Guild Wars 2

Leave it to me to create a title that begs to be flamed.

Look, GW2 is a different kind of MMO. The problem is that most of the people playing it are used to the MMO scene and there’s certain things we’ve come to expect. Working hard for better gear is one of those things. I’m a power and stat guy, which means I typically like to min-max, and I care much more about power and stats than appearance.

When I hit level 80, I had enough money within a week to get a full set of crafted exotics. From a power/stat perspective, I’m done. I have the ‘best’ gear in the game. This means there’s no real carrot for me to chase now. Yes, i could farm for legendaries or dungeon gear, but 1) legendary is WAY too big of a jump. Give me something to do in between now and then so I don’t lose focus, and 2) I haven’t seen a way to get cooler looking gear. Level 80 exotic weapons should not look like total crap, but my exotic scepter is a stick with a bulb on it. So much for “exotic”.

I know, I know, this is how it worked in GW1. you get the best gear soon and you just re-skin it. But guess what? GW1 wasn’t that popular. They did dungeons and scripted events really well, but otherwise could take a page from some of the MMO kings in the business.

So please Arenanet, I had a great time playing your game, but give me a reason to log in and grind. Right now I have 40g and absolutely nothing to spend it on. I can save up 100g for commander or 500+ for a legendary, but in a game where most people are scrounging to save 50 silver, I should feel rich with my 40g. Instead, I feel like I’ve bought everything worth buying and don’t quite have the motivation to farm for MONTHS before seeing something better.

Give me a way to slowly become more powerful please. I can’t keep playing a game purely for cosmetic enhancements and I suspect a large part of the community feels the same way.

A large part of the community doesn’t feel the same way, too. I can’t believe you said, “Give me a reason to log in and grind.” Ay yi yi.

what i dont get is…if you miss your gear grind, why did you leave it? it’s still there. in fact, in the case of wow, theres probably new gear to grind as of this week.

I think most people really got bored with the gear grind, stopped doing it and just don’t know how to fill the void.

If you need a reason to play, you don’t enjoy the content, you enjoy the reward.

If you like gear grind so much go play diablo 3 this game arent’ for you.There is more to the game then endless grind and wack a boss for stuff.Not everyone a OCD gear grinder.

There are tons of other games with the gear grind, why not try/play those. I just dont understand why so many people want to change this game to a gear grinder when there are already games that cater to that. Different games can be different and thats ok.

Moonpuncher.7250:

Leave it to me to create a title that begs to be flamed.

Look, GW2 is a different kind of MMO. The problem is that most of the people playing it are used to the MMO scene and there’s certain things we’ve come to expect. Working hard for better gear is one of those things. I’m a power and stat guy, which means I typically like to min-max, and I care much more about power and stats than appearance.

When I hit level 80, I had enough money within a week to get a full set of crafted exotics. From a power/stat perspective, I’m done. I have the ‘best’ gear in the game. This means there’s no real carrot for me to chase now. Yes, i could farm for legendaries or dungeon gear, but 1) legendary is WAY too big of a jump. Give me something to do in between now and then so I don’t lose focus, and 2) I haven’t seen a way to get cooler looking gear. Level 80 exotic weapons should not look like total crap, but my exotic scepter is a stick with a bulb on it. So much for “exotic”.

I know, I know, this is how it worked in GW1. you get the best gear soon and you just re-skin it. But guess what? GW1 wasn’t that popular. They did dungeons and scripted events really well, but otherwise could take a page from some of the MMO kings in the business.

So please Arenanet, I had a great time playing your game, but give me a reason to log in and grind. Right now I have 40g and absolutely nothing to spend it on. I can save up 100g for commander or 500+ for a legendary, but in a game where most people are scrounging to save 50 silver, I should feel rich with my 40g. Instead, I feel like I’ve bought everything worth buying and don’t quite have the motivation to farm for MONTHS before seeing something better.

Give me a way to slowly become more powerful please. I can’t keep playing a game purely for cosmetic enhancements and I suspect a large part of the community feels the same way.

I’ve put in bold font a sentence up there…isn’t that the definition of a grind? Repeating the same content for months to get gear?

Playing baseball, I miss golf.

The idea is that you already have the max stats possible, maybe you can modify your set with different runes, gems, etc. you just have to worry on getting cool gear. and yes you have a lot of grind to do if for example you want a legendary weapon or the full set of a specific dungeon. you will grind but not for stats, just for the appearance

Seriously? Why would you even bother with this post? Obvious troll post is obvious. This game has said there would be no gear grind consistently over the past 5 years. If you bought it expecting there to be a gear grind that’s your own fault, man. The whole premise of this game is to be different. Why would a different game strive to do the same crap all the other MMOs on the market are doing? That would literally negate the entire point of being different. This thread is pointless and should really be deleted or locked…

If you had done research about the game before buying it, you’d have known prior to playing that this game doesn’t have a standard gear treadmill, and that’s not likely to change. If you like the gear grind, you’re playing the wrong game. Simple as that.

theerrantventure.9185:

Moonpuncher.7250:

Leave it to me to create a title that begs to be flamed.

Look, GW2 is a different kind of MMO. The problem is that most of the people playing it are used to the MMO scene and there’s certain things we’ve come to expect. Working hard for better gear is one of those things. I’m a power and stat guy, which means I typically like to min-max, and I care much more about power and stats than appearance.

When I hit level 80, I had enough money within a week to get a full set of crafted exotics. From a power/stat perspective, I’m done. I have the ‘best’ gear in the game. This means there’s no real carrot for me to chase now. Yes, i could farm for legendaries or dungeon gear, but 1) legendary is WAY too big of a jump. Give me something to do in between now and then so I don’t lose focus, and 2) I haven’t seen a way to get cooler looking gear. Level 80 exotic weapons should not look like total crap, but my exotic scepter is a stick with a bulb on it. So much for “exotic”.

I know, I know, this is how it worked in GW1. you get the best gear soon and you just re-skin it. But guess what? GW1 wasn’t that popular. They did dungeons and scripted events really well, but otherwise could take a page from some of the MMO kings in the business.

So please Arenanet, I had a great time playing your game, but give me a reason to log in and grind. Right now I have 40g and absolutely nothing to spend it on. I can save up 100g for commander or 500+ for a legendary, but in a game where most people are scrounging to save 50 silver, I should feel rich with my 40g. Instead, I feel like I’ve bought everything worth buying and don’t quite have the motivation to farm for MONTHS before seeing something better.

Give me a way to slowly become more powerful please. I can’t keep playing a game purely for cosmetic enhancements and I suspect a large part of the community feels the same way.

I’ve put in bold font a sentence up there…isn’t that the definition of a grind? Repeating the same content for months to get gear?

“grind” has garnered too much negativity these days. Putting in some work to get a reward is a great idea in games. I’m talking about motivation here. If I need to log in and farm up some dungeons for a week or two to get some great gear, sign me up. But legendary weapons seem to be the only decent thing to shoot for in this game, and right now that grind could take MONTHS with absolutely no return on my investment. I want some shorter term rewards. I want stat bonuses, or some type of quality of life change. I should not need at least 90g before i can see a neat animation on my weapon. Right now, everything (even legendary precursors) looks plain, like something you can buy off of a vendor.

I’m not using the term “grind” negatively. I am, however, using the phrase “grind for months and months with nothing to show for it during the process” negatively.

This thread is funny…

I love the “why dont you go back to wow” posts (because lets face it, that’s what you’re really saying).

My response is simple: if I’m feeling a void here and ArenaNet doesn’t find a way to fill it, that’s exactly what me and many, many other people might do. I think “dont like it? then leave” is a poor response to concerns like this. And I’m quite certain ArenaNet would like to figure out a better resolution than “just quit the game”.

So let’s keep the conversation productive instead of trying to get me to leave the game

Also lol @ all the anger just because I like having a reason to log in. If there were more to do in Tyria, you would probably be playing instead of jumping on my every word in a forum/

Maybe we can approach this topic in a way that will make you all rage a little less: What should I do with my 40 gold right now? Because from what i can tell, you buy exotics for about 2-3g each, and then you’re completely done with money until you get hundreds. What’s the point? Where’s the stuff to buy in BETWEEN 2g and 500g?

Right now I feel “rich” when I say I have 40g and most people are scrounging for 50 silver. But there’s nothing to buy with it unless I want an exotic with a neat name from the trading post and same stats/very similar appearance (check the exotics on the TP for under 50g. Most of them are just a stick or sword, same as anything else).

Moonpuncher.7250:

I love the “why dont you go back to wow” posts (because lets face it, that’s what you’re really saying).

My response is simple: if I’m feeling a void here and ArenaNet doesn’t find a way to fill it, that’s exactly what me and many, many other people might do. I think “dont like it? then leave” is a poor response to concerns like this. And I’m quite certain ArenaNet would like to figure out a better resolution than “just quit the game”.

So let’s keep the conversation productive instead of trying to get me to leave the game

No, dude. You’re not listening. What we’re saying is that from day one this game has ADVERTISED itself as not having a gear treadmill or a grind to get the best gear in the game. This game has been advertised for 5 years that skill will be the determining factor and that, because of that, there will be no grinding for the gear with the best stats. You bought the game expected exactly the opposite of what they told you it would be. They are not going to change it as it would negate their entire design.

If anyone is saying go to WoW it’s only because that game is catered for people like you, that enjoy the gear grind. It’s not an insult, it’s just pointing out that this game does not, and will not, have that. So in that case, WoW or Rift or ToR are all better choices for you. Here, the only gear grind is for vanity gear. You grind for the gear that has the appearance you like, not the stats. And again, that has been advertised since the beginning. If you didn’t get that, that’s your own fault.

The problem here is i hate gear grind. i came to this game specifically for the fact there is no gear grind. i also like taking part in dungeon. gear grind will kill this game for me.

Moonpuncher.7250:

I love the “why dont you go back to wow” posts (because lets face it, that’s what you’re really saying).

My response is simple: if I’m feeling a void here and ArenaNet doesn’t find a way to fill it, that’s exactly what me and many, many other people might do. I think “dont like it? then leave” is a poor response to concerns like this. And I’m quite certain ArenaNet would like to figure out a better resolution than “just quit the game”.

So let’s keep the conversation productive instead of trying to get me to leave the game

but this is the problem. you miss the gear grind. I hated it in wow. stopped playingmy toon as soon as he hit 80. didnt like the pvp and raids because of the gear grind requirement. GW1 didn’t have it, and that’s why it was my game of choice.

either they add a gear grind to keep the interest of players who can get that fix elswhere but allienate everyone else.

they add a gear grind, you’re happy, i’m sad.
they don’t add a gear grind, I’m happy, your sad.

the difference is. you can go back to wow for your gear grind. Those of us who do like the GW moddel don’t have that option.

How would the WoW forums respond if they suddenly became full of ex GWplayers saying “I hate the gear grind. I want max stats at 80 so everyone is equal for pvp”

Bet all the wow players would call me out and tell me to go back to GW.

Souldonkey, (awesome name by the way) I can see how that might make me sound a little stupid.

So let me switch gears to a softer point. Fine, I need to give up the power creep. But even after that, I’ve noticed unless you spend upwards of 80g on a weapon, you can’t expect your gear to look much cooler at all (keep in mind I’m an asura cloth wearer). So where’s the carrot? Is it the case that once I hit this lvl 80/exotic content wall I should just log off until an expansion comes out? Yes yes, I know there’s stuff to do. But in the interests of IMPROVING my character (MMOs have always been about improvement, and you aren’t going to change people’s expectations here). I see how warriors are pumped about getting dungeon sets since they get to be spiky and dangerous-looking, but my little asura guy could buy a 90G legendary precursor tomorrow and it’s still just a stick with a jewel on the end of it.

So why is there almost nothing in between “legendary” and “bottom barrel crafted exotic”?

Moonpuncher.7250:

Give me something to do in between now and then so I don’t lose focus

.

Yes. More carrots to chase are good things.

Moonpuncher.7250:

Give me a way to slowly become more powerful please.

No. Ever escalating power is a bad thing, and completely anathema to the game’s current design.

Moonpuncher.7250:

theerrantventure.9185:

Moonpuncher.7250:

Leave it to me to create a title that begs to be flamed.

Look, GW2 is a different kind of MMO. The problem is that most of the people playing it are used to the MMO scene and there’s certain things we’ve come to expect. Working hard for better gear is one of those things. I’m a power and stat guy, which means I typically like to min-max, and I care much more about power and stats than appearance.

When I hit level 80, I had enough money within a week to get a full set of crafted exotics. From a power/stat perspective, I’m done. I have the ‘best’ gear in the game. This means there’s no real carrot for me to chase now. Yes, i could farm for legendaries or dungeon gear, but 1) legendary is WAY too big of a jump. Give me something to do in between now and then so I don’t lose focus, and 2) I haven’t seen a way to get cooler looking gear. Level 80 exotic weapons should not look like total crap, but my exotic scepter is a stick with a bulb on it. So much for “exotic”.

I know, I know, this is how it worked in GW1. you get the best gear soon and you just re-skin it. But guess what? GW1 wasn’t that popular. They did dungeons and scripted events really well, but otherwise could take a page from some of the MMO kings in the business.

So please Arenanet, I had a great time playing your game, but give me a reason to log in and grind. Right now I have 40g and absolutely nothing to spend it on. I can save up 100g for commander or 500+ for a legendary, but in a game where most people are scrounging to save 50 silver, I should feel rich with my 40g. Instead, I feel like I’ve bought everything worth buying and don’t quite have the motivation to farm for MONTHS before seeing something better.

Give me a way to slowly become more powerful please. I can’t keep playing a game purely for cosmetic enhancements and I suspect a large part of the community feels the same way.

I’ve put in bold font a sentence up there…isn’t that the definition of a grind? Repeating the same content for months to get gear?

“grind” has garnered too much negativity these days. Putting in some work to get a reward is a great idea in games. I’m talking about motivation here. If I need to log in and farm up some dungeons for a week or two to get some great gear, sign me up. But legendary weapons seem to be the only decent thing to shoot for in this game, and right now that grind could take MONTHS with absolutely no return on my investment. I want some shorter term rewards. I want stat bonuses, or some type of quality of life change. I should not need at least 90g before i can see a neat animation on my weapon. Right now, everything (even legendary precursors) looks plain, like something you can buy off of a vendor.

I’m not using the term “grind” negatively. I am, however, using the phrase “grind for months and months with nothing to show for it during the process” negatively.

Ahh ok. I misinterpreted the intent then. I do understand the need for motivation to log in. I think ANet is having to walk a fine line in trying to please all play styles. Right now the end game content is ‘light’ by industry standards insofar as group content and gear go. I have faith that ANet will correct that with upcoming content patches.

All I can say is keep playing! Content will come in time.

jebidiah ubershiet.2580:

Moonpuncher.7250:

I love the “why dont you go back to wow” posts (because lets face it, that’s what you’re really saying).

My response is simple: if I’m feeling a void here and ArenaNet doesn’t find a way to fill it, that’s exactly what me and many, many other people might do. I think “dont like it? then leave” is a poor response to concerns like this. And I’m quite certain ArenaNet would like to figure out a better resolution than “just quit the game”.

So let’s keep the conversation productive instead of trying to get me to leave the game

but this is the problem. you miss the gear grind. I hated it in wow. stopped playingmy toon as soon as he hit 80. didnt like the pvp and raids because of the gear grind requirement. GW1 didn’t have it, and that’s why it was my game of choice.

either they add a gear grind to keep the interest of players who can get that fix elswhere but allienate everyone else.

they add a gear grind, you’re happy, i’m sad.
they don’t add a gear grind, I’m happy, your sad.

the difference is. you can go back to wow for your gear grind. Those of us who do like the GW moddel don’t have that option.

How would the WoW forums respond if they suddenly became full of ex GWplayers saying “I hate the gear grind. I want max stats at 80 so everyone is equal for pvp”

Bet all the wow players would call me out and tell me to go back to GW.

I think you and i could benefit from some term clarification. It SOUNDS like you hate the “gear grind” because it becomes a requirement to have good gear. I agree that gets annoying. In WoW you can’t leave your character sitting for two months without his gear becoming trash.

So that kind of gear grinding would make you very unhappy.

But would it be so bad if there were ways to get slightly better stats or sigils? Maybe dungeon tokens get someone a cooler rune set for armor that offers something unique? Maybe a way to unlock more skills? You can still do dungeons and questing and WvW just fine with exotic gear, but i’d certainly like something in exchange for logging in and earning gold. Right now I’m finding money a little useless (this is music to your ears if you dont have a lot of time to play, but I’ve been farming and have nothing to spend it on)

I’m sure A.Net will create more content in time. Just forget the gear grind you are used to. It won’t ever have place here, unless you find grinding for vanity as rewarding as grinding for power. In this game, be patient!

You won’t pay monthly fees here, just take a break and come back after a while…

Have fun!

theerrantventure.9185:

Moonpuncher.7250:

theerrantventure.9185:

Moonpuncher.7250:

Leave it to me to create a title that begs to be flamed.

Look, GW2 is a different kind of MMO. The problem is that most of the people playing it are used to the MMO scene and there’s certain things we’ve come to expect. Working hard for better gear is one of those things. I’m a power and stat guy, which means I typically like to min-max, and I care much more about power and stats than appearance.

When I hit level 80, I had enough money within a week to get a full set of crafted exotics. From a power/stat perspective, I’m done. I have the ‘best’ gear in the game. This means there’s no real carrot for me to chase now. Yes, i could farm for legendaries or dungeon gear, but 1) legendary is WAY too big of a jump. Give me something to do in between now and then so I don’t lose focus, and 2) I haven’t seen a way to get cooler looking gear. Level 80 exotic weapons should not look like total crap, but my exotic scepter is a stick with a bulb on it. So much for “exotic”.

I know, I know, this is how it worked in GW1. you get the best gear soon and you just re-skin it. But guess what? GW1 wasn’t that popular. They did dungeons and scripted events really well, but otherwise could take a page from some of the MMO kings in the business.

So please Arenanet, I had a great time playing your game, but give me a reason to log in and grind. Right now I have 40g and absolutely nothing to spend it on. I can save up 100g for commander or 500+ for a legendary, but in a game where most people are scrounging to save 50 silver, I should feel rich with my 40g. Instead, I feel like I’ve bought everything worth buying and don’t quite have the motivation to farm for MONTHS before seeing something better.

Give me a way to slowly become more powerful please. I can’t keep playing a game purely for cosmetic enhancements and I suspect a large part of the community feels the same way.

I’ve put in bold font a sentence up there…isn’t that the definition of a grind? Repeating the same content for months to get gear?

“grind” has garnered too much negativity these days. Putting in some work to get a reward is a great idea in games. I’m talking about motivation here. If I need to log in and farm up some dungeons for a week or two to get some great gear, sign me up. But legendary weapons seem to be the only decent thing to shoot for in this game, and right now that grind could take MONTHS with absolutely no return on my investment. I want some shorter term rewards. I want stat bonuses, or some type of quality of life change. I should not need at least 90g before i can see a neat animation on my weapon. Right now, everything (even legendary precursors) looks plain, like something you can buy off of a vendor.

I’m not using the term “grind” negatively. I am, however, using the phrase “grind for months and months with nothing to show for it during the process” negatively.

Ahh ok. I misinterpreted the intent then. I do understand the need for motivation to log in. I think ANet is having to walk a fine line in trying to please all play styles. Right now the end game content is ‘light’ by industry standards insofar as group content and gear go. I have faith that ANet will correct that with upcoming content patches.

All I can say is keep playing! Content will come in time.

I trust them to deliver content> i really do. And they’re the ONLY game i’ve ever played (my list of MMOs is exhaustive!) where I found questing to be interesting and fun.

I just don’t quite know what to do. I am actively trying to train myself out of WoW mode (i havent played wow in over a year, but face it guys this game IS an MMO and with that come expectations and habits that can be tough to break). It does many things well, but they need many more WvW and sPVP features if they want to replace chasing gear and buying crazy lightsaber weapons.

This is actually a good time to take an introspective of why you play games.

We know the whole concept of the gear grind in a MMO is engineered to develop an addiction. If you find yourself without a drive to play the game without having those grinds, it is likely you never really enjoyed the MMO Genre, but rather just the small constant reward mechanisms.

I can walk into sPvP or WvW for no reason other than to test myself against others. My SO spends hours walking around taking screenshots.

Moonpuncher.7250:

jebidiah ubershiet.2580:

Moonpuncher.7250:

I love the “why dont you go back to wow” posts (because lets face it, that’s what you’re really saying).

My response is simple: if I’m feeling a void here and ArenaNet doesn’t find a way to fill it, that’s exactly what me and many, many other people might do. I think “dont like it? then leave” is a poor response to concerns like this. And I’m quite certain ArenaNet would like to figure out a better resolution than “just quit the game”.

So let’s keep the conversation productive instead of trying to get me to leave the game

but this is the problem. you miss the gear grind. I hated it in wow. stopped playingmy toon as soon as he hit 80. didnt like the pvp and raids because of the gear grind requirement. GW1 didn’t have it, and that’s why it was my game of choice.

either they add a gear grind to keep the interest of players who can get that fix elswhere but allienate everyone else.

they add a gear grind, you’re happy, i’m sad.
they don’t add a gear grind, I’m happy, your sad.

the difference is. you can go back to wow for your gear grind. Those of us who do like the GW moddel don’t have that option.

How would the WoW forums respond if they suddenly became full of ex GWplayers saying “I hate the gear grind. I want max stats at 80 so everyone is equal for pvp”

Bet all the wow players would call me out and tell me to go back to GW.

I think you and i could benefit from some term clarification. It SOUNDS like you hate the “gear grind” because it becomes a requirement to have good gear. I agree that gets annoying. In WoW you can’t leave your character sitting for two months without his gear becoming trash.

So that kind of gear grinding would make you very unhappy.

But would it be so bad if there were ways to get slightly better stats or sigils? Maybe dungeon tokens get someone a cooler rune set for armor that offers something unique? Maybe a way to unlock more skills? You can still do dungeons and questing and WvW just fine with exotic gear, but i’d certainly like something in exchange for logging in and earning gold. Right now I’m finding money a little useless (this is music to your ears if you dont have a lot of time to play, but I’ve been farming and have nothing to spend it on)

i can agree with unique. but i dont know if i agree with slightly better? do you have any examples you can chuck out here

Hmm is it gradual increase in power you’re after?, it begs the question though, to what end? This game seems to favor people being relatively even at top end.

I personally feel it’s up to me to find fun with the game presented before me; craft, explore, RP (shut-up), look for secrets, 100% complete everything.. If I get bored I’ll simply do something else.
I’m sorry that your personal goals were already so quickly achieved. I’m not sure what to offer you. (not being sarcastic) Maybe see what they push out in a few months.

Moonpuncher.7250:

jebidiah ubershiet.2580:

Moonpuncher.7250:

I love the “why dont you go back to wow” posts (because lets face it, that’s what you’re really saying).

My response is simple: if I’m feeling a void here and ArenaNet doesn’t find a way to fill it, that’s exactly what me and many, many other people might do. I think “dont like it? then leave” is a poor response to concerns like this. And I’m quite certain ArenaNet would like to figure out a better resolution than “just quit the game”.

So let’s keep the conversation productive instead of trying to get me to leave the game

but this is the problem. you miss the gear grind. I hated it in wow. stopped playingmy toon as soon as he hit 80. didnt like the pvp and raids because of the gear grind requirement. GW1 didn’t have it, and that’s why it was my game of choice.

either they add a gear grind to keep the interest of players who can get that fix elswhere but allienate everyone else.

they add a gear grind, you’re happy, i’m sad.
they don’t add a gear grind, I’m happy, your sad.

the difference is. you can go back to wow for your gear grind. Those of us who do like the GW moddel don’t have that option.

How would the WoW forums respond if they suddenly became full of ex GWplayers saying “I hate the gear grind. I want max stats at 80 so everyone is equal for pvp”

Bet all the wow players would call me out and tell me to go back to GW.

I think you and i could benefit from some term clarification. It SOUNDS like you hate the “gear grind” because it becomes a requirement to have good gear. I agree that gets annoying. In WoW you can’t leave your character sitting for two months without his gear becoming trash.

So that kind of gear grinding would make you very unhappy.

But would it be so bad if there were ways to get slightly better stats or sigils? Maybe dungeon tokens get someone a cooler rune set for armor that offers something unique? Maybe a way to unlock more skills? You can still do dungeons and questing and WvW just fine with exotic gear, but i’d certainly like something in exchange for logging in and earning gold. Right now I’m finding money a little useless (this is music to your ears if you dont have a lot of time to play, but I’ve been farming and have nothing to spend it on)

I’m glad you clarified. There’s more content planned. Really. Until it comes, you’ll have to find a way to keep busy, here or elsewhere.

Dwok Immortalus.2763:

This is actually a good time to take an introspective of why you play games.

We know the whole concept of the gear grind in a MMO is engineered to develop an addiction. If you find yourself without a drive to play the game without having those grinds, it is likely you never really enjoyed the MMO Genre, but rather just the small constant reward mechanisms.

I can walk into sPvP or WvW for no reason other than to test myself against others. My SO spends hours walking around taking screenshots.

Very well-stated. I, for one, think the “grind” isn’t such a terrible thing unless it gets out of hand. The MMO that shall not be named is a huge example of this. Often times I’d log in, and have over 2 hours of MANDATORY activities (gotta do your dailies bro, omg did you get the battleground of the day? Gotta gather all your nodes!). That felt like a second job and I hated it.

I don’t think that hatred translates to “I never wanna work for things in games”. Stat bonuses and more powerful gear is the #1 thing I’m happy to put in extra work for. And the problem right now is I think ArenaNet did away with that but didn’t necessarily replace it with anything. They said “oh you can reskin it with more awesome gear”. But right now I’m not really seeing more awesome gear. Dungeon sets look different for cloth wearers, but not necessarily better. Certainly not worth hours and hours of grind just so my robe looks a LITTLE neater. Legendaries on the other hand are an unfathomable level of grinding. I feel like it’s a little outrageous that i have to go through that much effort to finally find something that looks neater.

Ok, you got your games with gear grind.
We get a game without gear grind.

People who like gear grind can play the games with gear grind, and be happy.
People who don’t like gear grind can play this game without gear grind and be happy.

Win / Win

darkehawke.1269:

Moonpuncher.7250:

jebidiah ubershiet.2580:

Moonpuncher.7250:

I love the “why dont you go back to wow” posts (because lets face it, that’s what you’re really saying).

My response is simple: if I’m feeling a void here and ArenaNet doesn’t find a way to fill it, that’s exactly what me and many, many other people might do. I think “dont like it? then leave” is a poor response to concerns like this. And I’m quite certain ArenaNet would like to figure out a better resolution than “just quit the game”.

So let’s keep the conversation productive instead of trying to get me to leave the game

but this is the problem. you miss the gear grind. I hated it in wow. stopped playingmy toon as soon as he hit 80. didnt like the pvp and raids because of the gear grind requirement. GW1 didn’t have it, and that’s why it was my game of choice.

either they add a gear grind to keep the interest of players who can get that fix elswhere but allienate everyone else.

they add a gear grind, you’re happy, i’m sad.
they don’t add a gear grind, I’m happy, your sad.

the difference is. you can go back to wow for your gear grind. Those of us who do like the GW moddel don’t have that option.

How would the WoW forums respond if they suddenly became full of ex GWplayers saying “I hate the gear grind. I want max stats at 80 so everyone is equal for pvp”

Bet all the wow players would call me out and tell me to go back to GW.

I think you and i could benefit from some term clarification. It SOUNDS like you hate the “gear grind” because it becomes a requirement to have good gear. I agree that gets annoying. In WoW you can’t leave your character sitting for two months without his gear becoming trash.

So that kind of gear grinding would make you very unhappy.

But would it be so bad if there were ways to get slightly better stats or sigils? Maybe dungeon tokens get someone a cooler rune set for armor that offers something unique? Maybe a way to unlock more skills? You can still do dungeons and questing and WvW just fine with exotic gear, but i’d certainly like something in exchange for logging in and earning gold. Right now I’m finding money a little useless (this is music to your ears if you dont have a lot of time to play, but I’ve been farming and have nothing to spend it on)

i can agree with unique. but i dont know if i agree with slightly better? do you have any examples you can chuck out here

I’m waffling because I’m not even 100% certain what I want here. I do know I want “something” to chase.

Let’s drop the pretense and straight-up talk about WoW. Let’s pretend there’s no power difference between lvl 80 “greens” and level 80 “purples”. Still, a level 80 green staff looks like a stick with a ball on it. Levle 80 blue has a few neat designs on it. Epics have all the fun crazy glowing stuff, and there are several “levels” of crazy here. And legendary are true gems that people can spot a mile away.

Regardless of how you feel about this art style, the thing I like about this is the gradients. I flipped through the trading post in GW2 and found that an exotic dagger selling for 50g looked as plain and boring as a crafted exotic or one from a vendor. So that tells me “just buy all crafted stuff. It’s cheapest, lets you customize stats, and all this crap looks the same anyway”. Now I have the ‘best’ gear in the game, and almost nothing to look forward to visually unless i want to farm for a legendary which takes months and months of grinding. Myself, and many other players, are going to need a LITTLE something to hold us over until then.

(Snipped out the full quote body as it made the post to long.)

It is a big change coming from games like WoW and STWOR, both of which I’ve played. I’ve been out of WoW almost 2 years now. We all have what marketers call an “anchor.” This product anchor is a preconceived notion and expectation of how all products in a certain field should be the same. We take these anchors with us from place to place. In terms of MMOs, we take certain concepts such as the ‘Holy Trinity’ of class archetypes and gear/content progression with us from game to game.

ANet is attempting to severe those particular two anchors by offering a different profession system and content ladder. As my main character isn’t quite 80 yet I am not yet able to fully relate to the lament of the 80s seeking something more to do.

The community of this game is amazing and I’d like not to lose lots of people from lack of interest. I think ANet knows this and will place endgame status right behind removal of launch bugs.

GW2 was not meant to be played for 100 hours a week.
That said. I do agree that they need more content for lvl 80 people. Legendary is too far a leap. They should just make different tiers of Legendary and let people get them one by one.
Also sPvP is a mess right now. There is no real form of competition, so no motivation for people to keep playing. They should just bring back GW1’s RA/TA/HoH format if they cant come up with something better.
Duel, GvG and personal/team/Guild ladders are certainly things that needs to be implanted as soon as possible in order to keep the PvP crowd around.

Moonpuncher.7250:

theerrantventure.9185:

Moonpuncher.7250:

theerrantventure.9185:

Moonpuncher.7250:

Leave it to me to create a title that begs to be flamed.

Look, GW2 is a different kind of MMO. The problem is that most of the people playing it are used to the MMO scene and there’s certain things we’ve come to expect. Working hard for better gear is one of those things. I’m a power and stat guy, which means I typically like to min-max, and I care much more about power and stats than appearance.

When I hit level 80, I had enough money within a week to get a full set of crafted exotics. From a power/stat perspective, I’m done. I have the ‘best’ gear in the game. This means there’s no real carrot for me to chase now. Yes, i could farm for legendaries or dungeon gear, but 1) legendary is WAY too big of a jump. Give me something to do in between now and then so I don’t lose focus, and 2) I haven’t seen a way to get cooler looking gear. Level 80 exotic weapons should not look like total crap, but my exotic scepter is a stick with a bulb on it. So much for “exotic”.

I know, I know, this is how it worked in GW1. you get the best gear soon and you just re-skin it. But guess what? GW1 wasn’t that popular. They did dungeons and scripted events really well, but otherwise could take a page from some of the MMO kings in the business.

So please Arenanet, I had a great time playing your game, but give me a reason to log in and grind. Right now I have 40g and absolutely nothing to spend it on. I can save up 100g for commander or 500+ for a legendary, but in a game where most people are scrounging to save 50 silver, I should feel rich with my 40g. Instead, I feel like I’ve bought everything worth buying and don’t quite have the motivation to farm for MONTHS before seeing something better.

Give me a way to slowly become more powerful please. I can’t keep playing a game purely for cosmetic enhancements and I suspect a large part of the community feels the same way.

I’ve put in bold font a sentence up there…isn’t that the definition of a grind? Repeating the same content for months to get gear?

“grind” has garnered too much negativity these days. Putting in some work to get a reward is a great idea in games. I’m talking about motivation here. If I need to log in and farm up some dungeons for a week or two to get some great gear, sign me up. But legendary weapons seem to be the only decent thing to shoot for in this game, and right now that grind could take MONTHS with absolutely no return on my investment. I want some shorter term rewards. I want stat bonuses, or some type of quality of life change. I should not need at least 90g before i can see a neat animation on my weapon. Right now, everything (even legendary precursors) looks plain, like something you can buy off of a vendor.

I’m not using the term “grind” negatively. I am, however, using the phrase “grind for months and months with nothing to show for it during the process” negatively.

Ahh ok. I misinterpreted the intent then. I do understand the need for motivation to log in. I think ANet is having to walk a fine line in trying to please all play styles. Right now the end game content is ‘light’ by industry standards insofar as group content and gear go. I have faith that ANet will correct that with upcoming content patches.

All I can say is keep playing! Content will come in time.

I trust them to deliver content> i really do. And they’re the ONLY game i’ve ever played (my list of MMOs is exhaustive!) where I found questing to be interesting and fun.

I just don’t quite know what to do. I am actively trying to train myself out of WoW mode (i havent played wow in over a year, but face it guys this game IS an MMO and with that come expectations and habits that can be tough to break). It does many things well, but they need many more WvW and sPVP features if they want to replace chasing gear and buying crazy lightsaber weapons.

Moonpuncher.7250:

But would it be so bad if there were ways to get slightly better stats or sigils?

Yes, it would be. This game is built on the idea that everyone is equal in terms of stats and that skill is the determining factor. If you want to grind, you can grind for cosmetic items.

Right now, most of us that were attracted to this game don’t like the gear grind from other games. I like that everyone is equal stat wise. I like that I don’t have to grind constantly for gear to compete. I like that there is such a big emphasis on the look because I love the fashiony side of things.

If I had to grind for gear that gave me better stats I’d be out of here before you could say “Goodbye”. If people had a way of getting better stats than me, I’d be outta here.

As for content, I think there is a ton of content. In fact there’s so much content I will be busy for a very long time with this game and I love that. I love that I can earn a set of gear and be done with it after that and can be free to just enjoy whatever aspect of the game I want.

You are wrong in that MMO’s are about progressing your character – if you feel the need to constantly work on something for a reward, than you do not enjoy the game you are playing. Games are about enjoying the content and having fun. Don’t “grind” anything, just do whatever you enjoy doing and you’ll get rewards for it and have plenty to spend money on. If you feel like there’s not enough content, than you don’t enjoy the game, no harm in that.

If you want to grind something, there is plenty to work for. But don’t turn this into every other game on the market because those are the games many of us fled and never ever want to see again. If you want your traditional MMO go play WoW, TOR, RIFT. If you really love grind go play Aion or TERA, you’ll never be done the grind and you’ll never have extra gold lying around. If you like the action combat feel you have TERA and TSW.

But GW2 is great as is and was very clearly advertised to be what it is, so either love it or leave it.

GW1 second best selling mmorpg of all time is not very popular? hmm guess i missed something in my first grade math

“Right now, most of us that were attracted to this game don’t like the gear grind from other games.”

I can emphatically state that this is probably false. Be careful when you use the word “most”. Just because you feel strongly about it doesn’t mean more than 50% of people who play this game feel the same way. I bet this game attracted many people who don’t like gear grinding. I also bet people who SAY they don’t like it will still feel an empty hole where it used to be and get a little bored.

But most importantly, I’m curious how this will ruin your play experience. See, I was careful to say “slightly better stats or sigils”, to which you automatically assume you will get left behind if you don’t have the best gear. But you can still clear a dungeon just fine with your exotic gear. Maybe my gear offers me more flexibility in sigils and runes? Maybe I get an extra 20 power. The reason WoW and other games have a detestable gear grind is because if your “gear score” isnt high enough, you’d either fail at a dungeon or raid, or couldn’t even participate in it. THAT’s what people hate, I suspect. I don’t think people hate getting better gear. They simply don’t like being locked out of content because their gear is inadequate.

Legendaries would like a word with you.

This game is for casual’s not anyone actually concerned with prestige or competitive online play.

The game requires no skill, and does not reward players for being skillful.

That is why it go away quietly in the night. I think if we actually did have accurate data on MMO players, it would reflect:

MMO players like being able to become more powerful than other players based on the time and energy they put into the game.
MMO players like being able to highlight their individual skill in competitive contest
MMO players don’t mind a grind, it if provides a means to be more competitive.

probably way more to this list, where Gw2 totally missed the mark.

Yeah 80g seems about right for a vanity item. I don’t know if you ever played GW1 but even that game was all about getting the coolest looking gear and not the best stats. Getting gear with the best stats at 20 (GW1’s level cap) was relatively inexpensive and easy. It wasn’t cheap, but it wouldn’t break the bank either. The more prestigous armors however, the 15k sets, Vabbian, Obsidan. All of these were expensive as hell. The 15k sets were 15k per piece.

Example:

Warrior Prestige or “elite” armor, bought only for it’s appearance: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Warrior_Elite_Platemail_armor

75k (equal to 75g in GW2), plus 400 iron ingots (common crafting material) and 40 deldrimor steel (uncommon crafting material).

If you didn’t have the mats that would easily be 90-100k total in mat costs + crafting costs. That’s 90-100g in GW2. It’s the same basic design as it has always been.

And for the really prestigious sets:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Elementalist_Vabbian_armor

25k total (25g in GW2) plus very very rare mats. You could spend weeks to months grinding for those mats or spend a ton of gold to buy them. I think before the economy crapped because of the HoM rush those mats would run you roughly 200k if you bought all of them. So that’s 225k for one set of prestige armor. Obsidan wasn’t much less than that either.

Hope that helps understand Anet’s motives a bit. And as far as it goes, I’d rather have to grind for tokens knowing that I’ll get the gear pieces I want with those tokens, rather than grind dungeons with an RNG and hope I get the piece I want. I know how many dungeon runs it will take to get the amount of tokens I need. Once I have the tokens I can buy the gear I want with them. I once ran a dungeon 37 times in WoW just for 1 piece of gear. In those 37 runs that piece dropped twice. The first time I lost the roll so I had to keep running it and hope it would drop. For me, that is not fun. This is.

Moonpuncher.7250:

I also bet people who SAY they don’t like it will still feel an empty hole where it used to be and get a little bored.

The reason WoW and other games have a detestable gear grind is because if your “gear score” isnt high enough, you’d either fail at a dungeon or raid, or couldn’t even participate in it. THAT’s what people hate, I suspect. I don’t think people hate getting better gear. They simply don’t like being locked out of content because their gear is inadequate.

Firstly, no I don’t think so. There is plenty to grind for in this game and we already have people saying it’s too much and needs to be nerfed in all forms of play. There’s no shortage of stuff to work for and stuff to do. You may feel one way, but it’s pretty clear the majority don’t agree.

On the second part, no, that’s not why I dislike grind and I know at least some people feel the same as me. We want to simply enjoy the game. Having a new, better set of gear means I’m not done yet. I want to be done. I don’t enjoy the grind and I don’t enjoy anyone having any advantage, slight or otherwise, over me stat wise. I just wanna log in and do whatever the kitten I feel like and if there is a set of gear I need to grind, than I am not free to do whatever the kitten I want. So I’ll spend who knows how much time and money doing something I don’t want to do, so I can be a) on par with everyone else and b)done with my toon.

So GW2 is perfect for those reasons. I don’t have to worry about competing stat wise with people so I can just relax and have fun. And I don’t have to worry about my character not being “done”. If I want to progress in some way I can, but I don’t have to.

You’ve been brainwashed OP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber

This is what MMO company’s have done to you. Read it, understand that you’ve been conditioned to believe that gradual, small incremental rewards are fun.

^^

Truth.

I was looking at RIFT’s new expansion yesterday.
It looks pretty cool, but then something hit me.
I haven’t played in like a year, my gear is SO underleveled.

So yeah, not buying it. Gear grind lost them a sale.

It’s funny, without the grind, the content would be the same though.

Omega.5682:

MMO players like being able to become more powerful than other players based on the time and energy they put into the game.

Omega.5682:

MMO players like being able to highlight their individual skill in competitive contest

One of those things is completely incompatible with the other.

People like A, because they specifically do NOT like competitive contests. They like contests in which they have an advantage.

souldonkey.9534:

Hope that helps understand Anet’s motives a bit. And as far as it goes, I’d rather have to grind for tokens knowing that I’ll get the gear pieces I want with those tokens, rather than grind dungeons with an RNG and hope I get the piece I want. I know how many dungeon runs it will take to get the amount of tokens I need. Once I have the tokens I can buy the gear I want with them. I once ran a dungeon 37 times in WoW just for 1 piece of gear. In those 37 runs that piece dropped twice. The first time I lost the roll so I had to keep running it and hope it would drop. For me, that is not fun. This is.

This I forgot to mention and I wholeheartedly agree. And WoW isn’t even the worst. I’ve played games that are much worse. It totally sucks the fun out of it. I’d rather things be a guarantee. Tell me what I have to do to earn it, and I’ll do it.

SpectacularYak.6518:

Omega.5682:

MMO players like being able to become more powerful than other players based on the time and energy they put into the game.

Omega.5682:

MMO players like being able to highlight their individual skill in competitive contest

One of those things is completely incompatible with the other.

People like A, because they specifically do NOT like competitive contests. They like contests in which they have an advantage.

This needed to be requoted. I have no problem with people that like to grind for gear with outrageous stats, but they a) need to admit that it give them a big advantage, and b) won’t find it here. It’s laughable to suggest it promotes competitive play.

It’s odd, really. If GW2 was considered as an RPG with a huge multiplayer component, I don’t think anybody would be complaining. If anything, people would be stunned by the amount of content crammed into $60.

However, this is supposed to be an MMO, and MMOs have a different set of standards. And a very core part of those standards is to have content that encourages people to play constantly. In the oldest of games this was made by just having the level cap take you 1yr or more of lifeless grind to reach. WoW reshuffled that by making the objective gear grind, and then gradually introducing more tiers of gear to elongate it. Other things like crafting grind (which for the record, GW2 still has) require you to grind the materials or gold for materials, then sit there waiting for the crafting to complete, then farm a dungeon for a rare drop material, rinse lather repeat.

GW2’s objective is to remove “hard” grind that the game basically forces you to complete. However, I believe that Anet has neglected to introduce alternative aspects of PvE that independently have a reason to be repeated without some sort of overarching purpose like grind. For example, while Events are repeatable, there isn’t any sort of inherent reason to repeat them unless you either need to grind levels to progress to the next zone, grind karma for exotics, or grind monsters for materials. Dungeons are repeatable, but after you’ve figured out the fights and enjoyed your wipes, it just becomes repetition while you grind for dungeon tokens.

I believe the original concept was to have a set of varied objectives, which individually sink time and occasionally overlap aspects of their completion. For example, while trying to hit Lv80, you will do events. Events grant Karma, which can eventually be used to buy Exotics. The skill points accrued also can be put towards a Legendary weapon, as well as excess karma. Therefore, the level, exotic, and legendary objectives are connected. However, the problem here should be apparent: only Events seem to have this nice mix of Exp, Karma, Mob Farming (materials), and Gold income. Dungeons throw Karma and Mobs (relatively speaking) out the window in return for Tokens. WvWvW is horribly inconsistent in terms of gains due to matchups, whether or not you get kills, and whether or not your allies can ever get events completed.

So what we end up with is a single path that produces multiple outcomes. Unless you’re specifically shooting for a Dungeon or WvWvW set, you grind Events. Repeatedly. For EVERYTHING. In my opinion, this is a huge issue because Event rewards are only maximized in the Cursed Shore, due to all events being Lv80. So unless you feel like forcibly hamstringing your forward progress, you don’t even get a decent variety.

On top of this, not enough things reward Karma, because that basically just boils down to Event grind. Personal Story doesn’t grant Karma. Dungeons don’t grant Karma. Exploration doesn’t grant Karma. Gathering doesn’t grant Karma. Killing monsters doesn’t grant Karma. Crafting doesn’t grant Karma. Note that all the stuff I listed still grants Exp. But the only things that grant Karma are Events, Events, and WvWvW Events. And yet, the grand whopping majority of PvE things are purchased with Karma, or can be purchased with Karma. Racial Armor. General Exotics. Crafting Materials. WvWvW basic Weapons/Armor. Various tools. Boosts and Buffs. There are a ton of Karma sinks, and only one decent source of Karma.

Why do you miss your grind? Is someone keeping you from grinding?

BTW those legendaries sure look like grind to me.

ITT: Players bought an MMO with a well advertised PvP endgame, where skill shines over gear and were expecting something different.

I don’t.

Matter of fact, I look forward to the moment where I’m sitting in Lion’s Arch with my ideal set of lvl 80 exotics and 50+g in the bank. Right then, I expect, will be a triumphant moment where I realize instead of constantly grinding to keep up to par and make sure I don’t get totally left behind in stats, I can lean back, play whatever part of the game I kitten want to and enjoy every minute of it.

And god forbid – but if I leave for a few weeks or months and come back, I will still be up to snuff and able to smear the wall with your brains. So go ahead. Grind for that legendary, or those skins, or whatever the heck you like. But on the field, I’ll still own you with skill-based gameplay, and I wouldn’t have it any other way.