Back to WoW, make GW2 fun please.
Is it Fun? How ArenaNet Measures Success
Compromise for what? I would much rather have what was originally planned over this.
I don’t get why they even said compromise. Because aside from the few people that are pretty much married to the game, there are a lot that dislike the path the game is on.
“Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.”
– Euripides
– Euripides
I’m in agreement and I am the one that said compromise not them I kinda jumbled that post together. They said they had to let go of some things whether they be ideals or whatever, sometimes it just has to happen. (something along those lines)
Back to WoW, make GW2 fun please.
There’s a difference between making a good game and a game that can sustain a team of devs and pay their wages. I don’t think Anet simply makes changes to annoy their playerbase.
There’s a difference between making a good game and a game that can sustain a team of devs and pay their wages. I don’t think Anet simply makes changes to annoy their playerbase.
I don’t think they do it to annoy the players. I do think they do it because they think it’s the right thing to do. All this flaunting about how “we listen to all the feedback” sounds like a bunch of air when you keep getting stuff that people don’t like.
If they added things and gave reasonable time lengths as to when things that have been asked for will make it into the game instead of “we’re working on it” or “soon”, it would make the value of any type of information go up ten fold.
On top of that, reasons as to why changes are being made instead of just changing them would be a nice thing to do too. Not saying all changes are made without explanation, but, the ones that are become annoying.
“Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.”
– Euripides
– Euripides
There’s a difference between making a good game and a game that can sustain a team of devs and pay their wages. I don’t think Anet simply makes changes to annoy their playerbase.
I don’t think they do it to annoy the players. I do think they do it because they think it’s the right thing to do. All this flaunting about how “we listen to all the feedback” sounds like a bunch of air when you keep getting stuff that people don’t like.
If they added things and gave reasonable time lengths as to when things that have been asked for will make it into the game instead of “we’re working on it” or “soon”, it would make the value of any type of information go up ten fold.
On top of that, reasons as to why changes are being made instead of just changing them would be a nice thing to do too. Not saying all changes are made without explanation, but, the ones that are become annoying.
Blizzard pulls the same crap, or any other gaming company really. It’s always “soon” or “we’re looking into it” or “it’s on our radar for now”.
You’ll never, ever, ever get a time table for upcoming content unless it’s literally about to be released. This is mostly because they don’t even know themselves, in short… kittenz happen.
Although they definitely could gestimate and give us general time lines like “within the next few months” rather than “this year lol”
Back to WoW, make GW2 fun please.
Blizzard pulls the same crap, or any other gaming company really. It’s always “soon” or “we’re looking into it” or “it’s on our radar for now”.
Best example: cross realm heirloom mailing.
Back on topic, Blizz does decent with explaining why something wouldn’t work or if changes are coming, explaining why on the forum threads that are made about it.
This here is just a bunch of swerving and kiting and we get no kind of explanation as to why things happen.
You can’t tell me kitten like that is annoying.
“Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.”
– Euripides
– Euripides
It’s true Blizz is way more vocal on their forums with players, ANet could take notes. A simple confirmation that the devs are listening can go a long way.
I’m not saying ANet haven’t done that, but they could do it a lot more often. I see blue posts all the time on battle.net
Back to WoW, make GW2 fun please.
What utter nonsense. I have played plenty of MMOs before, and 2-3 weeks is a long time to get an item in any MMO.
It is amusing to me that people actually think they fulfilled the “Is it Fun” and the “Manifesto”, they did nothing of that sort, they did a total 180. I have to facepalm everytime someone tries to explain why they actually fulfilled their promises.
They are not building their game around “fun” anymore, they are building their game around what they said “subscription” games do. And that is grinds, time sinks, gated content and all of that type of content they criticized.
I’m not talking about any item, I talk about best in slot items and explained with an example how these are quite difficult to obtain. Ignoring this won’t get you anywhere. You can complete a raid in WoW only once a week, 2% chance per week means that you’d grind your time out of that raid for weeks/months to get the best in slot item. And then you’d have to do this for most slots.
People still clinging on the Manifesto because they want to prove that the game is bad just annoy me. The game is out for over a year and players have tons of feedback and behave in a certain way so that Anet has to react to that. The game is evolving according to that spoken/unspoken feedback in the best interest of the game, and ONLY Anet has the right to judge what this is. The only thing we can do to change this: give advice or behave differently ingame. When 90% of the players buy Black Lion chests once a month, then Anet gets a clear sign from us.
Just facepalm.
http://gw2style.com/index.php – show your look and rate others – great filters!!
Blizzard pulls the same crap, or any other gaming company really. It’s always “soon” or “we’re looking into it” or “it’s on our radar for now”.
Best example: cross realm heirloom mailing.
Back on topic, Blizz does decent with explaining why something wouldn’t work or if changes are coming, explaining why on the forum threads that are made about it.
This here is just a bunch of swerving and kiting and we get no kind of explanation as to why things happen.
You can’t tell me kitten like that is annoying.
There’s an argument that posting on forums or making promises as a dev is a bad thing.
Posting too much leads to people posting back, which tends to start debates. Given this is the Internet, debates turn into heated arguments with your costumer base. Never a good thing.
A dev saying they’ll implement x idea in y weeks time is a bad idea because then the players will hold you up on it. If you then go and work on it then realise it won’t work, you got this fiasco with the manifesto.
What utter nonsense. I have played plenty of MMOs before, and 2-3 weeks is a long time to get an item in any MMO.
It is amusing to me that people actually think they fulfilled the “Is it Fun” and the “Manifesto”, they did nothing of that sort, they did a total 180. I have to facepalm everytime someone tries to explain why they actually fulfilled their promises.
They are not building their game around “fun” anymore, they are building their game around what they said “subscription” games do. And that is grinds, time sinks, gated content and all of that type of content they criticized.
I’m not talking about any item, I talk about best in slot items and explained with an example how these are quite difficult to obtain. Ignoring this won’t get you anywhere. You can complete a raid in WoW only once a week, 2% chance per week means that you’d grind your time out of that raid for weeks/months to get the best in slot item. And then you’d have to do this for most slots.
People still clinging on the Manifesto because they want to prove that the game is bad just annoy me. The game is out for over a year and players have tons of feedback and behave in a certain way so that Anet has to react to that. The game is evolving according to that spoken/unspoken feedback in the best interest of the game, and ONLY Anet has the right to judge what this is. The only thing we can do to change this: give advice or behave differently ingame. When 90% of the players buy Black Lion chests once a month, then Anet gets a clear sign from us.
Just facepalm.
When you are comparing GW2 to WoW Heroic raiding, that itself should be a sign about how far this game has done a 180.
No one is using the Manifesto to say the game is bad. People use the Manifesto and articles like “Is it Fun” to show how far from their original design the team has come. They completely abandoned their original goals and went with the same old MMO formula. The point was for GW2 to be different in terms of core game design, not minor differences here and there which all MMOs have.
When GW2 tried to be like every other MMO, it also started competing with every other MMO. It is not good for the game or its future.
Companies do have the right to judge where they take their game, but companies can also be very wrong when they do.
^ I don’t think it’s that far to be honest. Ascended materials comes from basically playing the game, literally doing any major content in the game.
When you are comparing GW2 to WoW Heroic raiding, that itself should be a sign about how far this game has done a 180.
No one is using the Manifesto to say the game is bad. People use the Manifesto and articles like “Is it Fun” to show how far from their original design the team has come. They completely abandoned their original goals and went with the same old MMO formula. The point was for GW2 to be different in terms of core game design, not minor differences here and there which all MMOs have.
When GW2 tried to be like every other MMO, it also started competing with every other MMO. It is not good for the game or its future.
Companies do have the right to judge where they take their game, but companies can also be very wrong when they do.
Well, now ask yourself… why would Arena.net make that 180?
The answer (in my opinion), because the feedback they got (not just from the official forum) said this was the way they needed to go to retain their players. I’m sorry you don’t like that. I’m sorry that they felt the game to your desires wasn’t sustainable.
Did it turn out to be the right choice? Arena.net seems to think so, and I don’t think the predictable complaining on the forums is going to change their mind. The way you change their mind is by walking away, and hoping enough people feel the same.
After all, that’s how they got to this point, by people not playing their game.
I’m not talking about any item, I talk about best in slot items and explained with an example how these are quite difficult to obtain. Ignoring this won’t get you anywhere. You can complete a raid in WoW only once a week, 2% chance per week means that you’d grind your time out of that raid for weeks/months to get the best in slot item. And then you’d have to do this for most slots.
Are those BiS items in WoW being implemented as part of a system of increasing difficulty/level progression ?
If so then it is not comparable to GW2 where the level cap remains the same, new “raid” tiers are not being introduced, and the gear is not being introduced as part of an overall game progression.
I am not disagreeing with your point about the time/effort needed to acquire BiS in WoW, or any other game for that matter, but the context of that effort is rather important.
When you’re talking BiS in WoW, you’re talking the very last raid that is current content and heroic mode. That is very difficult to achieve, not many do.
However it is quite easy to gear up in decent equipment. Think of BiS in WoW as ascended or legendary, and everything else exotics.
Back to WoW, make GW2 fun please.
Well, now ask yourself… why would Arena.net make that 180?
The answer (in my opinion), because the feedback they got (not just from the official forum) said this was the way they needed to go to retain their players. I’m sorry you don’t like that. I’m sorry that they felt the game to your desires wasn’t sustainable
Oh I agree with this 100%. Their whole mantra wasn’t working and people were leaving and leaving fast. So they did a 180. But here is my problem. A developer should make changes like that during beta. Not after live, when many people bought the game based on their original mantra.
Now what they have is a whole lot of their core fanbase angry at them. And I am sorry they have to deal with it, but it is the bed they made.
When you’re talking BiS in WoW, you’re talking the very last raid that is current content and heroic mode. That is very difficult to achieve, not many do.
However it is quite easy to gear up in decent equipment. Think of BiS in WoW as ascended or legendary, and everything else exotics.
Exactly, it’s quite easy to gear up in GW2 too, exotics are achieveable almost instantly when you get 80. When you compare GW2’s ascended to WoW’s Heroic Raidgear, GW2’s ascended is much easier to obtain. You don’t even have to be a dungeon player, just play the game and collect the mats, and in about 2 weeks you have your piece of BIS-gear.
http://gw2style.com/index.php – show your look and rate others – great filters!!
Oh I agree with this 100%. Their whole mantra wasn’t working and people were leaving and leaving fast. So they did a 180. But here is my problem. A developer should make changes like that during beta. Not after live, when many people bought the game based on their original mantra.
Now what they have is a whole lot of their core fanbase angry at them. And I am sorry they have to deal with it, but it is the bed they made.
So… they should just go down with the ship, then? Commit to that initial vision as they are hemorrhaging players? I think you would find roughly 0 companies that would take that angle, at least none that actually want to stay in business.
(edited by chemiclord.3978)
Well, now ask yourself… why would Arena.net make that 180?
The answer (in my opinion), because the feedback they got (not just from the official forum) said this was the way they needed to go to retain their players. I’m sorry you don’t like that. I’m sorry that they felt the game to your desires wasn’t sustainable
Oh I agree with this 100%. Their whole mantra wasn’t working and people were leaving and leaving fast. So they did a 180. But here is my problem. A developer should make changes like that during beta. Not after live, when many people bought the game based on their original mantra.
Now what they have is a whole lot of their core fanbase angry at them. And I am sorry they have to deal with it, but it is the bed they made.
you can’t react that fast. No company can. New content/rewards need a lot of time to be designed and be just right for release. Fractals took time to develop and was the reaction to players leaving when 80 and no challenging dungeon content could be found anymore short after release. Including fractals right after Beta is not possible at any number of working developers.
The core playerbase are among those people who wanted the change, otherwise Anet wouldn’t have reacted the way they did.
http://gw2style.com/index.php – show your look and rate others – great filters!!
So… they should just go down with the ship, then? Commit to that initial vision as they are hemorrhaging players? I think you would find roughly 0 companies that would take that angle, at least none that actually want to stay in business.
“Core fans” REALLY need to get in their heads that they AREN’T more important than anyone else.
They are approaching the issue wrong, instead of doing a complete 180 they need to take smaller steps. This way they don’t anger the fans that bought the game for reasons they advertise.
Who said the core fans are more important? No one did.
you can’t react that fast. No company can. New content/rewards need a lot of time to be designed and be just right for release. Fractals took time to develop and was the reaction to players leaving when 80 and no challenging dungeon content could be found anymore short after release. Including fractals right after Beta is not possible at any number of working developers.
So you are saying they just lied from the start?
They are approaching the issue wrong, instead of doing a complete 180 they need to take smaller steps. This way they don’t anger the fans that bought the game for reasons they advertise.
Who said the core fans are more important? No one did.
again, I can’t see the 180. My arguments still stay without your comments on it. What exactly is the 180 you are talking about?
http://gw2style.com/index.php – show your look and rate others – great filters!!
They are approaching the issue wrong, instead of doing a complete 180 they need to take smaller steps. This way they don’t anger the fans that bought the game for reasons they advertise.
Who said the core fans are more important? No one did.
again, I can’t see the 180. My arguments still stay without your comments on it. What exactly is the 180 you are talking about?
From comments like this:
“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs. – Mike O’Brien, President of Arenanet
I am not going to get into this whole argument again. But obviously things like this are not true.
So… they should just go down with the ship, then? Commit to that initial vision as they are hemorrhaging players? I think you would find roughly 0 companies that would take that angle, at least none that actually want to stay in business.
“Core fans” REALLY need to get in their heads that they AREN’T more important than anyone else.
They are approaching the issue wrong, instead of doing a complete 180 they need to take smaller steps. This way they don’t anger the fans that bought the game for reasons they advertise.
Who said the core fans are more important? No one did.
You are correct. I misinterpreted you, and have since edited the original content.
And I’m confused by what sort of “gradual change” you mean. The shift has been known since November 2012, and STILL hasn’t been completed. Hell, from this forum, I get the sense that the permanent changes aren’t happening fast ENOUGH.
They are approaching the issue wrong, instead of doing a complete 180 they need to take smaller steps. This way they don’t anger the fans that bought the game for reasons they advertise.
Who said the core fans are more important? No one did.
again, I can’t see the 180. My arguments still stay without your comments on it. What exactly is the 180 you are talking about?
From comments like this:
“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs. – Mike O’Brien, President of Arenanet
I am not going to get into this whole argument again. But obviously things like this are not true.
The problem is that you really aren’t exactly grinding for Ascended gear. Your just doing content that gives you mats to get them. It would be like complaining Mario games are a grind for stars. Yes it requires repeating content, but it’s not repeating the same thing over and over (which is generally what grinds are interpreted as) and also you gotta ask yourself what you would be doing otherwise anyways in a MMO.
The only grind is for Legendaries, which like their statement implies, is for looks only.
The problem is that you really aren’t exactly grinding for Ascended gear. Your just doing content that gives you mats to get them.
Huh? That is what you do in other grindy MMOs to get better gear. You are doing the content to get them. I can’t take anyone seriously that says they actually met that goal Mike O’Brien stated. Off course they didn’t, they changed their mind completely.
But there are players that bought the game based on statements like that.
snip…
The only grind is for Legendaries, which like their statement implies, is for looks only.
Well, it IS true that Ascended (at least in the iteration it became) was NOT part of the original plan. And it IS true that the claim was that it shouldn’t take too much effort to get “Best in Slot” gear. And it IS true that Ascended either requires a LOT of gold, or a lot of time.
So, yeah… it’s DEFINITELY a 180 from the original plan… but it was a 180 demanded by a LOT of players who were abandoning the game. They WANTED a vertical progression, and there was enough of them that Arena.net felt they HAD to compromise that particular vision in order to keep the player numbers they wanted.
There’s only so far that your audience will allow you to change the genre; so I’m not particularly blaming Arena.net for having to back off on their ideals, nor am I certain there was a way they could do that without kittening off SOMEONE.
^ I don’t think it’s that far to be honest. Ascended materials comes from basically playing the game, literally doing any major content in the game.
When BiS was exotics, I could gear up by doing any content in the game that I enjoyed. Now, to BiS, I have to use the ANet approved method. It’s not “any major” content" it’s specific major content.
When I play, I like to wander around and do some of the many DE’s the game offers. I also like to kill Champions solo or in small groups with 1-3 friends. This gets me karma and a ton of bloodstone dust. I do dungeons some of the time, but I’m not interested in doing them every day, and rarely do more than 2 paths when I do. Temple events used to be fun, but are now a morass of anti-fun mechanics combined with particle blur.
In order to gather materials for an Ascended weapon (and presumably armor), ANet wants me to shoehorn myself into playing specific content — doing things I prefer not to do. BiS is also shoved into specific content in traditional MMO’s. However, I never thought that ANet would create content that was less fun than raiding and tie it to BiS, but they’ve managed to.
The problem is that you really aren’t exactly grinding for Ascended gear. Your just doing content that gives you mats to get them.
Huh? That is what you do in other grindy MMOs to get better gear. You are doing the content to get them. I can’t take anyone seriously that says they actually met that goal Mike O’Brien stated. Off course they didn’t, they changed their mind completely.
But there are players that bought the game based on statements like that.
In other mmos you do the same content over and over again to have the chance of that BIS gear (heroic 25man raid once a week for a 3% chance to get it). In GW2 you can do a variety of content. If you’re the open world player you can do Jumping Puzzles, Champions, can go and look for chests,… Then you can do dungeons or WvW, World Bosses, open world mini dungeons and Guild Missions.
I don’t know, if you don’t like any of that, you basically don’t like the game. If that’s the case, what are you doing here?
http://gw2style.com/index.php – show your look and rate others – great filters!!
(edited by Marcus Greythorne.6843)
Now, to BiS, I have to use the ANet approved method. It’s not “any major” content" it’s specific major content.
You want BIS-gear for doing a few standard events and a bit of roaming? Are you serious? Of course Anet can define content which is worth the materials. The more I read from guys like you, the more I’m under the impression I’m in carebear-land. No other game I know has anything near the amount of options to get BIS gear GW2 has, and it’s not for picking flowers and kissing grasshoppers.
http://gw2style.com/index.php – show your look and rate others – great filters!!
In other mmos you do the same content over and over again to have the chance of that BIS gear (heroic 25man raid once a week for a 3% chance to get it). In GW2 you can do a variety of content. If you’re the open world player you can do Jumping Puzzles, Champions, can go and look for chests,… Then you can do dungeons or WvW, World Bosses and Guild Missions.
I don’t know, if you don’t like any of that, you basically don’t like the game. If that’s the case, what are you doing here?
First of all it is not your place to ask people what they are doing here. You don’t own these forums or the game. Second, grinding doesn’t necessarily mean doing the same thing over and over again. And there is no way you can say that Mike O’Brien didn’t do a 180 on his words. Because he did. If you say otherwise, your words are meaningless to me.
I have seen posters that try to silence valid criticisms on the forums. It happened to all games including games like Rift and SWTOR. And those are the most detrimental posters in the game. They aren’t helping the game but trying to silence people.
Stop comparing it to WoW heroic raiding, it is a laughable comparison at the very best.
Well, I DO think it’s a valid question.
If a person loathes something so much… why keep doing something you know you’ll hate? Why keep going somewhere that you know is only going to anger you?
There comes a point where the fight really isn’t worth it. When it comes to video games, that point should come very, very quickly.
Well, I DO think it’s a valid question.
If a person loathes something so much… why keep doing something you know you’ll hate? Why keep going somewhere that you know is only going to anger you?
There comes a point where the fight really isn’t worth it. When it comes to video games, that point should come very, very quickly.
Who loathes it? I have said this on the forums, if they add another tier after ascended I am gone. I am still not happy with what they did with ascended but I will give them this last chance.
I don’t think GW2 is perfect, they have been making tons of mistakes after the end of last year. The game launched with potential that I see squandered with every opportunity.
Regardless, it is not the job of randoms to tell players what they should and should not do.
so many WoTs in this topic Oo, srsly, idk what’s there to discuss, it’s just a state of facts…
First of all it is not your place to ask people what they are doing here. You don’t own these forums or the game. Second, grinding doesn’t necessarily mean doing the same thing over and over again. And there is no way you can say that Mike O’Brien didn’t do a 180 on his words. Because he did. If you say otherwise, your words are meaningless to me.
I have seen posters that try to silence valid criticisms on the forums. It happened to all games including games like Rift and SWTOR. And those are the most detrimental posters in the game. They aren’t helping the game but trying to silence people.
Stop comparing it to WoW heroic raiding, it is a laughable comparison at the very best.
What? I’m not telling you what do play or not. I’m saying that the devs have set a certain content (basically things that are considered worth mats of ascended items by them) as a means to get BIS gear. If you don’t like this, then
a.) you won’t get BIS gear and you’ll have to deal with it. Just continue playing the game the way you want without BIS gear.
b.) can’t deal with it… you should consider playing an other game to get fun out of that.
So it’s your choice.
Your “valid” criticism is what again? That you have to “grind” (playing the game and beating certain challenges like World bosses, mini dungeons, jumping puzzles, champions, finding open world chests, WvW camps and towers, dungeons, guild missions) to get BIS gear. I’m out of words…
http://gw2style.com/index.php – show your look and rate others – great filters!!
Your “valid” criticism is what again?
No I said stop adding additional tiers to the game like you promised. Colin said he misjudged the community which is why they added ascended. He admitted it was a mistake on ANet’s part. They never “planned” to have ascended in the game. So they went back on their word and their original plan.
Now all I hope for is that they don’t add more tiers. As Colin promised again.
(edited by Xcom.1926)
BIS item in WoW: http://www.wowdb.com/items/105349-bracers-of-the-pristine-purifier#contained-in-object
3.4% droprate in a endgame raid
Yeah I’m sure you have this in a few tries. Do you want more of those exaples?
Well I assume there would be multiple bosses plus they have token systems to make up for the RNG.
Exactly, it’s quite easy to gear up in GW2 too, exotics are achieveable almost instantly when you get 80.
For a new player I wonder how true that is now with the reduction in karma rewards.
Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro
(edited by morrolan.9608)
Now, to BiS, I have to use the ANet approved method. It’s not “any major” content" it’s specific major content.
You want BIS-gear for doing a few standard events and a bit of roaming? Are you serious? Of course Anet can define content which is worth the materials. The more I read from guys like you, the more I’m under the impression I’m in carebear-land. No other game I know has anything near the amount of options to get BIS gear GW2 has, and it’s not for picking flowers and kissing grasshoppers.
Yes, I’d rather solo a champion in some deserted zone than stand in a huge group and kill something that never attacks me and that I can barely even see. If that makes me a carebear in your eyes, then so be it. There’s certainly nothing hardcore about throwing large numbers of players at events or gathering mats and standing at a crafting station.
Colin said he misjudged the community which is why they added ascended. He admitted it was a mistake on ANet’s part. They never “planned” to have ascended in the game. So they went back on their word and their original plan.
Now all I hope for is that they don’t add more tiers. As Colin promised again.
Again, it is not your place to be asking “What I am doing here”. You seem to do that a lot.
As far as I remember Anet stated that exotic gear wasn’t meant to be achieved as fast as it could be at the time so they added ascended gear to make up for that design-flaw.
How is this an 180?
again: it was just a suggestion to find something which is fun for you, if you can’t live with the way Anet intended on delivering ascended gear. Of course you can also stay and have a huge grudge because Anet doesn’t hand out ascended gear for doing one of many specific things. It won’t make you happy though, I guess. Where did I say you should leave?
For a new player I wonder how true that is now with the reduction in karma rewards.
You get exotics not only for karma. A handfull of dungeon runs (which you can do pre-80) or 2-3g per item (which you easily get way before 80) shouldn’t be a difficult thing to do.
http://gw2style.com/index.php – show your look and rate others – great filters!!
(edited by Marcus Greythorne.6843)
Yes, I’d rather solo a champion in some deserted zone than stand in a huge group and kill something that never attacks me and that I can barely even see. If that makes me a carebear in your eyes, then so be it. There’s certainly nothing hardcore about throwing large numbers of players at events or gathering mats and standing at a crafting station.
I agree it’s much harder to kill a champion solo than a world-boss (except Tequatl and maybe a few revamped world bosses) but you have to remember that these champs are group-content. It’s not difficult to defeat those with a few people. Yes, you can do them solo, but the reward can’t be better as it is for solo players than for groups because if this was the chase you wouldn’t be happy about other players joining you (which would be against Anets design decisions).
I would love to see rewards scaling for people who do champions solo, because this would be indeed a challenge… but how would you do this?
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As far as I remember Anet stated that exotic gear wasn’t meant to be achieved as fast as it could be at the time so they added ascended gear to make up for that design-flaw.
How is this an 180?
Colin state that with the intro of ascended weapons. Its a 180 because the original intention was that BiS items should be easily obtainable by level 80.
In fact at the original launch of ascended trinkets Chris Whiteside said that ascended was being introduced bridge the gap between exotic and legendary.
Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro
- “raid systems that need huge numbers of people online simultaneously to organize and play”… well you don’t have to organize still since the whole server participates in the Tequatl/world boss encounters. If Tequatl would be instanced, then yes – Anet would have gone against their statement. As these encounters are open world and everyone can participate and leave at it’s own schedule, it’s exactly as stated.
You obviously have not played Tequatl.
1. You need huge numbers (obviously). Is is doable below the recommended number of players (80 players, ie. 80% of the map soft cap)? Probably with max/min gear, food, organization etc.
2. You need to organize to taxi people off to an empty overflow map (ok, probably not anymore since the event is largely dead).
3. Merely participating with randoms does not equate to having a good chance to beat Teq.
The only difference here compared to traditional MMO is the need for common sense rather than the game forcing common sense upon you.
- “thousands of wash/repeat item-collection or kill-mob quests or dailies with flavor text support”… There’s no such thing in the game. No reputation system which need you to grind the same enemies. Quite the opposite: daily achievements give you a lot of different options how to complete these. Daily quests aren’t in either, you aren’t funneled to specific events for the event-daily, for example. You have a number of zones to choose from.
Joke post or trying to argue on technicalities of a tradition MMO?
Yes, you aren’t funnelled to a specific location to do your daily, but that’s still a daily. Even the UI says “Daily”.
In the end, all you do is figure out where the best location to repeat your daily based on your farming routine.
Dailies are “filler” content, and filler content means “you run the risk of sacrificing quality to get as much content in as possible to fill that time.”
“Can we focus our time on making meaningful and impactful content, rather than filler content meant to draw out the experience?
How many meaningful and impactful content did you play when you repeated your daily for the hundredth time?
You obviously have not played Tequatl.
1. You need huge numbers (obviously). Is is doable below the recommended number of players (80 players, ie. 80% of the map soft cap)? Probably with max/min gear, food, organization etc.
2. You need to organize to taxi people off to an empty overflow map (ok, probably not anymore since the event is largely dead).
3. Merely participating with randoms does not equate to having a good chance to beat Teq.
The only difference here compared to traditional MMO is the need for common sense rather than the game forcing common sense upon you.In the end, all you do is figure out where the best location to repeat your daily based on your farming routine.
Dailies are “filler” content, and filler content means “you run the risk of sacrificing quality to get as much content in as possible to fill that time.”“Can we focus our time on making meaningful and impactful content, rather than filler content meant to draw out the experience?
How many meaningful and impactful content did you play when you repeated your daily for the hundredth time?
I have played Tequatl.
what I meant with “you don’t have to organize” was: you don’t have to play on schedule with a specific group of players (like your guild) because the open world encounter makes it possible to go there and find enough people (most of the time) to have a good chance for good requirements of beating him.
It was important in the first days of that encounter to group up with TS or other tools in order to get the mechanics, because most people didn’t know how to act. The more time goes by the more players will know the mechanics though and it’s likely that in a month or so much more random groups will defeat Tequatl without any use of teamspeak etc. This is only my opinion, but it explains what I meant with my statement above.
About the daylies: maybe that’s how you do it (looking for the best locations) but then it’s your fault entirely to feel like playing a grind- or filler content. I do it entirely different, go to random locations in that specific zone and just do stuff and having fun roaming around. Believe me, it doesn’t feel like grind to me, when I’m doing a few events I haven’t done in months.
What would you define as “meaningful content”?
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What would you define as “meaningful content”?
A new zone that players will chew up in a week then moan there’s nothing fun to do.
What would you define as “meaningful content”?
A new zone that players will chew up in a week then moan there’s nothing fun to do.
If you release content every 2 weeks or every month you get exactly that. People all rush it then.
When you release much more at once it’s so overwhelming it takes much longer and they can fix things like sitting on chairs, a baker selling bread and so on.
(edited by Devata.6589)
Yes, I’d rather solo a champion in some deserted zone than stand in a huge group and kill something that never attacks me and that I can barely even see. If that makes me a carebear in your eyes, then so be it. There’s certainly nothing hardcore about throwing large numbers of players at events or gathering mats and standing at a crafting station.
I agree it’s much harder to kill a champion solo than a world-boss (except Tequatl and maybe a few revamped world bosses) but you have to remember that these champs are group-content. It’s not difficult to defeat those with a few people. Yes, you can do them solo, but the reward can’t be better as it is for solo players than for groups because if this was the chase you wouldn’t be happy about other players joining you (which would be against Anets design decisions).
I would love to see rewards scaling for people who do champions solo, because this would be indeed a challenge… but how would you do this?
I was happy with the rewards from soloing/small grouping champs and DE’s before. I’m even happier now that I get a little more (a few silver, a green or two, maybe a core). Under the old system, this could eventually be parlayed into BiS gear. Sure, the process could be sped along by node gathering and a myriad of other activities. This promoted variety in play. Now, if you want BiS, you’re channeled into a few activities. This is so not because of some compelling reason as in other games (like placing BiS in content that requires thought and skill rather than just time) but so that ANet has a carrot to dangle to get people to log in.
I would not have made Ascended account bound. Exotic was obtainable as rare drops, as crafted, via karma, via tokens, via badges or on the TP. If the goal line was too close, move the goal line, don’t change the rules. What ANet has done is to reduce the means of attaining Ascended (weapons) to one path. Drops are just unrealistic. I’ve killed a lot of champs since the end of the invasion event. I’m not even getting rares from those champion bags, never mind an exotic or Ascended. the drop chance is very low and you would have to get a hit on at least 3 different tables to get an Ascended you want. Crafting to acquire your preferred BiS is nothing but a time sink.
Granted, this is an MMO. However, open world content that requires a lot of players is seldom played (in my experience) at the sweet spot. It’s played either with too few to succeed or so many that it’s a yawner. How many of the Teq kills were done by 100+ people versus how many were done by 80 or fewer? I’m seeing reports of Teq being taken from one stunned phase to the next. If that’s not an exaggeration or an exploit, it’s an artifact of more DPS than anticipated. What I see happening to meta-events on a low-commitment server is meta bosses being overwhelmed by numbers rather than skill. That’s the question I’d like to see answered — how do you fix that?
edit: sorry of the long rant, but this issue is of concern to me.
You obviously have not played Tequatl.
1. You need huge numbers (obviously). Is is doable below the recommended number of players (80 players, ie. 80% of the map soft cap)? Probably with max/min gear, food, organization etc.
2. You need to organize to taxi people off to an empty overflow map (ok, probably not anymore since the event is largely dead).
3. Merely participating with randoms does not equate to having a good chance to beat Teq.
The only difference here compared to traditional MMO is the need for common sense rather than the game forcing common sense upon you.In the end, all you do is figure out where the best location to repeat your daily based on your farming routine.
Dailies are “filler” content, and filler content means “you run the risk of sacrificing quality to get as much content in as possible to fill that time.”“Can we focus our time on making meaningful and impactful content, rather than filler content meant to draw out the experience?
How many meaningful and impactful content did you play when you repeated your daily for the hundredth time?I have played Tequatl.
what I meant with “you don’t have to organize” was: you don’t have to play on schedule with a specific group of players (like your guild) because the open world encounter makes it possible to go there and find enough people (most of the time) to have a good chance for good requirements of beating him.
It was important in the first days of that encounter to group up with TS or other tools in order to get the mechanics, because most people didn’t know how to act. The more time goes by the more players will know the mechanics though and it’s likely that in a month or so much more random groups will defeat Tequatl without any use of teamspeak etc. This is only my opinion, but it explains what I meant with my statement above.
About the daylies: maybe that’s how you do it (looking for the best locations) but then it’s your fault entirely to feel like playing a grind- or filler content. I do it entirely different, go to random locations in that specific zone and just do stuff and having fun roaming around. Believe me, it doesn’t feel like grind to me, when I’m doing a few events I haven’t done in months.
What would you define as “meaningful content”?
Are you aware of the current state of Tequatl? Maybe it’s because I’m not on a tier 1 server so I’m not aware of the state there, but organization is seems to be the only way to beat Teq everywhere else since it’s empty.
Dailies are filler “content”. No ifs or buts. It’s obvious game design.
Yes, grind is subjective.
I’m glad there are people still enjoying random DEs (no sarcasm here), but to me those DEs can been seen in every other map and the flavored text is unimportant since they’re already in progress anyway (and mean almost nothing at all most of the time, anyway).
How would I define as “meaningful content”?
To me, personal story is one example of meaningful content (I’m going ignore the execution flaws the story has).
Sadly I think chemiclord.3978 has some truth to the situation, though that’s mainly because of end-game rushers and ANet’s design of drip feeding new “content” that we get those complaints.
In the end, ANet found they couldn’t get the answer they wanted. To create meaningful content instead of filling it with grind and copypasta to give the illusion of content.
If grinding isn’t fun then why are so many people doing it? I sit here as a casual player and read one post about how ArenaNet has sold out and introduced mindless grinds for every post I hear about someone who has finished the game and only logs in for Living Story content.
The truth is that I enjoy having something (for me, exotic gear) to work towards, but I also enjoy the game as I’m working towards those rewards. Not only that, when I log in, I feel like I have many options of things I could be doing.
That, to me, is fun.
Grinding isnt working,, GW2 = walking behind garbage truck waiting till youve done it for 8 hours so can go home, GW1 = working hard so you can reach the deadline at the end of the day and if you do, people find u awesome for it. But hey, some people like doing nothing all day, as long as they get their money. It doesnt really matter what u like the most,, its personal,, but one thing is sure, gaming has always been about challanging the player,, thats not what grinding is,, and thats also why GW2 will NEVER be an e-sports game. Unless they actually go back to the roots of GW1.
Now, if you want BiS, you’re channeled into a few activities. This is so not because of some compelling reason as in other games (like placing BiS in content that requires thought and skill rather than just time) but so that ANet has a carrot to dangle to get people to log in.
Well they fixed something that needed fixing a long time ago: giving good rewards to activities which take a bit more time to accomplish than regular roaming and events. Jumping Puzzles can be done in a few minutes, but for a lot of players these are quite a challenge. It’s nice that these players now see some excitement at the end of the puzzle with new rewards. Before it wasn’t worth a dime to do this content more than once. Same with mini dungeons. World bosses (especially when fixed like Tequatl or nearly fixed like the revamps of the most other world bosses) should also feel more rewarding, that’s why rewards increased here as well. WvW shouldn’t stay behind so they had to give some equal rewards there too. Where else as in capturing locations?
Doing these activities also helps other players in taking on the challenges, so buffing it with better rewards makes more people play this content which is positive for the playing with other players – credo.
Why is it bad to reward players for doing stuff with other people in open world group content?
I would not have made Ascended account bound. Exotic was obtainable as rare drops, as crafted, via karma, via tokens, via badges or on the TP. If the goal line was too close, move the goal line, don’t change the rules. What ANet has done is to reduce the means of attaining Ascended (weapons) to one path. Drops are just unrealistic. I’ve killed a lot of champs since the end of the invasion event. I’m not even getting rares from those champion bags, never mind an exotic or Ascended. the drop chance is very low and you would have to get a hit on at least 3 different tables to get an Ascended you want. Crafting to acquire your preferred BiS is nothing but a time sink.
this is one of the biggest flaws in the game for me: having exotics being tradeable. Why do you think they introduced ascended gear? Because everyone and their mum could obtain cheap exotics via trading post without any effort. Look at how low droprates on exotics are. This is an indicator on how rare these tier should have been. Now that this isn’t the case at all, since thousands of people put their exotics into the TP and prices are dropping like flies the experiment failed. Anet learned from this and introduced accountbound ascended gear. Yeah, ascended is much harder to obtain than exotics via. karma or tokens (I honestly believe that Anet thought their dungeons and temple-bosses would be much more difficult for the players than they actually are), but I guess they also had to listen to the loud crowd for making endgame-gear even rarer than it was.
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To me, personal story is one example of meaningful content (I’m going ignore the execution flaws the story has).
Do you mean content with a background-story? If so, then I’m totally with you. I also think that the game misses little quest-like stories that introduce more lore into the game. Imho Anet implements meaningful content each month. It’s only that it’s meaningful content for different kinds of players. The dungeon lovers got their meaningful content this month whereas the raid lovers got theirs with Tequatl. I also love jumping puzzles and got something not long ago also, but those stories which give the world more depth I miss the most.
I don’t know what’s going on with the writers, but I haven’t seen them releasing their stuff in a good enough quantity (and quality as well) a while ago. Queens Gauntlet had a few nice scenes in the intro, but I expect more from an mmo, personally.
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