I just found out : /
You are seriously accusing me of not seeing something they didn’t say? Frankly, I’m nonplussed on that one—I don’t know how to respond. I was dealing simply with the facts that we have on the table. We know what vertical progression is and we know that Anet said that there would be vertical progression moving forward.
I really enjoyed the your request to leave game design challenges to game designers instead of shouting about vertical progression. Drat I thought I left the capslock off. My mistake I guess. Look, what we are dealing with is truly simple and straightforward. We know what vertical progression is by its definition. We also know that vertical progression is now a part of GW2. There are people that are unhappy about it as they bought GW2 believing that the forced grind stopped with level 80 exotics.
There is no point where exotics won’t do the job, and by the time there is, ascended gear will probably be easy enough to acquire through not grinding the same instance. That’s the point of the low power curve.
There’s the facts on the table.
I’ve read “forced,” “obligated,” “required,” “mandatory,” and a few other words echoing that sentiment about ascended gear.
The fact is, unless you are a gear grinder who must have the best gear available at any given time, ascended gear in it’s current incarnation is irrelevant.
It’s 1% more effective than my current set of gear.
What it is going to be in the future remains to be seen, but if the current incarnation is anything to go by, ascended gear’s existence won’t impede on my ability to see the content ArenaNet has made in any part of the game. Period.
That basically destroys any “mandatory grind” right there.
If you think you’re being “forced” to play the game to get gear that’s irrelevant to your effectiveness outside of a single small part of the game, you should re-evaluate why you’re playing in the first place.
“There is no point where exotics won’t do the job, and by the time there is…” This quote alone is priceless and certainly worth my time invested on this thread. Please reread what you wrote and see if you can get it.
Remember what vertical progression is. Remember the integer series:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5,…n
If you haven’t studied mathematics the ‘n’ represents that the series continues. The difference between 1 and 2 may be negligible if the power curve is low as they said it would be. You can probably ignore it without too much loss of ability to play. A level 1 player will be at a disadvantage relative to a level 2 player but it won’t make much of a difference. But, because we are dealing with upward progression in power level there will be a point where the difference is significant. And, there inevitably will be a point at which you can no longer play the game at your current power level. This is not my idea, it’s the definition of vertical progression. That it is a mandatory grind is demonstrated by the definition of vertical progression. Read it then show me where the definition of vertical progression destroys ‘my’ idea of a mandatory grind. It rather establishes it.
You refer to one small part of the game being affected, but Anet has said that the stats introduced with ascended gear will apply to all parts of the game over time. I don’t need to reevaluate why I’m playing the game. I know why I chose GW2 and I know why I’m disappointed with the change of direction introduced on 11/15.
Ascended Average: (1-0.5)1209 + 0.52.07*1209 = 1855.8 average damage
Exotic Average: (1-0.49)1209 + 0.492.02*1209 = 1813.3 average damageWhich means that you’re actually dealing 2.3% more damage on average.
oh dear lord! please stop the production of this game because new gear gives players a 2.3% advantage over another player who choose not to grind. what a incredibly overpowered gearset that needs to be removed this instant! how DARE anet give those progression players a 2.3% increase for MONTHS of grinding
/sarcasm(you know, for those that just dont get it)
you all need to quit kitten and moaning about a 2.3% increase, it’s incredibly pathetic
(edited by FourTwenty.4268)
Ascended Average: (1-0.5)1209 + 0.52.07*1209 = 1855.8 average damage
Exotic Average: (1-0.49)1209 + 0.492.02*1209 = 1813.3 average damageWhich means that you’re actually dealing 2.3% more damage on average.
oh dear lord! please stop the production of this game because new gear gives players a 2.3% advantage over another player who choose not to grind. what a incredibly overpowered gearset that needs to be removed this instant! how DARE anet give those progression players a 2.3% increase for MONTHS of grinding
/sarcasm(you know, for those that just dont get it)
you all need to quit kitten and moaning about a 2.3% increase, it’s incredibly pathetic
Correction: it’s a 2.3% increase with only three pieces of gear. And those pieces of gear have some of the smallest stat boosts out of any equipment category.
The gulf will be MUCH wider once they introduce accessories, armor, and weapons.
For example, let’s just pretend that the increase in stats between an Ascended item and an Exotic is “only” 10% (it’s actually larger than that in many cases, especially Critical Damage, but we’ll just pretend it’s not).
So, given the established stats for an Exotic set of armor, we could reasonably expect that our armor set will boost us to 347 Power, 246 Precision, and 18% Critical Damage. And of course, we’ll be hitting harder with our new Ascended weapon, dealing 1095-1210 damage with 197 Power, 141 Precision, and 10% Critical Damage. And we’ll have some shiny new Ascended earrings and amulets, so we’ll be sitting at a cool 222 Power, 158 Precision, and 12% Critical Damage.
Meaning we’re now doing:
1152.5 * (916+197+300+347+222+262) / (916+968) = 1373 damage per strike
[4+((916+300+141+246+158+171)-916)/21] = 52% chance to deal (150+18+10+12+21) = 221% damage.
New Ascended Average: 1373*(1-0.52) + 1373*0.52*2.21 = 2236.9 average damage
Oh hey, look at that, we’re dealing 23% more damage than the Exotic equipped guy. But that’s still such a small number, surely it won’t affect WvW that much! Nevermind, of course, that these ballpark estimates are quite likely far below the actual figures, as Ascended rings and back items are far stronger than just +10% to Exotics in many cases. This clearly won’t impact the metagame, no sir.
And then of course the gulf will continue to grow after they raise the level cap and introduce the next tier of items after this one, because some people just hit that Ascended wall so early, ya know? Gotta make sure they still have stuff to do!
And viola, you’re already on the treadmill and you don’t even realize it.
GW1 completely avoided this with a hard level cap and a set power level for all items. GW2 tried to reinvent the wheel when all it had to do was look at its brother’s notes on the subject. There is no reason for Ascended gear to even exist, and the fact that it’s only just the start is plenty of reason to worry.
Remember when our developers talked about “strengthening the core game”?
How’d that work out for us so far?
Now let’s try some ideas that will really work.
How’d that work out for us so far?
Now let’s try some ideas that will really work.
Ascended Average: (1-0.5)1209 + 0.52.07*1209 = 1855.8 average damage
Exotic Average: (1-0.49)1209 + 0.492.02*1209 = 1813.3 average damageWhich means that you’re actually dealing 2.3% more damage on average.
oh dear lord! please stop the production of this game because new gear gives players a 2.3% advantage over another player who choose not to grind. what a incredibly overpowered gearset that needs to be removed this instant! how DARE anet give those progression players a 2.3% increase for MONTHS of grinding
/sarcasm(you know, for those that just dont get it)
you all need to quit kitten and moaning about a 2.3% increase, it’s incredibly pathetic
Correction: it’s a 2.3% increase with only three pieces of gear. And those pieces of gear have some of the smallest stat boosts out of any equipment category.
The gulf will be MUCH wider once they introduce accessories, armor, and weapons.
For example, let’s just pretend that the increase in stats between an Ascended item and an Exotic is “only” 10% (it’s actually larger than that in many cases, especially Critical Damage, but we’ll just pretend it’s not).
So, given the established stats for an Exotic set of armor, we could reasonably expect that our armor set will boost us to 347 Power, 246 Precision, and 18% Critical Damage. And of course, we’ll be hitting harder with our new Ascended weapon, dealing 1095-1210 damage with 197 Power, 141 Precision, and 10% Critical Damage. And we’ll have some shiny new Ascended earrings and amulets, so we’ll be sitting at a cool 222 Power, 158 Precision, and 12% Critical Damage.
Meaning we’re now doing:
1152.5 * (916+197+300+347+222+262) / (916+968) = 1373 damage per strike
[4+((916+300+141+246+158+171)-916)/21] = 52% chance to deal (150+18+10+12+21) = 221% damage.New Ascended Average: 1373*(1-0.52) + 1373*0.52*2.21 = 2236.9 average damage
Oh hey, look at that, we’re dealing 23% more damage than the Exotic equipped guy. But that’s still such a small number, surely it won’t affect WvW that much! Nevermind, of course, that these ballpark estimates are quite likely far below the actual figures, as Ascended rings and back items are far stronger than just +10% to Exotics in many cases. This clearly won’t impact the metagame, no sir.
And then of course the gulf will continue to grow after they raise the level cap and introduce the next tier of items after this one, because some people just hit that Ascended wall so early, ya know? Gotta make sure they still have stuff to do!
And viola, you’re already on the treadmill and you don’t even realize it.
GW1 completely avoided this with a hard level cap and a set power level for all items. GW2 tried to reinvent the wheel when all it had to do was look at its brother’s notes on the subject. There is no reason for Ascended gear to even exist, and the fact that it’s only just the start is plenty of reason to worry.
I really appreciate your posts. Thanks for going to the trouble of doing the math. I tend to see the problem clearly in the abstract but it is always helpful to have a concrete demonstration.
So people constantly need to get new gear to satisfy their needs? Why can’t someone just buy one Ferrari, and take good care of it : /
Because that isn’t how WoW did things, therefor any game that lacks it gets accused of not being an MMO.
about Ascended weapons. Got my inquest longbow, inquest sword, inquest dagger, inquest harpoon, and inquest spear gun. Put superior sigil of fire, and energy runes on them. Now Ascended weapons have come to my attention, and that I will soon no longer have max damage weapons. What was the point of me working so hard getting all this gear?
Of course, once you finish grinding out your new ascended gear you’ll get the pleasure of a level cap increase in the expansion, which means its ALL worthless and you can start your grind from scratch. God, doesn’t that just sound like so much fun?!
I refer to this game as GW2 only, because as far as I’m concerned Guild Wars 2 hasn’t released yet. But I pray that one day Guild Wars 1 finally gets a successor, instead of Arenanets attempt to enter into the WoW market.
(edited by Tolmos.8395)
Why is level 80 better then 79? Cus +1. Who wants to be the best you can ever be one month after the game is out, and then just soak there for the next five years. Honestly, haven’t you folks played RPG’s? Didn’t it suck when you had nothing left to kill or get in FF7?
Why is level 80 better then 79? Cus +1. Who wants to be the best you can ever be one month after the game is out, and then just soak there for the next five years. Honestly, haven’t you folks played RPG’s? Didn’t it suck when you had nothing left to kill or get in FF7?
Most of us did play Guild Wars 1, which did exactly as you described. And ya know what? We loved it.
Not every game has to be WoW to be enjoyable.
what the hell guys?
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractal_weapons
read the description of the fractal weapons.. no wait, i’ll copy+paste it for ya:
Fractal weapons are Exotic weapons that drop in the higher levels (20+) of the Fractals of the Mists. These weapons are account bound when received out of the Daily Reward Chest. Fractal weapons do not have attributes nor weapon sigils on them. It is intended that players use Fine Transmutation Stones to combine the look of a Fractal weapon with the stats of another weapon.
check out all you need to know about fract weapons.
Its sad knowing something small like this can bother so many of us. Its even more sad knowing i had 7 good friends and 2 cousins playing this game. And now Im the only one, playing alone because people are not use to these weird mechanics and goals anet is trying to inspire players. As a gw1 fan my fav part was to get my max gear and then finish all the missions and in the end farm for the 15k armor.
what the hell guys?
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractal_weaponsread the description of the fractal weapons.. no wait, i’ll copy+paste it for ya:
Fractal weapons are Exotic weapons that drop in the higher levels (20+) of the Fractals of the Mists. These weapons are account bound when received out of the Daily Reward Chest. Fractal weapons do not have attributes nor weapon sigils on them. It is intended that players use Fine Transmutation Stones to combine the look of a Fractal weapon with the stats of another weapon.
check out all you need to know about fract weapons.
" It is intended that players use Fine Transmutation Stones…"
Which can only come from the cash shop. Anyone else see where they’re going with this?
Good thing those are some seriously ugly skins.
Why is level 80 better then 79? Cus +1. Who wants to be the best you can ever be one month after the game is out, and then just soak there for the next five years. Honestly, haven’t you folks played RPG’s? Didn’t it suck when you had nothing left to kill or get in FF7?
Most of us did play Guild Wars 1, which did exactly as you described. And ya know what? We loved it.
Not every game has to be WoW to be enjoyable.
I played a game where I shot fireballs from my bare hands, and did flaming Dragon Punches. It was called Street Fighter 2. It was very enjoyable, even though it wasn’t Guild Wars, or Guild Wars 2, or WoW.
I’ve never even played WoW. Read my post again, and actually think about what I said.
“There is no point where exotics won’t do the job, and by the time there is…” This quote alone is priceless and certainly worth my time invested on this thread. Please reread what you wrote and see if you can get it.
Remember what vertical progression is. Remember the integer series:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5,…n
If you haven’t studied mathematics the ‘n’ represents that the series continues. The difference between 1 and 2 may be negligible if the power curve is low as they said it would be. You can probably ignore it without too much loss of ability to play. A level 1 player will be at a disadvantage relative to a level 2 player but it won’t make much of a difference. But, because we are dealing with upward progression in power level there will be a point where the difference is significant. And, there inevitably will be a point at which you can no longer play the game at your current power level. This is not my idea, it’s the definition of vertical progression. That it is a mandatory grind is demonstrated by the definition of vertical progression. Read it then show me where the definition of vertical progression destroys ‘my’ idea of a mandatory grind. It rather establishes it.
You refer to one small part of the game being affected, but Anet has said that the stats introduced with ascended gear will apply to all parts of the game over time. I don’t need to reevaluate why I’m playing the game. I know why I chose GW2 and I know why I’m disappointed with the change of direction introduced on 11/15.
Introduced on 11/15?
Sorry but lets use your own argument to demonstrate how vertical progression was already designed within the game without a gear treadmill.
You ready?
Were you running explorables in whites? The number 1 on your infinite chain of progression.
Let that sink for a minute.
The issue here as i see it is not vertical progression because lests face it you have that from lvl 1 – 80 anyway and thus any resulting level cap would do the same. Its more to do with the fact that most people just HAVE to have the higest equipment possible, forget the fact that you can function perfectly well without this equipment at lvl 80 cause i want the best.
I do not plan on bothering with a legend wep cause i seriously cannot be bothered and frankly i dont give a rats backside if someone has a little more power than me. Companies thrive on these type of people you know the must haves and most sell this to you. Sure sure you will have detractors that want everything for free and do not like the fact that some can afford the boost and they cant or do not wish to.
How about for once people start to think a little differently and see that if with the exotic gear being a perfectly capable set to complete any of the content provided is all they will need. So kitten well what if someone puts a couple of numbers up from you when they hit yawn. Who really cares that they may finish a fight a couple of seconds before you in the whole scheme of things does it really matter?.
If it matters toy ou so much in the games current state and lvl cap then your a must have individual and will never be satified if someone else may have something better than you. I strongly suggest you play the game and enjoy it and so many of you will have less heart attacks at the fact someone got slightly better gear
“There is no point where exotics won’t do the job, and by the time there is…” This quote alone is priceless and certainly worth my time invested on this thread. Please reread what you wrote and see if you can get it.
Remember what vertical progression is. Remember the integer series:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5,…n
If you haven’t studied mathematics the ‘n’ represents that the series continues. The difference between 1 and 2 may be negligible if the power curve is low as they said it would be. You can probably ignore it without too much loss of ability to play. A level 1 player will be at a disadvantage relative to a level 2 player but it won’t make much of a difference. But, because we are dealing with upward progression in power level there will be a point where the difference is significant. And, there inevitably will be a point at which you can no longer play the game at your current power level. This is not my idea, it’s the definition of vertical progression. That it is a mandatory grind is demonstrated by the definition of vertical progression. Read it then show me where the definition of vertical progression destroys ‘my’ idea of a mandatory grind. It rather establishes it.
You refer to one small part of the game being affected, but Anet has said that the stats introduced with ascended gear will apply to all parts of the game over time. I don’t need to reevaluate why I’m playing the game. I know why I chose GW2 and I know why I’m disappointed with the change of direction introduced on 11/15.
Introduced on 11/15?
Sorry but lets use your own argument to demonstrate how vertical progression was already designed within the game without a gear treadmill.
You ready?
Were you running explorables in whites? The number 1 on your infinite chain of progression.
Let that sink for a minute.
Alice, would you be surprised if you haven’t taught me anything? I’ll even help you here. What about being level 1 and working toward level 2. Was that vertical progression and a forced grind? Of course it was. The key distinction was that it stopped at level 80 exotics just as GW1 stopped at level 20.
The forced grind that exists in GW is actually unnecessary and sets a bad precedent for the game if you are truly about making non-grindy games. My preference would be a tutorial story that got you prepped gameplay, lore, and gear-wise and then launched you into the world and your adventure. There is truly no real need for levels and it itself is a throwback to MMO history. The distinction with GW was that the forced grind stopped at max level in max level gear and I’m fine with that. I’m not fine with vertical progression from max level gear at max level which is the very definition of a gear grind treadmill to infinity.
(edited by Raine.1394)
-snip-
-snip-
See, I don’t blame either of you for making the posts you did. Posts like these aren’t meant to be malicious, they just come from a fundamental misunderstanding of the concept of vertical progression, and why it’s generally considered a bad thing by many players of this game. So I’ll try to break it down for you.
Vertical progression is a system whereby an already established game continues to add new equipment of increasingly higher power levels, either in expansions or patches. The sole goal of such a thing is to provide new content for max level characters to grind for, to give them a reason to keep playing. And that’s a fine goal, but vertical progression is the wrong means by which to do it.
There’s no problems with power differences between a Lvl 1 and a Lvl 80. This is part of the natural progression of any RPG: your character grows and you grow with it. You gain more traits, more skills, and can wear better gear. And again, this is fine. The problem comes in when you hit max level and suddenly you’re introducing new tiers of gear at that level on a regular basis, or when you start raising the level cap just to introduce new tiers of gear (both of which are confirmed to be happening at some point in the future for GW2).
This introduces a very common problem known as “power creep”, which simply means that the game’s “Best-In-Slot” items keep getting made obsolete by newer gear. This is, in effect, “moving the goalposts” for a player in order to keep them playing, what some people call the “treadmill”. It gives players a reason to keep playing, that much is true, but it also gives players less of a reason to play older content, generally because that older content is more poorly designed and far less rewarding in general.
We can already see this in effect in GW2. Remember how the designers wanted to make the entire game playable at any level so you could go anywhere and do anything? Have you noticed that, despite this, a lot of the older content tends not to get as much attention any more? There’s less people in the low level maps, there’s less people running non-Fractals dungeons, there’s less people running the dragons and the temples, and practically no one plays in the Southsun Cove unless they’re specifically built to farm Karka or are going after the rich Ori node. And this is because of the issue described above. What power creep does is not only raise the bar on what the “BiS” items are, it also makes a lot of existing content obsolete. Fractals is perhaps the best example of this: once it came out, the older dungeons looked positively godawful by comparison, and were less rewarding to boot, so less people started playing them. People don’t want to be funneled into one area of GW2, they want to play everywhere, but right now the devs’ steps towards vertical progression and more grinding for top gear are making that a more difficult thing to achieve.
Now the devs are taking some positive steps. They intend to introduce Ascended gear in more locations of the game, and that’s great. That’ll help keep older content useful in the game without having it all go to waste. But there’s still the core problem of power creep itself rendering a lot of the game’s older gear worthless.
(to be continued in my next post)
Remember when our developers talked about “strengthening the core game”?
How’d that work out for us so far?
Now let’s try some ideas that will really work.
How’d that work out for us so far?
Now let’s try some ideas that will really work.
As I already illustrated, a simple ballpark estimate for Ascended gear (presuming it only raises power by 10% per item) suggests that it is likely to be as much as 23% more powerful than existing Exotic gear. That’s a massive leap forward, one that will definitely affect WvW’s metagame. Those with Ascended gear suddenly have a massive damage output advantage over players who previously dominated the game with their skill or tactics. And that’s bound to lead to one of two things happening:
- The now-obsolete-but-skillful player will say “Okay, no problem. I’ll just grind for Ascended gear too and then I’ll be back on top.” and will proceed to grind the new content for its gear. This will lead to him getting back to dominance eventually, but in the process he’ll either need to pay real money at some point (as some players already do) or he’ll need to spend a significant portion of his time grinding, which risks him falling way behind in the current metagame.
- The now-obsolete-but-skillful player will say “Okay, this is frustrating. I was originally a great player, but now the game’s becoming more of a battle of who has the best loot.” and will quit the game. This is often the more common reaction to power creep, and when your game relies heavily on micro-transactions from an ever-decreasing player base, it leads to less people playing and more financial struggles for the game, forcing them to monetize in other ways and get more desperate.
And keep in mind, this is just a single set of gear. We already know, based on previous developer’s notes and posts, that the game’s level cap will be raised and that more tiers of gear are coming. Which means that eventually, Exotic gear will eventually no longer “cut it” for most functions and it certainly won’t be good enough for WvW. And when it no longer does, you’ll be hopping back on the gear treadmill with the rest of us.
As it has been said many times before, GW1 avoided this for many years by sticking with a hard cap of Lvl 20, and by introducing more variety in weapon and armor skins, instead of introducing more powerful weapons and gear. They did it by giving players the ability to customize themselves more and more, rather than funneling them all down certain pipelines to get the best gear and thus leaving the rest of the game abandoned. Yes, I know, GW2 isn’t GW1. But in this case, this is something that they really should have copied GW1 on. Because it was a good model that many players loved and it provided a dedicated player base of fans who were content with its vast PvP content and endgame skins. GW2 seems as though it’s trying to compete with WoW by following in the footsteps of WoW, and this is something that its devs should know better than to do by now. And if they continue down this route, they risk alienating players over time as the goalposts keep getting moved ever backwards, because eventually, everyone has a limit to how much grinding they can stand.
Remember when our developers talked about “strengthening the core game”?
How’d that work out for us so far?
Now let’s try some ideas that will really work.
How’d that work out for us so far?
Now let’s try some ideas that will really work.
I have to say that I strongly hope that they do not carry through with the statement of Ascended Armor and Weapons after all the community backlash. It would show a clear disregard for the wants of those who have dedicated to much towards this game.
As much as I would like to say that the addition of Ascended gear would be the day I quit Guild Wars 2, I do not think this would be true. I love this game. It has been everything I hoped for since it’s launch.
However, I do feel that it would cast a large shadow over the game. One of the draws of Guild Wars 1 and 2 for me was the important of visuals not stats. In GW1 I could have my armor and weapons be max level without having to worry about them becoming obsolete in an expansion. So far, although slightly different, GW2 does the something similar. You have numerous ways to easily obtain Exotics. If you want to spend the time to get a visual you desire, go ahead.
Adding even more grind to the game by making more armor with higher and higher stats every so often is exactly why I don’t play other mmo’s. It’s just unpleasant and not fun. I want to enjoy my gaming experience, not have to worry about having the next big thing.
Lastly, I would feel partially cheated out of $$$ should they eventually up the Power or even Level Tier of gear in the future. How many of us have dropped gold or cash for Fine Transmutation Stones to give our (final) Exotic items the look we wanted? How many would be a little miffed should this purchase be rendered pointless?
Sorry if theirs some typos, I wrote this in a rush.
And keep in mind, this is just a single set of gear. We already know, based on previous developer’s notes and posts, that the game’s level cap will be raised and that more tiers of gear are coming. Which means that eventually, Exotic gear will eventually no longer “cut it” for most functions and it certainly won’t be good enough for WvW. And when it no longer does, you’ll be hopping back on the gear treadmill with the rest of us.
So after a night of thinking on my posts, it seems you and Raine are both completely missing the point that I’ve been making in favor of arguing some static view of vertical progression as if it’s the concept itself that’s a problem. The problem with arguing from this point of view is you lack context.
All the best stats in the world don’t matter if I’m not gated from content.
I can (and have) tackled Explorables in Greens and Yellows, and succeeded, therefore exotics are negligible. I can beat players at lvl 80 on my 45 ele in WvW. He doesn’t even have a single rare. That stats in WvW largely take a back seat to the strategy.
Please explain to me how vertical progression impedes in any way on my game play experience, because so far, it hasn’t.
As I already illustrated, a simple ballpark estimate for Ascended gear (presuming it only raises power by 10% per item) suggests that it is likely to be as much as 23% more powerful than existing Exotic gear. That’s a massive leap forward, one that will definitely affect WvW’s metagame. Those with Ascended gear suddenly have a massive damage output advantage over players who previously dominated the game with their skill or tactics. And that’s bound to lead to one of two things happening:
- The now-obsolete-but-skillful player will say “Okay, no problem. I’ll just grind for Ascended gear too and then I’ll be back on top.” and will proceed to grind the new content for its gear. This will lead to him getting back to dominance eventually, but in the process he’ll either need to pay real money at some point (as some players already do) or he’ll need to spend a significant portion of his time grinding, which risks him falling way behind in the current metagame.
- The now-obsolete-but-skillful player will say “Okay, this is frustrating. I was originally a great player, but now the game’s becoming more of a battle of who has the best loot.” and will quit the game. This is often the more common reaction to power creep, and when your game relies heavily on micro-transactions from an ever-decreasing player base, it leads to less people playing and more financial struggles for the game, forcing them to monetize in other ways and get more desperate.
Good job revealing your ridiculous bias.
“The options are mandatory grind or mandatory cash shop.”
Give me a break.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
(edited by Mackdose.6504)
If they buffed up the old gear no one would need to get new.
Why is this a problem?
Because palyers being “done” with an MMO is not profitable for them.
So after a night of thinking on my posts, it seems you and Raine are both completely missing the point that I’ve been making in favor of arguing some static view of vertical progression as if it’s the concept itself that’s a problem. The problem with arguing from this point of view is you lack context.
All the best stats in the world don’t matter if I’m not gated from content.
I can (and have) tackled Explorables in Greens and Yellows, and succeeded, therefore exotics are negligible. I can beat players at lvl 80 on my 45 ele in WvW. He doesn’t even have a single rare. That stats in WvW largely take a back seat to the strategy.
Please explain to me how vertical progression impedes in any way on my game play experience, because so far, it hasn’t.
There is no such thing as a ‘static’ view of vertical progression. It is an element of game design and you either understand it or not. It’s that simple.
But, let’s assume your point is “All the best stats in the world don’t matter if I’m not gated from content.” If by that you mean the content is at your power level then I would agree with you. Running around Orr would not be much fun on a level 60 character. If you are at the same power level as all the other players and the environment then there is no gated content and no problem. Other than AR and the fractals there really is no gated content (other than by level) at the present time.
The problem with vertical progression is that it is designed to create gates. If vertical progression progresses, not some ‘static’ view of it, just vertical progression, and you don’t hop on the treadmill, eventually you will be that level 60 character trying to run around in Orr. At some point in time there will be effective gates that won’t let you pass. It’s actually designed to do this. The periodic treadmills are thought to provide a sense of progression and motivation for continued play. So, your alternatives are either quit or grind out the next tier of gear. It doesn’t matter that the treadmill is conveniently located closer to where you play than LA; it’s still a treadmill that you have to ride in order to continue playing the game.
There you have it. I’ve just explained how vertical progression impedes your gameplay experience, if you don’t like gear grinds and gated content that is. It’s really that simple. There is no mystery as to why a segment of the community disagrees with the decision to add vertical progression and gear grinds to the game.
(edited by Raine.1394)
So after a night of thinking on my posts, it seems you and Raine are both completely missing the point that I’ve been making in favor of arguing some static view of vertical progression as if it’s the concept itself that’s a problem. The problem with arguing from this point of view is you lack context.
All the best stats in the world don’t matter if I’m not gated from content.
I can (and have) tackled Explorables in Greens and Yellows, and succeeded, therefore exotics are negligible. I can beat players at lvl 80 on my 45 ele in WvW. He doesn’t even have a single rare. That stats in WvW largely take a back seat to the strategy.
Please explain to me how vertical progression impedes in any way on my game play experience, because so far, it hasn’t.
No, the one illustrating a lack of understanding here is you.
We’re not talking about “gating content”. We’re talking about the fact that, as power levels continue to increase (and the grind to obtain them similarly increases), this will create problems for in-game content and future content development.
My ranger’s still got less than full Exotics and gets along just fine, too. But that won’t be the case forever, as they raise the level cap and continue to make new items. Why?
It boils down to difficulty. Many players have cried for higher difficulty already. And as player stats go up, the game’s difficulty will decrease unless they increase the power of monsters to compare. This is the definition of power creep.
Eventually those greens and blues won’t cut it (or else you’ll be slowing your entire team down), because the devs will have had to raise the difficulty ceiling to meet the demands of the new gear they’ve unleashed.
It’s a very simple cycle and it’s been demonstrated in many MMOs before GW2. yet somehow GW2 will be different, you assert. To which I say “I’ll believe it when I see it”, because I’ve already seen this game claim that it’ll be “so different” in a lot of areas that they didn’t really deliver in.
Good job revealing your ridiculous bias.
“The options are mandatory grind or mandatory cash shop.”
Give me a break.
Oh, so there’s currently another way to obtain Ascended items besides grinding the Fractals?
Please share, we’d all love to hear it.
And if you’re looking optimistically to the future with their promises to introduce Ascended items in other areas, I think it’s necessary to point out to you how much work it is to get an Ascended item right now, much less an infused version of one. If you believe that they’re going to make other methods of obtaining Ascended items that are significantly easier than all the work you have to do in the Fractals, then you’re mistaken (because really, why would they introduce other ways to get this gear that are WAY easier than the original way of getting them?).
They specifically stated that the purpose of Ascended items was “to bridge the gap between Exotic and Legendary”. This means that getting Ascended items will be a grind of some sort. After all, they already are. And don’t be surprised when it’s discovered that there are ways to effectively “buy” Ascended gear, because it’ll happen soon enough.
And then the cycle will begin all over again when they raise the level cap and introduce even more new items and new tiers.
You can dismiss our opinions if you wish, slap the “bias” label on it and ignore it. Go right ahead, I don’t mind. I’m reassured in my beliefs and I know what will happen unless this trend is curbed, as do many other gamers on these forums, which is why Ascended items received such massive levels of complaints. Because we’ve seen it before, and we’ve no evidence as of yet that GW2 is going to somehow buck the trend of how vertical progression works in virtually every other MMO out there.
We’re not trying to degrade this game and insult it and ruin it, we’re trying to get its developers to see that they’re going down the same path as many other MMOs out there, and we bought their game because they said they’d be different.
Remember when our developers talked about “strengthening the core game”?
How’d that work out for us so far?
Now let’s try some ideas that will really work.
How’d that work out for us so far?
Now let’s try some ideas that will really work.
My ranger’s still got less than full Exotics and gets along just fine, too. But that won’t be the case forever, as they raise the level cap and continue to make new items. Why?
It boils down to difficulty. Many players have cried for higher difficulty already. And as player stats go up, the game’s difficulty will decrease unless they increase the power of monsters to compare. This is the definition of power creep.
QFT. This person right here gets it, and has stated the problem most of us have in probably the most straight to the point and accurate manner I have seen.
My personal issue is not with ascended gear alone, but what it represents. If I knew that ascended gear was the end of the line, and no more gear would be added, monsters wouldn’t be boosted in power, and my character would always be viable for all content in the game (just as my Guild Wars 1 character was), then I would still play regularly and say “have fun with your ascended gear”! But that isn’t the case.
You cannot have both a stat plateau, which is one of the core selling points of the Guild Wars series and what sets it apart from all the WoW clones out there, AND gear progression/level cap increases. Sure, ascended gear is only 1 tier of gear. Yea it takes a ton of grinding to get, but that’s all it is- 1 tier. But what about expansions? Unlike Guild Wars 1, this game’s devs show interest in raising the level cap. New level cap means new gear, right? So when you finish grinding out your ascended gear, you get to watch all your gear become obsolete as you level to the next cap. And then the one after that, and the one after that.
Suddenly, it goes from the Guild Wars 1 stat plateau to the WoW gear treadmill/power creep. That is the issue I have with this game. That is why I don’t call this game Guild Wars 2, but instead just GW2. This game has nothing in common with Guild Wars 1 except it’s lore. That’s it. No stat plateau. No gear plateau. No guild battles.
This isn’t the sequel to Guild Wars 1. This is World of Tyria. I just anxiously await the day The Guild Wars series gets its first sequel.
(edited by Tolmos.8395)
We’re not trying to degrade this game and insult it and ruin it, we’re trying to get its developers to see that they’re going down the same path as many other MMOs out there, and we bought their game because they said they’d be different.
This is an important point that should be emphasized. I love GW2. I have 6 level 80 characters and 11 characters total. I play a lot and I enjoy it. I experience the problems that are to be expected with a new game that needs tuning and I might point them out, but I don’t complain about them being there. I do complain about vertical progression. But I do it with the hope that they can somehow snatch victory from the jaws of what I believe was a huge misstep.
That gear should still be just as good as it is today, tomorrow and foreseeable future.
Ascended Average: (1-0.5)1209 + 0.52.07*1209 = 1855.8 average damage
Exotic Average: (1-0.49)1209 + 0.492.02*1209 = 1813.3 average damageWhich means that you’re actually dealing 2.3% more damage on average.
oh dear lord! please stop the production of this game because new gear gives players a 2.3% advantage over another player who choose not to grind. what a incredibly overpowered gearset that needs to be removed this instant! how DARE anet give those progression players a 2.3% increase for MONTHS of grinding
/sarcasm(you know, for those that just dont get it)
you all need to quit kitten and moaning about a 2.3% increase, it’s incredibly pathetic
Correction: it’s a 2.3% increase with only three pieces of gear. And those pieces of gear have some of the smallest stat boosts out of any equipment category.
The gulf will be MUCH wider once they introduce accessories, armor, and weapons.
For example, let’s just pretend that the increase in stats between an Ascended item and an Exotic is “only” 10% (it’s actually larger than that in many cases, especially Critical Damage, but we’ll just pretend it’s not).
So, given the established stats for an Exotic set of armor, we could reasonably expect that our armor set will boost us to 347 Power, 246 Precision, and 18% Critical Damage. And of course, we’ll be hitting harder with our new Ascended weapon, dealing 1095-1210 damage with 197 Power, 141 Precision, and 10% Critical Damage. And we’ll have some shiny new Ascended earrings and amulets, so we’ll be sitting at a cool 222 Power, 158 Precision, and 12% Critical Damage.
Meaning we’re now doing:
1152.5 * (916+197+300+347+222+262) / (916+968) = 1373 damage per strike
[4+((916+300+141+246+158+171)-916)/21] = 52% chance to deal (150+18+10+12+21) = 221% damage.New Ascended Average: 1373*(1-0.52) + 1373*0.52*2.21 = 2236.9 average damage
Oh hey, look at that, we’re dealing 23% more damage than the Exotic equipped guy. But that’s still such a small number, surely it won’t affect WvW that much! Nevermind, of course, that these ballpark estimates are quite likely far below the actual figures, as Ascended rings and back items are far stronger than just +10% to Exotics in many cases. This clearly won’t impact the metagame, no sir.
And then of course the gulf will continue to grow after they raise the level cap and introduce the next tier of items after this one, because some people just hit that Ascended wall so early, ya know? Gotta make sure they still have stuff to do!
And viola, you’re already on the treadmill and you don’t even realize it.
GW1 completely avoided this with a hard level cap and a set power level for all items. GW2 tried to reinvent the wheel when all it had to do was look at its brother’s notes on the subject. There is no reason for Ascended gear to even exist, and the fact that it’s only just the start is plenty of reason to worry.
I really appreciate your posts. Thanks for going to the trouble of doing the math. I tend to see the problem clearly in the abstract but it is always helpful to have a concrete demonstration.
Same here Thanks!
That’s the problem with the arguments that ascended armor isn’t more powerful and doesn’t give a clear advantage in WvW and PVE is that they conveniently forget the entire scope of the gear we haven’t seen yet or how it will be distributed. The wider the gap the worse the problem and more then likely we’ll see an exodus away from this title if that does happen.
Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!
Ya know. Ascended gear doesn’t drop like rain in this game. I cannot log into Lion’s Arch and have Ascended gear piling up at my feet. I cannot walk to the nearest tree and just pick the items I need off it’s branches.
Ascended gear comes from 2 places only so far: Fractals and the Mystic Forge
From levels 1 to 9 in Fractals you will NOT GET ANY Ascended Gear drops. None. Nothing. Nada. Nil, Zero.
From levels 10-19 on EVEN levels only like 10, 12, 14, etc etc you have a ONCE A DAY CHANCE to get an Ascended Ring. If you do 10 of those dailies you can trade in 10 shards or whatever for a ring.
From level 20+ I THINK you can acquire weapons. I don’t know. I haven’t progressed past level 17.
You can craft an Ascended Back Piece from the Mystic Forge. This doesn’t come cheap…AT ALL.
The game has NO OTHER Avenues for acquiring Ascended Gear. Ascended ARMOR doesn’t even exist.
Oh wait…I forgot that Ascended Gear is BiS gear. AMG! I HAVE TO HAVE IT NOW. Best in slot gear? You are worried about acquiring best in slot gear in which more then likely you will ONLY have 2 items. 1 Ring and 1 Back Piece. Do these 2 items REALLY make that much of a difference to your spec that you have to be paranoid about it?
Why are you causing such a ruckus about gear that essentially does nothing for you except protect you from the Agony Mechanic which is only found in FRACTALS?
The gear you have acquired will suffice for as long as it needs. You did well to complete this armor set and you will NOT be replacing it wholesale any time soon. Or any time in the next 6 months for that matter.
Now go back to playing the game and enjoying it.
PS: I haven’t forgotten the fact that in the entire scope of Ascended Gear, there will be a LARGE gap…at SOME point. But right now…the gap is miniscule and worrying about acquiring the gear over your regular exotic set now is just silly.
Worry about an entire set of Ascended gear when ALL OF THAT GEAR is finally available….Not now.
(edited by Siliconhobbit.4361)
Worry about an entire set of Ascended gear when ALL OF THAT GEAR is finally available….Not now.
You might consider reading through the thread for context. I don’t have any issue at all with ascended gear, per se. My only issue is with vertical progression. The devs confirmed in the AMA that we would have vertical progression moving forward. The first pieces of the first tier of gear are here. My issue is here now so if you don’t mind I’ll address it.
(edited by Raine.1394)
That math by critickitten is very wrong, just so you know…
I dunno if it really matters. It’s all pretend because it’s based on gear that doesn’t exist.
But ya ought to get the numbers right, even if they’re made up.
That math by critickitten is very wrong, just so you know…
I dunno if it really matters. It’s all pretend because it’s based on gear that doesn’t exist.
But ya ought to get the numbers right, even if they’re made up.
Great, we got a mathematician among us! Could you please post the corrected numbers or show where his are incorrect? That would be very helpful. What’s not helpful is simply making an assertion without backing it up. There is quite a bit of that already on the thread so you won’t feel alone.
(edited by Raine.1394)
Why is level 80 better then 79? Cus +1. Who wants to be the best you can ever be one month after the game is out, and then just soak there for the next five years. Honestly, haven’t you folks played RPG’s? Didn’t it suck when you had nothing left to kill or get in FF7?
Most of us did play Guild Wars 1, which did exactly as you described. And ya know what? We loved it.
Not every game has to be WoW to be enjoyable.
Last time I checked GW1 was still active. I guess if all you want to do is play GW1 there are still servers around to do so? Didnt realise Anet promised GW2 was going to be GW1 with a glossy finish.
Go back to WoW. Most overused brainless arguement 2012-2013
I deplore Anet’s choice to bring in endgame gear progression but it is here to stay.
The problem then remains of how it is implemented and this is the real issue if you accept it’s here to stay. It was poorly implemented and I don’t know what they will do next when the rest of ascended gear will come out.
Other games simply do gear progression better. No game is completely unique, so ok, they decided to go this way but the poor implementation doesn’t help the situation.
It’s a game forum. The truth is not to be found here.
People complain about the ascended weapons being a “gear treadmill” in the future, but I hear that they are going to make ascended items easier to obtain in the future (not sure what they will do) so I would hope that what they plan on doing is making the ascended items just as easy to acquire as exotics (maybe SLIGHTLY more difficult.)
Another thing, why not make more powerful weapons as the game grows and gets expansions and such? If you have the SAME STATS and level and gear after, say 2 or 3 expansions then things can get old, there would be no reason to do anything if you have the maximum stats you want and the cap never increases.
People complain about the ascended weapons being a “gear treadmill” in the future, but I hear that they are going to make ascended items easier to obtain in the future (not sure what they will do) so I would hope that what they plan on doing is making the ascended items just as easy to acquire as exotics (maybe SLIGHTLY more difficult.)
Another thing, why not make more powerful weapons as the game grows and gets expansions and such? If you have the SAME STATS and level and gear after, say 2 or 3 expansions then things can get old, there would be no reason to do anything if you have the maximum stats you want and the cap never increases.
You actually have the same stats before and after the grind with vertical progression. It offers no solution to things getting old, it’s just a treadmill grind to keep you busy playing the game. Let me lay it out for you. Before the new shiny tier all players are at power level X as is the content. After the treadmill all players are at power level Y as is the shiny new environment. There has been no change in player power relative to each other or the environment. So you see stat inflation doesn’t actually take you anywhere, it simply makes you expend effort to chase stat inflation. Lot’s of people came to GW2 to escape the gear grind treadmill. I was one of those from WoW.
There is nothing wrong with vertical progression in and of itself. For those who enjoy an illusion of progression (Mesmers for sure) it works great. For those who realize it doesn’t actually progress anything but your sense of obligation and experience of burn out, it would be great to have a new kind of MMO.
Why is level 80 better then 79? Cus +1. Who wants to be the best you can ever be one month after the game is out, and then just soak there for the next five years. Honestly, haven’t you folks played RPG’s? Didn’t it suck when you had nothing left to kill or get in FF7?
Most of us did play Guild Wars 1, which did exactly as you described. And ya know what? We loved it.
Not every game has to be WoW to be enjoyable.
Last time I checked GW1 was still active. I guess if all you want to do is play GW1 there are still servers around to do so? Didnt realise Anet promised GW2 was going to be GW1 with a glossy finish.
Well I wish I had been made aware before getting hyped up about it that GW2 was actually intended to by WoW with better graphics.
Why is level 80 better then 79? Cus +1. Who wants to be the best you can ever be one month after the game is out, and then just soak there for the next five years. Honestly, haven’t you folks played RPG’s? Didn’t it suck when you had nothing left to kill or get in FF7?
Most of us did play Guild Wars 1, which did exactly as you described. And ya know what? We loved it.
Not every game has to be WoW to be enjoyable.
Last time I checked GW1 was still active. I guess if all you want to do is play GW1 there are still servers around to do so? Didnt realise Anet promised GW2 was going to be GW1 with a glossy finish.
Well I wish I had been made aware before getting hyped up about it that GW2 was actually intended to by WoW with better graphics.
well considering GW2 is nothing like WoW in almost any respect you just acting like the sky is falling for the sake of it. Gotta love the uninformed garbage comments that just throw WoW around like it lends some weight to their stupid comments.
Go back to WoW. Most overused brainless arguement 2012-2013
PS: I haven’t forgotten the fact that in the entire scope of Ascended Gear, there will be a LARGE gap…at SOME point. But right now…the gap is miniscule and worrying about acquiring the gear over your regular exotic set now is just silly..
You have pointed out already, that getting the ascended gear we have now is neither fast nor easy. Nothing so far suggests, that the future gear will be any easier to get. So, we really have to worry about it now, because once the full set will be available and the gap will widen to meaningful range it will be too late to jump on a treadmill – we’ll already be months behind.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Just pretend Ascended Weapons have been in the game since Day 1.
There! Problem solved.
They fill the ridiculous grind that was exotic to legendary.
-snip-
You’re a bit late to this thread. I’ve already proven statistically that a full set of Ascended gear is not a trivial boost.
Meaning we’re now doing:
1152.5 * (916+197+300+347+222+262) / (916+968) = 1373 damage per strike
[4+((916+300+141+246+158+171)-916)/21] = 52% chance to deal (150+18+10+12+21) = 221% damage.New Ascended Average: 1373*(1-0.52) + 1373*0.52*2.21 = *2236.9 average damage8
Oh hey, look at that, we’re dealing 23% more damage than the Exotic equipped guy.
That math by critickitten is very wrong, just so you know…
I dunno if it really matters. It’s all pretend because it’s based on gear that doesn’t exist.
But ya ought to get the numbers right, even if they’re made up.
News to me, since all of the formulas I used came directly from the GW2 wiki. So presuming that those were the actual stats of real gear, that math should be entirely accurate. Otherwise the GW2 Wiki is incorrect.
And I actually state outright that my math on the Ascended gear is an estimation based on the presumption that Ascended items yet to come will release with only 10% higher stats than their predecessors. However, my math on the Exotic gear is perfectly fine and is based on Exotic-level Berserker gear. But yes, my Ascended gear is “fake”, as I admitted rather directly in the post in question. It’s merely an estimation meant to illustrate how much more powerful a player with full Ascended gear will be than one with full Exotics.
And on that note, I’ll post the stats for an Ascended ring vs an Exotic ring and leave it to you to figure out just how accurate that 10% estimation really was.
Ascended ring: 103 Power, 68 Precision, 8% Critical Damage
Exotic ring: 92 Power, 63 Precision, 6% Critical Damage
That said, I’d certainly love to see your evidence that my math is flawed. Please, post the correct math for all of us to see.
Remember when our developers talked about “strengthening the core game”?
How’d that work out for us so far?
Now let’s try some ideas that will really work.
How’d that work out for us so far?
Now let’s try some ideas that will really work.
(edited by critickitten.1498)
The gulf will be MUCH wider once they introduce accessories, armor, and weapons.
For example, let’s just pretend that the increase in stats between an Ascended item and an Exotic is “only” 10% (it’s actually larger than that in many cases, especially Critical Damage, but we’ll just pretend it’s not).
how on earth do you know this? oh right, you’re just making things up so you can prove your point.
you may fool others in this thread with your made up math. since you’re in so good with the dev team and you know so much about what new gear is coming out, why dont you tell us some more stuff that we keep asking on the forums but the devs wont answer
(edited by FourTwenty.4268)
how on earth do you know this? oh right, you’re just making things up so you can prove your point.
you may fool others in this thread with your made up math. since you’re in so good with the dev team and you know so much about what new gear is coming out, why dont you tell us some more stuff that we keep asking on the forums but the devs wont answer
reported for trying to spread a conspiracy
I’ve provided plenty of evidence. It’s not “made up math”, it’s math based on formulas and data provided on the GW2 Wiki, which anyone can access and use.
The formulas for damage calculation, the basics of how critical damage works in the game, and the stats for both Exotic and Ascended gear….it’s all in there, if you’re willing to take the time to read it. I maintain that unless the data in those wiki pages is wrong, my math should be quite accurate in regards to how powerful the Exotic gear is.
And the Ascended equipment stats were simply an assumption based on existing data. As you can clearly see in my last post, Ascended items have approximately 10% more stat points per item (except in the case of Critical Damage where it’s generally higher), so it’s fair to presume that all of the other Ascended gear will probably follow a similar trend.
As I stated earlier, I welcome any post providing tangible evidence that my math is “fake” or “made up” or “wrong”. Because right now, I’d wager that you’re making these assertions that I’m lying because you don’t understand the mathematics and where my numbers are coming from, rather than because you have actual physical proof of its invalidity. I strongly encourage you to look it all up in the wiki if you doubt the validity of my math. I think you’ll be quite surprised.
I’d also welcome a correction from a developer directly, if they have the time to do so. I would certainly not mind being proven wrong. In any case, once Ascended armor comes out, we’ll know the truth of the matter and we’ll be able to see whether I was right or not.
I will expect a formal public apology from both you and mulch.2586 if indeed I am proven right, of course, since you are actively attacking my character in a public manner rather than respectfully disagreeing with me in PM.
Remember when our developers talked about “strengthening the core game”?
How’d that work out for us so far?
Now let’s try some ideas that will really work.
How’d that work out for us so far?
Now let’s try some ideas that will really work.
Just pretend Ascended Weapons have been in the game since Day 1.
There! Problem solved.
They fill the ridiculous grind that was exotic to legendary.
Right. Again, the problem is not Ascended gear per se. The problem is not that they added ascended gear, again per se, the problem is that they added vertical progression. Consider the two words that make up the term or concept. Vertical progression progresses by periodically raising the power level of players, usually through gear acquired through a grind. No amount of pretending will change that. Read the thread as the arguments have all been made. If you wish to respond to an argument by all means do so; telling us to pretend doesn’t really move the discussion forward.
(edited by Raine.1394)
-snip-
You’re a bit late to this thread. I’ve already proven statistically that a full set of Ascended gear is not a trivial boost.
Meaning we’re now doing:
1152.5 * (916+197+300+347+222+262) / (916+968) = 1373 damage per strike
[4+((916+300+141+246+158+171)-916)/21] = 52% chance to deal (150+18+10+12+21) = 221% damage.New Ascended Average: 1373*(1-0.52) + 1373*0.52*2.21 = *2236.9 average damage8
Oh hey, look at that, we’re dealing 23% more damage than the Exotic equipped guy.
That math by critickitten is very wrong, just so you know…
I dunno if it really matters. It’s all pretend because it’s based on gear that doesn’t exist.
But ya ought to get the numbers right, even if they’re made up.
News to me, since all of the formulas I used came directly from the GW2 wiki. So presuming that those were the actual stats of real gear, that math should be entirely accurate. Otherwise the GW2 Wiki is incorrect.
And I actually state outright that my math on the Ascended gear is an estimation based on the presumption that Ascended items yet to come will release with only 10% higher stats than their predecessors. However, my math on the Exotic gear is perfectly fine and is based on Exotic-level Berserker gear. But yes, my Ascended gear is “fake”, as I admitted rather directly in the post in question. It’s merely an estimation meant to illustrate how much more powerful a player with full Ascended gear will be than one with full Exotics.
And on that note, I’ll post the stats for an Ascended ring vs an Exotic ring and leave it to you to figure out just how accurate that 10% estimation really was.
Ascended ring: 103 Power, 68 Precision, 8% Critical Damage
Exotic ring: 92 Power, 63 Precision, 6% Critical DamageThat said, I’d certainly love to see your evidence that my math is flawed. Please, post the correct math for all of us to see.
Yeah, I asked mulch to provide his corrected numbers. Appears he was a hit and run troll.
The gulf will be MUCH wider once they introduce accessories, armor, and weapons.
For example, let’s just pretend that the increase in stats between an Ascended item and an Exotic is “only” 10% (it’s actually larger than that in many cases, especially Critical Damage, but we’ll just pretend it’s not).
how on earth do you know this? oh right, you’re just making things up so you can prove your point.
you may fool others in this thread with your made up math. since you’re in so good with the dev team and you know so much about what new gear is coming out, why dont you tell us some more stuff that we keep asking on the forums but the devs wont answer
What you don’t understand is vertical progression. Google it and learn what it is and what it does. No one is fooling anyone regarding vertical progression. They are operating from the definition and inferring results. This is what a rational human does. It’s why we don’t ever need to stick our hands in fire to decide whether it burns—we’ve experienced the burn and have inferred that it will always be so. By all means join in the conversation. But if you want to add to it meaningfully, you will need to educate yourself on the subject at hand. A good beginning would be to read through thread from the beginning. There is a free education on the subject of vertical progression available here and it’s a good place to start.
(edited by Raine.1394)
What you don’t understand is vertical progression. Google it and learn what it is and what it does. No one is fooling anyone regarding vertical progression. They are operating from the definition and inferring results. This is what a rational human does. It’s why we don’t ever need to stick our hands in fire to decide whether it burns—we’ve experienced the burn and have inferred that it will always be so. By all means join in the conversation. But if you want to add to it meaningfully, you will need to educate yourself on the subject at hand. A good beginning would be to read through thread from the beginning. There is a free education on the subject of vertical progression available here and it’s a good place to start.
awww, you’re so cute. you think you can be condescending and it makes you smarter than me about the subject.
i never said the game didn’t have vertical progression. in fact i dont think i ever even mentioned the term vertical progression. but you have it in your signature so im sure you’re just mad that anet put it in the game.
personally, i LOVE vertical progression. i LOVE the gear grind and it’s the reason why i started playing GW2 again.
now that you know my stance on vertical progression(since i never said it here before) we can discuss the topic at hand.
the person i quoted used MADE UP stats to prove a point when there is no confirmation on what the new stats on ascended gear will be. he assumed, and as much as i hate the saying, it made himself look like an kitten
my point, is that even as much as 5 or 10 percent gear increase that a FULL ascended gear set would give you, is nothing game breaking. i bet you can complete every single piece of content in this game with WHITE gear. whats that called, common gear? lol i bet you the difference between common gear and exotic gear is more than a 10% difference for the whole set.
this ‘treadmill’ is all in your head which has been programmed since the start of your first MMO most likely. just like the players that cry because it takes too long to make a legendary, you want everything in the game given to you, if not, then you cry.
/thread
So people constantly need to get new gear to satisfy their needs? Why can’t someone just buy one Ferrari, and take good care of it : /
It’s because it’s human nature.
It’s just like how tech-hobby people upgrade their iphones after every new series.
People complain about the ascended weapons being a “gear treadmill” in the future, but I hear that they are going to make ascended items easier to obtain in the future (not sure what they will do) so I would hope that what they plan on doing is making the ascended items just as easy to acquire as exotics (maybe SLIGHTLY more difficult.)
Another thing, why not make more powerful weapons as the game grows and gets expansions and such? If you have the SAME STATS and level and gear after, say 2 or 3 expansions then things can get old, there would be no reason to do anything if you have the maximum stats you want and the cap never increases.
Wait, first you say just pretend it was always in the game taking away the element of gear progression from that point of view and then you advocate a gear treadmill in the second part of you message….
Sense, you make none.
It’s a game forum. The truth is not to be found here.
the person i quoted used MADE UP stats to prove a point when there is no confirmation on what the new stats on ascended gear will be. he assumed, and as much as i hate the saying, it made himself look like an kitten
You’re right, there is no confirmation on what those stats will look like.
However, I’ve already proven that existing Ascended gear is approximately 10% stronger than Exotic gear. Why would I “assume” that future Ascended gear would be any less powerful?
I’m basing my “assumptions” on existing data. You’re throwing out accusations that my math is wrong, but refusing to provide any proof for it. So I must respectfully disagree with this notion that my argument is weaker than yours.
And I will expect a public apology from you, should I turn out to be right. I will call you out on it. Because I don’t appreciate someone trying to attack my character (which, btw, is ad hominem and only weakens your own argument) instead of actually trying to prove my math incorrect.
I’ll ask you again: either provide actual, tangible proof that my math is incorrect, assuming a 10% increase in power for Ascended gear. If you can’t do that, you shouldn’t be posting here any more.
Remember when our developers talked about “strengthening the core game”?
How’d that work out for us so far?
Now let’s try some ideas that will really work.
How’d that work out for us so far?
Now let’s try some ideas that will really work.
existing Ascended gear is approximately 10% stronger than Exotic gear. Why would I “assume” that future Ascended gear would be any less powerful?
I’m basing my “assumptions” on existing data.
you dont need to assume devs back you up 10% is accurate
“the sum total of new progression rewards we added to go with it provided a 5-10% stat increase in 2 of 12 slots.”
source = mike o brien reddit AMA about a month ago
so if you guys want to dispute these numbers i suggest you take it up with the studio design director + the other devs.
also notice how he says 12 slots when there are 14, im guessing its a bigger gap for weapons
i wish the devs had a consistent vision and didn’t push out content they know is flawed
What you don’t understand is vertical progression. Google it and learn what it is and what it does. No one is fooling anyone regarding vertical progression. They are operating from the definition and inferring results. This is what a rational human does. It’s why we don’t ever need to stick our hands in fire to decide whether it burns—we’ve experienced the burn and have inferred that it will always be so. By all means join in the conversation. But if you want to add to it meaningfully, you will need to educate yourself on the subject at hand. A good beginning would be to read through thread from the beginning. There is a free education on the subject of vertical progression available here and it’s a good place to start.
awww, you’re so cute. you think you can be condescending and it makes you smarter than me about the subject.
i never said the game didn’t have vertical progression. in fact i dont think i ever even mentioned the term vertical progression. but you have it in your signature so im sure you’re just mad that anet put it in the game.
personally, i LOVE vertical progression. i LOVE the gear grind and it’s the reason why i started playing GW2 again.
now that you know my stance on vertical progression(since i never said it here before) we can discuss the topic at hand.
the person i quoted used MADE UP stats to prove a point when there is no confirmation on what the new stats on ascended gear will be. he assumed, and as much as i hate the saying, it made himself look like an kitten
my point, is that even as much as 5 or 10 percent gear increase that a FULL ascended gear set would give you, is nothing game breaking. i bet you can complete every single piece of content in this game with WHITE gear. whats that called, common gear? lol i bet you the difference between common gear and exotic gear is more than a 10% difference for the whole set.
this ‘treadmill’ is all in your head which has been programmed since the start of your first MMO most likely. just like the players that cry because it takes too long to make a legendary, you want everything in the game given to you, if not, then you cry.
/thread
If you love gear grinds and are happy that vertical progression is in the game than you are taking the only rational opposing position to those disappointed with the addition of gear treadmills to the game—and I applaud you for it. The later part of your post betrays some confusion however. You are arguing that a 10% stat increase is insignificant. Do you really believe that? You’re back playing because they added vertical progression, but are you happy with what you allude to as insignificant vertical progression. Why do you feel the need to minimize it? Are you saying that you are patient enough to wait for the future tiers that will amount to a significant progression in stats? I mean, if you get your sense of progression through stat inflation, it should feel significant, right?
Your last paragraph is just wrong. The concept of a gear grind treadmill is a general concept in gaming. It’s called a treadmill for a reason. It’s busy work that doesn’t take you anywhere. It’s not something that exists as one person’s idea—again, it’s a generally understood concept. Anet hit this hard in their pre-release marketing. They said they didn’t make games like that.
So, realize that I am simply taking the opposite position from yours. I don’t like a method of progression that goes nowhere and gives me busy work. I’d rather pursue my own goals in a game.