Guild Wars 2

killcannon.2576:

They don’t do a lot of damage, you have to trade off damage for survivability. I play a d/d ele, takes me forever to kill stuff compared to a damage build, but, it’s hard to kill me too. The people who complain seem to say that it’s “no fun” to play against them, not that they are a threat to their lives. That eventually they will always lose a war of attrition against them. Of course these guys ideas of fun is to instagib people then call them names or insult their profession, so go figure.

Killcannon you’ve had a lot of good observations on the AoE topic in general and the d/d ele. Before I tried to play one I stumbled on videos of a skilled player playing one. It was the first time that being a spectator was truly fun and I watched them obsessively. At no time did it occur to me, oh wow, what an OP spec. He wasn’t burning people down with his AoE. It was the player’s skill that hooked me. In my favorite video I think he may have killed one or two but it was basically a 15 minute clinic on how to PvP—not strategically, assaulting a keep alone is probably a bad idea, but tactically. He was using his abilities, terrain, LOS, and extending fights to his advantage. It did occur to me that here was a spec that rewarded player skill and I wanted to play it. And, it dawned on me overtime as I saw more threads like “when are they going to nerf the d/d ele” that there was trouble ahead. I hope this thread has been helpful to Anet as they consider the issue. Thanks to the OP and thanks to Anet for reading along.

“If your skil does 10 damage to a single target, if you have another skill that have the same opportunity cost but deals 8 damage to 5 targets, the AoE skill is better – we don’t want you to use AoE skills on single target mobs.”

Alright I am going to be really naive here…why not? We are talking about single mobs here aren’t we? How is the 8 damage better on the single mob than the 10 damage? And what is wrong with AoE damage on a single mob? I really don’t understand the statement at all…it just seems like a fabricated “excuse/justification”.

“Same thing with dungeons – right now if you have a lot of AoE you can past encounters by just spamming AoE which is not what we want.” Isn’t that what AoE is all about? Ii seems more a scenario design issue than player ability use issue? Again it just seems like a “fabricated” justification.

JonathanSharp.7094:

No prob. Some classes have a ton of AOE, while others don’t have as much. So we’re not just going to do a blanket nerf to all AOE – that’s not fair to all classes. We’ll go on a class by class, weapon by weapon basis.

And as I’ve said, we may need to tone something down in one area of the game, but it may be totally fine in another area.

For some weapon sets, the AOE options may be too strong compared to the single target options, which is what we aim to address.

We have to remember that this sin’t a blanket nerf!

Stop treating it like it is one!

They already said they’re not going to do a massive blind nerf to AOEs without evaluating each one individual.

I don’t get what everyone’s complaining about. They’re just making a few AOEs hit a tiny bit less (less than an equivalent single target attack). It makes sense doesn’t it? If you had two attacks, one single and one aoe. Your single target hits for 10 while costing the same as your AOE, which happens to hit 20. It makes no sense to use your single target at all on a single target because it misses more easily than your AOE, AND it hits less. So, that AOE would be adjusted to be weaker than your single attack. It’s advantage now is just what an AOE should be. It has area damage.

Simple right? There’s no need to panic like the world is ending. lol.

If you devs don’t like us spamming AOE in dungeons then why you set so many situations need AOE….Seriously what do you expect us to do when facing crowd of mobs, fast-mob-spamming burrows or the other things….

Oldbugga.7029:

“If your skil does 10 damage to a single target, if you have another skill that have the same opportunity cost but deals 8 damage to 5 targets, the AoE skill is better – we don’t want you to use AoE skills on single target mobs.”

Alright I am going to be really naive here…why not? We are talking about single mobs here aren’t we? How is the 8 damage better on the single mob than the 10 damage? And what is wrong with AoE damage on a single mob? I really don’t understand the statement at all…it just seems like a fabricated “excuse/justification”.

“Same thing with dungeons – right now if you have a lot of AoE you can past encounters by just spamming AoE which is not what we want.” Isn’t that what AoE is all about? Ii seems more a scenario design issue than player ability use issue? Again it just seems like a “fabricated” justification.

Because it makes sense that AOE should be good at tackling large groups of enemies whilst single target attacks should be more effective in terms of damage because they only target a single enemy.

It’s a totally valid reason to balance it.

Think of it this way. You are facing 5 enemies with 5 hp and you have a skill that targets one enemy but does 5 damage and a skill that targets all of them but only does 3 damage. The single target skill can kill one of them in one hit whilst the AOE skill would require 2 castings.

You could kill them by using the single target skill 5 times, or by using the AOE skill twice. In this case, killing 5 enemies would be achieved faster by using the AOE skill twice instead of using the single target skill 5 times (once for each enemy) because the cast time would be faster.

Now lets look at a new scenario: there is only one enemy.

In this case, using the single target skill once for an insta kill would be more effective than using the AOE skill twice.
Do you see my illustration?

As it stands, group combat both in and out of WvW is just AOE, AOE, AOE, AOE, when really, we should be looking at the tools we are provided with and using each one to it’s strengths.

Single target skills should excel at taking out single targets and AOE should be good at taking on groups.

Because it makes sense that AOE should be good at tackling large groups of enemies whilst single target attacks should be more effective in terms of damage because they only target a single enemy.

It’s a totally valid reason to balance it.

Not in a game where you have 10 weapon skills, 4 utilities, 1 elite, and can’t swap them out in combat. making any of these slot abilities (weapon or utility) useless in an encounter pushes depth-of-play over a cliff.

They already do this with eles (where about half the abilities on our weapon sets are useless, so they’re just for show), and that profession suffers from fewer viable builds because of it.

I don’t want to spam 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 over and over because an aoe does pathetic damage.

Calsifer.6079:

JonathanSharp.7094:

No prob. Some classes have a ton of AOE, while others don’t have as much. So we’re not just going to do a blanket nerf to all AOE – that’s not fair to all classes. We’ll go on a class by class, weapon by weapon basis.

And as I’ve said, we may need to tone something down in one area of the game, but it may be totally fine in another area.

For some weapon sets, the AOE options may be too strong compared to the single target options, which is what we aim to address.

We have to remember that this sin’t a blanket nerf!

Stop treating it like it is one!

They need to re-design their meta game to reduce enemy density, increase loot reward per defeated unit, and increase the intelligence of enemy units.

THEN we can talk about weakening AOE, but really it wouldn’t need to be weakened then.

For example, i’ve run into a few dungeon pulls where it feels like the vets are played by humans, to the point I always accompany my churning earth with stability, because if I don’t I get interrupted in some way.

THAT is how aoe should be countered. It should not be adjustments to spells, it should be adjustments to AI and an increased proliferation of counter-mechanics.

These two things make gameplay more interesting rather than making people feel less powerful in a game where high enemy hp and any gear that’s not berserker make you feel pretty pathetic.

I feel very bad for D/D eles at this point. They huddled into the build because their damage did not match their horrific survivability, so they had to adopt control and toughness to survive. If fire grab and churning earth take a hit, they may as well hang it up and re-roll, because those are the only things that really do decent single-target damage these days, and theyre.. you guessed it.. aoe.

Calsifer.6079:

Think of it this way. You are facing 5 enemies with 5 hp and you have a skill that targets one enemy but does 5 damage and a skill that targets all of them but only does 3 damage. The single target skill can kill one of them in one hit whilst the AOE skill would require 2 castings.

You could kill them by using the single target skill 5 times, or by using the AOE skill twice. In this case, killing 5 enemies would be achieved faster by using the AOE skill twice instead of using the single target skill 5 times (once for each enemy) because the cast time would be faster.

Except that in your made-up scenario, the AoE attack often has a much longer cooldown in general than the single target attack, which you didn’t take into account.

You also ignored the fact that AoE must be placed (and thus, you can escape all of its damage simply by dodging out of the region) whereas a single-target attack usually cannot be dodged quite so easily, especially if it’s a projectile.

For example, Barrage on a ranger deals 1692 damage on a max of 5 targets for a total of 8460, and Rapid Fire deals 1320 to one target. Barrage clearly deals far more (541% more damage per cast), so based on the devs’ screwy math, Barrage seems far superior.

However, Rapid Fire (10s CD) can be used three times in the same span of time as one Barrage (30s CD), so their overall DPS figures are (1320/10) = 132 DPS and (8460/30) = 282 DPS. Not nearly as superior as it was made to seem, is it? And this is just accounting for damage, let’s look at other factors.

On top of the above info regarding damage, it’s worth noting that an enemy can dodge out of Barrage’s AoE region and escape most of the DPS (in WvW, I’ve rarely seen a player get hit more than four times by Barrage, out of the 12 hits it’s supposed to deal). Rapid Fire, by comparison, shoots ten arrows over an extended time and it can’t always be kited or dodged out of (I’ve witnessed people try to dodge out of my Rapid Fire, and my character just turns and keeps hitting them).

Barrage also kills my own mobility, whereas Rapid Fire can be fired on the go.

When I’m trying to pop targets in combat, be it a large zerg or 1v1, what do you think I use more often? I’ll give you a hint: it’s not Barrage. Rapid Fire is far more efficient for single-target killing or even for killing in groups because the AoE of Barrage has more drawbacks. I only use Barrage when I’m further back in the zerg ranks and can afford a few moments of no mobility….otherwise that skill goes mostly unused on my ranger’s bar, because its drawbacks FAR outweigh the extra damage. Its only use in combat for me is to tag enemies in larger mobs. That’s really it.

Just because the AoE deals more overall damage than a single target skill does not mean it’s imbalanced. I don’t understand why people just look at the two damage figures, and blindly say “this one’s stronger and AoE so it’s obviously broken” when there are far more variables involved than just the damage.

AoE skills cannot be looked at in isolation as the sole reason behind some aberrations in play styles. As I indicated above, for example, the scenario design plays a big part in how players use their skills (and I am focusing on PVE here). Take the mob density and spawn rates (I know they are being looked at) in Orr at the moment. A Necro HAS to AoE to survive as we are the “attrition” class and have very little (read no) burst to be able to quickly down sequential mobs. And this is the very basis on which our abilities have been designed… attrition.

This is what I am saying…it seems AoE is being singled out as the prime issue where it is not….and certainly not the only issue that warrants it being targeted.

In my past role as an auditor I have seen situations like this many times. People perceive (maybe without sufficient data or justification) a problem, evolve what they think is the solution then they try and justify the solution through the selective manipulation of “evidence”. It is natural but it is an erroneous approach often leading to ineffectual outcomes and sometimes the root cause of the initial problem not being addressed at all. I am not saying that is happening here but it bears all the hallmarks of similar approaches.

And this^^^ (Critickitten’s post)

Edit: Above I asked two very simple questions on statements made by ANet in this regard.

What is so fundamentally wrong with using AoE on single mob fights that the devs want to nerf it even though its damage is usually less than non-AoE strikes?

Why is it unacceptable to use AoE in dungeon situations when that may be the most effective way to progress to the extent that the devs want to prevent this by nerfing AoE.

The answer to these may point to the real issues rather than AoE being OP.

critickitten.1498:

Snip – Just replying.

You’ve missed my point entirely. I’m not trying to argue which is OP and which isn’t.

In fact I think neither is OP, but AOE, as it stands, is certainly more useful than single target skills.

My example was to illustrate what I believe is the philosophy behind the rebalancing (NOT NERFING OR BUFFING) of AOE attacks. I’m not sure if you actually took the time to read my post fully, it seems like you just skim and scanned it and decide to reply to me based on what YOU though I was trying to say.

Calsifer.6079:

critickitten.1498:

Snip – Just replying.

You’ve missed my point entirely. I’m not trying to argue which is OP and which isn’t.

In fact I think neither is OP, but AOE, as it stands, is certainly more useful than single target skills.

My example was to illustrate what I believe is the philosophy behind the rebalancing (NOT NERFING OR BUFFING) of AOE attacks. I’m not sure if you actually took the time to read my post fully, it seems like you just skim and scanned it and decide to reply to me based on what YOU though I was trying to say.

I interpreted nothing incorrectly. I’m replying to the notion you put forward that AoE is “more useful”.

You’re giving your own opinion on the subject (“AoE is more useful”) and trying to apply it as a broad fact. It is not. There are plenty of cases where AoE is not the best choice, and is indeed LESS useful than a single-target skill of similar intentions.

I already gave one. How many examples will it take before you’re convinced that saying “AoE is more useful” is NOT a factual statement, but rather your own opinion?

JonathanSharp.7094:

Mirta.5029:

JonathanSharp.7094:

Just wanted to let you guys know that we’re reading this thread.

Your logic, reasons, anecdotes and ideas are being listened to. Also keep in mind, that as I said yesterday, a skill can be a balance problem in one area of the game, but underpowered in another. That’s the nature of using one set of #‘s to balance across all areas of the game. So we’re keeping that in mind as we look at this. We may need to do different tweaks in different areas of the game.

We’re also not going to make a knee jerk reaction to this. We’re still gathering data, watching player trends, and having meetings on all possible ramifications from possible changes.

thank you for the answer, it calmed me down. If you think there’s a problem with AoE in WvW, nerf it in WvW, but not PVE, because nerfing AoE in PVE when some classes already have problems would effectively kill off engineers and staff builds of mesmer, elementalist and necromancer.

No prob. Some classes have a ton of AOE, while others don’t have as much. So we’re not just going to do a blanket nerf to all AOE – that’s not fair to all classes. We’ll go on a class by class, weapon by weapon basis.

And as I’ve said, we may need to tone something down in one area of the game, but it may be totally fine in another area.

For some weapon sets, the AOE options may be too strong compared to the single target options, which is what we aim to address.

Well put, and thanks for clarifying that. I don’t play an elementalist much, only lvl 40, but I would recommend against nerfing staff elementalists for obvious reasons. D/D elementalists also would suffer greatly as might stacking relies on aoe abilities. Think this one through.

I would also like to suggest that you consider breaking up nerfs to aoe to be pvp or pve specific. I mainly play PVE and it is not fair to me to have, for example, cluster bomb on my thief nerfed if it is OP in PVP.

If this thread is a joke then let me join. For example engineer is good example of OP AOE it should be nerfed hard. Comon, you can flame all players with your flamethrower. Not to even mentioned statistic discharge hitting multiple targets. It should be removed. Also this class can throw mines! AOE! Have you ever concidered what happens when players walk into them. nerf em! Then this class can throw wrench that pierces enemies returning back to owner like boomerang! Hows that possible! Nerf it and make it knock someone. Grenades you already delt with nothing to add there. Elixir gun can also hit aoe whats ur insight of this? Bomb kit engineer can AOE alll time! ALL THE TIME! I mean how can you carry so many bombs. Engi should run to some armory room for more bombs after 10 second usage to balance AOE damage. Last but not least rifle can pierce making strong AOE damage when specced full power gear. Concider taking away engineers rifle he do fine with turret.

critickitten.1498:

Calsifer.6079:

critickitten.1498:

Snip – Just replying.

You’ve missed my point entirely. I’m not trying to argue which is OP and which isn’t.

In fact I think neither is OP, but AOE, as it stands, is certainly more useful than single target skills.

My example was to illustrate what I believe is the philosophy behind the rebalancing (NOT NERFING OR BUFFING) of AOE attacks. I’m not sure if you actually took the time to read my post fully, it seems like you just skim and scanned it and decide to reply to me based on what YOU though I was trying to say.

I interpreted nothing incorrectly. I’m replying to the notion you put forward that AoE is “more useful”.

You’re giving your own opinion on the subject (“AoE is more useful”) and trying to apply it as a broad fact. It is not. There are plenty of cases where AoE is not the best choice, and is indeed LESS useful than a single-target skill of similar intentions.

I already gave one. How many examples will it take before you’re convinced that saying “AoE is more useful” is NOT a factual statement, but rather your own opinion?

My situation is supposed to take place post AOE rebalancing patch. I was trying to describe the idea behind the rebalancing of AOE skills and how AOE skills should be applied to AOE situations and how single target skills should be applied to single target situations.

Sure, AOE might not be as effective in a pure combat encounter but it IS more useful. It gets you more kill credits and more participation and there’s nothing you can do about that. Also, have you ever been in a WvW fight where push comes to shove and engagement is necessary? Good luck using single target attacks in the SMC lords room. We also have to remember that PvE is a HUGE part of GW2 and the AI does little to nothing to avoid AOE. Your example of where AOE is not as useful might work in a PvP situation but in PvE it doesn’t work because monsters don’t dodge out of AOE, they just stand there and even in single target encounters, and Ele can just grab agro, stand next to the mob, and stack AOE after AOE.

AOE is more useful in an overall sense.

- It gets you more kill credits. (More loot.)
- It wipes groups of mobs faster than single target attacks. (This is good because this means AOE is acting like AOE)
- It gets you more participation in group content. (Defend point DEs, large ongoing damage on Bosses.)

Again, I’m not saying that AOE is OP, I’m just saying that current AOE skills are more applicable in a wide range of situations because getting credit is just a matter of doing enough damage to each target rather than actually killing the target.

You can’t just approach the situation from a PvP standpoint as you have been doing because PvP is only half the game.

I’m not sure if there’s anything the ANet can do about this as AOE will always be AOE.

Calsifer:

So what you’re saying is anyone who doesn’t spec condition to get maximum killing blows can go hose themselves?

The tagging system is certainly broken, but basing it on killing blows only makes that worse.

I like to play support.

I built a mesmer around control and projectile reflects and received very few loots while my aoe-happy friends received plenty.

I build my ele with cleric’s gear and keep people alive.

I was going to build a guardian symbol support build, but they nerfed SoW and hammer looks really stupid on human females.

They need to factor healing and hampering of units in combat in their reward system, though, not nerf aoe.

I love how proponents of an AoE nerf all of a sudden come out of the woodwork like this has always been a huge balance issue despite almost no chatter on the subject before this and the countless threads about the power of particular builds that are 100% single target damage.

@Calsifer…I agree 100% that Aoe will always be AoE.

My concern is the reasons put forward as some sort of evidence that something should be done about AoE in certain situations. Those statements just don’t hold water.

The first concerns player choice on the use of skills whether or not it is in the most “efficient” manner should be left to the player…not prescribed through manipulating already limited skills.

The second concerns scenario design wholly and solely..not the use of AoE in and of itself.

I am just as concerned with the outcome as ANet as it is not “us vs them”. We all care about this game. But I am concerned that the reasons mentioned for the particular focus on AoE really are shallow. It seems like there is something deeper at issue…I wish they would tell us.

Calsifer.6079:

Sure, AOE might not be as effective in a pure combat encounter but it IS more useful. It gets you more kill credits and more participation and there’s nothing you can do about that. Also, have you ever been in a WvW fight where push comes to shove and engagement is necessary? Good luck using single target attacks in the SMC lords room. We also have to remember that PvE is a HUGE part of GW2 and the AI does little to nothing to avoid AOE. Your example of where AOE is not as useful might work in a PvP situation but in PvE it doesn’t work because monsters don’t dodge out of AOE, they just stand there and even in single target encounters, and Ele can just grab agro, stand next to the mob, and stack AOE after AOE.

I’m assuming you haven’t done much WvW, because more often than not, the people banging up the Lords the most are the single-target players, not the guys spamming AoE at range. Yes, I’ve rushed a keep that was heavily defended on multiple occasions, and I died several times….and not one of those deaths came from an AoE blast. It was always a couple of single-target players surrounding me and ripping into me, never a bunch of AoE people dropping AoE on me (because I kept moving out of their circles).

This claim that AOE is some sort of dominant force in WvW is honestly laughable, because it’s really not. There’s a grand total of one area where it’s really great in WvW (the final chokepoint inside the keep where you’re forced to run down a narrow hallway), and everywhere else, it’s lots of open space where your most common enemy is that thief sneaking up behind you and stabbing you before you can react.

AOE is more useful in an overall sense.

- It gets you more kill credits. (More loot.)
- It wipes groups of mobs faster than single target attacks. (This is good because this means AOE is acting like AOE)
- It gets you more participation in group content. (Defend point DEs, large ongoing damage on Bosses.)

And it has a HUGE number of drawbacks that you’re ignoring:

• It has to be placed, meaning it is easier to dodge and most of its damage can be mitigated simply by leaving that target area (meaning you actually deal less than single-target skills).
• It generally has larger cooldowns.
• In some cases, it can’t be used without sacrificing your own mobility, which can be a death blow.
• It won’t pop any priority targets nearly as fast as single-target damage.

I don’t disagree that it makes tagging easier. But the claim that it’s “more useful” is a subjective, opinionated statement. It is not fact.

Again, I’m not saying that AOE is OP, I’m just saying that current AOE skills are more applicable in a wide range of situations because getting credit is just a matter of doing enough damage to each target rather than actually killing the target.

Correct. On the other hand, you don’t get credit if the target doesn’t die, which is rather often in WvW because few people are stupid enough to stand there and die. And you lose the tagging if they manage to flee combat.

So tagging them does little good if you can’t actually kill them. And generally (with a few exceptions that should be looked at), if you’re running AoE against a single-target spec character, you’re dead.

And the issue is solved in PvE by improving monster/NPC AI so they stop standing in the AoE like morons. Not by nerfing player AoE. GW1’s monsters were able to recognize AoE and avoid it to some degree so I’m not sure why GW2’s monsters are so laughably stupid as to just stand there and take it. But how about fixing THAT problem before we talk nerfs, hrm?

You can’t just approach the situation from a PvP standpoint as you have been doing because PvP is only half the game.

It’s the half that will be more dramatically affected by a nerf to AoE. Therefore, it is the half we will be looking at more often.

I don’t deny that AoE in PvE can be a problem area, but that’s not the AoE’s fault either….that’s stupid AI. Monsters will just sit there while being hit with AoE and will not leave the region….is that the player’s fault for “abusing AoE”? No, it’s the developers’ fault for giving the monster a kittenty AI. I don’t approve of blaming players for something that is clearly not a problem caused by overpowered combos, but rather inferior AI on the part of NPCs and monsters.

They keep saying they have data to prove how badly AoE is breaking things, but I notice we’ve not seen or heard any of that data. And given my own experience with AoE and my nature as a mathematical person, I’m forced to be rather skeptical of their assertions without seeing this “data” they have.

In gw1, monsters scattered if they took repeated aoe damage. Just put that back in perhaps? It should help the pve part a bit anyway.

The only way I could see a decent outcome from a major AOE revamp, would be to just remove some of the larger AOE skills completely and replace them with more focused ones.

Just directly nerfing AOEs in a blanket attempt to amend an issue will not turn out well.

Also, the small scale AOEs (cones, melee attacks, etc.) aren’t the problem. I just hope that Anet doesn’t do something unnecessary with this…

Navzar.2938:

In gw1, monsters scattered if they took repeated aoe damage. Just put that back in perhaps? It should help the pve part a bit anyway.

I should hope not, many good aoe’s stopped being used overnight because of that. They needed to address the insanity that was Echoed Meteor Shower, but all they did was effectively make AoE a pointless tactic unless you explicitly wanted to scatter the mobs.

Oldbugga.7029:

This is what I am saying…it seems AoE is being singled out as the prime issue where it is not….and certainly not the only issue that warrants it being targeted.

I agree completely. Unfortunately, they see all AoE as preventing reviving.

Zonzai.2341:

Oldbugga.7029:

This is what I am saying…it seems AoE is being singled out as the prime issue where it is not….and certainly not the only issue that warrants it being targeted.

I agree completely. Unfortunately, they see all AoE as preventing reviving.

As it should.

The only thing more unimaginative in pvp than zerging is IMMORTAL zerging. How else do you stop 4 people from ressing their buddy than aoe them?

Calsifer.6079:

It gets you more kill credits and more participation and there’s nothing you can do about that.

Even that statement is not true in all cases. The 5 target limit can often times randomize where your damage goes, ensuring you don’t reach the damage threshold to get loot.

Well, what is interesting is the number of people suddenly speaking against AoE nerf. So, I wonder what the real reason for this nerf is? ANet, care to elaborate?

Death Reincarnated.3570:

Well, what is interesting is the number of people suddenly speaking against AoE nerf. So, I wonder what the real reason for this nerf is? ANet, care to elaborate?

I don’t know that it is “suddenly” but more realization that reasoning quoted seems awfully shallow and there is no backup data at all, just some anecdotal blurb which wilts under scrutiny….in fact it seems to be contrary to players’ experiences or issues that are not of the players’ making.

This will be a good test for their stated communication improvements promised….time will tell.

What am I missing? My guardian does 250 damage per tick, I don’t consider that an overpowered skill, what’s going on?

Master Archer Nente.9284:

killcannon.2576:

Pixelninja.6971:

LordByron.8369:

Look as in game a warrior alone can do more damage than 2 other players while facetanking a boss……

What Game are you playing? In most Dungeons and Fractals, Warriors use the rifle most of the time. Show me some Videos of Warriors at Fractal lvl 30+, who are “facetanking” Bosses besides exploited Mossman.

There are actually more dungeons than just fractals. There have been a few vids of warriors soloing various explorable modes.

Yeah and the guy who did the soloing of those explorable modes is an EXTREMELY skilled player, one of the best. Same with the guy who soloed some explorable modes on an Ele.

Skill =/= OP class

Was hoping someone would quote that. I have no doubt that the player in the vid was an extremely skilled individual. My question to you then is this, Do you believe that there are other skilled individuals who play other classes? The class that he played allowed him to use his skill at it to do the job of a normally five man team. I believe that there are plenty of skilled players using other professions besides warrior. The skill isn’t in question, but what that class allowed him to do with his skill should be. You don’t see too many other classes out there soloing dungeons.

Sooo are AoE on mobs going to be nerfed too? I mean since part of the reason is people are supposedly having trouble rezzing allies. Is it going to be easier to rez random people in open world boss fights? I kinda like the AoEs going off and bobbing and weaving through them and taking a chance to rez someone.

I’m having difficulty wrapping my head around the need to dictate what skills players use and when. I’m curious as to which AoEs were causing problems.

It’s to stop people mass farming in Orr, I don’t even understand how AoE in general is “OP” in anything else aside from when you are fighting masses of targets… the point of AoE.

ANet’s balancing logic works in miraculous ways my mind cannot grasp.

As being mentioned WVW is more number game. With my prenerf nade kit + ele we could stop ppl from resssing their dead and push them out. Well nades are gone and if eles aoe out too the game is going to hit some serious problems. 5 man team ress one person so fast.

During the interview, it was mentioned that the opportunity costs of AoE were out of balance. But in the example mentioned, which was a rally/rez situation, the low opportunity costs are not because of AoE, but because of how ArenaNet decided to implement rallying/rezzing.

If you are downed, you are down to four relatively useless skills when put up against a real skill bar. The player who is rallying you, not only has to move to your spot, but also decide to be a sitting duck for an eternity (in GW2 combat terms).

Nerf AoE all you want, it just means people rallying other players are going to get shafted by single target spikes one after another.

AoE can be nerfed without touching the damage. Ranged rallying and rallying while dodging/running would be a start. Don’t complain about opportunity costs, eliminate the cheap opportunities.

plasmacutter.2709:

Zonzai.2341:

Oldbugga.7029:

This is what I am saying…it seems AoE is being singled out as the prime issue where it is not….and certainly not the only issue that warrants it being targeted.

I agree completely. Unfortunately, they see all AoE as preventing reviving.

As it should.

The only thing more unimaginative in pvp than zerging is IMMORTAL zerging. How else do you stop 4 people from ressing their buddy than aoe them?

I don’t disagree. But ANet sees it as a problem for some reason.

It seems Anet starts falling for the classic mistake. Nerf 1 profession to usefullness 0 and then everyone will start playing the next profession that is OP. Predict that we will be seeing Warriors everywhere and more Thiefs.

You, run into a zerg of 20 people, they all AOE, you die.
You, run into a zerg of 20 people, they all single target you, you die.

AoE doesn’t even hit everyone… most AoEs have a max of 5 people it can hit at one time. Even if you do say a warrior spin, you wont hit everyone around you.

You, run into a zerg of 20 people, you spin, you down 2 – 4 people, the rest of them single target/AoE you, you die. Then you rally all of them.

AoE isn’t a problem in my opinion.

I think a lot of the reason with people QQing about AoE is their own play style.

Most people would rather push the blame to game mechanics as opposed to their own play style.

Shear Force.9154:

What am I missing? My guardian does 250 damage per tick, I don’t consider that an overpowered skill, what’s going on?

Yeah wonder that also. A guardian is already low on damage. Is the nerfing going to be all round for all skills? Or for the guardian less than e.g., for ele

Guardian will not be nerfed. This nerf will benefit them.

Zonzai.2341:

Guardian will not be nerfed. This nerf will benefit them.

I’m curious as to your logic. How will a nerf to other classes benefit Guardians?

killcannon.2576:

Zonzai.2341:

Guardian will not be nerfed. This nerf will benefit them.

I’m curious as to your logic. How will a nerf to other classes benefit Guardians?

That which does not get weaker becomes stronger in relation. Guardians already being actively demanded by groups will appear even more desirable.

FourthVariety.5463:

killcannon.2576:

Zonzai.2341:

Guardian will not be nerfed. This nerf will benefit them.

I’m curious as to your logic. How will a nerf to other classes benefit Guardians?

That which does not get weaker becomes stronger in relation. Guardians already being actively demanded by groups will appear even more desirable.

That’s pretty much how it sounded to me as well.

Anet, wtf, do you even play this game?
AoE is NOT overpowered, and should not be nerfed. You nerf everything that needs a buff, and buff everything that needs a nerf…
The community NEVER asked to nerf this, still you have plans to do it? Why? What is wrong with you?

Seeing how the development team seems to have its mind already made up on the subject, I think it’s more a matter of design decision, of choosing to make the game be more like a mass action FPS, than of keeping it within the WvW war theme.

In a war of armies against armies, AoE is, yes, supposed to be the way to go, whenever possible. In a war, AoE should and is supposed to rule. Compare the number of automatic weapons, grenades and rocket launchers with the number of sniper rifles. When a real world army defends or tries to take a position, what does it set up to block enemy advancement? Sniper rifles? No. Machineguns. What weapons do they use to press forward or to maintain terrain? Automatic rifles and grenades.

It wouldn’t make much sense if, in any case in the presence of mass enemies, the “single target” skill is the best option. The downed enemy getting rezzed by his teammates case comes to my mind. I doubt a soldier would keep firing exclusively at the downed enemy OR at one of his rezzers. He’d spread autofire or throw a grenade. That’d make sure the downed soldier dies and if the others do not leave, they’ll get down too.

Making this shorter: If there are professions which do not have sufficient AoE skills for WvW, give them the AoE’s. AoE’s are supposed to be the weapon of choice in a war between masses. Do not force people to go single target when there are obvious reasons to go AoE.

Now, a valid idea concerning range. Maybe all of the professions, and not just the longbow wielding ones, could use a good “sniper like” single target long"er" range skill, channeled maybe. Or maybe those should be restricted to rangers (or also to warriors). That way they’d have something to make up for their lack of more pressurizing AoE’s. IMO each profession should remain with a “general WvW area where he’s innately better at”. Thieves shouldn’t be as good as elementalists to stay on the wall and try to slow the invading army down, just as elementalists shouldn’t be as good as thieves at infiltrating and assassinating picked targets.

Shortening once again: Instead of balancing by nerfing some professions’ AoE’s, buff the others. WvW is supposed to be about AoE most of the time, it’s just the smart way of dealing with masses. Buffing AoE for whoever needs a buff instead of the other way will encourage smart, strategical and tactical play instead of “stack up” play.

And please, please, be very careful when making changes. Many love this game. Many love their characters and their playstyles. Some of us trust your ability to make awesome patches. Please, be careful when messing with all of that.

Ok. A personal and quick question, since I’ve started to wonder:

Is this really about general AoE issues or just about “Meteor Shower” being considered OP?

I don’t understand the logic behind this “Rebalancing” at all. But that’s perhaps because the information we’ve been given about this is very unclear. If on some weapon sets AoE’s are more powerful than their single target attacks, shouldn’t the Rebalancing be focused on raising the damage dealt by the single target attacks? AoE’s arn’t exactly super powerful as it is.

What I’d like to see is some actual information on which AoE’s are being nerfed in relation to which skills, which situations have promoted these nerfs so we can give informed feedback on whether some of the nerfs are good, why they are good, and if some of them are bad and why they are bad, in multiple situations.

I can’t imagine the developers have covered every aspect of every situation of every nerf they might be applying. There’s just not enough information available yet for players to do anything but voice their displeasure or lack of understanding.

So, if I understand this properly, when I’m running around soloing in PVE and 2 of my 5 skills are AOE on my skill bar, only 3 will be worth using on the single mobs I encounter most of the time, so I’ll press 1 pretty much all the time after accounting for cooldowns on my other 2 single target skills. And, when I aggro multiple attackers and get swamped, and I use the 2 AOEs, they’ll be doing less damage to the multiple mobs, which will all be hitting me for their full damage.

That sounds like fun.

JonathanSharp.7094:

For some weapon sets, the AOE options may be too strong compared to the single target options, which is what we aim to address.

Can we get a more specific example? I mean a concrete case with a concrete skill usage? That will help a lot to let us know what exactly is the problem and thus be able to provide useful feedback.

Zonzai.2341:

Guardian will not be nerfed. This nerf will benefit them.

If they bring down aoe damage across the board then there are a number of skills with aoe damage. Tomb of Wrath e.g. In general I get what your pointing at. Compared to an ele the loss will be minor. The ele is weak and designed for aoe damage. Nerfing aoe accross the board will destroy the ele.

As someone who plays a class that has next to no aoe abilities, and is always struggling for loot because of it, I’m very excited about this change.

Nice job ANet Thanks for listening!

VBMeireles.4951:

JonathanSharp.7094:

For some weapon sets, the AOE options may be too strong compared to the single target options, which is what we aim to address.

Can we get a more specific example? I mean a concrete case with a concrete skill usage? That will help a lot to let us know what exactly is the problem and thus be able to provide useful feedback.

I bet they meant the staff ele. Let’s be truthful, their single-target skills are terrible, so that obviously means staff AoE must be nerfed down to their level.

Snow White.9680:

As someone who plays a class that has next to no aoe abilities, and is always struggling for loot because of it, I’m very excited about this change.

Nice job ANet Thanks for listening!

Ooh, let me guess – a dagger thief?

I have 4 80 full exo toons with 1000s of hours and still thoroughly enjoy pvp/wvw/pve/dungeons as well as learning each classes unique mechanics. From my experience AOE is absolutely not a problem, except line of sight AOE. From what I have learned;

Mesmer; impressive evasion and confusion, mimicking clones and providing some useful utility for your team in wvw. Damage seems abit off, but this is justified given the chaos they cause. Decent class that any group welcomes, dueling not so great.

Thief; I run either stealth or crit built w daggers/sbow. This class certainly seems out of balance due to the fact that stealth is not a condition and cannot be removed, rather than their high burst damage. Its funny to see people guessing at where you are with aoe when ur standing next to them regening ini and healing about to backstab. I stopped playing this toon until rendering issue’s are fixed but still occansionly jump on just to roam and troll when im bored, spam to win.

Guardian; Full support pvt bunker, self healing and ‘inyourfaceness’ is quite amazing while providing boon buffs to allies. They do a lot of damage but it seems in balance due to the fact that they don’t have huge mobility if you find yourself in the wrong spot. I put com on this toon because I can stand in aoe and type in team chat at 90% health while keeping mob strong. Although playstyle got repetitive and quite boring, not as easy-mode as warrior (which I quite because it isnt a challenge-OP boons, condi, weapon choice, healing, damage better than focused classes) but close.

Elementalist; Recently leveled/geared this bunker, and at first I thought there damage was way to low. After I played for awhile and learnt rotations there potential damage is at best, on par with mesmer, guardian. To get any decent damage you have to use attunements to set up your damage, eg; Lighning; move to target, stun, fire; lay initial damage conditions, allow them to blow cond removal that they have water; chill/vunerability, remove initial condition burst, Earth; move to target if needed, knockdown, get bleed stacks and finish fire field combo, fire/water depending on fight. This is by far the most complex and enjoyable class I have played in gw2, but to achieve any on par damage with other classes takes a lot of work and little room for error. Amazing mobility and decent aoe although unforgiving should you mistarget

The one place aoe seems to be extremely overpowered is in node offense/defense in wvw with stacked fields. Trying to repair a gate with multiple aoe fields layed can make repair impossible. Or been unable to range hit back due to insta death zones on walls. This rewards the team with the bigger mob sieging from range rather than skill. Anet, please nerf line of sight aoe as imo it is needed in terms of fair/balanced play. AOE effects on target are already where they should be.
Is aoe actually a problem, yes but pvp/dueling it isn’t it, rather having to be on a spot to defend/repair and been unable to due to stacked aoe fields.

TLDR Nerf line of sight aoe not a blanketed aoe nerf