Guild Wars 2

Oh, dear OP, you ask a leading question in your thread title, and I’m biting down really hard not to give you a flippant answer. Must! Resist! Urge!

... I’m resisting. And no, you’re not wrong. You sound burnt out. You sound like you could use a break for sure. Find something, anything, that makes you smile and feel happy. That’s what you sound like you should be doing right now.

I’m of the opinion there’ll never be a 100% perfect MMO or MMO-style game. There’s too many players of different types to satisfy everyone. Ergo, there’s always going to be annoying elements which make sad, frustrated pandas. I’ve also found this one (GW2) for the most part works for me. Not all of it, of course, and I don’t expect it to. It’s also not my only game, nor the only thing I do with my time (just sometimes a lot of it, and sometimes not). But this is about you, OP, and only you can decide whether you want to keep doing something or not. And if it’s not doing it for you, in any consistent way, then just don’t do it.

I’ve already said this to another player this evening in the forums, but I’ll say it to you, slightly paraphrased: I hope you get the experience* you’re looking for some day, and I wish you luck with it!

*I’m not saying "game experience" this time, as it may not really be a game you’re looking for (but only you decide that!)

I played gw1 long before I knew of GW2. The developers were pretty open that it wasn’t going to be the same as the first. If you came here without doing your research, that’s your problem. But not having to pay a sub for all the content is a good deal in itself, IMO.

Not having to pay for all the content? What content? As far as I know, I can’t play the content that was released a year ago.

Look at Diablo 3. You don’t have to reinvent the wheel just for the sake of it.
I guess it’s a trend with all the new games: extreme dumbing down.

Nick.6972:

Not having to pay for all the content? What content? As far as I know, I can’t play the content that was released a year ago.

Look at Diablo 3. You don’t have to reinvent the wheel just for the sake of it.
I guess it’s a trend with all the new games: extreme dumbing down.

A year ago? You mean things like guild missions or molten facility? You can afaik

I think he’s referring to the Living World content. Either that or his computer is seriously jacked up and is of no fault of the MMO’s.

Paponzi.1637:

Nick.6972:

Not having to pay for all the content? What content? As far as I know, I can’t play the content that was released a year ago.

Look at Diablo 3. You don’t have to reinvent the wheel just for the sake of it.
I guess it’s a trend with all the new games: extreme dumbing down.

A year ago? You mean things like guild missions or molten facility? You can afaik

Fiontar.4695:

Of course, that didn’t fit in with their decision to abandon the organic play model where people never felt forced into doing specific content for specific rewards. They decided what the game actually needed was all the directed, carrot on a stick driven, linear game play found in every other MMO title.

Karma, instead of evolving into a currency that equalized one’s efforts, allowing access to worthy rewards for playing the game “your way” and doing the content you enjoyed, was frozen out of most new rewards and gutted as a currency that rewarded play focused on fun, rather than play focused on narrowly laid out, linear objectives.

I could go into great detail about the continual devolution of the game and it’s design, but that’s pointless.

I’ll just say that the game’s design goals and principles have morphed significantly since launch. Most of those changes have been fun killing, exploration killing, living world killing. Most of them have introduced and reinforced linear, highly directed and very grindy game play, at the expense of the original ideal which was “you can play the game the way you want to play and still earn the same rewards as everyone else with similar time commitments”.

Dailies were a key element in the slide. Though they ostensibly offered enough freedom to allow for some spontaneity, they still changed the focus away from free form exploration and toward the Adventure by Checklist mentality. If the rewards for dailies had only been Karma and the depth and breadth of items available for karma had expanded, the negative impact may have been lessened. However, there was a very deliberate change in design philosophy based on the carrot on a stick metaphor. Rewards would be used to motivate very specific game play, at the expense of “play the way you find most fun”.

Living Story has taken things further in the wrong direction. Not only taking resources from the true Living World concept, but further solidifying the model of “do these specific tasks and earn these very specific carrots”. Made more insidious due to the temporary nature of the content, the time limits on completing the linear checklist of activity and the exclusivity of rewards to that specific content and that limited timer for participation.

I’d argue that GW2, at launch, offered GW1 players the option to play GW2 in a fashion very similar to the way they played GW1. In fact, if ANet had stuck by the promise that there would be very little difference in rewards per hour between doing at level content and doing content you were significantly scaled down for, the expanded level cap and greater time to reach the level cap would have been largely moot for those who liked the GW1 model. Leveling up would just have opened up more and more content to the character, but all content would have been equally rewarding.

However, GW2 is a very different game than it was at launch. It has embraced most of the worst elements found in every other WoW-clone. In fact, I think we would be hard pressed to find another AAA MMO that has gone to such extremes to force linear content on it’s players and discourage adventure in the greater game world.

GW2 has become a Skinner’s Box. Levers to pull for specific rewards. Following the latest checklist provides you with exclusive, time limited rewards. Chase the carrot. Chase the carrot. Chase the carrot.

I asked this in another thread. How many people would actually play the current event in LA for more than an hour if there was no checklist and no grand carrots to chase? How many find the zerg fun enough that they would zerg sans any reward, or if the rewards were non-exclusive and weren’t in any way superior to the rewards for playing any other content in the game?

GW2 has stopped being about players playing because it’s fun to play. It’s all about chasing carrots. New, yummy, shiny carrots, each available for a limited time and each requiring a specific list of hoops to jump through before getting the pat on the head and your special dog treat!

It’s more than an affront to GW1, it’s a cynical, disgusting affront to the GW2 Manifesto and the limitless potential this game possessed at launch. It’s also very insulting to players, who have been reduced to the role of pets or lab rats in the minds of the Developers, who must marvel at the willingness of people to do elaborate lists of tricks for trivial treats.

+1, most of the changes have been of the pigeon-hole variety, forcing players into a mindless ‘must do daily, must do monthly’ if they want to get the latest shinies.

Gw1 is definitely not the same as gw2. I liked gw1 but gw2 isn’t bad either. The main problem is there really isn’t much to look forward to. No new unlockable skills or traits. Supposedly skins should be something to look forward to but after the phoenix light armor there isn’t any more good ones.

ipan.4356:

I’m sick of this generation of games and developers.

Fiontar is right – but it’s not just Anet and Blizztard – it’s the whole industry.

We’ve been plagued by a generation of cynics and board room directors making games.

The only interesting stuff I ever see anymore is on Kickstarter. Broken Age was just released.

I can’t wait for the Oculus Rift to hit the shelves, because I don’t think we’ll see anything worthwhile until then.

They don’t make games anymore, they make payment models.

(1) I don’t think cynics are making video games, rather I think you are looking for a different word.

It seems to me that since the early 2000s there’s been a development model that I like to call ‘good enough development’. In this model, consciously or unconsciously practised, very little time is spent by the development team on pre-production and concept building. Solid examples of this are good ideas that look to be only partially implemented where they aren’t poorly implemented. When this is combined with publisher pressure to meet milestones we see significant pressure put on the folks doing code and model work, resulting in all sorts of issues. And when we add to this a lack of attention to QA, something that circles right around to pre-production and concept work, their is either no time to make necessary changes or they are shrugged off because what works is ‘good enough’ and things can be fixed later.

(2) One word I want to see disappear is ‘value’. ‘Value’ is not a synonym for ‘fun’ and using that sort of language focuses solely on monetisation. You’re entirely correct to note that payment models are an inappropriate focus and this is something that we see as more people that have no business in video games push for ‘value’, getting as much content as possible for as little money as possible. Precious little thought seems to go to whether or not the content is quality content, whether or not systems are in place to facilitate experiencing content.

With that in mind, another word that needs to die in a fire is ‘consume/consumption’. Following a purely financial point-of-view, too much is made of how players ‘consume’ content as opposed to how players ‘experience’ or ‘play’ content.

Language matters and players latch onto language that they see people inside the industry use. We need to get away from ‘consuming value’ and get back to experiencing quality game content.

(3) It’s going to be considered arrogant or elitist but I don’t have enough kittens to give about it: too many people who don’t belong involved with video games are ruining the experience for those of us that actually care, the great developers who are being hamstrung and the actual gamers, not merely players looking to kill time or for whom video games are mere entertainment indistinguishable from watching a movie.

ipan.4356:

I’m sick of this generation of games and developers.

Fiontar is right – but it’s not just Anet and Blizztard – it’s the whole industry.

We’ve been plagued by a generation of cynics and board room directors making games.

The only interesting stuff I ever see anymore is on Kickstarter. Broken Age was just released.

I can’t wait for the Oculus Rift to hit the shelves, because I don’t think we’ll see anything worthwhile until then.

They don’t make games anymore, they make payment models.

But no one would pay if there weren’t games attached to the payment model. It’s surely changed, but the change isn’t just in how you pay.

It costs far more to make a game today..the costs are up, the amount of capital required is much higher, so you take a chance on kickstart (and it is a chance) or you’re supported by investors who you have to answer to.

This isn’t some greedy, cynical conspiracy you’re seeing. It’s what happens to every single niche market that goes mainstream.

Nage.1520:

ipan.4356:

I’m sick of this generation of games and developers.

Fiontar is right – but it’s not just Anet and Blizztard – it’s the whole industry.

We’ve been plagued by a generation of cynics and board room directors making games.

The only interesting stuff I ever see anymore is on Kickstarter. Broken Age was just released.

I can’t wait for the Oculus Rift to hit the shelves, because I don’t think we’ll see anything worthwhile until then.

They don’t make games anymore, they make payment models.

But no one would pay if there weren’t games attached to the payment model. It’s surely changed, but the change isn’t just in how you pay.

It costs far more to make a game today..the costs are up, the amount of capital required is much higher, so you take a chance on kickstart (and it is a chance) or you’re supported by investors who you have to answer to.

This isn’t some greedy, cynical conspiracy you’re seeing. It’s what happens to every single niche market that goes mainstream.

I don’t care why it happens.

I just want it to stop.

I want games to be fun again.

For a one-time $60 I don’t find this game disappointing at all. It entertained me for much longer than Skyrim and cost the same price.

I mean, sure I’m not playing the game much either, like once every 2 weeks to see the story, and even then I find it hard to bother sometimes. (I still haven’t seen the “new” Lion’s Arch for example.) But I’m also not paying monthly fees for it so my expectations are lower.

I really wish the game could keep me as entertained as WoW does, and before launch, during the BWE, I thought that if one game could become the new king of MMOs, it was GW2. But it didn’t happen. But I blame their terrible dungeon design (the game basically has no high-end PvE because the dungeons are so bad), not the difference with the first Guild Wars.

I didn’t like the first Guild Wars much, I get that the millions of skills was enticing to some player, and I agree that the multi-class system was awesome, and cosmetic-only (non-cash shop) skins farming was really nice, but that’s about where my love for the first Guild Wars ended. I’m glad that the second game took a few steps away from that game to make it more like an actual MMO. I just wish it kept more of the good stuff.

ipan.4356:

Nage.1520:

ipan.4356:

I’m sick of this generation of games and developers.

Fiontar is right – but it’s not just Anet and Blizztard – it’s the whole industry.

We’ve been plagued by a generation of cynics and board room directors making games.

The only interesting stuff I ever see anymore is on Kickstarter. Broken Age was just released.

I can’t wait for the Oculus Rift to hit the shelves, because I don’t think we’ll see anything worthwhile until then.

They don’t make games anymore, they make payment models.

But no one would pay if there weren’t games attached to the payment model. It’s surely changed, but the change isn’t just in how you pay.

It costs far more to make a game today..the costs are up, the amount of capital required is much higher, so you take a chance on kickstart (and it is a chance) or you’re supported by investors who you have to answer to.

This isn’t some greedy, cynical conspiracy you’re seeing. It’s what happens to every single niche market that goes mainstream.

I don’t care why it happens.

I just want it to stop.

I want games to be fun again.

Write your own code. If it does not sell, not a problem since you will be happy.

Next gen mmo man.. next gen! we only run one single thread man, because thats how we roll.. forget about AMD man, intel is the kitten yo.. Mantle is not the future man.. DX9 man!
Who doesn’t want to buy a $1000 system+ to play a 50$ game on medium settings man..

I just dropped into the forums to see whats happening in what should have been my most popular game.
Sad to say I stopped playing some time ago and I find it difficult to work myself up to trying it again.
So yes I would say if you don’t like it go play something else, the game is unlikely to change based on the needs/wants of all the players, you can influence change but if there is a lot that you dislike then go.

I loved the PVE part of the game its much improved over GW1 and I was playing that 8 hours or more a day at its peak.
I don’t play other aspects of the game because I detest waiting and moral judgement.
GW1 became a dream game for me when Heroes came in and it was still pretty good with the basic AI help.
Nothing worse in an online game than spending ages trying for a party only to find either you cannot get accepted unless you have x set of skills or can prove your ability.
Far better to waste no time and just get down that dungeon with ai help.

GW2 started very well indeed then for me the cracks appeared.
You could go anywhere start a fight and players could join on the fly and the enemy scaled up to suit the number of players, except in dungeons where you were back to old style play of waiting for a party.

Some areas of the map became depopulated so some missions where hard to complete solo ai help would have made these areas work.
Then there were the jumping puzzles absolutely loved these but really hated the perspective problems.
First person view would have improved the situation , fading out terrain close to your rear making it transparent would have solved it completely.
Would have improved some underground scenarios too.
In real life there are very few situations where a wall behind my back prevents me from looking forward ditto a ceiling or cave roof.

If these situations ever change I will be back to spending all my time and money on this game.
Till then I am awaiting perhaps a GW2 expansion or some of the problem areas to be fixed.

TheBitterness.6912:

ipan.4356:

I’m sick of this generation of games and developers.

Fiontar is right – but it’s not just Anet and Blizztard – it’s the whole industry.

We’ve been plagued by a generation of cynics and board room directors making games.

The only interesting stuff I ever see anymore is on Kickstarter. Broken Age was just released.

I can’t wait for the Oculus Rift to hit the shelves, because I don’t think we’ll see anything worthwhile until then.

They don’t make games anymore, they make payment models.

(1) I don’t think cynics are making video games, rather I think you are looking for a different word.

It seems to me that since the early 2000s there’s been a development model that I like to call ‘good enough development’. In this model, consciously or unconsciously practised, very little time is spent by the development team on pre-production and concept building. Solid examples of this are good ideas that look to be only partially implemented where they aren’t poorly implemented. When this is combined with publisher pressure to meet milestones we see significant pressure put on the folks doing code and model work, resulting in all sorts of issues. And when we add to this a lack of attention to QA, something that circles right around to pre-production and concept work, their is either no time to make necessary changes or they are shrugged off because what works is ‘good enough’ and things can be fixed later.

(2) One word I want to see disappear is ‘value’. ‘Value’ is not a synonym for ‘fun’ and using that sort of language focuses solely on monetisation. You’re entirely correct to note that payment models are an inappropriate focus and this is something that we see as more people that have no business in video games push for ‘value’, getting as much content as possible for as little money as possible. Precious little thought seems to go to whether or not the content is quality content, whether or not systems are in place to facilitate experiencing content.

With that in mind, another word that needs to die in a fire is ‘consume/consumption’. Following a purely financial point-of-view, too much is made of how players ‘consume’ content as opposed to how players ‘experience’ or ‘play’ content.

Language matters and players latch onto language that they see people inside the industry use. We need to get away from ‘consuming value’ and get back to experiencing quality game content.

(3) It’s going to be considered arrogant or elitist but I don’t have enough kittens to give about it: too many people who don’t belong involved with video games are ruining the experience for those of us that actually care, the great developers who are being hamstrung and the actual gamers, not merely players looking to kill time or for whom video games are mere entertainment indistinguishable from watching a movie.

+1

I don’t think budgets increase in order to make bigger and better games. They increase to make bigger and better companies. Real developers step away from that and are still successful. I’ts not impossible or of less quality, just a smaller company.

I am sure most of the budget isn’t spent on game deisgn anyway, like you said. Imo, it’s required to feed brokers, distributers, ads and financial security for the investment project.

This isn’t really about anet though. Sure they’re definetely part of that development but GW2 can’t be called just as good as necessary for sale in all aspects. It seems like they have quite a few people working on a great game while still having many who try to improve their business. I still don’t understand why those 2 have to oppose each other, but let’s just hope the new CDI is a project of the first group.

Yargesh.4965:

ipan.4356:

Nage.1520:

ipan.4356:

I’m sick of this generation of games and developers.

Fiontar is right – but it’s not just Anet and Blizztard – it’s the whole industry.

We’ve been plagued by a generation of cynics and board room directors making games.

The only interesting stuff I ever see anymore is on Kickstarter. Broken Age was just released.

I can’t wait for the Oculus Rift to hit the shelves, because I don’t think we’ll see anything worthwhile until then.

They don’t make games anymore, they make payment models.

But no one would pay if there weren’t games attached to the payment model. It’s surely changed, but the change isn’t just in how you pay.

It costs far more to make a game today..the costs are up, the amount of capital required is much higher, so you take a chance on kickstart (and it is a chance) or you’re supported by investors who you have to answer to.

This isn’t some greedy, cynical conspiracy you’re seeing. It’s what happens to every single niche market that goes mainstream.

I don’t care why it happens.

I just want it to stop.

I want games to be fun again.

Write your own code. If it does not sell, not a problem since you will be happy.

Wish I could tbh, but I can’t. No time, no knowledge and no funds for it. ;p
It’s true what he says though, the games through kickstarter are usually brought by people who don’t have the money, do not have an interest in creating a ‘booming industry’ and make a game for the gamers, knowing that if they make a game instead of a skinner box (yes GW2 is a skinner box), people will pay them enough to make a living and usually a lot more.

My problem with this new breed of game by investor is that is is often self-defeating.

The truth is, if you simply make a compelling game, then people will spend all their money on it.

What seems to occur, is companies that think they can repeat the success of a past game, and so the clone it. Hence all the ‘wow clones’ – but they usually only do this at a very superficial level, they don’t actually put all the work and polish into it like the original did.

GW2 is not quite like that. I think the devs were passionate at one time.

As has been mentioned, the problems in GW2 crept up on them – the pressure to perform (sales) is pushing decisions that will actually drive players away (and result in less revenue, which will drive even worse decisions – it’s a spiral).

With less money coming in, they can’t convince anyone that investing more money into actually making the things that would bring people back to spend more is worthwhile.

CREATE MORE CONTENT. Open up new zones. New classes. New skills and weapons. New enemies (my god, it gets so boring fighting the same monsters everywhere you go).

Ultimately, the game is sparse in every aspect. There aren’t enough costumes in the gem store for anyone to buy, even if they were so inclined (my girlfriend and I are both big time vanity spenders – but there is almost no selection in the store to buy).

I don’t understand the entire dynamic that leads games to this dark place in their development, but it seems to happen to every MMO, and the decisions are suicide. All these decisions are based around the idea of squeezing the game for as much money as they can, but in the end it just kills the game, and then there’s no money, and no players left to squeeze.

Build a great game. Players will throw hoards of cash at you if you do. It really is that simple.

For GW2, as has been mentioned countless times already, address the things that you promised in the Manifesto.

Action based combat.
Lack of grind.
Tons of compelling DE’s (please remove all heart quests from the game).

Expand the world 10x over. Open up completely new zones, and expand the one’s that already exist (with new structures and complexes – make underground and underwater zones that are miles long).

Make the world bigger.

Add a couple more classes. Some new weapons. Bette loot, and redesign the armor/stat system because it’s incredibly static and boring.

Add greater depth to character customization, because right now it’s like choosing from a small set of ‘uniforms’.

Do all of this, and people will flock back to the game and pump money into it.

I have only two words left for Anet: Star Citizen.

ipan.4356:

Nage.1520:

ipan.4356:

I’m sick of this generation of games and developers.

Fiontar is right – but it’s not just Anet and Blizztard – it’s the whole industry.

We’ve been plagued by a generation of cynics and board room directors making games.

The only interesting stuff I ever see anymore is on Kickstarter. Broken Age was just released.

I can’t wait for the Oculus Rift to hit the shelves, because I don’t think we’ll see anything worthwhile until then.

They don’t make games anymore, they make payment models.

But no one would pay if there weren’t games attached to the payment model. It’s surely changed, but the change isn’t just in how you pay.

It costs far more to make a game today..the costs are up, the amount of capital required is much higher, so you take a chance on kickstart (and it is a chance) or you’re supported by investors who you have to answer to.

This isn’t some greedy, cynical conspiracy you’re seeing. It’s what happens to every single niche market that goes mainstream.

I don’t care why it happens.

I just want it to stop.

I want games to be fun again.

It doesn’t work that way, unfortunately. If it costs more to produce big titles, that cost has to be funded, no matter who cares about it and who doesn’t.

But the other problem is, I find the game fun. You obviously don’t, and that’s quite sad, but it’s not like because there’s a payment model others don’t find it fun. There seem to be a lot of people playing this game and having fun.

A payment model and a game aren’t mutually exclusive. If people weren’t having fun they wouldn’t pay.

Nage.1520:

ipan.4356:

Nage.1520:

ipan.4356:

I’m sick of this generation of games and developers.

Fiontar is right – but it’s not just Anet and Blizztard – it’s the whole industry.

We’ve been plagued by a generation of cynics and board room directors making games.

The only interesting stuff I ever see anymore is on Kickstarter. Broken Age was just released.

I can’t wait for the Oculus Rift to hit the shelves, because I don’t think we’ll see anything worthwhile until then.

They don’t make games anymore, they make payment models.

But no one would pay if there weren’t games attached to the payment model. It’s surely changed, but the change isn’t just in how you pay.

It costs far more to make a game today..the costs are up, the amount of capital required is much higher, so you take a chance on kickstart (and it is a chance) or you’re supported by investors who you have to answer to.

This isn’t some greedy, cynical conspiracy you’re seeing. It’s what happens to every single niche market that goes mainstream.

I don’t care why it happens.

I just want it to stop.

I want games to be fun again.

It doesn’t work that way, unfortunately. If it costs more to produce big titles, that cost has to be funded, no matter who cares about it and who doesn’t.

But the other problem is, I find the game fun. You obviously don’t, and that’s quite sad, but it’s not like because there’s a payment model others don’t find it fun. There seem to be a lot of people playing this game and having fun.

A payment model and a game aren’t mutually exclusive. If people weren’t having fun they wouldn’t pay.

Yah, it’s the new generation of mmo players who find changing background color of their screen so fun that they pay 5€ for it. Old schoolers like me and ipan are pretty much screwed, though I guess there is always Eve online and Star Citizen looks promising so far.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Nage.1520:

ipan.4356:

Nage.1520:

ipan.4356:

I’m sick of this generation of games and developers.

Fiontar is right – but it’s not just Anet and Blizztard – it’s the whole industry.

We’ve been plagued by a generation of cynics and board room directors making games.

The only interesting stuff I ever see anymore is on Kickstarter. Broken Age was just released.

I can’t wait for the Oculus Rift to hit the shelves, because I don’t think we’ll see anything worthwhile until then.

They don’t make games anymore, they make payment models.

But no one would pay if there weren’t games attached to the payment model. It’s surely changed, but the change isn’t just in how you pay.

It costs far more to make a game today..the costs are up, the amount of capital required is much higher, so you take a chance on kickstart (and it is a chance) or you’re supported by investors who you have to answer to.

This isn’t some greedy, cynical conspiracy you’re seeing. It’s what happens to every single niche market that goes mainstream.

I don’t care why it happens.

I just want it to stop.

I want games to be fun again.

It doesn’t work that way, unfortunately. If it costs more to produce big titles, that cost has to be funded, no matter who cares about it and who doesn’t.

But the other problem is, I find the game fun. You obviously don’t, and that’s quite sad, but it’s not like because there’s a payment model others don’t find it fun. There seem to be a lot of people playing this game and having fun.

A payment model and a game aren’t mutually exclusive. If people weren’t having fun they wouldn’t pay.

Yah, it’s the new generation of mmo players who find changing background color of their screen so fun that they pay 5€ for it. Old schoolers like me and ipan are pretty much screwed, though I guess there is always Eve online and Star Citizen looks promising so far.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I’m an old time gamer too. I started gaming on computers back in 1983 and I do agree that something got lost in the genre along the way.

But that doesn’t mean that everyone who likes what’s out there now is wrong for liking something. There are things going on today that couldn’t have happened ten years ago. Certainly not to the same degree.

I don’t remember too many MMOs ten years ago that let you move and cast at the same time for example. The reason was intentional. Same with global cool downs. The idea was to reduce server calls. That’s no longer necessary and I’m not sorry to see it go.

There are older players who are able to adapt to the new environment. I’m one of them.

mooty.4560:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You have a point, but way back when you had to rerun a mission to get one piece infused so you didn’t melt under one particular skill attack? Yeah, that was just ludicrous and changed.
…
But it ticks the boxes of “repetitive, bothersome, and required”. Ascended, well, doesn’t hit all three.

It was somewhat required but I just didn’t find it overly difficult to deal with. It could be done in a day where as getting the most from your ascended gear can take months. That’s really where the comparison ends, when you start comparing the time scale of a day(or even a few hours) to maybe a quarter of a year. So yeah, you’ll get there… by the end of the day, how’s that ascended gear coming?

Really decently, thanks. About halfway there. Don’t ask about the Legendary though.

Re: The “oldschool vs newschool” debate

Look, games weren’t intended to be fun back in the day. They were intended to sit in the arcade and make money quarter after quarter.

A lot of the old classics? Had carried over quarter-muncher philosophy. Konami and Capcom really did that a lot, Nintendo’s first-party games less so . . .

I will agree with the idea something has been lost, and more of the fun games I’ve played have been indie titles. I’ve had incredible amounts of fun playing around with Minecraft and its mods (Mystcraft, TerraFirmaCraft, Millenaire) versus the amount of fun I had playing StarCraft 2. I find “Desktop Dungeons” and “Nethack” entertaining – and one of these is free. (It is also ball-breakingly, keyboard-snapping frustrating.)

I don’t have fun seeing great games and then seeing the tech specs and realizing 90% of that is for the graphics engine to render things with good speed and clarity. I have fun playing games which I can master or feel like I’m getting better over time at playing it. I have fun with games which have compelling and decent stories (or at least good voice acting to cover it up – see FF12).

It’s not a problem of new developers going “good enough, ship it”, because a lot of times it probably isn’t the developers’ fault – that can lie with the publishers who want to hit a specific launch window. Like, say, “rush this out so it can be out to compete with the other triple-A titles” or “this HAS to be out for Holiday 20XX”. It is not always the fault of the developer a game gets rushed or is left less than a desirable completeness.

. . . of course, that still doesn’t excuse DNF. There is no excuse for that.

Thedenofsin.7340:

But, ArenaNet has let WvW and PvP flounder. If they invested the time and energy into WvW and PvP instead of PVE and LW, they’d have the best world and team-based PvP in any MMO, ever. It had so much potential – and it’s simply being squandered.

- Sure thing. There’s a market for such large-scale siege/roaming type gameplay that WvW is, but here it comes as side dish on engine that wasn’t quite made for it. It’s not easy to fix the fundamental problems in WvW. Anet is just about getting the game mode to a point where it’s playable without culling and skill lag.

Fiontar.4695:

GW2 has stopped being about players playing because it’s fun to play. It’s all about chasing carrots. New, yummy, shiny carrots, each available for a limited time and each requiring a specific list of hoops to jump through before getting the pat on the head and your special dog treat!

- I think there’s some actual studies saying that external rewards are a great way to make any activity seem like work. It sure feels that way now that everything is presented in terms of external rewards. Kill centaur and it drops item for reward. Kill ten centaurs and you complete quest for rewards. Complete five quests and you get daily for another external reward. Complete dailies for achievement points and get rewarded at regular intervals. It’s like the player is treated like some junkie for constant gratification.

I’m an old school gamer. There was a time when games didn’t feature any external rewards. The game presented the player a challenge, which the player could choose to overcome. If the challenge was well-made the player would naturally feel rewarded at the end.

ipan.4356:

I’m sick of this generation of games and developers.

Fiontar is right – but it’s not just Anet and Blizztard – it’s the whole industry.

We’ve been plagued by a generation of cynics and board room directors making games.

The only interesting stuff I ever see anymore is on Kickstarter. Broken Age was just released.

I can’t wait for the Oculus Rift to hit the shelves, because I don’t think we’ll see anything worthwhile until then.

They don’t make games anymore, they make payment models.

Couldn’t have said it better myself. Gem store, real money auction house, and DLC are the ruination of modern PC games. Instead of game designers investing their time into great playable content, they just look for cheap updates to keep people spending money. I would rather have paid 15 a month for this game then play the free 2 play drivel that they call “living story”. It’s hilarious to see these developers do these interviews and listen to them preach about how they love being connected with the community, when their vision for the future of game couldn’t be any more opposite of what the community actually wants. It’s actually nice to see blizzard for once acknowledging the fact that Diablo3 was such a massive screw up to the play style that people expected from Diablo2, and that they have actually taken legitimate steps to try to correct the issue by removing thing like pay to win. That’s why ive decided to send my money elsewhere, Anet has proven over these last few updates that not only do they not know what they are doing, but that they dont deserve the money I kept putting out for gems and gem store items.

Zenith.6403:

Fiontar.4695:

GW2 has stopped being about players playing because it’s fun to play. It’s all about chasing carrots. New, yummy, shiny carrots, each available for a limited time and each requiring a specific list of hoops to jump through before getting the pat on the head and your special dog treat!

- I think there’s some actual studies saying that external rewards are a great way to make any activity seem like work. It sure feels that way now that everything is presented in terms of external rewards. Kill centaur and it drops item for reward. Kill ten centaurs and you complete quest for rewards. Complete five quests and you get daily for another external reward. Complete dailies for achievement points and get rewarded at regular intervals. It’s like the player is treated like some junkie for constant gratification.

I’m an old school gamer. There was a time when games didn’t feature any external rewards. The game presented the player a challenge, which the player could choose to overcome. If the challenge was well-made the player would naturally feel rewarded at the end.

The problem is this only works with certain types of people…people like me for example. But there aren’t enough of us alone to make games that way, because people want to be rewarded for their effort in some sort of tangible way. Because of the cost of game production, more people have to be brought into the fold.

That’s the problem in a nutshell.

Ashabhi.1365:

Ok, so you could reach level cap in a couple days (less if you pushed hard) and you didn’t have to grind mats for…oh…wait…never mind…how many ectos did I need for that set? and how many speed clear runs in UW did that translate to?

You also didn’t have to grind rep to get the cool EOTN…oh…wait…I neeed how many points to buy Asura armor?

You also didn’t have to grind for the cool skins…wait a minute… how many trips through the bog did I need to make for the froggy scepter?

In truth, the only thing in GW1 PvE that wasn’t a grind was the first 20 levels. After that, you needed points, rep, mats, shineys, and pretty much anything else you wanted.

There was (and still is) a reason they call it Spamadan. It’s because nobody wanted to go grind out the things that supposedly made GW1 so great. They want to buy it. And if you ask, I would bet a large portion of the playerbase that hangs out and purchases goods will tell you…“Because I don’t like the grind involved.”

PvP on the other hand was great. RA (Random Arenas) and TA (Team Arenas) were great, and the GvG put real guild wars in the Guild Wars. I do hope that ANet takes a cue from GW1 and someday implements some other types of PvP. WvZerg is fun, but tiring, and sPvP is not what I had hoped it would be, although it does smack of RA a bit.

TL;DR:
GW2 is really not as grindy as most forumites would have you to believe. Yes, there are aspects that are grinds. I am not disputing that. I just think that the OP has a different view of what is a necessary grind than I do.

@ the OP:
I am sorry that the game is not turning out the way you had hoped. I do think that your views are a bit skewed as to what a grind is, but they are your views, and you are entitled to them.

I wish you well in whatever you do next. If you decide that GW2 isn’t as bad as you had thought, please do come back.

Weird how the grind on GW1 somehow never felt as revolting and bothersome as it did/does on GW2 though. Perhaps it was because it truly was/is optional. Or because you could obtain many required mats doing completely unrelated things: AB gave you faction used to purchase the armor mats – although far too little until most recent updates – while UW/FoW farm was actually etnertaining because of the ingenius kind of builds that were possible back in the day – referring to SS necs/55 mo tanking, or to the OS 4-man sorrow’s furnace setup. Somehow these never felt tiresome, but fun…how peculiar. I honestly never did any insane grinding and yet I could still obtain virtually everything bar for some ultra rare minipets.
Must’ve been magic, eh.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Weird how the grind on GW1 somehow never felt as revolting and bothersome as it did/does on GW2 though.

Vanquishing felt very bothersome, Cartography half required me to use extra resources to compare maps to try to suss out the last 0.5% I needed more than once, and any of the PvP events felt revolting to me. (Especially Fort Aspenwood.) Also, while I might find something which looked neat or possibly could have been valuable? Lolz, no, it’s not even 1k. So making money was a lot of scraping it up or abusing the desire for “consets” to turn a quick buck.

Also, Foundry of Failed Creations from DoA can just go jump off a pier with chains around ankles.

I honestly never did any insane grinding and yet I could still obtain virtually everything bar for some ultra rare minipets.
Must’ve been magic, eh.

Must have been. I won’t be able at all to buy Obsidian Armor due to the pricey components without some serious plat grind.

Adamantium.3682:

There sure is a lot of rosy retrospection going on in this thread. I enjoyed GW1, and I’m sure many of you enjoyed it and played it more than I did, but my goodness this thread would have you think copies of it belong in the Smithsonian.

I very much enjoy GW2, I think it has many advantages over the “common MMO” and I don’t at all see it as just another MMO copy. However it is simply unrealistic to think everyone is going to like GW2 (or any game). I am glad that the OP has come to a conclusion on the matter, and I hope they are able to find a much better game for them to dive into.

I think the most important reason the OP likes GW2 less than GW1 is the atmosphere.

If you compare the two games in that subject:

• GW 1 had a serious and adult foundation on which the game is built. (You start out in the pre searing, shing jea or kamadan with the feeling of a serious threat.) In the instanced missions you had the feeling of adventure and pressure at the same time.
• GW1 had a fantasy theme with realistic cultures and environments. (I think quaggans are cute, but its a race that makes this game feel childish, and thus create the illusion that other races are just as unrealistic)
• in GW1 during the story, your mind was set on one thing only: “what will come next?”.
  No worries about gear as much other than trying to solve each puzzle with the players you met along the way. Your focus was on the story and setting. In GW2 all you see is waypoints, vista’s, points of interests and rewards. You jump from one setting to another right from the start without being really involved in the story. Its like the story is somewhat going on in your unconcious part of your brain. While actively thinking about loot, xp and other achiements.
• In GW1 you were quite bound to your party, which was considered a bad thing. But you actually had a better bond with these players or henchmen than other players in this game. Most content can be done solo, and somtimes you end up in a boss zerg feeling like you are not threatened at all. You die knowing the fight will continue, and while you respawn the zerg will finish of the boss. In GW1 the bosses would either wipe your party requiring you to rethink your approach with your team. Or you had to actively contribute in killing it.
• GW2 tries to make cities feel alive by all the npc’s and detail put into them. But the system of “improving your own character” and “not required to deal with other players” makes a city more of a place to sell your junk, and move on.
  In GW1 you saw players trading, looking for players and socializing a lot more. At first this was a living hell, but looking back right now it was actually great fun to see spammadan full of dancing individuals spamming their TAXI or globs of ectoplams they needed for a voltaic spear.

Just my 2c

I feel for you, OP.

I miss having to actually think about the encounter before engaging. I miss building my own squad, tweaking companions to perfection. I miss having truly difficult content which wasn’t just about bringing in enough warm bodies to beat the DPS check.

But there are also a lot of things I don’t miss. The inability to jump, the rigid feel of the gameplay, the rather empty world and so on. I can’t go back after having enjoyed the fluid gameplay of Guild Wars 2. Sure, it’s vapid and uninteresting but it feels so good on a basic level. Just a kitten shame it will never advance past that stage.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Weird how the grind on GW1 somehow never felt as revolting and bothersome as it did/does on GW2 though.

Vanquishing felt very bothersome, Cartography half required me to use extra resources to compare maps to try to suss out the last 0.5% I needed more than once, and any of the PvP events felt revolting to me. (Especially Fort Aspenwood.) Also, while I might find something which looked neat or possibly could have been valuable? Lolz, no, it’s not even 1k. So making money was a lot of scraping it up or abusing the desire for “consets” to turn a quick buck.

Also, Foundry of Failed Creations from DoA can just go jump off a pier with chains around ankles.

I honestly never did any insane grinding and yet I could still obtain virtually everything bar for some ultra rare minipets.
Must’ve been magic, eh.

Must have been. I won’t be able at all to buy Obsidian Armor due to the pricey components without some serious plat grind.

Vanquishing is something I did when I felt like dabbing in pve with a friend or two, but why grind the title, if it’s no fun? I never did exploration for cartography titles (I am actually proud of my Tyrian Explorer [60%]), but I can imagine completing the game without skipping large chunks of content gave you about 70-80% already.
However why would you compare something completely optional to the far-from-optional gear grind here? A change in numbers is still a change, no matter how minor and insignificant it may seem.
Also, to me the ecto/shards farming was a lot of fun during the OS days, but hey. Old-school sf 4 man runs were awesome too, and that feel/atmosphere is completely lost with GW2. I get the feeling you didn’t play during those days though, which is a real pity.

there is one big problem with most argument here. You’re assuming that developers are sacrificing game play for monotization but those two are intertwined. who is going to pay if they’re not playing? and who is going to play just cause they have stuff to buy? simply speaking if a sizeable amount of players do not enjoy game play choices they made they wouldnt be making the dollar amounts they’re making.

There has to be a reason why in its first year gw2 did much more money gw1 did between its release and 2007 and in the 2nd year it still did very close to what gw1 did between release and 2007.

What I am trying to say here is gw1 was a great game and It was my favorite MMO so dont think any of this is meant to belittle the success of that title, far from it. That being said undoubtly gw2 costs more to make like others pointed out and thus aiming for a fraction of gw1 players would be financial suicide. They made changes to try to appeal to a wider audiance while at the same time still have the spirit of the original. For some that was enough for others even a single step departure on how things worked in gw1 was not acceptable. All in all though I dont think there is any doubt that Gw2 is a bigger success then Gw1. Its making in 1 year the same amount of money gw1 did in the 3 years it provided payed content. And not just that but its making that amount of money through entirely optional payed content while gw1 had a compulsary charge no one could avoid.

That being said there is no reason why the game cant evolve in such a way to provide what its missing from gw1 it already started to a degree as we have been getting more challenging content then we had at launch. As long as the game is successful it will have the resources to keep evolving and thats in everyone’s best interest in my opinion.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Weird how the grind on GW1 somehow never felt as revolting and bothersome as it did/does on GW2 though.

Vanquishing felt very bothersome, Cartography half required me to use extra resources to compare maps to try to suss out the last 0.5% I needed more than once, and any of the PvP events felt revolting to me. (Especially Fort Aspenwood.) Also, while I might find something which looked neat or possibly could have been valuable? Lolz, no, it’s not even 1k. So making money was a lot of scraping it up or abusing the desire for “consets” to turn a quick buck.

Also, Foundry of Failed Creations from DoA can just go jump off a pier with chains around ankles.

I honestly never did any insane grinding and yet I could still obtain virtually everything bar for some ultra rare minipets.
Must’ve been magic, eh.

Must have been. I won’t be able at all to buy Obsidian Armor due to the pricey components without some serious plat grind.

Vanquishing is something I did when I felt like dabbing in pve with a friend or two, but why grind the title, if it’s no fun? I never did exploration for cartography titles (I am actually proud of my Tyrian Explorer [60%]), but I can imagine completing the game without skipping large chunks of content gave you about 70-80% already.
However why would you compare something completely optional to the far-from-optional gear grind here? A change in numbers is still a change, no matter how minor and insignificant it may seem.
Also, to me the ecto/shards farming was a lot of fun during the OS days, but hey. Old-school sf 4 man runs were awesome too, and that feel/atmosphere is completely lost with GW2. I get the feeling you didn’t play during those days though, which is a real pity.

Many players, probably even most players see the gear grind here as completely optional. It really is a matter of opinion.

The thing is Nage, why is it there when it’s completely optional? Why did they waste time and resources on something that lacks sense?

Why did people invent a sagway? Its completely optional and way mote expensive than a bike.

Sirendor.1394:

The thing is Nage, why is it there when it’s completely optional? Why did they waste time and resources on something that lacks sense?

because the whole thing is a comprise. You got players who feel cosmetic rewards are not worth a single second of game play. For these players the game ends after 80 or so hours. Think about it if you dont care about cosmetic rewards what are you going to do when you get to level 80 and finish your exotic gear ? For us who care about cosmetics we get legendaries, different armor sets etc but for them there is nothing. Ascended gear was a way how to introduce a long term power oriented reward but that at the same time those of us who dont care about such things could safely avoid.

Simply speaking it lacks sense if you dont want vertical progression, but its all there is if vertical progression is all you care about.

OP if you are unhappy then no you aren’t wrong to leave. However after reading your huge wall of text I could only determine that you were leaving because this is not GW1. As a player who played both games I don’t live in retrospection and kid myself that GW1 was a perfect game. My memories of GW1 was a boring instanced game that held my interest for the shortest of times. 5-6 chars to lvl 20 and apart from standing around in town talking crap with the best of them there was nothing to do.

Everyone gets something different out of games, for instance I have just made one of my many returns to GW2 and am currently building my 9th char to lvl 80 and totally loving it. Takes me around 5 days to get a char to lvl 80 on GW2 and yeah that is a super hard grind fest.

I don’t understand why people think when they decide to leave a game a huge write up of why is necessary the moderators need to start removing goodbye threads. If you took the time to actually write something that was constructive that could be used to make the game play better then so be it but sadly I didn’t see anything but whinging in your post.

Sirendor.1394:

The thing is Nage, why is it there when it’s completely optional? Why did they waste time and resources on something that lacks sense?

Why have jumping puzzles when they’re completely optional? Why have vistas when they’re completely optional? Why have caves when they’re completely optional.

Anet tried to create a themepark MMO with different things for different people to do. Some people love mini games, some people hate them. So Anet included them, but they’re optional.

Some people enjoy grinding for gear? Why? No clue, hate it myself, but for some, that’s what MMOs are about. So Anet provided it.

The trick was to make it so that those who didn’t want it didn’t have to get it. I think Anet made a fair compromise on that score.

Edit: Wish I’d read Galen’s response before posting, I could have saved myself the time. lol

Nage.1520:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Weird how the grind on GW1 somehow never felt as revolting and bothersome as it did/does on GW2 though.

Vanquishing felt very bothersome, Cartography half required me to use extra resources to compare maps to try to suss out the last 0.5% I needed more than once, and any of the PvP events felt revolting to me. (Especially Fort Aspenwood.) Also, while I might find something which looked neat or possibly could have been valuable? Lolz, no, it’s not even 1k. So making money was a lot of scraping it up or abusing the desire for “consets” to turn a quick buck.

Also, Foundry of Failed Creations from DoA can just go jump off a pier with chains around ankles.

I honestly never did any insane grinding and yet I could still obtain virtually everything bar for some ultra rare minipets.
Must’ve been magic, eh.

Must have been. I won’t be able at all to buy Obsidian Armor due to the pricey components without some serious plat grind.

Vanquishing is something I did when I felt like dabbing in pve with a friend or two, but why grind the title, if it’s no fun? I never did exploration for cartography titles (I am actually proud of my Tyrian Explorer [60%]), but I can imagine completing the game without skipping large chunks of content gave you about 70-80% already.
However why would you compare something completely optional to the far-from-optional gear grind here? A change in numbers is still a change, no matter how minor and insignificant it may seem.
Also, to me the ecto/shards farming was a lot of fun during the OS days, but hey. Old-school sf 4 man runs were awesome too, and that feel/atmosphere is completely lost with GW2. I get the feeling you didn’t play during those days though, which is a real pity.

Many players, probably even most players see the gear grind here as completely optional. It really is a matter of opinion.

It is no longer pure cosmetics (would you still opt for the torture of the grind if it wasn’t for that minor stat increase?), and it’s also a dangerous precedent.
Players should be rather wary of what they might be in for in the long run.

Nage.1520:

Sirendor.1394:

The thing is Nage, why is it there when it’s completely optional? Why did they waste time and resources on something that lacks sense?

Why have jumping puzzles when they’re completely optional? Why have vistas when they’re completely optional? Why have caves when they’re completely optional.

Anet tried to create a themepark MMO with different things for different people to do. Some people love mini games, some people hate them. So Anet included them, but they’re optional.

Some people enjoy grinding for gear? Why? No clue, hate it myself, but for some, that’s what MMOs are about. So Anet provided it.

The trick was to make it so that those who didn’t want it didn’t have to get it. I think Anet made a fair compromise on that score.

Edit: Wish I’d read Galen’s response before posting, I could have saved myself the time. lol

Jumping puzzles have an intrinsic ‘telos’: you do them to do them (because you like doing them). Ascended gear lacks that obviously: you don’t get ascended gear because you like getting ascended gear… don’t say people like grinding, all they care about is the shiny pink name.

Nage.1520:

I don’t remember too many MMOs ten years ago that let you move and cast at the same time for example. The reason was intentional. Same with global cool downs. The idea was to reduce server calls. That’s no longer necessary and I’m not sorry to see it go.

There are older players who are able to adapt to the new environment. I’m one of them.

There it is already: Modern MMOs don’t deserve to be still stuck with castbars and cooldowns as an intepretation by your interface of what’s going on. We called that action combat a decade ago.

@Naga
As I have described it before in this very thread: I saw ascended gear, saw the option I was given and understood it is a “take it or leave it” option. That’s not a choice. It’s craft ascended or don’t. Play the game or don’t. Have fun or don’t.
I’m not really sure that’s the kind of option we’re supposed to have here, but it made me step away from any goals I might have had in this game, like becoming a better player or running a stronger character, because I chose to “leave it”. Completely broke the game for me. MMORPG shouldn’t be casual games. Their playstyle is not revolutionary or interesting enough to log in just for the sake of it – not after several houndred hours and years of copy-paste.

This is fascinating to me because here we have yet another person validating what some of us have been saying all along about the grind system added for anything and how it’s truly not an alternative to standard mmo play. (the only thing missing is raids and it would literally be a WoW clone under the hood)

I find it equally interesting that they put in post launch all of the things they said this game would never be but at the same time they haven’t used that same mmo history to fix the simplest, easiest problems this game faces when it comes to abuses of loot, pet based class builds, role balance in combat, and cosmetic problems like the backpacks on engineers. There’s a reason people like me are astonished and that’s because they haven’t used these simple yet effective examples to improve the game, while simultaneously using the bad systems that harm players with the excuse of bots like DR.

Their first CDI post ended with some very good ideas on improving the classes with new weapons and skills and I truly hope for their sake that this is the path they go down however, like the previous patch demonstrated (specifically with engineer turrets) the game will not be fixed by putting bandaids on certain areas of the game while the overall system is flawed at the core (which is Turrets/summons needing an AOE damage immunity of 90% and needing automatic target immunity which means players and AI all have to directly click on the turret to target it, no more autotargeting from skills) and this is just one of many many problems that were already cured by other titles long ago.

We’ve waiting a very long time for the game we were promised prelaunch to come out isn’t it time we see at least some of the things we were told would be in this game that was to make it an alternative to the other humdrum games out there?

Thobek.1730:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

It’s funny because the gear grind here is worse than it is in WoW.

You’re wrong.

Unlike WoW where you NEED to grind the gear to complete the next tier of content, in GW2 you don’t.

There is gear to get only if you like the look of it. Some of it gives you a very minor boost in stats but doesn’t allow you to see or play any content someone with only rares can experience.

So long as WvW exists there is a need because the higher stats no matter how high (which is irrelevant btw) create an unfair advantage and until that changes, until ascended gear can only be used in Fractals there will be a need to grind.

I’ve given up too. I have to admit though I’ve certainly gotten my moneys worth. For me the game is simply going in a direction that I’m not prepared to follow. The living story is just straight to bargain bin content unlike the campaigns for GW that I bought and loved playing. The more of them (LS chapters) I missed, the easier it was to detach myself from playing the game, so thanks I guess ANet. You have cured me of my GW addiction of 5 years and GW2 junkiedom of 2 (on/off).

I still read the forums but unless there is the second coming with JC handing out precursors to everyone in game. I’ll never login again.

Escadin.9482:

MMORPG shouldn’t be casual games. Their playstyle is not revolutionary or interesting enough to log in just for the sake of it – not after several houndred hours and years of copy-paste.

Glancing over MMO conversations, you’re obviously not alone with that thought, and that makes me so sad. Should we just accept that no developer will ever dare to stop the copy/paste design? That certainly isn’t going to incentivise them to try.

KarlaGrey.5903:

It is no longer pure cosmetics (would you still opt for the torture of the grind if it wasn’t for that minor stat increase?), and it’s also a dangerous precedent.
Players should be rather wary of what they might be in for in the long run.

But how much of that is a pure perception issue? You’re always gonna have bigger numbers. That was true even in Gw1. I am going to play class x and not a,b,c because class x has a build that does more damage then any build a,b,c can give you (perfect balance just doesnt exist). I need to grind to get the best runes for me and my heroes. I need to grind to get my reputation based skills to the max. And anyhow having the largest number possible all the time was a mathematical impossibility in Gw1 I would say cause you had the conset which amongst the materials needed also needed 3 skill points and i dont think it is possible to level 3 times every 30 mins to keep it on all the time.

At the end of the day its all really how much you’re willing to invest for the advantage and if that advantage is even worth it. If I play a necro, ranger, engineer… etc.. I can never hope to have the raw damage output a warrior has and the gab is much much much wider then exotic – ascended but does that mean that everyone should play warrior or that I as engineer cannot enjoy the game like a warrior does? Or that I as a necro have no future in WvW? simply speaking numbers arent everything.

That being said in Gw2 things are a lot less grindy when you dont try to acquire them too quickly. Something related to this last week I noticed that dragonite ore, empyreal fragements and bloodstone dust wasnt leaving my inventory when I did a send collectables to bank… ohh surprise I have enough mats for another ascended weapon. Back then at release for people its was ohh no 25 dungeons runs, 25 world bosses etc… grindy! But thats the beauty of what arenanet did, for like nearly every reward all you need is to play the game and eventually you’ll get there. I didnt repeat a single thing for an ascended weapon, technically i wasnt even planning to craft one yet still I got the required stuff by playing the content I chose to play.

Sirendor.1394:

Nage.1520:

Sirendor.1394:

The thing is Nage, why is it there when it’s completely optional? Why did they waste time and resources on something that lacks sense?

Why have jumping puzzles when they’re completely optional? Why have vistas when they’re completely optional? Why have caves when they’re completely optional.

Anet tried to create a themepark MMO with different things for different people to do. Some people love mini games, some people hate them. So Anet included them, but they’re optional.

Some people enjoy grinding for gear? Why? No clue, hate it myself, but for some, that’s what MMOs are about. So Anet provided it.

The trick was to make it so that those who didn’t want it didn’t have to get it. I think Anet made a fair compromise on that score.

Edit: Wish I’d read Galen’s response before posting, I could have saved myself the time. lol

Jumping puzzles have an intrinsic ‘telos’: you do them to do them (because you like doing them). Ascended gear lacks that obviously: you don’t get ascended gear because you like getting ascended gear… don’t say people like grinding, all they care about is the shiny pink name.

strictly speaking it should be you get ascended gear because you like vertical progression and want to advance in fractals. Problem here in my opinion that you have a problem where as people dont want to do vertical progression but have to have the best numbers possible when it comes to gear even though they’re perfectly fine neglecting other areas such as consumables or even engaging in support to boost allies damage output.

Without the grind in this game – there is little to no content to do for a level 80.

But, The issue isn’t the grind even – it’s the complete lack of viable reward’s for said grind.

The RNG system in this game is a slap in the face to player’s.

It basically boils down to this imo: Here are some real niffty items or mats we know you want / need. Here is some DR and .076 chances of getting them.

HAVE FUN !

Bleh.

tigirius.9014:

Thobek.1730:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

It’s funny because the gear grind here is worse than it is in WoW.

You’re wrong.

Unlike WoW where you NEED to grind the gear to complete the next tier of content, in GW2 you don’t.

There is gear to get only if you like the look of it. Some of it gives you a very minor boost in stats but doesn’t allow you to see or play any content someone with only rares can experience.

So long as WvW exists there is a need because the higher stats no matter how high (which is irrelevant btw) create an unfair advantage and until that changes, until ascended gear can only be used in Fractals there will be a need to grind.

does it really? We can all agree at least I hope that WvW is inherintly unbalanced and nothing can ever be done to change even though in the grand scheme of things that unbalance isnt strictly speaking a problem because it applies the same way to everyone.

When you have something thats unbalanced and you introduce a new unbalancing factor you cannot ever claim if that unbalance makes things better or worst cause it will always depends on the situation.

Example you and a friend both in exotic armor come across this solo character in ascended gear. Is the ascended gear an unfair advantage? no you have an unfair advantage in that you’re 2 against 1 and the ascended gear is actually slightly balancing things out.

And how much does that unfair advantage really matter? I dont know how many players per server can be in a single map. long long time ago arenanet had mentioned 500 per server though later said thats actually not the case as wvw cant run smooth with 1500 players it seems. Anyhow with 500 players if your entire server is in exotic and the other servers are in ascended gear going with the 10% advantage that would mean the enemy servers strength wise would be like they’re fielding 100 extra players. Which essentially means balance wise it would be like a group of 5 people come across 6 enemies. A scenario that happens generally in numbers that are much much worst then 5 vs 6 and how many of us think thats such an unfair advantage? and again this is worst case scenario were absolutely no one in my server has anything above exotic and absolutely everyone on the other servers has a full ascended gear set.

Do we really have to worry about 5 vs 6 when all the planets align against us when its quite common you’re a small group of like 10 or so players and get attacked by some 100 person zerg?