Guild Wars 2

plasmacutter.2709:

Iason Evan.3806:

plasmacutter.2709:

Iason Evan.3806:

In this forums we also need to start talking about what Jonathan is saying as well. There are some weapon sets where AoE is an issue for some professions. They will address those specifically. That is fine. What they need to work on is how they communicate that. I see what ArenaNet is talking about. They just didn’t communicate it well.

So which weapon set is “overpowered”

lolengineer with grenade kit hitting for less than environmental weapons, or bunker eles whose 45 second cooldowns don’t hit as hard as a rifle warrior auto-attack? maybe the “miss thrower”?

or maybe its staff necro (trying. to. control. urge. to. gut. laugh.)

cough kill shot cough backstab cough still cough being hack, cough IGNORED!

I don’t think any one of those builds is OP at all. I don’t think anyone thinks that. If you would like to have a serious discussion fine, but mentioning those builds doesn’t make sense at all. Countering Thieves isn’t all that hard. Proc a block.

I am having a serious discussion. I’m asking what AOE you see as overpowered, becuase the ones I’m seeing are either heavy-hitting with massive cues and cast time and/or massive cooldowns or range trade-offs, or hit like wet noodles and could honestly use some kind of buff (grenade kits should, for instance, do significantly more damage to foes with at least one condition, this would produce a “rotation” in that kit rather than 1, 1, 1, 1)

even “spin-2-win” has a tradeoff and should remain as-is on guardians (not just in pvp, in pve too!)

Fair enough. Keep in mind my original post about different formats. I think Guardian greatsword is a tad strong in sPvP. i run it a lot and it needs minor adjustments. There are just too many weapon skills that can make combo fields with it. For holding cap points and also having offense, it needs a look at.

I think Ele AoE while strong, there is a fair trade off with their survivability and what they have to do to protect themselves. I think it’s fine because you don’t see a lot of staff ele in sPvP. That tells me that maybe it needs a buff there, but in other aspects of the game, the staff shines. I prefer scepter/dagger in PvE, and d/f in sPvP, but that is just me.

Ranger AoE needs a buff imo. It’s all control really. Traps need a tweak, especially for trapcasters. Greatsword needs a minor buff for sPvP and PvE. Most greatswords for classes are pretty strong. Ranger isn’t.

Mesmer is one of my fave classes to play. I think the changes they have made to them so far have been for the better. They still shine in WvW even with some of the things that have happened to them. In sPvP and PvE they are really strong.

Thing is: I trust ANet after playing their 2 games since the launch of GW1. All people may not like what they do and they do a good job. I think the strength of this game is that weapon skills come down to preference. There are a lot of viable builds and it really is about opinion of playstyle in a lot of cases and i find that to be a strength.

think Guardian greatsword is a tad strong in sPvP.

combo-break it.

Mesmer is one of my fave classes to play. I think the changes they have made to them so far have been for the better.

Mesmer recently had a bug causing mind wrack to hit for double damage. Rather than stop the bug and “wait and see”, they took away one of the few engaging things they added to mesmer since launch: mesmer might-battery build.

The bug was the issue, not the might. Might doesn’t cause 200% damage at max stacks.

This dismissive and lazy attitude convinced me ANet is not committed to the future development of mesmer as an engaging class.

Guardian greatsword symbol of wrath is another one.

Greatsword was the PERFECT symbol support weapon for dungeoneering, but then they upped the symbol cooldown to 20 seconds.

They said it was to target perm-retal, but perm-retal was still there after, and greatsword symbol support was gone forever, most guardian builds now completely malign the power tree. (what they should have done if they were not outright lying to guardians: remove retal from the symbol and replace with fury, lower damage 25% to compensate)

ANet’s record with this game thus far is abysmal, and they need to step up their game. Most members of the community are able to target what their officially stated targets are in their nerfs more effectively with 5 minutes of discussion.

This is why this thread is here, and there’s so much uproar.

The structuring of a character needs to be a series of PLAYER choices, balance of attack, defence and avoidance. BUT IT MUST BE A PLAYER’S CHOICE. It would be wrong for a whole heap of passive abilities to appear to mitigate AoE or any particular type of damage for that matter. Passives do NOT involve player choice and can exacerbate the original problem if not very carefully constructed….and they do not give the player any sense of reward for making the right choices whether they be skills in building a character or when abilities are used.

That said the devs need to make sure that all professions have the right mix of active/closeable/skills to enable those player choices to be obvious and meaningful…for example if I sacrifice a damage trait for a defence or mitigation trait then they should reasonably balance… give up 5% damage get 10% mitigation or 10% extra defence over a decent duration (numbers are just made up but you get the idea).

Oldbugga.7029:

The structuring of a character needs to be a series of PLAYER choices, balance of attack, defence and avoidance. BUT IT MUST BE A PLAYER’S CHOICE. It would be wrong for a whole heap of passive abilities appear to mitigate AoE or any particular type of damage for that matter. Passives do NOT involve player choice and can exacerbate the original problem if not very carefully constructed….and they do not give the player any sense of reward for making the right choices whether they be skills in building a character or when abilities are used.

That said the devs need to make sure that all professions have the right mix of active/closeable/skills to enable those player choices to be obvious and meaningful.

Exactly.

This is the same issue causing D/D ele to be too suvivable while preventing viability of other ele builds.

water line has too much personal passive regen.

it involves no skill, none of them are active.

people should be required to think when they play, and flat-nerfing AOE will not do that.

ATMAvatar.5749:

jobah.7241:

And why are all the Elementalists so mad. Are you so sure that you will be the victims? Or do you just like to hate?

That’s simple. Nearly every elementalist skill is AoE.

Many people notice only the big, flashy AoE spells eles have, but when you go skill for skill, there’s only a half dozen or so single-target skills across all weapon sets for the profession.

One of the statements made in the talk was that AoE was going to be toned down in general, and if taken seriously, that means that elementalists can look forward to an across-the-board damage nerf.

Of course, there have also been conflicting statements made that the devs will look at skills on a case-by-case basis, so it’s hard to know what to think.

Thats fine, but regarding the ele, its still just speculation.
Colin said a COUPLE of skills were problematic. And it could just as well be the necromancer staff.
And how do you know that it will result in an overall nerf. Maybe they are balancing the change to the specific AoE skill with adjustments to other skills in the skill set.

Truth is: WE DON’T KNOW

We only know that they want to make certain skills more situational. And i really think that is an overall good idea. I hate skill sets promoting mindless spamming.

jobah.7241:

We only know that they want to make certain skills more situational. And i really think that is an overall good idea. I hate skill sets promoting mindless spamming.

Thats not what they said in the livestream though which leads one to think they are being reactive and not really thinking these changes through.

RashanDale.3609:

i agree with them that AoE-damage is too important in WvW right now.
most of the time you dont even have to bother with single-target stuff in bigger group-fights.

It is hard to differentiate between which target to pick in a zerg. Hence, why AoE is best suit. Some players do get drawn away from the group and then are attacked singularly, however, in group environments AoE is crucial.

AoE nerfing will just encourage more zerg rushes. Currently in W3 you can get 3 general scenarios:

1) PvP (lones walking around)
2) Group v 1 player (group/guild going for tasks and finding loners)
3) Zerg vs zerg (zerg offense vs zerg defense of POIs).

Now, AoE implementation within these scenario is:

1) Works, however, enemies can dodge away, generaly slower casting times, longer recharge rates. Nerfing would just make the player focus more on his direct attacks which might even force him to change character type.

2) If youre the loner you’ll get pwned no matter what. AoE gives you some chance to level the field. Effect of nerfing AoE in such cases…well might as well stand still and get plummed.

3) Well do I need to say more? Nerfing will just focus more on melee zerg fights. Maybe ANet want it to be like LoTR? In any case, AoE is crucial for defending large number of enemies. Likewise as an offensive weapon it can push back enemies to their starting point. Nerfing it will just focus more on melee – which will cause more havoc and which brings me back to RashanDale.3609 above quote – how are you supposed to successfully keep tracking your singular target in a zerg rush? This will make gameplay more awkward.

JonathanSharp.7094:

Just wanted to let you guys know that we’re reading this thread.

Your logic, reasons, anecdotes and ideas are being listened to. Also keep in mind, that as I said yesterday, a skill can be a balance problem in one area of the game, but underpowered in another. That’s the nature of using one set of #‘s to balance across all areas of the game. So we’re keeping that in mind as we look at this. We may need to do different tweaks in different areas of the game.

We’re also not going to make a knee jerk reaction to this. We’re still gathering data, watching player trends, and having meetings on all possible ramifications from possible changes.

That’s good news. At least we know that devs aren’t tweaking without a concern for players at heart. Also, kindly look into the Heartseeker skill of thief. It’s really overpowered in my opinion and also their invisibility duration is insane. Not fun at all.

P.S. I play both Ele and Thief.

Dyroth.5063:

I agree that scaling an AoE damage vs the number affected is probably the best way to go about this. In return AoEs should be allowed to hit slightly more targets.

Yeah…. cuz if I set a bomb off in a group, it’s only gonna do full damage to one guy, the rest get off with a bruising…… try dodging if you don’t want to get hit with AOE. I see ppl do it all the time…… come to think of it, I do too.

RashanDale.3609:

i agree with them that AoE-damage is too important in WvW right now.
most of the time you dont even have to bother with single-target stuff in bigger group-fights.

as for the rez-problem:
anet should just reduce the infight-revive speed by a lot. its ridiculous how fast you can revive downed players and that you can outheal a lot of incoming damage.

tbh, i’d love to see some portal-like restrictions on many other AoE-skills. for example all the block/reflect-walls and -barriers. or these ridiculous “lolcantcross”-lines and bubbles of the guardian.

“aoe is too important right now” Um…. WvW consists of zergs vs zergs a lot of the time, ZERGING IN WVW IS TOO IMPORANT RIGHT NOW, NOT AOES

Ofcourse aoe is going to be HEAVILY needed, look at all the zerg v zergs, and no matter what aoe will be important and it should!

Just like single target dps is is also important, try taking on a small mobile squaod of 5-10 with just staff ellies, feal the wrath of death, also single target dps does more dmg, and if it doesn’t then it should So theirs that too.

Perhaps some single target weapons like 1hand sword need a slight buff, not just 1hand sword for warriors/guardians but other things too, it just seems like this single stuff can be underpowered, look at sceptor thats single target…..

Anyway i say buff aoe in wvw

Make ZERGS counter aoe, but dont make aoe do more dmg then single target dps

aslo we don’t know what anets true definition of aoe is, like is guardians greatswords autoattack aoe? it does aoe, but its melee based, if they nerf that it WONT BE GOOD melee already is harder then ranged, i say

Leave melee aoe as is
Buff melee as a whole
Perhaps buff single target dps, especially single target melee dps not including dagger
Maybe make a new type of aoe-counter-

Shouldn’t the resources put on the AE-damage balancing rather be put on class reworks? Thieves are still a very unfinished class, warriors very bad in sPvP, some weapon sets are useless or badly designed (sword OH warrior, double pistol thief), so why focusing on something which the majority of the players has no problem with? It just seems silly. Is Anet disconnected that much from the game? Or should I play more to see the huge problem with the AE damage?

Blissified.8369:

etc
Leave melee aoe as is
Buff melee as a whole
Perhaps buff single target dps, especially single target melee dps not including dagger
Maybe make a new type of aoe-counter-

Sure, leave WARRIORS stronger than anything else, and delete low-defense ranged classes/builds from the game, after all the damage as well as their defense must be nerfed till they become kitten useless classes. =)

Kacigarka.5176:

ALL I SEE here are pure speculations.

And whose fault is that?

ArenaNet should have opened up some kind of discussion about why they perceived an imbalance and given us details around which AoE skills and professions they relate to.

Instead were left with this generic AoE nerf incoming which the community didn’t even ask for.

Lets forget invisi rendering thief’s, the community has said nothing about them -.-

I think that the devs are trying to balance group dynamic in this game and in addition to opportunity cost, risk versus reward. It’s a lot easier to sit on top of a wall in WvW and spam AoE than have to travel into the fray to do your damage. That being said, if they reduce any damage, an increase/removal of the number of players that can be hit should accompany it. This would punish Zergs for grouping up and at the same time make it less useful on single targets. For D/D eles for instance, I would think everything would remain around the same for abilities that center on the character as they would have to walk into the enemy zerg for them to be useful in the first place, but maybe the ranged ones like cluster bomb on a thief could have a reduction in damage but an increase in the number that they hit since its much safer to sit and plink from a distance.
The problem that I see right now isn’t necessarily in WvW right now though, it may be in participation of dungeons for single target classes like the thief or dagger necro. The reward versus risk of a D/D thief is almost nothing as the huge heathpools of mobs negate any burst they may bring to the table. It would be impossible to raise single target damage at this point also be cause it really would break WvW. Sustained damage from the warrior or an AoE is much more useful to the makeup of the group. Since they said they would also be nerfing dungeon encounters (probably though mob health), i think the overall goal from here on out is to make it be able to be playable any way you want to.
If they are going to be looking at all AoE abilities though, I hope they buff some of the necro’s AoE either by upping the number of targets that can be hit or reducing cooldowns on their utility skills.

Let’s wait and see what they do first though. As a thief, I have seen a number of nerfs (most warranted except maybe Dancing Dagger) and most of the time they aren’t sweeping.

Valento.9852:

Blissified.8369:

etc
Leave melee aoe as is
Buff melee as a whole
Perhaps buff single target dps, especially single target melee dps not including dagger
Maybe make a new type of aoe-counter-

Sure, leave WARRIORS stronger than anything else, and delete low-defense ranged classes/builds from the game, after all the damage as well as their defense must be nerfed till they become kitten useless classes. =)

Umm warriors are only good on trash mobs, im talking more about wvw, in wvw and other pvp warriors need some help. Plus im talking from more of a guardian purspective, not on purpose but my main is a guardian.

We dont have to buff melee damage i dont want THAT
The buff would be more for warrior 1 hand sword WHICH NEEDS A BUFF compared to other warrior weapons.

I didn’t ever say buff greatsword, just leave AOE melee the same. Thats all.

Notice how almost all melee classes HEAVILY favour greatsword *: ) *

So I followed this thread all the way through and it seems to have run its course.

Here are the big takeaways from what I can see:

1) Most players don’t think AoE is an issue
2) Some players feel very strongly that it is an issue, mainly mesmers and thieves, who incidentally, tend to have very little AoE compared to most other classes.
3) The biggest areas of concern seem to be WvW and world events.

Here’s my opinion:

1) The problem in both WvW and in world events is that rewards are given for “tagging” with no real incentive, and limited ability, to burst down individual targets.

2) AoE can be nerfed, across the board or on a case by case basis, but the underlying mechanics of the game reward AoE to the point that the equilibrium point between AoE and single target in these large group encounters would probably make AoE useless in any other aspect of the game.

3) Nerfing AoE would exacerbate other issues which already exist, like the tendency of players to want to zerg as much as possible in WvW. Good players should be spreading out and trying to flow around their enemies while holding strong points with inferior numbers. Bad players prefer to swarm their opponents without regard for strategic objectives or tactical positioning.

The game should reward and encourage good play, which if anything would point to a need for stronger AoE in WvW. At some point, players need to L2P rather than have WvW made into a bland meatgrinder. Without banging their heads against chokepoints defended with strong AoE, players will never learn how important it is to hold as opposed to just attack strategic points. They’ll never learn the importance of spreading out and flanking to create superior surface area in mass battles.

Good game design is presenting players with meaningful choices, not simply replacing one obvious choice (zerging and using AoE) with an even more obvious choice (zerging and employing single target abilities with no threat of punishment from AoE).

4) It would probably make more sense, though it would be unsatisfying to those who prefer single target DPS above all else, to simply ensure that mesmers and thieves have viable AoE capabilities, and going forward, look for ways to reward players that aren’t weighted towards tagging as many mobs or players as possible.

Maybe that means awarding loot bags and badges for capping and holding points in WvW rather than, or in addition to, simply tagging as many enemies as possible in the midst of gigantic zergs v zerg battles.

Maybe it means awarding a loot bag or a number of items based on one’s participation in an event, rather than how many mobs were tagged and killed.

Maybe it means designing dungeon encounters in such a way that killing individual mobs quickly matters more than taking down swarms, or simply beating up a gigantic sack of hit points (fewer mobs, much harder hitting, many fewer HP).

Maybe it means, in addition to making sure that mesmers and thieves have real AoE options, other professions have real single target options.

Most mesmers I know of don’t really gripe about AOE this isn’t a general population poll but just the ones that I play with.

Sleel.8365:

Dyroth.5063:

I agree that scaling an AoE damage vs the number affected is probably the best way to go about this. In return AoEs should be allowed to hit slightly more targets.

Yeah…. cuz if I set a bomb off in a group, it’s only gonna do full damage to one guy, the rest get off with a bruising…… try dodging if you don’t want to get hit with AOE. I see ppl do it all the time…… come to think of it, I do too.

Well yeah the closer you are to an explotion the more it rips you apart. Also this is a video game.

And you could also say its far easyer to dodge single target.

Voxdeus.1034:

So I followed this thread all the way through and it seems to have run its course.

Here are the big takeaways from what I can see:

1) Most players don’t think AoE is an issue
2) Some players feel very strongly that it is an issue, mainly mesmers and thieves, who incidentally, tend to have very little AoE compared to most other classes.
3) The biggest areas of concern seem to be WvW and world events.

Here’s my opinion:

1) The problem in both WvW and in world events is that rewards are given for “tagging” with no real incentive, and limited ability, to burst down individual targets.

2) AoE can be nerfed, across the board or on a case by case basis, but the underlying mechanics of the game reward AoE to the point that the equilibrium point between AoE and single target in these large group encounters would probably make AoE useless in any other aspect of the game.

3) Nerfing AoE would exacerbate other issues which already exist, like the tendency of players to want to zerg as much as possible in WvW. Good players should be spreading out and trying to flow around their enemies while holding strong points with inferior numbers. Bad players prefer to swarm their opponents without regard for strategic objectives or tactical positioning.

The game should reward and encourage good play, which if anything would point to a need for stronger AoE in WvW. At some point, players need to L2P rather than have WvW made into a bland meatgrinder. Without banging their heads against chokepoints defended with strong AoE, players will never learn how important it is to hold as opposed to just attack strategic points. They’ll never learn the importance of spreading out and flanking to create superior surface area in mass battles.

Good game design is presenting players with meaningful choices, not simply replacing one obvious choice (zerging and using AoE) with an even more obvious choice (zerging and employing single target abilities with no threat of punishment from AoE).

4) It would probably make more sense, though it would be unsatisfying to those who prefer single target DPS above all else, to simply ensure that mesmers and thieves have viable AoE capabilities, and going forward, look for ways to reward players that aren’t weighted towards tagging as many mobs or players as possible.

Maybe that means awarding loot bags and badges for capping and holding points in WvW rather than, or in addition to, simply tagging as many enemies as possible in the midst of gigantic zergs v zerg battles.

Maybe it means awarding a loot bag or a number of items based on one’s participation in an event, rather than how many mobs were tagged and killed.

Maybe it means designing dungeon encounters in such a way that killing individual mobs quickly matters more than taking down swarms, or simply beating up a gigantic sack of hit points (fewer mobs, much harder hitting, many fewer HP).

Maybe it means, in addition to making sure that mesmers and thieves have real AoE options, other professions have real single target options.

If healing done, damage mitigated through boons, damage attributable to boons, and damage mitigated through “jamming” the enemy were even badly accounted-for and loot credit given, people wouldn’t complain about the tagging system.

I have a sneaking suspicion this is indeed the reason why they are talking about AoE though. They have a bad tagging system, and instead of fixing it they’re going to hose the entire meta-balance of the game. It’s rather sad, and they think they’re saving work but it will be much, much worse than simply taking the time and effort to overhaul the tagging system now, rather than later.

Teabaker.9524:

Shouldn’t the resources put on the AE-damage balancing rather be put on class reworks? Thieves are still a very unfinished class, warriors very bad in sPvP, some weapon sets are useless or badly designed (sword OH warrior, double pistol thief), so why focusing on something which the majority of the players has no problem with? It just seems silly. Is Anet disconnected that much from the game? Or should I play more to see the huge problem with the AE damage?

You do know that logicly working on both aoe and single target could do alot to chage this

Blissified.8369:

Valento.9852:

Blissified.8369:

etc
Leave melee aoe as is
Buff melee as a whole
Perhaps buff single target dps, especially single target melee dps not including dagger
Maybe make a new type of aoe-counter-

Sure, leave WARRIORS stronger than anything else, and delete low-defense ranged classes/builds from the game, after all the damage as well as their defense must be nerfed till they become kitten useless classes. =)

Umm warriors are only good on trash mobs, im talking more about wvw, in wvw and other pvp warriors need some help. Plus im talking from more of a guardian purspective, not on purpose but my main is a guardian.

We dont have to buff melee damage i dont want THAT
The buff would be more for warrior 1 hand sword WHICH NEEDS A BUFF compared to other warrior weapons.

I didn’t ever say buff greatsword, just leave AOE melee the same. Thats all.

Notice how almost all melee classes HEAVILY favour greatsword *: ) *

Warriors are only good against trash mobs…can’t tell if serious or trolling.

UnderdogSMO.9428:

Sleel.8365:

Dyroth.5063:

I agree that scaling an AoE damage vs the number affected is probably the best way to go about this. In return AoEs should be allowed to hit slightly more targets.

Yeah…. cuz if I set a bomb off in a group, it’s only gonna do full damage to one guy, the rest get off with a bruising…… try dodging if you don’t want to get hit with AOE. I see ppl do it all the time…… come to think of it, I do too.

Well yeah the closer you are to an explotion the more it rips you apart. Also this is a video game.

And you could also say its far easyer to dodge single target.

Like I said. See ppl dodging cannon and other AOE stuff all the time. See a red circle appear, dodge. Can’t see how that is hard. Don’t even have to get out of the circle if you are in the middle of the dodge animation, yup, seen that too.

And sure, if you are further away from an explosion it does less damage. If you are actually far enough from it for the blast to be attenuated. (hint, that explosion that tosses Cruise around like a rag doll in one of his Mission movies, he wouldn’t be getting slammed against the car (sideways from an explosion from behind) and getting up to run some more, the shockwave from that range would have turned all his insides to goo) If not, enjoy you liquified insides, the shock wave doesn’t care if there is 1 person in the AOE or 10. Nor does my poison cloud AOE (thief), or it shouldn’t.
Don’t bunch up and you wont get taken out by a grenade, metaphorically speaking, tho I guess an Engineer could make that literal.

DiogoSilva.7089:

1. How many of you poor, saint souls have never, ever abused AoE to do dynamic events?

2. How many of you have seen mobs dodging your AoEs?

3. How many of you haven’t abused AoEs to clean entire capture points in pvp (and farm glory in the process)?

4. And WvW? WvW zergs are an AoE spamfest. This is a fact. None of you can argue against that. The format itself motivates that.

5. When you fight two mobs, are you going to quickly burst one so you can have some room to breath while fighting the remaining one?

1) as said some classes cannot choose of what skill to use….dunno what you mean with abuse, but when a class is based on skill rotationsto do few dmg , cannot do anything else.
5 mos cap is more than enough

2) it happens a lot that in PvE mobs try to interrupt you with stuns etc….it may be due to their strong number…..also you can see that classes with AoE are lacking survivability and already aoe damage is quite low.
You won t see aoe hitting for 10.000+ except aoe with little cones…..(100B).

3) i don t play pvp, mostly because how bad is impcating PvE…..and imho Killing the first window of the game without even reaching a good audience.

4) WWW has bigger issues…..taking care of them should be done and not nerfs to aoe without before solving key issues…it will lead just to more imbalance and less players.
After all 50% WWW is nightcapping….

5) its actually what is done by almost anyone…

The problem here is easy…..
Nerfing AoE would require a complete rework of many classes…..

We all know they won t do it (they have yet to fix so many skills), and even if they do, would be required new skills to be tested.

Lowering output damage of some classes that already are not wellcome in PVE and considered quite bad, is a bad move.

Saying PvE is a problem in dungeon while being the exact opposite is what makes us worry.

Anyone ever saw AoE helping skip parts in dungeons?
COnsider limit to 5 target also……

Playing any fotm 20+, or even AC would be enough to see they are basing their patch on something that for players is wrong.

playandchill.3908:

AOE need to be nerfed.

Hope ANet is working on a fair balancing.

Aren’t those two a bit contradictory?

wow.. talk about loaded terminology.

wow.. talk about loaded terminology.When you’re facing literal ARMIES of undead at the temple of balthazar, using aoe is not “abuse”, it is the logical course of action.

AoE is a logical consequence of the real problem, zerging. Almost any strategy is beaten by overwhelming numbers. The top servers will always stay top because if weapon technology is equal then numbers becomes most important.

Think they don’t need to nerf AoE at all. It will still be boring zerg against zerg with the difference that now a smaller force can’t slow down and AoE to defeat the zerg. It will all be even more boring.

Instead of nerfing AoE damage maybe make the damage not stacking. Now I get hit by 10 AoEs at the same time. Thats the only valid nerf I imagine.

plasmacutter.2709:

wow.. talk about loaded terminology.

wow.. talk about loaded terminology.When you’re facing literal ARMIES of undead at the temple of balthazar, using aoe is not “abuse”, it is the logical course of action.

Or in WvW. What are you supposed to do? Attack one person while the zerg piles on? No, you use AOE on ppl who are bunched up. Or to stop them rushing you. Oddly nuff, most will stop/go around (wasting time) when they see a poison AOE in front of them. Buys you time to get to help (WvW), or screws the mob in PvE.
Hell, I pile on the conditions when faced with a big group. Poison, cluster bomb, that spin evade thieves do, whose name is escaping me right now, that bleeds. Then a couple dodge rolls dropping caltrops with each. Then watch them hobble towards me loosing HP from bleeds and poison to have them drop dead as they reach me. Makes me laff every time.

AoE are supposed to be extremely destructive. Why people want to tune a bomb to the level of a bullet is completely beyond my understanding abilities.
In certain other MMORPGS I played, some AoE skills had 30min cooldown or more, but their effect was so devastating that they could really change the fate of a siege at the last minute, completely obliterating two or more enemy parties.
Let the nukers be nukers, but it’s okay to give non-nukers some -very complex- way to protect themselves.

Lets not ignore the elephant in the room any longer:

AoE isn’t the problem.

Elementalists are the problem.

Soloing parties full of people with their D/D bunker build.

Oglaf.1074:

Elementalists are the problem.

Soloing parties full of people with their D/D bunker build.

loool. Dodge, get far, switch to ranged weapon and bye bye Ele.
BTW, what’s with this “let’s everyone win the Olympic games” attitude?
it would be unfair toward those who mastered their class.

Oglaf.1074:

Lets not ignore the elephant in the room any longer:

AoE isn’t the problem.

Elementalists are the problem.

Soloing parties full of people with their D/D bunker build.

If you’re running with a party, use some coordination and cc the kitten out if the ele. Eventually all the breaks will be in cd and you can burst em down. Or, have one necro cast corrupt boon. Or, switch to range. Or, have a couple people knockdown.

Please note I’m only talking about wvw, but dd bunker eles are flashy. They throw off your group/Zerg while other classes burst people down.

Grevender.9235:

what’s with this “let’s everyone win the Olympic games” attitude?
it would be unfair toward those who mastered their class.

Mastered their class lol? This isnt Aion or Gw1, classes here take zero skill. If you struggle with a few buttons id really hate to see you play any serious sort of complex pvp game with 30-40+ active abilities and no trait system. Ele is just broken in certain specs. So his point stands imo.

AoE is a tactic highlighted by the design flaws within the game, its become class specific because yet again only some classes were built around aoe as we know. Once anet decides all classes need aoe and guardians are rocking firestorm to make the game more homogenized maybe that wont be an issue lol :p

Seriously though I dont really see a possible fix without a complete overhaul to class design. Which is a terrible state for the game to be right now. It feels like the game really wasnt prepared for the core population heading toward WvW and now they are stuck at an em pass of what to change and not.

Its a natural tactic to aoe bottle necks and other things, yet any group change will further throw the 1v1 meta out the window. Its funny how most say thats fine because the game isnt 1v1 orientated, whilst mostly choosing to play the dominant 1v1 classes.

The reason this debate is just going to keep spinning though is because their isnt really a solution until you overhaul aoe dependent classes. Expand the class skill set to incorporate enough depth/ allow proper specialization beyond the single weapon/trait pigeon holing that most classes are subject too, then you might get somewhere.

beren.6048:

Instead of nerfing AoE damage maybe make the damage not stacking. Now I get hit by 10 AoEs at the same time. Thats the only valid nerf I imagine.

That would make it even easier for people to zerg you. You would never be able to hold choke points, doors, or so enough damage to simply stop a mass of people from pushing into your face and destroying you.

Please think about what you suggest before posting it.

Warriors only have it bad due to the current meta the game is using and their lack of condition removal options. If they had 1 more real condition removal they’d be fine so long as the meta moved away from the passive healing type specs everyone is using.

As for AE, I’m really scared what they’re going to do. Currently we have absolutely horrible classes like Necromancers and Rangers who are only barely staying relevant in PvP due to their bunker builds. If they didn’t have these, they’d be second class citizens. But then to threaten an AE nerf that will hit Elementalists (a class with maybe 95% of their skills being AE by design with next to no DD options) and Necromancers the hardest unless we see something like melee AE being reduced to 3 targets.

How did past MMO’s handle massive AE problems? Shadowbane probably handled it the best with their spell resist system and armor types. But can this game be moved over to a spell resist system when no gear has been itemized with this in mind?

In WoW there simply wasn’t a lot of it. The AE That we did have also wasn’t nearly as powerful as the DD alternatives. But then again they didn’t have entire skill sets that revolved around it. Let alone an entire class with nothing but AE options.

I’m also not convinced AE is the problem here. I think it’s the way healing works with all the bunker builds going around right now. Why not scale back some of the healing options, change water fields to provide aegis and regen instead of large direct heals and regen. Why not encourage actual thought behind gear selection instead of everyone going for PVT.

The classes that aren’t doing well right now are those that don’t have the tools to make bunker builds. Find a way to nerf those and the problem with AE should be resolved as those that are doing it will get hit harder and those classes that currently rely heavily on burst like Warriors will start to show back up.

But be warned, once bunker is gone, Rangers and Necromancers will likely be pushed back down to useless status.

Oglaf.1074:

Lets not ignore the elephant in the room any longer:

AoE isn’t the problem.

Elementalists are the problem.

Soloing parties full of people with their D/D bunker build.

A bunker ele does almost no damage. What he does well is survive. If a d/d ele is actually doing more than giving you love taps, then he is a glass cannon and can be 2/3 shot.

On the other hand if true bunker ele is killing you so quickly that you complain on the forums about it, then you need to reevaluate your gear and stop running around in all berzerker for lolnumbers instead of p/v/t.

Atherakhia.4086:

Currently we have absolutely horrible classes like Necromancers and Rangers who are only barely staying relevant in PvP due to their bunker builds.

I’m also not convinced AE is the problem here. I think it’s the way healing works with all the bunker builds going around right now. Why not scale back some of the healing options, change water fields to provide aegis and regen instead of large direct heals and regen.

Necro’s are awesome played and specced right. Also, you forgot to add in the fact the the reason there ARE bunker eles is because they pretty much are forced to go bunker to survive being killed by anyone that sneezes at them.

Also, there isn’t ENOUGH healing in this game. You really cant complain about regen because it is a trickle of health compared to the massive damage people take. Whoopty do, you are regenning for 200 a second out of a health pool of 20k, but are taking hits for 4-6k a second. Oh and those other heals on long cool downs some classes get, is even a 2k self heal that doesnt even negate a single attack worth complaining about?

The truth of the matter is that in this game there isn’t enough meaningful CC and not near enough AoE to combat zergs. This is why zerging and superior numbers for the most part beats ability. Sure lesser numbers can and do win, but it is generally due to the zerg being incompetent. Even in those silly 4 vs 30 videos the glass cannon ele’s doing work there would have been destroyed if one competent player out of the 30 used a gap close and wrecked them.

In summation, current AoE abilities need to be left alone in WvWvW. If you cant move yourself out of a circle or dodge when you see an animation cause most hit after the animation, then you deserve to get hit by it. If anything, the AoE cap needs to be slightly raised to give the less populated servers / teams a chance against superior numbers. (note I play on one of those populated servers steamrolling everyone with numbers)

Since we DO have instances where single target abilities do less than AoE. Those abilities need to be reevaluated to make them useful and/or do more damage. Nerfing AoE would destroy this game to be honest.

covenn.7165:

Atherakhia.4086:

Currently we have absolutely horrible classes like Necromancers and Rangers who are only barely staying relevant in PvP due to their bunker builds.

I’m also not convinced AE is the problem here. I think it’s the way healing works with all the bunker builds going around right now. Why not scale back some of the healing options, change water fields to provide aegis and regen instead of large direct heals and regen.

Necro’s are awesome played and specced right. Also, you forgot to add in the fact the the reason there ARE bunker eles is because they pretty much are forced to go bunker to survive being killed by anyone that sneezes at them.

Also, there isn’t ENOUGH healing in this game. You really cant complain about regen because it is a trickle of health compared to the massive damage people take. Whoopty do, you are regenning for 200 a second out of a health pool of 20k, but are taking hits for 4-6k a second. Oh and those other heals on long cool downs some classes get, is even a 2k self heal that doesnt even negate a single attack worth complaining about?

I specifically said Necros are being held up by a single spec…

And perhaps if the bunker/healing issue was resolved the true problem like melee burst on warriors and thieves will once again begin getting discussed? That is where the main problem is that made the need for bunker builds in the first place.

And by healing issues, I meant healing for the elementalist. D/D wouldn’t be nearly as competetive if you actually had to land icy breath to heal yourself or if the water fields didn’t actually heal you for 2k-4k.

I really do think the issues we see right now are related to
1.) The healing options for d/d being too powerful (note that once D/D is scaled back some, the whole class will be as useless as engineers and rangers).
2.) Healing options in general being too powerful (this will scale back bunker builds thus making Eles, Necros, Rangers all useless).
3.) Melee burst is simply nuts.

I say fix those 3 things and lets see where the classes fall because those 3 things will destroy the current meta and resolve the issues that made the bunker builds show up in the first place. Then we can worry about fixing the classes on a class by class basis starting with the engineer, necromancer, and ranger which are just god awful classes right now.

ErraticFaith.9142:

Mastered their class lol? This isnt Aion or Gw1, classes here take zero skill. If you struggle with a few buttons id really hate to see you play any serious sort of complex pvp game with 30-40+ active abilities and no trait system.

So Chess doesn’t requires skills, because your adversary has the same pieces you have?
You really believe that being a pianist and pressing buttons makes you skilled? cute

AoE is a tactic highlighted by the design flaws within the game, its become class specific because yet again only some classes were built around aoe as we know. Once anet decides all classes need aoe and guardians are rocking firestorm to make the game more homogenized maybe that wont be an issue lol :p

the only “flaws” I can see is that AoE are not powerful enough to be a REAL threat and at the same time there isn’t an effective counter-mechanics.

Seriously though I dont really see a possible fix without a complete overhaul to class design.

now now, just a few tweaks here and there and everything would be okay. The one that want to be protected from AoE should make the same effort of the ones who wants to be mass-destructive (no insta-win buttons, no insta-save-me buttons: mechanics….)

The reason this debate is just going to keep spinning though is because their isnt really a solution until you overhaul aoe dependent classes.

this is completely wrong: AoE classes are nearly fine as they are, just add some combo field for protection for the other classes and problem solved.

Grevender.9235:

this is completely wrong: AoE classes are nearly fine as they are, just add some combo field for protection for the other classes and problem solved.

Combos with light fields give retaliation to everyone in the area, which absolutely wrecks someone using AoE. Guardians are the most well-known to have light fields, but Mesmers, Engineers, and Necromancers give light fields as well (see http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Light_field).

Ironically, the profession balance is such that the only profession which reliably uses (or often times, even knows about) combos is the Elementalist, because it’s the only one which needs to use them to be effective.

Atherakhia.4086:

And by healing issues, I meant healing for the elementalist. D/D wouldn’t be nearly as competetive if you actually had to land icy breath to heal yourself or if the water fields didn’t actually heal you for 2k-4k.

I really do think the issues we see right now are related to
1.) The healing options for d/d being too powerful (note that once D/D is scaled back some, the whole class will be as useless as engineers and rangers).
2.) Healing options in general being too powerful (this will scale back bunker builds thus making Eles, Necros, Rangers all useless).

Again you are wrong. There isn’t enough healing in this game.

In fact, the D/D ele you complain about doesn’t even have water fields to blast in. That is pretty much staff, and staff is horrible outside of choke points and sieges.

Even a bunker D/D that sacrifices damage for some healing power, from regen is only going to get 1/100th of his health pool back a tick. His cleansing wave is going to land for a shade over 2k and it has a fairly long cool down (then the EA roll as well). That 2k heal is 1/10th of a bunker specs health pool. Hardly OP, hardly too much, and hardly needs adjusting downwards considering they sacrifice damage to even do that paltry amount of healing.

Simply put, you are wrong. I agree that you should have to hit someone with cone of cold for the heal to work, but that is about it tbh. The fact of the matter is, the best heal in this game and generally the best option for most classes is to run away out of combat to get health back. Personally, I find something really wrong with that.

So what happens to the ele whose majority of skills are aoe based for a majority of their weapons lol…. speaking about pve here.

Are they going to get a serious buff to their single target dps skills? I mean what happens when they have 5 mobs on them… they have neither the armor or toughness to just face tank them like say a warrior. That Aoe is not only their main dps but a way to survive.

Cant nerf things without compenstating in other areas to make up for it.

Just my 2 cents.

Grevender.9235:

the only “flaws” I can see is that AoE are not powerful enough to be a REAL threat and at the same time there isn’t an effective counter-mechanics.

Well there are counter mechanics for most AEs.

See a red circle on the ground, move out of it or dodge roll out of it. Many AEs animate before doing damage, some with quite a long delay. See AE animation, move or dodge roll depending on which one it is. Even the 4 second channel that d/d ele’s get that everyone complains about but shouldnt: interrupt the channel, simply move out of the way during those 4 seconds after the animation, or count to 3 and dodge (this stops d/d’s from lightning flashing to you).

Simple, easy to use counters for every class.

Then there is the game mechanic counter itself. 5 target limit.

The only issues with D/d eles is their ability to escape even when downed, and the fact that boons trigger on attunement swop, coupled with massive healing (go read the d/d guide for how it’s done).

D/D ele can go from 1hp to full in the time it takes for him to run away and turn around- it’s almost as annoying as thiefs being able to reset a fight and re appear a few seconds later at full HP while your heal is still 10-15 seconds away from being off cooldown.

There is nothing wrong with ele’s aoe- if anything staff ele skills need a small buff and the 5 target cap needs REMOVING on all aoe skills.

There only other aoe ability that needs a nerf is the thief spin, they need to be able to be hit by arrows during it- but then thiefs aren’t going to get any real nerfs….

Victory.2879:

The only issues with D/d eles is their ability to escape even when downed, and the fact that boons trigger on attunement swop, coupled with massive healing (go read the d/d guide for how it’s done).

D/D ele can go from 1hp to full in the time it takes for him to run away and turn around- it’s almost as annoying as thiefs being able to reset a fight and re appear a few seconds later at full HP while your heal is still 10-15 seconds away from being off cooldown.

There is nothing wrong with ele’s aoe- if anything staff ele skills need a small buff and the 5 target cap needs REMOVING on all aoe skills.

There only other aoe ability that needs a nerf is the thief spin, they need to be able to be hit by arrows during it- but then thiefs aren’t going to get any real nerfs….

Unless there is a keep door within range, the ele down state does not let them get away. They literally move all over 20 feet away from you and then you stomp them. Half the eles I down don’t bother.

The attunement swap boon is a trait, big deal. They are short lived. The one you should be complaining about are the aura boons combined with boon duration. Even so, I true bunker ele is going to hit you like a wet noodle with far more effort and timing than it takes other classes that can out damage them by spamming one button.

Also what is your definiton of ‘massive’ healing. A typical D/D ele is going to heal for about 2200 with cleansing wave, or 1/10th of his health pool. They do keep regen up that typically ticks for 1/75th to 1/100th of their health pool…. given they are in the lowest health pool in the game, umm yeah. Hardly massive healing. Of course there is the heal slot ability, but everyone has something similar so no point complaining about it.

Lets face it, the big thing you are complaining about here is not being able to collect bags from d/d elementalists because they run away from you. People are used to elementalists with staffs being free bags, and when they run into one that doesnt get three shot and can run away, they complain. There is nothing OP about a bunker ele because they sacrifice damage for survivability. The reason there are so many bunker ele’s now is because it is the only ele build with some survivability. Every other build gets 3 shot by people and is no fun to play.

GTAoE stalling is possibly one of the unique features that make GW2 stand out from the other boring MMOs where you can’t do this which makes the environment a non-factor in PvP.
Lack of GTAoE stalling means you can’t use a chokepoint to stall an army (i.e. the gate near ogrewatch), it will be really all about jumping on each other and unloading skills.

Please don’t kill the importance of environment control.
Every class has one or more ways to get through AoEs anyways; if this is a sPvP issue then nerf sPvP alone but don’t destroy the rest of the world.

I don’t bother being stomped if far from a gate yes, I don’t even try scaping as it’s pointless in a zerg unless a thief cloaks me… bunker eles maybe need a nerf? if nerfing one thing is required to buff others, then I’d go with it if staff eles got a little more support-focused skills (e.g. change Unsteady Ground for some temporary armor buff cast on someone like WoW shaman’s Armor of Earth or something).

Atherakhia.4086:

Currently we have absolutely horrible classes like Necromancers and Rangers who are only barely staying relevant in PvP due to their bunker builds. If they didn’t have these, they’d be second class citizens.

….

But be warned, once bunker is gone, Rangers and Necromancers will likely be pushed back down to useless status.

How is it that my longbow ranger who is almost entirely dedicated to burst damage is able to stay relevant in WvW against virtually everything it fights, save for culling-abusing thieves and defense-focused guardians?

inb4 “WvW isn’t PvP”, even though it clearly is. It’s not as fancy as sPvP perhaps but it’s clearly a form of PvP.

To be blunt, you’re grossly oversimplifying a complex issue with broad generalizations that are misleading at best. I don’t want them nerfing AoE either, but let’s not pretend that “bunker builds” are the only viable course in PvP for a ranger, because seriously, they’re not. Maybe the problem lies with you, here, not the class.

What truly baffles me personally, is that they choose to rebuild AoE skills, when condition damage is actually broken in itself.

Anet appears to have a backwards concept of wanting to play with balancing issues as a priority over fixing broken aspects.