Is AoE actually a problem? - Discussion Thread
What truly baffles me personally, is that they choose to rebuild AoE skills, when condition damage is actually broken in itself.
Anet appears to have a backwards concept of wanting to play with balancing issues as a priority over fixing broken aspects.
I believe that a lot of the outrage over the AoE issue stems from people who, like you, think there are a lot of aspects of play that ANet ought to be fixing, and that AoE is not one of them.
I’m pretty sure the outrage comes from people who don’t understand why they would want to rework a damage mechanic that is not broken or overpowered or spammed, as has been stated by most posters.
i dont care what they do with aoe as long as they do something. the constant aoe spam in wvw is stupid and takes a lot of fun out of pvp .
i dont care what they do with aoe as long as they do something. the constant aoe spam in wvw is stupid and takes a lot of fun out of pvp .
Then stop zerging, and look for small groups to travel with. Or look for ways to flank and create a concave, instead of massing up on an easily AoE’d choke point.
To a large degree, it’s a L2P issue. The fact that people STILL think that zerging a choke is a viable play style kind of tells me that AoE isn’t strong enough.
(edited by Voxdeus.1034)
Then stop zerging, and look for small groups to travel with. Or look for ways to flank and create a concave, instead of massing up on an easily AoE’d choke point.
To a large degree, it’s a L2P issue. The fact that people STILL think that zerging a choke is a viable play style kind of tells me that AoE isn’t strong enough.
Precisely my thinking. Anyone who is willing to jump into an obvious meat grinder doesn’t get to complain about being ground into mince meat.
AoE is one of the few viable tactics for controlling and hurting zergs. If AoE is reduced across the board (which was the original statement that the devs made), zerging in WvW will only get worse while abusive single-target combos will continue, and there will be no fun in it any more.
Frankly? The fact that AoE often isn’t enough to handle many of these incredibly unskilled zergs of players tells me that it’s not strong enough. I don’t expect to hold off 30 guys on my own, no, but I expect skilled players to be able to pick off weak players who rely on the zerg for protection. AoE is one of the better ways to do so.
Remember when our developers talked about “strengthening the core game”?
How’d that work out for us so far?
Now let’s try some ideas that will really work.
How’d that work out for us so far?
Now let’s try some ideas that will really work.
PvE, it’s fun to fight a lot of mobs at once semi-often, I picture action mmo’s as ARPG’s with a 1rst/3rd person pov. Making a game where you are just a little bit stronger than a singular foe that you are up against often, makes for a very dry mmo experience. Been there…. fell asleep.
For some builds Guard/War they have the armor to chop up many at a time. However for an Ele/Necro/Mez they don’t. So they need to rely on AOE for that task. This is in question?
AOE is fun.
If the game needs different skills for PvE vs PvP please do that… in the name of fun for both modes. Don’t take away a fantasy gaming staple. Don’t be the action mmo that took away the action.
I also find this being discussed bizarre, the talk of “to aoe” or “not to aoe” should have been done years ago and the answer should have been “to aoe” and in the future any developer out there should conclude “to aoe” as well. You tweak things, yes. You don’t consider really taking away/nueteraizing AOE. AOE is a staple for several classes in this game, in this genre, it’s fun, what else needs be said?
Figure it out. This rethinking a truly core ideal is disturbing to me.
(edited by Horrorscope.7632)
To the Heroes and charr of Tyria!
There be rumblins ‘bout some some big gub’mit scheme to take our aoe class weapons. Now we at the Tyrian Rifle Association aint even sure what caliber aoe is, but Balthazar -blessed are we who battle in his glory – himself wrote that our right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed! These fat-cat *Dev*ocrats think they can take our guns? They can try to pry them from our…still warm…hands… while we wait to respawn… but The Six Gods, themselves, have empowered us to stand against dis kind o’ tyranny! We must fight to keep our guns – even though guns don’t kill no one. From the lowly Pop Guns up through the mightiest of Kill Shot Cannons and whatever it is ‘dose Engineers do – All Calibers of weaponry including this aoe stuff is protected by our faith and our tradition. TRA! TRA! TRA!
(Wanted to inject a little satire.)
The guy talking about this mentioned players building for aoe over single target damage, that made no sense to me since there’s no such thing, you are given set skills so it’s not a choice, you’ll have aoe skills whether you want them or not unless you just want to ignore certain weapons entirely… Nerfing them would suck for classes like ele and make a lot of weapon sets for other classes useless too. I’m sure anet doesn’t want everyone to roll a rife war.
i dont care what they do with aoe as long as they do something. the constant aoe spam in wvw is stupid and takes a lot of fun out of pvp .
Then stop zerging, and look for small groups to travel with. Or look for ways to flank and create a concave, instead of massing up on an easily AoE’d choke point.
To a large degree, it’s a L2P issue. The fact that people STILL think that zerging a choke is a viable play style kind of tells me that AoE isn’t strong enough.
i wasnt aware that attacking a castle gate is zerging a choke point. if you dont drop the gate how else are you going to get into the castle to cap it. the fact that there can be nonstop aoe’s blocking a castle gate from only a few people inside the castle is pretty ridiculous and has nothing to do with learning to play.
AoE spells are used on large group of enemies or an enemy with large hitbox. It is a logical course of action and that isn’t an abuse. What is also not an abuse is casting AoE spells at a choke point to discourage enemies rushing in. This my friend, is called strategy with a logical mind.
If we’re not allowed to use AoE spells on a single target, then ANet might as well create a restriction that prompts the user “unable to use <spell name> on single target enemy”. Yea, I bet that would increase GW2’s popularity.
(edited by FateZero.8536)
The structuring of a character needs to be a series of PLAYER choices, balance of attack, defence and avoidance. BUT IT MUST BE A PLAYER’S CHOICE. It would be wrong for a whole heap of passive abilities appear to mitigate AoE or any particular type of damage for that matter. Passives do NOT involve player choice and can exacerbate the original problem if not very carefully constructed….and they do not give the player any sense of reward for making the right choices whether they be skills in building a character or when abilities are used.
That said the devs need to make sure that all professions have the right mix of active/closeable/skills to enable those player choices to be obvious and meaningful.
Exactly.
This is the same issue causing D/D ele to be too suvivable while preventing viability of other ele builds.
water line has too much personal passive regen.
it involves no skill, none of them are active.
people should be required to think when they play, and flat-nerfing AOE will not do that.
Water grants regeneration, there is no other passive healing. D/D Ele healing is almost all active — D2, D5, heal on attune to water if 15 water, heal on dodge if 30 arcane and in water.
downed state is bad for PVP
AoE isn’t the problem.
Elementalists are the problem.
Soloing parties full of people with their D/D bunker build.
D/D bunker struggles to kill 1 let alone 5 players, hence “bunker”. If a D/D Ele is killing people he’s not bunker specced and is fairly hard-countered by ranged damage + slows/stuns/roots/poison.
It’s funny to think AOE is judged to be a problem when Ele staff is 19/20 AOE skills and plenty of Eles regard it as crap.
downed state is bad for PVP
The structuring of a character needs to be a series of PLAYER choices, balance of attack, defence and avoidance. BUT IT MUST BE A PLAYER’S CHOICE. It would be wrong for a whole heap of passive abilities appear to mitigate AoE or any particular type of damage for that matter. Passives do NOT involve player choice and can exacerbate the original problem if not very carefully constructed….and they do not give the player any sense of reward for making the right choices whether they be skills in building a character or when abilities are used.
That said the devs need to make sure that all professions have the right mix of active/closeable/skills to enable those player choices to be obvious and meaningful.
Exactly.
This is the same issue causing D/D ele to be too suvivable while preventing viability of other ele builds.
water line has too much personal passive regen.
it involves no skill, none of them are active.
people should be required to think when they play, and flat-nerfing AOE will not do that.
Water grants regeneration, there is no other passive healing. D/D Ele healing is almost all active — D2, D5, heal on attune to water if 15 water, heal on dodge if 30 arcane and in water.
Most professions have precious-little passive healing even as bunkers, while D/D has perma-regen and the capacity to proc it at-will, and at the same time very few weapon-based evasion tools.
I repeat: Ele is innately squishier than a thief, MUCH squishier than a mesmer, but with none of the weapon-based evasions both of these professions have.
Water tree compensates so heavily for this that eles are pidgeon-holed into 20+ water builds, and again this compensation is in the “dumbest” and “least interactive” form imaginable – flat-out health regen.
It’s one thing to preserve the few traits which also benefit the party, but the ones that benefit the ele need to go in trade for active evasion tools on the weapons.
This, along with a modest HP bump for fractals, would make water-free builds far more viable and add that tiny bit of weakness to bunker builds that will stop utter immortality.
Disclaimer: I play an ele and while I love the D/D 0/10/0/30/30 play style, I don’t like feeling pidgeon-holed into low damage specs either. I want to explore the rest of the profession, too — without being rendered a floor-stain in punishment like I was at lvl 1 to 10.
(edited by plasmacutter.2709)
60 traits (30 water and 30 arcana) gives D/D ele ONE tool to survive, with very strong downsides being:
-low damage
-short range (not able to switch weapon)
Also to be survivable you need certain traiting and not only offensive burst but also defensive long CD skills (75CD mostly that cannot be traited because you already have spent your traits for healing).
Now this is not even enough in PvE where D/D eles are just BAD….
The higher the difficulty the most you are forced to use staff to stay ranged.
Also if you face any object like turrets etc you are helpless.
See in AC you cannot in any way destroy gargoyle heads…
Or again in ascalon fractal you cannot reach oil.
In www you still can be easily killed by traps, by ranged and by daze or just stacking more than 2 conditions….
Also you are helpless in sieges (people who says just switch to staff obviously never played an ele in www).
So nerf aoes….the class becomes completely unusable in PvE……where it needs a buff in every weapon set, and the worst in WWW.
Take away also some healing and you get a class without offense and no survival mechanic……that is what people were used to face……
GW2 balance:
A PvE player is supposed to avoid a 1-2 second 1 shotting aoe.
A WWW player is considered uncapable of avoiding a 5,75 second aoe for half his health.
A PvE player is supposed to avoid a 1-2 second 1 shotting aoe.
A WWW player is considered uncapable of avoiding a 5,75 second aoe for half his health.
i dont care what they do with aoe as long as they do something. the constant aoe spam in wvw is stupid and takes a lot of fun out of pvp .
Then stop zerging, and look for small groups to travel with. Or look for ways to flank and create a concave, instead of massing up on an easily AoE’d choke point.
To a large degree, it’s a L2P issue. The fact that people STILL think that zerging a choke is a viable play style kind of tells me that AoE isn’t strong enough.
i wasnt aware that attacking a castle gate is zerging a choke point. if you dont drop the gate how else are you going to get into the castle to cap it. the fact that there can be nonstop aoe’s blocking a castle gate from only a few people inside the castle is pretty ridiculous and has nothing to do with learning to play.
Its a castle, its meant to require a COMBINED effort to get in. Besides, judging by your previous posts, you`re playing a thief. Most of the professions casting those “scary aoes” from the walls are dead meat once you meet them in the open field. There are classes better designed to deal with standing in an aoe and use a ram or whatever than you. Just to quote you it`s a “l2p issue”.
Kaleygh – MNMN
3 wvw kills
3 wvw kills
i dont care what they do with aoe as long as they do something. the constant aoe spam in wvw is stupid and takes a lot of fun out of pvp .
Then stop zerging, and look for small groups to travel with. Or look for ways to flank and create a concave, instead of massing up on an easily AoE’d choke point.
To a large degree, it’s a L2P issue. The fact that people STILL think that zerging a choke is a viable play style kind of tells me that AoE isn’t strong enough.
i wasnt aware that attacking a castle gate is zerging a choke point. if you dont drop the gate how else are you going to get into the castle to cap it. the fact that there can be nonstop aoe’s blocking a castle gate from only a few people inside the castle is pretty ridiculous and has nothing to do with learning to play.
You weren’t aware that having everyone stack up in a tightly confined ball, all attacking a single point on the enemy’s tower or keep was considered “zerging a choke point”?
….doors are, by their very nature, a choke point (people can’t all rush through the same door at once). A gate is just a large door. Ergo it is a choke point and is (by its nature) a decent place to set up traps and siege to barricade a fortress.
If you can’t find more efficient ways to get into a keep than to all stack up against the door and try to stab it to death, then yes, I do believe that it’s a “L2P” issue and not an issue with AoE at all. There are flame rams, catapults, and trebuchets in this game for a reason. Really, I don’t know how this is hard.
Remember when our developers talked about “strengthening the core game”?
How’d that work out for us so far?
Now let’s try some ideas that will really work.
How’d that work out for us so far?
Now let’s try some ideas that will really work.
Just to have a reason to calm down or worry more…
Is it possible to know from Anet wich would be those AoE they saw too powerful in dungeons?
is what makes most people scared mostly because nobody sees any aside 100B.
GW2 balance:
A PvE player is supposed to avoid a 1-2 second 1 shotting aoe.
A WWW player is considered uncapable of avoiding a 5,75 second aoe for half his health.
A PvE player is supposed to avoid a 1-2 second 1 shotting aoe.
A WWW player is considered uncapable of avoiding a 5,75 second aoe for half his health.
Here is a hint what ANet thinks about staff AoE professions like necromancer in the video and elementalist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6Q0wFpVZA2s
Why all the sudden “trolling” comes to my mind?
And what it think about melee classes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plCpEbV158k
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZzaoAtW7r0
And all the sudden “awesome” comes to my mind…
True, GS has AoE yet it is nothing comparing to ele and necro AoE in terms of AoE skill. This doesn’t mean, GS player is unable to kill staff AoE ele or necro. Quite opposite! It has quite big chances.
I wouldn’t be surprised if GS are nerfed very little or left untouched at all.
But let us face it – no matter how much we plea about it, ANet decided and won’t change their mind no matter what. The difference is, I won’t play expansion(s) on useless staff ele and necro. In fact, will not play at all.
Inkarius [ele] Inkores [war] Inkratos [ran] Inkariosa [nec] MaINK The Liar [thf] Inklusion [msmr]
Currently we have absolutely horrible classes like Necromancers and Rangers who are only barely staying relevant in PvP due to their bunker builds. If they didn’t have these, they’d be second class citizens.
….
But be warned, once bunker is gone, Rangers and Necromancers will likely be pushed back down to useless status.
How is it that my longbow ranger who is almost entirely dedicated to burst damage is able to stay relevant in WvW against virtually everything it fights, save for culling-abusing thieves and defense-focused guardians?
inb4 “WvW isn’t PvP”, even though it clearly is. It’s not as fancy as sPvP perhaps but it’s clearly a form of PvP.
To be blunt, you’re grossly oversimplifying a complex issue with broad generalizations that are misleading at best. I don’t want them nerfing AoE either, but let’s not pretend that “bunker builds” are the only viable course in PvP for a ranger, because seriously, they’re not. Maybe the problem lies with you, here, not the class.
There’s a difference between you having fun and you being relevant.
And yes, there’s about 1 whole spec for Rangers and Necromancers in sPvP. In WvW you could go with a 0/0/0/0/0 build and still think you’re making a difference. And burst on a ranger is laughable. You mean with zephyr, fury, rapid shot, and vuln right after your bird crits? Ever seen what a warrior can do with the press of a single button? Or a thief can do from stealth? Because if you have, you’d know that what you consider burst and what most people consider burst are wildly different.
And don’t think I’m trying to weasel out of a nerf here. I have a Ranger and an elementalist and I’m on board with an AE nerf if it meant more direct damage options for the elementalist. But I don’t use D/D which is the major complaint and I don’t buy into the mobility being the cause of the issue. Instead it’s the healing available to the class.
(edited by Atherakhia.4086)
Someone pls show me a single video of a d/d ele doing this kind of dmg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL9mN67DwmU&feature=player_embedded#!
Someone pls show me a single video of a d/d ele doing this kind of dmg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL9mN67DwmU&feature=player_embedded#!
ANet will ignore you. Will simply state
“It is not our intention to use AoE damage against single targets” adding “so that single target professions can stand out.”. Your video partially disprove them. Yet they stick with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-919RMwyfnk
My biggest issue with this is nerfing in PvE. For PvP most ele players choose D/D and AoE of that is not big deal as with staff.
Inkarius [ele] Inkores [war] Inkratos [ran] Inkariosa [nec] MaINK The Liar [thf] Inklusion [msmr]
There’s a difference between you having fun and you being relevant.
And yes, there’s about 1 whole spec for Rangers and Necromancers in sPvP. In WvW you could go with a 0/0/0/0/0 build and still think you’re making a difference. And burst on a ranger is laughable. You mean with zephyr, fury, rapid shot, and vuln right after your bird crits?
What’s laughable is this notion that because you don’t know how to play a class properly, that it’s “useless” in WvW. Yes, clearly playing a high-damage/crit Ranger all boils down to just spamming Rapid Fire and doing nothing else, right? No wonder you find it so hard to run a Ranger if you really think that’s all it takes to master your class.
Ever seen what a warrior can do with the press of a single button? Or a thief can do from stealth? Because if you have, you’d know that what you consider burst and what most people consider burst are wildly different.
I’m perfectly aware of what warriors and thieves can do, I’m also aware of the fact that I’ve killed both of them in combat many times before….which, by your logic, should be impossible as their burst is just so much higher.
The problem with your logic, of course, is that they have to actually get close to me to use their burst damage….and as I said, I’m running a longbow, so one would think that you’d be trying to prevent direct confrontation for as long as possible. But oh no, not you. You clearly duel your warriors and thieves in broad daylight at point-blank range, like a man! ….which may be part of the reason why you think that a Ranger can’t take them on.
Ergo why I’m inclined to continue my existing belief that maybe you think Rangers are “useless” because you don’t actually know how to play one properly. You can’t wander into a field, try to fight a warrior or thief at close range on your longbow ranger, and then when you die, you start to whine and complain that the class is obviously too weak. The problem element there is you and your inability to understand how your class works. Rangers can be direct combatants if you build them that way, but if they’re running a build designed for range (like a longbow) then they shouldn’t be trying to play at close range.
And don’t think I’m trying to weasel out of a nerf here.
I don’t really care what your motivations are, to be honest. I’m just tired of hearing unskilled players complain about “useless” classes. The one and only TRULY “useless” class is the Engineer, and even a skilled Engineer can be effective at his/her craft. Both Rangers and Necromancers are perfectly effective classes….you call them useless but in actuality they’re probably the closest to a form of decent balance, or at worst they’re a little underpowered. Warriors have great damage output but it’s mostly at close range. Of the bunch of classes you’ve described, the only one with any real problems is the thief, and a good chunk of that problem is culling rather than the class itself. Sans culling, and with a bit of a backstab nerf, thieves would be just as vulnerable as anything else out there.
Remember when our developers talked about “strengthening the core game”?
How’d that work out for us so far?
Now let’s try some ideas that will really work.
How’d that work out for us so far?
Now let’s try some ideas that will really work.
(edited by critickitten.1498)
So many concerns about AoEs and so many MMOs that this work perfectly fine as it is…
Someone pls show me a single video of a d/d ele doing this kind of dmg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL9mN67DwmU&feature=player_embedded#!
Not D/D but here is an S/D Ele doing burst faster WAY faster.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyahdHO0WHk
Someone pls show me a single video of a d/d ele doing this kind of dmg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL9mN67DwmU&feature=player_embedded#!
Not D/D but here is an S/D Ele doing burst faster WAY faster.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyahdHO0WHk
Are you serious with this video or are you trolling me?
In the second case the video is worth a laugh
Critickitten, I’ve been playing the ranger archetype in every MMO that has offered it from UO, Shadowbane, EQ, AC, WoW, etc. I understand it perfectly fine and can play the class perfectly fine. It doesn’t make a difference. Fact of the matter is the melee classes have more tools than the ranger has to keep targets where they want and get targets where they want. Skill simply doesn’t factor into it when a warrior has 5 ways to get in melee range and stay there while the Ranger has 3.
Trust me, and I don’t mean to be mean, but neither you nor me are the greatest rangers this game has ever seen or better than those that have come before it. If you want to waste our time online in a match by all means look me up. I’m Zanzer on my Ranger (yes, the zHunter mod and the i.w.i.n. button Zanzer if those mean anything to you).
But the Ranger in this game is broken. I’m sorry you don’t agree and you feel it’s the greatest bow using archetype you’ve ever played and it has met your every expectation. 99% of the playerbase doesn’t agree with you.
Go ask people the list the 3 weakest classes and the 3 strongest classes in this game. I’m willing to bet it goes Guardian, Thief, Warrior … Engineer, Necromancer, Ranger. If you feel the last three I mentioned belong on the top of the list, so be it. No one agrees with you.
And this is all beside the point because if the Ranger’s AE is nerfed, it’s a blanket nerf they did to all AEs and not to single out the Ranger class.
As I said several times in this thread, I am concerned that they have only looked at one side of the AoE equation.
I am at a loss at them focusing on AoE damage output when such basic things like dodge (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Dodge-roll-randomly-fails-video-included/page/2#post1259644) is flawed and thus distorting things like AoE damage. And this is only one such issue.
However, I feel they have made up their minds would see it as an unacceptable “loss of face” to change that now, especially as it has been so widely publicized. I just don’t think they have looked hard enough at the underlying causes to get it right….easy way out is not necessarily the best way for the game’s longevity.
(edited by Oldbugga.7029)
i dont care what they do with aoe as long as they do something. the constant aoe spam in wvw is stupid and takes a lot of fun out of pvp .
Then stop zerging, and look for small groups to travel with. Or look for ways to flank and create a concave, instead of massing up on an easily AoE’d choke point.
To a large degree, it’s a L2P issue. The fact that people STILL think that zerging a choke is a viable play style kind of tells me that AoE isn’t strong enough.
i wasnt aware that attacking a castle gate is zerging a choke point. if you dont drop the gate how else are you going to get into the castle to cap it. the fact that there can be nonstop aoe’s blocking a castle gate from only a few people inside the castle is pretty ridiculous and has nothing to do with learning to play.
Its a castle, its meant to require a COMBINED effort to get in. Besides, judging by your previous posts, you`re playing a thief. Most of the professions casting those “scary aoes” from the walls are dead meat once you meet them in the open field. There are classes better designed to deal with standing in an aoe and use a ram or whatever than you. Just to quote you it`s a “l2p issue”.
no i dont play a thief nor will i ever. the problem with aoe is their cooldown timers are too short. and i play a class with an aoe ability. care to make any more assumptions?
(edited by Rikimeru Tokesbudz.3816)
-quoting your vast experience as a ranger-
Don’t really care how many rangers you’ve played.
-meaningless comparison between skill levels-
Nor did I claim to be the best Ranger ever. In fact I’m pretty amateur. I simply pointed out that if I’m doing perfectly fine and you’re not, then the problem may not be with the class but with you.
-asserting a “majority” opinion as if it’s fact-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
I never said that I thought ranger was the best class ever, and I’m amused that you have to resort to twisting my words to make a point. I simply stated that the Ranger class is not a bad class, that it’s certainly not “useless”, and that most people who tend to find it underwhelming are not playing it correctly.
If I were to pick out one big issue with it, it’d be that the pet AI is as lousy as NPC/monster AI and that pets need to be able to dodge or evade attacks if ANet expects players to dedicate large portions of their damage to them….but that still doesn’t make for too many problems, all told.
I’m not asking for people’s opinions because they’re meaningless and not based on anything resembling facts or figures. I’m telling you that your claim that the Ranger is “useless” is factually incorrect. Statistically, they work just fine. You may not like the class, you may find that it underperforms in your opinion, and that’s fine. But this assertion that they are useless, broken, and can’t do anything….leads me to believe that you’re playing it wrong, not that the fault lies with the class.
Remember when our developers talked about “strengthening the core game”?
How’d that work out for us so far?
Now let’s try some ideas that will really work.
How’d that work out for us so far?
Now let’s try some ideas that will really work.
i dont care what they do with aoe as long as they do something. the constant aoe spam in wvw is stupid and takes a lot of fun out of pvp .
Then stop zerging, and look for small groups to travel with. Or look for ways to flank and create a concave, instead of massing up on an easily AoE’d choke point.
To a large degree, it’s a L2P issue. The fact that people STILL think that zerging a choke is a viable play style kind of tells me that AoE isn’t strong enough.
i wasnt aware that attacking a castle gate is zerging a choke point. if you dont drop the gate how else are you going to get into the castle to cap it. the fact that there can be nonstop aoe’s blocking a castle gate from only a few people inside the castle is pretty ridiculous and has nothing to do with learning to play.
Using catapults of course. Having everyone stand next to the castle gate and attack it is usually a bad idea. If you do insist on it, then you just all stand in the same spot and bam, aoe from players mitigated because of the 5 person cap.
i dont care what they do with aoe as long as they do something. the constant aoe spam in wvw is stupid and takes a lot of fun out of pvp .
Then stop zerging, and look for small groups to travel with. Or look for ways to flank and create a concave, instead of massing up on an easily AoE’d choke point.
To a large degree, it’s a L2P issue. The fact that people STILL think that zerging a choke is a viable play style kind of tells me that AoE isn’t strong enough.
i wasnt aware that attacking a castle gate is zerging a choke point. if you dont drop the gate how else are you going to get into the castle to cap it. the fact that there can be nonstop aoe’s blocking a castle gate from only a few people inside the castle is pretty ridiculous and has nothing to do with learning to play.
Using catapults of course. Having everyone stand next to the castle gate and attack it is usually a bad idea. If you do insist on it, then you just all stand in the same spot and bam, aoe from players mitigated because of the 5 person cap.
i dont stand at a castle gate unless im operating a ram. catapults dont make it rain fireballs nonstop for 20 minutes, players do, and standing there watching it rain fireballs for 20 minutes nonstop from a few players is ridiculous. i play a class with aoe and it is ridiculous and need the cooldowns increased.
i dont care what they do with aoe as long as they do something. the constant aoe spam in wvw is stupid and takes a lot of fun out of pvp .
Then stop zerging, and look for small groups to travel with. Or look for ways to flank and create a concave, instead of massing up on an easily AoE’d choke point.
To a large degree, it’s a L2P issue. The fact that people STILL think that zerging a choke is a viable play style kind of tells me that AoE isn’t strong enough.
i wasnt aware that attacking a castle gate is zerging a choke point. if you dont drop the gate how else are you going to get into the castle to cap it. the fact that there can be nonstop aoe’s blocking a castle gate from only a few people inside the castle is pretty ridiculous and has nothing to do with learning to play.
Using catapults of course. Having everyone stand next to the castle gate and attack it is usually a bad idea. If you do insist on it, then you just all stand in the same spot and bam, aoe from players mitigated because of the 5 person cap.
i dont stand at a castle gate unless im operating a ram. catapults dont make it rain fireballs nonstop for 20 minutes, players do, and standing there watching it rain fireballs for 20 minutes nonstop from a few players is ridiculous. i play a class with aoe and it is ridiculous and need the cooldowns increased.
No, catapults was how you’d destroy the gate while avoiding their pesky aoe. And the fact that its player aoe was also mentioned if you read my post. Player aoe is limited to 5 targets, therefore stacking all of your zerg on top of each other will go far in mitigating the damage (if the rest of your zerg decides it does want to stand at the gate).
For reference, Meteor Shower has a base 30 second cooldown and a 4.25 second cast time. You can get its cooldown to 24 seconds if you take Pyromancer’s Alacrity, but that means you would have to go 20 points minimum into fire.
I just thought I would clear that up, since “a few” players keeping Meteor Shower going non-stop really means 5+. If your zerg is actually fighting back and forcing them to heal rather than letting them stand in place unopposed, it means there are even more players than that.
Someone pls show me a single video of a d/d ele doing this kind of dmg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL9mN67DwmU&feature=player_embedded#!
Not D/D but here is an S/D Ele doing burst faster WAY faster.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyahdHO0WHkAre you serious with this video or are you trolling me?
In the second case the video is worth a laugh
Actually being serious my friend if you compare the two videos the ele was bursting people down faster than the mesmer. Both burst enemies down very fast but just a fair point that he was doing it faster (may not have been with D/D but S/D seems pretty hearty)
Sometimes, I feels like Anet builds up strawman-style problems within their game, then forgets they’re strawmen and tries to tackle them as if they’re real problems.
There’s so many problems within this game, like condition damage, one has to wonder why they think a non-problem like AoE is a problem at all.
Someone pls show me a single video of a d/d ele doing this kind of dmg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL9mN67DwmU&feature=player_embedded#!
Not D/D but here is an S/D Ele doing burst faster WAY faster.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyahdHO0WHkAre you serious with this video or are you trolling me?
In the second case the video is worth a laughActually being serious my friend if you compare the two videos the ele was bursting people down faster than the mesmer. Both burst enemies down very fast but just a fair point that he was doing it faster (may not have been with D/D but S/D seems pretty hearty)
Guess Anet must simply give me the chance to use racial elite in PvP and of course after that all eles should switch to Norn to use Snow leopard elite….ha wait but that’s anyway another WvWvW video where people play with god know what kind or equipment…not like sPvP at all
People will cling to the most absurd stuff to try and win a discussion..but the more they try, the more stupid they appear
(edited by Arheundel.6451)
Someone pls show me a single video of a d/d ele doing this kind of dmg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL9mN67DwmU&feature=player_embedded#!
Not D/D but here is an S/D Ele doing burst faster WAY faster.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyahdHO0WHkAre you serious with this video or are you trolling me?
In the second case the video is worth a laughActually being serious my friend if you compare the two videos the ele was bursting people down faster than the mesmer. Both burst enemies down very fast but just a fair point that he was doing it faster (may not have been with D/D but S/D seems pretty hearty)
Then it wasn’t the bunker build they’re trying to nerf, because that build does not survive without also sacrificing two of 3 potential offensive stats on gear for defensive (toughness and vitality or toughness and healing power).
I have a 0/10/0/30/30 D/D ele in full exos and I’ll tell you now, the highest i’ve seen (with full might stacks and fury) is churning earth for 4.5k.
Anyone who dies to that is a glass cannon that’s supposed to be countered by bunker builds.
If they’re dying to some larger damage, I guarantee it’s either another, less survivable burst build, or the person is equipping berserker gear which means they have no toughness and 10k hp, and is tricking toolsheds into fighting him like a bunker while he goes straight in for the kill first combo.
My thoughts on aoes in pve:
I main a guardian and feel I basically have to use a gs to tag enemies (which I think everyone can agree is pretty important). When using other weapons I lose loot because they just don’t have quite the ability to tag mobs. I feel like several weaponsets need aoe love.
Recently leveled a mesmer up to 80 and similarly I feel like I have to use chaos storm just to tag mobs of enemies or else my chances of getting loot goes down. (a little frustrating when trying to use phantasms to tag groups of enemies if they just die instantly)
I think for pve they need to rethink tagging enemies a bit while they rethink aoes. If everyone loses some aoe it’s going to be much harder to tag mobs, so maybe there should be something like if you attack one enemy in a group you have a chance to tag the rest or several of them. Another possibility would be to give all professions a ‘tagging’ utility where it hits more than 5 enemies in an area for a meaningless amount of damage above 0. But, idk, should everyone be able to get loot from everything in large groups of enemies?
So AoE nerf is what Anet’s vision of “reducing” zerging in w3. Does anet dev knows that if gw2’s AoE skills has a community in facebook, our AoE’s is already laughing stocks for others game AoE after the 5 ppl cap,nerfing damage or effectiveness again? Lets take an example (prior to main target took full damage and others will get split damage idea from previous post), elems’s meteor shower hit 3k per target, the main target took 3k and splits among others for let say they remove the cap to 10, it will be kitten 300 on each target ?! U might as well remove elementalist and give me a lvl 80 thief or warrior for refund. AoE is fundamental to counter zerg in every game, by all means u want to counter zerging in w3, cap should be remove and buff dmg to aoe so ppl dont clamp together in chock point like whats happening now. Revamp maps for w3 with more smaller spacing places and chock point, so stacking up means risking to get wipe easily, more flanking point so flanking and backstab tactic actually rewarding.
There was 1 post above mention bout we need to stack at gate to take keep i think (aoe destroy ppl stacking at gate ?!). Which is very absurd because u have catapult and treb to actually snipe the wall of keep, if u choose the brainless way to zerg the door while heavy aoe is around there its ur fault to suicide, nothing much can be said there.
D/D elem being very hard to kill, funny way to pick elem as the only hard-to-kill bunker class. Try “underpower” warrior that use gs sword/shield specs with full PVT gear, defensive traits and 3 utility skill thats only good for escaping, then we will have this conversation again. Nerfing d/d bunker elem just because u had a hard time killing him/her is not a valid argument, because most bunker class are hard to kill.
And lastly if Anet decide to go on nerfing AoE which pretty much is gonna happen judging by lost shore patch, please refund all other classes (necro,elem,engi, and ranger) with a lvl 80 warrior or thief with same par of gear and at the same time while u’re doing it remove those 4 job from job selection to avoid further confusion to player that theres actually these job to play with, because we know deep down inside our heart anet will gut these job anyway.
gw2 = guardian warrior 2? get warrior 2? gifted warrior 2? go warrior2? etc etc. That is what i’m thinking bout guildwars2 the game at the momment.
My thoughts on aoes in pve:
I main a guardian and feel I basically have to use a gs to tag enemies (which I think everyone can agree is pretty important). When using other weapons I lose loot because they just don’t have quite the ability to tag mobs. I feel like several weaponsets need aoe love.
Recently leveled a mesmer up to 80 and similarly I feel like I have to use chaos storm just to tag mobs of enemies or else my chances of getting loot goes down. (a little frustrating when trying to use phantasms to tag groups of enemies if they just die instantly)
I think for pve they need to rethink tagging enemies a bit while they rethink aoes. If everyone loses some aoe it’s going to be much harder to tag mobs, so maybe there should be something like if you attack one enemy in a group you have a chance to tag the rest or several of them. Another possibility would be to give all professions a ‘tagging’ utility where it hits more than 5 enemies in an area for a meaningless amount of damage above 0. But, idk, should everyone be able to get loot from everything in large groups of enemies?
I play both an 80 ele and 80 warrior. In Orr during events, I can tag just as many mobs with my warrior (ax/mace) as my ele, all I do is move instead of standing in one spot, which is what I do with my ele. There is no appreciable difference in mob tagging between melee and aoe, unless you’re standing still and hoping mind powers or faith will make the mobs come to you.
Sometimes, I feels like Anet builds up strawman-style problems within their game, then forgets they’re strawmen and tries to tackle them as if they’re real problems.
There’s so many problems within this game, like condition damage, one has to wonder why they think a non-problem like AoE is a problem at all.
They said already “we didn’t intended to be used like that” whatever that means. If so, why all staff spells on ele and necro are AoE?
Inkarius [ele] Inkores [war] Inkratos [ran] Inkariosa [nec] MaINK The Liar [thf] Inklusion [msmr]
i dont care what they do with aoe as long as they do something. the constant aoe spam in wvw is stupid and takes a lot of fun out of pvp .
Then stop zerging, and look for small groups to travel with. Or look for ways to flank and create a concave, instead of massing up on an easily AoE’d choke point.
To a large degree, it’s a L2P issue. The fact that people STILL think that zerging a choke is a viable play style kind of tells me that AoE isn’t strong enough.
i wasnt aware that attacking a castle gate is zerging a choke point. if you dont drop the gate how else are you going to get into the castle to cap it. the fact that there can be nonstop aoe’s blocking a castle gate from only a few people inside the castle is pretty ridiculous and has nothing to do with learning to play.
Using catapults of course. Having everyone stand next to the castle gate and attack it is usually a bad idea. If you do insist on it, then you just all stand in the same spot and bam, aoe from players mitigated because of the 5 person cap.
i dont stand at a castle gate unless im operating a ram. catapults dont make it rain fireballs nonstop for 20 minutes, players do, and standing there watching it rain fireballs for 20 minutes nonstop from a few players is ridiculous. i play a class with aoe and it is ridiculous and need the cooldowns increased.
when you see people complaining of staff elementalist you really know there is a huge problem…..
One of the worst classes in great need of a really strong buff makes people complain?
This is the problem….
it seems they should start asking players with proven experience something about the class/weapon they are using, rather then listening to random complaints…
I mean ask for PvE players at higher fotm……
Asking WWW skille dplayers in those vids (don t look at numbers we all know that dphoenix and the other mesmer are skilled and random players crying about those vids shouldn t even compare to them……unless they make a vid showing similar skills)
Same for PvP**************
Most players are infact complaining about SKILLED players and seems wanting toremove skill from the equation for battle resutls…..
Also PvE is more played than www and pvp and most classes good in PvP are bad in PvE….don t need more nerfs if they don t want to just lose PvE players that already struggle…..
Also we still need details on Wich aoe are a problem in dungeon……people are concerned by that statement more than everything…..Nobody sees any AoE.
So please Anet give us some feedback on that.
*its what happens in major competitive fighting games because noway devs are more experienced in the game of some selected players….that is known since SF2.
GW2 balance:
A PvE player is supposed to avoid a 1-2 second 1 shotting aoe.
A WWW player is considered uncapable of avoiding a 5,75 second aoe for half his health.
A PvE player is supposed to avoid a 1-2 second 1 shotting aoe.
A WWW player is considered uncapable of avoiding a 5,75 second aoe for half his health.
(edited by LordByron.8369)
My thoughts on aoes in pve:
I main a guardian and feel I basically have to use a gs to tag enemies (which I think everyone can agree is pretty important). When using other weapons I lose loot because they just don’t have quite the ability to tag mobs. I feel like several weaponsets need aoe love.
Recently leveled a mesmer up to 80 and similarly I feel like I have to use chaos storm just to tag mobs of enemies or else my chances of getting loot goes down. (a little frustrating when trying to use phantasms to tag groups of enemies if they just die instantly)
I think for pve they need to rethink tagging enemies a bit while they rethink aoes. If everyone loses some aoe it’s going to be much harder to tag mobs, so maybe there should be something like if you attack one enemy in a group you have a chance to tag the rest or several of them. Another possibility would be to give all professions a ‘tagging’ utility where it hits more than 5 enemies in an area for a meaningless amount of damage above 0. But, idk, should everyone be able to get loot from everything in large groups of enemies?I play both an 80 ele and 80 warrior. In Orr during events, I can tag just as many mobs with my warrior (ax/mace) as my ele, all I do is move instead of standing in one spot, which is what I do with my ele. There is no appreciable difference in mob tagging between melee and aoe, unless you’re standing still and hoping mind powers or faith will make the mobs come to you.
Yeah, what I was saying is that i tag far fewer mobs if I use mace or sword or scepter in main hand as guardian compared to gs because it has excellent aoe. And tagging mobs with chaos storm is way more effective than trying to tag mobs with any of the other mesmer abilities. If they change/nerf aoes they need to make sure that everyone still has something they can tag enemies with.
Most players are infact complaining about SKILLED players and seems wanting toremove skill from the equation for battle resutls…..
And this is where the kitten hits the fan most of the time.
I’ve seen this happen on many occasions. Noob players cry that they are getting owned, but forget that perhaps the other player has better skill, equipment, played for longer, knows good tactics, is in a guild, etc.; so many reasons to counter this argument.
In the end, ANet is just looking at numbers, and if it fits into their “nerf bracket”, they will step in.
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I’m pretty sure the outrage comes from people who don’t understand why they would want to rework a damage mechanic that is not broken or overpowered or spammed, as has been stated by most posters.
What is so hard to understand? Skills like meteor shower from the elementalist staff does as much damage per meteor as the engineers rifle single target does.
Why should a skill do 5 times the damage to up to 5 targets then a single target skill. Now foe me, I do not feel the answer is to purely nerf the meteor shower in this case, as much as it is to raise the engineer rifle damage in this comparison as well.
Poor craftsman blame their tools. Poor players blame their Engineer.
What truly baffles me personally, is that they choose to rebuild AoE skills, when condition damage is actually broken in itself.
Anet appears to have a backwards concept of wanting to play with balancing issues as a priority over fixing broken aspects.
I believe that a lot of the outrage over the AoE issue stems from people who, like you, think there are a lot of aspects of play that ANet ought to be fixing, and that AoE is not one of them.
I think so too. And I think we’re right. What’s the point of balancing a broken system? Fix the bugs then balance the game.
Unfortunately, what they are trying to do is hobble a piece of kitten system together to get tournaments and guild wars up and fully operational. They don’t see balance as important as they do, getting back all of the PvP elites that left after they realized how bad the GW2 meta is.
I’m pretty sure the outrage comes from people who don’t understand why they would want to rework a damage mechanic that is not broken or overpowered or spammed, as has been stated by most posters.
What is so hard to understand? Skills like meteor shower from the elementalist staff does as much damage per meteor as the engineers rifle single target does.
Why should a skill do 5 times the damage to up to 5 targets then a single target skill. Now foe me, I do not feel the answer is to purely nerf the meteor shower in this case, as much as it is to raise the engineer rifle damage in this comparison as well.
What is the cool down on firing your rifle? What is the cast time on firing your rifle? Can you move and fire your rifle? In the same time it takes to cast meteor shower, how many things proc’d off of your rifle fire? Each attack has strengths and weaknesses, everyone wants the best of not both worlds, but ALL the worlds. While the engie may have need of buffs, it doesn’t come from meteor shower being the way it is.
(edited by killcannon.2576)
My friends,
Anet is suggesting we bring single target builds to a aoe fight. Instead of doing what is right and using aoe skills to kill groups of monsters. But there is a problem…..most encounters in gw2 are with groups of monsters fighting you. Single mob fights are quite rare, I’d say 85% of fights consist of groups of mobs attacking you….while the other 15% is a single target fight.
A aoe change would make the game worse, due to the fact that CC is quite weak. Typically in many mmos, to assist single target damage dealers you use CC to immobilize, sleep etc the mobs. But in gw2, things like immobilize last 2 secs, blind is only on next hit and so forth. So there is no time to CC and single target dps a mob then move to the next one.
GW2 is a aoe game, so its natural for everyone to use aoe skills over single target ones. In fact, I wondered why single target skills even existed in the game, thinking that maybe it was a mistake. If Anet wants single target skills to become stronger all they have to do is simple increase the amount of single mob encounters.
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What truly baffles me personally, is that they choose to rebuild AoE skills, when condition damage is actually broken in itself.
Anet appears to have a backwards concept of wanting to play with balancing issues as a priority over fixing broken aspects.
I believe that a lot of the outrage over the AoE issue stems from people who, like you, think there are a lot of aspects of play that ANet ought to be fixing, and that AoE is not one of them.
I think so too. And I think we’re right. What’s the point of balancing a broken system? Fix the bugs then balance the game.
Unfortunately, what they are trying to do is hobble a piece of kitten system together to get tournaments and guild wars up and fully operational. They don’t see balance as important as they do, getting back all of the PvP elites that left after they realized how bad the GW2 meta is.
I am not sure about that either way. However, if it is ANet’s motivation, and they go through with the change, then I suspect they are going to be disappointed. My former guild was heavily dominated by PvP players from GW1, who moved back to LoL and other PvP games since GW2 PvP was bad. Not one of them complained about AoE. Instead, they were talking about lack of compelling game modes and lack of incentives to play.
Aoe isn’t really the problem here its the fact that single target skills suck. Stop nerfing things and buff things that need buffing.
Take a warriors axe main hand….. full dps gear your looking around 3k on crit auto attacking. Now look at other class’s single target while also running a full dps build….. its no contest.
Fact is they did a horrible job balancing skills and weapons.
And again if you nerf AOE you kill pretty much every elementalist spec out there lol. Because over half their skills are gasp aoe’s and even with aoe’s they dont compare to a warriors single target dps, which also hits multiple targets I might add.