Guild Wars 2

The trinity is really confining now.
That said, playing a game for what it is, rather than what you are used to or prefer is a challenge.
GW1 had problems for my main because I chose to roll a Mesmer. It has no place in conventional MMOs as it dealt a lot of indirect damage and backline support.
GW2 allows me to be more diversity with my mezzing: tank, support, and/or solo.
Even though GW1 had more skills, I have more choice in what I can build for.

Where GW2 combat could be vastly improved is with better AI for profession support (pets, minions, summons). Making these classes more viable within the scope of DPS or Support, and hybrids that should have the ability to contribute both. There also needs to be some work on how conditions work in PvE. They should be as punishing in PvE as they are in PvP. With so many enemies having immunity, DPS is the primary goal.

Id be shot on sight in most pugs but I do run ele 30 in water and carry a full set of clerics gear in my bag. I get away with it because I dont join zerk groups and my hobby is hosting under80 groups in ac. Sometimes splashing them with water the entire time seems to make the difference but other times they dont need it so I put on my might stacking gear and try to might them up. Trying to stay on topic…

You say guardian is a tank but what the guardian is doing is putting up party wide blocks of which he has a finite number till they are on cooldown Your thief has an unlimited amount of blinds which have a similar although inferior effect. What blinds have over blocks is that the are infinitly spammable and what they lack is the ability to stop unaimed attacks. If the thief is blinding the mob is the thief not tanking the mob like a guardian? If you are not stacking bosses, which I can relate to as I find it boring (extremely effective though) here is a super cheese thing to do. Make your party’s guardian as tanky as possible then when someone thinks they might go down they run away from the fight till they lose aggro and their health regens. Even if your entire party runs away the guardian prevents the boss from resetting. Now your guardian is a tank holding aggro and the act of running away is healing.

My small guild rarely stacks so we run around a lot in what looks like total chaos. We did just stack coe path 1 alpha but did not stack coe path 2 or 3. It took us a few tries but eventually we mastered it. It is called not standing in red stuff and dodging the other attacks alpha sends your way and it is an aquired skill it is not random chaos.

Stacking also requires knowhow and skill. We actually are not good at stacking as we are not sure when to block or dodge and our dps is low. So those alpha fights probably took us ten minutes of non stop movement where a dps stack is 30 seconds?

Ohya when one of my guildies was near death id say “run away run away till your health regens” so you know im not above cheese moves.

I just dont think gw2 should have classic trinity. Maybe revamp defiant as it makes your skills useless. Maybe give some boons a greater range so we are not practically forced by the game itself to stack. Maybe make some of the boon fields placeable where the player wants to put them rather than always at their feet. Would be cool if the thief could put the blinding field where he wants like shortbow poison.

Idk if I stayed on your topic op but these are the thoughts your post created.

Imo mob contol like a wow tank having the ability to maintain max aggro is boring.

hendo.1940:

This is why i consider cc irrelevant. Except in some rare cases where the incoming damage is not concentrated on one hit (ac’s howling king, well if it was not hard countered by a pillar)

You consider CC irrelevant because of your misconceptions of what experienced groups do with their CC skills. It sounds to me like you don’t even want it to be relevant despite me demonstrating examples otherwise. If you don’t want it to be relevant, just say so. All I’m saying is that CC can make boss kills extremely efficient and can be the difference between a wipe.

Well it seems like in your post you just mentioned the very few examples of encounters where using an interrupt might be more profitable than on block, as i was mentioning.

And to clarify some things: if the warrior breaks is aa chain whether to dodge or to use mace 5 he is losing dps, if a thief switched from d/d to s/p on a boss he is losing dps, this is why I consider the use of an (non rotation breaking) aoe aegis or reflect much more important, first by their instantaneous nature but also by the fact that the set of encounter in which they are the prime choice is bigger than the one in which CCs are.

Finally I can admit that the use of the world irrelevant might be inappropriate due to its radical nature, so I will replace it by anecdotic.

Sankofa Jimiyu.1567:

GW1 had problems for my main because I chose to roll a Mesmer. It has no place in conventional MMOs as it dealt a lot of indirect damage and backline support.
GW2 allows me to be more diversity with my mezzing: tank, support, and/or solo.
Even though GW1 had more skills, I have more choice in what I can build for.

It’s been a while since I thought of mesmer’s progression throughout the GW1 universe. It started out as a really bad profession, moved to being one of the best tanks with IW since the massive updates to eles, mesmers and necros hadn’t rocked Ring of Fire to the core, became an energy sucking machine only desirable in PvP, started moving up the ladder at being good at interruption and then finally ended on being the support class of GW1.

Quite a ride. The problem I see in GW2 is those kind of changes aren’t as likely to happen since enemies don’t really change. The enemies you fight at level 15 are virtually the same one’s you fight at level 80 – there’s no vertical progression of their skillbars.

Slither Shade.4782:

You say guardian is a tank but what the guardian is doing is putting up party wide blocks of which he has a finite number till they are on cooldown

I ran CM p3 with my guild earlier and we used 5 guardians. It was quite enjoyable to have all of those consecrations just spewing around us.

Hawke.9013:

It works. I don’t mean to burst A-Net’s bubble with the whole, “ground shaking” idea of removing the trinity, but there’s a reason why every MMO uses it. It’s not as frustrating as every mob being uncontrollable; since, with no tank I guess that’s what A-Net wants. As a thief, it is very frustrating to have a boss turn around and one shot you in a split second. Everything PvE oriented is uncontrolled, and very badly structured.

This lack of holy trinity accounts for the reason why the endgame of GW2 is so bad. Raids for example are not feasible since it would be too hectic, and not very fun. Dungeons are the farthest you get, even then as a melee you’d be constantly hopping back to dodge a backswing, that you might as well re-roll Mesmer.

I don’t know about others, but while forming groups for dungeons there is always a need of a tank, A-Net will never officially take away the trinity anyways, guardians will always be there for tanking. As a thief, will always NOT tank.

With the holy trinity everything is controlled and theres no “WTF” unless it’s your fault because you didn’t move out of the bad. WoW’s endgame is very much so superior to GW2’s, and will forever be, unless some sort of trinity is occurring. And GW2 will always be inferior for this reason.

The Holy Trinity works but it doesn’t mean we don’t need something new.

As you can probably see already, a lot of people hate the holy trinity. Personally, I hate it because it wrecks build diversity (no need to consider other options other than your primary role) and that it restricts what a developer can put into a fight (there always has to be a tank, a healer, and a DPS, so you can’t just have a fight where say, the party has to split up into 5 to fight 5 mini-bosses because then it just doesn’t work).

Guardians aren’t always there for tanking. If you look at the sticky in the guardians forum, there’s a guide on how to make your guardian one of the highest sustained DPS classes in the game and play like a glass cannon.

I don’t really understand why a melee wouldn’t need to back dodge sometimes. If you think about a sword fight in real life, its not like the 2 fighters just both stand there bashing at each other with swords on the spot.

I don;t really see what’s wrong with having a raid without a trinity. Destiny said it’ll have raids, and I doubt a FPS is going to have a trinity.

I’m not quite sure what you really want. If you wanted a game like WoW where the combat is more static and encounters are much more scripted, then frankly, GW2 just isn’t your game because that’s what the devs wanted to avoid.

As a final word on the issue. A scripted fight is just that. It’s like watching a play. No matter how great that play is, you’ll get bored of it, because its the same thing over and over.

Not having dabbled in GW2 endgame PvE much, I don’t feel like I can come up with a fully informed opinion on this topic.. But as a former semi-hardcore WoW raider currently on indefinite hiatus (I’m planning on eventually coming back to WoW, I’m not disappointed with the game. I quit for other reasons) I think I might have some valuable input, so here goes nothing. :P

Firstly I do think GW2’s combat system is more interesting than WoW’s. I’m kind of indifferent about the lack of a holy trinity, but it does add an interesting element to GW2’s combat. Everyone is basically responsible for themselves, there aren’t any full-time healers around to patch up your mistakes. As a result the difference between a good player and a bad player is a lot more noticeable at a glance in GW2 than in WoW. GW2 combat requires you to stay on top of the enemy’s every move and time your dodge rolls, blocks, and aegis perfectly just to survive, and that’s not to mention what somebody who knows what they’re doing can accomplish with combos and CC. Compare to WoW PvE combat; “hurrr durrrrr mash buttons, watch bossmods timers, pop CDs when I need them, move when fire appears on my feet hurrrr durrrrrrr”.

Second, I’m not totally sure I understand why so many people seem to want GW2 to be just like WoW. IMO the (minimal) difference between the two games is pretty much the only thing that makes GW2 worth playing. (Well, apart from character customization, but that’s another topic entirely. Lol) Variety is the spice of life, and GW2 is a fun game in and of itself. If you want a holy trinity and a WoW-style focus on endgame raiding and gear progression, do yourself a favor and just go back to WoW.

Moza.2059:

Second, I’m not totally sure I understand why so many people seem to want GW2 to be just like WoW.

I think some people want it to be less like WoW and more like GW1.

In WvW groups when it’s not just a gigantic blob, we have room for many roles front liners (tanks— dat hammer train), support (healers), and dps (backliners).

I don’t think it’s a problem with the combat system at all since it works fine even in a broken environment such as that. It’s an issue of the quality of the encounters— Gw2 prioritizes tactics over strategy, and the later is what people think is everything.

But given how builds like the pve guardian meta builds aren’t total, all out dps, I am starting to question that it’s really just about more dps. Yes, I understand that support and defense just increases dps uptime, but then we’re going into an efficiency issue— it’s not like dps checks are common in this game anyways.

Moza.2059:

Not having dabbled in GW2 endgame PvE much, I don’t feel like I can come up with a fully informed opinion on this topic.. But as a former semi-hardcore WoW raider currently on indefinite hiatus (I’m planning on eventually coming back to WoW, I’m not disappointed with the game. I quit for other reasons) I think I might have some valuable input, so here goes nothing. :P

Firstly I do think GW2’s combat system is more interesting than WoW’s. I’m kind of indifferent about the lack of a holy trinity, but it does add an interesting element to GW2’s combat. Everyone is basically responsible for themselves, there aren’t any full-time healers around to patch up your mistakes. As a result the difference between a good player and a bad player is a lot more noticeable at a glance in GW2 than in WoW. GW2 combat requires you to stay on top of the enemy’s every move and time your dodge rolls, blocks, and aegis perfectly just to survive, and that’s not to mention what somebody who knows what they’re doing can accomplish with combos and CC. Compare to WoW PvE combat; “hurrr durrrrr mash buttons, watch bossmods timers, pop CDs when I need them, move when fire appears on my feet hurrrr durrrrrrr”.

Second, I’m not totally sure I understand why so many people seem to want GW2 to be just like WoW. IMO the (minimal) difference between the two games is pretty much the only thing that makes GW2 worth playing. (Well, apart from character customization, but that’s another topic entirely. Lol) Variety is the spice of life, and GW2 is a fun game in and of itself. If you want a holy trinity and a WoW-style focus on endgame raiding and gear progression, do yourself a favor and just go back to WoW.

My thoughts exactly. Those that like GW2 like it for what it is. It isn’t perfect, but the non-trinity aspect is a major part of why people are still playing it.

Guys what about the Pagan circle thing of MMO Combat? :O

That still exists, although highly ignored.

Uruz Six.6594:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

And in these four roles, support and control were king.

Brutes and scrappers would have had something to say about that.

/e pours another 40 for my SJ/SD scrap, she was so much fun.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

If, while playing the game, the only way you can describe yourself is that you “do damage”, then you aren’t doing it right. You can do a lot of things. Why is it that you should have to sacrifice damage for utility, or vice versa? So many people insist that this must be the case, but I can’t think of a good reason why.

This. As for why, the DPS boat race meta is – from what I have seen – all about facerolling dungeon speedruns.

My highest DPS was a stalker. Kinetic Melee after the assassin strike rework and the release AT specific IO enhancements turned me from a cannon into a mass driver. That said, my strongest toon bar none was my ice control/storm summoning controller, as he was the only toon I was able to successfully solo Ghost Widow on as an Arch Villain (+1).

The PVE DPS race is a bit more than just dungeon speedruns. I made a few elaborate posts on the matter, which are currently my highest rated posts, but in short the way it goes is like this:

Damage and durability share a direct relationship with each other. The more damage you do, the less damage the enemy can fire off before they die. The more durable you are, the longer it takes for you to die, and thus the more damage you can do in the long run. These currently are fairly well balanced, except that the plethora of active defenses in the game that mitigate damage no matter what. This makes it so glass cannons can defend themselves and do a load of damage, whereas the tankier builds don’t as much of a benefit. Since PVE was designed fairly generically, there aren’t many situations that fight against active defense, so the tankier builds are left with little to no perks.

Once you reach a certain level of competence, glass cannon is objectively the best way to go in PVE. Almost regardless of situation.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Uruz Six.6594:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

And in these four roles, support and control were king.

Brutes and scrappers would have had something to say about that.

/e pours another 40 for my SJ/SD scrap, she was so much fun.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

If, while playing the game, the only way you can describe yourself is that you “do damage”, then you aren’t doing it right. You can do a lot of things. Why is it that you should have to sacrifice damage for utility, or vice versa? So many people insist that this must be the case, but I can’t think of a good reason why.

This. As for why, the DPS boat race meta is – from what I have seen – all about facerolling dungeon speedruns.

My highest DPS was a stalker. Kinetic Melee after the assassin strike rework and the release AT specific IO enhancements turned me from a cannon into a mass driver. That said, my strongest toon bar none was my ice control/storm summoning controller, as he was the only toon I was able to successfully solo Ghost Widow on as an Arch Villain (+1).

The PVE DPS race is a bit more than just dungeon speedruns. I made a few elaborate posts on the matter, which are currently my highest rated posts, but in short the way it goes is like this:

Damage and durability share a direct relationship with each other. The more damage you do, the less damage the enemy can fire off before they die. The more durable you are, the longer it takes for you to die, and thus the more damage you can do in the long run. These currently are fairly well balanced, except that the plethora of active defenses in the game that mitigate damage no matter what. This makes it so glass cannons can defend themselves and do a load of damage, whereas the tankier builds don’t as much of a benefit. Since PVE was designed fairly generically, there aren’t many situations that fight against active defense, so the tankier builds are left with little to no perks.

Once you reach a certain level of competence, glass cannon is objectively the best way to go in PVE. Almost regardless of situation.

This.

Woodenpotatoes said the same thing on his recent video “Why Healing power Sucks” except obviously it was in light of healing.

There is no incentive to take toughness and vitality outside PVE. And due to the Conditions fiasco, there’s no reason to that either. Everything is painted in a single tone, and therefore any other role aside from Damage-Dealer is largely pointless. All the boons you need? You can spam them yourselves. All the healing you need? You already have a strong heal in your 6 slot. All your utility? 7, 8, 9. Why would you need someone else healing you or sucking up heavy blows for you at all? You don’t, it’s that reason itself.

And, like Mudbone says, and I’m inclined to agree with him, this game really is for the major single playered. It’s ironic that this is the case because GW1 was more single player-themed than this and yet there things were actually more difficult even on a mass scale with requirements for multiple different roles even if you were the only person playing, using Henchmen instead. In GW2’s case, you’ve an open world, and yet you yourself are sufficient for the game. You could really beat everything in this game with no armor or assistance at all and it’s plausible to say so.

kgptzac.8419:

If you want it to be necessary to take certain classes through content, you end up with “lf healer” and “lf tank” all over again. Nobody wants that.

Sure we don’t want “lf healer”, “lf tank”. We currently have “No necro”, “No ranger”, “heavies only” (lol), and the most controversial “zerk only”. I argue it isn’t inherently better than your hypothetical case.

Those two instances are different.

In the first instance (the holy trinity), you need a healer and/or a tank to do the content. If you don’t have them, you simply are not getting through the dungeon.

In the case of GW2 you can do the content with pretty much any build and any class, the difference is some groups actively look for specific classes (guard etc) and specific builds (zerk etc) in order to do the dungeon content faster and more efficiently. If you are a necro or someone going lolPVTfacetank, then you can still end up getting a group (or simply make your own…) and still do the content.

The two scenarios are totally different.

As for zerk only being “controversial”, well that only seems to be the case with people unable to go zerk who complain about those who can and with people who seem to have no actual idea what zerk groups do.

Xae Isareth.1364:

I’m not quite sure what you really want. If you wanted a game like WoW where the combat is more static and encounters are much more scripted, then frankly, GW2 just isn’t your game because that’s what the devs wanted to avoid.

I think there’s a few misconceptions going around. First of all, the holy trinity isn’t bad. It has worked in dozens of RPG’s for many years, and it still does. The holy trinity is a game mechanic. It’s the idea that in a roleplaying game, each class must fill a role. It’s the idea that you need a healthy mix of classes in any group, to meet the needs of a dungeon/raid (which means DPS, tanking, healing, buffing, aoe spells). It basically adds strategy to a game that would otherwise just be a game of wack-a-mole.

But it is a boring staple of RPG’s, and people are ready for something new. Something refreshing. That said, simply removing the trinity from your RPG is not the answer. Like I said above, then you have a game of wack-a-mole, and that’s not very interesting. GW2 tried to replace it with something new, but they failed. You don’t have to take my word for it, we all know how zerker dominates the game. And we all know how all the one-hit kills basically make building defensively almost pointless. So what you end up with, is basically still the game of wack-a-mole. It’s a game where it’s all about how fast you can clubber those monsters back into the ground. A clear element of strategy is missing.

The initial idea of doing away with the trinity was good, I have nothing against that. And replacing it with a soft trinity of DPS/support/control is also a good idea. But the numbers are skewed. This is mostly due to the way encounters are set up. Monsters do ludicrous amounts of damage, which are not mitigated enough by armor and toughness. Monsters also have a lot of unbalanced abilities, that negate some of the main game mechanics (Defiant and Unshakeable). Those are badly designed abilities.

The reason a lot of bosses have Defiant/Unshakeable, is because Anet did not want players to stunlock their bosses, or keep them permanently blinded. Well that’s a fair point, but don’t you want to prevent players from being stunlocked and perma-blinded as well? And here lies one of the principle flaws of the design, they didn’t solve stunlocking or perma-blind. They just slapped an immunity and resistance on all bosses, and considered their job done. But they didn’t actually fix the problems. Is it any surprise stun-locking is all over wvw right now?

But this also shows poor design of the boss encounters themselves. Any decently designed boss would have ways to defend himself against these things, just like a player would. And if bosses had a decent mix of melee and ranged attacks, along with proper ai, we wouldn’t need artificial gimmicks: Such as bosses going invulnerable and healing to full health, if they can’t reach the player.

In your opinion, they failed. Not in everyone’s.

Berserker gear dominates very little of this game, I wish you’d get through your head.

Condition builds dominate heavily in pvp too, right? Is that a bad thing?

Seven Star Stalker.1740:

There is no incentive to take toughness and vitality outside PVE. And due to the Conditions fiasco, there’s no reason to that either. Everything is painted in a single tone, and therefore any other role aside from Damage-Dealer is largely pointless. All the boons you need? You can spam them yourselves. All the healing you need? You already have a strong heal in your 6 slot. All your utility? 7, 8, 9. Why would you need someone else healing you or sucking up heavy blows for you at all? You don’t, it’s that reason itself.

And, like Mudbone says, and I’m inclined to agree with him, this game really is for the major single playered. It’s ironic that this is the case because GW1 was more single player-themed than this and yet there things were actually more difficult even on a mass scale with requirements for multiple different roles even if you were the only person playing, using Henchmen instead. In GW2’s case, you’ve an open world, and yet you yourself are sufficient for the game. You could really beat everything in this game with no armor or assistance at all and it’s plausible to say so.

And this is the downside of removing the trinity, and not replacing it with something else. You are not as reliant on other players as you would be with a trinity. Don’t get me wrong, I am one of those players who hates standing in TOA all day and hoping to fill in those last two monk-spots on my team. I’m glad they got rid of that.

But in the current state of the game, it feels far too much like a single player game. There is a cooperative element missing, and of course afore mentioned inter-class-dependence.

Because your own healing skill is so potent, you don’t need to rely on another player to keep you alive. And you don’t even have to sacrifice much damage for it either.

Because toughness scales so badly, you don’t need other players to provide you with protective buffs to keep you alive. I remember back in GW1, where tanks would just get destroyed in the Underworld, if they tried to tank an Aatxe without a monk protecting him. And that was a good thing. It made players work together.

Of course soon enough Anet’s love for invincibility skills got way out of control, and perma-sins started dominating the game. Did they not learn a single thing from that? It’s like they took all the worst lessons from GW1, and applied them to GW2. Look at consumables, everyone hated those in GW1, because they dominated the game after their introduction. And look what we have now, consumables all over GW2. I hate it.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Berserker gear dominates very little of this game, I wish you’d get through your head.

Are you serious? You can’t be serious.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Condition builds dominate heavily in pvp too, right? Is that a bad thing?

Why don’t you ask the pvp crowd how they feel about condition builds. Yes, it is a bad thing.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Berserker gear dominates very little of this game, I wish you’d get through your head.

Are you serious? You can’t be serious.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Condition builds dominate heavily in pvp too, right? Is that a bad thing?

Why don’t you ask the pvp crowd how they feel about condition builds. Yes, it is a bad thing.

I am quite serious, and this is what we were arguing with you about yesterday. You keep saying berserker gear runs the entire gear and it doesnt. It is only mandatory for speed running dungeons. Do I need to say it again?

Also, if people hate the condition pvp meta, that’s too bad. That means people just hate necros, apparently, because they don’t want them to have any place in any game mode.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Berserker gear dominates very little of this game, I wish you’d get through your head.

Are you serious? You can’t be serious.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Condition builds dominate heavily in pvp too, right? Is that a bad thing?

Why don’t you ask the pvp crowd how they feel about condition builds. Yes, it is a bad thing.

Well I would imagine that they are serious given the fact that they are correct in their assumption that zerk only “dominates” a small subset of the game. Zerk doesn’t dominate spvp, wvw or open world pve, which leaves what, dungeons and fractals. Dungeons and fractals in which non zerk builds can complete the content and in which if we are being honest, most players are not running zerk meta builds at all.

As for condi in spvp no it is not a good thing (it’s awful infact and a primary reason why we see so many passive cheese play builds), but then comparing a game mode which is competitive with one which is not, is a touch odd. You can do the dungeons as a non zerker, it’s non competitive, but if you go outside of the meta within the spvp remit, then you are borked and you are not going to compete (unless the other players are dullards). If it was impossible to run AC with anything other than a full glass zerk build, then it would be comparable.

Anyone saying zerk dominates dungeons is crazy. It takes up to 30min sometimes to find a certain class in zerk gear. Even then they usually run ridiculous weapon sets or swap out to PVT after linking.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Hawke.9013:

It works. I don’t mean to burst A-Net’s bubble with the whole, “ground shaking” idea of removing the trinity, but there’s a reason why every MMO uses it. It’s not as frustrating as every mob being uncontrollable; since, with no tank I guess that’s what A-Net wants. As a thief, it is very frustrating to have a boss turn around and one shot you in a split second. Everything PvE oriented is uncontrolled, and very badly structured.

This lack of holy trinity accounts for the reason why the endgame of GW2 is so bad. Raids for example are not feasible since it would be too hectic, and not very fun. Dungeons are the farthest you get, even then as a melee you’d be constantly hopping back to dodge a backswing, that you might as well re-roll Mesmer.

I don’t know about others, but while forming groups for dungeons there is always a need of a tank, A-Net will never officially take away the trinity anyways, guardians will always be there for tanking. As a thief, will always NOT tank.

With the holy trinity everything is controlled and theres no “WTF” unless it’s your fault because you didn’t move out of the bad. WoW’s endgame is very much so superior to GW2’s, and will forever be, unless some sort of trinity is occurring. And GW2 will always be inferior for this reason.

The Holy Trinity works but it doesn’t mean we don’t need something new.

As you can probably see already, a lot of people hate the holy trinity. Personally, I hate it because it wrecks build diversity (no need to consider other options other than your primary role) and that it restricts what a developer can put into a fight (there always has to be a tank, a healer, and a DPS, so you can’t just have a fight where say, the party has to split up into 5 to fight 5 mini-bosses because then it just doesn’t work).

You have must have never of played end game raids in WOW, there are many fight that have to have the group break up to accomplish multiple objectives. As for which type of game play restricts the developers just looks at the two end games and it is easy to see which one is more delvers.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Also, if people hate the condition pvp meta, that’s too bad. That means people just hate necros, apparently, because they don’t want them to have any place in any game mode.

I’m surprised you are shrugging off potential balance problems so easily, and instead assuming that people just hate necros. Are you interested in balance at all? Or does it make you feel uncomfortable to admit that the game has some severe issues, which seems to be a popular consensus.

Thanks for the assist Fenrir, was driving to work.

Anyway, pretty much what Fenrir said. There is NO reason to be crying about zerk when any build with any class with any gear can complete any dungeon. It’s a matter of “some very good players can beat Lupicus solo quicker than I can do it in my groups of guildies!” Which believe me, hurts my ego too, because I can’t do it. But it isn’t the gear, it’s the skill. Not every player in the game is going to be able to do it. It isn’t the gear.

Id just like to point something out. If the game really was about just using one role (DPS). Then we would all be running 5 eles in every dungeon. The fact of the matter is that it is not as efficient as running with some support/control roles. These still use beserker gear and dps traits where they can but they sacrifice utility and some traits for support/control.

Its really depressing to see people still dont understand that speedruns wouldnt be possible without the use of cc and support. Pulls, interrupts, blinds, blocks, condi cleanse, stealth, stacking boons and buffs are all integral parts of being efficient. Please educate yourselves before you spew ignorance everwhere.

PS. Defiance is a good system that prevents stunlocking in dungeons and promotes coordinated use of cc to strip stacks ready for important interrupts.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Condition builds dominate heavily in pvp too, right? Is that a bad thing?

this.
the source of the problem.
me, and lots of other people, don’t consider PVP as a part of the game.
why? because ANet themselves don’t consider it a part of the game,
→ PVP is a segregated self sufficient hub not connected to the GW2 world.
→ PVP dont have levels, you get lvl80 toon instantly.
→ PVP dont have the same armors and weapons. weapons and armors don’t have stats they are just placeholders for runes and sigils . the stat com from pre-defined amulets with slightly different stat than the rest of the game.
→ PVP dont have the same runes and sigils.
→ PVP dont have crafting. anything that you can craft in GW2 you cant use in PVP.
→ any item or skin you get in PVP you cant use in GW2
→PVP dont have economy and trade post, because you cant use anything from tradepost in PVP and vice versa.
→ there is only one boring PVP mode (5×5 capture area and hold it for points) that duplicated on seven maps.

and with all the above, we get class balance for WWW , open world PVE and dungeons PVE forced down the throat by the PVP balance team…

as they are separate games they should have separate balance.

Pretty sure balance is based on tpvp. Just saying.

“Holy Trinity” is a Christian thing.
“The Trinity” is a gaming thing.
“Trinity” is a Matrix thing.

That is all.

Seras.5702:

“Holy Trinity” is a Christian thing.
“The Trinity” is a gaming thing.
“Trinity” is a Matrix thing.

That is all.

I don’t get it .-.

The way I see it is this – GW2 was designed so that people were largely self-reliant. This was in part catering to the idea that ANet wanted to get rid of the trinity, but also generally because they were aiming at creating a game where it was possible to solo (without henchmen or heroes). So this meant that they couldn’t restrict people to one role because what is a healer going to do out there on their own for the whole game, for instance?

So now we have a tension because everyone is self-sufficient and builds accordingly. This is great – I have complete freedom to build the way I want to and roam around PvE doing whatever I want to and knowing that I can probably deal with anything that’s going to come looking for a fight. The tension comes in when you are suddenly expected to play as a member of a group in dungeons, fractals etc. This is where that very nice build starts not working quite so well.

This isn’t because the various builds DON’T work with each other (in fact, as several people have pointed out already, they DO synergise very well), it’s just that people are used to playing by themselves and relying on themselves. So they don’t re-spec for parties (not that surprising since it’s not THAT easy to re-build your char in this game). So their builds don’t mesh that well and actually people take the easier route by falling into particular group compositions and particular (DPS) playstyles that work better together even when chars are not built for that specific group, than others.

There is also a problem with people confusing playing the game efficiently and playing the game well. There is indeed a difference. Playing efficiently assumes least time taken for most reward possible. In this game, that is DPS-oriented. It’s not that you CAN’T play any other way, it’s not that you CAN’T run clerics or support or cc (though cc is a little broken, I think). It’s just that people don’t want to bother and so go for DPS. And, as above, because it’s easier and faster to learn to get big numbers with survivability with a Warrior than learning how to do it on another class. So that’s how that comes about, and it scales from there.

I don’t know if this is an inherent design flaw or mechanics flaw (I am never sure which comes under what in these kind of conversations), or just a natural player reaction to various things.

I love be UNHOLY baby !

Spoj The Second.7680:

Pretty sure balance is based on tpvp. Just saying.

Pretty sure you are on spot with this. eSports ftw! Maybe…

I think the problem with GW2 is that PVE content is simply too easy. When every dungeon is being run as a “zerk or bust” mentality there is naturally something wrong with the difficulty settings.

GW1 wasn’t exactly hard either beyond the original campaign (and that’s mostly because the default henchmen used to be terrible). With Hero’s and the like now you barely even need to be an active participant.

I hate resorting to the “if you don’t like it then GET OUT” argument, but the kind of change you are asking for is so fundamentally game changing that it is entirely unfeasible. There are a lot of other games on the market that do utilize the tried and true (if slightly boring) holy trinity and I think you’d probably find them more to your liking. You don’t have to play GW2 if it’s not your thing.

Warkupo.1025:

I think the problem with GW2 is that PVE content is simply too easy. When every dungeon is being run as a “zerk or bust” mentality there is naturally something wrong with the difficulty settings.

If actually people using zerker gear in pve everytime, that would be great.

Dalanor.5387:

Warkupo.1025:

I think the problem with GW2 is that PVE content is simply too easy. When every dungeon is being run as a “zerk or bust” mentality there is naturally something wrong with the difficulty settings.

If actually people using zerker gear in pve everytime, that would be great.

Great in what way? Because the dungeon would not be challenging at any given point or time? Why not just slap a big “I win button” on a golden chest in the first room and be done with it. It’s kind of like grinding up to the highest level in an RPG before fighting the boss; yeah you beat him, but did you really accomplish anything worth talking about?

I play games to play games.

Warkupo.1025:

Dalanor.5387:

Warkupo.1025:

I think the problem with GW2 is that PVE content is simply too easy. When every dungeon is being run as a “zerk or bust” mentality there is naturally something wrong with the difficulty settings.

If actually people using zerker gear in pve everytime, that would be great.

Great in what way? Because the dungeon would not be challenging at any given point or time? Why not just slap a big “I win button” on a golden chest in the first room and be done with it. It’s kind of like grinding up to the highest level in an RPG before fighting the boss; yeah you beat him, but did you really accomplish anything worth talking about?

I play games to play games.

Slapping on berserker gear does not automatically make a dungeon (or open world pve for that matter) a face roll.

It isn’t the gear. It’s the player.

The vast majority of the gw2 player base are not able to succeed dungeons in any gear, let alone berserker. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, anet will not create content that only caters to the skilled pve players (or skilled players in general). I’ll say it again, they won’t even introduce a combo field priority system, and their stated reason is because 90% of the playerbase wouldn’t even know what it was for.

I honestly give zero cats what people wear in or out of dungeons. I do however care that people keep saying things like “nerf zerk OP win button”.

Almost everything pve wise is poor mechanics and mob scripts which promotes berserker builds that revolve around a single weapon

Incorrect. Warrior use greatswords, axes, maces, swords and warhorns as part of their meta builds. Guardians use greatsword, hammers, swords and foci. Mesmers use swords, foci, pistols and then torch and scepter in extremely fringe points. Thieves use daggers, swords, pistols and shortbows, rangers use greatswords, swords, warhorns and daggers. Once again, the problem isn’t with the game, it’s people not understanding the game.

because when a boss just one shots you anyways unless you move behind a pillar or dodge why get toughness or vitality.

Again, incorrect. Retaliate (rT), Emanuel and xsquared have recorded streams and videos of Arah and fractals with full parties of cleric gear, sentinel, PVT and probably other defensive stats. The amount of damage mitigation in this game is massive as demonstrated by the videos – they just press random buttons, soak up hits and eventually the bosses die. For the fractal stream they actually just watched TV while waiting for bloomhunger to die while autoattacking it was that uninteresting. It is using berserker gear which is what makes boss hits one-shots because you lose all of that healing and passive damage mitigation.

Anet advertised and ask yourself how often you see those weapons or skills used or you use them yourself. Condition damage and group support roles need fixing so that they aren’t being shafted in either dungeons or large scale world events.

Condition damage needs fixing, but if you mean “group support” as in you have one player sitting back as a buffbot, no that does not need fixing in any way. Every class excluding necro brings support in a dungeon regardless of their gear or build.

Well it seems like in your post you just mentioned the very few examples of encounters where using an interrupt might be more profitable than on block, as i was mentioning.

So CC does matter then. Also, guardians don’t have infinite blocks and you don’t always have a guard, so CC is actually quite solid for dungeons.

And to clarify some things: if the warrior breaks is aa chain whether to dodge or to use mace 5 he is losing dps, if a thief switched from d/d to s/p on a boss he is losing dps, this is why I consider the use of an (non rotation breaking) aoe aegis or reflect much more important, first by their instantaneous nature but also by the fact that the set of encounter in which they are the prime choice is bigger than the one in which CCs are.

Aegis is going to do nothing about the COE golem spinning. It will just spin, strip your aegis with the first hit then knock you all back. Sure, aegis is nice, but CC does have relevance in this game, you keep falling back on the aegis point but not only do you not always have a guard, but aegis isn’t always the relevant boon needed, sometimes you need that CC, and a player interrupting their DPS rotation by switching weapons or using a different skill is necessary if you want to prevent the party from taking a ton of damage.

I think the problem with GW2 is that PVE content is simply too easy. When every dungeon is being run as a “zerk or bust” mentality there is naturally something wrong with the difficulty settings.

Incorrect. Going berserker for all dungeons is natural progression – you get better at the game so you rely more on active defense and less on passive (tanky stats and traits). The difficulty is fine – good players blaze through dungeons, players who don’t want to go glass or aren’t comfortable with it use less DPS gear and get through the content, just a bit slower.

Honestly, I just wish people would stop coming out with this “PVE is just DPS” nonsense, it literally takes you five minutes to watch a DnT/rT/SC/Kr video, watch the boss fights carefully and then to notice that high end PvE gameplay actually involves a lot of CC, co-ordination and support in addition to damage dealing – and that ANet actually succeeded in their new “trinity” of damage, support and control. The combat system of GW2 is actually extremely well designed, it’s just people after almost two years still can’t get over the fact that the roles in the game aren’t as in your face as other MMOs since GW2 doesn’t lock you in to them and allows you to play how you want.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Warkupo.1025:

Dalanor.5387:

Warkupo.1025:

I think the problem with GW2 is that PVE content is simply too easy. When every dungeon is being run as a “zerk or bust” mentality there is naturally something wrong with the difficulty settings.

If actually people using zerker gear in pve everytime, that would be great.

Great in what way? Because the dungeon would not be challenging at any given point or time? Why not just slap a big “I win button” on a golden chest in the first room and be done with it. It’s kind of like grinding up to the highest level in an RPG before fighting the boss; yeah you beat him, but did you really accomplish anything worth talking about?

I play games to play games.

Slapping on berserker gear does not automatically make a dungeon (or open world pve for that matter) a face roll.

It isn’t the gear. It’s the player.

The vast majority of the gw2 player base are not able to succeed dungeons in any gear, let alone berserker. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, anet will not create content that only caters to the skilled pve players (or skilled players in general). I’ll say it again, they won’t even introduce a combo field priority system, and their stated reason is because 90% of the playerbase wouldn’t even know what it was for.

I honestly give zero cats what people wear in or out of dungeons. I do however care that people keep saying things like “nerf zerk OP win button”.

Thats true, a few days ago i finally found a zerker guard in fractals. With a AH build. So yeah, it’s still not the best (for the group).
Honestly often casuals came up with the excuse that they want to play the game, want to have fun whatever and have limited time. You know what? If you (casuals) actually care about yourself, since you don’t give a skritt about others it seems, think about that if, i mean IF you force yourself to actually learn the content and not afk auto attacking in WvW carebear PVT gear without any dodge, you may finish the instance in less than 2 hour. Maybe. I’m speaking in general, not against you Lilith or Warkupo.
The pug perception is bad. Really really bad. And 1 year behind the meta, but thats another story.

I like trinity, is a proven concept. Why proven? Many MMOs has adapted it and it works, I am not talking about WOW, I don’t care about WOW’s fanboys or haters. Trinity concept has been since used before WOW.

Some MMOs didn’t define the line of trinity clearly and leave some flexibility to players. Some MMOs define the line and expect players to accept it.

All these MMOs generally has a good idea of the concept and able to adjust the concept to fit their needs.

Gw2 challenge the concept and improvise their own, however, a theory cannot be true if it cannot be proven. Gw2 still unable to prove their concept and still trying hard to do so, they have no choice but keep trying to make it work, they can’t simply rework entire gw2, right?

PS: opps, grammar

Dalanor.5387:

Honestly often casuals came up with the excuse that they want to play the game, want to have fun whatever and have limited time. You know what? If you (casuals) actually care about yourself, since you don’t give a skritt about others it seems, think about that if, i mean IF you force yourself to actually learn the content and not afk auto attacking in WvW carebear PVT gear without any dodge, you may finish the instance in less than 2 hour. Maybe. I’m speaking in general, not against you Lilith or Warkupo.
The pug perception is bad. Really really bad. And 1 year behind the meta, but thats another story.

I never really understood this attitude. I consider myself casual, but I also like to learn and I like to improve at whatever game I’m playing. It’s absolutely no fun to stay at beginner level for months and months, and it’s certainly no fun in group content to feel I am not contributing at all. I strongly suspect that several other gamers who consider themselves casual also hold this viewpoint.

I also think it’s wrong to lay the whole “only thinking about yourselves” accusation solely at the casuals player’s door. There are just as many posts from non-casuals telling casuals to play their way or get out. So I would disagree with you on this point.

But yes, I agree that it’s a mystery why constantly wiping in a dungeon is fun for anyone.

hendo.1940:

Condition damage needs fixing, but if you mean “group support” as in you have one player sitting back as a buffbot, no that does not need fixing in any way. Every class excluding necro brings support in a dungeon regardless of their gear or build.

I think there’s a pretty wide gap in what some people would call support. As you said, necros don’t bring support. I would also argue that engineers and rangers lack in anything but unilateral support and nobody likes that kitten because you aren’t “contributing to the team.” 3/8 professions though is pretty bad. Warriors also lack much support aside from banners, although they bring DPS to the table – but that again circles back to how there seems to be a majority of players who prefer to bring some defensive support with them, considering that an easy fifth of the playerbase prefers Guardian.

hannah mee.7925:

hendo.1940:

Condition damage needs fixing, but if you mean “group support” as in you have one player sitting back as a buffbot, no that does not need fixing in any way. Every class excluding necro brings support in a dungeon regardless of their gear or build.

I think there’s a pretty wide gap in what some people would call support. As you said, necros don’t bring support. I would also argue that engineers and rangers lack in anything but unilateral support and nobody likes that kitten because you aren’t “contributing to the team.” 3/8 professions though is pretty bad. Warriors also lack much support aside from banners, although they bring DPS to the table – but that again circles back to how there seems to be a majority of players who prefer to bring some defensive support with them, considering that an easy fifth of the playerbase prefers Guardian.

Ranger spotter and frost spirit is absolutely nothing to dismiss. And engineers can might stack and give vulnerability. So…. Uh. Yeah. It’s still 1/8 professions.

CrossedHorse.4261:

Dalanor.5387:

Honestly often casuals came up with the excuse that they want to play the game, want to have fun whatever and have limited time. You know what? If you (casuals) actually care about yourself, since you don’t give a skritt about others it seems, think about that if, i mean IF you force yourself to actually learn the content and not afk auto attacking in WvW carebear PVT gear without any dodge, you may finish the instance in less than 2 hour. Maybe. I’m speaking in general, not against you Lilith or Warkupo.
The pug perception is bad. Really really bad. And 1 year behind the meta, but thats another story.

I never really understood this attitude. I consider myself casual, but I also like to learn and I like to improve at whatever game I’m playing. It’s absolutely no fun to stay at beginner level for months and months, and it’s certainly no fun in group content to feel I am not contributing at all. I strongly suspect that several other gamers who consider themselves casual also hold this viewpoint.

I also think it’s wrong to lay the whole “only thinking about yourselves” accusation solely at the casuals player’s door. There are just as many posts from non-casuals telling casuals to play their way or get out. So I would disagree with you on this point.

But yes, I agree that it’s a mystery why constantly wiping in a dungeon is fun for anyone.

Casuals are the players who has less time or plays less in general, aren’t they? Sadly, mostly in the forums it turned out to be a negative word to players who just don’t care.
Even if someone plays in a so called “suboptimal gear and setup”, overcoming a challange is still can be fun and enjoyable, however as you said, wiping numerous times isn’t fun. Moving slowly, don’t care about the group or even yourself and using excuses such as you don’t have time, because you are casual i just … i can’t understand. Or when you point it out that actually playing in a group content, it would be nice to be beneficial to the group you know. At least put down a reflect wall or anything, not just equip all the signets and range pew pew.

I admit, my personal experience started the same way. Hell, i even mained a necro for more than a year and started as a condimancer too, but the odd feeling start to grow on me as i get more experienced how things works, that i literally hold back my group when i playing in a “non-optimal” way. I’m an altoholic anyway, so it wasn’t a problem to change characters.

edit: As pointed out above, rangers are fine, just majority of them don’t know how to be the most efficient. Same with engi, but their repertoir is questionable anyway. So yes, necro is the only S tier class currently in pve.

edit2: Oh and warriors can bring firefields, a lot of blast finishers via banners, LB and warhorn, good vulnerabiltiy stacking, Empower allies to further increase group dps. And they are tanky as hell, even in zerker.

hannah mee.7925:

hendo.1940:

Condition damage needs fixing, but if you mean “group support” as in you have one player sitting back as a buffbot, no that does not need fixing in any way. Every class excluding necro brings support in a dungeon regardless of their gear or build.

I think there’s a pretty wide gap in what some people would call support. As you said, necros don’t bring support. I would also argue that engineers and rangers lack in anything but unilateral support and nobody likes that kitten because you aren’t “contributing to the team.” 3/8 professions though is pretty bad. Warriors also lack much support aside from banners, although they bring DPS to the table – but that again circles back to how there seems to be a majority of players who prefer to bring some defensive support with them, considering that an easy fifth of the playerbase prefers Guardian.

That some people seem to equate “support” with no damage heal spammers and tanks is an issue with those players, not with the system.

As for guardians, yes there are quite a lot of them, some of them seem to grasp the fact that they can build for damage and still provide group support.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

hannah mee.7925:

hendo.1940:

Condition damage needs fixing, but if you mean “group support” as in you have one player sitting back as a buffbot, no that does not need fixing in any way. Every class excluding necro brings support in a dungeon regardless of their gear or build.

I think there’s a pretty wide gap in what some people would call support. As you said, necros don’t bring support. I would also argue that engineers and rangers lack in anything but unilateral support and nobody likes that kitten because you aren’t “contributing to the team.” 3/8 professions though is pretty bad. Warriors also lack much support aside from banners, although they bring DPS to the table – but that again circles back to how there seems to be a majority of players who prefer to bring some defensive support with them, considering that an easy fifth of the playerbase prefers Guardian.

Ranger spotter and frost spirit is absolutely nothing to dismiss. And engineers can might stack and give vulnerability. So…. Uh. Yeah. It’s still 1/8 professions.

After playing guild wars 2 since release, I can safely say that I don’t think I’ve ever seen “LFG [engineer/ranger/necromancer].” There are times where I see requests for Thieves and Elementalists for specific dungeons like CM and AC, and Mesmers, Warriors, and Guards are unanimously requested for dungeon runs.

That’s class imbalance if you ask me.

Thats simply because ranger is only a dps increase, with minor unimportant utility. And its rare to find people who play one properly. Engineers usually have a lot going for them but their utility can be covered by other profs so noone would ask specifically for them.

Recalibar.6482:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

hannah mee.7925:

hendo.1940:

Condition damage needs fixing, but if you mean “group support” as in you have one player sitting back as a buffbot, no that does not need fixing in any way. Every class excluding necro brings support in a dungeon regardless of their gear or build.

I think there’s a pretty wide gap in what some people would call support. As you said, necros don’t bring support. I would also argue that engineers and rangers lack in anything but unilateral support and nobody likes that kitten because you aren’t “contributing to the team.” 3/8 professions though is pretty bad. Warriors also lack much support aside from banners, although they bring DPS to the table – but that again circles back to how there seems to be a majority of players who prefer to bring some defensive support with them, considering that an easy fifth of the playerbase prefers Guardian.

Ranger spotter and frost spirit is absolutely nothing to dismiss. And engineers can might stack and give vulnerability. So…. Uh. Yeah. It’s still 1/8 professions.

After playing guild wars 2 since release, I can safely say that I don’t think I’ve ever seen “LFG [engineer/ranger/necromancer].” There are times where I see requests for Thieves and Elementalists for specific dungeons like CM and AC, and Mesmers, Warriors, and Guards are unanimously requested for dungeon runs.

That’s class imbalance if you ask me.

LOL

People thinking Mesmers, guardians, and warriors are the only classes in the Meta.

Please, please please please please go read up on the current meta!

Reasons you don’t see people asking for this class or that class: good groups don’t pug. Speedrunners who “speedrun” in pugs are usually not even playing the meta.

By the way, 3 warriors 1 guard 1 mesmer is so last year.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Recalibar.6482:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

hannah mee.7925:

hendo.1940:

Condition damage needs fixing, but if you mean “group support” as in you have one player sitting back as a buffbot, no that does not need fixing in any way. Every class excluding necro brings support in a dungeon regardless of their gear or build.

I think there’s a pretty wide gap in what some people would call support. As you said, necros don’t bring support. I would also argue that engineers and rangers lack in anything but unilateral support and nobody likes that kitten because you aren’t “contributing to the team.” 3/8 professions though is pretty bad. Warriors also lack much support aside from banners, although they bring DPS to the table – but that again circles back to how there seems to be a majority of players who prefer to bring some defensive support with them, considering that an easy fifth of the playerbase prefers Guardian.

Ranger spotter and frost spirit is absolutely nothing to dismiss. And engineers can might stack and give vulnerability. So…. Uh. Yeah. It’s still 1/8 professions.

After playing guild wars 2 since release, I can safely say that I don’t think I’ve ever seen “LFG [engineer/ranger/necromancer].” There are times where I see requests for Thieves and Elementalists for specific dungeons like CM and AC, and Mesmers, Warriors, and Guards are unanimously requested for dungeon runs.

That’s class imbalance if you ask me.

LOL

People thinking Mesmers, guardians, and warriors are the only classes in the Meta.

Please, please please please please go read up on the current meta!

Reasons you don’t see people asking for this class or that class: good groups don’t pug. Speedrunners who “speedrun” in pugs are usually not even playing the meta.

By the way, 3 warriors 1 guard 1 mesmer is so last year.

You sure?

Read my third and fourth line, and yes I’m entirely completely ultra double triple duper sure.

Oh and what I mean by my fourth line is that a good group has a set group, they don’t need to advertise for their ranger with frost and spotter.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Read my third and fourth line, and yes I’m entirely completely ultra double triple duper sure.

And, would you also mind telling me where I can “Read up on current meta” as well?