Guild Wars 2

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

^^

Nappyychappy hit the nail on the head, IMO.

The definition of “casual player” doesn’t lend itself to the kind of dedication and “stickiness” you need to make a game like an MMO live for a long time.

Based on what evidence. It’s funny because I could actually make an argument for the opposite. I’m old enough where I don’t really want to bounce back and forth between multiple games. I’d rather go further in a single game.

The older you are, the less you tend to “bounce around”. That’s a young person’s game. It’s an attention span thing too.

The younger generation grew up with youtube and the internet, but the older generation really hasn’t. It’s the younger generation that tends to game hop. I’m quite happy to buy one game and stick with it, because I don’t want to keep going out and buying more games. And this would be even more true of people who have less time to play. They’d play a game, get a tiny tiny bit done weekly and not run out of content. It’s not the older, more mature people who run out of content, I’m guessing. It’s the content locusts. The people who tend to be younger, and not have a family.

We have a wide range of people in my guild, from 17 up until people in their sixities. The people who are older don’t play MUCH fewer games and stay with the longer on the whole than the people in their teens and early twenties. So if the average age of a gamer now is over 30 (which apparently it is according to studies), there’s less reason for many of these people to run out and continually buy new games.

There’ll be exceptions of course, but I think older people will stay with something they like longer, on the whole and they’ll have a longer attention span.

Oh yea, there are so many “older” people playing video games. Keep in mind I’m in my thirties, so when you talk about the people that didn’t grow up with the internet, it is over the age of 40.

Everyone I know that is 50 and over think video games are for little kids.

So, if you think that your generation is some great target for video games, especially something as complex as MMO’s, compared to say, Wii bowling, then go ahead and think that is some untapped gold mine. I’ll be over here laughing.

But, the only thing you keep saying is that my opinion is wrong and your opinion is right. Guess what, they are both opinions. You don’t like mine, and I don’t like yours. Neither is right or wrong until we find out. Which, by the way, I would think the population of this game after Xmas 2013 is a good indicator of how well this game is doing, but again, that is just my opinion.

Complex and Guild Wars 2 don’t belong in the same sentence. If a 6 year old can figure out basic combat, I’m sure that 50 year old wii bowling person can. You know they have tournaments in wii bowling for people 50-80+ years old? We have a 50 something year old in our guild, they play regularly. This game appeals to many types, hence why it is doing so well. And I still know military veterans who I served with in iraq who are in their late 40’s and 50’s who play several video games, some of which are MMO’s and not just FPS games. This whole blanketing everyone with the hardcore/casual term is getting old, as is the assumption of who likes the game and who doesn’t.

clay.7849:

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

It may, but it may not. Your point? Casual = limited interest. How can you argue that leads to more money? Oh, that’s right, you can’t.

You are having a tantrum aren’t you? Sorry. We should end the conversation before you get more upset.

By the way, the real money in gaming is now in casual games and cash shops. Its not for nothing failed mmos go free to play. But hey, if you want to believe otherwise its your right.

Proof? Links?

EVE seems to be doing quite well…

Eve is doing well, but last I checked, they didn’t have half a million subscribers. I’m guessing at least that number of people are playing Guild Wars 2 right, not daily but over all. And yes, it’s just a guess.

But if a couple of months ago they hit the 3 million market, and 2/3s of those people have stopped playing, you have a million people left. And more people do come to the game all the time, because we’re constantly getting new players in the guild.

A game can exist quite happily on half a million players or even less, and still make a profit. If Guild Wars 2 keeps getting better (and to many of us it is), then it’ll be here for a long time to come.

clay.7849:

Geotherma.2395:

clay.7849:

Xia.3485:

Geotherma.2395:

I can agree with the thought of games such as FFXI in mind. This is a game I used to love, it got a bit old however (for me) and I moved on. However it still holds many subs and just released yet another expansion. (8? 11?) Free to play games like Aion also hold both players who play often or don’t play often, both of which flood the cash store for “fun” things. However that game also offers advantages which by most peoples definition would be for hardcore gamers. But casual gamers use them as well. And that game is still around as well.

With Guild Wars 2 you buy and get what you pay for. You can at any time try other MMO’s, be 100% loyal to this, or leave and come back any time. Any type of player can put money into the pockets of the company. It matters more how cash shop items are sold, what is available, and the want and desire for them. And that applies to no single group. That applies to us all. I would simply say look at the fused weapon skins, to say only casual or hardcore players bought those chests based on their gameplay/style would just be silly.

Totally agree. In fact, you helped make my point. Also I’d like to point out it wasn’t I who brought the term hardcore or casual into conversation.

I think the best virtue of guild wars 2 is the ability to leave for a few months and return without having to grind to “catch up” to other players. The lack of effective gear treadmill is liberating. Even though some can argue that ascended gear began a treadmill none of the content appears balanced around gear (except for agony resistance, which is acquired where its used anyway).

I believe that if Arena Net wasn’t doing well financially, we’d see more gear and skins in the cash shop with talk of an expansion. Instead we are greeted with free content (the living story) and fun holiday events (Halloween, Christina and now this April Fools day game).

I don’t believe GW2 needs any of this:

… most hardcore gamers find this game to not include enough of what they want (gear treadmill, mounts, open world PvP, raids, etc.) Therefore, as more games become available that fill their desired niche they will leave.

Nor does it need the term hardcore pasted all over its forums.

Why did you edit my post to exclude “no gear treadmill?”

You are mis-representing my post. I don’t think that GW2 needs those things either, but GW2 doesn’t think that. They have said specifically that they don’t intent Ascended Gear to be the end of the gear treadmill. They said that they don’t intent level 80 to be the max level forever.

The purpose of the post was to show that ANet tries to give a little to everyone on both sides of the aisle, which doesn’t really appease anyone as most people are firmly on one side or the other. Ascended gear pretty much kitten off everyone.

Thanks for taking the time to not only purposefully exclude parts from my post, but to misrepresent it as well.

I disagree with this part bolded. There is really no proof of this, and people are generally believed to be open to change and change in behavior or moods. Which means anyone at any time can sway to either side. If anything I would say more people are swaying in the middle slightly to either side depending on the games content and theme. But thats an opinion, just like the above stated is. And as is true with that statement and mine, neither can be proven at this point.

You may be right, but looking around the forums, it seems that if you ask about gear treadmill you will get some pretty opinionated responses. Same with open world PvP, mounts, raiding, etc.

I agree people can change their minds, but it looks like our friend Xia is firmly opposed to some of those things. I wonder if he can change his mind?

You do get opinionated responses, but that doesn’t prove anything since it’s the people who don’t respond you need to count there. The people who are arguing about it are obviously very strong in their views. But how many people just don’t care or think about it even. I’d wager most.

Most people don’t think deeply about their gaming experience, nor do they post on forums. I’d wager there are more people playing Guild Wars 2 right now who have never heard the term vertical progression than those who have.

Geotherma.2395:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

^^

Nappyychappy hit the nail on the head, IMO.

The definition of “casual player” doesn’t lend itself to the kind of dedication and “stickiness” you need to make a game like an MMO live for a long time.

Based on what evidence. It’s funny because I could actually make an argument for the opposite. I’m old enough where I don’t really want to bounce back and forth between multiple games. I’d rather go further in a single game.

The older you are, the less you tend to “bounce around”. That’s a young person’s game. It’s an attention span thing too.

The younger generation grew up with youtube and the internet, but the older generation really hasn’t. It’s the younger generation that tends to game hop. I’m quite happy to buy one game and stick with it, because I don’t want to keep going out and buying more games. And this would be even more true of people who have less time to play. They’d play a game, get a tiny tiny bit done weekly and not run out of content. It’s not the older, more mature people who run out of content, I’m guessing. It’s the content locusts. The people who tend to be younger, and not have a family.

We have a wide range of people in my guild, from 17 up until people in their sixities. The people who are older don’t play MUCH fewer games and stay with the longer on the whole than the people in their teens and early twenties. So if the average age of a gamer now is over 30 (which apparently it is according to studies), there’s less reason for many of these people to run out and continually buy new games.

There’ll be exceptions of course, but I think older people will stay with something they like longer, on the whole and they’ll have a longer attention span.

Oh yea, there are so many “older” people playing video games. Keep in mind I’m in my thirties, so when you talk about the people that didn’t grow up with the internet, it is over the age of 40.

Everyone I know that is 50 and over think video games are for little kids.

So, if you think that your generation is some great target for video games, especially something as complex as MMO’s, compared to say, Wii bowling, then go ahead and think that is some untapped gold mine. I’ll be over here laughing.

But, the only thing you keep saying is that my opinion is wrong and your opinion is right. Guess what, they are both opinions. You don’t like mine, and I don’t like yours. Neither is right or wrong until we find out. Which, by the way, I would think the population of this game after Xmas 2013 is a good indicator of how well this game is doing, but again, that is just my opinion.

Complex and Guild Wars 2 don’t belong in the same sentence. If a 6 year old can figure out basic combat, I’m sure that 50 year old wii bowling person can. You know they have tournaments in wii bowling for people 50-80+ years old? We have a 50 something year old in our guild, they play regularly. This game appeals to many types, hence why it is doing so well. And I still know military veterans who I served with in iraq who are in their late 40’s and 50’s who play several video games, some of which are MMO’s and not just FPS games. This whole blanketing everyone with the hardcore/casual term is getting old, as is the assumption of who likes the game and who doesn’t.

So, the level of complexity between Wii bowling and GW2 is the same? kitten, get me a 50 year old that has never played the game before and have them make an omnomberry bar. That should keep them busy for a few hours. You can’t honestly think that MMO’s are as easy to play as Wii bowling.

29% of people 50 years and older play video games. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game)

Less than 5% of people playing MMO’s in this study were over 50 years old. (http://petsymposium.org/2011/papers/hotpets11-final7Likarish.pdf)

Yea, so, there aren’t a lot of 50 year olds playing MMO’s. It may increase, but I doubt it will increase much to make much of a difference.

You seem to dislike the idea of demographics at all – which is pretty much defining what kind of people like stuff. In this case, MMORPG style video games.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

It may, but it may not. Your point? Casual = limited interest. How can you argue that leads to more money? Oh, that’s right, you can’t.

You are having a tantrum aren’t you? Sorry. We should end the conversation before you get more upset.

By the way, the real money in gaming is now in casual games and cash shops. Its not for nothing failed mmos go free to play. But hey, if you want to believe otherwise its your right.

Proof? Links?

EVE seems to be doing quite well…

Eve is doing well, but last I checked, they didn’t have half a million subscribers. I’m guessing at least that number of people are playing Guild Wars 2 right, not daily but over all. And yes, it’s just a guess.

But if a couple of months ago they hit the 3 million market, and 2/3s of those people have stopped playing, you have a million people left. And more people do come to the game all the time, because we’re constantly getting new players in the guild.

A game can exist quite happily on half a million players or even less, and still make a profit. If Guild Wars 2 keeps getting better (and to many of us it is), then it’ll be here for a long time to come.

Wow, guesses and conjecture, but no real proof.

I would be willing to bet much less than 2 million people still play GW2.

EVE has ~500,000 subscribers currently.

I wonder if a F2P game can exist on just a half million players and continue to get support from NCSoft. I mean, they are looking to “reshuffle” everything. Or did you not hear that they are doing quite poorly and have pulled the plug on some games?

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Geotherma.2395:

clay.7849:

Xia.3485:

Geotherma.2395:

I can agree with the thought of games such as FFXI in mind. This is a game I used to love, it got a bit old however (for me) and I moved on. However it still holds many subs and just released yet another expansion. (8? 11?) Free to play games like Aion also hold both players who play often or don’t play often, both of which flood the cash store for “fun” things. However that game also offers advantages which by most peoples definition would be for hardcore gamers. But casual gamers use them as well. And that game is still around as well.

With Guild Wars 2 you buy and get what you pay for. You can at any time try other MMO’s, be 100% loyal to this, or leave and come back any time. Any type of player can put money into the pockets of the company. It matters more how cash shop items are sold, what is available, and the want and desire for them. And that applies to no single group. That applies to us all. I would simply say look at the fused weapon skins, to say only casual or hardcore players bought those chests based on their gameplay/style would just be silly.

Totally agree. In fact, you helped make my point. Also I’d like to point out it wasn’t I who brought the term hardcore or casual into conversation.

I think the best virtue of guild wars 2 is the ability to leave for a few months and return without having to grind to “catch up” to other players. The lack of effective gear treadmill is liberating. Even though some can argue that ascended gear began a treadmill none of the content appears balanced around gear (except for agony resistance, which is acquired where its used anyway).

I believe that if Arena Net wasn’t doing well financially, we’d see more gear and skins in the cash shop with talk of an expansion. Instead we are greeted with free content (the living story) and fun holiday events (Halloween, Christina and now this April Fools day game).

I don’t believe GW2 needs any of this:

… most hardcore gamers find this game to not include enough of what they want (gear treadmill, mounts, open world PvP, raids, etc.) Therefore, as more games become available that fill their desired niche they will leave.

Nor does it need the term hardcore pasted all over its forums.

Why did you edit my post to exclude “no gear treadmill?”

You are mis-representing my post. I don’t think that GW2 needs those things either, but GW2 doesn’t think that. They have said specifically that they don’t intent Ascended Gear to be the end of the gear treadmill. They said that they don’t intent level 80 to be the max level forever.

The purpose of the post was to show that ANet tries to give a little to everyone on both sides of the aisle, which doesn’t really appease anyone as most people are firmly on one side or the other. Ascended gear pretty much kitten off everyone.

Thanks for taking the time to not only purposefully exclude parts from my post, but to misrepresent it as well.

I disagree with this part bolded. There is really no proof of this, and people are generally believed to be open to change and change in behavior or moods. Which means anyone at any time can sway to either side. If anything I would say more people are swaying in the middle slightly to either side depending on the games content and theme. But thats an opinion, just like the above stated is. And as is true with that statement and mine, neither can be proven at this point.

You may be right, but looking around the forums, it seems that if you ask about gear treadmill you will get some pretty opinionated responses. Same with open world PvP, mounts, raiding, etc.

I agree people can change their minds, but it looks like our friend Xia is firmly opposed to some of those things. I wonder if he can change his mind?

You do get opinionated responses, but that doesn’t prove anything since it’s the people who don’t respond you need to count there. The people who are arguing about it are obviously very strong in their views. But how many people just don’t care or think about it even. I’d wager most.

Most people don’t think deeply about their gaming experience, nor do they post on forums. I’d wager there are more people playing Guild Wars 2 right now who have never heard the term vertical progression than those who have.

Again, you are making statements without any factual proof.

At least I can point to the forums for information. You just have the thoughts in your head which is slightly skewed by your fanboyism.

clay.7849:

Geotherma.2395:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

^^

Nappyychappy hit the nail on the head, IMO.

The definition of “casual player” doesn’t lend itself to the kind of dedication and “stickiness” you need to make a game like an MMO live for a long time.

Based on what evidence. It’s funny because I could actually make an argument for the opposite. I’m old enough where I don’t really want to bounce back and forth between multiple games. I’d rather go further in a single game.

The older you are, the less you tend to “bounce around”. That’s a young person’s game. It’s an attention span thing too.

The younger generation grew up with youtube and the internet, but the older generation really hasn’t. It’s the younger generation that tends to game hop. I’m quite happy to buy one game and stick with it, because I don’t want to keep going out and buying more games. And this would be even more true of people who have less time to play. They’d play a game, get a tiny tiny bit done weekly and not run out of content. It’s not the older, more mature people who run out of content, I’m guessing. It’s the content locusts. The people who tend to be younger, and not have a family.

We have a wide range of people in my guild, from 17 up until people in their sixities. The people who are older don’t play MUCH fewer games and stay with the longer on the whole than the people in their teens and early twenties. So if the average age of a gamer now is over 30 (which apparently it is according to studies), there’s less reason for many of these people to run out and continually buy new games.

There’ll be exceptions of course, but I think older people will stay with something they like longer, on the whole and they’ll have a longer attention span.

Oh yea, there are so many “older” people playing video games. Keep in mind I’m in my thirties, so when you talk about the people that didn’t grow up with the internet, it is over the age of 40.

Everyone I know that is 50 and over think video games are for little kids.

So, if you think that your generation is some great target for video games, especially something as complex as MMO’s, compared to say, Wii bowling, then go ahead and think that is some untapped gold mine. I’ll be over here laughing.

But, the only thing you keep saying is that my opinion is wrong and your opinion is right. Guess what, they are both opinions. You don’t like mine, and I don’t like yours. Neither is right or wrong until we find out. Which, by the way, I would think the population of this game after Xmas 2013 is a good indicator of how well this game is doing, but again, that is just my opinion.

Complex and Guild Wars 2 don’t belong in the same sentence. If a 6 year old can figure out basic combat, I’m sure that 50 year old wii bowling person can. You know they have tournaments in wii bowling for people 50-80+ years old? We have a 50 something year old in our guild, they play regularly. This game appeals to many types, hence why it is doing so well. And I still know military veterans who I served with in iraq who are in their late 40’s and 50’s who play several video games, some of which are MMO’s and not just FPS games. This whole blanketing everyone with the hardcore/casual term is getting old, as is the assumption of who likes the game and who doesn’t.

So, the level of complexity between Wii bowling and GW2 is the same? kitten, get me a 50 year old that has never played the game before and have them make an omnomberry bar. That should keep them busy for a few hours. You can’t honestly think that MMO’s are as easy to play as Wii bowling.

29% of people 50 years and older play video games. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game)

Less than 5% of people playing MMO’s in this study were over 50 years old. (http://petsymposium.org/2011/papers/hotpets11-final7Likarish.pdf)

Yea, so, there aren’t a lot of 50 year olds playing MMO’s. It may increase, but I doubt it will increase much to make much of a difference.

You seem to dislike the idea of demographics at all – which is pretty much defining what kind of people like stuff. In this case, MMORPG style video games.

I know a 57 year old Master Sargent who lead convoys and raids using land nav technology and GPS to find targets to destroy and kill in the middle of Baghdad. To say someone can’t do something because of age is appalling to me. You clearly have no idea what people are capable of. At any age.

And the fact you believe everything you see on Wikipedia… really shows a lot about your mentality.

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

I don’t believe the manifesto has been sacrificed, as you put it.

The one overwhelming thing that people say about the manifesto being broken is about vertical progression which is never mentioned in the manifesto at all or even implied by it. The other thing people refer to is the “grind” in the game. The manifesto was clearly talking about killing stuff to level, or not having fun things to do while you were leveling. It was talking about leveling grind.

No one who takes that paragraph in its entirety could possibly think it is referring to gear grind. If people would stop taking the single word grind out of context, then it would be a whole lot harder to say Anet abandoned their manifesto.

And you know, some of us have been around since launch and we don’t feel that Anet has abandoned the manifesto. This is simply your opinion. It’s already been broken down in too many threads to repeat it here, but for every person who says they broke it, another person says they haven’t.

Geotherma.2395:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

^^

Nappyychappy hit the nail on the head, IMO.

The definition of “casual player” doesn’t lend itself to the kind of dedication and “stickiness” you need to make a game like an MMO live for a long time.

Based on what evidence. It’s funny because I could actually make an argument for the opposite. I’m old enough where I don’t really want to bounce back and forth between multiple games. I’d rather go further in a single game.

The older you are, the less you tend to “bounce around”. That’s a young person’s game. It’s an attention span thing too.

The younger generation grew up with youtube and the internet, but the older generation really hasn’t. It’s the younger generation that tends to game hop. I’m quite happy to buy one game and stick with it, because I don’t want to keep going out and buying more games. And this would be even more true of people who have less time to play. They’d play a game, get a tiny tiny bit done weekly and not run out of content. It’s not the older, more mature people who run out of content, I’m guessing. It’s the content locusts. The people who tend to be younger, and not have a family.

We have a wide range of people in my guild, from 17 up until people in their sixities. The people who are older don’t play MUCH fewer games and stay with the longer on the whole than the people in their teens and early twenties. So if the average age of a gamer now is over 30 (which apparently it is according to studies), there’s less reason for many of these people to run out and continually buy new games.

There’ll be exceptions of course, but I think older people will stay with something they like longer, on the whole and they’ll have a longer attention span.

Oh yea, there are so many “older” people playing video games. Keep in mind I’m in my thirties, so when you talk about the people that didn’t grow up with the internet, it is over the age of 40.

Everyone I know that is 50 and over think video games are for little kids.

So, if you think that your generation is some great target for video games, especially something as complex as MMO’s, compared to say, Wii bowling, then go ahead and think that is some untapped gold mine. I’ll be over here laughing.

But, the only thing you keep saying is that my opinion is wrong and your opinion is right. Guess what, they are both opinions. You don’t like mine, and I don’t like yours. Neither is right or wrong until we find out. Which, by the way, I would think the population of this game after Xmas 2013 is a good indicator of how well this game is doing, but again, that is just my opinion.

Complex and Guild Wars 2 don’t belong in the same sentence. If a 6 year old can figure out basic combat, I’m sure that 50 year old wii bowling person can. You know they have tournaments in wii bowling for people 50-80+ years old? We have a 50 something year old in our guild, they play regularly. This game appeals to many types, hence why it is doing so well. And I still know military veterans who I served with in iraq who are in their late 40’s and 50’s who play several video games, some of which are MMO’s and not just FPS games. This whole blanketing everyone with the hardcore/casual term is getting old, as is the assumption of who likes the game and who doesn’t.

We have a nice mix of age in our guild its nice to have so many points of views in the same guild i just love it.

It seems to be doing well for an mmorpgs’ first year. These games take a good year to work out how much they can add and to how different they can make the game if they want to. Look at what they just added in an 8bit game that is fun very fun they can go very far with the base GW2 game and add a great deal more. I can see this game truly getting a great deal bigger in time.

Vayne.8563:

You do get opinionated responses, but that doesn’t prove anything since it’s the people who don’t respond you need to count there. The people who are arguing about it are obviously very strong in their views. But how many people just don’t care or think about it even. I’d wager most.

Most people don’t think deeply about their gaming experience, nor do they post on forums. I’d wager there are more people playing Guild Wars 2 right now who have never heard the term vertical progression than those who have.

Quite true.

The vast majority of MMO players don’t wade through the forums. Its always a very vocal community, or those who want to argue for arguing sake (and some being overtly rude and condescending while doing it) that frequent the forums. I doubt very much they represent “the community”.

In fact, it was always a minority of mmo players that would actually do any “end game content” like raids. Ask Blizzard, their internal data proved it and birthed the raid finder system (and the massive raid nerf to make them accessible).

As such, the tone or impressions you get from an MMO forum hardly qualify as “proof” of its success. Heck, its not even a valid metric.

On a side note, I’m surprised you’re all here arguing with him. People only understand or listen when they want to listen.

Xia.3485:

Vayne.8563:

You do get opinionated responses, but that doesn’t prove anything since it’s the people who don’t respond you need to count there. The people who are arguing about it are obviously very strong in their views. But how many people just don’t care or think about it even. I’d wager most.

Most people don’t think deeply about their gaming experience, nor do they post on forums. I’d wager there are more people playing Guild Wars 2 right now who have never heard the term vertical progression than those who have.

Quite true.

The vast majority of MMO players don’t wade through the forums. Its always a very vocal community, or those who want to argue for arguing sake (and some being overtly rude and condescending while doing it) that frequent the forums. I doubt very much they represent “the community”.

In fact, it was always a minority of mmo players that would actually do any “end game content” like raids. Ask Blizzard, their internal data proved it and birthed the raid finder system (and the massive raid nerf to make them accessible).

As such, the tone or impressions you get from an MMO forum hardly qualify as “proof” of its success. Heck, its not even a valid metric.

On a side note, I’m surprised you’re all here arguing with him. People only understand or listen when they want to listen.

Proof? It’s funny how the majority of people on a forum about a game don’t represent the majority. That is so logical.

I think it is so funny that you think you are so high and mighty and smart as to think that what you are saying is the honest to goodness truth, and that there is no way that this game has any chance of being like every other MMO that has failed.

Seriously, what makes this game so much different? It is the same thing as all the rest.

At least GW1 was different…

clay.7849:

Proof? It’s funny how the majority of people on a forum about a game don’t represent the majority. That is so logical.

Only if you believe that everyone who is playing is also posting; which is ludicrous at best.

Was.. that your belief?

As long they are making money, i guess is doing fine, they really milk the cash shop like a f2p but added a 60 box first.

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

Proof? It’s funny how the majority of people on a forum about a game don’t represent the majority. That is so logical.

Only if you believe that everyone who is playing is also posting; which is ludicrous at best.

Was.. that your belief?

I think everyone that is posting cares enough about what happened to this game to care enough to post on this forum – and that they bought and experienced the game.

I’m sorry, but is it ludicrous to think that someone who purchased the game and quit’s opinion is less valid than someone who is still playing? If anything, as a business owner, I would want to know why someone quit.

I would be willing to bet that your position in the world doesn’t make you think about things that way. Unfortunately, when you get higher up in the ranks of corporate America, you find out that is one of the questions everyone is asking.

clay.7849:

I think everyone that is posting cares enough about what happened to this game to care enough to post on this forum – and that they bought and experienced the game.

But they are not the majority nor can they speak for it. That’s why a game’s forum isn’t a proper metric for its success. (However if I follow your logic, WoW would have failed during burning crusade.)

clay.7849:

I’m sorry, but is it ludicrous to think that someone who purchased the game and quit’s opinion is less valid than someone who is still playing? If anything, as a business owner, I would want to know why someone quit.

You are saying this, not me. Its easier putting words in people’s mouths isn’t it?

clay.7849:

I would be willing to bet that your position in the world doesn’t make you think about things that way. Unfortunately, when you get higher up in the ranks of corporate America, you find out that is one of the questions everyone is asking.

Trust me, I don’t use my employee’s Facebook posts as a metric for their job performance.

You use a lot of words. Perhaps thinking before posting is in order?

clay.7849:

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

Proof? It’s funny how the majority of people on a forum about a game don’t represent the majority. That is so logical.

Only if you believe that everyone who is playing is also posting; which is ludicrous at best.

Was.. that your belief?

I think everyone that is posting cares enough about what happened to this game to care enough to post on this forum – and that they bought and experienced the game.

I’m sorry, but is it ludicrous to think that someone who purchased the game and quit’s opinion is less valid than someone who is still playing? If anything, as a business owner, I would want to know why someone quit.

I would be willing to bet that your position in the world doesn’t make you think about things that way. Unfortunately, when you get higher up in the ranks of corporate America, you find out that is one of the questions everyone is asking.

This may be true, but the biggest percentage of the people who join a forum never post to it and this is documented by easily researched numbers. I used to moderate a Guild Wars 2 fan forum, and the numbers were a matter of public record, because the forum displayed those numbers. And this is true of countless forums across the internet. You should do some research before you claim people are making stuff up. I seldom make things up, but I don’t always quote statistics for stuff that’s pretty much common knowledge.

I’ve also moderated Yahoo groups, quite a few of them. In general, around 15% of any forum or online group posts, and 85% lurk. So at last 85% of the people lurking may or may not have strong opinions.

There are many polls from many sources over the years about how many people actually visit game forums. It’s not as much as you think.

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

I think everyone that is posting cares enough about what happened to this game to care enough to post on this forum – and that they bought and experienced the game.

But they are not the majority nor can they speak for it. That’s why a game’s forum isn’t a proper metric for its success. (However if I follow your logic, WoW would have failed during burning crusade.)

clay.7849:

I’m sorry, but is it ludicrous to think that someone who purchased the game and quit’s opinion is less valid than someone who is still playing? If anything, as a business owner, I would want to know why someone quit.

You are saying this, not me. Its easier putting words in people’s mouths isn’t it?

clay.7849:

I would be willing to bet that your position in the world doesn’t make you think about things that way. Unfortunately, when you get higher up in the ranks of corporate America, you find out that is one of the questions everyone is asking.

Trust me, I don’t use my employee’s Facebook posts as a metric for their job performance.

You use a lot of words. Perhaps thinking before posting is in order?

Lol, perhaps reading a post is in order? When did I say anything about employees? Clearly, you don’t feel that understanding why people stop playing the game is important. I believe that speaks for itself as to why you don’t really have a good grip on anything to do with business or marketing.

I am actually the marketing director for multiple divisions of a company, so I think I know a little bit about these things…

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

Proof? It’s funny how the majority of people on a forum about a game don’t represent the majority. That is so logical.

Only if you believe that everyone who is playing is also posting; which is ludicrous at best.

Was.. that your belief?

I think everyone that is posting cares enough about what happened to this game to care enough to post on this forum – and that they bought and experienced the game.

I’m sorry, but is it ludicrous to think that someone who purchased the game and quit’s opinion is less valid than someone who is still playing? If anything, as a business owner, I would want to know why someone quit.

I would be willing to bet that your position in the world doesn’t make you think about things that way. Unfortunately, when you get higher up in the ranks of corporate America, you find out that is one of the questions everyone is asking.

This may be true, but the biggest percentage of the people who join a forum never post to it and this is documented by easily researched numbers. I used to moderate a Guild Wars 2 fan forum, and the numbers were a matter of public record, because the forum displayed those numbers. And this is true of countless forums across the internet. You should do some research before you claim people are making stuff up. I seldom make things up, but I don’t always quote statistics for stuff that’s pretty much common knowledge.

I’ve also moderated Yahoo groups, quite a few of them. In general, around 15% of any forum or online group posts, and 85% lurk. So at last 85% of the people lurking may or may not have strong opinions.

There are many polls from many sources over the years about how many people actually visit game forums. It’s not as much as you think.

So, you’re saying that the people that do visit forums are not a sufficient enough random sample to draw any conclusions from?

Or, do you believe that companies like JD Power are bogus because they don’t ask everyone their opinion?

clay.7849:

When did I say anything about employees? Clearly, you don’t feel that understanding by people stop playing the game is important. I believe that speaks for itself as to why you don’t really have a good grip on anything to do with business or marketing.

Here again you’re putting words in my mouth. I said the forums aren’t a good metric for the game’s success. I never said it wasn’t a source of useful information for a developer. I guess its easier for you to argue when you twist everything you read.

clay.7849:

I am actually the marketing director for multiple divisions of a company, so I think I know a little bit about these things…

Sure you are. Sure. lol

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

When did I say anything about employees? Clearly, you don’t feel that understanding by people stop playing the game is important. I believe that speaks for itself as to why you don’t really have a good grip on anything to do with business or marketing.

Here again you’re putting words in my mouth. I said the forums aren’t a good metric for the game’s success. I never said it wasn’t a source of useful information for a developer. I guess its easier for you to argue when you twist everything you read.

clay.7849:

I am actually the marketing director for multiple divisions of a company, so I think I know a little bit about these things…

Sure you are. Sure. lol

You don’t have to believe me.

But, anyways, you agree that forums are a good way to gather useful information about a game, but if the majority of forums are negative, that doesn’t reflect on the success of the game?

Fascinating. Please tell me how that logic works again…

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

Proof? It’s funny how the majority of people on a forum about a game don’t represent the majority. That is so logical.

Only if you believe that everyone who is playing is also posting; which is ludicrous at best.

Was.. that your belief?

How do you know that the people posting in the forums is not a small snapshot of the larger community? Sounds like you have insight to the numbers…..please share.

Without factual data, opinions such as these are like Schrödinger’s cat, and you can’t know the answer until the box is opened.

…..and Clay……you’re waisting your breath my friend. He’s not gonna get it.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

Proof? It’s funny how the majority of people on a forum about a game don’t represent the majority. That is so logical.

Only if you believe that everyone who is playing is also posting; which is ludicrous at best.

Was.. that your belief?

I think everyone that is posting cares enough about what happened to this game to care enough to post on this forum – and that they bought and experienced the game.

I’m sorry, but is it ludicrous to think that someone who purchased the game and quit’s opinion is less valid than someone who is still playing? If anything, as a business owner, I would want to know why someone quit.

I would be willing to bet that your position in the world doesn’t make you think about things that way. Unfortunately, when you get higher up in the ranks of corporate America, you find out that is one of the questions everyone is asking.

This may be true, but the biggest percentage of the people who join a forum never post to it and this is documented by easily researched numbers. I used to moderate a Guild Wars 2 fan forum, and the numbers were a matter of public record, because the forum displayed those numbers. And this is true of countless forums across the internet. You should do some research before you claim people are making stuff up. I seldom make things up, but I don’t always quote statistics for stuff that’s pretty much common knowledge.

I’ve also moderated Yahoo groups, quite a few of them. In general, around 15% of any forum or online group posts, and 85% lurk. So at last 85% of the people lurking may or may not have strong opinions.

There are many polls from many sources over the years about how many people actually visit game forums. It’s not as much as you think.

So, you’re saying that the people that do visit forums are not a sufficient enough random sample to draw any conclusions from?

Or, do you believe that companies like JD Power are bogus because they don’t ask everyone their opinion?

I’m saying that the people who post have the strongest opinions and if other people had very strong opinions, they might well post more. I’m saying that a very small percentage of people really have strong opinions about gaming. Given that a lot of people are, as stated before, casual gamers, they tend to think a lot less about gaming.

I can’t tell you how many times a week I end up having to explain the term vertical progression to Guild Wars 2 players.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

Proof? It’s funny how the majority of people on a forum about a game don’t represent the majority. That is so logical.

Only if you believe that everyone who is playing is also posting; which is ludicrous at best.

Was.. that your belief?

I think everyone that is posting cares enough about what happened to this game to care enough to post on this forum – and that they bought and experienced the game.

I’m sorry, but is it ludicrous to think that someone who purchased the game and quit’s opinion is less valid than someone who is still playing? If anything, as a business owner, I would want to know why someone quit.

I would be willing to bet that your position in the world doesn’t make you think about things that way. Unfortunately, when you get higher up in the ranks of corporate America, you find out that is one of the questions everyone is asking.

This may be true, but the biggest percentage of the people who join a forum never post to it and this is documented by easily researched numbers. I used to moderate a Guild Wars 2 fan forum, and the numbers were a matter of public record, because the forum displayed those numbers. And this is true of countless forums across the internet. You should do some research before you claim people are making stuff up. I seldom make things up, but I don’t always quote statistics for stuff that’s pretty much common knowledge.

I’ve also moderated Yahoo groups, quite a few of them. In general, around 15% of any forum or online group posts, and 85% lurk. So at last 85% of the people lurking may or may not have strong opinions.

There are many polls from many sources over the years about how many people actually visit game forums. It’s not as much as you think.

So, you’re saying that the people that do visit forums are not a sufficient enough random sample to draw any conclusions from?

Or, do you believe that companies like JD Power are bogus because they don’t ask everyone their opinion?

I’m saying that the people who post have the strongest opinions and if other people had very strong opinions, they might well post more. I’m saying that a very small percentage of people really have strong opinions about gaming. Given that a lot of people are, as stated before, casual gamers, they tend to think a lot less about gaming.

I can’t tell you how many times a week I end up having to explain the term vertical progression to Guild Wars 2 players.

First, there are strong opinions on both sides. You don’t need to have a negative opinion to have a strong one – so your point is rather moot.

Second, you don’t need to be able to define something in words in order to understand it. I knew that I didn’t like vertical progression well before I knew that there was a term for it.

Bravo, you’re a genius.

clay, you had remained relatively civil in debating these points and my arguments regarding the MMO marketplace. I was enjoying refuting your presuppositions to a point… pity.

By the way, the forums are not even close to a representative sample of the playerbase. I had thought you would know that before engaging in a discussion of this nature; it’s a key facet of the situation to be aware of.

Anyway, out of curiosity how long do you say the game has before it dies?

Villious.8530:

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

Proof? It’s funny how the majority of people on a forum about a game don’t represent the majority. That is so logical.

Only if you believe that everyone who is playing is also posting; which is ludicrous at best.

Was.. that your belief?

How do you know that the people posting in the forums is not a small snapshot of the larger community? Sounds like you have insight to the numbers…..please share.

Without factual data, opinions such as these are like Schrödinger’s cat, and you can’t know the answer until the box is opened.

…..and Clay……you’re waiting your breath my friend. He’s not gonna get it.

I know. I think I’m about to give it a rest for the night. It’s funny how everyone gets so uptight when someone makes an assumption based on a few logical thoughts. I wasn’t trying to spell out the end of the world. Just merely suggesting something that, while may or may not be true, has some logical reasoning behind it.

Goodnight friend.

clay.7849:

But, anyways, you agree that forums are a good way to gather useful information about a game, but if the majority of forums are negative, that doesn’t reflect on the success of the game?

Fascinating. Please tell me how that logic works again…

Because people only post when they aren’t playing; usually when they aren’t happy about something. That’s a good indicator that you made a personal relations snafu (ascended gear). Happy players generally aren’t posting (and some don’t even know the forum exists, or care it does). That being said the general tone of the forums will always be negative.

I truly wonder.. if Arena Net rand a script that would count each unique poster and compare it to each unique player.. would it even hit 1%?

(I’m too lazy to search for it, but Arena Net already posted a similar spiel to what I wrote. You aren’t worth the effort of me searching for it).

Anyway, I’m off to rest. Keep up your crusade of … whatever the hell makes you tick.

Hawkian.6580:

Bravo, you’re a genius.

clay, you had remained relatively civil in debating these points and my arguments regarding the MMO marketplace. I was enjoying refuting your presuppositions to a point… pity.

By the way, the forums are not even close to a representative sample of the playerbase. I had thought you would know that before engaging in a discussion of this nature; it’s a key facet of the situation to be aware of.

Anyway, out of curiosity how long do you say the game has before it dies?

Again, you don’t know that.

Also, I feel like you were attacking me with some of your comments. If you weren’t, I am sorry.

Last, I guess it depends on the definition of dies. Personally, I think it is when the population starts to decrease enough for everyone to notice and servers need to be merged. It is very subjective, but I think it is one of those things that people will generally agree upon when we get there. I mean, the end is going to come eventually.

I think the tipping point to see whether we continue to see meaningful updates or an expansion would be Xmas 2013. You can say I’m crazy all you want, but I just don’t think an MMO game is going to benefit from being super casual. I’ve been wrong before.

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

But, anyways, you agree that forums are a good way to gather useful information about a game, but if the majority of forums are negative, that doesn’t reflect on the success of the game?

Fascinating. Please tell me how that logic works again…

Because people only post when they aren’t playing; usually when they aren’t happy about something. That’s a good indicator that you made a personal relations snafu (ascended gear). Happy players generally aren’t posting (and some don’t even know the forum exists, or care it does). That being said the general tone of the forums will always be negative.

I truly wonder.. if Arena Net rand a script that would count each unique poster and compare it to each unique player.. would it even hit 1%?

(I’m too lazy to search for it, but Arena Net already posted a similar spiel to what I wrote. You aren’t worth the effort of me searching for it).

Anyway, I’m off to rest. Keep up your crusade of … whatever the hell makes you tick.

You can keep believing what you want, but feel free to take a look at this:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/riverside-inn-f2p916.html?pp=20&sort=lastpost&order=desc&daysprune=-1

This was as official of a forum for GW1 as any. I linked to 6 months after GW1’s release. Personally, I don’t find the majority of the threads nearly as negative as they are now.

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

But, anyways, you agree that forums are a good way to gather useful information about a game, but if the majority of forums are negative, that doesn’t reflect on the success of the game?

Fascinating. Please tell me how that logic works again…

Because people only post when they aren’t playing; usually when they aren’t happy about something. That’s a good indicator that you made a personal relations snafu (ascended gear). Happy players generally aren’t posting (and some don’t even know the forum exists, or care it does). That being said the general tone of the forums will always be negative.

I truly wonder.. if Arena Net rand a script that would count each unique poster and compare it to each unique player.. would it even hit 1%?

(I’m too lazy to search for it, but Arena Net already posted a similar spiel to what I wrote. You aren’t worth the effort of me searching for it).

Anyway, I’m off to rest. Keep up your crusade of … whatever the hell makes you tick.

Everything here is just conjecture. If I analyze MY hard facts, I know about 18 real life people that played GW2. Out of those 18, two still play because the rest didn’t like the direction the game was going. So if I state any numbers beyond that, it’s just me spewing pointless numbers.

I post at night when I’m in bed surfing on my iPad. I know many folks that post at work, since they can’t play then. Facts in your head aren’t necessarily facts. It’s obvious who the “crusaders” are….

clay.7849:

Xia.3485:

clay.7849:

But, anyways, you agree that forums are a good way to gather useful information about a game, but if the majority of forums are negative, that doesn’t reflect on the success of the game?

Fascinating. Please tell me how that logic works again…

Because people only post when they aren’t playing; usually when they aren’t happy about something. That’s a good indicator that you made a personal relations snafu (ascended gear). Happy players generally aren’t posting (and some don’t even know the forum exists, or care it does). That being said the general tone of the forums will always be negative.

I truly wonder.. if Arena Net rand a script that would count each unique poster and compare it to each unique player.. would it even hit 1%?

(I’m too lazy to search for it, but Arena Net already posted a similar spiel to what I wrote. You aren’t worth the effort of me searching for it).

Anyway, I’m off to rest. Keep up your crusade of … whatever the hell makes you tick.

You can keep believing what you want, but feel free to take a look at this:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/riverside-inn-f2p916.html?pp=20&sort=lastpost&order=desc&daysprune=-1

This was as official of a forum for GW1 as any. I linked to 6 months after GW1’s release. Personally, I don’t find the majority of the threads nearly as negative as they are now.

The whole market though has changed in the last 7 years and one other big thing you’re not taking into account.

Guild Wars 1, as I pointed out earlier, was a niche game. Not a mainstream game. Niche game players not only tend to support each other, but they tend to hit VERY hard on people who say things against the game. Much harder than main stream games.

I posted a negative thread on that site and it was removed completely. There’s no reference to it at all. So by that standard, how do you know how many negative threads weren’t closed and removed by moderators.

Even if they weren’t, the much smaller niche player base is never going to be as vocal or negative as a large mainstream database.

After all, the mob mentality needs a mob to work.

clay.7849:

You can keep believing what you want, but feel free to take a look at this:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/riverside-inn-f2p916.html?pp=20&sort=lastpost&order=desc&daysprune=-1

This was as official of a forum for GW1 as any. I linked to 6 months after GW1’s release. Personally, I don’t find the majority of the threads nearly as negative as they are now.

GW1 was a fringe game, much like FFXI. As such it has a smaller more stable community and for some reason smaller communities tend to have a more positive and polite vibe (in forums and in game). GW2 launched as an AAA MMO and attracted all sorts from many different games, like WoW. What were the latest figures? 3 Million? That’s a lot of people. The vocal minority is a lot larger and they post more.

I only read this forum to see what litany of complaints the vocals have for the week. If you read the guild wars 2 subreddit you’ll find far less negativity (and far less complaint threads begging for changes). I’m more active there than here.

You assumed a lot about me while reading my posts. I could tell by the tangent responses you insist on giving. I’m neither for the implementation of raids, mounts, gear treadmills, etc, nor am I against it. Of course you assumed I’m some GW2 fanatic that resists “evil changes” or whatever. Honestly I don’t care. I read most of your posts imagining a squeaky voice form a dark basement. It fit well.

Its not our game. Its arena nets game. I want to see where there artistic expression, and unique take on an MMO, will take Guild Wars 2 in the coming months and years.

I also think your predictions for winter 2013 are utter crap. But time will tell, that is certain.

clay.7849:

Oh yea, NCSoft is doing so well on the coattails of GW2. It has just lost over 50% of its value in the last year and a half.

And GW2 is only 7 months old.

NCSOFT (hey they insisted on the all caps in the EULA) stock bubble popped 18 months ago. There was no fiscally sound reason for their stock to be at 380,000 KrW. It was “everyone on the momentum train to the stars”. If GW2 had anything to do with its decline it’s because NCSOFT kept telling investors it’ll be out (as well as Blade & Soul) “really soon now” for years. Just like how they told them that there will be a GW2 paid expansion in the fall. Finally someone noticed the emperor had no clothes and then “We’re on the express elevator to hell, going down!”

Heck it appears that investors in Korea were more upset with Blade & Soul’s lackluster numbers and apparent cannibalization of their other games’ players in Korea than GW2’s success in the west.

clay.7849:

I think the tipping point to see whether we continue to see meaningful updates or an expansion would be Xmas 2013.

Works for me, I appreciate you putting down something concrete. See you then!

Gab Superstar.4059:

Commercially it is doing well.

But it had to sacrifice manifesto, the credibility of the developers, and the experience of the players to achieve it.

This is getting old. How did they sacrifice the manifesto?

Villious.8530:

Everything here is just conjecture. If I analyze MY hard facts, I know about 18 real life people that played GW2. Out of those 18, two still play because the rest didn’t like the direction the game was going.

My hard facts, out of the 7 from WoW that came over with me, only I and another remain. Yet my RL friends and family are still playing, although not daily but people have lives.

What’s my interpretation? Yes, the lack of vertical progression and structures group content (aka raids) turned my raiding friends off.. surprise surprise. You’re point was? That not everyone who plays MMOs will love GW2? Sure, obviously.

I’m not saying the game is perfect, not by a long shot. Its missing quite a bit of content and features. But they’ll come in time.

(I noticed that you and what’s his name write with the same syntax and vocabulary. Do you have two account by chance?)

Geotherma.2395:

Complex and Guild Wars 2 don’t belong in the same sentence. If a 6 year old can figure out basic combat, I’m sure that 50 year old wii bowling person can. You know they have tournaments in wii bowling for people 50-80+ years old? We have a 50 something year old in our guild, they play regularly. This game appeals to many types, hence why it is doing so well. And I still know military veterans who I served with in iraq who are in their late 40’s and 50’s who play several video games, some of which are MMO’s and not just FPS games. This whole blanketing everyone with the hardcore/casual term is getting old, as is the assumption of who likes the game and who doesn’t.

Hey, I resemble that comment. Plus I’ve been playing PC games since the days of boot floppy copy protection and Hercules monochrome graphics. Before that I played Atari 800 games when “Electronic Arts” had a cool hip poster of their developers and their games came in album styled packaging.

Behellagh.1468:

Geotherma.2395:

Complex and Guild Wars 2 don’t belong in the same sentence. If a 6 year old can figure out basic combat, I’m sure that 50 year old wii bowling person can. You know they have tournaments in wii bowling for people 50-80+ years old? We have a 50 something year old in our guild, they play regularly. This game appeals to many types, hence why it is doing so well. And I still know military veterans who I served with in iraq who are in their late 40’s and 50’s who play several video games, some of which are MMO’s and not just FPS games. This whole blanketing everyone with the hardcore/casual term is getting old, as is the assumption of who likes the game and who doesn’t.

Hey, I resemble that comment. Plus I’ve been playing PC games since the days of boot floppy copy protection and Hercules monochrome graphics. Before that I played Atari 800 games when “Electronic Arts” had a cool hip poster of their developers.

It is scary that sci fi movies back then are fact, or about to be fact now… Makes ya wonder what people will come up with now for movies. While your sitting there watching the next sci fi thriller, people might start thinking “This might actually happen someday..”. What a crazy world, floppys to blu rays, 8 ton computers to micro processors.

Great game, it’s just that the rewards sucks.

Bioshockwave.5074:

Great game, it’s just that the rewards sucks.

That’s perspective. Depends what rewards you see as “rewarding”. Some people feel rewarded just by logging in :P

Vayne.8563:

The one overwhelming thing that people say about the manifesto being broken is about vertical progression which is never mentioned in the manifesto at all or even implied by it. The other thing people refer to is the “grind” in the game. The manifesto was clearly talking about killing stuff to level, or not having fun things to do while you were leveling. It was talking about leveling grind.

Of course it was implied unless you’re going to claim that many many many people misinterpreted it and arenanet chose to not correct the misconceptions when they would have known 100% that buzz on the game was being built up for months and even years prior to release on the back of such interpretations.

morrolan.9608:

Vayne.8563:

The one overwhelming thing that people say about the manifesto being broken is about vertical progression which is never mentioned in the manifesto at all or even implied by it. The other thing people refer to is the “grind” in the game. The manifesto was clearly talking about killing stuff to level, or not having fun things to do while you were leveling. It was talking about leveling grind.

Of course it was implied unless you’re going to claim that many many many people misinterpreted it and arenanet chose to not correct the misconceptions when they would have known 100% that buzz on the game was being built up for months and even years prior to release on the back of such interpretations.

There was nothing implied about it. It stated EXACTLY what it meant. I most games you have to play for a long time to get to the fun stuff. You won’t have to do that in Guild Wars 2. Anyone who even has passing familiarity with English wouldn’t try to reinvent that that paragraph meant.

There were two other interviews where vertical progression WAS talked about, but those things have zero to do with the manifesto. I’d have a lot less problem with what people were saying if they’d quote those interviews and leave the manifesto out of it.

I’m going to pass on reading the entire thread, and simply give you my answer as I see it.

Is GW2 doing well? No.

Both GW2 and Arena Net are very successful at the moment. However, that’s not the same as doing WELL. ANet is stuck with NCSoft, well known for killing games. GW2 has a list of problems that are not being correctly addressed, for whatever reason. Both GW2 and ANet as a whole are pushing forward, using momentum to keep things going and growing.

This is like a person using caffeine and energy drinks to keep themselves going. It works, and it can work pretty darned well. However, what you’re avoiding keeps building up, and eventually you can’t keep going anymore and you crash. I don’t think it’ll happen this year, but sometime in the next 2 or so, the GW2 team will take a look at the game and say something along the lines of “My god, how did it get like this?” When that day comes, it won’t be pretty.

@Clay

Hopefully you’ll see this when you wake up.

One of the things you’ve said before as part of your theory about why Guild Wars 2 might fail is that other MMOs, many others have failed. So let me ask you a couple of questions.

1. How many of those other MMOs that failed, started with a Buy to Play model? This is an important distinction because trying to go pay to play is a disaster waiting to happen for any MMO…and Rift did it and remains viable, so not even all of those failed, but most did. However, none of them, to my recollection, were buy to play, and that makes a difference.

2. How many of the MMOs that failed tried to mimic WoW in most particulars. I mean SWToR was basically WoW in space. Rift was called WoW 2.0. The problem is, there is only so much of a market for that kind of game. Guild Wars 2, while being a fantasy MMO, doesn’t really mimic WoW in most particulars. There are no raids, there is no trinity, there are no traditional quests, there is no monthly fee…the list is almost endless, down to the graphic style. So Guild Wars 2, arguably isn’t competing with WoW at all.

3. How many of the games we’re talking about have actually “failed”. What does the word failed mean? SWToR had major issues and had to let go a lot of people, that’s true. But they’re coming out with a paid expansion now. Did SWToR fail? Rift certainly didn’t fail. Aion didn’t fail, though it’s lost a lot of traffic. On the other hand, it was successful for many years now.

You’ve pointed also to the success of Eve, which remains a cult game. That’s been building player base for a long, long time…but it didn’t start with a huge player base.

All you really have is that some games with a monthly fee had to go free to play, most of which are still making money. Not quite failure anyway.

So this is what Guild Wars 2 has going for it.

1. It IS a sequel and those who enjoyed PVe at least in Guild Wars 1 seem to enjoy Guild Wars 2 as well.

2. This is a buy to play game from the start. It doesn’t suffer from the P2W aspect that many if not most free to play games suffer. In fact, it’s in its own niche which means, for now, a whole lot less competition.

3. The release was timed well. With only Pandas as competition, Anet managed to find a very nice window in which to launch the game. By the time a real competitor actually launches, there will be an entrenched, loyal fan base. It doesn’t have to be a huge one even for a game to be successful.

4. Some people really REALLY like this game. People like me who don’t like other MMOs. One of the great lines of the much maligned manifesto is “If you love MMOs you’ll want to check out Guild Wars 2 and if you hate MMOs you’re REALLY want to check out Guild Wars 2”. That line resonated with me and remains true to this day. I saw the potential of the format, but never before found an MMO I can like. I’m willing to wager I’m not alone in that boat. There are a whole lot of people out there who hate WoW, so by extension they’d hate WoW clones. It’s just logical. Are there enough of us? I believe there are.

Time, of course will tell.

Calae.1738:

I’m not sure how long they will be able to sustain this though. Their Achilles heel is a AAA MMO targeted to a mature audience. The Disney stuff might be tolerable for awhile but; it’ll get dumped really fast. Your average MMO gamers is over 30 and is demanding mature content.

Disney is mature content. Only 14-17 years old teens trying to be mature discard the perfection of a Disney animation. Lion King is among the best movies ever made.

Once you’re past 20, you’ll start to realize being mature means filling your office with playpen balls if that’s your thing. It means finally putting your favorite plushie back in your bed because you know the girls will love you for it. Being mature means you have the guts to look at a Disney animation and love it for what it is.

This game offers what a mature, 30 years old demographic wants. Once you’re that age, you’ll realize it too.

LMAO Im over 30. Thanks for informing me I would rather have ‘mature’ content. Actually… no thanks. I love GW2. Keep your Second Life Creepers… XD

Because sales totally determine the quality of the game. By this logic the garbage that is call of duty is one of the best games ever made.

TheDraco.3965:

Because sales totally determine the quality of the game. By this logic the garbage that is call of duty is one of the best games ever made.

And Justin Bieber is the best artist since WW2. Best answer you can give as an answer to WoW’s popularity.

Vayne.8563:

This is for all the people who claim the game is dying.

Star Wars The Old Republic ended up laying off a significant portion of their staff six months or so after launch. TSW ended up laying off a third of their staff, due to disappointing sales.

Anet, on the other hand, is hiring. Here’s the link to their website, which I got by following the shifting news on top of the main Guild Wars 2 page.

http://www.arena.net/

If Guild Wars 2 is doing so badly and the game is dying, why is Anet hiring?

I dont think the game is dying. While I still hold it to be a great MMO and one with a lot of potential, the developers continue to go against what they touted this game to be, which is turning a lot of people off(myself included). Maybe Ill be back some day, if arenanet gets their crap together.

Go on any MMO/online gaming website or forum. GW2 gets a lot of criticism. Theres a reason.

But no, it isnt dying.

cesmode.4257:

I dont think the game is dying. While I still hold it to be a great MMO and one with a lot of potential, the developers continue to go against what they touted this game to be, which is turning a lot of people off(myself included). Maybe Ill be back some day, if arenanet gets their crap together.

Go on any MMO/online gaming website or forum. GW2 gets a lot of criticism. Theres a reason.

But no, it isnt dying.

As long as they keep the hipsters and elitists happy, GW2 will never die a premature death.

(Hypothetical game plan).

clay.7849:

You don’t have to believe me.

But, anyways, you agree that forums are a good way to gather useful information about a game, but if the majority of forums are negative, that doesn’t reflect on the success of the game?

Fascinating. Please tell me how that logic works again…

All MMO forums are generally mostly negative because people only tend to post if they are unhappy about something. To be honest overall the GW2 forums is a lot less negative than other MMO forums I’ve seen. The only obvious thing that is still here is people mostly complaining for the sake of complaining without any really substance (apart from maybe a couple of subjects).

For example only a couple of people of my entire guild actually post on the forums, the rest is too busy actually enjoying the game. This goes for a lot of people in game. They do not bother with the forums. The forums is only a small selection of people, the vocal minority of maybe upwards a thousand of people who post regularly. What about the other hundred thousands players?

As for the game ‘dying’ you always get these silly doom and gloom threads. The game is as busy as it’s always been except for just after launch which is to be expected. I see people everywhere and majority of people are really happy with the game and play actively. These claims of impending doom are really baseless and getting tiring.