Guild Wars 2

Azreell.1568:

Without the grind in this game – there is little to no content to do for a level 80.

But, The issue isn’t the grind even – it’s the complete lack of viable reward’s for said grind.

The RNG system in this game is a slap in the face to player’s.

It basically boils down to this imo: Here are some real niffty items or mats we know you want / need. Here is some DR and .076 chances of getting them.

HAVE FUN !

Bleh.

LIES!!!!!!

0.076% is too high

Azreell.1568:

Without the grind in this game – there is little to no content to do for a level 80.

But, The issue isn’t the grind even – it’s the complete lack of viable reward’s for said grind.

The RNG system in this game is a slap in the face to player’s.

It basically boils down to this imo: Here are some real niffty items or mats we know you want / need. Here is some DR and .076 chances of getting them.

HAVE FUN !

Bleh.

What makes a reward viable? Bigger numbers? Obviously doesn’t work in this game without perpetuating gear tiers. More gold? Yeah, that’ll help the economy a lot in the long run. What’s so nifty about those items that you want them so bad? Is there anything you currently can’t do in the game because you don’t have them?

The basic design of GW2 makes the traditional MMO loot scheme kinda useless, since it has no gated content.

Some donkeys are still chasing the carrot out of habit, because they always do, but more and more are realising they aren’t hungry anymore, and they’d rather stop pulling the carriage and go play on the fields.

Paul.4081:

Azreell.1568:

Without the grind in this game – there is little to no content to do for a level 80.

But, The issue isn’t the grind even – it’s the complete lack of viable reward’s for said grind.

The RNG system in this game is a slap in the face to player’s.

It basically boils down to this imo: Here are some real niffty items or mats we know you want / need. Here is some DR and .076 chances of getting them.

HAVE FUN !

Bleh.

LIES!!!!!!

0.076% is too high

I said this in another posts. A few things need to happen to change all this. The grind isn’t even the problem to be honest. Most games have a grind, but the grind in gw2 is probably the most unrewarding one I have ever seen.

The DR system needs to go. Period. It’s a ridiculous system which punishes players – especially when you create so many grinds and have such low drop rates. Boss encounters like Teq need their loot tables increased again. The guy who just opened 80 teq bags and got nothing but blues and greens pretty much should tell you something isn’t working right.

The entire time investment/risk vs reward system in this game needs a complete overhaul.

We don’t want loot to fall from the sky. But, at the same time I don’t want a better chance of hitting power ball IRl then getting a piece of useful loot in this game.

Naqaj.6219:

Azreell.1568:

Without the grind in this game – there is little to no content to do for a level 80.

But, The issue isn’t the grind even – it’s the complete lack of viable reward’s for said grind.

The RNG system in this game is a slap in the face to player’s.

It basically boils down to this imo: Here are some real niffty items or mats we know you want / need. Here is some DR and .076 chances of getting them.

HAVE FUN !

Bleh.

What makes a reward viable? Bigger numbers? Obviously doesn’t work in this game without perpetuating gear tiers. More gold? Yeah, that’ll help the economy a lot in the long run. What’s so nifty about those items that you want them so bad? Is there anything you currently can’t do in the game because you don’t have them?

The basic design of GW2 makes the traditional MMO loot scheme kinda useless, since it has no gated content.

Some donkeys are still chasing the carrot out of habit, because they always do, but more and more are realising they aren’t hungry anymore, and they’d rather stop pulling the carriage and go play on the fields.

This game lacks a complete sense of accomplishment and reward. It still uses a 15yr + old system that was originally designed by EQ1 – the carrot on a stick. The only difference being the loot is not tied to power of a character generally – which itself started to change with ascended gear.

But, We may differ fundamentally though. After playing on the same fields for a year – more players then not are bored of the lack of grass to graze on.

You can only do the same thing so many times with nothing to gain or loose before looking elsewhere – which is something Anet realizes and thus why you see so many CDI posts as well as complaint posts pop up recently.

L2P, go sPvP, make juutuup video, get lots of chicks, profit. Much better reward system than some pixel rewards.

Naqaj.6219:

Azreell.1568:

Without the grind in this game – there is little to no content to do for a level 80.

But, The issue isn’t the grind even – it’s the complete lack of viable reward’s for said grind.

The RNG system in this game is a slap in the face to player’s.

It basically boils down to this imo: Here are some real niffty items or mats we know you want / need. Here is some DR and .076 chances of getting them.

HAVE FUN !

Bleh.

What makes a reward viable? Bigger numbers? Obviously doesn’t work in this game without perpetuating gear tiers. More gold? Yeah, that’ll help the economy a lot in the long run. What’s so nifty about those items that you want them so bad? Is there anything you currently can’t do in the game because you don’t have them?

The basic design of GW2 makes the traditional MMO loot scheme kinda useless, since it has no gated content.

Some donkeys are still chasing the carrot out of habit, because they always do, but more and more are realising they aren’t hungry anymore, and they’d rather stop pulling the carriage and go play on the fields.

Here we go again. Let’s declare the lack of longterm motivation a feature!
No offense, but in the game GW2 tries to be, endgame rewards should be:
-Extremely impressive and new ability sprites
We have legendaries but not everyone likes unicorns, not every profession can make use of them, there are not enough and their supposed precursor (ascended) fail to live up to this.

-New abilities
Something GW1 apparently had.

-New and rather unique ways to set up and define your character.

Just a few things that instantly come to my mind and would fit the game way better than [trivial stat improvements] or as you’d apparently prefer [nothing].

Escadin.9482:

Naqaj.6219:

Azreell.1568:

Without the grind in this game – there is little to no content to do for a level 80.

But, The issue isn’t the grind even – it’s the complete lack of viable reward’s for said grind.

The RNG system in this game is a slap in the face to player’s.

It basically boils down to this imo: Here are some real niffty items or mats we know you want / need. Here is some DR and .076 chances of getting them.

HAVE FUN !

Bleh.

What makes a reward viable? Bigger numbers? Obviously doesn’t work in this game without perpetuating gear tiers. More gold? Yeah, that’ll help the economy a lot in the long run. What’s so nifty about those items that you want them so bad? Is there anything you currently can’t do in the game because you don’t have them?

The basic design of GW2 makes the traditional MMO loot scheme kinda useless, since it has no gated content.

Some donkeys are still chasing the carrot out of habit, because they always do, but more and more are realising they aren’t hungry anymore, and they’d rather stop pulling the carriage and go play on the fields.

Here we go again. Let’s declare the lack of longterm motivation a feature!
In the game GW2 tries to be, endgame rewards should be:
-Extremely impressive and new ability sprites
We have legendaries but not everyone likes unicorns, not every profession can make use of them, there are not enough and their supposed precursor (ascended) fail to live up to this.

-New abilities
Something GW1 apparently had.

-New and rather unique ways to set up and define your character.

Just a few things that instantly come to my mind and would fit the game way better than trivial stat improvements.

See I agree with you.

My problem as well as apparently many other peoples is the way in which Anet designed the systems to acquire said things.

DR – The diminishing return system in this game needs to go. It basically does nothing but frustrate players – especially when you design content/recipes which require such vast amount of materials.

Loot Drop Tables – Need a complete overhaul. We do not want loot to fall from the sky , but at the same time – we don’t want it to seem impossible to get something worthwhile.

The current systems in game simply frustrate players far to much.

I don’t mind DR, I do mind DR when there is really only one viable endgame zone (Frostgorge Sound).

If the rewards for Orr weren’t so bad and it wasn’t so annoying to be there, I may use it too.

But even with better loot and less irritating traversal it still would be an ugly zone.

Since “END-GAME” has become one of the eminent topics in this large thread, lets elaborate?

1. What does Anet do wrong in terms of End-Game?
There is no actual end-game content:

• Dungeons are a repetition of content. Random variation in paths is non-existent.
• Gear makes for a very time-consuming end-game activity, BUT it isn’t actually combat, it’s just a number grind.

On a side-mark:

• World vs. World could be end-game, but there’s no progression, no guild customization, no commander evolution, no story campaigns or combat missions.
• “Structured” PvP could have been end-game if it had a LOT more game modes, more maps etc.

2- What should have been end-game?

• Profession specific missions:
  - Theft for thieves (break into houses in both pve as pvp, pick-pocket or deceive)
  - Engineering for engineers (eg. developing new potions, creating new weapon types as kits etc),
  - Elemental experiments for elementalists
  - Mercenary jobs for warriors
  - Protectorate missions, holy works for guardians
  - Wilderness survival and pet training, archery for rangers
  - Death arts, summoning, conjuring for necromancers
• Profession specific npc ‘guilds’ in cities with story elements and progression, as well as class-specific armour and weapon skins unlocking
• Guild halls with GvGvG and sandbox building of houses
• Alliance wars with a good story background instead of WvW
• Dungeons: explorable mode REALLY explorable, not a pre-made path, but explore at your own liking, looking for hidden passages, special challenge rooms etc
• Gear: no stat differences such as berserker, cleric, soldier… but skin unlockments through doing quests in the world
• Massive personal story that focuses on the hero and is written a lot better (give us something like GW1 personal story… amazing quality that)
• Instances with bigger groups next to the 5-man dungeons.

Escadin.9482:

Here we go again. Let’s declare the lack of longterm motivation a feature!

Not at all. GW2 is absolutely lacking longterm motivation, no question.

The point is: loot rewards are a horrible design for longterm motivation. They work by addressing the basic needs of hoarding and collecting, but they are terrible for a game that doesn’t have a linear, finite structure, but is open-ended like an MMO.

Escadin.9482:

No offense, but in the game GW2 tries to be, endgame rewards should be:

No offense, but in the game GW2 tries to be, there is no endgame. MMOs don’t have an end. Your character progression has an end, because progression needs an end to work. To keep players motivated, there needs to be something to do after your characters has finished progression. PvP is one option, but not to everyones taste. The Living Story can’t fill that function either because it is entirely out of the hands of the players. DE’s could have been that motivation if they were much, MUCH larger in scope and effect, but it seems that design has been abandoned.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Nage.1520:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Weird how the grind on GW1 somehow never felt as revolting and bothersome as it did/does on GW2 though.

Vanquishing felt very bothersome, Cartography half required me to use extra resources to compare maps to try to suss out the last 0.5% I needed more than once, and any of the PvP events felt revolting to me. (Especially Fort Aspenwood.) Also, while I might find something which looked neat or possibly could have been valuable? Lolz, no, it’s not even 1k. So making money was a lot of scraping it up or abusing the desire for “consets” to turn a quick buck.

Also, Foundry of Failed Creations from DoA can just go jump off a pier with chains around ankles.

I honestly never did any insane grinding and yet I could still obtain virtually everything bar for some ultra rare minipets.
Must’ve been magic, eh.

Must have been. I won’t be able at all to buy Obsidian Armor due to the pricey components without some serious plat grind.

Vanquishing is something I did when I felt like dabbing in pve with a friend or two, but why grind the title, if it’s no fun? I never did exploration for cartography titles (I am actually proud of my Tyrian Explorer [60%]), but I can imagine completing the game without skipping large chunks of content gave you about 70-80% already.
However why would you compare something completely optional to the far-from-optional gear grind here? A change in numbers is still a change, no matter how minor and insignificant it may seem.
Also, to me the ecto/shards farming was a lot of fun during the OS days, but hey. Old-school sf 4 man runs were awesome too, and that feel/atmosphere is completely lost with GW2. I get the feeling you didn’t play during those days though, which is a real pity.

Many players, probably even most players see the gear grind here as completely optional. It really is a matter of opinion.

It is no longer pure cosmetics (would you still opt for the torture of the grind if it wasn’t for that minor stat increase?), and it’s also a dangerous precedent.
Players should be rather wary of what they might be in for in the long run.

This I agree with. It is a dangerous precedent. But I think the company really is vested in making it so anyone can do any content, pretty much with any gear.

Gear means a whole lot less in this game already than it does in most others. I mean people already do naked dungeon runs of some of the hardest dungeons. I’m thinking that people are overestimating in their head how important stats are based on experiences they’ve had from other games.

Sirendor.1394:

Since “END-GAME” has become one of the eminent topics in this large thread, lets elaborate?

1. What does Anet do wrong in terms of End-Game?
There is no actual end-game content:

• Dungeons are a repetition of content. Random variation in paths is non-existent.
• Gear makes for a very time-consuming end-game activity, BUT it isn’t actually combat, it’s just a number grind.

On a side-mark:

• World vs. World could be end-game, but there’s no progression, no guild customization, no commander evolution, no story campaigns or combat missions.
• “Structured” PvP could have been end-game if it had a LOT more game modes, more maps etc.

2- What should have been end-game?

• Profession specific missions:
  - Theft for thieves (break into houses in both pve as pvp, pick-pocket or deceive)
  - Engineering for engineers (eg. developing new potions, creating new weapon types as kits etc),
  - Elemental experiments for elementalists
  - Mercenary jobs for warriors
  - Protectorate missions, holy works for guardians
  - Wilderness survival and pet training, archery for rangers
  - Death arts, summoning, conjuring for necromancers
• Profession specific npc ‘guilds’ in cities with story elements and progression, as well as class-specific armour and weapon skins unlocking
• Guild halls with GvGvG and sandbox building of houses
• Alliance wars with a good story background instead of WvW
• Dungeons: explorable mode REALLY explorable, not a pre-made path, but explore at your own liking, looking for hidden passages, special challenge rooms etc
• Gear: no stat differences such as berserker, cleric, soldier… but skin unlockments through doing quests in the world
• Massive personal story that focuses on the hero and is written a lot better (give us something like GW1 personal story… amazing quality that)
• Instances with bigger groups next to the 5-man dungeons.

One of the reasons I specifically bought this game is that it was advertised as having no end game.

Nage.1520:

One of the reasons I specifically bought this game is that it was advertised as having no end game.

Seconded, though I have to say I thought they figured out something else in it’s place that keeps the game interesting, and on that they haven’t quite delivered the way I expected

Tifa Lockheart Ex.9614:

Nope!, I gave up on this game 6 months ago and so glad I did!. Huge fan of GW1 played for 6 years, GW2 isn’t what I imagine it to be aka boring with very little feeling of accomplishment (except for fractal level 50 before they lower the level).

bump this is my story =/ I even remember the patch the sealed the deal killing the last sliver of hope I had held onto for so long for this game. I have not played in 6 months, and only now have I logged into the game to help friends and give out items. But I can hardly even stand to be online for more then 25 mins in the game.. My own personal opinion is this game is just not for me anymore and no longer fun or what I seek. Real shame I feel like their is a huge internal disconnect over at Nsoft/Arena-Net the art team and follow threw on all these great things seems to end up taking a back seat along side common sense for a quick fix and a fast $$$

Naqaj.6219:

Nage.1520:

One of the reasons I specifically bought this game is that it was advertised as having no end game.

Seconded, though I have to say I thought they figured out something else in it’s place that keeps the game interesting, and on that they haven’t quite delivered the way I expected

Lets point at the fact that this is a themepark game. Themeparks need end-game, because they lack the self-sustained content of sandboxes. I would have been totally fine with no end-game, when there was at least the facility for making your own adventure.

The inspiring examples of self-created end-game in this game are the role-players, but they have no resources inside the game, besides their own imagination and a (I hope) loyal roleplaying community. Next to that there are a couple pvp guilds, but those are also role-playing in a certain way, because WvW offers no facility for it either.

They missed the boat with making this a themepark.

I truly think a lot of there systems would have been better suited to a sandbox style game.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Vanquishing is something I did when I felt like dabbing in pve with a friend or two, but why grind the title, if it’s no fun?

I didn’t grind the title. I was going to try for the completion and so I could get my Hall of Monuments points up. But it was either boring or really difficult for some places so I just gave up on it.

I never did exploration for cartography titles (I am actually proud of my Tyrian Explorer [60%]), but I can imagine completing the game without skipping large chunks of content gave you about 70-80% already.

Tyrian was almost the worst due to large swaths which you didn’t ever have to visit. Canthan was almost bad since there were a few places which you had limited access to counting on the %. Elonian was just more frustrating to get a proper “scrape” going.

However why would you compare something completely optional to the far-from-optional gear grind here? A change in numbers is still a change, no matter how minor and insignificant it may seem.

Because, and once more try to follow me on this, it is optional. The game is balanced, mostly, towards Exotic-level stats and Ascended being higher means it’s over the point of balance. So really, all you need to be on the ball for PvE is Exotic. PvP? Doesn’t matter, everyone’s leveled out on stats. WvW? Only if they make an Ascended Arrow Cart.

Also, to me the ecto/shards farming was a lot of fun during the OS days, but hey. Old-school sf 4 man runs were awesome too, and that feel/atmosphere is completely lost with GW2. I get the feeling you didn’t play during those days though, which is a real pity.

No, I played during those days but my primary focus was at that point Skill Capping and more exploratory. I couldn’t get into Sorrow’s Furnace because . . . survey says . . . not having done it before. So because I hadn’t done it before, nobody would take me to do it. (Similar as to why I got passed over again and again for UW/FOW.)

Nage.1520:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Weird how the grind on GW1 somehow never felt as revolting and bothersome as it did/does on GW2 though.

Vanquishing felt very bothersome, Cartography half required me to use extra resources to compare maps to try to suss out the last 0.5% I needed more than once, and any of the PvP events felt revolting to me. (Especially Fort Aspenwood.) Also, while I might find something which looked neat or possibly could have been valuable? Lolz, no, it’s not even 1k. So making money was a lot of scraping it up or abusing the desire for “consets” to turn a quick buck.

Also, Foundry of Failed Creations from DoA can just go jump off a pier with chains around ankles.

I honestly never did any insane grinding and yet I could still obtain virtually everything bar for some ultra rare minipets.
Must’ve been magic, eh.

Must have been. I won’t be able at all to buy Obsidian Armor due to the pricey components without some serious plat grind.

Vanquishing is something I did when I felt like dabbing in pve with a friend or two, but why grind the title, if it’s no fun? I never did exploration for cartography titles (I am actually proud of my Tyrian Explorer [60%]), but I can imagine completing the game without skipping large chunks of content gave you about 70-80% already.
However why would you compare something completely optional to the far-from-optional gear grind here? A change in numbers is still a change, no matter how minor and insignificant it may seem.
Also, to me the ecto/shards farming was a lot of fun during the OS days, but hey. Old-school sf 4 man runs were awesome too, and that feel/atmosphere is completely lost with GW2. I get the feeling you didn’t play during those days though, which is a real pity.

Many players, probably even most players see the gear grind here as completely optional. It really is a matter of opinion.

in GW1 you can get every single armor in the game by simply playing, in GW2 you need to grind your perverbal behind off to get even a shred of good gear.
heck, in GW1 a basic armor/weapon is enough to get what you need, it’s all equal in stats and it eventually is about cosmetic instead of stats.
in GW2 you need allot of gold to get anything good, stats become really important and with the additions of jewels it made gear even more stat depending.

what if all the jewels are removed from the game and the highest stat you can get is from white armors/weapons, gear grind becomes optional because now it more about the cosmetic part rather then the gear grind we have now.

oh and BTW, i used to have problems getting gold in GW1, now even i can get plenty of gold if i wanted to.
gold grind in GW2 is still horrible, zergs and speed cleans is the only way to get gold, something that doesn’t even exist in GW1 because zerging kills your team faster then you can cast a spell.

sorudo.9054:

in GW1 you can get every single armor in the game by simply playing, in GW2 you need to grind your perverbal behind off to get even a shred of good gear.

You did? Really? Please enlighten me how, by simply playing, I got to Obsidian Armor? I had four trips through UW and only got three Ectoplasm; I only got two Obsidian Shards through two trips of Fissure of Woe.

And I didn’t have to grind very much at all for my old Exotic longbow, or my Armageddon armor. Notably, I suspect very few people who play WvW have to “grind” for their exotic Invader’s set.

heck, in GW1 a basic armor/weapon is enough to get what you need, it’s all equal in stats and it eventually is about cosmetic instead of stats.

They’re not all equal in stats. In any maximum-level end-game zone the swords would drop anywhere from Req 8 to Req 13 and were not always guaranteed to be maximum damage range. I had a gold, Req 13, 13-20 sword drop from the last mission in Prophecies.

Though the gear is somewhat moot because all you really needed for PvE were two Rits and a Necro.

in GW2 you need allot of gold to get anything good, stats become really important and with the additions of jewels it made gear even more stat depending.

With the addition of Inscriptions, a lot of weapons farmed outside of Nightfall/EOTN became useless. So . . .

what if all the jewels are removed from the game and the highest stat you can get is from white armors/weapons, gear grind becomes optional because now it more about the cosmetic part rather then the gear grind we have now.

We’d see half the players who spent actual time and/or money getting Ascended or specific Exotic gear quit loudly and rage forever. Not to mention those who would get jailed for homicide over the new adjustment to Legendaries.

oh and BTW, i used to have problems getting gold in GW1, now even i can get plenty of gold if i wanted to.
gold grind in GW2 is still horrible, zergs and speed cleans is the only way to get gold, something that doesn’t even exist in GW1 because zerging kills your team faster then you can cast a spell.

Gold/Plat grind in GW1 is just as bad as Gold grind in GW2. Also, can’t compare zerging in GW2 to trying it in GW1 since you’d have at most 12 people doing it and that’s really not enough. Though I did successfully have a group which zerged Kanaxai, so there is that.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

sorudo.9054:

in GW1 you can get every single armor in the game by simply playing, in GW2 you need to grind your perverbal behind off to get even a shred of good gear.

You did? Really? Please enlighten me how, by simply playing, I got to Obsidian Armor? I had four trips through UW and only got three Ectoplasm; I only got two Obsidian Shards through two trips of Fissure of Woe.

And I didn’t have to grind very much at all for my old Exotic longbow, or my Armageddon armor. Notably, I suspect very few people who play WvW have to “grind” for their exotic Invader’s set.

you can get maxed armor in drognar, what you’re talking about is elite armor, not the easy to get kind…..

heck, in GW1 a basic armor/weapon is enough to get what you need, it’s all equal in stats and it eventually is about cosmetic instead of stats.

They’re not all equal in stats. In any maximum-level end-game zone the swords would drop anywhere from Req 8 to Req 13 and were not always guaranteed to be maximum damage range. I had a gold, Req 13, 13-20 sword drop from the last mission in Prophecies.

Though the gear is somewhat moot because all you really needed for PvE were two Rits and a Necro.

you can buy max weapons with the least amount of gold, i think all you need is 5K and you can already but a really good one.
the mods on them is a different thing but then again, that all depends on your profession and build.

in GW2 you need allot of gold to get anything good, stats become really important and with the additions of jewels it made gear even more stat depending.

With the addition of Inscriptions, a lot of weapons farmed outside of Nightfall/EOTN became useless. So . . .

that’s moot, you’re just trying to find an argument to win, not to argue the issue at hand….

what if all the jewels are removed from the game and the highest stat you can get is from white armors/weapons, gear grind becomes optional because now it more about the cosmetic part rather then the gear grind we have now.

We’d see half the players who spent actual time and/or money getting Ascended or specific Exotic gear quit loudly and rage forever. Not to mention those who would get jailed for homicide over the new adjustment to Legendaries.

lovely isnt it, so many ppl raging about such a trival thing yet it balances the game allot better then you can even imagine…

oh and BTW, i used to have problems getting gold in GW1, now even i can get plenty of gold if i wanted to.
gold grind in GW2 is still horrible, zergs and speed cleans is the only way to get gold, something that doesn’t even exist in GW1 because zerging kills your team faster then you can cast a spell.

Gold/Plat grind in GW1 is just as bad as Gold grind in GW2. Also, can’t compare zerging in GW2 to trying it in GW1 since you’d have at most 12 people doing it and that’s really not enough. Though I did successfully have a group which zerged Kanaxai, so there is that.

really, just as bad?
i can get a few plat in GW1 while playing regular areas, it takes me weeks to get some gold in GW2.
not so “as bad” as you’re claiming, it’s actually better and more casual friendly.

Galen Grey.4709:

there is one big problem with most argument here. You’re assuming that developers are sacrificing game play for monotization but those two are intertwined. who is going to pay if they’re not playing? and who is going to play just cause they have stuff to buy? simply speaking if a sizeable amount of players do not enjoy game play choices they made they wouldnt be making the dollar amounts they’re making.

- The argument that gameplay and revenue are intertwined doesn’t hold if you look at another example: slot machines. They have no gameplay value yet they bring revenue to casinos and gas stations. The key is to hook players in a manner that makes them spend money on your game.

Zenith.6403:

Galen Grey.4709:

there is one big problem with most argument here. You’re assuming that developers are sacrificing game play for monotization but those two are intertwined. who is going to pay if they’re not playing? and who is going to play just cause they have stuff to buy? simply speaking if a sizeable amount of players do not enjoy game play choices they made they wouldnt be making the dollar amounts they’re making.

- The argument that gameplay and revenue are intertwined doesn’t hold if you look at another example: slot machines. They have no gameplay value yet they bring revenue to casinos and gas stations. The key is to hook players in a manner that makes them spend money on your game.

This is a poor example because the motivations for gambling are completely different.

Stone.6751:

Zenith.6403:

Galen Grey.4709:

there is one big problem with most argument here. You’re assuming that developers are sacrificing game play for monotization but those two are intertwined. who is going to pay if they’re not playing? and who is going to play just cause they have stuff to buy? simply speaking if a sizeable amount of players do not enjoy game play choices they made they wouldnt be making the dollar amounts they’re making.

- The argument that gameplay and revenue are intertwined doesn’t hold if you look at another example: slot machines. They have no gameplay value yet they bring revenue to casinos and gas stations. The key is to hook players in a manner that makes them spend money on your game.

This is a poor example because the motivations for gambling are completely different.

Agreed, although there is some similarity in GW2 in the form of RNG boxes and dropping time into high-level fractals if your only goal is getting a fractal weapon.

Sirendor.1394:

Naqaj.6219:

Nage.1520:

One of the reasons I specifically bought this game is that it was advertised as having no end game.

Seconded, though I have to say I thought they figured out something else in it’s place that keeps the game interesting, and on that they haven’t quite delivered the way I expected

Lets point at the fact that this is a themepark game. Themeparks need end-game, because they lack the self-sustained content of sandboxes. I would have been totally fine with no end-game, when there was at least the facility for making your own adventure.

The inspiring examples of self-created end-game in this game are the role-players, but they have no resources inside the game, besides their own imagination and a (I hope) loyal roleplaying community. Next to that there are a couple pvp guilds, but those are also role-playing in a certain way, because WvW offers no facility for it either.

Why do you think themeparks need end game? I don’t find that to be true.

In most themepark games, only a small percentage of the people actually play end game. This was true even in Guild Wars 1.

People who love end game assume that most players like end game. Most people don’t. Very few people, by percentage, like the most challenging content.

Most people just log in, bang around in the open world for a while, kill a few things, and maybe run the occassional dungeon. Most people don’t raid, Most people don’t do DOA.

So why does a themepark MMO need end game ?

I don’t think its remotely wrong to give up on Gw2. Gameplay is basically solo or zerging, depending on scale, and completely lacks to satisfaction of executing tactics and creative builds that GW1 had with either players or heroes.

The other thing that has continued to really bug me are A) the mishandling of the storyline (bad writing, no hint of continuation of any sort of Personal storyline after Zhaitan, etc) and the way some bugs (Mad King runes summoning hawks instead of crows) and some gameplay issues (mesmers are useless compared to gsword guardians) are NEVER going to be fixed.

I just pass through some time, for old times sake.

sorudo.9054:

that’s moot, you’re just trying to find an argument to win, not to argue the issue at hand….

Winning isn’t my goal here, it’s rebutting your nostalgia with what I actually experienced.

lovely isnt it, so many ppl raging about such a trival thing yet it balances the game allot better then you can even imagine…

Try to stick with me here, it doesn’t matter how balanced a game is if you tick off a significant portion your players to that extent. Adding Ascended annoyed more than it angered. This move? This would be so much worse.

I can agree, there would be something “lovely” in the released rage. What wouldn’t be lovely is the result of that rage.

really, just as bad?
i can get a few plat in GW1 while playing regular areas, it takes me weeks to get some gold in GW2.
not so “as bad” as you’re claiming, it’s actually better and more casual friendly.

Really just as bad. If you know how or where to work the farms, you can make gold/plat in either game. I mentioned consets as one potential, another is simply farming the heck out of feathers – you can make a lot that way.

There are ways in GW2 to make that kind of money, with that kind of speed. And there are ways of very steadily making money without playing the Trading Post, which aren’t quite as “get rich quick” as “get rich with less risk”.

Gear grind is fine, if you enjoy what you need to do to get it.

The problem as I see it, is that content must be repeated far too many times to get it.

The first 3 times I leveled a new character, I had fun in Tyria.

Then it got really tiresome, because I was repeating the same content over and over.

By the time I got my 6th character to 80 I just couldn’t do it anymore. I couldn’t do the same content one more time. I was finished.

The gear in GW2 is somewhat disappointing – it’s all stat bonuses. No abilities or new effects on proc.

Most of the high end stuff isn’t even particularly great looking either (although some of it is).

GW2 should have more action based combat, instead of the standard MMO tab-targeting and long CD’s.

But, to be honest, there are many things I like about GW2 combat – the dodge roll is really awesome.

Regardless, the problem with the grind is not that you are “grinding” – the problem with it is that you have to grind in the same place over and over and over again.

The world simply isn’t big enough by half.

I’ve said this a dozen times now, and I’ll repeat it again: the size of the world needs to triple.

Loot needs to be more diverse. Loot that actually does neat stuff, aside from just giving static stat bonuses.

Stat bonuses are boring.

More classes. More playable races. More skills/weapons to choose from.

All of the things Anet will avoid like the plague because it either costs money, or because it upsets their precious “balance”.

We need more places to explore – more battlefields to fight on.

More content. Triple the amount of playable area in the game. Remove barriers to exploration, like invisible walls and loading zones.

Add superfluous things that add texture and variety to the world (interactive elements and common/useless items).

Period.

I forgot to add:

Character customization (traits) needs to be a lot deeper and more meaningful. I miss games where my skill points unlock new skills.

To the OP.. no you are not wrong. It is up to you to decide where you spend your time. Tonight I have decided to throw in the towel myself…..
Loved GW1…liked GW2….
I put my money where I find worth and have bought gems to support GW2.
Lately it’s just a grind to me….LS is Meh for me.
I have fought these factions and won? now they are back? fighting for Scarlet again?
Timing in a story is important…I just don’t care anymore.
WvW which held some interest is dying.
Many guildies are no longer on.
To top it off many of ANets recent actions seem just a money grab.
I maybe back .
Maybe they will have fixed the undead hawks in Orr by then, they make a crowlike squawk when you kill them

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Ashen.2907:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Can’t speak on EvE Online. But I do know I face a bigger grind going back into GW1 to finish my Hall of Monuments title track. Not to mention the grind for “God Amongst Mere Mortals”. There will be an incredible grind for those last 15 points or so, not to mention 20 title tracks.

I am not one of those who will argue that GW1 did not have grind. I didn’t encounter it, but I know others did. Still, GWAMM and HoM grind were for cosmetic options, something we were told would be how grind was handled in GW2, for cosmetics only. GW2, instead, has implemented time gated vertical progression gear grind.

I’m going to try not to laugh loud and hard about that statement of “Time gated vertical progression gear grind”.

I could list, again, a lot of things I know I found grindy in GW1 and I only just hit the tip of the iceberg.

Feel free to laugh if you like.

I pointed out that the HoM title grind was a matter of cosmetics as was indicated would be the case in GW2.

I never denied that GW1 had grind for some people.

Just remember the only purpose for video games is to provide an income for developers and to provide a means for players a way to kill time. Chose how you kill time wisely. Life is short.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

sorudo.9054:

in GW1 you can get every single armor in the game by simply playing, in GW2 you need to grind your perverbal behind off to get even a shred of good gear.

You did? Really? Please enlighten me how, by simply playing, I got to Obsidian Armor? I had four trips through UW and only got three Ectoplasm; I only got two Obsidian Shards through two trips of Fissure of Woe.

And I didn’t have to grind very much at all for my old Exotic longbow, or my Armageddon armor. Notably, I suspect very few people who play WvW have to “grind” for their exotic Invader’s set.

heck, in GW1 a basic armor/weapon is enough to get what you need, it’s all equal in stats and it eventually is about cosmetic instead of stats.

They’re not all equal in stats. In any maximum-level end-game zone the swords would drop anywhere from Req 8 to Req 13 and were not always guaranteed to be maximum damage range. I had a gold, Req 13, 13-20 sword drop from the last mission in Prophecies.

Though the gear is somewhat moot because all you really needed for PvE were two Rits and a Necro.

in GW2 you need allot of gold to get anything good, stats become really important and with the additions of jewels it made gear even more stat depending.

With the addition of Inscriptions, a lot of weapons farmed outside of Nightfall/EOTN became useless. So . . .

what if all the jewels are removed from the game and the highest stat you can get is from white armors/weapons, gear grind becomes optional because now it more about the cosmetic part rather then the gear grind we have now.

We’d see half the players who spent actual time and/or money getting Ascended or specific Exotic gear quit loudly and rage forever. Not to mention those who would get jailed for homicide over the new adjustment to Legendaries.

oh and BTW, i used to have problems getting gold in GW1, now even i can get plenty of gold if i wanted to.
gold grind in GW2 is still horrible, zergs and speed cleans is the only way to get gold, something that doesn’t even exist in GW1 because zerging kills your team faster then you can cast a spell.

Gold/Plat grind in GW1 is just as bad as Gold grind in GW2. Also, can’t compare zerging in GW2 to trying it in GW1 since you’d have at most 12 people doing it and that’s really not enough. Though I did successfully have a group which zerged Kanaxai, so there is that.

Mate… learn to read.

1. Obsidian was purely cosmetic, the stats were equal to basic armour that cost 1 platinum per piece… you didn’t even need to farm for that, but got enough gold by the time you actually got to level 20. With ascended that is not the case.

On top, armour in GW1 didn’t have stats, where armour in GW2 does… this makes the grind 5 times as hard. In GW1 you needed just 1 armour set and you simply had to swap the runes and insignias if you wanted to change your build.

2. R8-R13 didn’t make any difference apart from being able to equip the weapon with a lesser requirement. For example R8 Swordmanship required you to have only 8 in Swordsmanship. Besides, the gold weapons cost only 2 platinum each, and you could get green ‘boss’ weapons that were the same stats and usually better. You got those from missions and from lucky drops (I think I had like 10 stacked in my bank after 1 year of playing). On top weapons were accountbound: you could use them on any character you wished.

3. Please, don’t say gold farm in GW1 was bad… Do a couple random arenas, fort aspenwood or jade quarry and you got balthazar faction points that you could trade for zaishen keys that sold for easily like 1-2 plat (depending when you played). The only items that required a lot of gold were prestige items with the same stat value as any other item.

Nage.1520:

Sirendor.1394:

Naqaj.6219:

Nage.1520:

One of the reasons I specifically bought this game is that it was advertised as having no end game.

Seconded, though I have to say I thought they figured out something else in it’s place that keeps the game interesting, and on that they haven’t quite delivered the way I expected

Lets point at the fact that this is a themepark game. Themeparks need end-game, because they lack the self-sustained content of sandboxes. I would have been totally fine with no end-game, when there was at least the facility for making your own adventure.

The inspiring examples of self-created end-game in this game are the role-players, but they have no resources inside the game, besides their own imagination and a (I hope) loyal roleplaying community. Next to that there are a couple pvp guilds, but those are also role-playing in a certain way, because WvW offers no facility for it either.

Why do you think themeparks need end game? I don’t find that to be true.

In most themepark games, only a small percentage of the people actually play end game. This was true even in Guild Wars 1.

People who love end game assume that most players like end game. Most people don’t. Very few people, by percentage, like the most challenging content.

Most people just log in, bang around in the open world for a while, kill a few things, and maybe run the occassional dungeon. Most people don’t raid, Most people don’t do DOA.

So why does a themepark MMO need end game ?

What you are saying is that you are still running around in one of the mid-game zones? How many characters exactly do you have at 80? Did you level more than 8 level 80s like me?

The 1st time is okay, the 2nd time is a tad boring, the 3rd time takes a lot of breaks, the 4th time made me farm, the 5th time made me craft, the 6th time made me puke, the 7th time made me quit. The 8th time I was using tomes of knowledge.

The people who ‘just log in, bang around in the open world for a while, kill a few things, and maybe run the occassional dungeon’ are casual players. They never even reach end-game… which is fortunate for them because there isn’t any.

Sirendor.1394:

Nage.1520:

Sirendor.1394:

Naqaj.6219:

Nage.1520:

One of the reasons I specifically bought this game is that it was advertised as having no end game.

Seconded, though I have to say I thought they figured out something else in it’s place that keeps the game interesting, and on that they haven’t quite delivered the way I expected

Lets point at the fact that this is a themepark game. Themeparks need end-game, because they lack the self-sustained content of sandboxes. I would have been totally fine with no end-game, when there was at least the facility for making your own adventure.

The inspiring examples of self-created end-game in this game are the role-players, but they have no resources inside the game, besides their own imagination and a (I hope) loyal roleplaying community. Next to that there are a couple pvp guilds, but those are also role-playing in a certain way, because WvW offers no facility for it either.

Why do you think themeparks need end game? I don’t find that to be true.

In most themepark games, only a small percentage of the people actually play end game. This was true even in Guild Wars 1.

People who love end game assume that most players like end game. Most people don’t. Very few people, by percentage, like the most challenging content.

Most people just log in, bang around in the open world for a while, kill a few things, and maybe run the occassional dungeon. Most people don’t raid, Most people don’t do DOA.

So why does a themepark MMO need end game ?

What you are saying is that you are still running around in one of the mid-game zones? How many characters exactly do you have at 80? Did you level more than 8 level 80s like me?

The 1st time is okay, the 2nd time is a tad boring, the 3rd time takes a lot of breaks, the 4th time made me farm, the 5th time made me craft, the 6th time made me puke, the 7th time made me quit. The 8th time I was using tomes of knowledge.

The people who ‘just log in, bang around in the open world for a while, kill a few things, and maybe run the occassional dungeon’ are casual players. They never even reach end-game… which is fortunate for them because there isn’t any.

I’ve beaten every dungeon in the game. I’ve done fractals up to level 34. I just don’t care to do them that much. Yes, I just bang around the open word. Yes, I have a bunch of 80s.

The difference is, most players ARE casual players. That’s my point. Most players dont’ have 8 – 80s. That’s my point.

You need end game because you need something challenging to do, because you’ve done everything four million times…but that doesn’t make you a majority.

You can see how many good players there are at events like the Marionette. None of those fights on the platforms should have been particularly hard, but they were failed often enough for me to say with some certainty that the bulk of the population doesn’t need challenging end game content.

A small percentage of the playerbase needs that.

Nage.1520:

Sirendor.1394:

Nage.1520:

Sirendor.1394:

Naqaj.6219:

Nage.1520:

One of the reasons I specifically bought this game is that it was advertised as having no end game.

Seconded, though I have to say I thought they figured out something else in it’s place that keeps the game interesting, and on that they haven’t quite delivered the way I expected

Lets point at the fact that this is a themepark game. Themeparks need end-game, because they lack the self-sustained content of sandboxes. I would have been totally fine with no end-game, when there was at least the facility for making your own adventure.

The inspiring examples of self-created end-game in this game are the role-players, but they have no resources inside the game, besides their own imagination and a (I hope) loyal roleplaying community. Next to that there are a couple pvp guilds, but those are also role-playing in a certain way, because WvW offers no facility for it either.

Why do you think themeparks need end game? I don’t find that to be true.

In most themepark games, only a small percentage of the people actually play end game. This was true even in Guild Wars 1.

People who love end game assume that most players like end game. Most people don’t. Very few people, by percentage, like the most challenging content.

Most people just log in, bang around in the open world for a while, kill a few things, and maybe run the occassional dungeon. Most people don’t raid, Most people don’t do DOA.

So why does a themepark MMO need end game ?

What you are saying is that you are still running around in one of the mid-game zones? How many characters exactly do you have at 80? Did you level more than 8 level 80s like me?

The 1st time is okay, the 2nd time is a tad boring, the 3rd time takes a lot of breaks, the 4th time made me farm, the 5th time made me craft, the 6th time made me puke, the 7th time made me quit. The 8th time I was using tomes of knowledge.

The people who ‘just log in, bang around in the open world for a while, kill a few things, and maybe run the occassional dungeon’ are casual players. They never even reach end-game… which is fortunate for them because there isn’t any.

I’ve beaten every dungeon in the game. I’ve done fractals up to level 34. I just don’t care to do them that much. Yes, I just bang around the open word. Yes, I have a bunch of 80s.

The difference is, most players ARE casual players. That’s my point. Most players dont’ have 8 – 80s. That’s my point.

You need end game because you need something challenging to do, because you’ve done everything four million times…but that doesn’t make you a majority.

You can see how many good players there are at events like the Marionette. None of those fights on the platforms should have been particularly hard, but they were failed often enough for me to say with some certainty that the bulk of the population doesn’t need challenging end game content.

A small percentage of the playerbase needs that.

Sorry, but Marionette is not challenging end-game content. It’s rushed mid-level “/fallasleephittingonebutton” content. Many players I have spoken to about Marionette said that they were watching tv while afk-autoattacking things.
I did Marionette once, wondered at the zerg, left the area and never came back. Zerg content is by definition easy and not challenging, at least in the way zergs work in GW2.

One thing I very much liked was the Queen’s Gauntlet. That was worthy of end-game (but got deleted sadly). It was hard enough to be challenging (I died numbrous times), yet not that hard that you ragequitted it.

What you say is fair, not everyone has 8 level 80s, but if I watch at my current guild, everyone there has 4-10 level 80s. We’re a WvW-guild, I’ll owe you that, but it still means a huge percentage has completed the actual content once or more.

Your analysis also says to me: if you completed all the content, there’s no reason to stay! So everyone who completed all content should just go for another game?
That really is dangerous for a game, because it means everyone will move on at a certain point and the game will never have a stable playerbase.

Sirendor.1394:

1. Obsidian was purely cosmetic, the stats were equal to basic armour that cost 1 platinum per piece… you didn’t even need to farm for that, but got enough gold by the time you actually got to level 20. With ascended that is not the case.

On top, armour in GW1 didn’t have stats, where armour in GW2 does… this makes the grind 5 times as hard. In GW1 you needed just 1 armour set and you simply had to swap the runes and insignias if you wanted to change your build.

And yet, everyone behaved as if Obsidian was the end-all of armor for the longest time. It’s still the measuring stick for “grindy as heck armor” for me, because of the incredible expense and time consumption when it was released.

(And yes, the current Ascended passes this up. But considering both are unnecessary . . . )

2. R8-R13 didn’t make any difference apart from being able to equip the weapon with a lesser requirement. For example R8 Swordmanship required you to have only 8 in Swordsmanship.

It did make a difference – the top damage range rarely went lower than 10 and it’s only rumored (as in, I never saw one) to go as low as R8. Good luck getting R13 for the Gothic Sword you saw dropped, with a less-than-maximum damage spread. (This happened more often than I liked.)

Besides, the gold weapons cost only 2 platinum each, and you could get green ‘boss’ weapons that were the same stats and usually better. You got those from missions and from lucky drops (I think I had like 10 stacked in my bank after 1 year of playing). On top weapons were accountbound: you could use them on any character you wished.

Unless they got customized for the +20% damage bonus, and you can’t tell me Urgoz’s Flatbow was much more powerful than a gold Vabbian Flatbow. It could be argued it was worse on a metagame level due to Sundering being less useful on a Flatbow.

But there were intriguing things, such as unique items which could not be recreated in any way statistically. 50 or so items, in fact. Really do miss having that, but on the other hand . . . my bank is cluttered enough :P

3. Please, don’t say gold farm in GW1 was bad… Do a couple random arenas, fort aspenwood or jade quarry and you got balthazar faction points that you could trade for zaishen keys that sold for easily like 1-2 plat (depending when you played). The only items that required a lot of gold were prestige items with the same stat value as any other item.

In my opinion and through my experiences? It’s as bad as the gold farming of GW2, or worse. Take that as you will.

Sirendor.1394:

Sorry, but Marionette is not challenging end-game content. It’s rushed mid-level “/fallasleephittingonebutton” content. Many players I have spoken to about Marionette said that they were watching tv while afk-autoattacking things.

Those would be the sort of people that caused a lot of failed attempts on various servers. The Marionette was not a battle where you could just afk. If there were players that did that, they should feel ashamed. Just like those players afk’ing at the LA entrance right now.

Sirendor.1394:

Nage.1520:

Sirendor.1394:

Nage.1520:

Sirendor.1394:

Naqaj.6219:

Nage.1520:

One of the reasons I specifically bought this game is that it was advertised as having no end game.

Seconded, though I have to say I thought they figured out something else in it’s place that keeps the game interesting, and on that they haven’t quite delivered the way I expected

deleted for space

Why do you think themeparks need end game? I don’t find that to be true.

In most themepark games, only a small percentage of the people actually play end game. This was true even in Guild Wars 1.

People who love end game assume that most players like end game. Most people don’t. Very few people, by percentage, like the most challenging content.

Most people just log in, bang around in the open world for a while, kill a few things, and maybe run the occassional dungeon. Most people don’t raid, Most people don’t do DOA.

So why does a themepark MMO need end game ?

What you are saying is that you are still running around in one of the mid-game zones? How many characters exactly do you have at 80? Did you level more than 8 level 80s like me?

The 1st time is okay, the 2nd time is a tad boring, the 3rd time takes a lot of breaks, the 4th time made me farm, the 5th time made me craft, the 6th time made me puke, the 7th time made me quit. The 8th time I was using tomes of knowledge.

The people who ‘just log in, bang around in the open world for a while, kill a few things, and maybe run the occassional dungeon’ are casual players. They never even reach end-game… which is fortunate for them because there isn’t any.

I’ve beaten every dungeon in the game. I’ve done fractals up to level 34. I just don’t care to do them that much. Yes, I just bang around the open word. Yes, I have a bunch of 80s.

The difference is, most players ARE casual players. That’s my point. Most players dont’ have 8 – 80s. That’s my point.

You need end game because you need something challenging to do, because you’ve done everything four million times…but that doesn’t make you a majority.

You can see how many good players there are at events like the Marionette. None of those fights on the platforms should have been particularly hard, but they were failed often enough for me to say with some certainty that the bulk of the population doesn’t need challenging end game content.

A small percentage of the playerbase needs that.

Sorry, but Marionette is not challenging end-game content. It’s rushed mid-level “/fallasleephittingonebutton” content. Many players I have spoken to about Marionette said that they were watching tv while afk-autoattacking things.
I did Marionette once, wondered at the zerg, left the area and never came back. Zerg content is by definition easy and not challenging, at least in the way zergs work in GW2.

One thing I very much liked was the Queen’s Gauntlet. That was worthy of end-game (but got deleted sadly). It was hard enough to be challenging (I died numbrous times), yet not that hard that you ragequitted it.

What you say is fair, not everyone has 8 level 80s, but if I watch at my current guild, everyone there has 4-10 level 80s. We’re a WvW-guild, I’ll owe you that, but it still means a huge percentage has completed the actual content once or more.

Your analysis also says to me: if you completed all the content, there’s no reason to stay! So everyone who completed all content should just go for another game?
That really is dangerous for a game, because it means everyone will move on at a certain point and the game will never have a stable playerbase.

Obviously you didn’t do the marionette, and comments like this make you lose credibility.

I’m not talking about the zerg of people defending the lanes. I’m talking about when people ran through the gate and ended up with small groups on individual platforms that, for the most part, couldn’t help each other. Sometimes you only had two guys on a platform. That’s the real challenge of the encounter and can’t be defined as a zerg by any definition.

More to the point, that it wasn’t challenging end game content proves my point. If it were challenging end game content and people failed it consistently, my point might not be valid. My point is that it wasn’t particularly challenging yet it was failed over and over again by tons of people.

That’s why you don’t need c hallenging end game content in a themepark MMO. Because so many people can’t even handle the marginally difficult stuff.

Nage.1520:

More to the point, that it wasn’t challenging end game content proves my point. If it were challenging end game content and people failed it consistently, my point might not be valid. My point is that it wasn’t particularly challenging yet it was failed over and over again by tons of people.

If people fail it over and over, then apparently it IS challenging.

Some of the Wardens hit like a truck, even if you’re packing full toughness gear. I’m not surprised that Warden 3 for example, tended to wipe lots of groups. I would call that challenging enough.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Nage.1520:

More to the point, that it wasn’t challenging end game content proves my point. If it were challenging end game content and people failed it consistently, my point might not be valid. My point is that it wasn’t particularly challenging yet it was failed over and over again by tons of people.

If people fail it over and over, then apparently it IS challenging.

Some of the Wardens hit like a truck, even if you’re packing full toughness gear. I’m not surprised that Warden 3 for example, tended to wipe lots of groups. I would call that challenging enough.

It’s not challenging if you took any time at all to look at it. Warden 3 was basically, avoid the mines. That was half the battle. It was more than half the battle. And Warden 2 was dead easy if you understood what you had to do but people didn’t, even though they were told repeatedly in map chat what to do.

Kite the boss onto his mines so he can be stunned and attacked. Any five people in my guild could have done any warden at any time. The fact that people couldn’t do this showed a lack of understanding of the game’s mechanics. That doesn’t make it challenging content.

I’m not saying it was dead easy. I’m saying that a lot of people simply didn’t care to find out what they had to do.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

KarlaGrey.5903:

Vanquishing is something I did when I felt like dabbing in pve with a friend or two, but why grind the title, if it’s no fun?

I didn’t grind the title. I was going to try for the completion and so I could get my Hall of Monuments points up. But it was either boring or really difficult for some places so I just gave up on it.

Well, you were grinding for useless HoM points then…which is the same as grinding for AP points on GW2. I had around 20 points by default, and I was strictly a pvp player who’d occasionally dabble in pve. However having or not having full HoM did not grant you more numbers in combat, which is why I am fine with the system – it is there at your disposal, but it is not a necessity because it only adds vanity items/titles.

Because, and once more try to follow me on this, it is optional. The game is balanced, mostly, towards Exotic-level stats and Ascended being higher means it’s over the point of balance. So really, all you need to be on the ball for PvE is Exotic. PvP? Doesn’t matter, everyone’s leveled out on stats. WvW? Only if they make an Ascended Arrow Cart.

It would be optional, if the gear would be levelled out on stats in WvW too, which is however not the case. While it is still arguable if WvW should even be considered a pvp zone (I, for instance, consider it pve with real players), there will be situations where that difference in gear/food will be the deciding factor between victory and defeat, and that is something you should dispromote instead of embracing it under the excuse of being ‘an option’.

No, I played during those days but my primary focus was at that point Skill Capping and more exploratory. I couldn’t get into Sorrow’s Furnace because . . . survey says . . . not having done it before. So because I hadn’t done it before, nobody would take me to do it. (Similar as to why I got passed over again and again for UW/FOW.)

That is rather odd, I don’t think I had a particular problem finding a group, but I suppose having a few regular pve mates helped in that regard. Moreover, I doubt you were trying a lot, because sooner or later you find people who are willing to educate a nablet, as long as they are ready and willing to learn.
Moreover, if you couldn’t farm for ecto/shards you could always opt for the pvp and trade pvp rewards for pve items, but I do admit those additions were implemented later on in the game.
Instead, you could try farming ettins for sup vigour runes, or do runs for money (I LOVED the first time I was ran to droks, and would eventually do runs on my own just for the fun of achievement).

Problem here is it depends a lot on the players. People are used to zerging and in zerging sure “watching tv while afk-autoattacking things” is a viable strategy. but the core of marionette was not the zergy lains, that was just the magazines in the wiating room. The whole event played out once you went inside the teleporter and found yourself with a small group attacking a champion while marionette herself tried to make you dance a bit here and there. Autoattacking there while watching tv was not a viable strategy! was the fight itself difficult? not much more then a regular champion fight but one where you dont have a zerg backing you which means all out dps which some people are under the false impression is all there is to gw2 combat system is likely to not be enough. If you respect the fight, support each other and buff each other you will end up having a comfortable 1 minute to relay whats going on the other lanes with the fight.

Nage.1520:

It’s not challenging if you took any time at all to look at it. Warden 3 was basically, avoid the mines. That was half the battle. It was more than half the battle.

Unfortunately that wasn’t all. Many people assumed that they only needed to avoid the mines, which is why they died. The Warden himself also needed to be avoided, because you couldn’t tank him, even with the highest amount of armor. But as people tried to get away from the massive damage, they would often move towards the center of the platform, and get hit by the mines that did not have any red circles around them. The Warden also had a nasty habit of charging players with high toughness, or knocking them straight into the mines = insta-kill.

He was definitely a challenging boss. I’ve been going lane 3 none stop, and have seen both victories and plenty of failures. I think I have a pretty good grasp of the difficulty of this encounter by now.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And yet, everyone behaved as if Obsidian was the end-all of armor for the longest time. It’s still the measuring stick for “grindy as heck armor” for me, because of the incredible expense and time consumption when it was released.

Well it was and still is the end-game pve armor, so it obviously shouldn’t be as easily obtainable as the basic armor you just purchased for 1k/piece at the nearest trader. But it is not out of your reach, and once you obtained it you did not need to fear it might turn completely useless one day (like it might very likely happen to ascended gear), because stats aren’t bound to gear on GW, an important feature GW2 unfortunately chose to toss in the trashbin. Once you had it, you could use it for any and all builds you wanted to, often without even having to swap out the runes.
Oh and did I mention the stats on obsidian were identical to that 1k armor?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It did make a difference – the top damage range rarely went lower than 10 and it’s only rumored (as in, I never saw one) to go as low as R8. Good luck getting R13 for the Gothic Sword you saw dropped, with a less-than-maximum damage spread. (This happened more often than I liked.)

No one, and I mean no one in pvp would run less than 14 in their main atrribute………… The real issue were certain +15% damage items without a condition to the additional damage, which were never removed from the game, as well as a few ultra rare armor q7armor16 shields with +30 hp.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

In my opinion and through my experiences? It’s as bad as the gold farming of GW2, or worse. Take that as you will.

Haha, no.
In the GW of today, pvping allows you to also make nice bucks in the process.

Nage.1520:

Obviously you didn’t do the marionette, and comments like this make you lose credibility.

I’m not talking about the zerg of people defending the lanes. I’m talking about when people ran through the gate and ended up with small groups on individual platforms that, for the most part, couldn’t help each other. Sometimes you only had two guys on a platform. That’s the real challenge of the encounter and can’t be defined as a zerg by any definition.

More to the point, that it wasn’t challenging end game content proves my point. If it were challenging end game content and people failed it consistently, my point might not be valid. My point is that it wasn’t particularly challenging yet it was failed over and over again by tons of people.

That’s why you don’t need c hallenging end game content in a themepark MMO. Because so many people can’t even handle the marginally difficult stuff.

Nice try, but no. I stated, I did it once, saw the zergs, wped out. I did not claim to complete the fight till the end. The “tactics” needed for it were minimal in any case, as in any other zerg fight, sure zerg had to split, but that just resulted in multiple slightly smaller zergs since most overflows had 110 people.

Does this game not need end-game because this event was failed multiple times?
No, because this example was not end-game by far. If you compare marionette to the queen’s gauntlet it’s like comparing a quaggan to a charr if you prefer game-terms.

Why was it failed by certain groups? Not because those people lacked personal skill, but because all they did was kill all the mobs and farm. Zerging eliminates personal skill.

Your point is invalid, this does not mean we don’t need challenging end-game, because Marionette was a typical zerg event. Look at battle for Lion’s Arch… it’s all about zerging. Do they manage the event, nope… why? Because they’re too busy farming mobs. The majority doesn’t care if the event is succeeded, and that is why it is failed.

Does that change anything about the lack of end-game? Nope. And here it all comes down to personal preference. I for one want challenging end-game content, and I’m far from alone in that.

Sirendor.1394:

Nage.1520:

Obviously you didn’t do the marionette, and comments like this make you lose credibility.

I’m not talking about the zerg of people defending the lanes. I’m talking about when people ran through the gate and ended up with small groups on individual platforms that, for the most part, couldn’t help each other. Sometimes you only had two guys on a platform. That’s the real challenge of the encounter and can’t be defined as a zerg by any definition.

More to the point, that it wasn’t challenging end game content proves my point. If it were challenging end game content and people failed it consistently, my point might not be valid. My point is that it wasn’t particularly challenging yet it was failed over and over again by tons of people.

That’s why you don’t need c hallenging end game content in a themepark MMO. Because so many people can’t even handle the marginally difficult stuff.

Nice try, but no. I stated, I did it once, saw the zergs, wped out. I did not claim to complete the fight till the end. The “tactics” needed for it were minimal in any case, as in any other zerg fight, sure zerg had to split, but that just resulted in multiple slightly smaller zergs since most overflows had 110 people.

Does this game not need end-game because this event was failed multiple times?
No, because this example was not end-game by far. If you compare marionette to the queen’s gauntlet it’s like comparing a quaggan to a charr if you prefer game-terms.

Why was it failed by certain groups? Not because those people lacked personal skill, but because all they did was kill all the mobs and farm. Zerging eliminates personal skill.

Your point is invalid, this does not mean we don’t need challenging end-game, because Marionette was a typical zerg event. Look at battle for Lion’s Arch… it’s all about zerging. Do they manage the event, nope… why? Because they’re too busy farming mobs. The majority doesn’t care if the event is succeeded, and that is why it is failed.

Does that change anything about the lack of end-game? Nope. And here it all comes down to personal preference. I for one want challenging end-game content, and I’m far from alone in that.

Thats the whole point, if the event was all about zerging then zerging would mean win, the fact that zerging results in failure means zerging is not a viable strategy. on Marionette you couldnt zerg even with a gun to your head because the actual engagements that mattered where split into small groups by design. Yet people still failed (so yeah lack of personal skill was also an issue for sure)

LA if you zerg you’re not going to accomplish anything and the event fails.

What do you want Arenanet to do? go back to the dark ages where if one person tags a mob then thats it no on else gets a reward? Make every event like marionette, some excuse every 2 weeks that splits up players into small groups? Make mobs in the LS even drop zero loot? Cause really thats the only three ways I can think of that will negate zerging but all of them have nasty repercussions.

Support other players? No way they’re competition, let them die so I can do my farming.

Getting teleported in small cages each and every LS event I am sure you’ll agree will get old after a while and destroy immersion

No loot drops off mobs? well I dont think a lot of people will enjoy that at all and somehow doubt its going to get any meaningful result because the big chunky Loot in LA is still at the end yet people still zerg.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Nage.1520:

It’s not challenging if you took any time at all to look at it. Warden 3 was basically, avoid the mines. That was half the battle. It was more than half the battle.

Unfortunately that wasn’t all. Many people assumed that they only needed to avoid the mines, which is why they died. The Warden himself also needed to be avoided, because you couldn’t tank him, even with the highest amount of armor. But as people tried to get away from the massive damage, they would often move towards the center of the platform, and get hit by the mines that did not have any red circles around them. The Warden also had a nasty habit of charging players with high toughness, or knocking them straight into the mines = insta-kill.

He was definitely a challenging boss. I’ve been going lane 3 none stop, and have seen both victories and plenty of failures. I think I have a pretty good grasp of the difficulty of this encounter by now.

That’s why I said half the battle. If you didn’t know to range him and stay away from him, you weren’t paying attention at all. Obviously you were.

The point is, I’m not the best player in the world by far and I almost never went down on Warden 3 when I figured it out, and my platform almost always beat him. There was usually one or two platforms that failed.

However, I’ve also seen platforms 2, 4 and 5 fail and even platform 1 rarely, which wasn’t that hard at all.

Even Anet thought that we’d be better at that Marionette than we were.

But the reason I say it wasn’t difficult content is because there is difficult content in the game….and everything is relative. It was difficult for a percentage of the playerbase. It was by no means as hard as the wurms, or even Lupi.

sorudo.9054:

it takes me weeks to get some gold in GW2.

You do know that dungeon paths give gold upon completion right? I made 75g last week alone…

If it’s taking you weekS to get some gold in this game, then I hate to say it but you aren’t doing it right.

Galen Grey.4709:

Sirendor.1394:

Nage.1520:

Obviously you didn’t do the marionette, and comments like this make you lose credibility.

I’m not talking about the zerg of people defending the lanes. I’m talking about when people ran through the gate and ended up with small groups on individual platforms that, for the most part, couldn’t help each other. Sometimes you only had two guys on a platform. That’s the real challenge of the encounter and can’t be defined as a zerg by any definition.

More to the point, that it wasn’t challenging end game content proves my point. If it were challenging end game content and people failed it consistently, my point might not be valid. My point is that it wasn’t particularly challenging yet it was failed over and over again by tons of people.

That’s why you don’t need c hallenging end game content in a themepark MMO. Because so many people can’t even handle the marginally difficult stuff.

Nice try, but no. I stated, I did it once, saw the zergs, wped out. I did not claim to complete the fight till the end. The “tactics” needed for it were minimal in any case, as in any other zerg fight, sure zerg had to split, but that just resulted in multiple slightly smaller zergs since most overflows had 110 people.

Does this game not need end-game because this event was failed multiple times?
No, because this example was not end-game by far. If you compare marionette to the queen’s gauntlet it’s like comparing a quaggan to a charr if you prefer game-terms.

Why was it failed by certain groups? Not because those people lacked personal skill, but because all they did was kill all the mobs and farm. Zerging eliminates personal skill.

Your point is invalid, this does not mean we don’t need challenging end-game, because Marionette was a typical zerg event. Look at battle for Lion’s Arch… it’s all about zerging. Do they manage the event, nope… why? Because they’re too busy farming mobs. The majority doesn’t care if the event is succeeded, and that is why it is failed.

Does that change anything about the lack of end-game? Nope. And here it all comes down to personal preference. I for one want challenging end-game content, and I’m far from alone in that.

Thats the whole point, if the event was all about zerging then zerging would mean win, the fact that zerging results in failure means zerging is not a viable strategy. on Marionette you couldnt zerg even with a gun to your head because the actual engagements that mattered where split into small groups by design. Yet people still failed (so yeah lack of personal skill was also an issue for sure)

LA if you zerg you’re not going to accomplish anything and the event fails.

What do you want Arenanet to do? go back to the dark ages where if one person tags a mob then thats it no on else gets a reward? Make every event like marionette, some excuse every 2 weeks that splits up players into small groups? Make mobs in the LS even drop zero loot? Cause really thats the only three ways I can think of that will negate zerging but all of them have nasty repercussions.

Support other players? No way they’re competition, let them die so I can do my farming.

Getting teleported in small cages each and every LS event I am sure you’ll agree will get old after a while and destroy immersion

No loot drops off mobs? well I dont think a lot of people will enjoy that at all and somehow doubt its going to get any meaningful result because the big chunky Loot in LA is still at the end yet people still zerg.

I’m of the opinion that no living story will really be end-game. Point is that the current system does not work for those who want a challenge. There’s too much stress on looting mobs, and not enough stress on decent rewards if you actually do succeed. Most of these fights aren’t even fun aswell. Tequatl, Marionette, Wurm are only done for loot during the event, and the end chest if that goal can be achieved in combination with tagging mobs.

I told you what I thought of as end-game: raids, missions, character development… most of it horizontal progression instead of vertical.

Nage.1520:

My point is the most challenging content in this game is ignored by most people.

My point is you’re not the rule, you’re the exception and developers don’t really need to waste development time on the exception. They have to feed the masses, not the small percentage of people who say something is needed because they personally want it.

I ignored most “challenging” content in this game because it wasn’t interesting to me, gave my playstyle no chance to improve upon without refering to ascended gear/ meta builds (altough they advertised this would be possible) or because trying to coordinate people who refuse to be coordinated is only challenging my patience.
It’s not that I don’t want a challenge, I just don’t want this challenge (my opinion).

However, I don’t understand your logic with opinions in general. If I am not the mass and you are not the mass. Who is it then? Who are they catering to? Even in a mass everyone is an individual with personal opinions and preferences. Everyone is rather a “small percantage”, a minority. There is simply nobody who would 100% agree with how the game is designed and even if you were that one, you were a minority and apparently Anet shouldn’t waste development time for you.

That philosophy makes better companies, not better games. Gameplay doesn’t improve for anyone, because everyone just gets a smaller part of dedication. Their income icreases though because their audience grows. I think you’re defending the wrong side, well, your opinion doesn’t matter to that side at least.

@your earlier remark: I don’t find where it says GW2 is supposed to have no “end game”. Could it be that we rely on different definitions of endgame?