I just found out : /

I just found out : /

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Posted by: Zorada.9457

Zorada.9457

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See, I don’t blame either of you for making the posts you did. Posts like these aren’t meant to be malicious, they just come from a fundamental misunderstanding of the concept of vertical progression, and why it’s generally considered a bad thing by many players of this game. So I’ll try to break it down for you.

Vertical progression is a system whereby an already established game continues to add new equipment of increasingly higher power levels, either in expansions or patches. The sole goal of such a thing is to provide new content for max level characters to grind for, to give them a reason to keep playing. And that’s a fine goal, but vertical progression is the wrong means by which to do it.

There’s no problems with power differences between a Lvl 1 and a Lvl 80. This is part of the natural progression of any RPG: your character grows and you grow with it. You gain more traits, more skills, and can wear better gear. And again, this is fine. The problem comes in when you hit max level and suddenly you’re introducing new tiers of gear at that level on a regular basis, or when you start raising the level cap just to introduce new tiers of gear (both of which are confirmed to be happening at some point in the future for GW2).

This introduces a very common problem known as “power creep”, which simply means that the game’s “Best-In-Slot” items keep getting made obsolete by newer gear. This is, in effect, “moving the goalposts” for a player in order to keep them playing, what some people call the “treadmill”. It gives players a reason to keep playing, that much is true, but it also gives players less of a reason to play older content, generally because that older content is more poorly designed and far less rewarding in general.

We can already see this in effect in GW2. Remember how the designers wanted to make the entire game playable at any level so you could go anywhere and do anything? Have you noticed that, despite this, a lot of the older content tends not to get as much attention any more? There’s less people in the low level maps, there’s less people running non-Fractals dungeons, there’s less people running the dragons and the temples, and practically no one plays in the Southsun Cove unless they’re specifically built to farm Karka or are going after the rich Ori node. And this is because of the issue described above. What power creep does is not only raise the bar on what the “BiS” items are, it also makes a lot of existing content obsolete. Fractals is perhaps the best example of this: once it came out, the older dungeons looked positively godawful by comparison, and were less rewarding to boot, so less people started playing them. People don’t want to be funneled into one area of GW2, they want to play everywhere, but right now the devs’ steps towards vertical progression and more grinding for top gear are making that a more difficult thing to achieve.

Now the devs are taking some positive steps. They intend to introduce Ascended gear in more locations of the game, and that’s great. That’ll help keep older content useful in the game without having it all go to waste. But there’s still the core problem of power creep itself rendering a lot of the game’s older gear worthless.

(to be continued in my next post)

Very nice wall of text but i do already know what power creep is thanks mate.

The point is if you dont buy into the power creep and have to have the best of everything then they wont make it so. They do it so people buy stuff from the real money side of the game as well as giving you more content to aim for.

You know who is to blame for this? its not the Devs its you and me and anyone else who plays these games because no body is happy and they scream for more more more. If people didnt buy into the progression then they wouldnt do it.

Im not here to get into an argument with anyone but if your old enough you will understand that games have fundimentaly changed over the past 20+ years and the change is run by the users not the devs. they are just giving the masses what they want.

I just found out : /

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Posted by: critickitten.1498

critickitten.1498

Very nice wall of text but i do already know what power creep is thanks mate.

The point is if you dont buy into the power creep and have to have the best of everything then they wont make it so. They do it so people buy stuff from the real money side of the game as well as giving you more content to aim for.

You know who is to blame for this? its not the Devs its you and me and anyone else who plays these games because no body is happy and they scream for more more more. If people didnt buy into the progression then they wouldnt do it.

Im not here to get into an argument with anyone but if your old enough you will understand that games have fundimentaly changed over the past 20+ years and the change is run by the users not the devs. they are just giving the masses what they want.

So your suggestion for fixing the problem is….?

You’re arguing that it’s an impossible battle and thus can’t be changed. I’m arguing that it’s impossible to know the outcome of the battle if you never try to fight it in the first place.

If your only point is that it can’t be changed because people honestly don’t want it changed, I’d say these forums, the number of Reddit threads, and the complaints in almost every other GW2 fan forum are a concrete example of how wrong you are.

Remember when our developers talked about “strengthening the core game”?
How’d that work out for us so far?
Now let’s try some ideas that will really work.

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Posted by: Raine.1394

Raine.1394

Very nice wall of text but i do already know what power creep is thanks mate.

The point is if you dont buy into the power creep and have to have the best of everything then they wont make it so. They do it so people buy stuff from the real money side of the game as well as giving you more content to aim for.

You know who is to blame for this? its not the Devs its you and me and anyone else who plays these games because no body is happy and they scream for more more more. If people didnt buy into the progression then they wouldnt do it.

Im not here to get into an argument with anyone but if your old enough you will understand that games have fundimentaly changed over the past 20+ years and the change is run by the users not the devs. they are just giving the masses what they want.

I don’t think its helpful to blame users for the bad elements of game design. Users with bad ideas should not see their bad ideas win the day. I’m reminded of an interview with Eric Clapton after Cream played the Fillmore West. He was asked why Cream was so much better than the San Fransisco bands. He said simply: They are listening to the wrong people. Those in Cream listened to the blues and jazz masters, those in the sanfran bands listened to “the wrong people”. The quote has obviously stuck with me a long time and, I believe, with good reason.

It’s not the voices that are out there that matter, it’s which ones you choose to listen and respond to. I would much prefer a game company that operated from a strong game design philosophy rather than a democratic vote on any given issue. If that idea for a ‘new’ MMO is an idea whose time has come, people will get on board because of the driving philosophy. Player feedback is very valuable and I’m not minimizing it. It can be very helpful in evolving a game. But, the responsibility for what the game becomes lies solely with the game developer. They are the only ones who can make the relevant decisions. In terms of the current thread, we can say that we have vertical progression because Anet chose to add it to the game, not because players asked for it. If you don’t localize responsibility, no one will be responsible.And, if no one is responsible for breaking it, no one really needs to fix it.

(edited by Raine.1394)

I just found out : /

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Posted by: pinkbunnies.4620

pinkbunnies.4620

gear treadmill was supposed to be against the guiding ideology of this game… such a let down. being expected to grind out countless fractal runs to be on equal footing in the gear department for wpvp competativeness is super lame.

I do understand that some people have no life and need thier hand held with a carrot in front of them given candy every time they step in the right direction or else they will cry and cry and cry but seriously can we have a little backbone and not capitulate to these people for one time in mmo history? theyve already ruined every other mmo ive ever played.

edited to add: also this type of gear treadmill/power creep will trivialize and destroy all activity in 99.9% of the pve world maps. Its been shown to be true in the rest of the mmos and if this game goes there it will happen here too. such a sad sad disapointment.

also legendary weapons are actually “loser” weapons because you have to be a no life loser to have one already.

(edited by pinkbunnies.4620)

I just found out : /

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Posted by: Zorada.9457

Zorada.9457

Very nice wall of text but i do already know what power creep is thanks mate.

The point is if you dont buy into the power creep and have to have the best of everything then they wont make it so. They do it so people buy stuff from the real money side of the game as well as giving you more content to aim for.

You know who is to blame for this? its not the Devs its you and me and anyone else who plays these games because no body is happy and they scream for more more more. If people didnt buy into the progression then they wouldnt do it.

Im not here to get into an argument with anyone but if your old enough you will understand that games have fundimentaly changed over the past 20+ years and the change is run by the users not the devs. they are just giving the masses what they want.

So your suggestion for fixing the problem is….?

You’re arguing that it’s an impossible battle and thus can’t be changed. I’m arguing that it’s impossible to know the outcome of the battle if you never try to fight it in the first place.

If your only point is that it can’t be changed because people honestly don’t want it changed, I’d say these forums, the number of Reddit threads, and the complaints in almost every other GW2 fan forum are a concrete example of how wrong you are.

No NO and NO

If you read what i said i never once said it cant be changed thats just you trying to fight a cause.

I say do not buy into it all cause if enough people do not then they will not continue down that path. The problem is the Must haves in our community as these are the people the devs are pandaring to. these people will spend vast amounts of money just to be the best and its no wonder devs start the process of progression in a way as to make money.

By all means give me something i can get but that differentiates me from everyone else but do not make it stronger and more powerful. I am on your side but i just honestly think your peeing in the wind, there are too many that will buy their way to the top.

Blame them

Oh and if you think the small amount of people who bother with these forums and reddit and all that bull is in any way a majority your wrong. I would stake my right nut on the fact there are more people happy with this than not. Personaly i came from WOW so that should tell you i have had enough already of the constand grinds but thats another story,

I cme here with a different agenda and that was i cannot and will not be bothered with these grindsand lests see what happens

(edited by Zorada.9457)

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Posted by: Tolmos.8395

Tolmos.8395

Why is level 80 better then 79? Cus +1. Who wants to be the best you can ever be one month after the game is out, and then just soak there for the next five years. Honestly, haven’t you folks played RPG’s? Didn’t it suck when you had nothing left to kill or get in FF7?

Most of us did play Guild Wars 1, which did exactly as you described. And ya know what? We loved it.

Not every game has to be WoW to be enjoyable.

Last time I checked GW1 was still active. I guess if all you want to do is play GW1 there are still servers around to do so? Didnt realise Anet promised GW2 was going to be GW1 with a glossy finish.

Well I wish I had been made aware before getting hyped up about it that GW2 was actually intended to by WoW with better graphics.

well considering GW2 is nothing like WoW in almost any respect you just acting like the sky is falling for the sake of it. Gotta love the uninformed garbage comments that just throw WoW around like it lends some weight to their stupid comments.

Look around in game. Where are the majority of players? Lions Arch, right? And why is this? Because they are getting a group to run a single instance over and over and over and over to get the latest greatest gear.

Nope, sounds nothing like WoW.

And once they get this tier of gear, we’ll be blessed with an expansion that will raise the level cap and make all of our gear obsolete!

Nope, still nothing like WoW. You are absolutely right.

Good thing this game is like Guild Wars where PvP is centered around guild battles and not just focused on 5-10 man battlegrounds or a single zone where “open world” PvP takes place like Wintergrasp… …. oh wait. >_>

Guild Wars 1: Stat plateau, BiS gear ASAP with grinding for looks only, expansions don’t add gear or levels so your character remains viable for all content in the game, guild battles

WoW: Stat progression, BiS gear takes unbelievable amount of grind, expansions add levels and start your gear grind from scratch so if you are away for a year you are no longer viable, no guild battles but rather small 5-10 man battlegrounds and a single zone for "open world’ PvP.

Which of those two sounds more like GW2?

(edited by Tolmos.8395)

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Posted by: Zhaneel.9208

Zhaneel.9208

I logged in recently after a few weeks hiatus but I just didn’t have the motivation to play for very long. Leveling up is fine, though it isn’t the same as GW1. But the fact that it’s so hard to get groups for dungeons except for CoF, CE, and possibly AC depresses me too much to keep playing for long. Hopefully these new updates will bring something fruitful but who knows. Since they’ve already promised to improve Fractals and continue to work on ascended gear I doubt the situation with dungeons will get much better unless they actually come through and make the rest of the game content relevant for players. I love exploring as much as the next person, but it’s irritating when you can’t find anyone to group with or have to wait so long hoping you might find people. What’s sad about that is this defeats the purpose of getting rid of the trinity in the first place. It was supposed to be easier to find groups, but because they decided to funnel all their care into vertical progression, the rest of the dungeons are so dead that only a scant few players care to run the other dungeons anymore.

A dungeon group finder may be an effective solution but we’ll have to wait and see. Hopefully these updates over the next two months will be fruitful somehow.

The only GW related item I’m interested in at the moment is the upcoming GW1 Canthan New Year celebration. I wish they’d make a reward system like the dailies in GW1 that provided incentive for players to run old content again.