a healer? Max your healing.
You’re a tank? Max your defense.

Now we don’t have to focus on one role and this gives us the opportunity to use different builds and enjoy our character as we want, but at the same time creates the issue that everything is killable with a pure dps build because everything is thought to be killable without specific roles.

So players that may not be accostumed to be without roles after years of trinity, simply think with the same mind and go full berserk because it achieves your results, but GW2 is not really a game where you have to think like this.

So again, the scheme is supposed to give players opportunities, but this players prefer to get results because it’s better in this way.

To be honest, I don’t see much problems in this. It depends highly on the player.
You want to enjoy the game? Use the character with your personal build.
You want to farm and kill only to get results quickly? Use your Berserk character.

If Anet changes things, I would be glad if they could make Berserk less useful, but for now you can solve the problem from your point of view by rolling different characters and playstyles based on what you want to do that day. After all every PVE content in the game is doable without being forced to use dps builds.

Before everyone says " ’Zerker is the only build for PvE" keep in mind, that the zerker zergs are out there farming. In order to get your hits in and get credit, yes, ’zerker gear is the way to go.

It’s not the only way. Without a “trinity” I am not bound by a specific role. I can actually do a number of things I would not be able to do if I were pigeonholed into a specific role.

Good luck to you!

Not this again… seriously. Get over it already.

Farzo.8410:

Having defined roles make people feel useful in one way or the other.

Hearing someone saying “You’re an incredible healer” or “You’re an incredible tank” is fun to hear.

Also, encounters can work in interesting and different ways with the trinity.

While there’s nothing wrong or bad playing a game without the trinity, you can still see how the game has become with Berserker fixes almost everything better and faster compared to a group with more defensive characters.

ArenaNet can fix this, but they need to create encounters in special ways to make it sometimes hard for Berserkers, but easier for defensive characters, and vice versa.

That’s the problem, you don’t ever hear ’you’re a great DD’. If you play a DD character, be prepared to wait in line for hours, then get treated like expendable trash.

Also, the problem extends further. Since every class ends up being so entrenched into their group-play roles, you have severe problems playing them in a non-group setting, especially the healers.

The trinity is really a broken system which has be a disease of MMOs for a long, long time but thus far no one has come up with a good solution to fixing it. GW2 didn’t quite get it right, but its a good step forwards.

Xae Isareth.1364:

That’s the problem, you don’t ever hear ’you’re a great DD’. If you play a DD character, be prepared to wait in line for hours, then get treated like expendable trash.

Also, the problem extends further. Since every class ends up being so entrenched into their group-play roles, you have severe problems playing them in a non-group setting, especially the healers.

It gets even worse. Invariably, there is a sub-set of a game’s classes which are only capable of DD. Game balance always shifts over time to make the DPS of those classes with alternate roles equal to those which are DD only, eventually making the classes which can only DD less valuable overall.

ATMAvatar.5749:

Xae Isareth.1364:

That’s the problem, you don’t ever hear ’you’re a great DD’. If you play a DD character, be prepared to wait in line for hours, then get treated like expendable trash.

Also, the problem extends further. Since every class ends up being so entrenched into their group-play roles, you have severe problems playing them in a non-group setting, especially the healers.

It gets even worse. Invariably, there is a sub-set of a game’s classes which are only capable of DD. Game balance always shifts over time to make the DPS of those classes with alternate roles equal to those which are DD only, eventually making the classes which can only DD less valuable overall.

That really only happens once you get too many classes to balance right. Which is why I’m also against making more classes.

Syrpharon.7491:

People should learn to play the game and build their characters not to achieve the best result, but simply for fun.

But the “best result” is what’s fun. Achieving the best result is “fun” in games and most other endeavors; you want the best result, which is fun or desirable.

~~~~~~~

On another note, one thing the trinity does it to help people feel secure. A DPS can focus on his or her role knowing the tank and healer has their back; A healer knows the tank ain’t gonna let a mob kill them (well ideally, at least); a tank knows healer is gonna keep them healthy…

In this way, the trinity provides comfort. There are many reasons the trinity works, that is just one.

In the end to address the OP directly,:

What I see in the trinity is a system where we watch each other’s back. That’s what’s good about it, imo. By watching each other’s back in such a way, you build strong friendships (or shall I say friendship is more common), and it gives one a strong sense of purpose. In a trinityless system people don’t look out for each other as much. Perhaps this is one reason that while some GW2 servers feel so full while seeming so empty.

If you like the thought of a trinity then stand around in Lion’s Arch for 30 minutes pretending to wait for a healer, because that’s what you have with a trinity. If you’re not convinced, wait around for 30 minutes in Lion’s Arch the day after waiting for a tank.

Stooperdale.3560:

If you like the thought of a trinity then stand around in Lion’s Arch for 30 minutes pretending to wait for a healer, because that’s what you have with a trinity. If you’re not convinced, wait around for 30 minutes in Lion’s Arch the day after waiting for a tank.

One problem is that in trinity systems DPS is a dime-a-dozen because it is often seen as the most fun and often carries the least amount responsibility. What developers need to do is spread the responsibility evenly across the three roles* while innovating on each head of the trinity, specifically tank and healer. With respect to healers, WoW’s fistweaver monk was a small step in the right direction in the evolution of the trinity. Perhaps anyone who has experience fistweaving understands what I mean. Once this is done, there will be less waiting around for everyone.

*One way this can be done is through the use of game mechanics outside the trinity proper.

Syrpharon.7491:

Also I think that Anet wanted to create something more versatile, but the player base wasn’t actually ready for it, since until now the trinity has got the main presence in almost every mmo.

People should learn to play the game and build their characters not to achieve the best result, but simply for fun.

Follow me on this: until now you had a specific role so you wanted to maximize your role and get the best performance (aka higher numbers popping up). This was the standard to consider you the best in that profession.
You’re a healer? Max your healing.
You’re a tank? Max your defense.

Now we don’t have to focus on one role and this gives us the opportunity to use different builds and enjoy our character as we want, but at the same time creates the issue that everything is killable with a pure dps build because everything is thought to be killable without specific roles.

So players that may not be accostumed to be without roles after years of trinity, simply think with the same mind and go full berserk because it achieves your results, but GW2 is not really a game where you have to think like this.

So again, the scheme is supposed to give players opportunities, but this players prefer to get results because it’s better in this way.

To be honest, I don’t see much problems in this. It depends highly on the player.
You want to enjoy the game? Use the character with your personal build.
You want to farm and kill only to get results quickly? Use your Berserk character.

If Anet changes things, I would be glad if they could make Berserk less useful, but for now you can solve the problem from your point of view by rolling different characters and playstyles based on what you want to do that day. After all every PVE content in the game is doable without being forced to use dps builds.

What you say is true if this is a single player game.

Unfortunately, this is a MMO game, where you must team up with others to do some of the the content – and that others usually wants efficiency – this is where the problem rises. Without roles, there’s nothing stopping us doing dps only to kill things faster.

Yes, you can play your build – but would others play with you? And yes, PVE content is very doable even if we have a kitten build – but can you do them all solo? I don’t think so.

Stooperdale.3560:

If you like the thought of a trinity then stand around in Lion’s Arch for 30 minutes pretending to wait for a healer, because that’s what you have with a trinity. If you’re not convinced, wait around for 30 minutes in Lion’s Arch the day after waiting for a tank.

And the only person whose fault that falls back on is you (not necessarily “you,” but anyone who ever cries “queues!”).

While this is wholly off-base from GW2, I do have to say: I really have no sympathy for people who preach this as a reason to abolish trinities. Certain people have certain duties, and those duties are rewarded accordingly. Do you want to be rewarded with immediate dungeon queues? Then it is your duty to take up the responsibility of being a tank or a healer. A DPS has very little duty; they exist to make fights shorter while a tank and healer exist to make fights possible. Barring enrage timers, most things could just be duoed by a tank and a heal (I’m talking WoW, or for relevance in GW(1), just soloed by the tank).

But you subject yourself to long waiting times by opting out of these responsibilities; you don’t want to shoulder any of the weight of a run, but want to reap the reward of doing so. Funny thing is, in a world where people took responsibility, I could imagine an eventual scenario where there were in fact so many tanks and healers striving to avoid a lineup, that they ended up creating a lineup for themselves, which could even ironically, comically, provide DPS with immediate queues as the traditional “equilibrium” was offset — but people are lazy and will not invest in themselves as players; they’d rather pout and whine about something they have the power to A) avoid, or confront and overcome.

Truly any player concerned with queues is at the mercy of only themselves, and I’d sympathize with them if they didn’t have the power to make a difference; instead, it is pity. I love tanking; I love healing; I love instant queues.

“X or Y is not my playstyle though!” I don’t care what any one person’s preferred playstyle is. My playstyle is getting sorry heaps off the ground, organized, and actually clearing some content rather than sitting around complaining because “I’m not allowed to bring my ’Giver’s’ Necro on Simin!” If being a team player, by way of providing what needs to be brought to the team makeup for the success of a run, is not someone’s ideal playstyle, then they are not an ideal player to have on a competent team, and while you may not deserve it (that might be harsh), I can say with a degree of certainty that you have indeed earned any pitfall you may receive by refusing to adapt yourself to the environment you subject yourself to (see: perma-Staff clerics who get kicked “for no reason” = for joining a clearly specified speed-this or zerk-that).

bad players cant dodge move or avoid dmg

bad players cant think for them self

bad players want to rely on the trinity so other ppl do all the work

good players know how to build groups and have great synergy (lvl 48 + fractals)

basicly ppl have to depend on themselves to live a lot in gw2 and they don’t like it

They took away the trinity…and we’re ALL DPS…the reasons are 2:
- in other MMOs we were DPS in majority
- they cannot balance boss encounters and PvP

There was no trinity in GW1 at all, its only healer ,dps , or a variety of other interrupt or offensive slap in between.
But all in all EVERY PARTY must have healer and healers are so kitten good that 1 healer itself can preserve 4 members of your party to all harm.
In random pvp party, any team without a monk immediately will lose to the team with 1 or more healer.
1 monk can heal or prevent the amount of 4 damage dealers making the class unlikable to a single player unless your whole character is build to only counter his healing.(not by dps cos you will never win his healing amount)

There was no need for tanks at all, a single healer can turn anyone into a tank or themselves can tank better than any heavy armor professions.

In fact healers are so good that i remembered there was sea of all healers party running non stop (sea of bots) into the next area with the same setup and skills, could faceroll that section of content with 100% success.

I remembered monks are op as hell and some people in pvp has troll builds that cannot be killed by even 4 players (because not every party has a total anti-monk skill setup) and would stand there tank, troll and throw insults at you forever in a match until you quit the match and he wins.

If there was a game that i hate healers the most it is GUILD WARS.

It doesnt have to be the “holy trinity” with tank, healer and dps, but imagine boss encouteres, that needs to be kited, oder CCed, etc. The only way to go right now is Zerker. If you can dodge, you will survive 99% of PvE content, nothing more than dodging is needed, so you dont need defensive items.

But what if bosses would attack twice as fast, with half the damage, so not every attack could be dodged, you have to eat damage etc. This would mean that some sort of support is needed and would make PvE and group-play a lot more interesting. right now you are in a party of 5 people where everyone fights for himself.

E: this doesnt mean, a dungeon should be unbeatable without a supporter, but at least easier, which it isnt right now, with a supporter, your fights lasts longer and the chances to die are higher. There is no benefit for choosing a supporter or tank right now.

messagetogod.9078:

There was no need for tanks at all, a single healer can turn anyone into a tank or themselves can tank better than any heavy armor professions.

Specific content required tanks; yes, there were tanks. (And this is to not even specify between a tank and a terra, where in many cases a terra was a tank, but a tank could not always terra.)

Young Somalia.1706:

messagetogod.9078:

There was no need for tanks at all, a single healer can turn anyone into a tank or themselves can tank better than any heavy armor professions.

Specific content required tanks; yes, there were tanks. (And this is to not even specify between a tank and a terra, where in many cases a terra was a tank, but a tank could not always terra.)

Are you speaking English?
I was talking about Guild Wars.
You could still use a tank, but 2 healers will totally negate the need for a tank.
2 healer > 1 healer + 1 tank

Sarabande.8260:

Stooperdale.3560:

If you like the thought of a trinity then stand around in Lion’s Arch for 30 minutes pretending to wait for a healer, because that’s what you have with a trinity. If you’re not convinced, wait around for 30 minutes in Lion’s Arch the day after waiting for a tank.

One problem is that in trinity systems DPS is a dime-a-dozen because it is often seen as the most fun and often carries the least amount responsibility. What developers need to do is spread the responsibility evenly across the three roles* while innovating on each head of the trinity, specifically tank and healer. With respect to healers, WoW’s fistweaver monk was a small step in the right direction in the evolution of the trinity. Perhaps anyone who has experience fistweaving understands what I mean. Once this is done, there will be less waiting around for everyone.

*One way this can be done is through the use of game mechanics outside the trinity proper.

The thing is, once you start to innovate each role, it starts to move away from the trinity, and unto experimental grounds like gw2 is doing. You’ll make mistakes and have to try things that might not work, and you get these threads complaining about it. That’s the reason why the trinity is still to be cured from MMOs.

The huge flaw with healers is that as a class, you depend on being in a group. You’re very defining role is to support a group and thus if you’re not in a group, well, have fun trying to do anything.

On a side note though, a good innovation on the healer role can be found in TSW’s assault rifle leech healers, where you heal by life draining an enemy and channeling some of the HP drained to a friendly target. Too bad that game gets so little attention, it’s easily one of the best MMOs I’ve had the pleasure of playing.

I think, Anet change this Holy Trinity only because Guild Wars 1 players asked it for. Everybody got frustrated because there was always missing one healer from the party. Tanks were always available but not healers.

When party was yelling LFG for hours just to get one specific monk, it really make whole group nerves tight.

It was very common in Guild Wars 1 that chat was full of this in DoA:

“LFG UA healer, HB healer, Imba, DWG”

Or in some missions chat was full of this:

“LFG UA healer, HB healer”

So players in Guild Wars 1 asked from Anet that they would forget Holy Trinity from GW2 and that’s what they fortunately did

Farzo.8410:

Having defined roles make people feel useful in one way or the other.

Hearing someone saying “You’re an incredible healer” or “You’re an incredible tank” is fun to hear.

Also, encounters can work in interesting and different ways with the trinity.

While there’s nothing wrong or bad playing a game without the trinity, you can still see how the game has become with Berserker fixes almost everything better and faster compared to a group with more defensive characters.

ArenaNet can fix this, but they need to create encounters in special ways to make it sometimes hard for Berserkers, but easier for defensive characters, and vice versa.

What if I tell them “Wow you’re a great guardian player!” isn’t it the same thing?

messagetogod.9078:

Young Somalia.1706:

messagetogod.9078:

There was no need for tanks at all, a single healer can turn anyone into a tank or themselves can tank better than any heavy armor professions.

Specific content required tanks; yes, there were tanks. (And this is to not even specify between a tank and a terra, where in many cases a terra was a tank, but a tank could not always terra.)

Are you speaking English?
I was talking about Guild Wars.
You could still use a tank, but 2 healers will totally negate the need for a tank.
2 healer > 1 healer + 1 tank

Have you ever done a (Hard Mode only, carebear mode is irrelevant) thirty minute DoA or a ten minute Urgoz? Those were not even the world records, keep in mind, and they required tanks. There’s no two ways about it.

Or were you under the assumption that Glaiveway pug tactics with absolutely wretched builds, dual healers included, were the pinnacle of DoA clearance?

Fact is, without a tank in areas such as these, you have no one to quickly ball up aggro for spiking, and cutting a field of enemies down one-by-one will not allow you to finish the City of Torc’qua in as low as three minutes; it is, in fact, quite the contrary. Without a tank, and specifically as a healer, areas like City (with Famine stacked on QZ, energy-denial focused Kayas and Manks, and the environmental effect requiring, in addition to QZ buffing energy costs already, two additional energy, not even per cast, but PER ACTION, such as auto-attacking) are downright stressful, and elongating fights is not an intelligent strategy. Another fact is that in DoA, 2 tanks are a better investment than 2 healers. But even sparing that, you would never take two healers anyway. A single healer could manage the 8-man party because there were tanks preventing other party members from taking damage in the first place, and the 17-minute world record (as well as, I’m fairly sure, every sub-20 minute run) didn’t even include a healer; most of the time they’d just slot Healing Seed on a spiker or not at all…

I understand you didn’t play a very high end Guild Wars; I can see that in your posts, but strictly due to, and because of that, you might find it in yourself to refrain from propagating sweeping misconceptions regarding the structure of the entire game, because you’re likely to appear foolish.

The issue with zerker runs in a loop sort of. Zerker is generally the best for DPS and because it’s the best, everyone has it. Because everyone has it and needs no other armor(it would be a nightmare to hold onto 3-5 sets of armors/weapons for each character), it holds the spot as best armor…you have to have it. If Anet really wanted a game with vastly different boss/dungeon mechanics, they would need to remove stats from armor or allow alterations like legendary weapons.

CoRtex.2157:

What i thought before the game launched, is that they said, that any profession could be a healer, tank, dps or something else,, Which would be epic, instead it was, self heals,, tanks aren’t really tanky, and everyone HAS to do DPS… The GW1 model was way better. U had, hexers, spikers, healers, support, conditioners, tanks, runners, interrupters, …. i miss it

A lot of us fell for that. If GW2 went that direction or had proper trinity, it would be the top MMO by miles but…

Zergs in ’zerkers was easier I guess.

MMO players are 90% DPS so they like no trinity here, because they equate tanks and healers to elitists or something that holds back their ‘awesome pwnage!’ We don’t always want to carry them and they can’t do the roles, so eliminate the roles… Sounds simple, right?

I equate an all DPS MMO, to something like letting all dogs walk themselves in a neighborhood. They would run in large groups, never interact other than sniffing butts, bite everything they see and eventually get hit by cars. No trinity, in a nutshell.

data.4093:

The issue with zerker runs in a loop sort of. Zerker is generally the best for DPS and because it’s the best, everyone has it. It holds the spot as best armor…you have to have it.

You don’t have to have it, you can just not play this game. As nearly 90% of what could be it’s player base, do.

They fester in WoW or play mobas now.

I support the stance on trying an RPG without the holy trinity. There are so many MMOs that already do it and I would just go back to those if that’s the pace I wanted.

It’s almost certain that the holy trinity is the reason that so many MMOs have a dramatically low skill ceiling. For example, many team games challenge you to be responsible for your own safety while you contribute to a mutual goal. People will still be able to tell if you suck.

In most MMOs however, your only responsibility for looking after yourself involves periodically moving out of red circles/cones. And chucking all the blame onto a single person if that’s not enough.

It’s still very much possible for a team to work like clockwork and have routines in most games. Especially if you want to overachieve. But in most MMOs, you don’t do it because you gel well with other people, you do it because you’re forced to. And that will only just about cut it because your chance of success depends more on gear.

Ilmatar.6709:

I think, Anet change this Holy Trinity only because Guild Wars 1 players asked it for. Everybody got frustrated because there was always missing one healer from the party. Tanks were always available but not healers.

When party was yelling LFG for hours just to get one specific monk, it really make whole group nerves tight.

To be fair, this was the narrow-mindedness of the playbase themselves fault, more than anything.

Ritualists were just as effective (and some would say even more powerful) healers as Monks, and plenty were always availiable due to the popularity of SoS builds for solo farming. Their protection was also less direct but in PvE no less effective than a Monks.

Then there was of course Ether Renewel Elementalists who could outheal and outprotect through sheer skill spam any other class in the game, the only real crux being enchantment removal but then this hindered Monks too.

There was also the Necromancer/Ritualist hybrids that were popular for heroes towards the end of the game’s major lifespan. This too boasted healing through brute force of strong health spells and limitless energy supplies.

Heck, as every class had an effective self-heal, if people cared enough to use it once in a while, and communicate with party mates a bit, even a Dervish or a Paragon could provide enough healing to keep a team alive (and at one point the Paragon could outheal pretty much anything, before it got hit with the nerf bat ten gazillion times).

But people weren’t willing to bring anything that wasn’t on PvX Wiki, and as a result most people sucked at build creation, which IMO is what killed all build variety and originality in the game. PvX was a core of rampant narrow-minded elitism. That’s what caused those parties to be stuck there for hours spamming LF Monk, not a lack of variety or options in gameplay styles and party makeups.

Frenk the Vile.2596:

They took away the trinity…and we’re ALL DPS…the reasons are 2:
- in other MMOs we were DPS in majority
- they cannot balance boss encounters and PvP

We’re dps in PvE because of poor dungeon design, not because we need the trinity. Anti-burst mechanics that created a need or incentive for support/specialized roles would go a long way to fixing an encounter design flaw. PvP actually seems to be doing better than PvE where support/gimmick builds are concerned, at least in WvW.

“I really have no sympathy for people who preach this as a reason to abolish trinities. Certain people have certain duties, and those duties are rewarded accordingly. Do you want to be rewarded with immediate dungeon queues? Then it is your duty to take up the responsibility of being a tank or a healer”

I’m afraid that I utterly and completely disagree with that opinion. I can remember EQ1 and every trinity MMO I played after that where players have burnt out and quit the game because they had to play a healer class instead of a class they enjoy. I’m talking about a serious lack of enjoyment from a fun activity. The worst part is that it was the nicer people who always helped their friends out that suffered the most.

This isn’t a small issue by the way. This was a game ruining problem for many, many people. In EQ1 I’d go as far as to say it ruined the game for the majority of the healers.

Trinity = Strategy

No Trinity = Skill-Based

^^^^ This is not true

KotCR.6024:

To be fair, this was the narrow-mindedness of the playbase themselves fault, more than anything.

Ritualists were just as effective (and some would say even more powerful) healers as Monks, and plenty were always availiable due to the popularity of SoS builds for solo farming. Their protection was also less direct but in PvE no less effective than a Monks.

Then there was of course Ether Renewel Elementalists who could outheal and outprotect through sheer skill spam any other class in the game, the only real crux being enchantment removal but then this hindered Monks too.

There was also the Necromancer/Ritualist hybrids that were popular for heroes towards the end of the game’s major lifespan. This too boasted healing through brute force of strong health spells and limitless energy supplies.

Heck, as every class had an effective self-heal, if people cared enough to use it once in a while, and communicate with party mates a bit, even a Dervish or a Paragon could provide enough healing to keep a team alive (and at one point the Paragon could outheal pretty much anything, before it got hit with the nerf bat ten gazillion times).

But people weren’t willing to bring anything that wasn’t on PvX Wiki, and as a result most people sucked at build creation, which IMO is what killed all build variety and originality in the game. PvX was a core of rampant narrow-minded elitism. That’s what caused those parties to be stuck there for hours spamming LF Monk, not a lack of variety or options in gameplay styles and party makeups.

My favourite team in GW1 was and still is my grand hero team. I beat up with them all the missions, dungeons and I did all vanquishing too.

3 Necros (Healer, SS + heal and MM), 2 Ritualists (SOS and ST), Mesmer (Panic + heal) and Dervish.

I didn’t need other players anymore after these heroes. And I miss my heroes so much in GW2.

Galtrix.7369:

Well, look at it this way. Because GW2 has no trinity, the ONLY via me build in PVE is berserker. I don’t know about you, but I don’t like being forced to play berserker in PVE. Also, having no trinity has basically made balancing classes impossible. Tanks are supposed to have tanks skills, and healers are supposed to have healing skills. Now, every time someone wants to change their build, there is only one best build at a time. No other builds can be equal to or greater than the most viable build.

Guild wars 2 is fundamentally flawed because of this.

agree with u all dungeon is faster with full zerkers, all classes diversity is useless in this game, take war, guard, ele, mesm doesent matter use the full dps build, stick together, and kill kill and kill, what about classes abilities? different mechanics? i wrote a topic about that, if u have interest to go deeper on this

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/gw-2-big-change-pve/first#post3251055

i wanna found a solution, cause isnt so fun atm… ppl have fun with this way is ppl that like farm or see big numbers…. i wanna go beyond, trinity is not a solution, but only dps is worse

krixis.9538:

bad players cant dodge move or avoid dmg

bad players cant think for them self

bad players want to rely on the trinity so other ppl do all the work

good players know how to build groups and have great synergy (lvl 48 + fractals)

basicly ppl have to depend on themselves to live a lot in gw2 and they don’t like it

There is no great synergy in this game. All content in the game can be cleared by melee zerk stack, preferably all Warrior. Having a Mesmer or a condition Engi/Necro helps, but ultimately they are not neccesary. Guardian is rarely needed at all since Warriors reach 25 stacks of Might very easily with FGJ, and proper dodging negates thet need for Aegis, healing or any similar mechanics.

And I recommend you to not talk about “bad players” in some way like that. Many of these are just normal players, with limitations implied by their living environment / computer / ping / ability to focus / many other things. The people who can dodge every single attack without even a tell are the oddballs, not the norm.

That’s why people like the trinity. It helps everyone to play together, regardless of any kind of external influences. Whereas when you make an FPS-style action game like GW2 that is based entirely on pressing an invulnerability button at the right time and doing your best to spam GS #2 for 50K damage, obviously its going to weed out most of the “bad players” because only 10% of the population wants to play this way, but are forced to do so anyway by the game’s terrible PvE design.

The “everyone can contribute” design of GW2 applies only to PvP and WvW.

Terok.7315:

Frenk the Vile.2596:

They took away the trinity…and we’re ALL DPS…the reasons are 2:
- in other MMOs we were DPS in majority
- they cannot balance boss encounters and PvP

We’re dps in PvE because of poor dungeon design, not because we need the trinity. Anti-burst mechanics that created a need or incentive for support/specialized roles would go a long way to fixing an encounter design flaw. PvP actually seems to be doing better than PvE where support/gimmick builds are concerned, at least in WvW.

You’re right to a degree. However, Healer, Tank, DPS is not the only trinity. In GW2, the trinity still exists in PvP and WvW because not every player runs around with armor that gives +500 to all stats. The gear that you chose really nerfs your ability to perform other roles outside of that gear (particular, Healing power is the biggest bottleneck to damage performance), resulting in a soft trinity.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Trinity = Strategy

No Trinity = Skill-Based

You can have both, you know. Neither has to be exclusive. :P

The Holy Trinity, according to Anet themselves (Pre-release blogs, iirc) is this:

-Control
-Support
-DPS

“Tank” is classified as Control- someone who controls the fight. Holding aggro as a meatshield is one, limited way to do this. Anet wanted to do more.

“Healing” is classified as Support. Restoring lost HP is one, limited way to do this. Anet wanted to do more.

DPS is pretty straightforward no matter how you ‘slice’ it. (tee hee)

The tragedy/irony is that despite so brilliantly breaking the trinity mold and reclassifying it away from it’s limitations, they utterly failed in implementation. With wonky aggro and no CC, there is nearly no ‘control’ at all. ‘Support’ is limited to granted boons and blasting in water fields. And everyone is simultaneously required to DPS while doing anything else.

The game is flawed to it’s core- there are not enough tools to make meaningful PVE gameplay. From the AI, to Aggro, to Defiant, to the skills available, to making EVERYTHING a condition and thus having one counter to all strategies, team PVE gameplay is broken and unfixable.

That is, unless Anet is willing to change core mechanics and to separate PVE and PVP mechanics. Most likely, we will all just have to live with GW2 being an action game. Which is why I only log in to mess around in the world, make random alts to see the storylines, have only even played 3 of the dungeons, and still only have one 80.

Its about making a person feel as if they are better then others. You will find most supports and tanks are not playing the classes because they want to but because they want to feel as if they are doing more then some one who is playing a DPS.

The problem is that without Trinity, we get Berserker.

That is, having three possible roles to play is a lot more than fun than having just one.

GW2 wanted to do with at least eight professions with different play-styles which can be further customized, but because of how the game is built, your only route to success is to DPS, DPS, DPS, dodge, and DPS.

So people aren’t complaining about abolishing the holy trinity per se. They’re complaining about not replacing it with anything better.

Draco.2806:

The problem is that without Trinity, we get Berserker.

That is, having three possible roles to play is a lot more than fun than having just one.

GW2 wanted to do with at least eight professions with different play-styles which can be further customized, but because of how the game is built, your only route to success is to DPS, DPS, DPS, dodge, and DPS.

So people aren’t complaining about abolishing the holy trinity per se. They’re complaining about not replacing it with anything better.

Easy pve is still easy in any gear set hard pve is imposable in Berserker. Have you tried any of the real hard pve?

Anet did have some great ideas for a damage/ support/ control trinity, but their attempt at executing that in PvE was really terrible. I am not being hyperbolic. It was so bad, that it’s almost non-existant (support is relegated to generalized radius-wide effects and nothing more) to downright contradictory (defiant).

Jski.6180:

Easy pve is still easy in any gear set hard pve is imposable in Berserker. Have you tried any of the real hard pve?

The “real hard” pve, in GW2, revolves around bosses with slow, one-shot attacks, endless health pools, and timed content. It favors berserker gear over anything else, and makes defensive stats completely useless.

i’d like to have some reply from anet…. alot of ppl feel this “zerk mechanism” problem… i hope they will do something asap, i wanna see classes with their trick, differences…
i hate this one-shotted dodge and full zerk situation, gw2 its awesome and should be better then fps

DiogoSilva.7089:

Anet did have some great ideas for a damage/ support/ control trinity, but their attempt at executing that in PvE was really terrible. I am not being hyperbolic. It was so bad, that it’s almost non-existant (support is relegated to generalized radius-wide effects and nothing more) to downright contradictory (defiant).

Jski.6180:

Easy pve is still easy in any gear set hard pve is imposable in Berserker. Have you tried any of the real hard pve?

The “real hard” pve, in GW2, revolves around bosses with slow, one-shot attacks, endless health pools, and timed content. It favors berserker gear over anything else, and makes defensive stats completely useless.

The hard content are the mobs that do aoe dmg that you cant avoid all the dmg and yes the times ones are like this.

Jski.6180:

Draco.2806:

The problem is that without Trinity, we get Berserker.

That is, having three possible roles to play is a lot more than fun than having just one.

GW2 wanted to do with at least eight professions with different play-styles which can be further customized, but because of how the game is built, your only route to success is to DPS, DPS, DPS, dodge, and DPS.

So people aren’t complaining about abolishing the holy trinity per se. They’re complaining about not replacing it with anything better.

Easy pve is still easy in any gear set hard pve is imposable in Berserker. Have you tried any of the real hard pve?

Sorry, I didn’t know players used defensive gear in fractals 51-79 and arah. Would you like me to link you to all of the videos of solos and full berserker teams completing them? Also to everyone else, berserker gear is not a problem just because you dislike it, if you don’t like it then don’t use it, just don’t be surprised if you get booted from groups.

Jski.6180:

Draco.2806:

The problem is that without Trinity, we get Berserker.

That is, having three possible roles to play is a lot more than fun than having just one.

GW2 wanted to do with at least eight professions with different play-styles which can be further customized, but because of how the game is built, your only route to success is to DPS, DPS, DPS, dodge, and DPS.

So people aren’t complaining about abolishing the holy trinity per se. They’re complaining about not replacing it with anything better.

Easy pve is still easy in any gear set hard pve is imposable in Berserker. Have you tried any of the real hard pve?

1. There isn’t any hard PvE
2. Everything can be done in Berzerker including the hardest content…pvp

colesy.8490:

Jski.6180:

Draco.2806:

The problem is that without Trinity, we get Berserker.

That is, having three possible roles to play is a lot more than fun than having just one.

GW2 wanted to do with at least eight professions with different play-styles which can be further customized, but because of how the game is built, your only route to success is to DPS, DPS, DPS, dodge, and DPS.

So people aren’t complaining about abolishing the holy trinity per se. They’re complaining about not replacing it with anything better.

Easy pve is still easy in any gear set hard pve is imposable in Berserker. Have you tried any of the real hard pve?

Sorry, I didn’t know players used defensive gear in fractals 51-79 and arah. Would you like me to link you to all of the videos of solos and full berserker teams completing them? Also to everyone else, berserker gear is not a problem just because you dislike it, if you don’t like it then don’t use it, just don’t be surprised if you get booted from groups.

“just don’t be surprised if you get booted from groups”. Really? After playing this game for the past year, I have yet to see a group actually boot someone for gear choices. Why? because I have yet to see a group actually wanting someone to ping their gear. Speed run or not. Seemed to me that those groups asking for such on lfg.com were the last to filled…I did say “seemed to me” so I could be wrong.

Viking Jorun.5413:

Trinity = Forced routine

No Trinity = Skill-Based

Fixed.