Guild Wars 2

SneakyLemon.8461:

AoE type builds generally take less skill to play, I think this change will help PvP immensely. People need to overcome and adapt rather than wish for things not to change.

Less skill to play?

Say that to my grenade kit, which I have to presume my ennemy moving patern to make it hit.

Say that to my bomb, wich take 1 sec to explod after I set them at my feet.

Say that to my flamethrower, which will miss 50% if someone decide to move. Say that to number 2 from FT, that require me to time and measure my shot so that it will only hit at 600 range, not too close and not too far, for average damage.

Now I will ask you : How hard is it to land your HeartSeeker? Oh really it’s a leaping skill? Oh It does immense damage? And it even AUTOTARGET? Wow, you have it hard man.

Reduce AoE damage, remove caps.

Or do as WoW did/does and remove caps but split damage between number of mobs affected. Or does GW2 do this already?

Either way, caps suck, but I’m not against reducing AoE damage.

As soon as people hear the word nerf they start freaking out. Which is normal.

A more elaborate explaination about your design philosophy and intended gaming experience would go a long way at calming people down. Because then they would understand the big picture.

How about you give us a third weapon to swap to? One for Melee, one for ranged and one for AoE. I know I would like more skills to use instead of just 10+ 3.

SneakyLemon.8461:

AoE type builds generally take less skill to play, I think this change will help PvP immensely. People need to overcome and adapt rather than wish for things not to change.

I would like to know how you have reached this conclusion? AoE skills in general require two things:

PVP side they require tactical use because they are extremely easy to avoid. Nearly all of them have big “lookit me I’m about to do AoE damage sign” or then work as patches doing damage over time. The end result is same. AoE skills are blocked by same skills that block single target skills (invul, block, dodge). Additionally many effects can be avoided by simply moving. If they also have long cast times (as opposed to wind up times) they are extremely easy to interrupt.

Most ranged single target skills track enemy movement making it a no brainer to use them since they can miss only if the target is out of range or they are blocked. Similarly most single target skills chain well so the only requirement for you is to be at range to execute them. They almost always activate instantly or have very low activation times. Especially melee skills. Not to mention a lot of single target melee skills are actually AoEs.

PvE side AoEs have probably more appeal because pretty much every profession can reasonably fight 2-3 enemies at same time. Ironically the professions that can handle most enemies simultaneously (guardians, warriors) also tend to have very strong AoEs. Both in their basic attacks and in other skills.

Comparably necros can fight a lot enemies at same time as well. I can fight about five on my own in Orr but the difference is that I kill the enemies a lot slower than with the guardian who is also capable of fighting those same enemies simultaneously.

My elementalist is also capable of taking down multiple enemies. Certainly a lot faster than the necro and maybe even faster than the guardian. Assuming I use D/D. At the same time a single error makes me eat dirt when facing multiple foes. I mostly use staff because it’s more forgiving because of range. I could never play in a dungeon without staff. Veteran enemies are my bane even with the staff. Especially if theya re ranged. Elementalist is much harder to play than any other profession I have played to level 80. My gear focus is pow/cdam/vit and I’m running 30 fire/10 air/10 water/20 arcana. I have only lately learned of some magical auramancer build that is supposed to make eles unkillable. A profession should not be punished because a few builds.

Kardiamond.6952:

Less skill to play?

Say that to my grenade kit, which I have to presume my ennemy moving patern to make it hit.

Say that to my bomb, wich take 1 sec to explod after I set them at my feet.

Say that to my flamethrower, which will miss 50% if someone decide to move. Say that to number 2 from FT, that require me to time and measure my shot so that it will only hit at 600 range, not too close and not too far, for average damage.

^This.

Only reason I use Grenade Kit in WvWvW is for the Traited Range, so I feel like I’m helping, by scaring the defenders off the wall. If I had a Long Range Single Target weapon, I’d use that in a heartbeat. Rifle, Traited, is only 1200, but then, it’s more of a shotgun.
I hate the Grenade Kit for WvWvW, and General PvE. For the few dungeons I’ve run, I used Grenades as it was healthier for me and the team that I stand back and try to help, while I learn the encounter.

I firmly believe that AoE is fine as it is. If I were to say honestly in WvW I think it is underpowered. I really hate the 5 person max thing.

I personally like the system of actually person targeted aoe and having a radial fall off in dmg. IE target gets full dmg but person on outskirts of ae radius gets 25% of max.

If this is about the group of eles killing armies with synchronized #5 earth dagger skill, whats wrong with it? You have 5 to 10 people coordinated doing some tactical attacks. Would it be the same if you had 5 thieves coordinated on killing 1 person? Their damage and stealth is so ridiculously overpowered that they could go in, kill 1, leave ALIVE, wait 2 seconds, go in again, kill one more, and leave alive again, while eles have to wait 30 seconds for a cooldown, so it would be pretty much the same. Yet after 24/7 complains about thieves and their damage and stealth on the forums, they only see AoE as a problem, and thieves as L2P or buy a faster machine.

alcopaul.2156:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-919RMwyfnk

Dev: “AoE must be OP”

Sooo, the fact that small, highly-skilled squads can effectively dismantle an unorganized zerg by intelligent use of skills, terrain and communication leads Anet to deduce that AoE needs to be “toned down”?

Maybe it was that decent players are using AoE for area denial. Or, it could be that ANet feel zergs were being “unfairly” punished for mindlessly funneling through obvious choke points.

In all seriousness, ANet really needs to have at least one PR person review and/or sit with Devs while they do these livestreams to prevent them from pulling a ‘Jay Wilson’ like they did with this last stream i.e. saying crap that will set player base into an uproar. Saying that you are going to nerf AoE without also putting forth at least an outline or some idea of how you are going to approach said nerf is about one of the worst things the Devs could have done.

You need to understand that some builds can only deal a great amount of damage through AoEs if they spec for so, try balancing the traits instead of nerfing so strong these skills, or replace skills by anothers if the amount of AoEs per set is too high.

Capping number of targets for some AoE isn’t a good idea imo as it takes the AoE factor out of them.

Valento.9852:

You need to understand that some builds can only deal a great amount of damage through AoEs if they spec for so, try balancing the traits instead of nerfing so strong these skills, or replace skills by anothers if the amount of AoEs per set is too high.

Capping number of targets for some AoE isn’t a good idea imo as it takes the AoE factor out of them.

AoE in GW2 has always been capped to max amount of 5 targets. except siege weaponry, which has a cap of 50 targets, apparently.

JonathanSharp.7094

No prob. Some classes have a ton of AOE, while others don’t have as much. So we’re not just going to do a blanket nerf to all AOE – that’s not fair to all classes. We’ll go on a class by class, weapon by weapon basis.

And as I’ve said, we may need to tone something down in one area of the game, but it may be totally fine in another area.

For some weapon sets, the AOE options may be too strong compared to the single target options, which is what we aim to address.

Could you please state the preliminary findings?
Which AoE’s are pinging your radar?
Which Classes/Abilities are on the “Watch List?”
Is there anything, that we as a community, can do to help?

Walse.1749:

in sPvP: AOE is just fine in PvP,

obviously, u lack experience in spvp. likely, you havent played an organized tpvp match. trap rangers, d/d eles, well necros wipe the floor with entire groups of people on point. aoe is MOST broken in spvp.

secondly, as mentioned ad nauseum, aoe was always a problem in PVE. aoe tagging. enough said.

i actually dont see aoe as a problem in wvw. it acts as an excellent zerg deterrent.

JonathanSharp.7094:

No prob. Some classes have a ton of AOE, while others don’t have as much. So we’re not just going to do a blanket nerf to all AOE – that’s not fair to all classes. We’ll go on a class by class, weapon by weapon basis.

And as I’ve said, we may need to tone something down in one area of the game, but it may be totally fine in another area.

For some weapon sets, the AOE options may be too strong compared to the single target options, which is what we aim to address.

Hey John! Thanks for replying to this thread. I had a quick couple of questions that i’d really appreciate an answer too, when you get the chance.

1. When you talk about AoE and changing them, does this include PBAoEs? (Example: Drakes Breath, Whirling Wrath, Mighty Blow, Smite Condition) They’re are different classifications for AoE, for all i know you could be talking about a Chaos Meteor on Ele Staff as much as a Whirlwind attack on Warr/Whirling Wrath on Guardian.

2. We obviously know Necro, Mesmer, Elementalist (and a bit of Guardian too) to be AoE Centric with certain weaponsets/builds. While we know there is an inc nerf, will there be compensations? Like increased single target dps for ele, necro, mesmer? Or skill buffs/fixes (like Fire Grab hit box accuracy, if it was “Fixed” i’d almost consider it a buff ya know?) Basically will there be a Give with the Take

3. There was a mention of “make classes who focus on Single Target dmg stand out more” theres alot of people who could take that in very many different ways. And what defines single target dmg? Ranged shots? Or actual Melee? (I would think melee to be considered psudeo-AoE… just not ranged AoE.)

Thanks again john, i’d appreciate a response if you could manage the time. Hope alls well up there, looking forward to the patch

Marvingy.6327:

Could you please state the preliminary findings?
Which AoE’s are pinging your radar?

well necros
d/d eles
mind wrack

in that order. id be surprised if findings are different.

JonathanSharp.7094:

For some weapon sets, the AOE options may be too strong compared to the single target options, which is what we aim to address.

This. This. This. And this!

This is probably all they meant.

Thank you for clarifying Jonathan Sharp. I was skeptical at first, but your posts really cleared up my worries.

It will be very interesting, to say the least. Speaking as an Engineer, I hope the Wrench Kit will be balanced t excel at single target dmg more than Grenade Kit.

And as a Thief, hopefully this will resolve the Unload vs Cluster Shot fiasco.

Also I’m going to comment something about necro internal weapon/skill balance because that’s the profession I’ve most hours with as it was my initial character and I got my full map exploration with that guy after all.

Staff is a handy weapon because it allows me to run pow/cdam/vit necro which is very survivable and powerful (I mean for a necro). It also helps that the staff skills are instant casting and their recharges are reasonable. Essentially you have always something to do. It has a single glaring flaw though: it kills extremely slow. This is why I nowadays play my necro only to farm.

Axe is just pathetic when compared to other single target weapons. The problem here is that Axe plays like a debuff weapon. You can’t get decent damage out of it before you have maximum vulnerability stack if even then. It’s basically same as ranger axe except ranger can do similar damage in AoE format due bouncing.

Scepter is even worse than axe. It’s a single target condition weapon. This means that other professions (and even staff necro) have killed a group of enemies while first scepter targer is about halfway down of its hp bar. Multiple professions can apply nearly maximum stack of bleed instantly. The “condition” weapon of the necro takes has troubles building significant stack of anything. You are basically forced to select utilities that spread conditions.

Dagger is just amazing. I mean it’s amazing how a single weapon can make you wish to kill yourself. Its damage is gutted by the meager healing it provides because anet is deathly afraid of combining damage and healing. However it’s still the most damaging choice. It’s also remarkably good in missing targets because of the way how it mixes melee range with actual medium range. Finally (almost) every other melee weapon has an autoattack that hits multiple targets. For some unfathoable reason necro dagger hits just one. Incidently this doubles the frustration when you miss with it. Combine this with long recharges of all other skills and you have a set where a) you spend most of your time missing the basic attack b) then panickly hit a few skills that don’t seem to do nothing. We have a real winner here!

My summary here is: It’s not that the AoE weapon staff is overpowered. It’s just that it’s the only one that actually plays well.

Edit2: nope. Still hits only one.

Does anyone know if ArenaNet’s statement means its because AoE’s are in someway being abused by knowledgeable people or just that most people use it.

Because unless you’re an informed player chances are if you made an ele, your most likely to automatically use a staff, same for a nec imo, nerfing it probably wouldn’t stop that player base from using it either lol.

JonathanSharp.7094:

For some weapon sets, the AOE options may be too strong compared to the single target options, which is what we aim to address.

I agree.

It actually is. Even bosses and champs do too much. What I’m specifically seeing is that pets don’t have enough defense or hitpoints. It’s happened before in other games but instead of nerfing these abilities, they gave the pets a 90% damage reduction to all AOE spells. So anytime a ranger or ele decides they can wipe out all three of the mesmers illusions or all 8 of the engineers turrets it doesn’t work.

Other games have needed this and it’s worked fine for years now preventing people from using solely AOE’s in pvp. It’s one of the many things in mmo history that I’m finding that Anet doesn’t seem to know oddly. Just like how DR and loot manipulation harms players instead of stopping bots.

Kain Francois.4328:

JonathanSharp.7094:

For some weapon sets, the AOE options may be too strong compared to the single target options, which is what we aim to address.

This. This. This. And this!

This is probably all they meant.

Thank you for clarifying Jonathan Sharp. I was skeptical at first, but your posts really cleared up my worries.

It will be very interesting, to say the least. Speaking as an Engineer, I hope the Wrench Kit will be balanced t excel at single target dmg more than Grenade Kit.

And as a Thief, hopefully this will resolve the Unload vs Cluster Shot fiasco.

What can a staff elementalist expect as almost all skills are AoE?

Same for most of our skills (scepter, mh dagger), seriously I won’t re-roll and anything, I’ve always played mages cause they are known for their serious nice AoE capability in exchange for their survivability, I have this feeling as of now for eles, if they nerf AoE too much then what is left for this AoE class? lol

JonathanSharp.7094:

For some weapon sets, the AOE options may be too strong compared to the single target options, which is what we aim to address.

So let me get this right. I run staff elementalist in WvW. You propose to nerf Lava Font, Ice Spike, Eruption, and Meteor Shower … so that I can spam auto-attack more?

Do you see why this has some people concerned?

They are gonna nerf aoe and buff single target dps (thieves/warriors). Funny they say they read the forums yet none of them talked about these two, just aoe, the bane of all imbalance in this game, nice finding!

a radial fall off in aoe damage would be nice I think. Would make combat even more engaging and active since people will avoid standing in the middle of an AoE field and it’d make AoE damage over-all more single target and more realistic.
But if it were a nerf to the elementalist aoe making elementalists something thats only there for decoration and not an actual viable class I’ll quit gw2 since the bunker build, staff build and S/D builds all rely on AoE and those three are currently the only viable builds in the class. Maybe you’d do better by buffing the focus since nobody seems to be using it.

AoE for the 4 areas (IMO):

sPvP: AoE seems to be powerful only in certain situations (bunker build comes to mind). Otherwise, it just dies out. I rarely play sPvP with my Elementalist, so I don’t have too much to go on.

PvE (open world): AoE does seem strong. AoE tagging makes it hard for single target focused characters to get a tag in on mobs during events. With 5+ people focusing AoE onto a single group of mobs and causing them to die within seconds, it just doesn’t feel right.

Dungeons: Depending on the dungeon, AoE could either be a blessing or overkill. If a group wants to try to kill all the available mobs (trash) and not spend all day doing so, AoE is currently needed. Some fights AoE speeds it up quickly and makes the fight a little boring (some fractals).

WvW: Unless the idea is to make it ZvZ, AoE is needed. If there is any nerf to AoE, zergs will just be a little harder to beat and will require a counter zerg. You don’t like the idea that people are throwing AoE on a downed player and causing a lot of damage when others try to revive them? Add some counter-measures that the players can use to help avoid the AoE damage, but don’t nerf the damage.

As an addition: If you are going to nerf AoE, allow Elementalists to swap weapons at least. Not that it will do any good, but it would allow for more skills and it might balance things out.

hharry.1967:

They are gonna nerf aoe and buff single target dps (thieves/warriors). Funny they say they read the forums yet none of them talked about these two, just aoe, the bane of all imbalance in this game, nice finding!

That’s my concern too the two classes that need buffing the least. I hope that’s not the case.

The classes that need buffing the most are mesmer engineer and single target necro.

Nerfing AOE really won’t solve the problems with the class imbalance and nerfing classes like mesmer and engineer AOE will further cause serious harm to the imbalance issues those two classes already face.

Valento.9852:

What can a staff elementalist expect as almost all skills are AoE?

Same for most of our skills (scepter, mh dagger), seriously I won’t re-roll and anything, I’ve always played mages cause they are known for their serious nice AoE capability in exchange for their survivability, I have this feeling as of now for eles, if they nerf AoE too much then what is left for this AoE class? lol

If you actually read Jonathan’s full post

JonathanSharp.7094:

Mirta.5029:

JonathanSharp.7094:

Just wanted to let you guys know that we’re reading this thread.

Your logic, reasons, anecdotes and ideas are being listened to. Also keep in mind, that as I said yesterday, a skill can be a balance problem in one area of the game, but underpowered in another. That’s the nature of using one set of #‘s to balance across all areas of the game. So we’re keeping that in mind as we look at this. We may need to do different tweaks in different areas of the game.

We’re also not going to make a knee jerk reaction to this. We’re still gathering data, watching player trends, and having meetings on all possible ramifications from possible changes.

thank you for the answer, it calmed me down. If you think there’s a problem with AoE in WvW, nerf it in WvW, but not PVE, because nerfing AoE in PVE when some classes already have problems would effectively kill off engineers and staff builds of mesmer, elementalist and necromancer.

No prob. Some classes have a ton of AOE, while others don’t have as much. So we’re not just going to do a blanket nerf to all AOE – that’s not fair to all classes. We’ll go on a class by class, weapon by weapon basis.

And as I’ve said, we may need to tone something down in one area of the game, but it may be totally fine in another area.

For some weapon sets, the AOE options may be too strong compared to the single target options, which is what we aim to address.

I don’t think you get this whole thing at all.

domxnik.1453:

I don’t think you get this whole thing at all.

Enlighten us then.

SoPP.7034:

domxnik.1453:

I don’t think you get this whole thing at all.

Enlighten us then.

This was suppose to go to someone else in another forum. Some reason my reply was merged with this one…

If the last video wasnt enough, here’s another one, warrior solo lupicus! Yes nerf Aoe please.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-WJP0LR5VU

hharry.1967:

If the last video wasnt enough, here’s another one, warrior solo lupicus! Yes nerf Aoe please.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-WJP0LR5VU

What are you trying to get at, dude?

Kintari.4172:

… so that I can spam auto-attack more?

Do you see why this has some people concerned?

This would be annoying. Especially since those autoattacks are so god kitten slow casting…

I fail to see how AoE’s themselves are such a problem. I also fail to see the “obvious option” issue.

My main character is an elementalist. I have one character of each profession and I use some of them to play PvP.

Concerning my elementalist, when I’m against multiple targets (specially when they’re low health targets) I usually go staff (for the AoE), and when I’m against bosses (or single high health targets) I go daggers.

The higher damage output from the daggers that justifies my weapon swap is restricted to my main target. The AoE’s from the dagger skills that hit those nearby do not hit as hard as the staff’s AoE’s and are on longer cooldowns, so it’s actually an approach option. I can choose to do major damage to one single target and minor to those nearby or to do medium damage to everybody.

I face the exact same approach decisions while in WvW. That’s the reason why I usually roam around (or get from one place to another) with daggers on. When I’m attacking or defending a keep I usually put the staff on.

I try to cast Meteor Shower on the enemy army (I don’t like the word “zerg” :P) when I can just to try to force them back and/or slow down the siege. I, however, never intend to actually kill anyone but those extremely not smart enough (:P) to leave the area and wait for the skill to end. It’s important to say that they also have to be extremely unlucky to be killed by a Meteor Shower, since the meteors spread a lot. That’s when I’m not pulled by necromancers or mesmers to my death or interrupted either by interrupting skills or raw damage before I can do enough channeling.

I believe the AoE system in its current state is OK. Actually, I love that it exists as it does. The game is better because of it. Nerfing AoE will remove a big component from the game and a lot of good strategies (the chokepoint approach for small army tactics for example) from WvW.

Please do not reduce the effectiveness of AoE in WvW or anywhere else. It is an element that adds a lot to the game and should not be reduced/removed.

If there is an imbalance (which I fail to see) between professions in this matter, give the ones that lack it more AoE options instead of removing them from the professions that have it in abundance.

It’s been said that AoE is “too predominant” in WvW. In my humble opinnion, it is natural that AoE is the chosen option when dealing with mass enemies. It is not hard to picture. In real world armies set up machineguns (highly spread bullets meant to hit many targets in a cone) and not sniper rifles to counter the advance of enemy armies.

domxnik.1453:

If you actually read Jonathan’s full post

His post says exactly nothing. I can make statements like that too. “I think the game developers plans regarding AoEs are not currently in agreement with the community and would like to address this”. That’s about as informative comment as his comment was.

Way too vague. I’ve already “misinterpret” their various statements many times and the end result has often been completely different what I expected.

Is he saying that they will do adjustments for PvP, WvW and PvE each?
What exactly in the data has made them reach this conclusion? Give data and details.
Do the changes target targetted AoEs, PBAoEs, “cleave” attacks or what?
Which professions and weapons are most likely to be affected?
What are the proposed fixes?

Details man details. Just saying “be calm” is not going to work. Clearly there are some plans already because they mentioned the AoE change. Honestly I have never heard ANet developer say anything concrete and worthwhile before the change is already made.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Just wanted to let you guys know that we’re reading this thread.

Your logic, reasons, anecdotes and ideas are being listened to. Also keep in mind, that as I said yesterday, a skill can be a balance problem in one area of the game, but underpowered in another. That’s the nature of using one set of #‘s to balance across all areas of the game. So we’re keeping that in mind as we look at this. We may need to do different tweaks in different areas of the game.

We’re also not going to make a knee jerk reaction to this. We’re still gathering data, watching player trends, and having meetings on all possible ramifications from possible changes.

If the problem with AOE has to do with SPvP. Then just add some magic field/barrier around the capture points when defending. That reduces AOE damage coming from outside the capture circle. That will make players using AoE to have to enter the capture point to use AOE to full effectiveness.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Mirta.5029:

JonathanSharp.7094:

Just wanted to let you guys know that we’re reading this thread.

Your logic, reasons, anecdotes and ideas are being listened to. Also keep in mind, that as I said yesterday, a skill can be a balance problem in one area of the game, but underpowered in another. That’s the nature of using one set of #‘s to balance across all areas of the game. So we’re keeping that in mind as we look at this. We may need to do different tweaks in different areas of the game.

We’re also not going to make a knee jerk reaction to this. We’re still gathering data, watching player trends, and having meetings on all possible ramifications from possible changes.

thank you for the answer, it calmed me down. If you think there’s a problem with AoE in WvW, nerf it in WvW, but not PVE, because nerfing AoE in PVE when some classes already have problems would effectively kill off engineers and staff builds of mesmer, elementalist and necromancer.

No prob. Some classes have a ton of AOE, while others don’t have as much. So we’re not just going to do a blanket nerf to all AOE – that’s not fair to all classes. We’ll go on a class by class, weapon by weapon basis.

And as I’ve said, we may need to tone something down in one area of the game, but it may be totally fine in another area.

For some weapon sets, the AOE options may be too strong compared to the single target options, which is what we aim to address.

I have to wonder what events and circumstances has led to ae being identified as a problem. My personal experience is running small groups against larger numbers. In these circumstances we rely on ae to put pressure on the larger force but the ae cap of 5 severely hinders us.

If I could make general suggestions it would be to make ae skills require more thought and execution (‘skill shot’ instead of ‘click button for bags’) and in return lift the 5 target limit.

It only has to do with Thieves now feeling like they can’t gank everything they see. Check the Thief subforums, and the SPVP subforums, then check the history of the posters. Just one class who is upset because they actually have to work for a kill.

Here’s the problem I see with nerfing AoEs… in WvW, prior to attacking we’ll often “ball up”. The idea is to get as many people in a small area for the very reason that AoE caps at 5 people, so we effectively nerf the AoE ourselves by giving it too many targets. If there’s 25 of us only 20% take damage. If you reduce AoE damage further this balling technique will become even more prevalent than it already is… heck, it’ll likely become meta if it isn’t already. Ball up and giggle at the elementalists! Wooo!

In WvW there’s a lot of people wishing for the opposite… lift the cap on AoE so there’s an effective tool against the zerg. You’ll see zergs of 30, 40 or more people coming at you and if they’re tight they’re nearly impossible to handle. This is, btw, a major reason portal bombing was so effective… instant ball o’ people.

Isn’t there a red ring on the ground that tells you to move you’re about to get hit by ranged AoE? I play WvW most of the time and don’t have a problem with AoE. I have an 80 mesmer, warrior and ele and have put a good amount of time in WvW. Ranged AoE is useless unless in a zerg and even then its so easy to dodge.

I really don’t get where this is coming from. If this escalated from the 4v30 vid or whatever it is………..would you nerf AoE if 4 players killed 30 afk players with AoE because essentially thats what happened. The lesser skilled players stood there in the AoE and made no effort to escape or rush the 4 players. In the end the probably learned something and will be better off in the long run. We were all new at some point and learned the hard way but we are where we are because of it.

I find it a ridiculous argument to say anything in PvP aspect, the only mode is capture the point, the point is little bigger than most AoE’s, obviously people are going to try and force enemies out of the circle, is more efficient to get my enemy(s) out of the circle than killing him with single target DPS. It’s just how the system works.

In PvE, well, sorry, but I’m not buying that, the problem is not people using AoE’s skills even against one mob the problem is the lack of GOOD single target DPS skills in many classes, a Warrior HB could do 16-19k to a single mob if traited and geared (Every 8 seconds), me as a Necro would do about 5k-7k maximun, I can only dream to get a little bit closer if I lay down 2 wells and get Lich Form, So a single skill vs 2 utilities and an elite. Of course i’m gonna spec into AoE, not for the damage, just for the condition, I dare anyone to show me a good way a Necro can run conditions using single target skills, hell, sometimes my group need to kill only one mob and I have a really bad time with my AoE’s.

In Wv3, I’m sorry, until ArenaNet makes a good system to change into various builds it’s simply ineffective, even If I’m roaming or about to engage a 2vs2 o 3vs3 and know I can do better changing my spec It’s just to much time, just impossible, change all gear, re-spec traits, change weapons and utilities, If i know I’m gonna face a lot of enemies how on earth someone would think that is better to spec into Single Target DPS Duelist-Style spec?

And more than that, how a competent company would think that cornering the player to do it by nerfing the most logical option is a good way to behave?

And even if all this didn’t exist how is this solution better than fixing the classes so the players have a chance to actually run different and useful builds?

Even the most common, cheap, useful and versatile way of dealing with players, while on attack or defense, is the arrow cart, an AoE weapon. It seems like the system is built around that, cannons, catapults, trebuchets,oil, why would people don’t follow that logical and effective ideas?

nerva.7940:

trap rangers …. wipe the floor with entire groups of people on point.

Funniest thing I’ve read in this entire thread.

Speaking from the perspective of a ranger who has dabbled in sPvP and WvW….if your group is getting wiped by a trap ranger, then you are really, really bad at this game. The damage is bunk and the conditions not nearly effective enough as most anyone with a wit of sense will be carrying something to remove conditions. Being a trap ranger was FAR more viable in GW1, and even there it wasn’t very desirable.

killcannon.2576:

It only has to do with Thieves now feeling like they can’t gank everything they see. Check the Thief subforums, and the SPVP subforums, then check the history of the posters. Just one class who is upset because they actually have to work for a kill.

Not all Thieves use stealth. My Thief uses AOE short bow. But if Anet Nerf’s AOE I will have to use stealth.

The dumbest tactic right now in WvW zergs is for everyone to stack on each other so AOE can’t damage the same 5 people. With AOE reduced, I don’t see why that would happen more. I really don’t want WvW to be reduced to stack A attack stack B.

The only situation, where AOE is overpowered, compared to any other build, is when doing world events in PVE. Proper mob tagging at those Temple events for example, is impossible without lots of AOE skills, those skills also make the events trivial, even if more and more mobs spawn they will be killed at the same rate as when they are fewer.

That’s not a problem with AOE skills but with event design, for a game that promotes cooperation, those events are selfish, there is a “race” between the players to tag as many mobs as possible, often disregarding the leveled Veteran mobs because they aren’t worth the effort (xp/loot wise) and focusing on as many normal mobs as possible. That’s not a problem with AOE or any build, it’s the problem with how these events are designed, and how they give rewards.

What’s the problem with event rewards? They don’t exist, at all. Players don’t do events that use multiple mobs because they are more fun or because they are more rewarding than others AS EVENTS, but because more mobs mean more loot, this is very bad content design, I know the game focuses around the individual, but how about support builds? Anyone that actually buffs his allies or heals, instead of throwing AOEs around is doing it wrong, he won’t get rewarded for actually HELPING and SAVING allies, he might get that Gold Medal for contribution but he won’t get material drops or more item drops that someone who is using AOE to tag more mobs will get.

Easy solution: remove all drops from any mobs that spawn in events. Add a high amount of drops, proportional to the amount of the mobs, in the end reward chest. That way, single target builds, support builds, tanking builds, ALL builds will become viable and the players will start coordinating instead of being mindless AOE spammers. Nerfing AOE skills for the sake of PVE events won’t help much, people will still use AOEs even if their damage is reduced to nothing, because you will still get more contribution, and tag more mobs, therefore more loot.

tl;dr
Regarding AOE in PVE: It’s not that AOE skills are overpowered, the rewards for doing open world events are designed in a way to promote selfish behaviour, as players enter a “race” to tag more mobs, more mobs = more loot.

If they do decide to nerf AOEs, I really hope they do it in a scaling fashion so that 1v1 fights will use different numbers the multi-person fights. Otherwise I feel terrible for staff Elementalists and Elixir engineers. It’s one thing to nerf an AOE so that 1 person can’t drop 4-5 at once, but it’s another for that same nerf to make the damage against a single person be so negligible that you can NEVER win solo fights.

Scaling it so that the AOE does full damage against 1 person, and less damage per person against multiple foes would be the only fair way to nerf AOE damage in regards to almost full AOE builds like staff ele.

Just for fun…

Professions that benefit from reduced AoE effectiveness:

1. Thief (Already the most over-played PvP profession)
2. Mesmer (Their AoE isn’t going to hit many targets anyway)
3. Warrior (Melee becomes more important for single target damage)
4. Guardian (Melee becomes more important for single target damage)
5. DD eles (They’ll be even more FotM because other elementalists will be weakened)

Professions that are weakened from reduced AoE:

1. Non-DD Elementalists (they’ll be the hardest hit with four attunements designed for ranged AOE)
2. Necromancer (their AoE is mostly condition damage which is already weak in PvP)
3. Ranger (Maybe or maybe not, their AoE is already kind of weak though)
4. Engineers (They have many AoE abilities and are easily the weakest profession in the game)

I don’t know if that’s entirely accurate but it’s my assessment.

The big picture…

Basically, this is just further affirmation that ANet is going to do the same thing they did with GW1. If that holds true, this is how ANet will proceed:

1. Balance sPvP for tournaments (6 months)
2. Balance decent professions to all be competitive (6-12 months)
3. Begin experimenting with the weak professions (1 year)
4. Redesign the weak professions (18 months or later)

For the first six months to a year ANet basically won’t balance the professions but will balance the meta instead. They’ll only address the less often played professions (ranger, warrior, engineer currently) when it affects sPvP drastically. Then they’ll spend the next year making unsuccessful changes to the abandoned professions (looks like engineer is the only one for certain right now) before giving them a major overhaul. It’s exactly how it went down during GW1.

What I don’t get though – and it really baffles me – is why ANet would do anything to improve thieves in sPvP. It’s mind-boggling. I’m beginning to wonder if they really do all play thieves because it is so contrary to achieving real balance in sPvP. <O_o>

Zonzai.2341:

What I don’t get though – and it really baffles me – is why ANet would do anything improve thieves in sPvP. It’s mind-boggling to me. I’m beginning to wonder if they really do all play thieves because it is so contrary to achieving real balance in sPvP. <O_o>

Because if we all stop playing other classes and just play thieves then it makes balancing a WHOLE lot easier. =D

Onshidesigns.1069:

killcannon.2576:

It only has to do with Thieves now feeling like they can’t gank everything they see. Check the Thief subforums, and the SPVP subforums, then check the history of the posters. Just one class who is upset because they actually have to work for a kill.

Not all Thieves use stealth. My Thief uses AOE short bow. But if Anet Nerf’s AOE I will have to use stealth.

They aren’t talking about nerfing the less aoe classes really, such as bows on thieves or warriors. It’s the bunker ele that has the devs and spvp players in a twist. Two bunker eles can effectively dual stack healing and condition removal on one another. The current teams don’t know how to counter it, so hence all the boohoo over it. Why it’s necessary to even bring up aoe changes at all to satisfy one specific subset of a subset of a subset of a community is beyond me. But again, I encourage you to head over to those forums and check it out