Guild Wars 2

Gehenna.3625:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Who knows, we might actually raise good points and fresh ideas.

This is always the hope of course.

I don’t mind that Vayne has his opinions. What I do mind is that he attacks people with other opinions and calls them subjective or anything else while at the same time he does exactly the same.

If he loves GW2, that’s great for him. But he actually derails threads by methods that he accuses other people of. He then incorrectly thinks that I am defending the method itself which is not true in a lot of cases. What I really accuse him of is the pot calling the kettle black, not that he has a different opinion to mine.

There are points I wanted to discuss with him and it’s ok if it gets heated at times. It got out of hand once not too long ago and I apologised for my part in it. He didn’t. My guess is that he thinks he’s right so he the method doesn’t matter. I am not entirey convinced of that strategy.

Now before this thread gets even more derailed, I will commit to it myself. I will again stop responding to him in this thread and just speak of the topic of the thread before it goes out of control.

Anet set up GW2 with a certain idea in mind. Perhaps it’s not the same idea they started out with (see the discussions on the manifesto for that topic), but at some point the foundation was laid and the game came out. This is a year ago now.

Over 3 million people bought the game. That’s not bad I’d say. I don’t think half of them are playing anymore on a regular basis but that’s normal in my view for MMOs.

For the sake of the discussion we can exclude people who left the game and forgot about it. They are lost to the game and so be it.

Then there are people who are perfectly happy in game. My guess is, they don’t come here a whole lot.

And then there’s a big grey area. People who like this game to some degree, but varying degrees. All this for different reasons as well. Some find it too childish, some find the combat system lacking, the story telling poor, endgame missing, the game to be grindy or too easy etc etc etc. Some will say all of the above.

My guess is that the people who post here to complain generally do like something about the game and want it to go in a different direction. And at that point we are all selfish kittens. We want what we want, but why wouldn’t we?

I object to someone calling someone else selfish because they simply want something. Apparently they feel threatened by someone else’s wishes, as if them saying it will make it true and ruin their experience. Which you could call selfish at the same time.

So, I think people (and I don’t exclude myself) have a tendency to attack opinions, whereas the only thing that could be considered constructive would be to actually discuss opinions and try to understand why someone says something rather than just disagreeing with it or throwing mud. That’s why I attack method more than content, because I know opinions are opinions but they get derailed by the way people discuss rather than actually discussing things.

Ironically I find myself talking about method to people rather than content as a consequence but my point there is this: I don’t care which opinion you have. You can think GW2 is the best game ever and Anet are game gods. It’s ok to be a white knight or a fanboi. But I do find it a shame that the methods people use actually detracts from their views.

There are always exceptions, but I see that people get upset at each other more about the way they talk to each other than the actual opinion.

And so the OP here feels the philosophy behind GW2 as a game was ill conceived. Some will agree, some won’t. Bottom line is that it’s always personal.

I can only say that their current philosophy fails for me. It doesn’t keep me entertained enough to play this game as a MMO. I play it as a single player RPG that I pick up once or twice a year. If it hadn’t been named Guild Wars I probably wouldn’t have played it at all.

You speak wise words… I teared up reading this post T^T.Thumbs up!

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

A whole lot is not subjective. It’s just not specific. It’s casual language. It means many or even a bit more than many. It’s not saying most. It’s casual language. When people are talking casually, casual language is allowed. Not every point in these conversations is going to be scientific.

Since the specific meaning of “a whole lot” depends upon the person, or the subject, it is subjective. It seems normal behaviour to speak in non specifics and generalities but that doesn’t stop it from being subjective.

Vayne.8563:

Like your point about snacks and meals…the analogy doesn’t hold. This is where your opinion, which is completely subjective, starts to sound a bit disingenuous.

Thanks for not explaining why it doesn’t hold, but that’s what I’ve come to expect from you. So it’s an unsubstantiated opinion on your behalf.

And don’t turn the tables here. YOU are the one that started calling out people for being subjective. I don’t think it’s wrong to be subjective because that’s what opinions are. I am just saying that you rail on other people for being subjective but you do it yourself. I am not implying that I agree with you that subjectivity is wrong. So you are the disingenuous one here, not me. Just saying.

Vayne.8563:

You have an opinion about what serious content is. But one man’s serious content is another man’s snacks. In real life, meals are important, snacks are not. In video games, you can’t really call one thing snacks and one thing meals, because there’s no nutritional value or what’s good or bad for you here. You’re simply using language as a way to dismiss the opinions of others.

In my mind, dungeons are snacks and open world content is meals.

I do agree with your point about having to do things quickly however. Which is why I’m glad achievement points mean so little.

And that’s my point, it’s all subjective. It’s my opinion and I have reasons for that opinion. Just because you have a different view doesn’t make me wrong or disingenuous. I thought it was clear it was my opinion, my view, not a general truth. That’s your own interpretation.

I see content that comes and goes as snacks, because of the duration and the fact that it doesn’t satisfy me and because it’s just a little bit at a time you need more of it more often. You would agree that the LS stuff has a higher frequency than expansions and are smaller than expansions. That’s why I see an expansion as a full meal: I can eat at my pace and feel satisfied for a while. I don’t need a new meal for a while then. It’s like ordering from the Chinese restaurant. You get a lot of variation, there’s always too much so you always have lots left over for the next day. So the analogy stands. I even gave an explanation for it.

You have a different frame of reference, but you can’t reasonably deny that from my frame of reference this analogy does make sense.

Since you refuse to listen to me, and since you’ve been calling out my posts for weeks now, it’s time to end this silliness. If you’d have bothered actually reading what I wrote it might have been different. As it is, you pretty much do all the same stuff you accuse me of. Tata.

Galtrix.7369:

I don’t know about you guys, but this doesn’t feel like an RPG when other people can become just as powerful as you within a few minutes of creating a character when you’ve put in hours upon hours of intense work to get the rewards you desire.

I think that’s your problem right there. You are too concerned about being powerful and having something to show for all of your time in the game. Also, you sure do like exaggerating things to make a point (very unappealing trait here and in the real world, you should work on that). Finding a precursor at level 11 does not make someone more powerful than you. More wealthy yes, but you don’t need to be wealthy in this game to be powerful. Stats are capped and are easy to obtain. Everyone can be at the same power level within 30 days. That’s the idea here. If you thought this game was going to make you more powerful the longer you play (i.e. gear treadmill) then you really didn’t know what you were signing up for.

You bring up WoW, but honestly, do you think you have something to show for the time you spent there? Because I can tell you that you don’t, and no one cares about your WoW character any more than your GW2 character. Play the game because you enjoy playing it, or quit. It’s so terribly simple. Don’t force yourself to play it, complain about it, keep playing it, complain about it, threaten to play a different game, complain some more, play the game still, keep complaining, play some more. I mean seriously!

Gehenna.3625:

I can only say that their current philosophy fails for me. It doesn’t keep me entertained enough to play this game as a MMO. I play it as a single player RPG that I pick up once or twice a year. If it hadn’t been named Guild Wars I probably wouldn’t have played it at all.

Funny enough, this is somewhat how I played/approached Guild Wars 1 up until I got a great alliance which kept me interested and entertained. Poke myself in now and then like I would with a single player RPG. Occasionally put myself into the PvP, remember I was crap at it, and go back to trying to explore or knock out missions.

. . . and, yes, fully admitting it here. If this hadn’t been made by ArenaNet I probably wouldn’t have looked twice at this game. Guild Wars branding beside the point, I liked what GW1 was enough to give them a shot on their second game (whatever it would turn out to be). I’ll probably give their third game one too (if they make one).

Anymore, I buy games based on my reaction to some cursory research. It’s less for “this looks awesome” and more for “okay, who made this . . . huh, I know that company”. Of course, if it’s an indie game then it’s “let’s pop up part one of a LP and watch to see if I’ll like it”.

Of course, all this reminds me of is how much I miss getting a Tabletop group together :P At least they complained less about grind and more about loot.

Interesting thread, but who can deny that GW2 is the perfect MMO? :/ change your expectations!

Superfast.5901:

Interesting thread, but who can deny that GW2 is the perfect MMO? :/ change your expectations!

I can and I do. It’s not perfect. Is this some simplistic troll attempt or do you seriously think any game is perfect? It’s not about perfection, it’s about being exciting and it pulling you back in, even though there are flaws. People have very different opinions about that as you can see.

Gehenna.3625:

Superfast.5901:

Interesting thread, but who can deny that GW2 is the perfect MMO? :/ change your expectations!

I can and I do. It’s not perfect. Is this some simplistic troll attempt or do you seriously think any game is perfect? It’s not about perfection, it’s about being exciting and it pulling you back in, even though there are flaws. People have very different opinions about that as you can see.

I agree. I am perhaps the world’s biggest GW2 fan but I readily admit it is not perfect. In fact, there are things I might change about it. But despite the fact that I do not find it perfect, I do like the game and enjoy playing. And yes, this is just my opinion and other people will have other opinions…all just as valid as mine.

Insignya.8625:

I’d call this game broken. Not because it doesn’t work or because it’s not a fun $60 experience, but because it’s literally head-ramming its design philosophies out the window. Everything that was supposed to be unique about this game is gone. Why should people who don’t like MMOs stay here when, say, Everquest Next releases? You have every single bulletpoint covered – number chasing (achievements), crucial daily events, time-gated content, zero incentive to progress, shallow PvP. So? GW2 is living from its former glory of GOTY 2012, back when it was actually a really good experience.

Best official forum post ever.

Hmmm :/ I still don’t get why people feel this way

jwaz.1908:

(TL:DR provided below)

Before I start my rant, I would like to ask a simple question; Does GW2 feel like more of a chore, than actually being fun?

Not to me, no.

TooBz.3065:

People hate it when I say this, but remember the game is suppose to be fun. If it’s not fun don’t do it. The only way you can get ANet to stop producing stuff like this is if people stop participating.

That right there is what I’ve been saying all along as well. ANet will make the game that the people want, and if the people want to play Farmville Wars 2 then that’s the game they will get.

If you don’t want that kind of stuff, stop doing that kind of stuff.

The problem isn’t the developers, it’s the players.

-PM

Professor Marvel.7584:

That right there is what I’ve been saying all along as well. ANet will make the game that the people want, and if the people want to play Farmville Wars 2 then that’s the game they will get.

If you don’t want that kind of stuff, stop doing that kind of stuff.

The problem isn’t the developers, it’s the players.

-PM

I think the biggest problem started when they made GW2 for a different type of player than GW1 was. You kinda get that when two games share the same name.

Also the marketing of MMO makes any MMO sound like it appeals to everyone. It’s sadly common practice. It generates big box sales at the start and a mass exodus within a couple of months. GW2 is no exception there either. Marketing is simply the ability to make people believe something without actually saying it. That way everybody thinks the game appeals to them and feels lied to when they don’t actually like it.

Anet didn’t invent that type of marketing, but they also didn’t shy away from it. Who does really?

Gehenna.3625:

Professor Marvel.7584:

That right there is what I’ve been saying all along as well. ANet will make the game that the people want, and if the people want to play Farmville Wars 2 then that’s the game they will get.

If you don’t want that kind of stuff, stop doing that kind of stuff.

The problem isn’t the developers, it’s the players.

-PM

I think the biggest problem started when they made GW2 for a different type of player than GW1 was. You kinda get that when two games share the same name.

Also the marketing of MMO makes any MMO sound like it appeals to everyone. It’s sadly common practice. It generates big box sales at the start and a mass exodus within a couple of months. GW2 is no exception there either. Marketing is simply the ability to make people believe something without actually saying it. That way everybody thinks the game appeals to them and feels lied to when they don’t actually like it.

Anet didn’t invent that type of marketing, but they also didn’t shy away from it. Who does really?

Mojang?

Gehenna.3625:

Professor Marvel.7584:

That right there is what I’ve been saying all along as well. ANet will make the game that the people want, and if the people want to play Farmville Wars 2 then that’s the game they will get.

If you don’t want that kind of stuff, stop doing that kind of stuff.

The problem isn’t the developers, it’s the players.

-PM

I think the biggest problem started when they made GW2 for a different type of player than GW1 was. You kinda get that when two games share the same name.

This is a very interesting statement. It implies that everyone who played and enjoyed Guild Wars 1 played and enjoy Guild Wars 1 for the same reasons.

In my experience, a whole lot of people played Guild Wars 1 for the PvP and just the PvP. But also a whole lot of people played Guild Wars 1 as a single player game and never PvPed. And then there are people like me. I played Guild Wars 1, because it was a good game to play within feeling like I was being led around by the nose. I could pretty much do what I want when I wanted. There were a lot of options.

I feel the same sort of way about Guild Wars 2. I don’t feel that way about most MMOs.

That said, there is increasing pressure to play Guild Wars 2 in specific ways, instead of the way you want. That pressure is part of what some fans are responding to. They want to bang around doing whatever they want, instead of grinding out gold or focusing on achievement points.

I still enjoy the game…but not as much as I might have had the game been made for someone who wants an immersive experience.

It’s still the best MMO for me…but it’s not quite as good for me as it was months ago.

Vayne.8563:

Gehenna.3625:

Professor Marvel.7584:

That right there is what I’ve been saying all along as well. ANet will make the game that the people want, and if the people want to play Farmville Wars 2 then that’s the game they will get.

If you don’t want that kind of stuff, stop doing that kind of stuff.

The problem isn’t the developers, it’s the players.

-PM

I think the biggest problem started when they made GW2 for a different type of player than GW1 was. You kinda get that when two games share the same name.

This is a very interesting statement. It implies that everyone who played and enjoyed Guild Wars 1 played and enjoy Guild Wars 1 for the same reasons.

In my experience, a whole lot of people played Guild Wars 1 for the PvP and just the PvP. But also a whole lot of people played Guild Wars 1 as a single player game and never PvPed. And then there are people like me. I played Guild Wars 1, because it was a good game to play within feeling like I was being led around by the nose. I could pretty much do what I want when I wanted. There were a lot of options.

I feel the same sort of way about Guild Wars 2. I don’t feel that way about most MMOs.

That said, there is increasing pressure to play Guild Wars 2 in specific ways, instead of the way you want. That pressure is part of what some fans are responding to. They want to bang around doing whatever they want, instead of grinding out gold or focusing on achievement points.

I still enjoy the game…but not as much as I might have had the game been made for someone who wants an immersive experience.

It’s still the best MMO for me…but it’s not quite as good for me as it was months ago.

Oh no that’s not what I meant with that. See it as an overlap. GW2 is a very different game from GW1 and so there have been alot of complaints from GW1 players that it no longer appeals to them. There are of course also a lot of GW1 players who do like it.

But that big a change of direction automatically means you will lose a significant part of your player base.

It’s like Metallica. You have the old fans who just drew the line at the black album. Undoubtedly they have been very successful since then but it’s a new crowd mostly and a good number of old fans refuse to buy any of their new albums…but not all of course.

GW2 is going in the exact opposite direction of GW1. In every single aspect of the game. Which is incredibly sad for all the GW1 fans.

Actually, I would like to know if there’s any GW1 fan that likes GW2 better as a whole.

Moss.5371:

GW2 is going in the exact opposite direction of GW1. In every single aspect of the game. Which is incredibly sad for all the GW1 fans.

Actually, I would like to know if there’s any GW1 fan that likes GW2 better as a whole.

Hey that’s a very good question actually. I know that there are GW1 players who also like or love GW2 but I don’t remember many of them saying (if at all) that they liked GW2 better.

Of course I do mean GW1 players who played GW1 for a long while, say at least 3 years or so. Not the ones who came into it much later because games do get old after a while.

Moss.5371:

GW2 is going in the exact opposite direction of GW1. In every single aspect of the game. Which is incredibly sad for all the GW1 fans.

Actually, I would like to know if there’s any GW1 fan that likes GW2 better as a whole.

vayne will be quite happy to tell you he does, and possibly write several more paragraphs describing why

milo.6942:

Moss.5371:

GW2 is going in the exact opposite direction of GW1. In every single aspect of the game. Which is incredibly sad for all the GW1 fans.

Actually, I would like to know if there’s any GW1 fan that likes GW2 better as a whole.

vayne will be quite happy to tell you he does, and possibly write several more paragraphs describing why

I am sure he can speak for himself but I don’t actually know if he likes GW2 better than his experience with GW1. I know I’ve picked some fights with him, but he is actually more reasonable than I even thought

I have played GW1, completed every campaign and enjoyed the end-game for a long time. The PvP system in GW1 just was one of the best at that time. The story itself always encouraged you to go on, and it was always nice to see what happened next, ever a surprise and very much like reading an exciting fantasy novel.

I bought GW2 because I enjoyed GW1 so much, because it was for me one of the best MMO’s I had ever played, even though the graphics became outdated and the system slightly. I think I would still buy GW2 if I had to make the decision over, but I wished they listened to their playerbase. So many people make magnificent suggestions, but so few get listened to.

Still, I think GW1 was a better game (for it’s time) than GW2 at this moment.

Of course there’s things I like in GW2. Jumping Puzzles for example. Funny, because in GW1 you couldn’t even space jump and wasn’t a big deal because everything else was awesome.

Sirendor.1394:

I have played GW1, completed every campaign and enjoyed the end-game for a long time. The PvP system in GW1 just was one of the best at that time.

I bought GW2 because I enjoyed GW1 so much, because it was for me one of the best MMO’s I had ever played, even though the graphics became outdated and the system slightly. I think I would still buy GW2 if I had to make the decision over, but I wished they listened to their playerbase. So many people make magnificent suggestions, but so few get listened to.

What I would be interested to know is why you would choose GW2 over GW1. Personally if GW1 got updated graphics and 3D maps so you can jump on stuff I would definitely choose GW1 over GW2 today. Then they could’ve added all those jump puzzles and stuff in GW1 instead. So, what makes GW2 better for you?

Moss.5371:

GW2 is going in the exact opposite direction of GW1. In every single aspect of the game. Which is incredibly sad for all the GW1 fans.

Actually, I would like to know if there’s any GW1 fan that likes GW2 better as a whole.

. . . yeah, but it’s difficult for me to say WHY without getting into topics way far afield. And potentially hypocritical if taken out of context to be flung back at me later so let me just say:

Yes. I like GW2 better at this time than GW1.

Bright.9160:

marnick.4305:

Bright.9160:

Not to mention, many people I play with would qualify in the communities’ eyes as ‘hardcore’ and have jobs, or family or study at university etc. Just like the casuals have jobs, family, or study at university. Both sides spend money on the game, until you have any statistics that ‘casuals’ spend more, your argument holds no water and is pure speculation.

My definition of hardcore is 5+ hours a day, at least 6 days a week. Consistently.
That’s not compatible with having a job and a family.

My definition of casual is max 2 hours a day, 3-4 days a week. Often less. Often takes week long breaks.
Let’s not forget that even that time commitment is pretty hardcore when compared to non-gaming hobbies.

So… You kind of missed a lot of middle ground there…

Because the world is not black vs white. I didn’t think it was necessary to add such a simple fact.

I like GW2 but its doing so many things wrong.

Moss.5371:

GW2 is going in the exact opposite direction of GW1. In every single aspect of the game. Which is incredibly sad for all the GW1 fans.

Actually, I would like to know if there’s any GW1 fan that likes GW2 better as a whole.

1/ I’m not convinced GW2 is entirely in the different direction. In my experience, GW2 is an MMO while GW1 was not. GW2 is exactly what you’d get when trying to make an MMO out of GW1.

2/ I don’t like GW2 or GW1 more than the other per sé. I like both in a different way. I don’t like a good wine more or less than a good scotch. They’re different, both are good.

I’m currently playing GW2 almost exclusively and haven’t booted GW1 in a year. But that’s merely because I have every single achievement in GW1, after 7 years there’s absolutely nothing left to do. I like both games.

Gehenna.3625:

Sirendor.1394:

I have played GW1, completed every campaign and enjoyed the end-game for a long time. The PvP system in GW1 just was one of the best at that time.

I bought GW2 because I enjoyed GW1 so much, because it was for me one of the best MMO’s I had ever played, even though the graphics became outdated and the system slightly. I think I would still buy GW2 if I had to make the decision over, but I wished they listened to their playerbase. So many people make magnificent suggestions, but so few get listened to.

What I would be interested to know is why you would choose GW2 over GW1. Personally if GW1 got updated graphics and 3D maps so you can jump on stuff I would definitely choose GW1 over GW2 today. Then they could’ve added all those jump puzzles and stuff in GW1 instead. So, what makes GW2 better for you?

I agree to this, if GW1 had the same graphics, some better UI etc, I would choose it over GW2. GW1 was unique as a MMO, because it worked through story missions. The whole game was about these missions and you as a hero were the centrum of it all. GW2 lacks this incredibly. The personal story is a meager reflection of GW1’s story, and it is actually only a side element, very stereotype and badly written. On top, in GW1 money was hardly necessary for anything in the game.

PvE: missions could be completed on different difficulty, so you didn’t get forced to get max gear and max gear itself was rather cheap all together.

PvP: you didn’t even need gear or leveling up for that. Also the Kurzick-Luxon conflict in Factions was a very nice addition to the PvP system, still not needing any gearing or whatsoever.

marnick.4305:

1/ I’m not convinced GW2 is entirely in the different direction. In my experience, GW2 is an MMO while GW1 was not. GW2 is exactly what you’d get when trying to make an MMO out of GW1.

Well, it’s always a matter of opinion but here are some thoughts.

GW1 had henchmen and heroes.
GW1 had group play as a main element
GW1 had well organised sPvP with much variety
GW1 elite armour tooke more effort to collect
GW1 had no TP, trading was done in Kamadan mostly, between players
GW1 had trading between players
GW1 had a world that was darker, more in line with the background story
GW1 had character classes that actually made a difference
GW1 didn’t not have WvW
GW1 didn’t have zerg content
GW1 didn’t have jumping puzzles
GW1 didn’t have tiers for gear
GW1 didn’t have crafting
GW1 didn’t have mystic forge RNG

Now, this is not about what’s good or bad but about differences. I think when you look at it, it is significantly different as a game. To me even the things that are similar are done quite differently.

marnick.4305:

GW2 is an MMO while GW1 was not.

Howcome? It’s the other way around in my opinion, see I did plenty of actual group play in GW1 in dungeons and story. In GW2 dungeons, you just take care of yourself.

Moss.5371:

marnick.4305:

GW2 is an MMO while GW1 was not.

Howcome? It’s the other way around in my opinion, see I did plenty of actual group play in GW1 in dungeons and story. In GW2 dungeons, you just take care of yourself.

Generally speaking a persistent world is part of the definition of an MMO, so technically he has a point. However, since most MMOs actually end up ignoring that open world and stick people into instances (dungeons, pvp maps, wvw maps etc.) I think that the persistent world feature is highly overrated and not needed for a Massively Multi Player Online game. Did GW1 have lots of players that could meet online and play together? Yes, so for me it can still be classed with MMOs.

If MMOs generally had persistent worlds that were not empty leveling zones a few months after release, I could see that as a more important distinction.

Gehenna.3625:

marnick.4305:

1/ I’m not convinced GW2 is entirely in the different direction. In my experience, GW2 is an MMO while GW1 was not. GW2 is exactly what you’d get when trying to make an MMO out of GW1.

Well, it’s always a matter of opinion but here are some thoughts.

GW1 had henchmen and heroes.
GW1 had group play as a main element
GW1 had well organised sPvP with much variety
GW1 elite armour tooke more effort to collect
GW1 had no TP, trading was done in Kamadan mostly, between players
GW1 had trading between players
GW1 had a world that was darker, more in line with the background story
GW1 had character classes that actually made a difference
GW1 didn’t not have WvW
GW1 didn’t have zerg content
GW1 didn’t have jumping puzzles
GW1 didn’t have tiers for gear
GW1 didn’t have crafting
GW1 didn’t have mystic forge RNG

Now, this is not about what’s good or bad but about differences. I think when you look at it, it is significantly different as a game. To me even the things that are similar are done quite differently.

if i could get guild wars 1 with updated graphics (not exactly the same as gw2, it is a different style and is too flashy), jumping, jumping puzzles, and a new world with new storyline missions and just new content with gw1 mechanics as the base, I could have been happy for another 7 years.

Moss.5371:

marnick.4305:

GW2 is an MMO while GW1 was not.

Howcome? It’s the other way around in my opinion, see I did plenty of actual group play in GW1 in dungeons and story. In GW2 dungeons, you just take care of yourself.

Dungeons have nothing to do with being an MMO or not. The open, persistent world is the key defining characteristic.

Gehenna.3625:

marnick.4305:

1/ I’m not convinced GW2 is entirely in the different direction. In my experience, GW2 is an MMO while GW1 was not. GW2 is exactly what you’d get when trying to make an MMO out of GW1.

Well, it’s always a matter of opinion but here are some thoughts.

GW1 had henchmen and heroes.
GW1 had group play as a main element
GW1 had well organised sPvP with much variety
GW1 elite armour tooke more effort to collect
GW1 had no TP, trading was done in Kamadan mostly, between players
GW1 had trading between players
GW1 had a world that was darker, more in line with the background story
GW1 had character classes that actually made a difference
GW1 didn’t not have WvW
GW1 didn’t have zerg content
GW1 didn’t have jumping puzzles
GW1 didn’t have tiers for gear
GW1 didn’t have crafting
GW1 didn’t have mystic forge RNG

Now, this is not about what’s good or bad but about differences. I think when you look at it, it is significantly different as a game. To me even the things that are similar are done quite differently.

I could comment on every single one of them, and why this list makes GW2 an MMO while GW2 isn’t. Don’t feel like it so let’s just take three.

Heroes and henchmen go against the idea of an MMO. Removing those is almost necessary to build a proper MMO.

Next up are a decent player centred economy. For that, player crafting and a decent automated trading system are necessary. Honestly, I’m happy I don’t have to deal with Kamadan anymore. Doesn’t mean the current system can’t improve, but I’m more happy with the GW2 economy than the GW1 economy overall.

Third, I don’t think GW2 has less “group” content than GW1, but it’s done in a different way. GW1 is like going to play indoor basket with your team while GW2 is more like street basket where random people come and go all the time. One doesn’t need to invite someone to a party to have a group. I like that. Gives the game a more natural feel.

I still feel GW1 and GW2 have a certain common ground, that’s more described as underlying respect for the player than any particular mechanics. They’re different games, and should be like that. No one was waiting for a GW1.5.

Lol, if they put the GW2 combat system and graphics in GW1, keep the skill system, the PvP, the Elite dungeons etc, I would never stop playing I think…

marnick.4305:

Heroes and henchmen go against the idea of an MMO. Removing those is almost necessary to build a proper MMO.

I don’t agree. I have a companion in SWTOR too and that’s just fine. They can fill holes in instanced content when there are not enough players. There are complaints about DE’s that are undoable or take waay to long because leveling zones are empty. Having a couple of companions could solve that issue. That’s why I say that persistent worlds are generally overrated. In the end you spend most of your time in instances anyway.

marnick.4305:

Next up are a decent player centred economy. For that, player crafting and a decent automated trading system are necessary. Honestly, I’m happy I don’t have to deal with Kamadan anymore. Doesn’t mean the current system can’t improve, but I’m more happy with the GW2 economy than the GW1 economy overall.

I miss being able to trade person to person in GW2. Crafting is not necessary but it is something some players enjoy, so it could’ve been an addition for GW1 at some point. What you are not explaining is why you think the economy is better. You may not’ve liked the method, but the guru website had a whole section dedicated to pricing. If you don’t like the concept of going to an external website for that, I wonder how you like that LFG is done mostly on an external website in GW2.

marnick.4305:

Third, I don’t think GW2 has less “group” content than GW1, but it’s done in a different way. GW1 is like going to play indoor basket with your team while GW2 is more like street basket where random people come and go all the time. One doesn’t need to invite someone to a party to have a group. I like that. Gives the game a more natural feel.

GW1 only had group content. That’s all there was. This is why there were henchmen to begin with. Group content for me is not zerging. I define group content as content where you are in a group (like in dungeons). GW2 has a limited number of dungeons as group content. That’s it. Random people coming and going in zerg is not group content in what is generally considered group content in MMOs. Group content also involves group composition. In GW2 that’s not really existant except in Fractals. [/quote]

marnick.4305:

I still feel GW1 and GW2 have a certain common ground, that’s more described as underlying respect for the player than any particular mechanics. They’re different games, and should be like that.

You may feel that way but others do not. I don’t see that common ground simply because I have to accept that when I played GW1 I enjoyed it and when I play GW2 I don’t.

What you describe as common ground are differences to me. If you make concept general enough then everythings the same, but it’s the specifics that make the difference.

marnick.4305:

I wasn’t waiting for a GW1.5.

Fixed that for you. You don’t know if no one was waiting for that, but you are wrong. There have been loads of threads about people who did want GW2 to be more like GW1….oddly they were expecting that because it’s called Guild Wars again.

I submit to you that GW2 is much more different from GW1 than for example Mass Effect 2 was from Mass Effect 1.

For a sequel GW2 isn’t really a sequel. The name belies the reality of the game as far as I’m concerned. That doesn’t mean that it’s a bad game for everyone, but it was a disappointment for a fair number of people I’ve seen here in the forums.

TL:DR To summarize, the piling up ‘daily’ and time-gated content is just a shallow attempt to keep people coming back, and to restrict those that play many hours a day, causing GW2 to feel like a chore.

It’s what happens when players consume content faster than it takes to build it.

The sandbox “player created” content is the holy grail of MMO’s but; we have yet to see a company accomplish this and keep millions of people playing. Gear treadmills and time-gated content are cheaper to produce and known to be effective.

Calae.1738:

TL:DR To summarize, the piling up ‘daily’ and time-gated content is just a shallow attempt to keep people coming back, and to restrict those that play many hours a day, causing GW2 to feel like a chore.

It’s what happens when players consume content faster than it takes to build it.

The sandbox “player created” content is the holy grail of MMO’s but; we have yet to see a company accomplish this and keep millions of people playing. Gear treadmills and time-gated content are cheaper to produce and known to be effective.

It’s already happened, from what I hear EvE Online is pretty much all player-driven and all the companies do is make sure it’s all legit and tune the servers now and then. Not being attracted to a game where I might be blown up just for the lulz, I can’t attest to this personally so . . .

The downside to solely “player created/driven content” is that it’s in the hands of the players. Like it or not, they are running it. And if you get enough trollish/jerkish behavior rolling it can become a nightmare for someone who just wants to drop in and kill time with something enjoyable.

I am really not sure I follow :/