Guild Wars 2

AoE is a false problem caused by players not using their brains- that includes you too devs. If you (devs) do not approve of the zerging going on in w3 then you need to increase player-based AOE damage as that is our most efficient tool for punishing a herd mentality. Also on the w3 front, players use their own aoe skills in keeps etc because they are not restricted by the protection of supply- if in-game aoe was made more accessible then players would use that preferentially to their own aoe damage skills. You (devs) have already nerfed AoE with the 5-target cap and if you make the damage less, increase cooltimes, reduce radii etc then you will be flying in the face of the majority of the games’ design (and your own desires too, apparently).

I am also against the idea of targets taking differing amounts of damage from the same AoE skill. If i am caught in a grenade blast, the only way i will take less damage is if there is something solid (like a brick wall) between me and the source of the blast. If you throw a grenade into a bunch of people they will all take similar damage unless they use someone else as a meat shield. In this example though, the grenade is considered a pbaoe, as true aoe simply covers an area and would be more akin to radiation, or a pool of acid, or a gas cloud- it doesn’t matter if you stand in the centre or the edge, you will still get radiation sickness/start dissolving/be gassed. If i fall into a punji pit, it doesn’t matter if i land in the middle or the edge- i will still be impaled. These are true AoE and the way to avoid aoe damage is to not be in the area affected- is that too hard for ppl to understand? The game even gives us a nice red circle and (usually) the time to get out of it- should there be an audio countdown as long as you’re in the aoe too? Seems like a L2p issue more than anything else…

plasmacutter.2709:

I have to quote this here because Devs need to see this, it’s dead on accurate in the way the vast majority of the community sees this.
You complain about AOE stomping in zergs but subject alpha in your own dungeons does this, and it’s definitely an L2P issue, not an AOE issue.

Nerfing AoE (not just on the ele), shows a clear disconnect in how the game plays and how the devs see things. Their disconnect with reality is doubled down when they talk about AoEing downed players as a problem. If a bunch of horribles want to run up and try to revive people under heavy AoE , that is a massive L2P issue, not a game balance issue. Use a rez signet like a halfway intelligent person. Push enemies back or suppress them with counter fire before you attempt to revive.
It’s not just their conclusion that is terrible, it’s the incredibly ignorant and nonsensical logic that they use to validated it. ANet has shown repeatedly that they don’t understand how to balance the game. When they come out and say that they plan to make a shockingly bad gameplay adjustment like this, everyone should be up in arms. They’re clearly not going to reach a good decision on their own.

Add to this the spurious “issues” of “opportunity costs” and not using AoE on single targets. The GW2 weapon skill systems locks players into certain skills. Often, a weapon will have something like one ST attack (often the #1), 1 AoE, and 3 situational skills (knock, daze, cripple, etc.). If you play intelligently, you don’t use the situational skills unless the situation requires it. In cases like this, people are using that 1 AoE on a single target because using just skill 1 on auto-attack gets boring.

There’s also the fact that players do not always play intelligently. If I had a silver for every time since head-start I have been in an event and a longbow ranger did his knock-away shot to a mob that was nowhere near him, I would be halfway to buying a precursor. Many players spam their skills as soon as they are off CD, regardless of whether it makes sense or not. This is another issue with why AoE gets used indiscriminately.

If they are going to change things so that it makes sense to only use ST skills on a single target, they are going to have to do a major rewrite of the skills system to provide more ST options. The current system is the reason that AoE gets used so much. Just lessening the effectiveness of AoE without a major revision to the whole system will just kitten the system (more than it already is).

People use AoE’s in GW2 becauase they’re attacked by half a dozen mobs at a time! What earthly use are single target powers when you’re knee deep in angry mobs?

Nerfed AoE’s will need a corresponding nerf to the ridiculous sizes of groups of mobs we’re expected to deal with.

Voxdeus.1034:

ANET devs talked in the chat/stream today (and in the recent past in blog posts) about nerfing Area of Effect abilities, which they see as a problem because there’s not a high enough opportunity cost to bring AoE, and it leads to weird things like players ignoring single target abilities even on single targets, choosing to use heavy AoE instead of stomping players in PvP, etc.

This doesn’t match my experience at all, except possibly in WvW. And I don’t see why any one should be able to safely rez a downed player in the midst of a massive zerg vs zerg, unless they take exceptional measures like popping invincibility and quickness, or having an “insta rez” utility equipped.

I guess what I’m saying is that I don’t really see this supposed problem at all. I see that the game has an incredibly large number of AoE abilities, and so they are basically unavoidable to use, but I don’t see people deferring on single target damage, because at the end of the day, 1v1 or killing bosses is really important to a lot of players, and even small damage advantages for single target abilities make them very attractive to use.

Am I alone on this? Are other people running into this problem of not feeling that single target abilities are not presenting a reasonable advantage in certain situations, and if so, can you provide some examples?

I think they skills set now were great as is. Anet is really tearing this game apart by doing these class nerfs. Guardians should be able to tank bosses imo they should honestly bump up defense on tanks so they can take tons more dmg (at least on guardians) They have good survival skills but can get dropped pretty quick for being “the best survival tanking class” in game… Also the AoEs aren’t all that great. Idk why players even complain about them… As for mistform I think it’s an essential skill/tool to have to be invulnerable while rezzing. Easy to pick up their leader so no chaos rises and they can regroup rerally and fight.

I just run a dungeon with a friend and three random people after searching for about one hour. As you might imagine we didn’t tell the last guy, we don’t want him, because he was guardian (we alrady had 2 other guardians).
So we startetd the dungeon and it took about 2 hours and many deaths to complete it. I know that might have been bad luck, since you can also be lucky, get some good players and do it without dieing once in less than half of the time.

What I’m driving at is the necessarity of good (maybe even a bit overpowered) skills. We don’t need another nerf, the game is already hard enough for casual players. I love this game, but I just don’t have time to get new ascended stuff, or at least it’ll take months.
I get more and more the feeling, we really need the new items to get around in this hard and crucial word of Guild Wars 2, but as people start to get these items, they begin to get overpowered and have to get nerfed againt. So it leads to a vicious circle that’s very dangerours for us endangered casual players.

A whole lot more context is needed for your anecdote, I’m afraid.

• What dungeon was it?
• Was it a story dungeon or explorable?
• What gear did each person in the group have?
• What professions were you and your friend?
• What weapons did each person in the group use?

There are plenty of explanations for your experience, the most likely of which is that one (or more) of your group were playing sub-optimally.

Without more information, we cannot really draw any conclusions about game balance.

Snowshadow.3105:

What I’m driving at is the necessarity of good (maybe even a bit overpowered) skills. We don’t need another nerf, the game is already hard enough for casual players. I love this game, but I just don’t have time to get new ascended stuff, or at least it’ll take months.
I get more and more the feeling, we really need the new items to get around in this hard and crucial word of Guild Wars 2, but as people start to get these items, they begin to get overpowered and have to get nerfed againt. So it leads to a vicious circle that’s very dangerours for us endangered casual players.

This is very well summarized and I never really understood the danger of adding a new tier of armor/weapons until reading this. For myself, I really have little interest in doing fractals…so ascended gear is out. Now, if they make the new creature strength baseline for ascended gears and nerf everything to match, then I take a permanent hit to my strength…all be cause I play the game the way I want…not the way they want, which is contrary to their stated mission plan.

As many have said there is a disconnect between what the devs think and reality. If anything, AOE is underpowered in most circumstances. Sure, you get 8 or 10 strong necros AOE spamming a pinch point, it’s going to seem overpowered, but that’s good strategy against berserker-mentality zergs. Most AOE users are much less useful in an open-field battle. I know the limitations of my class and tend to hang back to do support, poisons, cripples, fear, etc…anything to slow them down to help big damage dealers make the kill. AOE is too slow for close range, DD is too weak to be effective (Well, on my condition damage build). This all only applies to WvW, perhaps PvP, since I’ve never tried it, and if they think AOE is overpowered in PvE, they’re completely daft!!!!

Do they even play their own game? They should get “real” accounts…not these special privileged accounts I’m sure most of the staff at ANet have.

So AOE is overpowered according to most and what not, but have we all forgotten something elementals are a “Damage Dealing class” its what we do, we do “Damage”.

And im not going to pretend i can take damage because i cant, i am not built for that, ANET has stated there is No Trinity, but guess what you may have eliminated the roll of healers, but you will never get rid of people trying to build their class to do as much Damage as possible. And then when the game is not going the way you planned it, the first thing anyone says is Nerf this or Nerf that this is too overpowered.

It is a never ending cycle of Nerf, and we have seen it sooo many times in other games

If you really want to talk about Overpowered, Why not Nerf Thiefs, we have NO chance against them especially when they get the jump on you you dead before you can even cast the Dreaded Overpowered AOE that everyone is so afraid of.

And how exactly is AOE overpowered in PvE content? I am not really sure how some have come to that conclusion if at all as PvE is mostly solo my AOE does not affect others that is a fact, as i don’t care how much damage another class does in PvE.

Instead of Nerfing everything why doesn’t ANET make more WvW maps good gracious every week you go into WvW and everyone’s borderlands are the “Same”!!

Would be nice if the 3 borderland maps were different then you would actually feel like you where fighting another server, i am surprised no one has brought this up yet or maybe i just haven’t seen the thread but in any case “Go work on adding Content” instead of trying to nerf things, leave that for a little way down the road.

I am going to jump into this thread wo reading most of the posts because there’s a bit too many.

In my opinion, AoE is absolutely not the problem.
The problem is ANet has lost grip on balance long, long ago, if they ever had it, which is actually surprising since they decided to drop secondary classes and link skills to weapons because – they said – it will hep them balance things out.

AoE is a problem and needs to feel the nerf bat. That some AoE does more damage than single opponent skills is just unfair. Add to that the ground denial, the stacking of AoE fields for multiple simultaneous damage sources, and the fire and forget nature of most AoE and it becomes absolutely rediculous. Anybody claiming otherwise is just trying to unfairly protect their AoE advantage.

That being said, any nerf to AoE should not be a generic, across the board nerf. Buffs need to be applied to classes the would otherwise become underpowered through the AoE nerf, and alternatives to AoE skills need to be present on all weapon sets.

Where an AoE skill is problematic only against opoosing players, AoE nerfs should be incorporated in a PvP/PvE skill split; note that WvW uses the PvE version of these skills – a fact which should also be changed.

The nerf should also me minimal, using buffs to single target skills to offset the AoE advantage in addition to just nerfing AoE. It is important that all classes become, and remain, viable and desired in all parts of the game.

AoE is not a problem, havoc. If you don’t know how to play, don’t write. Some AoE does more than a single opponent skills, it is fair enough. Lower damage skills have some other bonuses mostly to compensate for lower damage, if you don’t use them properly, your fault. A field is a field, almost always you can go out of that area, if you are not thinking to move, it is again your fault. AoE damage meant to deal a bit lower damage than single target skills but across an area, and many of them for some reason limited for number of players, and such are not “real area of effect”. I’ve seen that a lot when an AoE based skill doesn’t affect the whole area (sometimes for some reason opponents fields or skills wouldn’t damage me either).
Also, if you are not moving away, it is your problem, the game is not played by the model of : “Hack,slash,buckle buckle”. Unlike other games, here you need to think a bit more, and by the way the devs nerf the game, we will not have to plan or think about anything soon. Planning of the actions and how to utilize my skills to make the most of them, was one of the best things in game.
For example, plant a field against 1 player, us that field to increase the output damage or increasing defense or just healing, and continue spamming SINGLE -TARGET SKILLS on the opponent. 1) if you are not moving away from the field, your fault. Some AoE skills do damage but they have other effects as well, using them for the effect only against single enemy, not because of damage (but +10 damage is already something, so why not use it?)
Also, havoc, if you are standing in field, and one player attacks while other supports the opponent – it is called co-operation. And such thing should be prized, because it is rare in our days, and it makes people like you cry, which in turn makes me happy. That somebody got kitten. also most of the time players are buffed, geared diffidently and some even make their build to output as much damage as possible while sacrificing defense, health and such. Aoe is not a problem. Devs should play more with the players and not with themselves (that’s what makes it so funny, get it?) in the studio.

Danepher.5263:

AoE is not a problem, havoc. If you don’t know how to play, don’t write. Some AoE does more than a single opponent skills, it is fair enough. Lower damage skills have some other bonuses mostly to compensate for lower damage, if you don’t use them properly, your fault. A field is a field, almost always you can go out of that area, if you are not thinking to move, it is again your fault. AoE damage meant to deal a bit lower damage than single target skills but across an area, and many of them for some reason limited for number of players, and such are not “real area of effect”. I’ve seen that a lot when an AoE based skill doesn’t affect the whole area (sometimes for some reason opponents fields or skills wouldn’t damage me either).
Also, if you are not moving away, it is your problem, the game is not played by the model of : “Hack,slash,buckle buckle”. Unlike other games, here you need to think a bit more, and by the way the devs nerf the game, we will not have to plan or think about anything soon. Planning of the actions and how to utilize my skills to make the most of them, was one of the best things in game.
For example, plant a field against 1 player, us that field to increase the output damage or increasing defense or just healing, and continue spamming SINGLE -TARGET SKILLS on the opponent. 1) if you are not moving away from the field, your fault. Some AoE skills do damage but they have other effects as well, using them for the effect only against single enemy, not because of damage (but +10 damage is already something, so why not use it?)
Also, havoc, if you are standing in field, and one player attacks while other supports the opponent – it is called co-operation. And such thing should be prized, because it is rare in our days, and it makes people like you cry, which in turn makes me happy. That somebody got kitten. also most of the time players are buffed, geared diffidently and some even make their build to output as much damage as possible while sacrificing defense, health and such. Aoe is not a problem. Devs should play more with the players and not with themselves (that’s what makes it so funny, get it?) in the studio.

This is exactly what I expected. Scream L2P in rediculous defense of your abuse of an OP tactic. If you knew how to play, you wouldn’t need this crutch, so right back at you.

havoc.6814:

This is exactly what I expected. Scream L2P in rediculous defense of your abuse of an OP tactic. If you knew how to play, you wouldn’t need this crutch, so right back at you.

Haha seriously? Anet listen to those people? AoE is part of the game, every game, whether it is mmo or even simulators, and if you really need this statement – irl also. It is a part of a tactical thinking, and if you don’t want to think slightly with it. go away.
I don’t need AoE to defeat you or any other player, but it is a must addition to any game. Telling me if I knew to play I wouldn’t need that, is kitten. Swing anything with your hands around you and you will see some items get more damage that others. that’s irl and that’s the logic behind AoE in game. Your equip, skills, bonuses, and many other things affect the damage you get from AoE or even single target skills. Go cry somewhere else. AoE is good where it is now although it “kitten” already, feeling sorry for Elementalists.

havoc.6814:

This is exactly what I expected. Scream L2P in rediculous defense of your abuse of an OP tactic. If you knew how to play, you wouldn’t need this crutch, so right back at you.

Elementalists have nothing but AoE, with the exception of 2 or 3 skills across all weapon sets. Using AoE isn’t a crutch – it’s a necessity due to the lack of alternatives.

All AoE have red circle indicators for you to move out of quickly to minimize damage. Most AoE, especially many of the Elementalist AoE, has delayed damage, allowing the alert player to move out before any damage occurs. Many AoE spells introduce varying opportunity costs, such as long cast times and/or rooting the caster.

A good example is Meteor Shower – it has a 4 second channel (which can be interrupted), roots the Elementalist for the duration of the cast, has a large red ring, has an unmistakable flashy effect, and the random nature of the meteors could even mean that the intended target never gets hit.

Contrast that sharply with a Thief, which can stealth, wait for a player, then unload 15+k single-target damage inside a few seconds.

So yes, it is very much a L2P issue.

• Be aware of your surroundings.
• Run out of red circles if you are taking too much damage.
• Learn to dodge.
• Avoid choke points by using siege to open up multiple paths, or run through them quickly rather than standing still.
• Learn to heavily utilize blast combos with teammates’ water, ethereal, and light fields.
• And don’t let that Elementalist stand in one place and cast big AoEs uncontested.

@Danepher: You totally fail to state a real argument against AOE nerfs. You are just attacking me in an attempt to preserve your AOE crutch. Your biggest mistake is assuming that I am somehow failing to deal with AOE. In fact, I run several AOE using classes and benefit from their OPness. I, however, am totally capable of playing well without that AOE. You, apparently, are not.

@ATMAvatar: If you had bothered to read my original post, you would know that I do not support a generic AOE nerf, and stated quite specifically that single target skill options were needed in som skill sets. Thank you for your tips, but I already know how to deal with AOE. Often I am “that elementalist” you’re giving me advice against. Do you honestly expect a warrior for example, who neads to be on his target to do damage, to run out of every red circle? That poor warrior would never get anything done if he followed your rather poor advice. Lol, they are too easy to kill already….. Trying to hide the OPness of AoE behind the broken stealth tactics of thieves? Really? Is that your best argument? Why dont you actually go read my post, and then try to think beyond your own character?

I stand by my opinion, AoE does need nerfing, but that nerfing needs to be kept to a minimum and accompanied by buffing to establish and maintain class balance in all parts of the game.

havoc.6814:

@Danepher: You totally fail to state a real argument against AOE nerfs. You are just attacking me in an attempt to preserve your AOE crutch. Your biggest mistake is assuming that I am somehow failing to deal with AOE. In fact, I run several AOE using classes and benefit from their OPness. I, however, am totally capable of playing well without that AOE. You, apparently, are not.

Of course. I stated everything that needs to be stated. AoE doesn’t need to be nerfed, not even by a minimum and class buffing should not come at an expanse of AoE. I un-like you, know how to deal with it when it is used against me, unlike you which knows only how to run AoE classes and use AoE against others. I play a ranger, and mostly my attack are single targeted, unless I use Barrage. Done? barrage isn’t effective against that effective against 1 target, and thus I don’t use it often. Un-like you I RUN a sinle targeted class, unlike you who runs AoE classes and says that you can play without them.
Don’t play them then, but you cry about them being OP, which they are clearly not. Mainly for example is an elementalist that has heavy AoE damage, but it is compensated by his low defence (go play a ranger against ele for example, 1 vs 1, most of the time you will lose). AoE is great but some classes rely on AoE skills heavilly, so, with further ado , it is YOUR L2P problem.

havoc.6814:

This is exactly what I expected. Scream L2P in rediculous defense of your abuse of an OP tactic. If you knew how to play, you wouldn’t need this crutch, so right back at you.

Have you EVER played a caster class in GW2? If you had, you should know that the strategy with them is completely different. While the necro, for instance, has lots of life, it’s still only a light armor user and could never go toe to toe with a warrior in a straight up DD fight. It’s not meant/designed for that kind of battle. If I’m 1:1 against a warrior, I kite/dodge, hit them with DD, while using AOE to keep them weakened/crippled/poisoned/etc. The strongest DD I have, without doing combo fields, is probably Ghastly Claws, axe main hand, but it take 2 1/4 seconds to complete and is nothing compared to what a warrior can inflict. There are summoned minions for DD, which are good in PvE, but they go down far too readily in WvW and their refresh time is far too long to truly make them useful. Casting them also lets others know, an easy-kill necro is about and gives away your position. Granted, I could change my build to deal more DD, but I might as well be a warrior then…at least then if I’m going to play like a warrior, I’d get the armor bonus. While I embrace the weaknesses/strengths of my chosen class, as others have, you choose to whine and complain about it…and that’s fine too.

Danepher.5263:

havoc.6814:

@Danepher: You totally fail to state a real argument against AOE nerfs. You are just attacking me in an attempt to preserve your AOE crutch. Your biggest mistake is assuming that I am somehow failing to deal with AOE. In fact, I run several AOE using classes and benefit from their OPness. I, however, am totally capable of playing well without that AOE. You, apparently, are not.

Of course. I stated everything that needs to be stated. AoE doesn’t need to be nerfed, not even by a minimum and class buffing should not come at an expanse of AoE. I un-like you, know how to deal with it when it is used against me, unlike you which knows only how to run AoE classes and use AoE against others. I play a ranger, and mostly my attack are single targeted, unless I use Barrage. Done? barrage isn’t effective against that effective against 1 target, and thus I don’t use it often. Un-like you I RUN a sinle targeted class, unlike you who runs AoE classes and says that you can play without them.
Don’t play them then, but you cry about them being OP, which they are clearly not. Mainly for example is an elementalist that has heavy AoE damage, but it is compensated by his low defence (go play a ranger against ele for example, 1 vs 1, most of the time you will lose). AoE is great but some classes rely on AoE skills heavilly, so, with further ado , it is YOUR L2P problem.

Sigh. Again you make assumptions which are totally false, and build a personal attack based upon your own false pretenses. You are really failing here.

I said I run several AoE using professions, not that I run exclusively AoE using professions. I also run a warrior, a thief, and a ranger. In fact the only professions that I have not levelled are necromancer and engineer. I not only know how to use and abuse AoE, I also know how to deal with it.

Also, think about how AOE is implemented in this game…compared to real life…it’s already nerfed. IRL a poison cloud does not have a hit limit and the more poison you’re given the faster you die, a radiation field does not only damage 5 people and stronger the radiation…the faster you die…, a fire hurts everyone in the affected area…I bet you know where I’m going with this…, etc… I miss the old days of gaming, when people had to actually think and plan for such things. In Morrowind for example, yes, I know it’s not MMO, if you became poisoned, or infected with some disease you needed an antidote for it or it would gradually drain your life/stamina indefinitely….this is how such conditions are supposed to work. Gamers these days are far too coddled.

Havoc, nobody “fails” here, my assumptions are right and many other players stand with those assumptions, necros and eles alike. You refuse to realise that you have a problem with it. Nobody “abuses” AoE. It is fine. Maybe some AoE skills are OP from some classes, but not the AoE in general or all AoE skills. it is an L2P issue of yours which for some reason you refuse to understand and learn to play with it.

Should I say again that I almost always use single targeted skills while many times being a target of AoE skills? Sure if many will use AoE skills at a point on a map and everybody are kitten enough to understand that you are going down if you will not move, that is your own problem? That what people call group pressure. And it works great against those just like running in a group without any coordination, or such who are just kitten.

I’m not “attacking” you, my way of stating my position maybe is more aggressive than others but it is not an “attack” as you are thinking.

Danepher.5263:

it is an L2P issue of yours which for some reason you refuse to understand and learn to play with it.

I have a level 80 necro, with full exotics equipped to maximize necro skills carrion/necromancer armor with sigils of corruption on pearl carrion weapons…lots of condition damage, health and power. Traits are also specifically selected to maximize my carrion/necromancer/corruption build. I rarely go down in PvE, even less so in a group, a lot more often in WvW, but that’s the nature of the environment and the known weakness of my build…which I work with and function more as battle support. Playing a necromancer, wearing carrion necromancer armor and carrion corruption weapons…condition damage, hence AOE is a primary attack for me, given that 2/3+ of my attacks and slot skills ARE AOE. This is as per design of the class…maximizing my inherent class strengths… How is this not understanding how to play? Enlighten me.

Leamas that wasn’t for you =.=’ My comment was for havoc.

Yeah Leamas, he was still trying in vain to convince me of his überskillz. You’re doing it right, no worries

Danepher.5263:

Leamas that wasn’t for you =.=’ My comment was for havoc.

Apologies…though I still disagree AOE is over-powered…but we can agree to disagree.

The game does not need more nerfs. Unless of course you want to drive everyone away from this game. I have about had it already with all the nerfs. Your latest “knee jerk reaction” nerf to the guardians spirit weapons was uncalled for. You totally destroyed it, literally. Now you want to do this to the AOE skills.

I get the impression that the person doing this nerfing is getting beat in PvP and is angry.

havoc.6814:

Yeah Leamas, he was still trying in vain to convince me of his überskillz. You’re doing it right, no worries

You are wrong and you know it. Go troll somewhere else. You are the Weakest Link, goodbye!

havoc.6814:

Danepher.5263:

AoE is not a problem, havoc. If you don’t know how to play, don’t write. Some AoE does more than a single opponent skills, it is fair enough. Lower damage skills have some other bonuses mostly to compensate for lower damage, if you don’t use them properly, your fault. A field is a field, almost always you can go out of that area, if you are not thinking to move, it is again your fault. AoE damage meant to deal a bit lower damage than single target skills but across an area, and many of them for some reason limited for number of players, and such are not “real area of effect”. I’ve seen that a lot when an AoE based skill doesn’t affect the whole area (sometimes for some reason opponents fields or skills wouldn’t damage me either).
Also, if you are not moving away, it is your problem, the game is not played by the model of : “Hack,slash,buckle buckle”. Unlike other games, here you need to think a bit more, and by the way the devs nerf the game, we will not have to plan or think about anything soon. Planning of the actions and how to utilize my skills to make the most of them, was one of the best things in game.
For example, plant a field against 1 player, us that field to increase the output damage or increasing defense or just healing, and continue spamming SINGLE -TARGET SKILLS on the opponent. 1) if you are not moving away from the field, your fault. Some AoE skills do damage but they have other effects as well, using them for the effect only against single enemy, not because of damage (but +10 damage is already something, so why not use it?)
Also, havoc, if you are standing in field, and one player attacks while other supports the opponent – it is called co-operation. And such thing should be prized, because it is rare in our days, and it makes people like you cry, which in turn makes me happy. That somebody got kitten. also most of the time players are buffed, geared diffidently and some even make their build to output as much damage as possible while sacrificing defense, health and such. Aoe is not a problem. Devs should play more with the players and not with themselves (that’s what makes it so funny, get it?) in the studio.

This is exactly what I expected. Scream L2P in rediculous defense of your abuse of an OP tactic. If you knew how to play, you wouldn’t need this crutch, so right back at you.

I completely agree with this, AoE is a crutch that requires no skill.
AoE-ing a door just aiming at the floor requires no skill. They don’t have to decide who to targer and how to CC them to keep them from coming it. Attacking the door already does that.
Improve staff eles 1 vs 1 and necro staffs 1 vs 1 so they will be on par with others as well to make up for it.

Causic.3798:

I completely agree with this, AoE is a crutch that requires no skill.
AoE-ing a door just aiming at the floor requires no skill. They don’t have to decide who to targer and how to CC them to keep them from coming it. Attacking the door already does that.
Improve staff eles 1 vs 1 and necro staffs 1 vs 1 so they will be on par with others as well to make up for it.

By your logic, the whole game doesn’t require skill.
Wasn’t talking about the door but at any point on the map where there are a group of players who stick together. And no just attacking the door doesn’t give AoE damage to people unless they are really close to it. And yes you have to decide in some situation who to target.
What bugs me is that you guys cannot deal with it. Looks like you got kitten a lot by AoE. There is no other explanation to it. Why would you want to increase single target damage which is already good and nerf ele’s and necro’s AoE (which already kitten)? AoE doesn’t need a nerf. Learn to deal with it when it is against you. All you have to do is dodge/move from it. that’s all.

To those for the AoE nerf on this page:
Really, l2p. If you take full damage from an AoE that ticks damage over a period of time then you REALLY have to l2p. Do I get a giant red flashing light over my head when someone is about to hit me with a single target skill? No. AoE already has a lot of balancing aspects thrown into it. AoE can’t hit more than 5 targets and most of them have a long startup time, long cast times, roots the player, have long cooldowns, puts shiny red circle on the ground, and some (meteor shower) may not even hit anybody! They do more damage in total because if you get hit with it I cover my face in shame at your inability to react to avoidable damage.

If you don’t think that balances it out then imagine this: What if thieves heartseeker (or w/e skill that kills in a hit or two) had a 2 second cast time the first time they used it on a player (still better than aoes, not even counting massive cooldowns) even when invisible and also flashed a red icon over the players head. Now if the player is still hit and killed it is most definitely their own fault because they had all the warning in the world.

Causic.3798:

I completely agree with this, AoE is a crutch that requires no skill.
AoE-ing a door just aiming at the floor requires no skill. They don’t have to decide who to targer and how to CC them to keep them from coming it. Attacking the door already does that.

No, I agree, AOE spamming the floor in front of door requires no skill…unless, of course, that’s where you meant to put it. Where the skill comes in is knowing where to place your marks to maximize the damage and defense. If you’re the invading, identifying the potential spots AOE is likely to be used is where skill comes in…pinch points, doorways, arches…use your brains. Use something to mitigate the damage, something to remove/consume conditions or find another way. AOE is best against the berserker run-in-blindly, blades-swinging mentality type, who then scream foul. Sometimes the front door is not the best way…this is strategy.

If AOE effectiveness is nerfed at all, there will be little use in using the caster classes, unless you build them to deal mostly DD, at which point, it’s just as well to use a warrior.

Evenly matched, my necro will easily take down a berserker mentality warrior and they will of course call foul. I’d have little chance against a smart warrior, one who watches what they’re doing and pays attention.

havoc.6814:

@ATMAvatar: If you had bothered to read my original post, you would know that I do not support a generic AOE nerf, and stated quite specifically that single target skill options were needed in som skill sets. Thank you for your tips, but I already know how to deal with AOE. Often I am “that elementalist” you’re giving me advice against. Do you honestly expect a warrior for example, who neads to be on his target to do damage, to run out of every red circle? That poor warrior would never get anything done if he followed your rather poor advice. Lol, they are too easy to kill already….. Trying to hide the OPness of AoE behind the broken stealth tactics of thieves? Really? Is that your best argument? Why dont you actually go read my post, and then try to think beyond your own character?

I did read your post. You seem to lack the understanding of how AoE works and what it is intended to do. You lack the understanding of the downsides of AoE in the game as it stands currently, because your arguments entirely depend on the idea that you should be able to stand in AoE and survive. It’s clearly OP because you can’t ignore it.

AoE, as its name implies, is for area denial. If you refuse to leave the area that AoE covers, you need to L2P. It isn’t very difficult.

With that in mind, yes, I expect the warrior to run out of the red circle, swap to a ranged weapon, and attack that way if there are too many area spells in effect on his/her target. That’s the primary purpose of AoE.

ATMAvatar.5749:

I did read your post. You seem to lack the understanding of how AoE works and what it is intended to do. You lack the understanding of the downsides of AoE in the game as it stands currently, because your arguments entirely depend on the idea that you should be able to stand in AoE and survive. It’s clearly OP because you can’t ignore it.

AoE, as its name implies, is for area denial. If you refuse to leave the area that AoE covers, you need to L2P. It isn’t very difficult.

With that in mind, yes, I expect the warrior to run out of the red circle, swap to a ranged weapon, and attack that way if there are too many area spells in effect on his/her target. That’s the primary purpose of AoE.

So you think that a skill on your bar should give you the right to control where your opponents position themselves. Get real. You don’t get to do that. I don’t need to l2p, because I’m the guy who takes you AOE users down a notch, sometimes even using AoE to do it.

The problem here is that AoE promotes stupid players. There is really nothing skilled about it. It is a crutch and you are leaning on it. You need to learn to live without it though, because I need the challenge that you are not providing me. Do you really think that you can win a proverbial race while leaning on your crutch? AoE is silly stupid and relying upon it is even more so.

In supporting the idea of an AoE nerf, I am hoping that maybe you will eventually learn to play and the game won’t be such a cake walk for me. It would be nice to run up against more skilled players in the game. Luckily, Anet seems to agree with me and is bringing out the nerf bat. Now we have all you players here crying about it. Hear that? You are crying about it, not me. I’m happy with it. I’m loving it. Cry me some AoE tears please.

Causic.3798:

Improve staff eles 1 vs 1 and necro staffs 1 vs 1 so they will be on par with others as well to make up for it.

It’s not that simple. Staff necroes not only AoE, they are built for condition damage. Building for condition damage means you’re likely to be using scepter for your other weapon, because it applies bleed, and the other weapon choices, Axe and Dagger, are just not viable for a high condition damage build because the only conditions applied either don’t do damage or are on long CD’s. If you rebuild the staff for ST damage, are you going to make all 4 skills ST? 2 of 4? What about the situational skills (chill, condition transfer, etc., regeneration)? Does eliminating some of the 4 Mark skills make the Mark cooldown and greater Mark traits worthless? Will you make these ST skills apply conditions, or not? What will this mean for traits and gear? You can’t just change a few skills and call it a day, not without kittening up some other aspect of peoples’ builds.

If the devs are determined to go through with this, they’d better be extremely careful or they are going to break a lot of builds. In order to do it right, they will pretty much have to rebuild some classes.

I do not understand Anet’s rationale of nerfing AoE. Staff Elementalist skills are mostly AoEs. And they are delays for most of these skills before it goes off and can be easily avoided. I think what Anet needs to do is to buff ST skills.

havoc.6814:

ATMAvatar.5749:

I did read your post. You seem to lack the understanding of how AoE works and what it is intended to do. You lack the understanding of the downsides of AoE in the game as it stands currently, because your arguments entirely depend on the idea that you should be able to stand in AoE and survive. It’s clearly OP because you can’t ignore it.

AoE, as its name implies, is for area denial. If you refuse to leave the area that AoE covers, you need to L2P. It isn’t very difficult.

With that in mind, yes, I expect the warrior to run out of the red circle, swap to a ranged weapon, and attack that way if there are too many area spells in effect on his/her target. That’s the primary purpose of AoE.

So you think that a skill on your bar should give you the right to control where your opponents position themselves. Get real. You don’t get to do that. I don’t need to l2p, because I’m the guy who takes you AOE users down a notch, sometimes even using AoE to do it.

By your logic, does that also mean CC skills such as snares and what not does not give you the right to CC your opponents? That is a rather strange way of looking at it.

The AOE dmg spells are meant to do damage to a wider area and often cause less dmg or takes a while to cast anyway. Controlling where your enemy position themselves is an indirect consequence of it and is just players being creative with their skills.

IndigoSundown.5419:

It’s not that simple. Staff necroes not only AoE, they are built for condition damage. Building for condition damage means you’re likely to be using scepter for your other weapon, because it applies bleed, and the other weapon choices, Axe and Dagger, are just not viable for a high condition damage build because the only conditions applied either don’t do damage or are on long CD’s. If you rebuild the staff for ST damage, are you going to make all 4 skills ST? 2 of 4? What about the situational skills (chill, condition transfer, etc., regeneration)? Does eliminating some of the 4 Mark skills make the Mark cooldown and greater Mark traits worthless? Will you make these ST skills apply conditions, or not? What will this mean for traits and gear? You can’t just change a few skills and call it a day, not without kittening up some other aspect of peoples’ builds.

If the devs are determined to go through with this, they’d better be extremely careful or they are going to break a lot of builds. In order to do it right, they will pretty much have to rebuild some classes.

This!!! Well said!! I am a pure condition damage build (1497 at full strength, not including slot skills and minion-applied conditions, if I use them)…which makes me a very powerful support player but useless on the front-line since I go down way too easily and I’m OK with that. I stand back and make zergs VERY easy for heavier hitters to take down….bleeding, weakness, cripple, poison, fear… This is what my build is made for. Now, the primary means of delivering condition damage, for me, is Staff/Scepter/Dagger. 6 out of 10 weapon attacks are marks. Any nerf to AOE is potentially devastating.

havoc.6814
How is it a “crutch” when more than 1/2 of the attacks are AOE marks, it is a central part of a condition damage build. That’s like saying a warrior is using a sword as crutch since he should be using his hands. It’s ridiculous. If you’re cake-walking through AOE users I would argue most of those don’t know how to use their class effectively….unfortunately a common issue with casters in any game. Nerfing AOE to force people to stop using it is NOT a solution, potentially breaks entire classes/weapons, is not fair to those of us who use it properly and, well, just plain counter-intuitive. Perhaps you cake-walking through them is more of an indication that AOE should be buffed, since you’re saying they’re not strong enough. What you’re really implying is that caster classes using AOE are inferior…to you, again, this is more an argument to buff the classes rather than nerf them.

Is anyone else having a problem with statements that are essentially saying, “Nerf AoE so melee can stand in it, I need more of a challenge.”?

IndigoSundown.5419:

Is anyone else having a problem with statements that are essentially saying, “Nerf AoE so melee can stand in it, I need more of a challenge.”?

I’m going to assume you are talking about havoc. Yes, I have a problem with it.

Havoc, you should really stop talking. You are making things SO much worse for yourself. If you stare at someone (no matter what class) and you don’t think about your positioning related to his skills, then you REALLY REALLY REALLY need to L2P. You sound like you want to just ignore all AoE casters because someone beat you up. If you don’t want to let their AoEs decide where you stand then use that brain of yours and think of a strategy, or you can wait until all of the deadly ones (not really any of those anyways) are on cooldown and use your thief (I assume you play a thief because you complain like this AoE sorta effects you who has been used to sneaking up and getting free kills for a while on an easy build against bad players) to kill them… OR you can get some ranged!!!!!!!!!! If you go full melee in WvWvW then you should assume you are going to be less useful. That will NEVER change so long as their is a single viable damage build for range on any class.

Despite seeing valid arguments from both sides, and having a hard time siding with any particular one view in this thread, I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s not AoE that is the problem, but a lack of AoE balance between all classes that is.

If everyone had the same AoE an ele did (or even close), I think it would be a different story. But that’s sorta kinda the point of the Ele class anyways (to be an AoE heavy caster), so hear me out before you bite my head off.

AoE-wise comparison only:
Compare Ranger Longbow to Warrior Longbow…. warrior is a better ranger hands down.. ground targeted AoEs, a good burst skill, the warrior just wins there.
Compare Thief Shortbow to Ranger Shortbow…. again the ranger loses in terms of sheer AoE.

Okay enough hating on rangers….
Compare Thief dagger versus Warrior GS/sword/hammer/whatever…. warrior cleave AoE (even though it’s melee it still effects an area) wins, no contest there. Why do you think we have 4 warrior 1 mesmer groups for dungeons? Have you seen a 4 thief 1 mesmer group? It was likely unintentionally organized if you did :P I’m not saying the thief needs a buff, just comparing AoE’s here for perspective.

These are just a few small examples of what is really the big picture, but you all play the game, and you all know as well as I do some AoEs are better than others. I think all classes should have the ability to have at least some decent AoE. I main a Ranger, Thief, and Warrior, and so far the only class from those 3 that I think needs balancing for AoE is the Ranger. You are forced into a trap build for AoE (if you don’t use an axe/torch, which is sub-par for most things anyways compared to shortbow), which is against how this game is said to be designed. There isn’t much freedom in choices there.

So, I read the official posts, and I agree with what they are saying. They need to rebalance things among every class to open up more weapon choices. Hopefully they don’t make things worse in the process, though.

moose.6973:

These are just a few small examples of what is really the big picture, but you all play the game, and you all know as well as I do some AoEs are better than others. I think all classes should have the ability to have at least some decent AoE. I main a Ranger, Thief, and Warrior, and so far the only class from those 3 that I think needs balancing for AoE is the Ranger. You are forced into a trap build for AoE (if you don’t use an axe/torch, which is sub-par for most things anyways compared to shortbow), which is against how this game is said to be designed. There isn’t much freedom in choices there.

So, I read the official posts, and I agree with what they are saying. They need to rebalance things among every class to open up more weapon choices. Hopefully they don’t make things worse in the process, though.

While I agree some classes need balancing, mostly I consider AOE generally to be underpowered, it sounds as if you’re going on the assumption that every class should be able to go toe to toe and withstand front line battle. This isn’t the case. In general, most casters in most games I’ve played, even buffed with toughness are too squishy for the front line type battle and pose more of a liability than anything. GW2, does not have the equivalent of a battle-mage. Most casters, especially heavy AOE users such as necromancers and elementalists are much more powerful, and useful, staying behind the front line and helping the more heavy hitters by slow down and weakening the zerg. I selected the necromancer, knowing full well it would never be a front-line player.

moose.6973:

Despite seeing valid arguments from both sides, and having a hard time siding with any particular one view in this thread, I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s not AoE that is the problem, but a lack of AoE balance between all classes that is.

If everyone had the same AoE an ele did (or even close), I think it would be a different story. But that’s sorta kinda the point of the Ele class anyways (to be an AoE heavy caster), so hear me out before you bite my head off.

AoE-wise comparison only:
Compare Ranger Longbow to Warrior Longbow…. warrior is a better ranger hands down.. ground targeted AoEs, a good burst skill, the warrior just wins there.
Compare Thief Shortbow to Ranger Shortbow…. again the ranger loses in terms of sheer AoE.

Okay enough hating on rangers….
Compare Thief dagger versus Warrior GS/sword/hammer/whatever…. warrior cleave AoE (even though it’s melee it still effects an area) wins, no contest there. Why do you think we have 4 warrior 1 mesmer groups for dungeons? Have you seen a 4 thief 1 mesmer group? It was likely unintentionally organized if you did :P I’m not saying the thief needs a buff, just comparing AoE’s here for perspective.

These are just a few small examples of what is really the big picture, but you all play the game, and you all know as well as I do some AoEs are better than others. I think all classes should have the ability to have at least some decent AoE. I main a Ranger, Thief, and Warrior, and so far the only class from those 3 that I think needs balancing for AoE is the Ranger. You are forced into a trap build for AoE (if you don’t use an axe/torch, which is sub-par for most things anyways compared to shortbow), which is against how this game is said to be designed. There isn’t much freedom in choices there.

So, I read the official posts, and I agree with what they are saying. They need to rebalance things among every class to open up more weapon choices. Hopefully they don’t make things worse in the process, though.

So, rangers can do AoE with traps, and via Barrage on LB. To do so effectively, they have to build for condition damage. This is no different from a Necro, whose Marks are also condition based. The difference, if there is one, is that ranger traps are utilities, which means sacrificing other skills to use them, but leaving plenty of ST options. The Necro’s marks in general do not do quite as much damage as traps, and staff necro’s only ST skill is the auto attack, which does crap for damage and is so slow it is easily avoided just by the target moving.

The current meta has different classes being good at different things. Balancing AoE across all classes would mean the devs would need to balance ST across all classes, or they would be breaking the AoE classes. This would involve a major rework, including skills and traits.

DaedalusDragon.3754:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Is anyone else having a problem with statements that are essentially saying, “Nerf AoE so melee can stand in it, I need more of a challenge.”?

I’m going to assume you are talking about havoc. Yes, I have a problem with it.

Havoc, you should really stop talking. You are making things SO much worse for yourself. If you stare at someone (no matter what class) and you don’t think about your positioning related to his skills, then you REALLY REALLY REALLY need to L2P. You sound like you want to just ignore all AoE casters because someone beat you up. If you don’t want to let their AoEs decide where you stand then use that brain of yours and think of a strategy, or you can wait until all of the deadly ones (not really any of those anyways) are on cooldown and use your thief (I assume you play a thief because you complain like this AoE sorta effects you who has been used to sneaking up and getting free kills for a while on an easy build against bad players) to kill them… OR you can get some ranged!!!!!!!!!! If you go full melee in WvWvW then you should assume you are going to be less useful. That will NEVER change so long as their is a single viable damage build for range on any class.

Maybe you should read all of my posts and not assume that I am just rolling a warrior. Lol, just keep crying though, AoE nerf coming anyways.

Causic.3798:

I completely agree with this, AoE is a crutch that requires no skill.
AoE-ing a door just aiming at the floor requires no skill. They don’t have to decide who to targer and how to CC them to keep them from coming it. Attacking the door already does that.
Improve staff eles 1 vs 1 and necro staffs 1 vs 1 so they will be on par with others as well to make up for it.

Zerging a door in large numbers requires no skill.

AOE does severe damage to people acting exactly like a herd of lemmings, and who can’t be bothered to use dodge roll when they see the GIGANTIC RED CIRCLE on the ground..

The rest of you, stop feeding the troll.

havoc.6814:

Maybe you should read all of my posts and not assume that I am just rolling a warrior. Lol, just keep crying though, AoE nerf coming anyways.

The only one crying is you man…coming up with ridiculous reasons to nerf AOE…nerf it because AOE users are too easy to take down…really? How does this even make sense? If anything that’s a reason to buff AOE. If you think that only melee users should be allowed in WvW/PvP, then just say that. Why not just make everyone run WvW naked as the same race with no weapons and no magic…then EVERYONE will be on a level playing field and it will be completely skill at that point. I’m sure you’d still find a reason to whine.

In any case, if they break AOE and necromancers by extension, at least what I consider broken, I’ll be done with this game. I will be paying close attention and know exactly what my stats are. Being affected by what seems to be perpetual diminishing returns (After nearly 3 months, quite insultingly being described by Colin Johanson himself as an “X-files level conspiracy”), I’m already pretty fed up with the game. My drops are so bad, that I could not feasibly level an alt without using the gem store, so if they break my necro, and necros already have several known issues/bugs, I’ll not give them another penny and I’ll be done.