Guild Wars 2

TexZero.7910:

At some point there’s only so much damage you can realistically dish out before you achieve overkill. I.E if the boss has 500k HP and you are all doing 125K adding another person is irrelevant regardless of outgoing damage. It wont speed things up, and it wont slow anything down.

Time between seconds does not exist everyone, you heard it here first, the universe pauses and jump rearranges with no continuity at second intervals. Burn all the books!

Khristophoros.7194:

I was looking at math on stats for power builds to optimize one of my builds. I hadn’t been aware of just how bad it can get when you try to mix in defensive stats.

What I found is that for power damage, berserker’s > knight’s > soldier’s > celestial. Furthermore, that applies to mixing in all cases. Examples to illustrate this point:
- Mixing in soldier’s is always less damage than mixing in knight’s.
- Full knight’s > any mix of knight’s/soldier’s/celestial.
- Full soldier’s > any mix of soldier’s/celestial.

Celestial looks like a way to round out a power build, but it’s a trap. It’s only good if you’re using the condi damage and healing power too.

As for valkyrie’s and cavalier’s, they result in a damage loss compared to captain’s/knight’s unless you add in external crit chance sources like fury and traits.

The big takeaway is that health has a huge opportunity cost. You have to give up a lot of damage to get health. This is because there’s no P/p/v gear.

o.O? …blink…blink

dom.2748:

No, they don’t suck. They died because you weren’t running zerker. Not enough damage to kill things fast enough. You killed your party, good job.

We’re talking Arah here right? And dying on skips right? Yeah… no. A single players low dps does not lead to the deaths of others here unless maybe failing simin or brie.

There really aren’t any notable attrition mechanics in Arah, everything is avoidable, and most professions have ample tools to do so (all but necro basically).

You have no ground to stand on blaming other people if you can’t do a skip through Arah or remember where your dodge key is. I see this argument all the time, I could agree on maybe CoF Slavedriver, Old Tom, or any fight where you will take damage, but Arah… c’mon.

So yes, they were bad players. His points are correct. But, everyone should still strive to master the game well enough that they can feel comfortable going full glass (be that condi or power).

Coulter.2315:

TexZero.7910:

At some point there’s only so much damage you can realistically dish out before you achieve overkill. I.E if the boss has 500k HP and you are all doing 125K adding another person is irrelevant regardless of outgoing damage. It wont speed things up, and it wont slow anything down.

Time between seconds does not exist everyone, you heard it here first, the universe pauses and jump rearranges with no continuity at second intervals. Burn all the books!

Missing the point a classic.

I admit seconds and time between them exist. What you’re overlooking is what does that even remotely matter. If you can kill something in this game with 4 people in 10 seconds is it such a big deal that suddenly when you add a 5th who doesnt conform you kill it in 8 instead of 7 ?

If it is, then by all means find the culprit. Odds are though that unless you check everyones gear you’ll likely not even notice.

Jerus.4350:

dom.2748:

No, they don’t suck. They died because you weren’t running zerker. Not enough damage to kill things fast enough. You killed your party, good job.

We’re talking Arah here right? And dying on skips right? Yeah… no. A single players low dps does not lead to the deaths of others here unless maybe failing simin or brie.

There really aren’t any notable attrition mechanics in Arah, everything is avoidable, and most professions have ample tools to do so (all but necro basically).

You have no ground to stand on blaming other people if you can’t do a skip through Arah or remember where your dodge key is. I see this argument all the time, I could agree on maybe CoF Slavedriver, Old Tom, or any fight where you will take damage, but Arah… c’mon.

So yes, they were bad players. His points are correct. But, everyone should still strive to master the game well enough that they can feel comfortable going full glass (be that condi or power).

He said Arah, he never named a path. I can think of several Arah legendaries where you will be subject to more damage because you didn’t kill fast enough.

Path 1 – 4: Lupi
Path 1: The legendary giants
Path 2: The thief legendary, the end boss.
Path 3: I don’t really run this path very often because it is too low of a payout so I’m not sure of the legendaries that well off the top of my head.
Path 4: Definitely Simin, yeah that is about it in that path the rest are jokes.

I don’t really care what people wear, but the facts need to be straight.
Zerker don’t die any more often than anybody else.

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

So OP, zerker glass cannon good, all else bad? I’ll remember that next time I’m rezzing those cannons in a dungeon or world event. This thread seems utterly pointless unless the point was to restart the zerker argument again.

Ok, I’ll play along. My build philosophy is as it has been since the early years of GW1; survive, damage, buff/help others, in that order of importance. Great if your char can do massive hits, not so great when you’re lay on the ground squealing for a rezz while others are busy trying to finish the fight. Or, how much better is zerker DPS when a lot of zerkers spend half a fight lay on the ground doing zero DPS? And worse, detracting from others’ DPS as they stop fighting to rezz, haha, thereby causing negative DPS!

Face rolling button mashers will always prefer zerker, those of us that know how to dodge and use attributes/runes/sigils/food/utilities know there are other options available which may help keep you alive longer. That’s not to say those people won’t still use full zerker just that I, or others like me, may need to rezz them less often.

My point was more that most of the mixes people do are horribly inefficient and they don’t do enough damage, nor are they tanky enough to justify the damage loss.

roachsrealm.9284:

how is knights more damage output than soldiers? soldiers is a power main, and knights is a toughness main.

are you sure you don’t mean captains? (same stats as knights, but power main instead?)

Because 60% of the stats on soldier’s are vit and toughness.

Survival from stats matters in wvw. Soldiers is nearly mandatory in a decent zerg build. Even running to a zerg, being in full soldiers makes it possible for me to laugh in the face of trollasins. In pve, generally, zerk is the only sensible option, outside of certain uncritable targets.

Metasynaptic.1093:

Survival from stats matters in wvw. Soldiers is nearly mandatory in a decent zerg build. Even running to a zerg, being in full soldiers makes it possible for me to laugh in the face of trollasins. In pve, generally, zerk is the only sensible option, outside of certain uncritable targets.

There really are not any uncrittable targets any longer. Wearing soldiers to Teq use to make sense, now its a waste of stats.

TexZero.7910:

Coulter.2315:

TexZero.7910:

At some point there’s only so much damage you can realistically dish out before you achieve overkill. I.E if the boss has 500k HP and you are all doing 125K adding another person is irrelevant regardless of outgoing damage. It wont speed things up, and it wont slow anything down.

Time between seconds does not exist everyone, you heard it here first, the universe pauses and jump rearranges with no continuity at second intervals. Burn all the books!

Missing the point a classic.

I admit seconds and time between them exist. What you’re overlooking is what does that even remotely matter. If you can kill something in this game with 4 people in 10 seconds is it such a big deal that suddenly when you add a 5th who doesnt conform you kill it in 8 instead of 7 ?

If it is, then by all means find the culprit. Odds are though that unless you check everyones gear you’ll likely not even notice.

I think you need to take a look in the mirror if you want to accuse someone of missing the point.

I don’t know what planet you are from, but adding a 5th player to a 4-man team increases performance by as little as 25%.

Also…. even if what you are saying is fact, which is really REALLY a stretch…. and adding a 5th player only shaves a minute or so from a 5 minute dungeon run…..

If everyone has that mentality of being the leecher and hiding his non optimal gear from the rest of the team, then the odds that you will get 4/5 zerker + 1/5 celestial or something dramatically decreases.

In other words…. when you join a team with the mentality of being the leecher, but don’t even discuss it with the rest of the team, at some point you are going to get on a team where someone else is already doing exactly what you planned to do…

What happens when 3 of the 5 players are doing this?

Do you not see the issue here?

Also…. you have still yet to explain how these other useless stats you are defending are beneficial in any way.

I know a few Arah thieves… adding 4 players to them improves performance by 0%.

dom.2748:

Jerus.4350:

dom.2748:

No, they don’t suck. They died because you weren’t running zerker. Not enough damage to kill things fast enough. You killed your party, good job.

We’re talking Arah here right? And dying on skips right? Yeah… no. A single players low dps does not lead to the deaths of others here unless maybe failing simin or brie.

There really aren’t any notable attrition mechanics in Arah, everything is avoidable, and most professions have ample tools to do so (all but necro basically).

You have no ground to stand on blaming other people if you can’t do a skip through Arah or remember where your dodge key is. I see this argument all the time, I could agree on maybe CoF Slavedriver, Old Tom, or any fight where you will take damage, but Arah… c’mon.

So yes, they were bad players. His points are correct. But, everyone should still strive to master the game well enough that they can feel comfortable going full glass (be that condi or power).

He said Arah, he never named a path. I can think of several Arah legendaries where you will be subject to more damage because you didn’t kill fast enough.

Path 1 – 4: Lupi
Path 1: The legendary giants
Path 2: The thief legendary, the end boss.
Path 3: I don’t really run this path very often because it is too low of a payout so I’m not sure of the legendaries that well off the top of my head.
Path 4: Definitely Simin, yeah that is about it in that path the rest are jokes.

I don’t really care what people wear, but the facts need to be straight.
Zerker don’t die any more often than anybody else.

Considering I’ve soloed, duo’d or 3-manned every one of those paths, well, you just don’t need the damage and complaining about a single person lacking killing you is just a sign of poor play on your part. Self respect and responsibility is a thing.

Now, Yes, your last statement is true, zerkers don’t die more as a fact, only bad zerkers die more. Actually in my experience as a generally PUG player I see more soldiers or something players die (you can tell by how much HP they go down when they get hit by attacks) than zerkers as I find most players capable of defending themselves lean towards the zerker side because they can.

Anyways, take Lupi, People can solo him… naked, without a UI, in first person, bringing in extra champs just for funsies (look at Purple Miku’s Normal/Nightmare/Hell scale) So blaming someone for doing half the damage (10% damage loss roughly for the group) for a fail is just… well pathetic. If you eat a kick/bolt/whatever, that’s on you. I think it’s far more reasonable to be mad at bad builds than it is to be mad about bad gear. A guard/mesmer not bringing reflects (no need to wallsploit but reflects in general for defense help a LOT).

Alphard (thief legendary?) is just a matter of time, reflects again help immensely, but taking longer to kill… well it jsut takes longer. She’s actually quite easy with a group, dodge out of the red circle if it pops up (give it extra room) double dodge if you get targetted for an unload without a reflect, whatever, easy fight with a full team.

P3 is actually one of the more attrition based fights with Hunter/Crusher, but good tactics and positioning will still end up making a joke of it (poison field can hurt, but cleanses/heals can keep up).

Simin is a pain, but the DPS requirement is pretty low, if it weren’t for the petrify I’d bet you’d see people soloing it without much issue, just taking a while to do so. I happened to do it just a couple days ago with a trio and we did pretty terribly… still beat it eventually, just a few more spark runs than we would have liked. Grenth is actually probably the more DPS reliant fight but can be mitigated with well timed evades or quality teamwork picking people up.

In the end, no, a person bringing in defensive gear is simply not going to kill you unless you’re a bad player (not trying to target you, just that excuse as I hate it, I have no idea about you obviously ) In the end even most dungeon paths are soloable in zerker gear by most professions. It’s just a poor excuse and shifting the blame. I’d rather have a quality mesmer/guard who does 0 damage than one that does optimal damage but is kittenty at timing their reflects/cleanses/aegis/what have you. If they feel they screw up on the personal defense side of things too much that’s fine as long as they know what they’re doing for their role in the group.

dom.2748:

Metasynaptic.1093:

Survival from stats matters in wvw. Soldiers is nearly mandatory in a decent zerg build. Even running to a zerg, being in full soldiers makes it possible for me to laugh in the face of trollasins. In pve, generally, zerk is the only sensible option, outside of certain uncritable targets.

There really are not any uncrittable targets any longer. Wearing soldiers to Teq use to make sense, now its a waste of stats.

Elemental Source and Dredge cart… they’re the banes of my Condi Engi, just saying not disputing your point.

Khristophoros.7194:

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

So OP, zerker glass cannon good, all else bad? I’ll remember that next time I’m rezzing those cannons in a dungeon or world event. This thread seems utterly pointless unless the point was to restart the zerker argument again.

Ok, I’ll play along. My build philosophy is as it has been since the early years of GW1; survive, damage, buff/help others, in that order of importance. Great if your char can do massive hits, not so great when you’re lay on the ground squealing for a rezz while others are busy trying to finish the fight. Or, how much better is zerker DPS when a lot of zerkers spend half a fight lay on the ground doing zero DPS? And worse, detracting from others’ DPS as they stop fighting to rezz, haha, thereby causing negative DPS!

Face rolling button mashers will always prefer zerker, those of us that know how to dodge and use attributes/runes/sigils/food/utilities know there are other options available which may help keep you alive longer. That’s not to say those people won’t still use full zerker just that I, or others like me, may need to rezz them less often.

My point was more that most of the mixes people do are horribly inefficient and they don’t do enough damage, nor are they tanky enough to justify the damage loss.

This exactly. Learning to use your active defenses is HUGE. Take Engi, I’d rather have a pistol/shield + toolkit/eg/nade engi with zerker than a rifle + FT/EG/Nade with soldier gear engi.

I will say I see some value to mixes at times. For example my thief will get one shot by a Lupi kick, boost the toughness/vit just a little and that becomes survivable… having a single mistake opportunity can be huge (granted this is pre major update, not sure if it’s changed, but previously I would die at the beginning of the week and live at the end due to WvW bonuses). So I wouldn’t fault someone or consider it ridiculous to have a little boost somewhere to break that threshold.

TexZero.7910:

Coulter.2315:

TexZero.7910:

At some point there’s only so much damage you can realistically dish out before you achieve overkill. I.E if the boss has 500k HP and you are all doing 125K adding another person is irrelevant regardless of outgoing damage. It wont speed things up, and it wont slow anything down.

Time between seconds does not exist everyone, you heard it here first, the universe pauses and jump rearranges with no continuity at second intervals. Burn all the books!

Missing the point a classic.

I admit seconds and time between them exist. What you’re overlooking is what does that even remotely matter. If you can kill something in this game with 4 people in 10 seconds is it such a big deal that suddenly when you add a 5th who doesnt conform you kill it in 8 instead of 7 ?

If it is, then by all means find the culprit. Odds are though that unless you check everyones gear you’ll likely not even notice.

Your point was that if you have 4 people doing 125k each to a 500k boss mob then there would be NO CHANGE by adding a 5th (I made the assumption the 5th wasn’t afk). I was pointing out that is a stupid thing to say, a very very very very very stupid thing to say.

Your reply should have been “lol I can’t believe I wrote that xD” … Don’t try and deflect with “missing the point” take the shame and laugh about it – got to have some self awareness when you say something silly.

In pve it’s currently useless to run vitality on all your armor pieces, since there isn’t enough condi damage coming from pve mobs to justify it.

Saying there is one perfect armor to suit every class is simply wrong, unless you want to go full zerker, but i personally don’t enjoy that (i don’t play pugs so screw that).
Zerker is a result of the current corner stack and blast meta, wich me and my guilds don’t participate in, the game is actually quite fun and sometimes even challenging if you don’t do it. So basicly if you do this, please ignore this message.

Anyway you should just look at your class, see what you are weak and strong at and use your brain. Basicly if you want to be tankier vs power hits, stack toughness, if you have problems with condition damage onto you, stack vitality, and then stack offensive stats to whatever you need them for.

Fox.3469:

Zerker is a result of the current corner stack and blast meta, wich me and my guilds don’t participate in, the game is actually quite fun and sometimes even challenging if you don’t do it. So basicly if you do this, please ignore this message.

Zerker’s still way better than most mixes that people do regardless of stacking or not. It’s not that it’s bad to get tankier, it’s just that most people do it inefficiently so the build is not effective overall.

Coulter.2315:

TexZero.7910:

Coulter.2315:

TexZero.7910:

At some point there’s only so much damage you can realistically dish out before you achieve overkill. I.E if the boss has 500k HP and you are all doing 125K adding another person is irrelevant regardless of outgoing damage. It wont speed things up, and it wont slow anything down.

Time between seconds does not exist everyone, you heard it here first, the universe pauses and jump rearranges with no continuity at second intervals. Burn all the books!

Missing the point a classic.

I admit seconds and time between them exist. What you’re overlooking is what does that even remotely matter. If you can kill something in this game with 4 people in 10 seconds is it such a big deal that suddenly when you add a 5th who doesnt conform you kill it in 8 instead of 7 ?

If it is, then by all means find the culprit. Odds are though that unless you check everyones gear you’ll likely not even notice.

Your point was that if you have 4 people doing 125k each to a 500k boss mob then there would be NO CHANGE by adding a 5th (I made the assumption the 5th wasn’t afk). I was pointing out that is a stupid thing to say, a very very very very very stupid thing to say.

Your reply should have been “lol I can’t believe I wrote that xD” … Don’t try and deflect with “missing the point” take the shame and laugh about it – got to have some self awareness when you say something silly.

I addressed the time portion in the exact same post you cherry picked from. Hence missing the point.

You’re assuming adding a fifth player is such a boon when in reality, in the grand scheme of things it can mean as little as 1 second. If that one second matters then your faster than superman.

Honestly how hard a concept is it to grasp, the only reason people care about zerk is for speed clearing. Which was the entire point i made.

Thanks though for your wonderful analysis on deflection when its great to see your reading comprehension is at 0.

I can’t believe this argument is still a thing.

You build your armor and runes for WvW, since literally ANYTHING will work in PvE. You can do Arah and Fractals in Nomad’s and Magi’s if you like, and will still finish easily.

Dungeons and PvE aren’t really built as DPS tests (excluding some encounters like Tequatl), and if the only viable set was Zerk, then there’d be no reason to have any other gear sets in PvE.

Also, it is a fact that Zerk players spend more time on their backs, period. The argument that “but but but one hit attack insta downs blah blah blah” is stupid because 95% of the game isn’t one hit KOs. So of COURSE defensive stats will make a difference.

So stop drinking the Zerk kool-aid, please. Is it optimal DPS? Sure. And how many of the enemies in PvE and WvW are target golems that don’t hit back?

Seriously I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

Maaaaan there is gonna be some serious salt when Anet makes all the mobs smarter, more ferocity, hit harder with condi’s, etc.

It’ll go great with my popcorn.

Kaleban.9834:

I can’t believe this argument is still a thing.

You build your armor and runes for WvW, since literally ANYTHING will work in PvE. You can do Arah and Fractals in Nomad’s and Magi’s if you like, and will still finish easily.

Dungeons and PvE aren’t really built as DPS tests (excluding some encounters like Tequatl), and if the only viable set was Zerk, then there’d be no reason to have any other gear sets in PvE.

Also, it is a fact that Zerk players spend more time on their backs, period. The argument that “but but but one hit attack insta downs blah blah blah” is stupid because 95% of the game isn’t one hit KOs. So of COURSE defensive stats will make a difference.

So stop drinking the Zerk kool-aid, please. Is it optimal DPS? Sure. And how many of the enemies in PvE and WvW are target golems that don’t hit back?

Seriously I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

Have you tried a full zerk build and had trouble surviving in PvE? I suggest you try it yourself instead of assuming every bad player who goes down often must be in full zerk.

Try it on a warrior first, then a ranger, then an ele. Tell me if you have any problems surviving with any of them.

Kaleban.9834:

Seriously I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

Simply because you can have a team of full nomad’s gear players complete a dungeon path does not in any way shape or form change the fact that doing it with a full team of players in zerker gear will be faster and more efficient.

If your pve mobs never hit you, toughness, vitality, healing power, all wasted.

If your foe dies in seconds as opposed to minutes, you are taking less damage.

Have you ever heard of the saying the best defense is a good offense?

You literally can’t even die if your opponent gets disintegrated before it can even attack.

When you get one person not pulling their weight, chances are…. something that should have been dead already will be dealing damage to your team.

Try doing Hotw p1 with a full nomad’s guardian and all zerk players….. then do it again with the same team on a full zerk guardian….

What happens?

You will find that your party will need the healing more when you bring the healer, because things are not dying fast enough and they are dealing damage to you before they are killed.

Sure, you are keeping them alive with support….. but there would be no need to keep them alive if the fight was over and done with already.

What flavor are those crazy pills?

….and pvp and wvw are a totally different ballgame, so trying to talk about all of them in the same post, or even the same thread is silly.

Anyone who is serious about pvp knows about the importance of other stats besides power precision and ferocity, because real people can’t always be facerolled the way pve mobs can be.

WvW and PvP zerk isn’t even the discussion here.

As a pvp player, you should know which stats you are going to need/want to use, and you should know that sometimes you are going to get hit, period.

The gamble of running berserker in pvp can sometimes be worth it, but other times it won’t be.

…with pve full zerker is always worth it, and there is literally nothing you gain from bringing toughness vitality or healing power if everyone is on the same page with you.

Why are so many pve players like ostriches with their heads in the sand about how the game works?

Its a l2p issue if I’ve ever seen one.

As someone with different sets of armor for all my toons and multiples of every profession, take it from me….

I know how easy mode it is to wear pvt gear and facetank…
You literally don’t even need to dodge or evade.

…but guess what…. its like riding a bike with the training wheels on….

Sure you can’t fall over.

…but everyone else is driving a motorcycle.

…and they CAN fall over….. but they don’t and they go really fast.

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

I’ll remember that next time I’m rezzing those cannons in a dungeon or world event..

I know and it’s just yet another reason why I don’t even bother trying to do random dungeons, in this game.

As if it’s not bad enough that they insist everyone gears, builds and plays their way, even when you try to (I, originally, wore all zerker), they’re still dropping like flies around you in the permastack.

Horrible, horrible, way of playing a game.

IMO, there are too many gear options.

Anet just need to make one, or two (ideally one, with just very minor secondary stat variations) and then balance the game properly around it/them.

…and I don’t mean zerker, here, I mean something with some survability, as whatever they may try to say, most people are not that good at active defence.

All this supposed “choice” is just making people insist on one “meta” and that is just utterly stupid.

I don’t want “choice” when there is no real choice and I don’t want to stand still, staring at the inside of other people’s chars, as I melee something I can’t even see past them.

End of story.

Khristophoros.7194:

Kaleban.9834:

I can’t believe this argument is still a thing.

You build your armor and runes for WvW, since literally ANYTHING will work in PvE. You can do Arah and Fractals in Nomad’s and Magi’s if you like, and will still finish easily.

Dungeons and PvE aren’t really built as DPS tests (excluding some encounters like Tequatl), and if the only viable set was Zerk, then there’d be no reason to have any other gear sets in PvE.

Also, it is a fact that Zerk players spend more time on their backs, period. The argument that “but but but one hit attack insta downs blah blah blah” is stupid because 95% of the game isn’t one hit KOs. So of COURSE defensive stats will make a difference.

So stop drinking the Zerk kool-aid, please. Is it optimal DPS? Sure. And how many of the enemies in PvE and WvW are target golems that don’t hit back?

Seriously I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

Have you tried a full zerk build and had trouble surviving in PvE? I suggest you try it yourself instead of assuming every bad player who goes down often must be in full zerk.

Try it on a warrior first, then a ranger, then an ele. Tell me if you have any problems surviving with any of them.

You know they’re in full zerk, because they are normally the ones telling everyone else they should be…

Tigaseye.2047:

Khristophoros.7194:

Kaleban.9834:

I can’t believe this argument is still a thing.

You build your armor and runes for WvW, since literally ANYTHING will work in PvE. You can do Arah and Fractals in Nomad’s and Magi’s if you like, and will still finish easily.

Dungeons and PvE aren’t really built as DPS tests (excluding some encounters like Tequatl), and if the only viable set was Zerk, then there’d be no reason to have any other gear sets in PvE.

Also, it is a fact that Zerk players spend more time on their backs, period. The argument that “but but but one hit attack insta downs blah blah blah” is stupid because 95% of the game isn’t one hit KOs. So of COURSE defensive stats will make a difference.

So stop drinking the Zerk kool-aid, please. Is it optimal DPS? Sure. And how many of the enemies in PvE and WvW are target golems that don’t hit back?

Seriously I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

Have you tried a full zerk build and had trouble surviving in PvE? I suggest you try it yourself instead of assuming every bad player who goes down often must be in full zerk.

Try it on a warrior first, then a ranger, then an ele. Tell me if you have any problems surviving with any of them.

You know they’re in full zerk, because they are normally the ones telling everyone else they should be…

Can’t say I’ve had this experience.

Honestly I never see people in pugs criticizing each other’s gear.

Is this something that happens to you?

Khristophoros.7194:

Tigaseye.2047:

Khristophoros.7194:

Kaleban.9834:

I can’t believe this argument is still a thing.

You build your armor and runes for WvW, since literally ANYTHING will work in PvE. You can do Arah and Fractals in Nomad’s and Magi’s if you like, and will still finish easily.

Dungeons and PvE aren’t really built as DPS tests (excluding some encounters like Tequatl), and if the only viable set was Zerk, then there’d be no reason to have any other gear sets in PvE.

Also, it is a fact that Zerk players spend more time on their backs, period. The argument that “but but but one hit attack insta downs blah blah blah” is stupid because 95% of the game isn’t one hit KOs. So of COURSE defensive stats will make a difference.

So stop drinking the Zerk kool-aid, please. Is it optimal DPS? Sure. And how many of the enemies in PvE and WvW are target golems that don’t hit back?

Seriously I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

Have you tried a full zerk build and had trouble surviving in PvE? I suggest you try it yourself instead of assuming every bad player who goes down often must be in full zerk.

Try it on a warrior first, then a ranger, then an ele. Tell me if you have any problems surviving with any of them.

You know they’re in full zerk, because they are normally the ones telling everyone else they should be…

Can’t say I’ve had this experience.

Honestly I never see people in pugs criticizing each other’s gear.

Is this something that happens to you?

Yes, of course.

Not anymore, as I just don’t bother anymore.

But, it did.

You’d join an “everyone welcome” group and it would turn out to be a teaching group, for skip>permastack>melee-only zerkers, in disguise.

Happened more often than not, in fact.

Presumably, they call it “everyone welcome” as they know no one would join, if they said “Endless lectures on how to speedrun and please note: I will stand sulking in the corner, AFK, badmouthing you to my guildies, if you don’t follow my every instruction to the letter.”.

Some of the “everyone welcome” random groups I joined were, truly, everyone welcome, free-for-alls (and a lot of fun, actually); but, more often than not, they were not.

Fox.3469:

Zerker is a result of the current corner stack and blast meta, wich me and my guilds don’t participate in, the game is actually quite fun and sometimes even challenging if you don’t do it. So basicly if you do this, please ignore this message.

Hi. Corner stacking hasn’t been a meta tactic for well over a year now since the FGS nerf. Good teams fight almost all bosses right where they spawn in the open. So basicly if you don’t know this, please don’t comment on PvE balance.

dom.2748:

I don’t really care what people wear, but the facts need to be straight.
Zerker don’t die any more often than anybody else.

I would love to see the stats for this. Is there an API that gives us ANet’s information on how often people die organized by armor stats?

I’m so confused by this post. Why is the OP confused that defensive gear sets do less damage than offensive gear sets? An I missing something?

Tigaseye.2047:

Khristophoros.7194:

Kaleban.9834:

I can’t believe this argument is still a thing.

You build your armor and runes for WvW, since literally ANYTHING will work in PvE. You can do Arah and Fractals in Nomad’s and Magi’s if you like, and will still finish easily.

Dungeons and PvE aren’t really built as DPS tests (excluding some encounters like Tequatl), and if the only viable set was Zerk, then there’d be no reason to have any other gear sets in PvE.

Also, it is a fact that Zerk players spend more time on their backs, period. The argument that “but but but one hit attack insta downs blah blah blah” is stupid because 95% of the game isn’t one hit KOs. So of COURSE defensive stats will make a difference.

So stop drinking the Zerk kool-aid, please. Is it optimal DPS? Sure. And how many of the enemies in PvE and WvW are target golems that don’t hit back?

Seriously I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

Have you tried a full zerk build and had trouble surviving in PvE? I suggest you try it yourself instead of assuming every bad player who goes down often must be in full zerk.

Try it on a warrior first, then a ranger, then an ele. Tell me if you have any problems surviving with any of them.

You know they’re in full zerk, because they are normally the ones telling everyone else they should be…

No, I know they’re in full zerker… because they’re me and I’m wearing full zerker. Get over yourself. If you can’t stay alive in full zerker that is on you and your inability to dodge, block ,blind, reflect and heal when needed.

NikeEU.7690:

Fox.3469:

Zerker is a result of the current corner stack and blast meta, wich me and my guilds don’t participate in, the game is actually quite fun and sometimes even challenging if you don’t do it. So basicly if you do this, please ignore this message.

Hi. Corner stacking hasn’t been a meta tactic for well over a year now since the FGS nerf. Good teams fight almost all bosses right where they spawn in the open. So basicly if you don’t know this, please don’t comment on PvE balance.

Yep, some speed running groups will pull things around corners to ball them up, but that is the same tactics you’ll find in any MMO. It is inefficient and stupid to fight with your enemies all spread out.

Aside from that nobody just stacks up in the corner for no reason.

dom.2748:

Tigaseye.2047:

Khristophoros.7194:

Kaleban.9834:

I can’t believe this argument is still a thing.

You build your armor and runes for WvW, since literally ANYTHING will work in PvE. You can do Arah and Fractals in Nomad’s and Magi’s if you like, and will still finish easily.

Dungeons and PvE aren’t really built as DPS tests (excluding some encounters like Tequatl), and if the only viable set was Zerk, then there’d be no reason to have any other gear sets in PvE.

Also, it is a fact that Zerk players spend more time on their backs, period. The argument that “but but but one hit attack insta downs blah blah blah” is stupid because 95% of the game isn’t one hit KOs. So of COURSE defensive stats will make a difference.

So stop drinking the Zerk kool-aid, please. Is it optimal DPS? Sure. And how many of the enemies in PvE and WvW are target golems that don’t hit back?

Seriously I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

Have you tried a full zerk build and had trouble surviving in PvE? I suggest you try it yourself instead of assuming every bad player who goes down often must be in full zerk.

Try it on a warrior first, then a ranger, then an ele. Tell me if you have any problems surviving with any of them.

You know they’re in full zerk, because they are normally the ones telling everyone else they should be…

No, I know they’re in full zerker… because they’re me and I’m wearing full zerker. Get over yourself. If you can’t stay alive in full zerker that is on you and your inability to dodge, block ,blind, reflect and heal when needed.

When did I say anything about me being able to stay alive, or not, in zerker (or any other) gear?

Kaleban said that people in zerker gear tend to die in dungeons and then Kristopheros, basically, said that he couldn’t know they were in zerker gear and was just assuming they were.

I then, merely, pointed out that you do know that they are wearing it, if they are the ones preaching about zerker gear, all run and telling everyone else they should use it (which they, frequently, were when I did some runs).

So, it would appear that if anyone needs to “get over” themselves, it is you.

As then you might even gain the ability to read people’s comments properly and figure out who said what and what, exactly, they meant by it.

Instead of (apparently) being so self absorbed and presumptuous, you can do neither.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Kaleban.9834:

Seriously I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

Simply because you can have a team of full nomad’s gear players complete a dungeon path does not in any way shape or form change the fact that doing it with a full team of players in zerker gear will be faster and more efficient.

If your pve mobs never hit you, toughness, vitality, healing power, all wasted.

If your foe dies in seconds as opposed to minutes, you are taking less damage.

Have you ever heard of the saying the best defense is a good offense?

You literally can’t even die if your opponent gets disintegrated before it can even attack.

When you get one person not pulling their weight, chances are…. something that should have been dead already will be dealing damage to your team.

Try doing Hotw p1 with a full nomad’s guardian and all zerk players….. then do it again with the same team on a full zerk guardian….

What happens?

You will find that your party will need the healing more when you bring the healer, because things are not dying fast enough and they are dealing damage to you before they are killed.

Sure, you are keeping them alive with support….. but there would be no need to keep them alive if the fight was over and done with already.

What flavor are those crazy pills?

….and pvp and wvw are a totally different ballgame, so trying to talk about all of them in the same post, or even the same thread is silly.

Anyone who is serious about pvp knows about the importance of other stats besides power precision and ferocity, because real people can’t always be facerolled the way pve mobs can be.

WvW and PvP zerk isn’t even the discussion here.

As a pvp player, you should know which stats you are going to need/want to use, and you should know that sometimes you are going to get hit, period.

The gamble of running berserker in pvp can sometimes be worth it, but other times it won’t be.

…with pve full zerker is always worth it, and there is literally nothing you gain from bringing toughness vitality or healing power if everyone is on the same page with you.

Why are so many pve players like ostriches with their heads in the sand about how the game works?

Its a l2p issue if I’ve ever seen one.

As someone with different sets of armor for all my toons and multiples of every profession, take it from me….

I know how easy mode it is to wear pvt gear and facetank…
You literally don’t even need to dodge or evade.

…but guess what…. its like riding a bike with the training wheels on….

Sure you can’t fall over.

…but everyone else is driving a motorcycle.

…and they CAN fall over….. but they don’t and they go really fast.

Perfectly said. The only times I ever have issues in dungeons is in the groups where we do not disintegrate things. Doing a one rounder on bosses means the stuff that normally kills players doesn’t get a chance to kill them. I still just post the path and take what ever I get, but those times where I get a group of all zerkers are the best.

Sorin.4310:

I’m so confused by this post. Why is the OP confused that defensive gear sets do less damage than offensive gear sets? An I missing something?

From what I can tell, it’s an inverse-Berserker-glorification post. Basically, another post we don’t need in order to inflame the forumers. :\

Rauderi.8706:

Sorin.4310:

I’m so confused by this post. Why is the OP confused that defensive gear sets do less damage than offensive gear sets? An I missing something?

From what I can tell, it’s an inverse-Berserker-glorification post. Basically, another post we don’t need in order to inflame the forumers. :\

Well, its a post with actual facts about numbers on it. More than any anti-zerker post has ever had other than “kitten kitten , I play how I want, and I hope all zerkers die hahahahah kitten kitten .”

dom.2748:

Rauderi.8706:

Sorin.4310:

I’m so confused by this post. Why is the OP confused that defensive gear sets do less damage than offensive gear sets? An I missing something?

From what I can tell, it’s an inverse-Berserker-glorification post. Basically, another post we don’t need in order to inflame the forumers. :\

Well, its a post with actual facts about numbers on it. More than any anti-zerker post has ever had other than “kitten kitten , I play how I want, and I hope all zerkers die hahahahah kitten kitten .”

Meh? /shrug
The ‘argument’ too quickly devolves into:
Zerk: “All you kittens keep out of our elite loot-grabbing and economy-wrecking dredging of money out of thin air!”
Non-Zerk: “Down with the snobby Zerker hegemony! I overtly laugh when you FAIL!”
It’s been discussed to death and is utterly pointless, as long as the two groups keep away from each other. Is there a guild with the tag [ZERK]? If not, there needs to be, so the strongest proponents of the strategy don’t have to use a more public-friendly spot like LFG.

I really I just don’t see a need to replicate “defensive gear sets do less damage than offensive gear sets” as an argument. There’s no need to get into detailed theory-crafting to prove:
More offense > Less offense
It’s so common sense as to defy argument.

Nor does it offer a solution or point of relevant discussion.
It doesn’t cover why other stats aren’t as potent, which is a valid point of discussion. There have been some recent threads that call for greater value in Vitality and Healing Power, so they have more utility.

Rauderi.8706:

Nor does it offer a solution or point of relevant discussion.
It doesn’t cover why other stats aren’t as potent, which is a valid point of discussion. There have been some recent threads that call for greater value in Vitality and Healing Power, so they have more utility.

From my experience many PUGs struggle in dungeons because their dps is too low.
I think its important to raise awareness for the amount of lost dps a soldiers/cleric/nomad equip, wrong runes/sigil or build causes. Anet has only dps checks ingame, they are not checking if your group got a healer or tank. When your dps is too low you will have a hard time at those dps checks. (spawning grawls in volcanic fractal, burrows in AC,…).
Even your defence like wall of reflection is time based and often runs out when your dps is too low or bosses can use dangerous attacks more often (spurs whirl in aether for example).
A good group with might, fury, vuln can compensate a defensive equip. But other groups don’t have this buffs and will have a hard time, when their equip is too defensive. (not saying everyone has to be fullzerk. But everyone should try to bring as much dps as he can handle to pass dps checks.)

dom.2748:

I don’t really care what people wear, but the facts need to be straight.
Zerker don’t die any more often than anybody else.

… I understand the zeal for defending this philosophy of playing, but let’s be honest here … we do not know this for certain so throwing it in everyone’s face as a fact is just stirring the pot. Besides, if you want to defend the zerker’s approach to playing, you have MUCH better and factual ways to do this.

What IS a fact is that a capable player can run any gear they want and be successful. An incapable player will struggle regardless of what gear they have. Gear is NOT what makes people great at this game.

I don’t think it’s a stretch to understand what people are trying to express to you here. Take a guy who struggles in zerker gear, put him in a tight spot where he goes down. It’s not inconceivable that if you give him a few thousand more HP at the , it might be just enough to prevent that, recover and pull through the fight. If you are interested in a discussion rather than an argument, being less obtuse would be a good start.