Guild Wars 2

Players will also gravitate towards these kinds of simple mindless loot opportunities when they are in the game.

Unfortunately, this leaves many other engaging group events in the world untouched and other zones desolate.

While I applaud the players resilience for staying with such a dull manifestation of the game, I feel Anet should take an approach akin to paternalism* and remove the Queens zerg, in order to force change and diversity.

This may upset some players, who feel they should be able to play how they want to play, but sometimes the world demands an authority or organization to guide us gently towards perfection.

Who is with me?

NB:

**"Paternalism" comes from the Latin pater, meaning to act like a father, or to treat another person like a child, limiting some person or group’s liberty or autonomy for their own good.

This is not the only zone with a champ train. Honestly, what do you care if players want to do champ trains? If you find it dull, just don’t do it.

I believe the main problem is that it creates a TERRIBLE first impression of the game for anybody who begins with a human character. (Which is the plurality choice.) Those champ train folks can get rather nasty in map chat.

timmyf.1490:

I believe the main problem is that it creates a TERRIBLE first impression of the game for anybody who begins with a human character. (Which is the plurality choice.) Those champ train folks can get rather nasty in map chat.

my first “wow” moment in the game was my first encounter with a map zerg. 30 people fighting one giant mob is what i got the game for. Also, this isn’t my first online game so i’m neither bothered or surprised that map chat generally sucks.

timmyf.1490:

I believe the main problem is that it creates a TERRIBLE first impression of the game for anybody who begins with a human character. (Which is the plurality choice.) Those champ train folks can get rather nasty in map chat.

^This
God forbid you attack or kill a champ before da train arrives, prepare your ascended flameshield.
Arguing is pointless.

I personally think that killing low level champions should reward low level loot (this would help with the Silver Doubloon problem, if done correctly). I am not opposed to trains, but I think they should be level appropriate. If you want level 80 loot, hit Frostgorge Sound or Orr.

timmyf.1490:

I believe the main problem is that it creates a TERRIBLE first impression of the game for anybody who begins with a human character. (Which is the plurality choice.) Those champ train folks can get rather nasty in map chat.

It may be a terrible first impression, but it’s an honest first impression. You can expect the rest of the game to be terrible if you don’t like the champ trains in Queensdale.

Why “kill” the only fun and relaxing activity in this game? You think everyone wants hard mode content with brainstorming on strategies and attack plans? No sorry.

You don’t need to argue, the champs are out there for everyone. If someone insults you, report him. I use a train sometimes too, but I would be happy if longer timers (30m ?) or other mechanics would vanish those trains again.

It does me good to solo champs in Queensdale.

Galtrix.7369:

timmyf.1490:

I believe the main problem is that it creates a TERRIBLE first impression of the game for anybody who begins with a human character. (Which is the plurality choice.) Those champ train folks can get rather nasty in map chat.

It may be a terrible first impression, but it’s an honest first impression. You can expect the rest of the game to be terrible if you don’t like the champ trains in Queensdale.

The rest of the game is nothing like the champ train in Queensdale.

I have no problem with people farming champs as long as they keep a civil tongue in their head

It kind of does create a bad impression of the game in a starter zone- new players hear that this is the best way to level- they never learn to use their class/skills but they do learn how to run a speed buff.
It also in no way shows them the many amazing things out in the world that makes this game fun to play

This again?

The only issue with the champ train is the attitude of some people running it. That’s it, if those select individuals would behave and not act like the world had ended if a champ gets killed by someone else – it’d be fine.

The champ train serves the purpose of extra gold, fulfilling Dailies, earning karma and leveling. Sure, it’s boring. So is going around doing every last heart on a map (face it, a lot of those tasks are “kill x number of things”). A lot of players just hop the train for relaxation with a guaranteed payout. If you don’t like it, well, that’s fine but don’t take it away from everyone else.

“Paternalism” should only be used if people are hurting themselves. In this case people are playing the way they want to play. People can level characters in a variety of ways – like crafting. If a person levels to 80 only by crafting should that be disallowed also because they aren’t experiencing all the content?

Not Signed.

Galtrix.7369:

It may be a terrible first impression, but it’s an honest first impression. You can expect the rest of the game to be terrible if you don’t like the champ trains in Queensdale.

I disagree.

I think the Queensdale Champions reduce the game to its worst level. There are many fantastic and diverse areas and events out in the world.

I don’t have an issue with the train. I’ll jump on it occasionally when I’m not sure what precisely I want to work on in game. It gives me the ability to think, or plan, or just sit and chat with guildies without necessarily having to worry about what I’m doing. Sometimes mindless repetition can be fun… though I’m not someone that can do it for hours…

Yes, some of the people in the train can be complete and utter kittens. However, if they aren’t in the train, then they are being kittens in some other part of the game. It’s not like they are simply going to go away if the train goes away. If they are being rude, report them, then ignore them, and move on. I know if someone starts throwing a fit about a champ being killed out of order, I say something. After all, its not the end of the world, just move on to the next one.

Exxcalibur.6203:

There are many fantastic and diverse areas and events out in the world.

This is a very true statement, but keep in mind that everyone is different. What one person finds enjoyable, another may not. To each their own. For some, the champ train is their ideal way of playing, while for someone else, standing at the TP all day power trading is their ideal way of playing, and yet for someone else, the ideal way of playing is running and rerunning the same dungeon all day. Different strokes for different folks. We must learn to coexist.

Easy way to kill the train and yet at the same time keep the difficulty of group event level?

Elites.

Done. Champs should be few and far between, but rewarding. Low level areas shouldn’t have very many.

The Champ train replaced COF. COF was full of speed runners acting all elitist and special. The champ train is more egalitarian and less prone to elitism in that it requires absolutely no skill and can be done faster.

many people would have already quit the game if there was no train
there is nothing so exacting in the game and it is like Aerlen.5326 said: " (face it, a lot of those tasks are “kill x number of things”)"

i like playing many aspects of the game, from JPs to dungeons to just exploring…………but sometimes i want a nice “shiney” that requires money or materials.

things like champ trains or world boss trains (done maybe once or twice a week….doing it all the time is unappealing to me) allows me to do have my cake and eat it too.

this is not the same farming events…..it does not keep other players from completing events……its just a way of playing content. you may not like it, but it harms no one. there are plenty of other content options if this style of play doesn’t appeal to you.

While I’m not personally a big fan of champ trains, I very much understand why they exist, given the chronic problems with other elements of GW2 (Living World monotony, difficulty scaling, risk-reward ratios, etc.) and the glacial pace at which the developers fix them.

However, I’m not seeing how basing design decisions on the behavior of an obnoxious minority will result in a better game for anyone.

That case has not been made.

Exxcalibur.6203:

Players will also gravitate towards these kinds of simple mindless loot opportunities when they are in the game.

Unfortunately, this leaves many other engaging group events in the world untouched and other zones desolate.

If everything was rewarding, then it would spread everyone out a lot more.

What’s nice about a champ train (though, I don’t do it as much as I used to, save for completing the monthly, which it’s really handy for, especially in Queensdale, since most of the champs on the train have an event associated with it), is it doesn’t take much coordination to get into, and no one is yelling at you if you aren’t fighting correctly, or letting them die, or not DPS-ing enough, or have the wrong spec, or have an ‘experienced only’ requirement to do them…and they offer a little bit of a reward over standard content.

I’ve been on a few dungeon runs in GW2 (not many, as dungeons aren’t exactly my favorite thing to do, because of the type of play styles and personalities I often meet during such content), and they don’t seem particularly difficult compared to dungeons of games past. So why is there such a better reward related to them? The ‘risk/reward’ goes out the window, there is little risk. I’m more likely to be ‘not’ rezzed and left for dead in an open world event than a dungeon.

So rather than ‘shutting down’ the train, why not open up ‘all’ content so it has equal chance of rewards, once per day?

A dungeon takes ‘n’ amount of time to complete, and you get a guaranteed reward the first time you do it each day. Why don’t other events have this? Why is the daily worth so little cash, when it can take a lot longer to complete all the steps than doing one dungeon run?

If you spread it out and made ‘everything’ equally rewarding (with the same sort of DR mechanisms built in, like the dungeons have), then there would be no ‘one best way’, and everyone would spread out and do what is more ‘fun’ for them.

Now ‘those’ would be some interesting metrics to see after several months of that.

I think ‘the dungeon’ (in it’s greater reward mechanics, not inherently the content itself) is a paradigm that has no place in the genre anymore.

Exxcalibur.6203:

Players will also gravitate towards these kinds of simple mindless loot opportunities when they are in the game.

Unfortunately, this leaves many other engaging group events in the world untouched and other zones desolate.

While I applaud the players resilience for staying with such a dull manifestation of the game, I feel Anet should take an approach akin to paternalism* and remove the Queens zerg, in order to force change and diversity.

This may upset some players, who feel they should be able to play how they want to play, but sometimes the world demands an authority or organization to guide us gently towards perfection.

Who is with me?

NB:

**"Paternalism" comes from the Latin pater, meaning to act like a father, or to treat another person like a child, limiting some person or group’s liberty or autonomy for their own good.

I’m all for this idea, but the rage that would follow if this ever happens scares me; it probably scares ANet as well, which is why the Queensdale train is still alive and well.

I don’t know, I’ll sometimes just roam queens for quick dailies, the train doesn’t seem to be having any negative effect. I still see people around. Lobie area are always fairly low populated, even at the best of times. I do the champ train occasionally, it’s a great way to farm karma or events when you only have 15 or 20 minutes to play. Other than karma from the Queens train, it’s not like you get a great deal of anything worth anything from the trains anymore. I don’t bother with the FS train anymore other than I try to run it a bit every day to get the troll chest for the empy. You tend spend more on salvage kits and wp fees than you make.

Let’s be honest, if it weren’t for the champ trains, other than map completion, what other reason do 80’s have to be in Queens, none. The train brings people in if anything…just ignore map chat.

timmyf.1490:

I believe the main problem is that it creates a TERRIBLE first impression of the game for anybody who begins with a human character. (Which is the plurality choice.) Those champ train folks can get rather nasty in map chat.

I agree with this but I want to make one point.

Not everyone wants to invest large amounts of mental brain power every time they sit down to play. When you come home from work exhausted there is nothing more relaxing than sitting down on the computer, cracking a beer, and auto attacking to victory.

So while I agree that Queensdale may not be a good location for a champ train, the game needs a champ train because every patch seems to remove more and more easy and enjoyable content from the game.

I managed to get a freind into GW2, someone who had not MMOd before. They were enjoying the gameplay up until they ran into the Champ zerg, which had people yelling at him for killing a champ ‘out of order’, making rude remarks to new person questions, and generally acting like entitled brats.

This is absolutely not an “honest first impression”. If he’d been in in any other starting zone, he would have encountered generally helpful people, a range of dynamic events, and champion enemies that would take effort to kill, and could be killed without being harassed by other players. If he’d been in any other zone period, other than FGS, he could have been playing without being a target for other players.

A bunch of high level players dominating and dictating gameplay in a start zone, no matter how jaded those high level players may be about gameplay elsewhere, is just rude, full stop.

I have to agree with the opinion espoused by timmyf – having a bunch of level 80s mindlessly running from champion to champion in a lowbie starter area is just a terrible first impression. Especially if they are encouraging a “great migration” from other MMOs, this is the first thing you want people who create a human character to see?? Some people enjoy zerging champions, fine enough, but others enjoy actual immersion in the game and questing. We should try to respect both of these playstyles.

They should either drastically increase the cooldown times (double, triple) in these starter zones at least or maybe cater to the “champion zerg” crowd by making a specific daily achievement – “Kill X champions in [insert world zone]”. At least this would encourage people to branch out into the rest of Tyria in a similar fashion to GW1 does with their dailies. Some way to get people out into these beautiful “tweener” zones they created but are vastly unpeopled these days.

ANet won’t do anything about it. but other players will. I know on TC (very popular server) there are handful of players that solo the champs “out of order” just to annoy the train.

I blame ANet for setting up a system that has that much reward for so little risk. It is sloppy and lazy on their end.

It does give a horrible impression to anyone new to the game, but honestly, they have many really new people? Maybe they do, /shrug.

I would just nerf the rewards for any champs under say 40th level.

timmyf.1490:

I believe the main problem is that it creates a TERRIBLE first impression of the game for anybody who begins with a human character. (Which is the plurality choice.) Those champ train folks can get rather nasty in map chat.

Like you are expecting a “f2p” game’s mapchat to be clean?
I don’t mind reading the “nasty” chat—it actually get very entertaining most of the time. Besides, community is not toxic and we all know about it.

I think the trains are wonderful and there need to be many more of them. I do agree that Queensdale isn’t really the best spot for one.

The best solution is to kitten the kitten out of anyone who whines and complains about them.

Eversince Fractals-Ascended came out…lot of ppl left…they warned wat would happen later on…and they were right^^
The only ppl tats left now are the hardcore grinders…..tats why the so called high level playes are dominating and dictating the gameplay like in queensdale.
Arenanet and Fractals-Asended gear made it that way…..They didnt want the hardcore grinders to leave….^^
If you look at the game now…..its really clear that Arenanet is with the hardcore grinders^^ its really becoming Gemwars2^^

I’ve never understood why people run the queensdale train instead of the frostgorge train. Whenever I run the frostgorge train i get significantly better loot. Is there a real logical reason to do the queensdale over frostgorge? serious question.

UrMom.4205:

I’ve never understood why people run the queensdale train instead of the frostgorge train. Whenever I run the frostgorge train i get significantly better loot. Is there a real logical reason to do the queensdale over frostgorge? serious question.

AR never seems to have a FGS train, at least anytime I check. shrug And typically, I don’t bother with guesting.

UrMom.4205:

I’ve never understood why people run the queensdale train instead of the frostgorge train. Whenever I run the frostgorge train i get significantly better loot. Is there a real logical reason to do the queensdale over frostgorge? serious question.

I prefer Frostgorge as well. However, when the Daily and Monthly achievements include “events” then Queensdale is far superior since all but the Spider are events, while only the intermittent Quaggan is an event in Frostgorge.

I’m still new, but I have used the Queensdale “train” several times already. Despite what you might think by me saying that, I am AGAINST the addictive nature of the train.

When I started the game I believed that Champions would only provide their loot chest to a character once per day. I had no reason to think that other than it made common sense to me. I was shocked to see that this was not the case. If the game could somehow be changed so that each character would only receive a reward in XP and loot only once per day per character, it would HOPEFULLY spread these higher level characters around to other zones. In other words, you get to ride the train one time. Log in different characters if you want and repeat, but eventually that train will not yield anything to you, and you’ll need to go elsewhere.

The positive (in my opinion) effects of this would be:

1) Champions would be more difficult (more worthy of the title of “champion”) because a) Less characters are fighting it, and b) Many of those characters are of similar maximum level to the champion. In other words, the fights would feel more “epic” instead of a 30 second firework show.

2) Characters would hopefully be spread around the other zones more evenly. I realize that many would migrate to other places with easy loot/xp, but not all of them. This should have the effect of making other zones and events more populated, making them easier to complete. I share the frustration of the OP being in a beautiful zone in the mid 40s, but no one is around to help out. When that happens it seems to take the “Massive” out of MMO, when so many zones are ghost towns, because so many characters in that level range are in Queensdale riding the train.

And there are likely other benefits I have not foreseen as well.

(P.S. I also don’t think these Champions should count for as many dailies as they do. If you time it right you can maybe get group event + champion + event + another one, all from the train. This seems to further encourage trains, IMO.)

UrMom.4205:

I’ve never understood why people run the queensdale train instead of the frostgorge train. Whenever I run the frostgorge train i get significantly better loot. Is there a real logical reason to do the queensdale over frostgorge? serious question.

The main reason I have chosen QD over FG in the past is that I’m on an alt and using the QD train to level at the same time as getting my daily done.

As far as level 80 toons who do QD, I can only assume it’s because the QD train is a lot easier to keep up with than the FG train is. Some people just want that chillax factor.

Do you really think that NEW players would be able to kill a champ in Queensdale champ train?

hihey.1075:

Do you really think that NEW players would be able to kill a champ in Queensdale champ train?

If there were enough new players, yes they could. Why would they not be able to? Are you saying they are deliberately designed to be too strong for several level 15 characters to take down?

If everything was fun and profitable in it’s own right (and in the same way), then everyone would naturally spread out and do whatever they find to be fun and enjoyable, as all activities would produce the same rewards over time.

Risk/Reward is a sad aspiration. It subscribes to the fact that as humans, that’s all the better we are. Finding value in what we got that others can’t have. I was reading an interesting study that happened by my Zite the other day about how young children ‘inherently’ seem to understand fairness. Then western society sucks that right out of their poor souls.

I would love for the time I spend completing my daily each day to reward as much cash and rewards as doing as many ‘fast/easy’ dungeon runs that can be completed in the same time. And let’s not fool ourselves, those who spout the ‘risk/reward’ are also the same people that are doing as many of the fastest, easiest, minion skipping dungeons they can each day. Not because they are fun, but because they offer the best reward for as little ‘risk’ (time spent, repair costs, whatever you want to conjure up as being a ‘risk’ in a video game).

The people that tout ‘risk/reward’ really just want to ensure that money is tied up in the good old ‘have/have not’ systems of old so as to shape the economy in a way that suits their needs. You won’t ever see them offering solutions that spreads the wealth around to ‘many more’ activities. You see them posting about how champion trains themselves are inherently bad, listing out the reasons why, all in the guise of having that faucet removed from the game so the economy swings back in favor of those activities which give them an advantage over everyone else.

I personally don’t use the train that much. I ‘preferred’ the one in Frostgorge when I was doing them, but it seems to have dried up on our server. I don’t particularly like the patterns on a few other servers I tried.

Are they fun? Not terribly. I think people that do them would be hard pressed to describe them as fun (though, when people aren’t yelling at people who kill things out of turn, they sometimes have a fun social component to them). But for many of us, they are the only reasonable way to make any sort of wealth in the game without having to subject ourselves to more abhorrent game play.

hihey.1075:

Do you really think that NEW players would be able to kill a champ in Queensdale champ train?

I do the queensdale train every day.

I see level 3-80 there.

Not seen a level 2 yet, but the others do fine thank you.

Here’s an alternate question… do we really want the following actions to be one of the most rewarding ways to play Guild Wars 2:

1) Waypoint
2) Run to champ spawn point
3) When champ spawns, auto-attack with no fear of failure
4) Repeat

I’m not opposed to rewarding ways to play the game. Or even lazy, repetitive ways to play the game. I do tend to think it’s a mistake for the laziest, most repetitive way to also be one of the most rewarding ways.

While I don’t participate in the train and I’ll snipe a champion if I am in the area, I also have no problem with the train running around. Let people play the way they want.

Let them have their fun.

Facepunch.5710:

UrMom.4205:

I’ve never understood why people run the queensdale train instead of the frostgorge train. Whenever I run the frostgorge train i get significantly better loot. Is there a real logical reason to do the queensdale over frostgorge? serious question.

The main reason I have chosen QD over FG in the past is that I’m on an alt and using the QD train to level at the same time as getting my daily done.

As far as level 80 toons who do QD, I can only assume it’s because the QD train is a lot easier to keep up with than the FG train is. Some people just want that chillax factor.

The queens train rewards karma as well as group event recognition. The FS train does not.

fourhim.3584:

hihey.1075:

Do you really think that NEW players would be able to kill a champ in Queensdale champ train?

If there were enough new players, yes they could. Why would they not be able to? Are you saying they are deliberately designed to be too strong for several level 15 characters to take down?

Two words…“Fire Elemental”. Starting characters have no chance at this event, yet there it is in a starting area…You need 80’s to take this down. Yes, it’s a world boss, but to say ANet would not include content in a starting area that starting players could not do is wrong.

Exxcalibur.6203:

remove the Queens zerg, in order to force change and diversity.

Because forcing people to do things will result in them enjoying it. Yeah, that’ll go over swell.

For every thread that wants to remove a champ train in Queensdale, there shall be 5 more.

“Paternalism” as I see it is just the view that players are too stupid to think for themselves and needed to be guided if they were little children. Which is too cynical of an approach. And honestly, putting your own viewpoint as for the the greater good is why you shouldn’t use big words like that; it just seems pretentious. I mean I know that’s kind of a problem on these forums, but it’s something that should be fixed.

This “nerf prime farming spot” has been done a lot of times (sup Cursed Shore). The only thing it ever does is kill the area that gets affected, people move on to the next exploitable spot, and there are about 346185760 threads about how it’s impossible to make gold, and honestly how can one put grind in a game and then start removing the ability to do.

So sure, I’ll see to that all champ trains are removed if ascended gear besides trinkets are removed. Nope? It’s here to stay.

In any case, we don’t need nerfs; we need buffs. Buff hard content and buff the rewards. The easymoders can stay where they are; everyone else can go enjoy something else. Teq is a good step in that direction.

Neural.1824:

Exxcalibur.6203:

remove the Queens zerg, in order to force change and diversity.

Because forcing people to do things will result in them enjoying it. Yeah, that’ll go over swell.

[sarcasm]Worked so well in Orr that now no one goes there.[/sarcasm]

Exxcalibur.6203:

Players will also gravitate towards these kinds of simple mindless loot opportunities when they are in the game.

Unfortunately, this leaves many other engaging group events in the world untouched and other zones desolate.

While I applaud the players resilience for staying with such a dull manifestation of the game, I feel Anet should take an approach akin to paternalism* and remove the Queens zerg, in order to force change and diversity.

This may upset some players, who feel they should be able to play how they want to play, but sometimes the world demands an authority or organization to guide us gently towards perfection.

Who is with me?

NB:

**"Paternalism" comes from the Latin pater, meaning to act like a father, or to treat another person like a child, limiting some person or group’s liberty or autonomy for their own good.

Some of us do not need the definition spelled out.

Some of us believe there is already enough “paternalism” already occurring in game and on the forums, thank you.

This has nothing to do with objections one way the other regarding the Champion Train in Queensdale.

Instead of killing the champ train why dont we make activities in other maps more rewarding? Im kinda tiered of this “i dont like it so nerf the kitten out of it” attitude that is in all MMO’s why dont we do the reverse and bring everything up instead of bring one thing down?

timmyf.1490:

Here’s an alternate question… do we really want the following actions to be one of the most rewarding ways to play Guild Wars 2:

1) Waypoint
2) Run to champ spawn point
3) When champ spawns, auto-attack with no fear of failure
4) Repeat

I’m not opposed to rewarding ways to play the game. Or even lazy, repetitive ways to play the game. I do tend to think it’s a mistake for the laziest, most repetitive way to also be one of the most rewarding ways.

it shouldn’t matter to you if you are playing to have fun. play what you enjoy.

what you really are asking for is to be e-rewarded fairly.
you could make champ rewards a once-a-day thing (i personally wouldn’t mind this), but they will still be a more efficiently profitable activity than more difficult/time consuming content……the train would simply move from map to map, instead of staying in one map. if you remove champ rewards altogether, you get what we had before the champ reward patch: empty maps and lonely champ events.

Relshdan.6854:

timmyf.1490:

Here’s an alternate question… do we really want the following actions to be one of the most rewarding ways to play Guild Wars 2:

1) Waypoint
2) Run to champ spawn point
3) When champ spawns, auto-attack with no fear of failure
4) Repeat

I’m not opposed to rewarding ways to play the game. Or even lazy, repetitive ways to play the game. I do tend to think it’s a mistake for the laziest, most repetitive way to also be one of the most rewarding ways.

it shouldn’t matter to you if you are playing to have fun. play what you enjoy.

what you really are asking for is to be e-rewarded fairly.
you could make champ rewards a once-a-day thing (i personally wouldn’t mind this), but they will still be a more efficiently profitable activity than more difficult/time consuming content……the train would simply move from map to map, instead of staying in one map. if you remove champ rewards altogether, you get what we had before the champ reward patch: empty maps and lonely champ events.

Ohh, I remember those days. People could get downright nasty if you even suggested doing a champ in map-chat.

Exxcalibur.6203:

**"Paternalism" comes from the Latin pater, meaning to act like a father, or to treat another person like a child, limiting some person or group’s liberty or autonomy for their own good.

Stinks of marxist socialism to me. The last thing the game — ANY GAME — needs is more nanny state controls on it’s player population. Hard to believe there are people who embrace the stripping away of their freedom, but of course, it’s usually not THEIR freedom at stake, but someone else’s. Their true colors emerge once the stick gets so “unfairly” applied to their own backsides, a concept they can never seem to envision, even while paving the way for it to happen.