Immersion vs "It's just a game"
The primary difference is who is offended and the viewpoint of the people. Racism and jokes in bad taste offends people and is a constant problem in the real world. Everyone has their own opinions of what is offensive and what is not, but racism affects the real world so no its not just a game (unless its being racist against Charr or an Asura than its just a game). Being racist against black, asian, etc. offends people in real world.
Immersion on the other hand is just a game and if you have to be told that than you should need a doctor and get some help.
Ranger; Warrior; Mesmer; Elementalist; Guardian; Engineer
[GWAM] and [LUST]
Mess with the best, die like the rest.
[GWAM] and [LUST]
Mess with the best, die like the rest.
Immersion is an important factor to me, but I don’t go into MMO’s expecting immersion. It’s just about impossible to achieve. If I want a RPG I can fully immerse myself in, I play a single player game. :P
I noticed something interesting today while surfing around the forums. When someone complains that something in game may be offensive or upsetting, such as this thread about the comments made about Scarlet ( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/escape/SPOILER-Jokes-in-bad-taste ) or my own log ago thread about the racism in game ( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/A-question-about-racist-comments/first ) a large portion of the responses are “It’s just a game get over it”
The thing is, Tyria is not our world. While we frown upon discrimination and racism, it’s a very common thing in Tyria, especially with the Charr. Heck, the Asura are a race of little people who look down upon the intellect of everyone else.
As for making jokes about people dying, there’s a whole thing called the Bond One-Liner.
But then we turn around and have threads where people complain about something breaks their immersion in the game like this one talking about accessories ( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/I-dislike-immersion-breaking-accessories ) or this thread complaining about the interface itself as immersion breaking ( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Suggestion-Turn-off-individual-UI-elements ) to those posts I see very few “It’s just a game get over it” replies.
It is true that some townclothes make no sense, particularly the promotional ones. Chef suits and boxing gloves though? Those make perfect sense, we even have Chef as a crafting profession.
The other topic that you linked to did not get a single response in 3 weeks so far, so I wouldn’t really call it an “issue”.
So it makes me wonder what is more important to people immersion and the feeling of living in the world created by the game or just playing the game as it is and taking everything included with it as just a game.
Depends on the person. Some people like RPGs because of the worlds created within them. For those people, the immersion is a pretty big thing, because it brings the artificial nature of it to the front, making it go from a world of fantasy to a machination of technology. Others play games to as a getaway from the mundane reality. For those people, reminders of the issues of daily life (discrimination and racism, etc) can, and often will, diminish the fun of the game, thus making it not worth to play.
Guild Wars 2 broke immersion when they added zone load screens and instant travel waypoints.
Immersion is an important factor to me, but I don’t go into MMO’s expecting immersion. It’s just about impossible to achieve. If I want a RPG I can fully immerse myself in, I play a single player game. :P
immersion in MMORPG’s isnt really achieveable by normal means that you would see in singler player games. The qaulity of quests in MMO’s is terrible, and you dont give 2 kittens about the story most of the time, even in GW2 were it was sort of the main focus.
Immersion comes from things faction vs faction pride, something GW2 doesn’t even attempt. If I was playing as serperatist humans fighting dirty char, and destinies edge cronies it would be 100x better than just some server I don’t care about. Beautiful large explorable world spaces you can get lost in, while the artstyle is top notch in GW2 things feel…small compact and bland. Divinities Reach is a really good example, not many interesting NPC’s to find, and some of the buildings are the size of my character… just because things are “far away” doesn’t mean I wont noticed you scaled it down 1:250 Anet.
Immersion is an important factor to me, but I don’t go into MMO’s expecting immersion. It’s just about impossible to achieve. If I want a RPG I can fully immerse myself in, I play a single player game. :P
Completely agree. Any of the Elder Scroll single player games come to mind for me.
Forum discussions -
Mmo players with a screw loose vs mmo players with two screws loose. All very important stuff.
-Zenleto-
Mmo players with a screw loose vs mmo players with two screws loose. All very important stuff.
-Zenleto-
Id argue immersion is how well is the game made = hours you can play with out sleeping
Id argue immersion is how well is the game made = hours you can play with out sleeping
You’re kidding, right?
Forum discussions -
Mmo players with a screw loose vs mmo players with two screws loose. All very important stuff.
-Zenleto-
Mmo players with a screw loose vs mmo players with two screws loose. All very important stuff.
-Zenleto-
Immersion depends on the individual, it is not something that we need game designers to create for us (Although of course, some games make it easier to feel like a part of the world than others, and GW2 is not among them). With a bit of imagination and the right attitude. however, this can be achieved.
I’m kind of on the fence as far as immersion goes. No interest in RP or anything, but I do get a kick out of making little in-jokes from time to time. Sometimes I’ll type ‘God-kitten it!’ in chat and the forum readers get a chuckle out of it.
I noticed something interesting today while surfing around the forums. When someone complains that something in game may be offensive or upsetting, such as this thread about the comments made about Scarlet ( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/escape/SPOILER-Jokes-in-bad-taste ) or my own log ago thread about the racism in game ( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/A-question-about-racist-comments/first ) a large portion of the responses are “It’s just a game get over it”
But then we turn around and have threads where people complain about something breaks their immersion in the game like this one talking about accessories ( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/I-dislike-immersion-breaking-accessories ) or this thread complaining about the interface itself as immersion breaking ( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Suggestion-Turn-off-individual-UI-elements ) to those posts I see very few “It’s just a game get over it” replies.
So it makes me wonder what is more important to people immersion and the feeling of living in the world created by the game or just playing the game as it is and taking everything included with it as just a game.
In terms of free speech in-game, there’s a “Block” feature. I have a MASSIVE “blocked” list. MASSIVE.
The very best feature in this game is the ability to never be bothered by someone you think is an kitten. If you choose not to avail yourself of a simple-to-use feature, that’s your issue.
Regarding the double-standard you’ve experienced on the forums, that’s because we’re in the backwaters of the GW2 universe, where petty tyrants with too much authority and not-enough-oversight rule at their arbitrary whim.
Good luck.
Obstacles cannot crush me; every obstacle yields to Stern Resolve.
IMO, gameplay trumps immersion. Sure, it makes no sense that that dead wolf would be carrying a greatsword after I kill it, but that’s just for matters of simplicity.
Of course, immersion is where the polish is at. It’s fun to play a game, but it’s even more fun if you get drawn into the world more. This game could use more in that direction; maybe I’ll be encouraged to RP once in a while. There are some parts of the open world that do manage to draw me out there and creates the feeling of there being a world, but I can’t say the same for many other areas of the game.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
It’s a bit of a double edged sword.
On one end, the more you sacrifice immersion, the more it feels like you’re playing a calculator. On the other, you could make a game like URU Online where so much as the smallest interaction with the community could spoil a puzzle and shorten your game-time.
Couple that with the fact that differences exist between story immersion and environment immersion.
The way I feel for example:
If somebody tells me what happens in the story/living story before I play it, I’m OK with that. Sometimes it even lets me know what I have to look forward to (or not.) Did it break my story immersion? Guess so. Do I care? No.
Meanwhile stuff like the lack of first person zoom or the fact that pretty much every random dialogue in the game ends with a punch line, zinger, irony or proclamation irks me every day. That’s environment immersion, it affects how the game generally feels.
Some people may put more weight on story. Others may go so far as to suggest PvE gets removed entirely.
^ Uses Guild Wars 2 character screenshots for desktop wallpapers.
I think immersion is very important for the game because it lets you get drawn into the world or not. Plus immersion braking stuff can be very frustrating
I do think your examples are not really good. Bad jokes by Scarlet or Racism does not have to be immersion braking. Being bothered about it does not mean it breaks immersion.
However there are multiple very immersion braking elements in GW2. It’s one of the lesser elements of this game.
Dynamic events should make the world feel alive but repeating events make it feel useless and show you that it’s just a game taking you out of the immersion.
Not one real open world but instanced maps. Every time you swap maps you get a loading screen reminding you it’s a game.
The waypoints that let you get everywhere without any trouble and really without it making a lot of sense plus once again the loading screen.
Invisible walls and objects with no collision detection all over the place. Me being somebody who like to jump on everything I run into both all the time. Extremely immersion braking.
Also the whole spanning system is extremely bad. It does not really take into account that there are players (only looking how many players are in the area to increase the number and speed) that should not see just mobs spawn everywhere and need to kill the same mob over and over again, and suddenly being attacked in the back by a spawned mob or that players should be able to clear an area without mobs keeping re-spawning all the time.
Dynamic events that start with spawning some mobs that are invulnerable at the beginning.
Finally what comes to mind is how mobs start running back when they get to far from there spawn-site or of the player is not in line of sight. Now that sort of makes sense, but he should not run all the way back and even start healing while a player is still attacking.
As you can see most of those immersion-breaking elements are also frustrating.
Falling (to your death) because you jumped on an edge you could not reach because there was an invisible wall in the way or because it did not have collision detection is very frustrating and feels like the game is cheating.
Dying from a mob while you killed all the mobs there already multiple times but they keep re-spawning is extremely frustrating.
Almost having a ‘boss’ killed when it suddenly runs back and starts healing is very frustrating.
Attack mobs then are invulnerable and then having them attack you while you have everything in cool-down is extremely frustrating.
Many of those immersion-braking things feel so frustrating because if feels like you are being cheated.
I said immersion is something where GW2 is lacking a lot. GW2 is also the most frustrating game I have ever playing.. Frustrating in a way that it can make you mad at the game. Something I never had in another game but examples I just gave makes it very frustrating at times.
So yes immersion is very important. It draws you into the world what is important for a game while immersion braking events dos exactly the opposite plus creates a lot of frustration.
It’s a bit of a double edged sword.
On one end, the more you sacrifice immersion, the more it feels like you’re playing a calculator. On the other, you could make a game like URU Online where so much as the smallest interaction with the community could spoil a puzzle and shorten your game-time.
Couple that with the fact that differences exist between story immersion and environment immersion.
The way I feel for example:
If somebody tells me what happens in the story/living story before I play it, I’m OK with that. Sometimes it even lets me know what I have to look forward to (or not.) Did it break my story immersion? Guess so. Do I care? No.
Meanwhile stuff like the lack of first person zoom or the fact that pretty much every random dialogue in the game ends with a punch line, zinger, irony or proclamation irks me every day. That’s environment immersion, it affects how the game generally feels.
Some people may put more weight on story. Others may go so far as to suggest PvE gets removed entirely.
Good that you separate the two in your post. I did not think about doing that. I am also taking about the environment immersion.
However I can understand how story immersion breaking might also be very frustrating for some people. It’s not so much for me personally
just because things are “far away” doesn’t mean I wont noticed you scaled it down 1:250 Anet.
I’m sure you’d appreciate a 20 day trip just to get to the first waypoint in Orr on a new character. I’m sure everyone’s realized just how quickly you can traverse between zones in GW2. But have you truly realized the sheer scale of those distances?
Immersion is one of the most important elements in games for me. Especially in MMOs or open world Games like GTA or Skyrim.
On the other hand a lot of immersion in GW2 gets killed by the fragmented world (zones and portals to an adjacent zone).
‘would have/would’ve been’ —> correct
‘would of been’ —> wrong
‘would of been’ —> wrong
Immersion is one of the most important elements in games for me. Especially in MMOs or open world Games like GTA or Skyrim.
On the other hand a lot of immersion in GW2 gets killed by the fragmented world (zones and portals to an adjacent zone).
Archage…
I continue with this opinion, GW2 with sandbox elements and no overflows would kill any future mmo, even being with intanced zones.
1st April joke, when gw2 receives a “balance” update.
Immersion is one of the most important elements in games for me. Especially in MMOs or open world Games like GTA or Skyrim.
On the other hand a lot of immersion in GW2 gets killed by the fragmented world (zones and portals to an adjacent zone).
Archage…
I continue with this opinion, GW2 with sandbox elements and no overflows would kill any future mmo, even being with intanced zones.
More sandbox would indeed be great and it would create the ‘living world’ Anet is talking about all the time but not really able to create with there patches. However it’s not really related to immersion, maybe except for that fact that events don’t have to replay but content changes because of players input.
I have been following ArcheAge but i’m afraid also that game will become to much focused on the cash-shop. Plus while I would like to give it a try I don’t feel like paying 140 euro for a F2P game.
(edited by Devata.6589)
Invisible walls and objects with no collision detection all over the place. Me being somebody who like to jump on everything I run into both all the time. Extremely immersion breaking.
Falling (to your death) because you jumped on an edge you could not reach because there was an invisible wall in the way or because it did not have collision detection is very frustrating and feels like the game is cheating.
>.> So much this. I loathe free-roam games with invisible walls. And every mountain slope in every MMO, ever. There are some steep slopes that are “obviously” (no they’re not) climbable, and others at half that gradient are slipperier than an oiled kitten near a bath tub. Worse still are the jumping puzzle hit detections. In many cases, I academically know where to jump, but the ledge is so badly coded that a pixel’s difference is all it takes for me to have to start the whole thing over.
Many alts; handle it!
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
“I’m finding companies should sell access to forums,
it seems many like them better than the games they comment on.” -Horrorscope.7632
Immersion is good but Immersion can only happen to a specific point on entertainment. Be that a video game, a movie, a book or any story. We know to a point that what we are being immersed in is not real. If we take our own Immersion to extremes however we can start to loose touch with reality. That type of immersion is not capable unless the individual starts some Matrix thought process in my opinion.
As for being offended there are some forms of entertainment that some may think takes things to far. However we each can decide if we want to participate in what offends us or not. There are rating systems(however imperfect) that help us make those decisions. The only thing we hope is that the game stays true to it’s rating or making sure it is not mis-rated.
Something interesting I found posted on Peter Fries twitter related to Immersion in a video game.
Is killing NPCs in videogames immoral? Is my profession enabling mass murder? Should I get a lawyer? http://www.vox.com/2014/4/23/5643418/this-guy-thinks-killing-video-game-characters-is-immoral … (via @voxdotcom)
At what point does something that is not OK or ethically right in the real world become OK in a Video Game? How does one determine that? Is a specific amount of immersion required to not make things ok?
In Game: Storm Bluff Isle — Anzz, Anzenketh Kyoto
(edited by anzenketh.3759)