Guild Wars 2

I’d put in at abt 6 for my personal rating on the importance of end game.

I think having stuff to do end game (that is when u reach lvl 80) is quite important. And by stuff to do i dont mind grinding, farming and all tht. To put it simply its not abt getting more gear, its about what we can do with the gear. The former should not outweight the latter.

Having said all that, I’d still put in some concern for non end-game stuffs. Lower level things to do, places to go, more variety for new players to experience the game; more than what we had when we lvled up our toons. It would, hopefully, let new toons/players mingle with some older ones as it wont be exclusive lvl 80 only.

[quote=3188735;Vayne.8563:]

Vayne.8563:

snip

This argument of ‘not many people get to raids so it isn’t needed’ has been addressed a lot of times. Raids are like the final boss in a game, you know its there, and you know its awesome and it becomes something you aspire to do one day. Its the ultimate challenge, or even a rite of passage for some people. Anyone can tell you of the feeling you get when you first conquer a raid.

It doesn’t matter if you don’t get to do it ever. Its a goal and a dream for many. Its something which drives people to become stronger.

Of course, there’s many people like you who aren’t interested in raiding. Its like how there’s a lot of people who prefer sandbox games than games with a structure and a final boss. But theres a lot of people who like the latter, that’s why Mario is still fighting Bowser, and Link fighting the latest incarnation of Gannon.

UO and EQ1 were not niche games. Some even say that UO was the first ever MMORPG. The MMO genre was the thing that was niche back then.

Vanilla WoW was not casual friendly. It took weeks and weeks to get to max level back then and getting BiS gear was a very respectable achievement, and boy you had to work for it. It became more and more casual friendly as time went on to accommodate to the changing MMO market.

I’ve never said raids should be the only endgame. My argument is that they work as ‘endgame’ content. WoW probably did define what endgame content is for MMOs, but it was successful, it worked and players enjoyed it. If it works, why not use it?

Also, I don’t think you can just call everyone sheep. I enjoy Zelda games. I’ve been playing them since the Gameboy Color. I would go ‘make a new Zelda game!’ if Nintendo ever asked what people would want along with the million other people who would say the same. Am I sheep?

Xae Isareth.1364:

Vayne.8563:

snip

-double snip-

Am I sheep?

Hey! The sheep insults are my thing! No touchie!

Back on topic, in regards to the Zelda franchise… you very well might be a sheep Xae. It depends on whether you’re a mindless follower or not. Would you completely flip out if they created another Zelda, but it wasn’t completely the same as every other Zelda game out there? If they tried expanding upon the tried and true, rather than walking a narrow well trodden path?

While the phrase ‘if it’s not broke don’t fix it’ is an apt one, we forget that "same ol’ same ol’ " gets very boring. We fall into a rut and then wonder why we can’t find anything enjoyable. We need to sometimes break out of that rut and ‘take the path least taken’ to find something new, something exciting, rather than simply accepting the tried and true and giving it a new paint job. I do applaud Anet for attempting to not necessarily take the path of least resistance when it comes to GW2. They are willing to try new things, expand beyond the ‘comfort zone’ of normal MMOs and run with their ideas. Does it always work out? Nope, they sure get a lot of flack for it, but hey… fortune favors the bold.

I guess I would say 10/10 in the sense that I’ve done all the leveling that I’m going to do (8 level 80’s.) It needn’t be raids, though, so I don’t mean endgame in that way.

However, I think the major problem with the game – which is fantastic, innovative, and fun overall – is the simple lack of rewarding, challenging, repeatable things for geared up level 80s to do. As I see it, the available activities are:

Dungeons – the obvious one. Not much of a challenge with any of these other than Arah; the others are just a question of how fast you get them done, and most lack interesting mechanics of any sort and are just “stack and dps, repeat” type encounters. As they lack any aspect of randomness, once you’ve done them a lot (and I have) they are worth running for gold, but not that interesting.

Dynamic events – the first problem is that these aren’t really dynamic, they are just chains that can complete or fail. The second is that the rewards system pushes people into just a few zones. Outside of the world bosses – and I think pretty much everyone is sick of these by now – the only events that get run are the Orr temples and the Risen High Wizard. Even of those, Melandru, Grenth, and Lyssa get run more than any other because the loot – bag drops from adds, which the other temples mainly lack – is better. Ascended crafting gave people a reason to do temples again, but didn’t make it any more interesting.

Fractals – oh boy, I could write a tome. Fractals were supposed to be the answer to the very problem I’m posing by providing challenging, repeatable, somewhat randomized PvE content. It does those things better than dungeons, to be sure, but fractals have withered on the vine with almost no real improvements for about a year now. The loot is inferior to dungeons overall, there is too great a disparity in how long individual fractals take to run (dredge vs. swamp) and ramping up the level provides no additional challenge except absurd HP pools, making 48 and above less about challenge and more about struggling to stay awake. And then there is, of course, the most patently absurd, unfair, bizarre rewards system in the game, providing for an hour+ run a tiny chance at a completely random weapon, with absolutely no way of getting a particular one. Fractal weapon ticket? Buyable weapons with pristine relics? Something to do with the piles and piles of pointless shards and globs (like, you know, ascended crafting, which pointedly and insultingly made absolutely no use of these materials)? People have been asking to change this for months with no response at all.

LS – mostly not repeatable, totally lackluster of late. “Look up the map on Dulfy and go click 20 of these random obelisks for achievement” is not content, challenge, or anything else.

Mindless mat farming for legendaries – Champ farming being the obvious one, though there are others. I don’t think anyone really wants to do any of these things for more than half an hour or so, and they certainly provide no challenge or interest of any kind.

WvW – the one bright spot, if somewhat hampered by technical issues. But WvW is really a shell of what it could become. Commanders need real tools to work with beyond the blue dorito and teamspeak, which encourages the boring blob v. blob dynamic. Commanders need to be able to list all the players on the map, break them up into squads, and give those squads visual directions visible on the map, so that players know where to go and what to do.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Vayne.8563:

snip

-double snip-

Am I sheep?

Hey! The sheep insults are my thing! No touchie!

Back on topic, in regards to the Zelda franchise… you very well might be a sheep Xae. It depends on whether you’re a mindless follower or not. Would you completely flip out if they created another Zelda, but it wasn’t completely the same as every other Zelda game out there? If they tried expanding upon the tried and true, rather than walking a narrow well trodden path?

While the phrase ‘if it’s not broke don’t fix it’ is an apt one, we forget that "same ol’ same ol’ " gets very boring. We fall into a rut and then wonder why we can’t find anything enjoyable. We need to sometimes break out of that rut and ‘take the path least taken’ to find something new, something exciting, rather than simply accepting the tried and true and giving it a new paint job. I do applaud Anet for attempting to not necessarily take the path of least resistance when it comes to GW2. They are willing to try new things, expand beyond the ‘comfort zone’ of normal MMOs and run with their ideas. Does it always work out? Nope, they sure get a lot of flack for it, but hey… fortune favors the bold.

If they made Zelda Monster Truck Simulator, yes, I would flip out.

You can try things, but of there’s something there already which works, you may as well give them it first to keep people satisfied then try other things. Its not like the only thing you can work on is raids.

Trying out new things has many consequences. so you need some of the true and tested stuff in there to keep people satisfied.

Going back to Zelda. Looking at the first game compared to Skyward Sword, theres a ton of differences. If you look at how it got there, it wasn’t Nintendo suddenly going ‘dude! we’re gonna change everyyyythingggg!’ (well, they did for Zelda 2 but we all know how well that went), ot was changing small things a bit at a time to find what works whilst keeping the tried and true stuff in there to make sure people don’t bail.

Xae Isareth.1364:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Vayne.8563:

snip

-double snip-

Am I sheep?

Hey! The sheep insults are my thing! No touchie!

Back on topic, in regards to the Zelda franchise… you very well might be a sheep Xae. It depends on whether you’re a mindless follower or not. Would you completely flip out if they created another Zelda, but it wasn’t completely the same as every other Zelda game out there? If they tried expanding upon the tried and true, rather than walking a narrow well trodden path?

While the phrase ‘if it’s not broke don’t fix it’ is an apt one, we forget that "same ol’ same ol’ " gets very boring. We fall into a rut and then wonder why we can’t find anything enjoyable. We need to sometimes break out of that rut and ‘take the path least taken’ to find something new, something exciting, rather than simply accepting the tried and true and giving it a new paint job. I do applaud Anet for attempting to not necessarily take the path of least resistance when it comes to GW2. They are willing to try new things, expand beyond the ‘comfort zone’ of normal MMOs and run with their ideas. Does it always work out? Nope, they sure get a lot of flack for it, but hey… fortune favors the bold.

If they made Zelda Monster Truck Simulator, yes, I would flip out.

You can try things, but of there’s something there already which works, you may as well give them it first to keep people satisfied then try other things. Its not like the only thing you can work on is raids.

Trying out new things has many consequences. so you need some of the true and tested stuff in there to keep people satisfied.

Going back to Zelda. Looking at the first game compared to Skyward Sword, theres a ton of differences. If you look at how it got there, it wasn’t Nintendo suddenly going ‘dude! we’re gonna change everyyyythingggg!’ (well, they did for Zelda 2 but we all know how well that went), ot was changing small things a bit at a time to find what works whilst keeping the tried and true stuff in there to make sure people don’t bail.

Ok “Zelda Monster Truck Simulator” would be extreme even by my standards. I was thinking something more along the lines from traditional Mario to Mario Kart. Same franchise, totally different… equally enjoyable.

Anet did not toss all of the tried and true out the window. They upgraded some things, but the core ideas are still there:

Quests → Hearts and DE’s.
Dungeons → 5 man just like WoW, but no trinity.
Missions → Personal Story.

They gave us crafting like other games have, but they tweaked it so that gathering isn’t [its] own profession, and we don’t have to fight each other over gathering nodes. They made making multiples of the same thing not take ages, and we can help level our characters with it, but it’s core is still pretty much the same thing you’d find in most other games.

They are striving to do something different. They don’t want to just hand us instanced raids like every other game. They don’t want to do player housing, or guilds, like every other game. (Just to name a couple) Will it be absolutely totally, radically different? Not necessarily. The core, basic ideas will be there. They just want to give it a little “twist” to make it unique, which I like.

The importance for end-game is 10 to me. What end-game in this game is however…. good for 1 character, slightly annoying for 2 characters, boring when you reach your third. So maybe it’s worth 5/10 at the moment.

WvW is only thing keeping me in this game after 8 characters and it’s the part I have been playing solely for months.

10 for sure. If you say anything below 8 you probably shouldn’t be playing MMO’s.

Keep in mind that endgame comes in MANY forms. The only thing that it really means is ‘things to do after max level’. Whether that be some form of raiding, gathering, crafting, or exploring.

It is important to keep in mind that GW1 had almost no end game. Sure there were random arena, underworld and FoW. But those are not great end game by any measure.

In GW1 the end game was starting an alt character. It was so alt friendly that I had 9 characters. Many other players I know had more. It took players hours to plan out their character. They have to pick the skills. They have to set the traits. They had to equip the character and get skins for them. But at the same time, those tasks are fairly easy so no one feels it is a grind at all.

GW2 is not alt friendly at all. It takes forever to max one character’s equipments. That’s the core of the problem. I explained this in great details in this thread here.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/1-Alt-Chars-2-Side-Kick-System

CHIPS.6018:

It is important to keep in mind that GW1 had almost no end game. Sure there were random arena, underworld and FoW. But those are not great end game by any measure.

In GW1 the end game was starting an alt character. It was so alt friendly that I had 9 characters. Many other players I know had more. It took players hours to plan out their character. They have to pick the skills. They have to set the traits. They had to equip the character and get skins for them. But at the same time, those tasks are fairly easy so no one feels it is a grind at all.

GW2 is not alt friendly at all. That’s the core of the problem. I explained this in great details in this thread here.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/1-Alt-Chars-2-Side-Kick-System

GW2 is the most alt-friendly MMO to ever exist. Seriously. Stop saying it’s not. There are only two things in the entire game that off the top of my head aren’t alt friendly, and that’s fractals and WvW exp.

Ahlen.7591:

CHIPS.6018:

It is important to keep in mind that GW1 had almost no end game. Sure there were random arena, underworld and FoW. But those are not great end game by any measure.

In GW1 the end game was starting an alt character. It was so alt friendly that I had 9 characters. Many other players I know had more. It took players hours to plan out their character. They have to pick the skills. They have to set the traits. They had to equip the character and get skins for them. But at the same time, those tasks are fairly easy so no one feels it is a grind at all.

GW2 is not alt friendly at all. That’s the core of the problem. I explained this in great details in this thread here.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/1-Alt-Chars-2-Side-Kick-System

GW2 is the most alt-friendly MMO to ever exist. Seriously. Stop saying it’s not. There are only two things in the entire game that off the top of my head aren’t alt friendly, and that’s fractals and WvW exp.

I agree that I find the game to be very alt friendly, with a few exceptions. No where near as bad as other games I have played… including GW1.

“Endgame” is an interesting concept, or rather an interesting “term” put on specific features of a game’s replayability. Going by that, I’d give the concept of endgame’s a solid 5 for relative indifference: cool if it’s there, okay if it aint. Whats more important to me is just some solid replayability and longevity, both which I think could use a lot of help in GW2.

Ahlen.7591:

CHIPS.6018:

It is important to keep in mind that GW1 had almost no end game. Sure there were random arena, underworld and FoW. But those are not great end game by any measure.

In GW1 the end game was starting an alt character. It was so alt friendly that I had 9 characters. Many other players I know had more. It took players hours to plan out their character. They have to pick the skills. They have to set the traits. They had to equip the character and get skins for them. But at the same time, those tasks are fairly easy so no one feels it is a grind at all.

GW2 is not alt friendly at all. That’s the core of the problem. I explained this in great details in this thread here.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/1-Alt-Chars-2-Side-Kick-System

GW2 is the most alt-friendly MMO to ever exist. Seriously. Stop saying it’s not. There are only two things in the entire game that off the top of my head aren’t alt friendly, and that’s fractals and WvW exp.

GW2, today is not alt-friendly. It is not the most alt friendly MMO that every existed because
a) GW1, and
b) GW2 pre-January 2013.

They have repeatedly and regularly made changes that made the game less alt-friendly. Each new set of gear, each change to the reward structure, each new mechanic have progressively been less and less alt-friendly.

End game is necessary 100%. However by End game i do not mean the work style grinds or 7-10 hours raids. End game as i see it, is some thing that we players will do at level 80, that will keep us engaged and interested. With that i can tell that end game is not 2 meaningless daily quests for whatever time killing reason or 5 minutes dungeon run.

If i’d say that i like GW2 the way it is, it would be a lie. I do not want it to turn into another job but i want to feel more engaged in the game. Each reward has to actually be earned, not just thrown at us and has to feel like it’s earned.

All i can say is “invent, invent and invent again”!

1. Dungeons should be at least 30 minutes to a hour long runs and of course with scaled rewards for scaled difficulties. These 5-15 min junkies are straight up garbage. That flame legion exotic set should be earned, because it looks good, because it’s exotic. Right now it’s just given to us.

2. Teaming up and guilds have to be more encouraging. I’ve tried many guilds and can honestly say, i didn’t need a single one of them. Being in guild is straight up not rewarding, or at least not rewarding enough to mater. I want guilds to actually do staff together (be it raids, dungeons or pvp), not join for the heck of it.

3. I would like to see raids, 10 and 20 man raids would be just perfect. The 5 man teams don’t offer enough sense of unity and engagement. You would say “NO WAY!”, but this idea has the right to live. I don’t see a single reason why ANET can’t make these raids to work out. Invent bosses with better mechanics, offer sexier loot (may be even legendaries on small drop rate). – i Will continue on it in a different topic dedicated just for raid discussion and overall pve enhancement.

4. Another topic that deserves separate thread. The holy trinity, i know the game was designed to not have the holy trinity, however why do we have tanks in GW 2? just why? Don’t tell me “well, bunker is not really a tank” or “well it’s mostly used for pvp so we don’t mind”. No, bunker is 100% a tank, one of the main components of holy trinity, so why do we have them? If we have a tank and DPS, it would make perfect sense to add the missing component. On the other hand ANET could remove the bunkers completely.

5. i’m all for inclining horizontal to vertical gear progression for PVE, there absolutely no reason to keep it horizontal. If it’s horizontal, people would simply not try one or the other dungeon, or go kill this boss. Good example is COF VS Arah, gear is same stat wise, COF is easier, i don’t see a single reason why i would like to go more than once to Arah, and first time only to see it. My argument here is that there absolutely no reason to do some thing harder when you can get same reward without any effort.

6. Lastly, i want to touch the leveling mechanics. GW2 is very innovative, i don’t see a single reason why we should have levels. we can gain rep independent of levels, so is the characteristics (ferocity, valor and the 3rd one). I would say that ye we have to go through a story mode of our first character, and with each completed chapter in the story mode with various branches of story line we should get the talents to spec with. That would be more than enough, and every other character we create should just come with all explored way points and talents, so we can enjoy the character. Additional story line should be optional with some reward if done.

7. Unfortunately last point has led me to this final topic. The zones, i believe they all should be part of end game, not just one thing we never return too. this could be a part of raid content for example, or any thing else, but be alive, rather than forgotten. Also those zones while being part of the story lines, should offer a choice, i personally hate dredge zones and want to avoid them all i can even if i don’t experience it unless for a raid boss. Instead i’d like to stick to diessa plateau, or ogre lands.

1

Even back in WoW, where end-game is raid e’ernight, I didn’t care about gear. For me, it’s all about PvP, and WvW sates that craving. I do hope sPvP gets a jolt soon to get me queuing for it.

Eh, there’s plenty of end-game in GW2. It comes out every 2 weeks!

I think the problem is that there isn’t hardly any instanced, repeatable content. Instead, it’s a rush to complete a set of achievements before they’re gone forever.

However, for the, the biggest issue is that so much of the content seems to revolve around mindless huge masses of players running around, auto-attacking stuff. GW2 is still my game of choice, but without any new dungeons, no raids, and a really stale PvP environment, I’m losing interest fast.

WvW had some great potential, but it just doesn’t feel like you have any impact on some huge game that you can only play a tiny role in for a small portion of time. It also largely revolves around huge zergs running around with a handful of actual strategic decisions being made by a few people.

Tl;dr – There’s plenty of content, but it’s rarely engaging outside of dungeons and PvP that’s very outdated.

CHIPS.6018:

It is important to keep in mind that GW1 had almost no end game. Sure there were random arena, underworld and FoW. But those are not great end game by any measure.

In GW1 the end game was starting an alt character. It was so alt friendly that I had 9 characters. Many other players I know had more. It took players hours to plan out their character. They have to pick the skills. They have to set the traits. They had to equip the character and get skins for them. But at the same time, those tasks are fairly easy so no one feels it is a grind at all.

GW2 is not alt friendly at all. It takes forever to max one character’s equipments. That’s the core of the problem. I explained this in great details in this thread here.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/1-Alt-Chars-2-Side-Kick-System

Gw1 had no endgame? You sure we were playing the same game? If my memory servers me correctly gw1’s endgame was the best ive ever played. The amount of elite dungeons with the addicting rewards system kept me playing the game for YEARS.

If only Gw2 had even half as good endgame as Gw1

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Xae Isareth.1364:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Vayne.8563:

snip

-double snip-

Am I sheep?

Hey! The sheep insults are my thing! No touchie!

Back on topic, in regards to the Zelda franchise… you very well might be a sheep Xae. It depends on whether you’re a mindless follower or not. Would you completely flip out if they created another Zelda, but it wasn’t completely the same as every other Zelda game out there? If they tried expanding upon the tried and true, rather than walking a narrow well trodden path?

While the phrase ‘if it’s not broke don’t fix it’ is an apt one, we forget that "same ol’ same ol’ " gets very boring. We fall into a rut and then wonder why we can’t find anything enjoyable. We need to sometimes break out of that rut and ‘take the path least taken’ to find something new, something exciting, rather than simply accepting the tried and true and giving it a new paint job. I do applaud Anet for attempting to not necessarily take the path of least resistance when it comes to GW2. They are willing to try new things, expand beyond the ‘comfort zone’ of normal MMOs and run with their ideas. Does it always work out? Nope, they sure get a lot of flack for it, but hey… fortune favors the bold.

If they made Zelda Monster Truck Simulator, yes, I would flip out.

You can try things, but of there’s something there already which works, you may as well give them it first to keep people satisfied then try other things. Its not like the only thing you can work on is raids.

Trying out new things has many consequences. so you need some of the true and tested stuff in there to keep people satisfied.

Going back to Zelda. Looking at the first game compared to Skyward Sword, theres a ton of differences. If you look at how it got there, it wasn’t Nintendo suddenly going ‘dude! we’re gonna change everyyyythingggg!’ (well, they did for Zelda 2 but we all know how well that went), ot was changing small things a bit at a time to find what works whilst keeping the tried and true stuff in there to make sure people don’t bail.

Ok “Zelda Monster Truck Simulator” would be extreme even by my standards. I was thinking something more along the lines from traditional Mario to Mario Kart. Same franchise, totally different… equally enjoyable.

Anet did not toss all of the tried and true out the window. They upgraded some things, but the core ideas are still there:

Quests -> Hearts and DE’s.
Dungeons -> 5 man just like WoW, but no trinity.
Missions -> Personal Story.

They gave us crafting like other games have, but they tweaked it so that gathering isn’t [its] own profession, and we don’t have to fight each other over gathering nodes. They made making multiples of the same thing not take ages, and we can help level our characters with it, but it’s core is still pretty much the same thing you’d find in most other games.

They are striving to do something different. They don’t want to just hand us instanced raids like every other game. They don’t want to do player housing, or guilds, like every other game. (Just to name a couple) Will it be absolutely totally, radically different? Not necessarily. The core, basic ideas will be there. They just want to give it a little “twist” to make it unique, which I like.

Mario to Mario Kart/Golf/Tennis/Soccer was ok, it was a spinoff, and they were decent games. I was thinking along the lines of Banjo Kazooie Nuts and Bolts kind of a transition, where you pretty much strip out everything which made the game what it was and just throw something at it which you’ve no idea if i would appeal to the audience.

I’m cool with what Anet did with GW2 mostly, but the most I was trying to make was that why not add in raiding? It works, theres demand for it, so, you may as well make one to keep players happy until you find what else works as well.

The LS was something I’m not very happy with though. Its something completely new to a game this size. RuneScape did it but that game is a lot less complex to update I would imagine. So they basically took the biggest area of a game which keeps people playing, the updates, and tried to do something completely untested and new with it.

That risk is massive, and lo and behold, they screwed it up and now theres a ton of dissatisfied players. I’m not saying I’m right, but personally I would’ve worked on DLCs for the main bulk of the content and bring out smaller patches in between DLC releases until I found out what works for the smaller releases.

That way I can still claim the game regularly updates, whilst avoiding putting all my eggs in one basket.

10

chars of 15

rjnemer.7816:

CHIPS.6018:

It is important to keep in mind that GW1 had almost no end game. Sure there were random arena, underworld and FoW. But those are not great end game by any measure.

In GW1 the end game was starting an alt character. It was so alt friendly that I had 9 characters. Many other players I know had more. It took players hours to plan out their character. They have to pick the skills. They have to set the traits. They had to equip the character and get skins for them. But at the same time, those tasks are fairly easy so no one feels it is a grind at all.

GW2 is not alt friendly at all. It takes forever to max one character’s equipments. That’s the core of the problem. I explained this in great details in this thread here.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/1-Alt-Chars-2-Side-Kick-System

Gw1 had no endgame? You sure we were playing the same game? If my memory servers me correctly gw1’s endgame was the best ive ever played. The amount of elite dungeons with the addicting rewards system kept me playing the game for YEARS.

If only Gw2 had even half as good endgame as Gw1

I meant before any expansions. GW1 Prophecies had very little end game except for Underworld and FoW. We cannot compare with GW1 expansions because GW2 hasn’t had any.

Paulytnz.7619:

Vayne.8563:

Xae Isareth.1364:

Vayne.8563:

haviz.1340:

Vayne.8563:

See, I don’t need a final boss…which is my point. I could care less about a final boss. It’s what makes it more of a game and less of a world to me. That’s why I like zones like Hirathi and Straits of Devastation better than other zones. Because it’s less about a big boss and more about an ongoing war.

But other people do and you should acknowledge it. Does Anet want to lose those people or will it give them a proverbial carrot?

I for one like some of the temple events but only under one condition – at most five participating players. Wish they would just swap temple priests with arah priests, that would mean more fun for zergs and for dungeons crawlers!

That’s an interesting comment…that I should acknowledge it. I’ve lost count of how many times that I’ve said that the game I want and my point of view probably doesn’t represent the majority.

However, I do believe that most people thinking dungeon runners and raiders and people who want end game are a huge majority…and that I don’t think is the case.

It is my belief there are more people who solo these games and want unstructured solo content, than there are people who want challenging group content. I can’t prove it, but it’s what I believe.

There’s no real evidence for either side at the moment, but WoW is the single most successful MMO in existence and pretty much every MMO that comes out apart from GW2 has raids. So there must be a substantial demand for them.

Yes I know most WoW players don’t raid, but it’s an iconic feature of the game.

Also, wouldn’t having a MMO based mostly in solo content defeat the purpose of it being a MMO? The 2 Ms ate what makes ESO different from Skyrim.

Okay so WoW has raids and WoW is successful. Baseball stadiums have hot dogs, but hot dogs aren’t why people go to the ball park. The fact is, before you can get to raids in WoW you have to do a whole lot of other stuff and people who do that often don’t go any further.

But there’s another bit of information here that can also mislead. How popular WoW is is completely irrelevant to traditional end game. First, WoW came out at a time when there was almost no competition. They were piggybacking off the mad success of an RTS with the same name. The company had a ton of money to advertise their product that didn’t come from that product.

So it’s popularity is partly based on timing, and partly based on the deepness of its pockets as well as what actually is in the game.

I think it’s a mistake to look at WoW as a winning game combination based on any single factor of it. If I had to guess, I’d say timing was the biggest factor of WoW’s success. Certainly the MMO field when it came out wasn’t rife with competition and there were absolutely no free MMOs.

Have to disagree with you here sorry Vayne. Search for something called “Runescape”, been out 12+ years and there has ALWAYS been a FREE version available. It is a very successful game as well with MILLIONS of players and over 100+ servers which is what we would call worlds here….

Okay there was one free MMO at that time. But also at that time, Runescape wasn’t competition for WoW. It was still a completely different type of game. My kids played it.

Regardless of that the meaning of what I was saying stands. Today you have Dungeon and Dragons Online for free, Lord of the Rings for free, Star Wars The Old Republic for free, Age of Conan for free, Star Trek Online for free. Look at the competition with free to play MMOs now, look at the IPs, the brands, the companies behind these titles.

I can’t imagine anyone can look at runescape as a free game and compare it to WoW. Where as today, there are free well known IPs out there. Basically WoW entered an area competing with a tiny handful of games compared to what’s out there now. That situation will never exist for MMOs again, so no MMO will ever be able to have the same success.

What is considered end-game?

Since I consider everything that comes after the main segment of the game (PvE open world/Personal Story) to be end-game, that would include bi-weekly LS content, Fractals/explorables, and World PvP. So I would rate it 7/10.

But if you go by strictly everquest/wow endgame which encompasses only hard dungeons and farming, I’d say 3/10.

For Endgame:
I want a new Campaign on the Personal Storyline and new zones to explore and do contents I enjoy! I love more new dungeons, Story Dungeons and especially hardcore Jumping puzzles!

And Lots of hidden contents and mini-dungoens!

With tons of exclusive rewards for each content above!

I DONT WANT:
New Level CAP!
RAIDS – No Thanks!
GearTreadmill – HELL NO

I left other MMO for this for a reason! lol

So called “Endgame” for me is pretty important. I consider what my player does at level cap (mostly themeparks have levels so) endgame. That can be anything and ever expanding as long as it’s fun.

I like GW2 because with scaling, the entire game feels like endgame.
Whether it’s WvW or dungeons or just messing around in different maps or spvp. I can still do all of that at cap (infact, it’s pretty much all we have).

I hope in the future though GW2 takes its predecessor’s route and every zone going further is level 80 with the exception of possible new starting zones for new races.
Guild Wars was so good in that respect.

As far as having Raiding as an option for Additional endgame content, I’m all for it. It doesn’t need to have a treadmill attached to it. I didn’t mind WoW raids. I would have still done them though even if they didn’t have the upgrades you needed to progress. There are other ways to progress, AR in this game is a tiny example. Resist gear and fluff items are a perfect way to get players to do content. (Gold for time too)

I don’t know how many times I ran ZG in WoW all the way up to Wrath trying to get a tiger. I also liked raiding because of the numbers aspect. 10/20 mans felt like just the right amount of people to me. 5 is cool for smaller dungeons, but raids just felt more epic. More sense of danger because you didn’t want to be the guy to accidentally walk to far only to pull a group that would come in and wipe 20 ppl. Most sense of many working together which is incidentally why I play MMO’s to begin with.

I will say that open world here, zerging army ant style wears a lil thin these days. All that for one mob that you can’t even see while clobbering it?

Usually I will gravitate to sandbox with emphasis on skill based when I want a world because those type of games tend to have options that are similar to real world aspects. Cut down a tree, it’s gone forever til you plant a new one. Build a home. Build a Town. Fight off other players or fight off wildlife.

Themeparks usually have specified content at level cap (because themeparks usually have levels). It makes sense to have something for players to do to keep them playing that particular character. Doesn’t matter to me what that is as long as it’s fun. Call it what you want, most call it endgame.

Players want options. Some players who are bored here are so because there aren’t any options that fit what they find fun enough to keep them playing. I personally am nearing that point, but not there yet.

gw end game ? oooo the things that u do entire game just u grind more :P i miss end game guys seriosly raids moustly and massive caracter progresion so i would sey for me is 10