In my opinion, Infusions are going too far
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When Colin fronted a group of questioners about ascended gear originally, he said straight out that people should complain about it if they want, but avoid the slippery slope argument. Anet doesn’t want to make ascended gear massively OP and the more ascended gear they add, the more ways to get it will be added.
I do feel people who only play one format of the game (just WvW or just PvE but not dungeons) will take longer to “catch up”. But as long as they can play all the content in the game (the high level fractals being an acceptable exception since you can get ascended gear by running the fractals anyway) I don’t see the problem.
Or rather I see this as a problem of perception and inference rather than fact. Anet is going to do this. Anet is going to do that. They’ll introduce more new tiers. The sky is falling.
Most people, the vast majority, don’t care much about ascended gear. The people who most care about it are hard core WvWers and min-maxers. I’m not convinced either group makes up the bulk of the population of the game.
Most people, the vast majority, don’t care much about ascended gear. The people who most care about it are hard core WvWers and min-maxers. I’m not convinced either group makes up the bulk of the population of the game.
So basically, we got two populations in GW2 : the hardcore WvWers and the min-maers that complain about ascended gear, and the people that don’t care that the gear exists?
Pray tell me then, is there someone that is happy that the gear exists at all? :p
When Colin fronted a group of questioners about ascended gear originally, he said straight out that people should complain about it if they want, but avoid the slippery slope argument. Anet doesn’t want to make ascended gear massively OP and the more ascended gear they add, the more ways to get it will be added.
Up to now, it didn’t actually follow that pattern. Not only the avenues of getting ascended are very limited, any new stuff required different methods and wasn’t accessible through old ones. WvW addition will change it a bit, but not much, since it wil still require laurels – and not all currently existing ascended gear will be available there anyway.
All the ascended gear is currently hidden behind either restrictive timelocks, a very specific mode of gameplay, or both. Nothing so far suggests that it is going to change anytime soon.
the high level fractals being an acceptable exception since you can get ascended gear by running the fractals anyway
No, you can’t. No amulets or earrings in fractals.
And yes, it is funny that the best argument ascended apologetics can come with is that “people do not care about this stuff”. If they don’t, why introduce it at all?
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
When Colin fronted a group of questioners about ascended gear originally, he said straight out that people should complain about it if they want, but avoid the slippery slope argument. Anet doesn’t want to make ascended gear massively OP and the more ascended gear they add, the more ways to get it will be added.
Up to now, it didn’t actually follow that pattern. Not only the avenues of getting ascended are very limited, any new stuff required different methods and wasn’t accessible through old ones. WvW addition will change it a bit, but not much, since it wil still require laurels – and not all currently existing ascended gear will be available there anyway.
All the ascended gear is currently hidden behind either restrictive timelocks, a very specific mode of gameplay, or both. Nothing so far suggests that it is going to change anytime soon.
the high level fractals being an acceptable exception since you can get ascended gear by running the fractals anyway
No, you can’t. No amulets or earrings in fractals.
And yes, it is funny that the best argument ascended apologetics can come with is that “people do not care about this stuff”. If they don’t, why introduce it at all?
I have always found the defense from insignificance amusing. If the best defense of something is that it is insignificant, well, that’s just pretty sad.
Those arguing against VP are not arguing from a slippery slope argument or from inference as opposed to fact. VP is an extremely well-known element in game design. VP is what VP is. It does what it does. It was added for a reason and that reason is for it to do what VP does. To argue that this is slippery slope is tantamount to putting together a puzzle of 100 white pieces and then suggesting that we will have a black puzzle upon completion. The problems associated with VP, and they have already been well articulated on the forums, are not problems of implementation, they are problems with VP itself.
The issue goes deeper than just ascended gear and is an issue with the flexibility of stats and storage.
Consider of the three rings I have on my guardian.
Berserkers Ring of the Berserker
Knights Ring of the Berserker
Soldiers Ring of the Berserker
Instead of having three rings, why can’t I just have a drop down box which lets me select the type of ring and another drop down for the type of jewel?
I still need to acquire the gear but it become more like a dye where I can select the one I want to use.
The same idea with ascended amulets,
Berserker Amulet with +5 agony
Berserker Amulet with +20% gold
Berserker Amulet with +15% karma
Do I really need three individual items? Can’t the infusion slot just become a drop down select box with a list of infusions you have collected? I don’t mind them doubling or even tripling the cost of infusions even if they made this quality of life update.
In fact, I would be happy to pay 1k tokens per dungeon armour piece just to have it bound to my character like a dye and choose it as a cosmetic.
(edited by defrule.7236)
I would agree that if you want to specialize with a single character that getting several sets of ascended gear with different infusions is a nuisance. Some people might welcome the extra grind but personally I don’t like progression and I don’t look forward to making space for everything. I already have 8 bags on my warrior because I bought several sets of armor/trinkets/weapons just to play the class in different ways(support, condi dmg, raw dmg, cc, etc.) How am I to replace all this gear with ascended and then get a version for fractals/wvw/farming and make it all fit(not to mention the huge grind)?
Now to be fair, infusions have minor bonuses but unless anet is planning on putting AR on the WvW infusions then there’s already two distinct sets to acquire without further discussion.
I spent a great deal of time playing GW1 and later a bit of LotRO.
GW1 is a bit like GW2 in that you focus more on cosmetics than exclusive raid-style gear that gives your character very tangible advantages. The difference is that the stats are not on the gear but rather you get a pool of stat points that gets larger as you level. Once you reach max level(a mere 20), you can spend those points how you please and refund them(any outpost and without paying an NPC) as you please. Armor(only 5 pieces, no jewelry) had a few upgrade slots that would provide very minute bonuses but they generally weren’t so important you had to had several sets of armor to do different things.
LotRO is much like WoW and the game revolves around gear acquisition(stats not cosmetics), so I expect this kind of thing in LotRO. I ended up with one character because I hated the prolonged and boring leveling process that gets worse everytime they raise the level cap. This one character had multiple, multiple pieces of gear for adjustment to different roles where needed.
I remember thinking.. GW1’s system is so simple and yet amazingly effective, I don’t need to accrue much gear to do what I want. I was really able to contrast and appreciate a good design.. then came GW2. The need to acquire gear is firmly in place and it has an artificial feeling as if they wanted to control our statistical balance and make gear more of a focal point than in GW1.
So to summarize I guess what I’m saying is that GW2 is artificially forcing importance on gear when we could have just had the simple system GW1 provided. Now I’m sure some folks would say but then what do we aim for? Well at some point progression shouldn’t be important but rather playing the actual game… it’s the moment to moment gameplay that should matter. If I had my way there’d be no leveling.
So to summarize I guess what I’m saying is that GW2 is artificially forcing importance on gear when we could have just had the simple system GW1 provided. Now I’m sure some folks would say but then what do we aim for? Well at some point progression shouldn’t be important but rather playing the actual game… it’s the moment to moment gameplay that should matter. If I had my way there’d be no leveling.
See I like this sentiment. At the same time I cry a little inside every time it’s said by someone that actively focuses on things like getting multiple full sets of ascended gear to progress.
So to summarize I guess what I’m saying is that GW2 is artificially forcing importance on gear when we could have just had the simple system GW1 provided. Now I’m sure some folks would say but then what do we aim for? Well at some point progression shouldn’t be important but rather playing the actual game… it’s the moment to moment gameplay that should matter. If I had my way there’d be no leveling.
See I like this sentiment. At the same time I cry a little inside every time it’s said by someone that actively focuses on things like getting multiple full sets of ascended gear to progress.
That is the difference between how you’d want the game to be (and how it was advertised as) and how the game actually is.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
That is the difference between how you’d want the game to be (and how it was advertised as) and how the game actually is.
Disagree on that. The game certainly doesn’t have GW1’s level of convenience when it comes to stat distribution and switches between playstyle but the sentiment of “progression shouldn’t be as important as enjoying the game” is still perfectly viable to play by in this game, even when switching between equipment sets. The trade-off is of course that focusing on progression is a nuisance (i.e. not enjoyable). And really, it’s only a nuisance when talking about Precursors or Ascended items. Prior to Ascended (and I suppose that ludicrous Diminishing Return drop mechanic) the only time I saw this discussion pop up was when people who wanted progression were arguing for it.
That is the difference between how you’d want the game to be (and how it was advertised as) and how the game actually is.
Disagree on that. The game certainly doesn’t have GW1’s level of convenience when it comes to stat distribution and switches between playstyle but the sentiment of “progression shouldn’t be as important as enjoying the game” is still perfectly viable to play by in this game, even when switching between equipment sets. The trade-off is of course that focusing on progression is a nuisance (i.e. not enjoyable). And really, it’s only a nuisance when talking about Precursors or Ascended items. Prior to Ascended (and I suppose that ludicrous Diminishing Return drop mechanic) the only time I saw this discussion pop up was when people who wanted progression were arguing for it.
Oh, yes, definitely. Prior to Ascended, that is.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Oh, yes, definitely. Prior to Ascended, that is.
Key thing to remember is that the game is still the same other than Ascended and high-level Fractals. Which is exactly why it’s still viable to not focus on it and just enjoy the gameplay.
Ever since Fractals the discussion has reversed from “wow this lack of progression is nice and relaxing” to “wow this progression is stressful” and bearing in mind what I just said, I don’t entirely understand why. Ascended as progression in its current state is more or less negligible so I really have a hard time understanding the people that grind it out at the cost of their enjoyment instead of neglecting it (just to clarify I mean specifically the people that grind out ascended even knowing that they don’t enjoy it. I perfectly understand the people that do enjoy grinding it out).
This is getting a little off-topic though.
(edited by Archmortal.1027)
It’s kind of like…. mmorpgs are less about the gaming and more about a social experience that happens to have some game-like elements. People come on these games to hang out with friends and it even cultivates a sort of high-school mentality where popularity matters and everyone gravitates toward cliques. So it mimics real life in that people want a superior character, statistically and/or cosmetically because somehow in this sort of mmo microcosm, it’s a status symbol and it matters.
I hate to say it but the model of vertical progression is a sign of the times and the reality is even arenanet is using this concept to appeal to the average mmo gamer. I always thought the GW franchise was safe from this mentality, but it’s about the bottom line.. still waiting for an mmorpg made for gamers.
Most people, the vast majority, don’t care much about ascended gear. The people who most care about it are hard core WvWers and min-maxers. I’m not convinced either group makes up the bulk of the population of the game.
So basically, we got two populations in GW2 : the hardcore WvWers and the min-maers that complain about ascended gear, and the people that don’t care that the gear exists?
Pray tell me then, is there someone that is happy that the gear exists at all? :p
I’ve seen people post that they’re happy with it. As I’ve said in a number of threads, there are extremists who will never be satisfied unless their way is the only way. So those who can’t live with vertical progression at all left the game, and it was a significant hit on the game’s population. Many others didn’t like it for felt uncomfortable with it, but gave it a chance.
On the other end of the spectrum were people who would NOT play the game just for cosmetic gear—at all. They care only about stats and the look of the gear is largely irrelevant to them. Those people want to grind stuff. They want to work for a couple of percentage points more. When that stuff wasn’t in the game, many of those people didn’t continue to play the game. In their mind there was nothing to work for. They certainly weren’t going to work for skins.
Anet made a compromise. They lost the people who need BIG stat increases and the people who wanted NO stat increases…but most of the population are somewhere in the middle. I like having stuff to work for….as long as I don’t absolutely need it to do content.
So I’m happy with the way things are, because I don’t find ascended gear too hard to get. In fact, I have more ascended rings now than I can possibly use, even with all the alts I have.
However, I’m not one of the people who must have BIS gear on every alt in every slot.
That is the difference between how you’d want the game to be (and how it was advertised as) and how the game actually is.
Disagree on that. The game certainly doesn’t have GW1’s level of convenience when it comes to stat distribution and switches between playstyle but the sentiment of “progression shouldn’t be as important as enjoying the game” is still perfectly viable to play by in this game, even when switching between equipment sets. The trade-off is of course that focusing on progression is a nuisance (i.e. not enjoyable). And really, it’s only a nuisance when talking about Precursors or Ascended items. Prior to Ascended (and I suppose that ludicrous Diminishing Return drop mechanic) the only time I saw this discussion pop up was when people who wanted progression were arguing for it.
I don’t know re the convenience argument. I like being able to switch out skills and sometimes even major traits without running back to a town and having to go back out into the world and start again.
The stat distribution means less to me than being able to change skills at will. Such as when doing the fractals, some bosses I want condition removal for and some mobs I want reflection for and some mobs I want to use blink for mobility. And I can change it up whenever I want.
That wasn’t true in Guild Wars 1. I had eight skills and those eight skills were what I had to finish a dungeon with. In some ways that’s a lot less flexible.
That wasn’t true in Guild Wars 1. I had eight skills and those eight skills were what I had to finish a dungeon with. In some ways that’s a lot less flexible.
That’s one plus for GW2, the addition of an OoC state which allows you to swap skills(and traits, though you can’t refund points) around in most places. However, the skill choices were much broader in GW1. You had a huge pool of skills for each weapon/magic type as well as a number of utility skills which could be further augmented by a secondary class. Some classes could utilize weapons from secondaries very, very well.. rangers with daggers come to mind. You could also play one type of weapon several different ways by the skills you chose to bring. In GW2, your class can only use certain weapons and the skill bars are fixed… there’s pretty much just one way to use a particular weapon without swapping classes. I feel if you really think hard about it(don’t knee jerk), GW1’s skill system was far more flexible and had more depth—and that’s just the skill system.. the stats are a whole ’nother can of worms.
Before someone does knee jerk and say “why don’t you go play GW1!?!?!” you should know that playing and enjoying a game doesn’t mean you need to be biased and treat it like your progeny. I prefer to be honest about these things and GW2 does have some short comings. Not to mention GW1 is pretty stale and basically a ghost town at this stage.. all good things come to an end, GW2 might be your favorite thing ever but it will get old, depopulate, lose it’s luster and you’ll move on.
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