Guild Wars 2

Recalibar.6482:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Read my third and fourth line, and yes I’m entirely completely ultra double triple duper sure.

And, would you also mind telling me where I can “Read up on current meta” as well?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons

Thread upon thread of various speed clear builds, meta builds for x class, etc. they’re all over it. Check it out, I encourage you to ask questions. Any forum regular generally has their go to builds in their signatures.

Hawke.9013:

It works. I don’t mean to burst A-Net’s bubble with the whole, “ground shaking” idea of removing the trinity, but there’s a reason why every MMO uses it. It’s not as frustrating as every mob being uncontrollable; since, with no tank I guess that’s what A-Net wants. As a thief, it is very frustrating to have a boss turn around and one shot you in a split second. Everything PvE oriented is uncontrolled, and very badly structured.

This lack of holy trinity accounts for the reason why the endgame of GW2 is so bad. Raids for example are not feasible since it would be too hectic, and not very fun. Dungeons are the farthest you get, even then as a melee you’d be constantly hopping back to dodge a backswing, that you might as well re-roll Mesmer.

I don’t know about others, but while forming groups for dungeons there is always a need of a tank, A-Net will never officially take away the trinity anyways, guardians will always be there for tanking. As a thief, will always NOT tank.

With the holy trinity everything is controlled and theres no “WTF” unless it’s your fault because you didn’t move out of the bad. WoW’s endgame is very much so superior to GW2’s, and will forever be, unless some sort of trinity is occurring. And GW2 will always be inferior for this reason.

This is all kinds of wrong, you are responsible for your survivability, even as a thief, if you keep dying get off the full zerker gear.

Personally when I do dungeons with pugs I bring my sentinel warrior because I just know I’m gonna be picking everyone from the floor with a spatula, is that what you mean by “needing a tank”? Because honestly I can’t (and I shouldn’t have to) take a hit for you, YOU are responsible to keep yourself alive.
And why would you want a holy trinity anyway? To queue for hours waiting for a healer?

As far as end game goes, no, what you have in WoW is a gear treadmill and an expansion on the kings birthday.
You basically sit around town while you wait for the next run you’ve done a million times before.
With GW2 every other week or so there’s something new to do, frankly I would quit GW2 if it got like WoW.
I like GW2 the way it is, can it be improved? Obviously, should it be molded to try to please people that don’t really like it? Absolutely not.

Personally I know of only one other MMO that doesn’t (really) use the Holy Trinity too. But there are many possibilities to cc, what is a big difference to GW2, where everything is short term and useful cc doesn’t exist.

Healing in GW2 is sufficient I guess, but there is nearly no cc and with useful cc I mean some sort of “Let’s cc this mob to deal with it later”

But GW2 could allow this type of cc by eg. adding a defensive stance to one of the various Illusion/Minion/Turret-Skills of each class to bind a mob for say 30 seconds or more – the Illusion/Minion/Turret should not do any damage in Def Stance and the bound mob should not be able to kill it during this time (Aegis or something like that) but stay bound to it. Breaks on Damage.

This would add the possibility to structure the fights a bit more instead of just dodge-zerging.

Recalibar.6482:

And, would you also mind telling me where I can “Read up on current meta” as well?

The video guides by the DnT members are good too.
Warrior
Guardian
Elementalist
Thief
Mesmer
Ranger
Engineer
Necro

Mireles Lore.5942:

I don’t understand the mentality of people wanting to turn this game into another WoW clone.

If GW2 is “so bad” and “WoW’s endgame is very much so superior to GW2’s”, what are you even doing here? Play WoW or the numerous WoW clones. Its like not liking a orange for not being more like apple… If you want an apple, dont eat an orange.

This game was specifically advertised to deliver something other than the WoW clone box “have nothing new for months and years on end” expansions. Believe it or not there are a majority of players that do not come to these forums that may enjoy GW2 for it has promised to deliver, something different then the close minded reskined holy trinity.

There are plenty of holy trinity games out there for you. Not so many games that can offer the experience GW2 offers for many players. Say no to WoW cloning.

This.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I didn’t know dungeons need a tank. #LearnNewThingsEveryDay

I dislike the trinity and very much like what anet has done to keep it out of their game. I like that I have options with each class. I’m glad that my guardian can be a DPS truck and a cleric (not that I would ever do that because why?) but I’m happy to have the option.

Playing how anyone wants is awesome. I’m sorry that without the trinity, however, you are not playing how you want. But trinity games are a dime a dozen, but there aren’t many like guild wars 2. And that’s nice.

There are different options for classes? The majority of dungeon groups only care about berserker stats, nothing else. The way these dungeons are designed and the lack of a trinity only makes ONE build viable for each class. Why bother going tank/healer when you can have 5 warriors hitting 2 on GS every 6 seconds?

Even GW1 had a class purely for healing, which meant problems in missions/dungons were solved and your entire team didn’t have to suffer the dreaded ‘wipe’ every 4 seconds because of the lack of an aggro system. There is no dedicated healing class in this game, which means 2 things in PvE:

• Dungeons are chaotic and the mobs/bosses are uncontrollable.
• Open world PvE such as boss events only require a ton of players spamming 1

Just because the trinity is used in many other MMOs doesn’t make it a bad thing to implement. Anet tried to be ‘original’ and took a step towards ‘Every class can do everything’ and that hasn’t worked. They tried to fix what isn’t broken, and they’ve pretty much destroyed the group system. To sum up PvE: Get zerker gear, spam 1, dodge when it’s required, spam 1 again, repeat.

Games like Rift have solved the problem of only 1 class for 1 role by making each class have multiple roles. Which I was hoping for in this game when I heard there was a trait system, but to my disappointment Anet has infact done the opposite and then removed the only class that was able to handle the chaos in groups.

I don’t really want to bash on the anti-trinity crowd, but dungeons are just not enjoyable when everyone is running one build, and that it’s the only accepted build in the majority of the playerbase.

‘Play the meta-builds like GW1’ – Guild Wars 2

Turgut.4397:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I didn’t know dungeons need a tank. #LearnNewThingsEveryDay

I dislike the trinity and very much like what anet has done to keep it out of their game. I like that I have options with each class. I’m glad that my guardian can be a DPS truck and a cleric (not that I would ever do that because why?) but I’m happy to have the option.

Playing how anyone wants is awesome. I’m sorry that without the trinity, however, you are not playing how you want. But trinity games are a dime a dozen, but there aren’t many like guild wars 2. And that’s nice.

There are different options for classes? The majority of dungeon groups only care about berserker stats, nothing else. The way these dungeons are designed and the lack of a trinity only makes ONE build viable for each class. Why bother going tank/healer when you can have 5 warriors hitting 2 on GS every 6 seconds?

Even GW1 had a class purely for healing, which meant problems in missions/dungons were solved and your entire team didn’t have to suffer the dreaded ‘wipe’ every 4 seconds because of the lack of an aggro system. There is no dedicated healing class in this game, which means 2 things in PvE:

• Dungeons are chaotic and the mobs/bosses are uncontrollable.
• Open world PvE such as boss events only require a ton of players spamming 1

Just because the trinity is used in many other MMOs doesn’t make it a bad thing to implement. Anet tried to be ‘original’ and took a step towards ‘Every class can do everything’ and that hasn’t worked. They tried to fix what isn’t broken, and they’ve pretty much destroyed the group system. To sum up PvE: Get zerker gear, spam 1, dodge when it’s required, spam 1 again, repeat.

Games like Rift have solved the problem of only 1 class for 1 role by making each class have multiple roles. Which I was hoping for in this game when I heard there was a trait system, but to my disappointment Anet has infact done the opposite and then removed the only class that was able to handle the chaos in groups.

I don’t really want to bash on the anti-trinity crowd, but dungeons are just not enjoyable when everyone is running one build, and that it’s the only accepted build in the majority of the playerbase.

‘Play the meta-builds like GW1’ – Guild Wars 2

I really don’t get your crowd. Go play a game that has the trinity, why is that so hard?

I don’t play the meta build, i make my own groups, no one cares. I roleplay and RP walk in dungeons, because they are my groups. Join better groups! There will always be a best group. There will always be a best build. But the wonder of gw2 is that you can do anything you want to, literally, and still complete the content.

Turgut.4397:

There are different options for classes? The majority of dungeon groups only care about berserker stats, nothing else. The way these dungeons are designed and the lack of a trinity only makes ONE build viable for each class. Why bother going tank/healer when you can have 5 warriors hitting 2 on GS every 6 seconds?

Yes, there are. A lot of build is viable, however there are only a few that is optimal.
The whole concept about combat is that every class is capable to do every role (damage, support and control) more or less, which means they are self reliant. Are you aware of the fact, that every class and every build has a self heal skill?

Even GW1 had a class purely for healing, which meant problems in missions/dungons were solved and your entire team didn’t have to suffer the dreaded ‘wipe’ every 4 seconds because of the lack of an aggro system. There is no dedicated healing class in this game, which means 2 things in PvE:

• Dungeons are chaotic and the mobs/bosses are uncontrollable.
• Open world PvE such as boss events only require a ton of players spamming 1

Too much nostalgia blinds your vision my friend. See above, you don’t need a healer. Blasting in water fields is more efficient anyway, without any healing power investment. Bosses can be controlled, defiant can be stripped, they can be slowed by either cripple or chill.
The later one is true sadly most of the time, BUT the most recent event with the knights showed that that is not enough everytime.

The rest of your posts shows that you didn’t pay attention in this thread, so sorry that i won’t react to it.

Turgut.4397:

Get zerker gear, spam 1, dodge when it’s required, spam 1 again, repeat.

You acknowledge zerkers dodge? I am truly amazed.

Heh. Another thread from a person who thinks they’re being objective and critical when all I see is more close-minded posts from these very individuals. I’m pretty much convinced you folks don’t know what you want. All these trinity mmos exist, yet you complain (I’m sure there are posts saying allow us to diversify within the trinity. I’ve heard all the suggestions and the like, past the post I quoted I’m not reading through the rest of this thread.), but when a game does allow this diversity (Wildstar’s just around the corner. I better not hear you kittening.) you still complain.

Well folks, I know what I want – I don’t want to be shoehorned into specific roles. I don’t want to see enemies break their attention off one player just because another is spamming 2, etc. I can go on but I’m keeping this short. It was fun while it lasted but that no longer makes sense to me. If an enemy sees a healer keeping the party alive, that enemy should do everything in their power to stomp the healer down to oblivion. That healer shouldn’t be allowed to sit there on their safe little pedestal doing their thang. Basically what I’m saying is, enemies should be able to think for themselves. Easier said than done, I know.

Don’t get me wrong, Guild Wars 2’s combat leaves a lot to be desired. For instance, I do remember a thread talking about “active defense” and how enemies are not equipped to deal with it, how boon spamming is the plague, etc. I don’t want to go too much into it, but on the whole I was in agreement with most of what the thread had to say. Basic premise I got from it was more varied encounters. I see flaws in the current system and the trinity is not going to fix it for me. It’s only going to make it just like every other game on the market.

Bread.7516:

Don’t tell me you’re one of those “(dumb voice) ooh im an mmo vet and mmos need to be this way)”. Just because most mmos are spank and tank no-reflex games doesn’t make it the go-to method of making one.

This post made me smirk.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I really don’t get your crowd. Go play a game that has the trinity, why is that so hard?

I don’t play the meta build, i make my own groups, no one cares. I roleplay and RP walk in dungeons, because they are my groups. Join better groups! There will always be a best group. There will always be a best build. But the wonder of gw2 is that you can do anything you want to, literally, and still complete the content.

Because this is the game we’re playing right now. I’m no WoW-style fanboy by any means. But I’m pretty sure I’m not the only GW player who dislikes the system.

It’s all good that there are a few groups now and again who just accept everyone regardless of what their stats are, but it’s direction this game has headed, when everyone just wants to rush through dungeons. Boss skipping/stacking/exploiting is all possible and that leads to the speedclear crowd, who end up being the most toxic of any playerbase.

Dalanor.5387:

Turgut.4397:

There are different options for classes? The majority of dungeon groups only care about berserker stats, nothing else. The way these dungeons are designed and the lack of a trinity only makes ONE build viable for each class. Why bother going tank/healer when you can have 5 warriors hitting 2 on GS every 6 seconds?

Yes, there are. A lot of build is viable, however there are only a few that is optimal.
The whole concept about combat is that every class is capable to do every role (damage, support and control) more or less, which means they are self reliant. Are you aware of the fact, that every class and every build has a self heal skill?

Even GW1 had a class purely for healing, which meant problems in missions/dungons were solved and your entire team didn’t have to suffer the dreaded ‘wipe’ every 4 seconds because of the lack of an aggro system. There is no dedicated healing class in this game, which means 2 things in PvE:

• Dungeons are chaotic and the mobs/bosses are uncontrollable.
• Open world PvE such as boss events only require a ton of players spamming 1

Too much nostalgia blinds your vision my friend. See above, you don’t need a healer. Blasting in water fields is more efficient anyway, without any healing power investment. Bosses can be controlled, defiant can be stripped, they can be slowed by either cripple or chill.
The later one is true sadly most of the time, BUT the most recent event with the knights showed that that is not enough everytime.

The rest of your posts shows that you didn’t pay attention in this thread, so sorry that i won’t react to it.

There is 0 nostalgia in my post. Anet added a solution with the lack of controlling aggro. The monk, and later the rit. Infact eles and necros could be off-healers when they wished to.

And yes, that class-specific heal on a 30 sec cd is a good window of opportunity for trash mobs to smack you down when you’ve had to dodge their endless CC.

cranos.5913:

Turgut.4397:

Get zerker gear, spam 1, dodge when it’s required, spam 1 again, repeat.

You acknowledge zerkers dodge? I am truly amazed.

It’s more the fact that it’s the only tactical thing a zerker-zombie has to do in the entire fight.

Turgut.4397:

It’s all good that there are a few groups now and again who just accept everyone regardless of what their stats are, but it’s direction this game has headed, when everyone just wants to rush through dungeons. Boss skipping/stacking/exploiting is all possible and that leads to the speedclear crowd, who end up being the most toxic of any playerbase.

Now and again? Do you even PUG? If you did, you’d know that normal groups fill almost instantly.

Speedclear crowds don’t mind you playing the way you want to. Many people however don’t wanna let “elitists” play the way they want to. I wonder which is the bitter and toxic part of the playerbase?

Turgut.4397:

cranos.5913:

Turgut.4397:

Get zerker gear, spam 1, dodge when it’s required, spam 1 again, repeat.

You acknowledge zerkers dodge? I am truly amazed.

It’s more the fact that it’s the only tactical thing a zerker-zombie has to do in the entire fight.

That’s not even slightly true. A person like that would be kicked instantly. However, people like you are improving. It used to be just “stack and press 11111111”.

I get groups for my fungeons filled in less than 30 seconds normally. By the time we are all inside, the speed clear groups are still waiting to be filled.

Now, my runs take on average, 15-20 minutes longer than had I joined the speed clears, (with outliers being, only a couple minutes longer to a couple hours longer {see Arah p4}) but mine fill quicker, and do get moving sooner.

Dean Calaway.9718:

This is all kinds of wrong, you are responsible for your survivability, even as a thief, if you keep dying get off the full zerker gear.

Personally when I do dungeons with pugs I bring my sentinel warrior because I just know I’m gonna be picking everyone from the floor with a spatula, is that what you mean by “needing a tank”? Because honestly I can’t (and I shouldn’t have to) take a hit for you, YOU are responsible to keep yourself alive.
And why would you want a holy trinity anyway? To queue for hours waiting for a healer?

As far as end game goes, no, what you have in WoW is a gear treadmill and an expansion on the kings birthday.
You basically sit around town while you wait for the next run you’ve done a million times before.
With GW2 every other week or so there’s something new to do, frankly I would quit GW2 if it got like WoW.
I like GW2 the way it is, can it be improved? Obviously, should it be molded to try to please people that don’t really like it? Absolutely not.

so you play a warrior (a heavy armor user with the highest defense) and you get mad that others are dropping while you refuse to take hits for them? Why else would a warrior have the highest defense if they weren’t supposed to take damage?

Personally, i don’t really know why they didn’t just give everyone the same amount of total defense if they intended for everyone to be responsible for their own survival, instead of depending on teammates in order to survive.

If the intention was for heavy armor user to withstand/mitigate more damage with stats rather than avoid damage like lesser armor classes (thief stealth/ele myst form) then i don’t know why they didn’t give wars/guards the tools to maintain enemy aggro.

haviz.1340:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I get groups for my fungeons filled in less than 30 seconds normally. By the time we are all inside, the speed clear groups are still waiting to be filled.

Now, my runs take on average, 15-20 minutes longer than had I joined the speed clears, (with outliers being, only a couple minutes longer to a couple hours longer {see Arah p4}) but mine fill quicker, and do get moving sooner.

And you are able to roleplay.

So true. ^.^

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I don’t play the meta build, i make my own groups, no one cares. I roleplay and RP walk in dungeons, because they are my groups. Join better groups! There will always be a best group. There will always be a best build. But the wonder of gw2 is that you can do anything you want to, literally, and still complete the content.

There’s no reason to do anything I want to.

In GW2 PvE, DPS and “tank” and “healer” all play exactly the same. A Guardian who builds “tanky” still has to dodge all the big OHKO’s someone who built glassier does. An Ele who builds more supportish can never provide enough support to themselves (or others) enough to prevent/recover the damage from the same attacks… and also end up dodging the same attacks.

The only difference between a DPS, tank, support, CC, condition, or any other build in PvE is the amount of damage each one brings. Any other playstyle, even min maxed to the utmost, is not enough on its own to make any difference in the fundamental gameplay.

Your toughness will never be enough to take a hit that a class built with more damage wouldn’t also get killed by.
Your healing power will never be enough to keep you sustained in a fight. Mostly because forgoing the damage you’d cause to build that way makes the fight that much longer.
CC works well enough when coordinated with everyone else in the group… but I shouldn’t have to get on teamspeak to make a playstyle effective and rewarding by interrupting the only attacks that matter thanks to Defiance. It’s easier just to dodge.
Conditions, while effective, are very limited because of the cap.

I don’t want a trinity either. I don’t want a guy on point insulting mobs’ mothers to make them all attack him… and I don’t want to force a guy to watch my HP to the exclusion of all else just so we can succeed.

But I do want those “roles” to matter enough that my gameplay experience changes… and not just in the way that it takes longer to kill things.

Turgut.4397:

And yes, that class-specific heal on a 30 sec cd is a good window of opportunity for trash mobs to smack you down when you’ve had to dodge their endless CC.

Half of them shorter than 30s (19 exactly out of 32 skills) and you can CC trash mobs easily. Protection and weakness helps too, along with blinds. Of course, you can dodge too.
If you personally have issues to not even unable to kill trash mobs in 30 seconds, but the need to use your heal skills, i smell some l2p issue. No offense, it’s just sounds that way. Any detail what class and build are you using?

cranos.5913:

Turgut.4397:

It’s all good that there are a few groups now and again who just accept everyone regardless of what their stats are, but it’s direction this game has headed, when everyone just wants to rush through dungeons. Boss skipping/stacking/exploiting is all possible and that leads to the speedclear crowd, who end up being the most toxic of any playerbase.

Now and again? Do you even PUG? If you did, you’d know that normal groups fill almost instantly.

Speedclear crowds don’t mind you playing the way you want to. Many people however don’t wanna let “elitists” play the way they want to. I wonder which is the bitter and toxic part of the playerbase?

Turgut.4397:

cranos.5913:

Turgut.4397:

Get zerker gear, spam 1, dodge when it’s required, spam 1 again, repeat.

You acknowledge zerkers dodge? I am truly amazed.

It’s more the fact that it’s the only tactical thing a zerker-zombie has to do in the entire fight.

That’s not even slightly true. A person like that would be kicked instantly. However, people like you are improving. It used to be just “stack and press 11111111”.

Yes, as a matter of fact I PUG all the time. 1 in 3 or 4 groups usually just accept all, while the remainder of the LFG system is littered with group ads such as ‘zerk+80 only, 10k+ AP, no noobz pls.’ Quite a deterrent for new players who wish to learn dungeons, but have no means to do so unless they PUG or sit on youtube for hours on end looking at walkthroughs.

And please, don’t twist my words. It’s clearly obvious zerkers don’t just spam 1. It’s just a joke of how effortless the build can be. You know, sometimes they have to press 2 on their GS. It’s quite a challenge.

EverythingXen.1835:

There’s no reason to do anything I want to.

…. Uh well. There’s always the reason that you want to. And it’s a game and stuff.

If that’s not enough I don’t think I can help you.

Turgut.4397:

Even GW1 had a class purely for healing, which meant problems in missions/dungons were solved and your entire team didn’t have to suffer the dreaded ‘wipe’ every 4 seconds because of the lack of an aggro system. There is no dedicated healing class in this game, which means 2 things in PvE:

If you suffer from wipes every 4 seconds it’s a PEBKAC not a problem with the game.

EverythingXen.1835:

Your toughness will never be enough to take a hit that a class built with more damage wouldn’t also get killed by.

Actually there are videos of an ele facetanking lupi so dunno what you are talking about here.

As for the rest of your post… Roles aren’t gear based, but class/traits/skills based. AH guard plays totally different from a meta guard for example.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

EverythingXen.1835:

There’s no reason to do anything I want to.

…. Uh well. There’s always the reason that you want to. And it’s a game and stuff.

If that’s not enough I don’t think I can help you.

You cant.

I want the PvE game to play differently based on my class, build and gear.

And it doesn’t.

EverythingXen.1835:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I don’t play the meta build, i make my own groups, no one cares. I roleplay and RP walk in dungeons, because they are my groups. Join better groups! There will always be a best group. There will always be a best build. But the wonder of gw2 is that you can do anything you want to, literally, and still complete the content.

There’s no reason to do anything I want to.

In GW2 PvE, DPS and “tank” and “healer” all play exactly the same. A Guardian who builds “tanky” still has to dodge all the big OHKO’s someone who built glassier does. An Ele who builds more supportish can never provide enough support to themselves (or others) enough to prevent/recover the damage from the same attacks… and also end up dodging the same attacks.

The only difference between a DPS, tank, support, CC, condition, or any other build in PvE is the amount of damage each one brings. Any other playstyle, even min maxed to the utmost, is not enough on its own to make any difference in the fundamental gameplay.

Your toughness will never be enough to take a hit that a class built with more damage wouldn’t also get killed by.
Your healing power will never be enough to keep you sustained in a fight. Mostly because forgoing the damage you’d cause to build that way makes the fight that much longer.
CC works well enough when coordinated with everyone else in the group… but I shouldn’t have to get on teamspeak to make a playstyle effective and rewarding by interrupting the only attacks that matter thanks to Defiance. It’s easier just to dodge.
Conditions, while effective, are very limited because of the cap.

I don’t want a trinity either. I don’t want a guy on point insulting mobs’ mothers to make them all attack him… and I don’t want to force a guy to watch my HP to the exclusion of all else just so we can succeed.

But I do want those “roles” to matter enough that my gameplay experience changes… and not just in the way that it takes longer to kill things.

I agree on everything besides your narrow interpretation of trinity roles. A healer can get by watching bars, but a GOOD healer watches the combat to anticipate attacks for big/small heals, watches for dps pulling aggro, etc. Same for tank/dps…if you explain what the class brings to the table at a bare minimum then of course it’s going to sound boring.

Personally, i like the way LoL handles teams roles and i think GW2 could take betters notes from that than WoW. But i do miss the interdependence and teamwork from WoW compared to the 5 people soloing a dungeon together in GW2.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Ranger spotter and frost spirit is absolutely nothing to dismiss. And engineers can might stack and give vulnerability. So…. Uh. Yeah. It’s still 1/8 professions.

And nobody’s taking along ranger spotters or engineers most of the time. Rangers are fun with an accepting, organized party; engineers are great for PUGs and everyone agrees necromancers have been shafted. Yet nobody asks for them most of the time, or they won’t accept them unless it’s a very lax run. Why? Because their roles are trivial, at best. Without any rigid role structure (like the trinity), the endgame migrates toward dropping professions that bring the least amount of usefulness for their position. Yes, you can take a spotter ranger or an engineer but taking an elementalist is a far better alternative, if available. Rangers, engineers and necromancers don’t shine in the endgame.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons

Thread upon thread of various speed clear builds, meta builds for x class, etc. they’re all over it. Check it out, I encourage you to ask questions. Any forum regular generally has their go to builds in their signatures.

Have you been to that subforum yourself? You can find maybe 1 helpful thread every 3 pages and that’s pushing it. Also, you failed to mention that thieves and elementalists are all over the meta. Not sure if intentional or you just really don’t want to accept that Recalibar has a point and you don’t.

My serious advice though to anyone having trouble with the endgame being broken (because it is) is to find a good guild. Most guilds worth their salt won’t reject someone for being a lax bearbow spirit ranger or an engineer or even a necromancer. Why? Because good people are good people, regardless of the profession they choose to play. Bad players, not good players, are going to be the ones kicking you from the group because FGS > Frost Spirit. PUGs and speedruns are cancerous problems established by the community that only exist if you can’t organize any other run.

EverythingXen.1835:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

EverythingXen.1835:

There’s no reason to do anything I want to.

…. Uh well. There’s always the reason that you want to. And it’s a game and stuff.

If that’s not enough I don’t think I can help you.

You cant.

I want the PvE game to play differently based on my class, build and gear.

And it doesn’t.

Except it does. You can infact facetank (most of the content) when built defensively, try doing that with a full glass build. And are you suggesting full bunker cleric or PVT AH guard plays the same as the dps guard meta build?

Dean Calaway.9718:

This is all kinds of wrong, you are responsible for your survivability, even as a thief, if you keep dying get off the full zerker gear.

I find this sort of thing confusing. Not the statement itself. I fully support that if you can’t play zerker, or find that you are dying more than you feel you should in zerker gear, then find something that gives you more toughness, you’ll be more help to the team.

However, the same people who tell me that there’s literally no point playing anything other than zerker and the same people who don’t allow others to learn to play on zerker. It’s quite literally “play zerker or get out. But you’re bad at zerker. So you’re bad. Get out.”

That is just terrible advice and I think promotes this feeling where people think they have no role to play. Now, in a speedrun dungeon group, efficiency is obviously key, so I understand gear/build checks etc. I have no issues with that. but in a regular dungeon run, where efficiency isn’t necessarily the goal, there are numerous roles within DPS, control, tank, support or a mixture of some of these to play – you just need to find the group to run with. In my guild, I have run a couple of dungeons as a Necromancer. Is there a defined role, not strictly, but I chucked blinds around like a pro, lol, and I also brought skills to convert conditions on my allies to boons, which is really useful. So, no, there’s no DEFINED role, but you have a part to play and it’s good to realise that.

But if on the one hand I’m being told I’m no use if I’m not in zerker, but then if I switch to zerker and get downed once I get told I’m just a casual bad …

Out of curiosity, what is the highest damage that a boss can do against let’s say a zerker ele? Since everybody else would take less damage than an ele.
Mossman’s double chop and Lupi kick seems to be the top2. Anything else?

To those who say there are no healers in this game, it’s not even true. They’re just not needed. A fully heal built guardian can give a full heal to the whole group every 20 sec or so by combining all their AoE heals, regen, symbols etc. It requires stacking (oh the humanity!) so it might not be to the taste of the actual play as you want who would prefer to run around like headless chicken more.

Healers aren’t needed but if you complain that there is no class that can heal then it’s wrong. There are no real tanks though, since the basic premise of tanking is taking hits so that other people don’t take hits, which doesn’t work without a concept of controlled aggro. Healers do exist, and dramatically change the gameplay since you can pretty much watch tv while doing dungeons if you intend to play that way.

But when it comes to healing this game is actually over the top and you should watch dub’s videos of facetanking lupi with dodge key unbound to understand the kind of monster you want to unleash. If anything healing builds need a nerf.

Dalanor.5387:

Out of curiosity, what is the highest damage that a boss can do against let’s say a zerker ele? Since everybody else would take less damage than an ele.
Mossman’s double chop and Lupi kick seems to be the top2. Anything else?

Arch diviner auto attack at 49 one shots most classes. Warrior gets hit for about 95% of his hp (they might be the only class that can survive a hit in zerker).

Someone said earlier, and I will not quote it, that they like not having the trinity. They feel it gives their character more “options”. Please tell me you play GW2 PvE…..its “Go Zerk or go home” period. No options. And then in all but 1 game mode(the balanced one) only 3 classes have “true” viability. Sure, for WvW and PvE, the class make up is SLIGHTLY different. Mainly one leans to Ele and the other leans towards Mes. There is no true options in this game and now it is a total grind fest with Ascended. Sorry, but the crafting system in this game is the absolute worst I have seen in any game. So, your forced to grind that bore just to get Ascended…….this game is dying. Trinity could have stalled it, because then you would have really had options…a reason to use 80% of the gear that drops.

Scrambles.2604:

So you play a warrior (a heavy armor user with the highest defense) and you get mad that others are dropping while you refuse to take hits for them? Why else would a warrior have the highest defense if they weren’t supposed to take damage?

Personally, i don’t really know why they didn’t just give everyone the same amount of total defense if they intended for everyone to be responsible for their own survival, instead of depending on teammates in order to survive.

Health and armor are only one means to generate sustainability. Guards have heavy armor and a lot of mitigation options, but low health. Warriors have heavy armor, less mitigation options, and high health. Thieves have medium armor, low health, but have a lot of dodge/evasion. Etc.

Argue all you want about whether there is sustainability balance between professions, but heavy armor is not meant to allow you to just take hits.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Slapping on berserker gear does not automatically make a dungeon (or open world pve for that matter) a face roll.

It isn’t the gear. It’s the player.

So true. GW2 quasi-action combat makes player twitch reactions very important to survival.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

The vast majority of the gw2 player base are not able to succeed dungeons in any gear, let alone berserker. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, anet will not create content that only caters to the skilled pve players (or skilled players in general). I’ll say it again, they won’t even introduce a combo field priority system, and their stated reason is because 90% of the playerbase wouldn’t even know what it was for.

That’s certainly been my experience in GW2 dungeons. Fact is, if ANet ever did make dungeon mob AI more like players, a fraction of those doing dungeons now would still do them. As it is now, random groups and guild groups can complete many paths using very little coordination. Make those paths play more like PvP — and keep mob health, damage and toughness as it is now — and that number would drop.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

I honestly give zero cats what people wear in or out of dungeons. I do however care that people keep saying things like “nerf zerk OP win button”.

Ferocity as presented seems like an attempt to get glass damage closer to (probably just under) where is was before Ascended was introduced. Since crit damage benefited more from Ascended trinkets than other stats did, this does not seem to be unwarranted. I would not welcome further nerfs to glass builds, however.

Dagnaggit.5086:

Someone said earlier, and I will not quote it, that they like not having the trinity. They feel it gives their character more “options”. Please tell me you play GW2 PvE…..its “Go Zerk or go home” period. No options.

So it’s impossible to do the content as a non meta/zerk build?

So no one right at this very moment is actually running a dungeon in non zerk gear?

The “options” are there, what we are seeing in here is some of the “play how I want” crowd spitting their dummy out because their “option” is not quite as fast as those building for speed clears. Boo hoo.

Dalanor.5387:

Turgut.4397:

And yes, that class-specific heal on a 30 sec cd is a good window of opportunity for trash mobs to smack you down when you’ve had to dodge their endless CC.

Half of them shorter than 30s (19 exactly out of 32 skills) and you can CC trash mobs easily. Protection and weakness helps too, along with blinds. Of course, you can dodge too.
If you personally have issues to not even unable to kill trash mobs in 30 seconds, but the need to use your heal skills, i smell some l2p issue. No offense, it’s just sounds that way. Any detail what class and build are you using?

None taken. I’ll admit when I made the transition from GW1 > 2 there were problems. It only took a couple months to really get used to the game, and since then, no major issues. I’m just voicing my opinion of how group play/dungeon mechanics can be improved.

I main a warrior with full PVT armor+soldier runes and berserker accessories. 0/30/10/30/0. That’s the build that works best for me. Decent damage with group support. If I get kicked for using it, so be it.

I used to run full tank back in the day. No chance of that now. Badly designed dungeons force full on dps builds, and it’s unlikely Anet will do anything about dungeons in the near future.

Dagnaggit.5086:

Someone said earlier, and I will not quote it, that they like not having the trinity. They feel it gives their character more “options”. Please tell me you play GW2 PvE…..its “Go Zerk or go home” period. No options. And then in all but 1 game mode(the balanced one) only 3 classes have “true” viability. Sure, for WvW and PvE, the class make up is SLIGHTLY different. Mainly one leans to Ele and the other leans towards Mes. There is no true options in this game and now it is a total grind fest with Ascended. Sorry, but the crafting system in this game is the absolute worst I have seen in any game. So, your forced to grind that bore just to get Ascended…….this game is dying. Trinity could have stalled it, because then you would have really had options…a reason to use 80% of the gear that drops.

There are tons of options. it just depends how you want to play. If you want to be the most efficient, fastest and generally speedy player possible, then yes, zerker is often the way to go. Not always the best, as if you’re not good in zerker you’ll spend more time being dead. But it’s certainly not a “go zerker or go home” game. You can do all the game specced out as a healing build if you want and you will take longer, sure, but you will be just fine.

People shouting at others to “go zerker or go home” foster this mentality of there being no options, but it’s simply not true. These same people will tell you get get out of their group even if you’re running zerker but are still learning how to play as one and so get downed a few times because you’re “bad”. So they shouldn’t stop people from playing different builds.

Don’t confuse being efficient with being viable. That’s only the case in a speedclear dungeon run – but then, if you don’t want to do that quickly, you’re sort of in the wrong group anyway.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Scrambles.2604:

So you play a warrior (a heavy armor user with the highest defense) and you get mad that others are dropping while you refuse to take hits for them? Why else would a warrior have the highest defense if they weren’t supposed to take damage?

Personally, i don’t really know why they didn’t just give everyone the same amount of total defense if they intended for everyone to be responsible for their own survival, instead of depending on teammates in order to survive.

Health and armor are only one means to generate sustainability. Guards have heavy armor and a lot of mitigation options, but low health. Warriors have heavy armor, less mitigation options, and high health. Thieves have medium armor, low health, but have a lot of dodge/evasion. Etc.

Argue all you want about whether there is sustainability balance between professions, but heavy armor is not meant to allow you to just take hits.

Yeah, but in a team environment, you would want the person best suited to take hits to be able to do that.

It doesn’t do anyone any good when a boss is chasing a thief around, but if a guardian or warrior can keep a boss occupied in one place then everyone else is free to safely do their damage.

Other classes could fill this role, too, but warriors and guardians are best suited to do so. And since they are given higher armor than everyone else it seems like it was intended. Other classes can mitigate damage as well, but are not aided with the passive, 100% uptime that high defense offers.

kgptzac.8419:

though parts of it comes off as patronizing and lack of impartiality on the “controversial” topics.

If by “controversial” topics you mean the kind of gibberish we are seeing in this thread, including but not restricted to such chestnuts as:

“zerk groups don’t use support, gief trinity plox!”, or “speedclear groups are cancerous, kill them”, or "only zerkers can get groups and do dungeons, pitchforks!!!, ".

Then it is of little surprise such “controversial” topics are regarded with a mixture of disdain and amusement.

Fenrir.3609:

EverythingXen.1835:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

EverythingXen.1835:

There’s no reason to do anything I want to.

…. Uh well. There’s always the reason that you want to. And it’s a game and stuff.

If that’s not enough I don’t think I can help you.

You cant.

I want the PvE game to play differently based on my class, build and gear.

And it doesn’t.

Except it does. You can infact facetank (most of the content) when built defensively, try doing that with a full glass build. And are you suggesting full bunker cleric or PVT AH guard plays the same as the dps guard meta build?

They play the same to me.

My main’s a guardian.
I build defensively and auto attack with hammer to keep the symbol and protection up. Target falls over dead. Dodge when necessary.
I build glassy and use three more buttons (F1, 2, and 4) to keep the target blind while my sword autoattack kills it. Dodge when necessary.

I mean this completely without sarcasm… If I’m missing something please tell me. I honestly want to play again. But its just so stale to me.

EverythingXen.1835:

Fenrir.3609:

EverythingXen.1835:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

EverythingXen.1835:

There’s no reason to do anything I want to.

…. Uh well. There’s always the reason that you want to. And it’s a game and stuff.

If that’s not enough I don’t think I can help you.

You cant.

I want the PvE game to play differently based on my class, build and gear.

And it doesn’t.

Except it does. You can infact facetank (most of the content) when built defensively, try doing that with a full glass build. And are you suggesting full bunker cleric or PVT AH guard plays the same as the dps guard meta build?

They play the same to me.

My main’s a guardian.
I build defensively and auto attack with hammer to keep the symbol and protection up. Target falls over dead. Dodge when necessary.
I build glassy and use three more buttons (F1, 2, and 4) to keep the target blind while my sword autoattack kills it. Dodge when necessary.

I mean this completely without sarcasm… If I’m missing something please tell me. I honestly want to play again. But its just so stale to me.

Try to blind bosses in fractals.

Turgut.4397:

Yes, as a matter of fact I PUG all the time. 1 in 3 or 4 groups usually just accept all, while the remainder of the LFG system is littered with group ads such as ‘zerk+80 only, 10k+ AP, no noobz pls.’ Quite a deterrent for new players who wish to learn dungeons, but have no means to do so unless they PUG or sit on youtube for hours on end looking at walkthroughs.

And please, don’t twist my words. It’s clearly obvious zerkers don’t just spam 1. It’s just a joke of how effortless the build can be. You know, sometimes they have to press 2 on their GS. It’s quite a challenge.

Im part of a speedrunning guild and doing runs requires skill, awareness, timing and talent. Its actually very stressful for me to do the runs, so i dont run every day.

To relax I play my ranger, Rangesus the charr, with his trusty pets “how about no the bear” and “ronaldo rivas the moa” (spanish is fun!). I roam tyria watching the scenery, doing hearts and other map completion. My ranger is built how i want (pow/prec, because taking hammer hits to the face is anti-rp and breaks immersion, and i go around with my shortbow and logbow pincushioning things.

What i would never do is bring Rangesus to a dungeon run on that spec. Since i consider ranger sword to be terribad, i just bring other characters to runs. I would actually love to run gs warrior, but ea build is better for my teamates, and since im not a selfless jerk (im just an elitist jerk) i run whatever synergizes my friends builds. If i wanted to go with pvt gear i would join a dungeon party that allows that antics, i would NEVER, EVER try to take the fun away from other people by lobbing shamelessly so their prefered gameplay mode is nerfed, even if i couldnt have my way (which you TOTALLY can).

Listen to me: if you cant find a dungeon party message me. Ill get a group for you in under 5 minutes or pay you the dungeons gold reward. What i wont do is run with you (because i dont like your kind of comments).

Of course this isnt a reply to you personally, just the crowd qqing in this thread. If i can play how i want, you can too. And its actually way way way easier to make or find a non meta group than it is to find one. """SPEEDRUN""" pugs dont even know how to stack might…

Ps: i usually can survive more than a couple hits with my warr. My guard is the only char that gets consistently 1 hit, and 95% of the time is MY fault.

Dalanor.5387:

EverythingXen.1835:

Fenrir.3609:

EverythingXen.1835:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

EverythingXen.1835:

There’s no reason to do anything I want to.

…. Uh well. There’s always the reason that you want to. And it’s a game and stuff.

If that’s not enough I don’t think I can help you.

You cant.

I want the PvE game to play differently based on my class, build and gear.

And it doesn’t.

Except it does. You can infact facetank (most of the content) when built defensively, try doing that with a full glass build. And are you suggesting full bunker cleric or PVT AH guard plays the same as the dps guard meta build?

They play the same to me.

My main’s a guardian.
I build defensively and auto attack with hammer to keep the symbol and protection up. Target falls over dead. Dodge when necessary.
I build glassy and use three more buttons (F1, 2, and 4) to keep the target blind while my sword autoattack kills it. Dodge when necessary.

I mean this completely without sarcasm… If I’m missing something please tell me. I honestly want to play again. But its just so stale to me.

Try to blind bosses in fractals.

Exactly my point. There’s PvE content in the game that even removes the modicum of difference between the playstyles.

Turgut.4397:

Yes, as a matter of fact I PUG all the time. 1 in 3 or 4 groups usually just accept all, while the remainder of the LFG system is littered with group ads such as ‘zerk+80 only, 10k+ AP, no noobz pls.’ Quite a deterrent for new players who wish to learn dungeons, but have no means to do so unless they PUG or sit on youtube for hours on end looking at walkthroughs.

And please, don’t twist my words. It’s clearly obvious zerkers don’t just spam 1. It’s just a joke of how effortless the build can be. You know, sometimes they have to press 2 on their GS. It’s quite a challenge.

If you’d pug all the time you’d see it’s that same 3 groups that stay there for 15min while the 1 normal group gets filled immediately.

No means unless they PUG? This game is called guild wars.

And please, don’t talk about how effortless it is to play zerk when at least 50% of the community dies on high toughness gear. Maybe it is to you, however I sincerely doubt you’ve even tried a meta build before.

EverythingXen.1835:

They play the same to me.

My main’s a guardian.
I build defensively and auto attack with hammer to keep the symbol and protection up. Target falls over dead. Dodge when necessary.
I build glassy and use three more buttons (F1, 2, and 4) to keep the target blind while my sword autoattack kills it. Dodge when necessary.

I mean this completely without sarcasm… If I’m missing something please tell me. I honestly want to play again. But its just so stale to me.

Its the same as saying all the FPS and all guns all these FPS are the same. I press my left mouse to shoot bullet and i move my target and shoot another target. You can make anything feel stupid and repetitive if you want too.

I’m pretty sure i’m wasting my time but here what i feel different with my toons.

PvE
- On my ele i’m freaking squishy so i need to be extra carefull in almost all my movement. I stack might in the middle of every fight while making sure that i survive and i get frustrated at myself each time i can’t get the max might stacking. On my ele i have the best dps, but also the more difficult gameplay.

- On my warrior its easier. Of course i’m still full DPS (not only full Zerker), so i’m still easy to kill. Here i make sure to get my rotation right with my GS and Axe/mace. Its pretty strait foward as i pretty much use my FGJ and Signet as soon as they are available and make sure to get my banner at the right places. My fun with my warrior is to get everything perfect to get the max DPS of my Hundred blades. Its a bit of a competition between me and one of my friend and its a lot of fun.

- On my Guardian, i’m the tanky one (still full Zerker, but not full DPS build). I’m there for the support so i make sure to put my reflect at the right place, the aegis and stability at the right time. I’m a rezzing machine when things go bad, and i’m getting good at that, even in bad situation.

WvW
- My Guardian is tankier here with my soldier gear. I’m in the middle of the battle, staying close to my commander and leaping in the center of the enemy zerg to add some CC and dps to get a part of their zerg down.
- On my necro and i’m here for the choke point. I can lay down massive dps at one point to help the melee do their jobs, but they won’t help me to stay alive so i need to be smart about my position, the enemy and use the environment at my advantage.
- On my thief i’m an hunter. I’ll find these lone roamer or small group and use my stealth to down them one by one. I’m to be feared, but if you see me i’m dead ; )

For me these are all very different way of playing and even if DPS is a major part of the PVE, there a lot of different role to be filled in each group. That’s why i usually wait for the party to fill up and then switch to the more appropriate profession depending on what the group looks like.

Edit: and a +1 to Wharrgarbl.9263 for a brilliant post.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Thaddeus.4891:

kgptzac.8419:

I would consider something helpful if there’s a sticky threads that lists current meta builds for each class, along with their usage and roles. It’s not too much to ask since many class subforum has similar threads.

Since there is no such thread, and if you take a look on what kind of threads currently are on the first page of the dungeons subforum, it shouldn’t be hard to see that it isn’t very helpful to people who most need help on dungeons.

That is asking a lot of job. Anway, this is already done for most professions in the profession subforum. Why put that again in the dungeon subforum. And btw the Dungeon Mentor and the all the help they give to a lot of people is already an achievement. You ask for more?

Yeah they ask us to be always happy to take their insults and trolls and let them beat on us every day without complaint. They want to ask us our help, and when we give it, they want to deride us and make us feel like we are nothing because we are “sheep” and “elitist” and whatever other insult isn’t caught by the kitten filter. We don’t do enough. No matter how much of our free time we donate to you guys with guides, builds, tests, videos, threads, posts, it won’t be enough because they want to be spoonfed while playing their pretend trinity roles.

Now now, there is no need to assume an elitist stance in defense of being accused of being elitist.

I stand behind my previous comment: the dungeons subforum isn’t helpful to those who most need help in dungeons. Sorry for not making my example clear on what would make the subforum helpful: Not only a list of meta builds, but also how they synergize with each other, etc, and how to speedrun paths, etc.

Note that I am not saying particular people being helpful or not helpful; my comment was about and only about the dungeon subforum as a whole. I am in no position and actually am not claiming an individual or group of individuals not being helpful. I’m also not saying the subforum has no value for it not being helpful.

I think a good example of a helpful subforum is https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/players

But let’s stop this tangent. I don’t see discussions within the dungeon subforum that are about “pretend trinity roles”.

Thaddeus.4891:

- On my Guardian, i’m the tanky one (still full Zerker, but not full DPS build). I’m there for the support so i make sure to put my reflect at the right place, the aegis and stability at the right time. I’m a rezzing machine when things go bad, and i’m getting good at that, even in bad situation.

WvW
- My Guardian is tankier here with my soldier gear. I’m in the middle of the battle, staying close to my commander and leaping in the center of the enemy zerg to add some CC and dps to get a part of their zerg down.

For me these are all very different way of playing and even if DPS is a major part of the PVE, there a lot of different role to be filled in each group. That’s why i usually wait for the party to fill up and then switch to the more appropriate profession depending on what the group looks like.

Thanks for the reply. (I’ll only comment on the Guardian bits… I haven’t played enough of my Ele, Necro, or Thief to feel like I can)

I do love the utilities on my Guardian… but those aren’t unique to the build I’m running… a tanky or DPS guard has access to the same skills. It kind of contributes to the sameness for me. (Nevermind how annoying it is to pop an Aegis for the group only to have them all dodge the big attack on their own and waste the free hit on an enemy autoattack.)

Havent WvW’d in a while… since Season 1 actually. Also on point with the Commander. It was fun for a bit… though zerg combat still eventually devolved into the autoattack spam fest.

Eh… I’m probably just too burnt out.

The interesting thing about GW2 is that it’s the one game where we can actually experience complete chaos in our dungeon runs. I mean, you really can’t beat that.

EverythingXen.1835:

They play the same to me.

My main’s a guardian.
I build defensively and auto attack with hammer to keep the symbol and protection up. Target falls over dead. Dodge when necessary.
I build glassy and use three more buttons (F1, 2, and 4) to keep the target blind while my sword autoattack kills it. Dodge when necessary.

I mean this completely without sarcasm… If I’m missing something please tell me. I honestly want to play again. But its just so stale to me.

Personally I notice a significant difference in playstyle between my zerk hambow warr and my pve dungeon 30/25/.. meta zerk warr.

Perhaps you expect a bit too much difference in play style between a dps melee version and a tanky melee version of the same class, or perhaps you are just a bit jaded with the game?

I think Gw2 adding Hard mode/Elite runs of dungeons could be a good answer to add some challenge to the players who have mastered the explorer dungeons that they can go zerk and spam 1 (Yes over exaggeration but it gets the point across) without trying.

Leave the current dungeons as they are, playing with people less skilled actually requires the use of a lot of skills I don’t normally carry or not part of the meta to gurantee a successful run.

In the elite add some elements that would not force an entire gear change but possibly a rearrangement of utility skills. COF elite run can have a heat wave affect on bosses so using a water blast finisher or using range over shadow refuge would be needed so your self heal alone won’t save you. Some buffs/debuffs that make a boss focus on one person but reduce their dmg and increase toughness where the rest get damage buffs or something. I think this is where Arena Net can redefine dungeons and add some cool abilities to avoid the dps zerk fest but also offer something outside of Tank/dps/healer.

What if you like to be a support role or healer in rpg’s/mmo’s? Same thing with a tank. I use to enjoy playing as a tank in many games, drawing aggro so my gf or friends (who were normally much less experienced at the game and at a much lower level of skill ) could do most of what they wanted to do. I think instead of focusing on removing the trinity as a whole, they should have just tried to reduce the reliance on it and increased the effectiveness of different roles. Stealth roles, conditions, group buffs etc. could have become more effective in taking down end game content and thus increased the number of roles a player could choose to focus on.

I still have fun with GW2 dungeons, but my friends who don’t quite play as often get frustrated rather easily because the game isn’t quite forgiving to people who aren’t quite skilled at dodging or getting max dps.

I never quite understood the hate at the trinity itself, when its moreso balance issues in particular games that cause people to flock to those roles as being the real thing people should be angry at. But I guess allowing every class to have their own versions of tank/support/dps/stealth would be boring. Idk.

Zacchary.6183:

Guys what about the Pagan circle thing of MMO Combat? :O

That still exists, although highly ignored.

Its too complex for ppl they like to roll support into 3 of though and have dps and tanking on there own. The over simplification to a 3 class system has always been a pain and remove a lot of personality to classes that try to do something that dose not fall into this system. I always favored the debuff class.

Can someone provide a list of some new MMO’s that support the trinity in a fantasy setting please?