Guild Wars 2

Raolin Soulherder.3195:

Devata.6589:

Belenwyn.8674:

Devata.6589:

“on the long run the shop will be the predominant source for income”
Poor people will get the same breakdown of the game as we, but at least there they are honest about it. Hope they also said that before release, not only a week after.

This is a normal process. An expansion with costs would produce a straw fire . A sharp peak in income for on quarter and a sharp declension after that quarter. After a more or less short time the shop will become the main source of income again.

Define ‘normal’.

GW1 mainly used the expansions-sales so do most non-mmo games.

You are correct that if you use expansions as income you get a drop after the q where you sell the expansion and then your next peak will be when you sell the next expansion. That however does not have to be a problem. You simply get a steady income on a yearly base. That is fine.

In fact when we look at the sales of GW1 and compare it’s expansion-peaks to it’s initial sale it’s about 100%. GW2’s cash-shop sales start to drop and are now at a steady +- 21% every q. That means that after the second expansion GW2 would have started to earn more money with a pure expansion-based model then with the pure cash-shop model they use now.

And then I am not even talk about the fact that the compromises you need to make to the game for the cash-shop to work scares away people so that number might drop even lower and if they now would sell an expansion it would likely also sell less and less people playing a game also results in less opportunity to make money with merchandise. Lastly is does not benefit the game and so in also not a benefit for the long-term perspective of the game.

The cash-shop model however is a fairly easy, risk-low, proven, cash-grab approach. That is likely why it’s the way but it does not benefit the game or the customers and when done correctly it does even not benefit the company.

earning money is only half the equation for a business. how much a company earns in sales is meaningless if you don’t know how much they spend in generating those sales. I would guess that creating expansions costs significantly more than running a cash-shop

That is true, just holing up a cash-sop would be cheaper but apparently ArenaNet has a team of +300 people working. Not all developers obviously. But looking at the LS a lot of work went in there. If most of that would have gone into an expansions I think they could have released a pretty good expansion every year. The LS does not might seem much for many people if it comes to content but all the voice-acting, all the mini instances if you take all that work together I am pretty sure it would be enough man-hour to make an expansion. How many cash-shop items did we get in the first year? That could have all been new items to drop in the new expansions. So all in all I think they could have created an expansions with the same team / money and still have a small LS team to deliver an ongoing story, of course that would then be more like we did see the first few weeks of the LS.

Devata.6589:

More money from mini’s means more mini’s in the cash-shop and other bad cash-shop behavior. They see the cash-shop making money so focus even more on the cash-shop. Overall it does not do much good for the game but worse. Meanwhile thinks like mini’s are out of the game what might not be a problem for your game-play but is for many other players. Of course you can replace mini’s with a lot of things..

Oow and that still does not show how mini’s in the cash-shop is better is good for your game-play vs them out of the cash-shop. You simply ignore the mini’s here as game-play and talk about if they have money (what they can earn in multiple ways) they can make new game-play elements so in a way you are only confirming that it’s a negative from the game-play perspective surrounding the mini.

So any money made from the gemstore (which seems to be the majority of the income for GW2) is simply put back into creating more stuff for the gemstore? Might I ask how they have financed all development since released in that case? Because I find it very unlikely that box-sales alone have been able to manage salaries for 300+ people for almost two years.

It is better for my game-play since more money for ArenaNet means more money to spend on improving the gameplay. Just as I said in the earlier post.

We all know that you detest everything that requires some sort of payment, and will do anything to invalidate it as a source of income, but the fact remains, it DOES help pay for you as well. Or do you suggest that they can improve everything without getting money?

Funny, in that article about expansions they specifically state:

‘Despite Flannum’s assurances, NCsoft and ArenaNet say they have yet to confirm plans for retail expansions.

“At the present time the ArenaNet team is entirely focused on ensuring that Guild Wars 2 is delivered to the highest possible standards at the earliest opportunity, as such future plans for expansions, campaigns or additional content are still to be confirmed,” read a statement from NCsoft and ArenaNet.’

Leaving out pertinent information is kind of an untruth, as well. One Dev said ‘Yes, expansions’, the company and the publisher said ’We’ve not yet decided.’ I guess both sides could use that article as proof, then. ; )

lordkrall.7241:

It is interesting how many people here seems to be fully aware about how ArenaNets development works.

Another thing that is funny is that when they don’t change things based on feedback (as in not follow their plan and do “on the whim ideas”) people whine about them ignoring feedback.
But now apparently they shouldn’t listen to feedback and just do their thing.

Make up your kitten minds.

I think a company always needs to listen to customer feedback and for a game the suggestion forums should be one of there main sources for idea’s.

Obviously they have to way our different idea’s and opinions and look at what they can but.

I don’t see a lot of people saying they should not listen to feedback. Only think I do see coming back to that extend is ascended gear. (Something I have not much of an opinion about) many say ArenaNet did listen to player feedback and should not have. As far as I know ArenaNet did not have that idea from players feedback but from themselves (or at least thats what ArenaNet said). Some people say ArenaNet came to that idea because people got there exotic gear sooner then they anticipated or because people complained there was nothing to do.

In all honestly I have never seen many threads requesting ascended gear and looking at how many people are against it it is also unlikely they would have gotten that from player feedback. Anyway I have no opinion about that.

Anyway other from that where some players say ArenaNet should not have listen to players I don’t see many people say ArenaNet should not listen to player feedback. So I don’t know where you see that.

lordkrall.7241:

Devata.6589:

More money from mini’s means more mini’s in the cash-shop and other bad cash-shop behavior. They see the cash-shop making money so focus even more on the cash-shop. Overall it does not do much good for the game but worse. Meanwhile thinks like mini’s are out of the game what might not be a problem for your game-play but is for many other players. Of course you can replace mini’s with a lot of things..

Oow and that still does not show how mini’s in the cash-shop is better is good for your game-play vs them out of the cash-shop. You simply ignore the mini’s here as game-play and talk about if they have money (what they can earn in multiple ways) they can make new game-play elements so in a way you are only confirming that it’s a negative from the game-play perspective surrounding the mini.

So any money made from the gemstore (which seems to be the majority of the income for GW2) is simply put back into creating more stuff for the gemstore? Might I ask how they have financed all development since released in that case? Because I find it very unlikely that box-sales alone have been able to manage salaries for 300+ people for almost two years.

It is better for my game-play since more money for ArenaNet means more money to spend on improving the gameplay. Just as I said in the earlier post.

We all know that you detest everything that requires some sort of payment, and will do anything to invalidate it as a source of income, but the fact remains, it DOES help pay for you as well. Or do you suggest that they can improve everything without getting money?

Come on man, just react on what I say, don’t translate it to your own story and then attack your own story as if it was mine. If you have to do that it only proofs you are right.

First of all I never said all money.

They create content with the cash-shop in mind. So if they make new content there is always the question “how do we get people to buy gems”. Thats what I mean bad cash-shop behavior. As that is what I said, not that it went back into the cash-shop as you translated it.

“Because I find it very unlikely that box-sales alone have been able to manage salaries for 300+ people for almost two years.” You do understand that putting money into the game means paying those salaries right??

“It is better for my game-play since more money for ArenaNet means more money to spend on improving the gameplay. Just as I said in the earlier post.”
You only say that more money is better for your game-play (what btw would suggest pure expansions focus would have been better looking at the numbers but that to a side) not why mini’s in the cash-hop improve the quality of the game as that was the original questions. There are multiple ways to make money. They whole point here is to what is better, not the fact that more money is better.

“We all know that you detest everything that requires some sort of payment,” Yeah that is why I did buy the CE, that is why I dislike F2P games and that is why I am asking for expansion every year (to finance there product) meaning I would have paid more by now then with this cash-shop focus as I have never and will never buy any gems. So by asking for something that in fact would mean I had to pay more you (wait everybody) can conclude I detest everything that requires some sort of payment.

You know with that sort of conclusions I like it that we are disagreeing here, because it gives a lot more credibility to my side of the story.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Funny, in that article about expansions they specifically state:

‘Despite Flannum’s assurances, NCsoft and ArenaNet say they have yet to confirm plans for retail expansions.

“At the present time the ArenaNet team is entirely focused on ensuring that Guild Wars 2 is delivered to the highest possible standards at the earliest opportunity, as such future plans for expansions, campaigns or additional content are still to be confirmed,” read a statement from NCsoft and ArenaNet.’

Leaving out pertinent information is kind of an untruth, as well. One Dev said ‘Yes, expansions’, the company and the publisher said ’We’ve not yet decided.’ I guess both sides could use that article as proof, then. ; )

It’s an article from about one year before release of the game. Obviously they can not officially yet confirm expansions at that time as they would not confirm that until they had made the concrete plants for the expansion. Something that would likely happen around release, not a year before release when they are still working on the game.

Thats in fact even what the article says as to why they can not confirm it.
“At the present time the ArenaNet team is entirely focused on ensuring that Guild Wars 2 is delivered to the highest possible standards at the earliest opportunity, as such future plans for expansions, campaigns or additional content are still to be confirmed,”

Also I don’t see how this would proof that they said a year ahead that they would focus on the cash-shop to generate income. As you say it is proof for both sides.

Devata.6589:

Come on man, just react on what I say, don’t translate it to your own story and then attack your own story as if it was mine. If you have to do that it only proofs you are right.

First of all I never said all money.

They create content with the cash-shop in mind. So if they make new content there is always the question “how do we get people to buy gems”. Thats what I mean bad cash-shop behavior. As that is what I said, not that it went back into the cash-shop as you translated it.

“Because I find it very unlikely that box-sales alone have been able to manage salaries for 300+ people for almost two years.” You do understand that putting money into the game means paying those salaries right??

“It is better for my game-play since more money for ArenaNet means more money to spend on improving the gameplay. Just as I said in the earlier post.”
You only say that more money is better for your game-play (what btw would suggest pure expansions focus would have been better looking at the numbers but that to a side) not why mini’s in the cash-hop improve the quality of the game as that was the original questions. There are multiple ways to make money. They whole point here is to what is better, not the fact that more money is better.

“We all know that you detest everything that requires some sort of payment,” Yeah that is why I did buy the CE, that is why I dislike F2P games and that is why I am asking for expansion every year (to finance there product) meaning I would have paid more by now then with this cash-shop focus as I have never and will never buy any gems. So by asking for something that in fact would mean I had to pay more you (wait everybody) can conclude I detest everything that requires some sort of payment.

You know with that sort of conclusions I like it that we are disagreeing here, because it gives a lot more credibility to my side of the story.

I keep hearing all this about creating content with cash-shop in mind, but I have yet to actually see a concrete example of it. So please before you keep shouting about that can you at least give us an example?

And what is this bad gem-store behavior you are talking about?
The fact that they are adding completely unnecessary stuff that people can chose to buy if they want to?

Exactly, putting money into the game goes to salaries (and other expenses) but in order to put money into the game they need to actually get money. In order to get money they need to generate income.

The game-play is improved when more resources are spent on improving it. Those resources are dependent on money. Minis in the gem-store means money going into the game without too much money going out (seeing as most minis are basically just downscaled already existing models). They could of course create loads of completely new stuff for the gemstore as well, but then that would require a far higher cost than the minis, and as such they would get less money.

And how are those $150 that you spent about two years ago keeping the game alive now?
You also seems to be under the impression that adding an expansion per year is something easy and/or cheap. It costs a massive amount of money to create expansions, and if those expansions doesn’t sell well enough it might very well spell doom for the game and the company, if they have no alternative sources of income (such as subs and/or cash-shops).

Adding an expansion a year is more or less impossible if they want to keep a high quality of said expansions.

lordkrall.7241:

~

“The fact that they are adding completely unnecessary stuff that people can chose to buy if they want to? ”
Here we go again.. Everything is completely unnecessary! It’s a game. It’s just there for fun. And those thinks you refer to can be fun to collect in the world but are just as every element completely unnecessary.

I also gave the examples multiple times to you in multiple threads. And taking such items out of the game and into the cash-shop is indeed a good example. No hunting for that skin, or that mini or that dye. Not going to a barber to change your hairstyle. None of that as it’s mainly in the cash-shop.

Turning everything also into a gold grind because most stuff does not drop in the world (so you want something you buy it with cash or gold) and of-course they sell gold so if gold is important that could increase there gem-sales.

Also the temporary nature of the cash-shop (and likely more elements of the game) are simply a marketing trick. Create the sense or urgency to get people to buy items. Not something you want to be put up with when playing the game. Somebody sees a nice skin and ask you how to get it. Answer might very well be “sorry friend can’t get that anymore”. While if it was still in the game he could go and work towards it. Playing the game, having fun. Now he is more likely to walk away annoyed or unsatisfied. So no strangely enough I would not see that sort of things as positives.

Again, yes they make money what we are talking about is how they make the money, not if they need to make money. I prefer them making it with expansions in stead of with the cash-shop.

I never said an expansion is easy or cheap but I do think that the time and money that go’s into the LS every year is indeed enough to release a good quality expansions yes.

Devata.6589:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I’d rather a min in the cash shop (no impact on game play) vs having something like ascended stats in the gem shop (impacts game play).

They have to put something in the shop to generate income. GW2 isn’t build to work like GW1. I’m perfectly content with cosmetic, trivial items being there.

It does not effect YOUR game-play. In fact if they put ascended stats in the cash-shop it would not effect my game-play. However I would still be against it as it does effect the game-play for other people.

You might be fine with those items because they don’t effect your game-play. I’m not because overall it still effects the game-play just not your game-play. There are only trivial for your gameplay not for game-play in general.

And what I am saying is not that they have to do anything for free. Simply that they make there money with expansions in stead of with the cash-shop so they don’t have to put any of those things in the cash-shop.

How do you know they can make enough money with expansions alone?

If the time and money they spend on Living Story is the same as what they would spend on an expansion, then the quality would be the same. Either Living Story is ‘good quality’ (since it takes the same time and money), or your expansion is not worth much (as many people complain about the quality of the Living Story releases.

I guess there would be little difference, then. Just how long one would have to wait. You’ve said the game is already ruined because of the Gem Store, so even if they release an expansion, the income will be the same. I still prefer not to wait so long between content releases. It’s not like an expansion will give something better, as they spend the same time and money doing either.

lordkrall.7241:

It is interesting how many people here seems to be fully aware about how ArenaNets development works.

Another thing that is funny is that when they don’t change things based on feedback (as in not follow their plan and do “on the whim ideas”) people whine about them ignoring feedback.
But now apparently they shouldn’t listen to feedback and just do their thing.

Make up your kitten minds.

Who says they can’t change things based on feedback when you have a longer, thought out, plan? Sounds like poor planning if they can’t do that.
Also, learn to read some interviews from the employees themselves, then?
http://www.guildwars2hub.com/features/interviews/exclusive-interview-arenanets-bobby-stein

Bobby Stein: We’ve had to adapt to an entirely new production process to write stories for the live game, which has required us to approach each release’s narrative needs very differently.

The tough thing about the Living World concept is that stories should mostly be self-contained within two releases. That’s not to say that the characters can’t have longer arcs or be involved in subplots, but the immediate stories need to wrap up rather quickly due to some internal dependencies and how we’re dividing up labor and so on. That can make it hard to give the sense that the world is evolving, especially when some of this great new content is removed shortly after it’s been released.

It was either this interview or another that they also mention the story is done after designing their content.
Their story telling techniques are poor due to poor overall planning.
You’d think the personal story, and GW1 would be more than enough feedback on how to shape the next story.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

If the time and money they spend on Living Story is the same as what they would spend on an expansion, then the quality would be the same. Either Living Story is ‘good quality’ (since it takes the same time and money), or your expansion is not worth much (as many people complain about the quality of the Living Story releases.

I guess there would be little difference, then. Just how long one would have to wait. You’ve said the game is already ruined because of the Gem Store, so even if they release an expansion, the income will be the same. I still prefer not to wait so long between content releases. It’s not like an expansion will give something better, as they spend the same time and money doing either.

Try baking a cake like this one day:
Divide the cake batter into 10 portions, then start baking 1 portion.
At every 10 minutes or so, add another portion on top of the existing cake being baked. Feel free to make some changes to the batter as you add them in.

Do tell me the outcome of the cake.

Xae Isareth.1364:

Devata.6589:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I’d rather a min in the cash shop (no impact on game play) vs having something like ascended stats in the gem shop (impacts game play).

They have to put something in the shop to generate income. GW2 isn’t build to work like GW1. I’m perfectly content with cosmetic, trivial items being there.

It does not effect YOUR game-play. In fact if they put ascended stats in the cash-shop it would not effect my game-play. However I would still be against it as it does effect the game-play for other people.

You might be fine with those items because they don’t effect your game-play. I’m not because overall it still effects the game-play just not your game-play. There are only trivial for your gameplay not for game-play in general.

And what I am saying is not that they have to do anything for free. Simply that they make there money with expansions in stead of with the cash-shop so they don’t have to put any of those things in the cash-shop.

How do you know they can make enough money with expansions alone?

Well because they did it with GW1, most non-mmo’s use a similar model where they release an expansion or a sequel like 3 years later. But maybe the best way to conclude that is that the numbers Ncsoft released.

Here are the numbers:
https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/151443/1q14_NCSoft.jpg

What you can then do is see how much the income peaks with every expansion compared to the original sale for GW1. That’s on average 100%. Then you look at GW2 where you consider all income after the Q it was released as cash-shop and compare that to the original sale. Then you see it slowly drops and now seems to be steady at about 21% per q of the original sale. So an expansion every year (when having used a true expansions-based model.. I do think numbers would now be lower because they already alienated to many people) would likely generate about 100% of initial sale while the cash-shop generates about 84%. Of course you can never know completely sure but thats what you get from interpretation the numbers.

When I did see these numbers I was surprised myself., I figured the expansion model would really benefit in the long run so after 3 years it would slowly increase taking over from the cash-shop model and it would have a longer life-span so also generate money longer. These numbers suggest it’s even a bigger change putting the expansions-based model ahead already after it’s second year.. when releasing an expansion every year.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

If the time and money they spend on Living Story is the same as what they would spend on an expansion, then the quality would be the same. Either Living Story is ‘good quality’ (since it takes the same time and money), or your expansion is not worth much (as many people complain about the quality of the Living Story releases.

I guess there would be little difference, then. Just how long one would have to wait. You’ve said the game is already ruined because of the Gem Store, so even if they release an expansion, the income will be the same. I still prefer not to wait so long between content releases. It’s not like an expansion will give something better, as they spend the same time and money doing either.

Thats not accurate because the way you spend money effects your output. Same money in does not equal always same quality out.

Just take one of the many little instances we did have with the LS. Usually there was one character. That means voice-acting. That can easily cost a day of work recording (depends on the lines). Maybe people from Anet have to go to the voice-actor, maybe they send it over online (as I know it they have voice-actors from multiple places). Then that audio needs to be edited, the character needs to be animated and scripted, the instance need to be modeled. Mobs need to be created or animated or scripted / programmed (depending on the type of content and what is new). There go’s a lot of work into that. And then? A player go’s in. The people who do not care about the story don’t even listen to what the NPC is saying just wishing she / he stopt talking so they can start fighting. They kill a few mobs and they leave to never see that content again. Meanwhile the forums explode because those people who wanted dungeon-like content got only a small instance, the story people (who really got most attention) complain that the story is shallow and a few weeks later nobody really remembers the instance anymore. So it’s seen by many as none content and really it isn’t content anymore.

Lets say they would have been building a dungeon that would have been more work but likely the same amount of work as multiple mini instances we did see in the LS. The story could have been told better because there was more time / content in the game itself to tell it. The person wanting a dungeon would be happy, the person wanting a good story would be happy and it would be re-playable so it would have added content value.

Voice-acting and scripting could also have gone into new NPC’s on a new maps. Some of the voice-acting could have been reused multiple times. Adding to a bigger world. Much of the time that went into the small temporary activities could have gone into hearts, DE or maybe traditional quest (as we have seen some of them in the LS) for those maps. Overall giving more hihger quality content to play with that stays and should keep more people happy.

But you would have to wait a year before getting your expansion not have a lot in-between. Maybe one bigger patch and a very small ongoing story. But nothing like we did see with the LS. That is true. Higher quality but no bi-weekly LS patches.

Meanwhile because they make money that way they could put much of the cash-shop items as drops from specific mobs and events and bosses making it fun and worth while exploring it. No need for everything to be a gold-grind and no temporary stuff!, increasing the overall fun and quality of the game.

hey, why don’t you mention they are selling bloody prince’s outfit for 3000 rmb, which equals to about $500.

All I really have to say is.. Brace yourselves, Chinese names incoming

Devata.6589:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

If the time and money they spend on Living Story is the same as what they would spend on an expansion, then the quality would be the same. Either Living Story is ‘good quality’ (since it takes the same time and money), or your expansion is not worth much (as many people complain about the quality of the Living Story releases.

I guess there would be little difference, then. Just how long one would have to wait. You’ve said the game is already ruined because of the Gem Store, so even if they release an expansion, the income will be the same. I still prefer not to wait so long between content releases. It’s not like an expansion will give something better, as they spend the same time and money doing either.

Thats not accurate because they way it’s spend you can get more back for the what you put in.

Just take one of the many little instances we did have with the LS. Usually there was one character. That means voice-acting. That can easily cost a day of work recording (depends on the lines). Maybe people from Anet have to go to the voice-actor, maybe they send it over (as I know it they have voice-actors from multiple places). Then that audio needs to be edited, the character needs to be animated and scripted, the instanced need to be modeled. Mobs need to be created or animated or scripted / programmer (depending on the type of content and what is new). There go’s a lot of work into that. And then? A player go’s in. The people who do not care about the story don’t even listen to what the NPC is saying just wishing she stop so they can start fighting. They kill a few mobs and they leave to never see that content again. Meanwhile the forums explode because those people who wanted dungeon-like content got only a small instance, the story people (who really got most attention) complain that the story is shallow and a few weeks later nobody really remembers the instance anymore. So it’s seen by many as none content and really it isn’t content anymore.

Lets say they would have been building a dungeon that would have been more work but likely the same amount of work as multiple dungeons. The story could have been told better because there was more time / content in the game itself to tell it. The person wanting a dungeon would be happy, the person wanting a good story would be happy and it would be re-playable so it would have added content value.

Voice-acting and scripting could also have gone into new NPC’s on a new maps. Some of the voice-acting could have been reused multiple times. Adding to a bigger world. Many of time that went into the small temporary activities could have gone into hearts, DE or maybe traditional quest (as we have seen some of them in the LS) for those maps. Overall giving more content to play with that stays and should keep more people happy.

But you would have to wait a year before getting your expansion not have a lot in-between. Maybe one bigger patch and a very small ongoing story. But nothing like we did see with the LS. That is true.

Meanwhile because they make money that way they could put much of the cash-shop items as drops from specific mobs and events and bosses making it fun and worth while exploring it. No need for everything to be a gold-grind and no temporary stuff increasing the overall fun and quality of the game.

I was merely quoting you, but of course it is different now.

B2P is like the admission price to an amusement park. You can ride all the rides but that doesn’t mean you can get that stuffed unicorn at the ring toss for free.

Here we go again, a thread turned into a “Devata” thread once again. You guys are new in this forum? Maybe you should consider to check he/her post historic.

But he’s like the reoccurring heavy on a TV series that monologues before escaping, leaving the hero with something to think about. While his PoV is important as all player’s PoV are, I not sure what percentage of the active population (not sure if he’s truly active) share his opinion.

In china either spvp or gvg as an esport has a pretty decent chance. The key point here is that there is a significant amount of organized players and guilds who have moved over wholesale from the na/eu version.

In NA it took a while after launch for the meta to shake down and for gvg and established teams to be a “thing”. For china there is no “shakedown period” or “discovery period” as these guilds are bringing the entire established and well polished pvp/gvg culture and play style to a huge number of players who have never expierenced it.

And most importantly they are doing it during the launch period where player numbers are huge and growing while providing a solid and organized game mode+meta which will retain players a lot more than the chaos “trial by fire” that is most mmo launches.

Poplolita.2638:

Here we go again, a thread turned into a “Devata” thread once again. You guys are new in this forum? Maybe you should consider to check he/her post historic.

I don’t so much turn it into this I look for threads that touch the subject. (Like this thread did because of “on the long run the shop will be the predominant source for income”. What is exactly what most of my comments go about.. check my history). I did not put that sentence there you know. It are people that go with it or against it creating the discussion with me.

Check back in this thread. I started with only one smaller comment:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/KongZhong-Details-about-GW2-China/first#post4073023
Then there was a reaction on that: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/KongZhong-Details-about-GW2-China/first#post4073122

On what I reacted:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/KongZhong-Details-about-GW2-China/first#post4073252

On what somebody else reacted (without quoting) and thats how the whole discussion started. It’s not like I am looking to turn threads into anything like you suggest. But I do leave my opinion and it’s obviously a subject that go’s to many people hearts / thoughts because it usually turns into a discussion.

Besides there are more and more threads with this subject popping up and I don’t create them. Last thread I created myself about this subject what this. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/A-focus-on-micro-transactions/first So in December of last year.

It’s what I care about (It’s what I see as one of the biggest core problems with GW2) so it’s what I post about. If I post some initial reactions after that I mainly react on comments to me. But I also getting tired of repeating the same thing over and over again to the same people (what also happens a lot). I give you that.

Anyway, all I want to do is give people something to think about because a lot of times I so see people complain about the effects of that cash-shop focus so then I give the perspective as to what could the the reason of the effect they complain about (that focus).

(Many comments of me also go about the temporary nature of the LS btw, something else I care about. Guess that are then also Devata threads?)

I also don’t really know what your problem is with me mainly talking about this subject? Is that a problem? Or you rather not have me reacting on people that react on me? Rather keep it shallow?

I see more and more people complaining about exactly this so be happy that I am willing to go deeper into the subject (yes then it can become a discussion) then just comment a complain and leave not to be seen again.

It’s you who commented to somebody else ‘just the comment before this one’, “You assume way too much… Why don’t you try to prove him wrong with actual arguments, instead of using ad hominem?”.
Then there is somebody going into discussions with arguments (me) and you complain about that because it turns threads into discussions.

Behellagh.1468:

But he’s like the reoccurring heavy on a TV series that monologues before escaping, leaving the hero with something to think about. While his PoV is important as all player’s PoV are, I not sure what percentage of the active population (not sure if he’s truly active) share his opinion.

Well you know what it is. While lately I see more and more people complaining about the cash-shop (focus) itself what I also still see and used to see are complains about elements of the games that imho are there because of the cash-shop focus.

Like people complaining about the game being such a grind or no fun rewards or complaining that many thinks are only limited available or the focus on specific elements of the game and so on.

Imho many of those problems (the ones I react on) are directly or indirectly related to the cash-shop focus. I then give my idea, and am willing to go into details.

In a lot of cases you do get similar discussions (what is no problems if it are different people) like ‘they have to make money’ on what I answer that they can also make money with expansions. Or that there are no items in the cash-shop that you don’t need on what I say that it you do not need anything but it can still influence your game-play and so on and so on. So I do understand it if you get tired of reading the same over and over again but mostly it are discussion with different people.

Now if people complain about something in the game it is useful to know the cause of it. It’s like debating the many fatalities in traffic, but it only becomes useful if you know the reason. Else you might be reducing the speed-limit while the problem is that all traffic light are not functioning properly.

So I provide people with my vision on it and then it’s up to them do decide for themselves if thats also the cause for there ‘problem’.

Because it’s not the case for everybody’s game-play. I think overall WvW and PvP have not a lot of negative influence from the cash-shop focus. You could argue that they get less attention from Anet because it’s not a direct source of income (No real reason for WvW people to buy gems) but thats about it. The game-play as it is does not get effect a lot by the cash-shop focus. So it’s obviously not a problem for every player. Mainly for the PvE RP player and then still depending on there play-style.

I just give the input and am willing to talk about the subject when people react on it and then it’s up to the people to make up there own minds.

Behellagh.1468:

B2P is like the admission price to an amusement park. You can ride all the rides but that doesn’t mean you can get that stuffed unicorn at the ring toss for free.

Well in that case F2P would be better as it’s the same but without admission price? Obviously the comparison is not completely accurate from a business model perspective.

People with a sub would then get in every day but still need to pay for the hunicorn.

But to keep the same example, how much fun is then one of those grab machines if you don’t get the stuffed unicorn you manage to drop into the hole?

Note: the use of you is you in the plural sense and nobody specific.

Except I don’t see this “change” everyone is complaining about. Players are simply, finally, realizing that the gold to gem rate isn’t ever going to go down significantly due to overuse and ANet isn’t going to up the in game coin drop. They point out how to reduce the exchange rate buy converting bought gems into gold and everyone starts screaming as if this was some horrible conspiracy to turn the game into some F2P wannabe. It’s always been reliant on Gem sales but most of those upset by this sudden realization are finally facing the harsh truth. This isn’t the first Guild Wars. There aren’t going to be a string of reskins of the game every year under the guise of a “campaign”. That the longevity of the game is dependent on sales of gems, for cash. In Guild Wars if you wanted “purdy” skins you had to pay cold hard cash. Why is that so difficult to understand in Guild Wars 2? Why is that suddenly “ebil”?

Yes, yes, you all wanted expansions just like Guild Wars. But they denied considering or working on expansions since the game’s release. Even correcting NCSOFT’s own investor call statements. It’s not like they were hiding it.

And now, due to it’s overuse converting one way, the exchange rate is 3x higher than a year ago. And most of the crazy brain schemes to bend the game’s mechanics and reward system for “phat” loot have been thwarted for now, there is a dawning that there’s not enough hours in the day to earn gold for “free” cash shop items. It was never meant to be “free” indefinitely for everything. It was a way to supplement your cash for gems. What did you all think? Only stupid people bought gems with cash? Look up “tragedy of the commons”. That’s the Gem Exchange in a nutshell. So you all poor every last copper into gold to gem conversion every time something new pops up or return that you want. Then you complain you will never have enough gold to buy a precursor or weapon skin on the TP, all the while those players buying gems are converting them to the gold that you spent, that they then use to supplement their gold to buy those same precursors and skins on the TP.

Nope, you all steadfastly insist that everything offered in the game should be free with just game play. You all might as well order the tides back because it ain’t gonna happen. And it’s not because of China. The game has always been this, from day one. That fact that you all finally woke up to that fact is a sad statement how long people can play with blinders on.

Behellagh.1468:

Note: the use of you is you in the plural sense and nobody specific.

Except I don’t see this “change” everyone is complaining about. Players are simply, finally, realizing that the gold to gem rate isn’t ever going to go down significantly due to overuse and ANet isn’t going to up the in game coin drop. They point out how to reduce the exchange rate buy converting bought gems into gold and everyone starts screaming as if this was some horrible conspiracy to turn the game into some F2P wannabe. It’s always been reliant on Gem sales but most of those upset by this sudden realization are finally facing the harsh truth. This isn’t the first Guild Wars. There aren’t going to be a string of reskins of the game every year under the guise of a “campaign”. That the longevity of the game is dependent on sales of gems, for cash. In Guild Wars if you wanted “purdy” skins you had to pay cold hard cash. Why is that so difficult to understand in Guild Wars 2? Why is that suddenly “ebil”?

Yes, yes, you all wanted expansions just like Guild Wars. But they denied considering or working on expansions since the game’s release. Even correcting NCSOFT’s own investor call statements. It’s not like they were hiding it.

And now, due to it’s overuse converting one way, the exchange rate is 3x higher than a year ago. And most of the crazy brain schemes to bend the game’s mechanics and reward system for “phat” loot have been thwarted for now, there is a dawning that there’s not enough hours in the day to earn gold for “free” cash shop items. It was never meant to be “free” indefinitely for everything. It was a way to supplement your cash for gems. What did you all think? Only stupid people bought gems with cash? Look up “tragedy of the commons”. That’s the Gem Exchange in a nutshell. So you all poor every last copper into gold to gem conversion every time something new pops up or return that you want. Then you complain you will never have enough gold to buy a precursor or weapon skin on the TP, all the while those players buying gems are converting them to the gold that you spent, that they then use to supplement their gold to buy those same precursors and skins on the TP.

Nope, you all steadfastly insist that everything offered in the game should be free with just game play. You all might as well order the tides back because it ain’t gonna happen. And it’s not because of China. The game has always been this, from day one. That fact that you all finally woke up to that fact is a sad statement how long people can play with blinders on.

I think the complains are more that it’s negative for the game itself. Not the question if ArenaNet is doing it this way.

It’s better for the game itself if it’s available in the game in stead of in the cash-shop (to take your specific example).

The question is not what ArenaNet is doing but the complain is that it’s not good what they are doing.

Maybe more people do realize that now, that can be true.

You say people did think they could convert gold to gems to get what they want ‘for free’ but I think it’s more accurate to say they don’t want to have to convert gold to gems but just want to play for it ingame.

Devata.6589:

Behellagh.1468:

B2P is like the admission price to an amusement park. You can ride all the rides but that doesn’t mean you can get that stuffed unicorn at the ring toss for free.

Well in that case F2P would be better as it’s the same but without admission price? Obviously the comparison is not completely accurate from a business model perspective.

People with a sub would then get in every day but still need to pay for the hunicorn.

But to keep the same example, how much fun is then one of those grab machines if you don’t get the stuffed unicorn you manage to drop into the hole?

The F2Ps I’ve been exposed to lock playable content away behind pay walls. This includes areas, classes, races and normally start you out with an inventory capacity smaller than a lunch pale with only cash can expand into something useful since you can’t sell anywhere close to where you are and if you leave to do so then the content resets. So you are forced to either travel back to a vendor or bank (which costs) to save and sell your stuff or delete some stuff in the field to make room or buy more inventory for cash. Here you can cheaply get 80 slots per character and with the ability to TP or deposit collectibles or salvage and deposit collectibles, you don’t normally encounter a time when you have to take a break and trek to a bank.

So we pay up front for the game. We get all classes, races and access to all areas. Nothing in the gameplay mechanics is locked behind a pay wall. The rides in my analogy. But if you want that park T-shirt or chance to win that fluffy stuffed unicorn, yeah, that’ll cost extra.

Behellagh.1468:

Devata.6589:

Behellagh.1468:

B2P is like the admission price to an amusement park. You can ride all the rides but that doesn’t mean you can get that stuffed unicorn at the ring toss for free.

Well in that case F2P would be better as it’s the same but without admission price? Obviously the comparison is not completely accurate from a business model perspective.

People with a sub would then get in every day but still need to pay for the hunicorn.

But to keep the same example, how much fun is then one of those grab machines if you don’t get the stuffed unicorn you manage to drop into the hole?

The F2Ps I’ve been exposed to lock playable content away behind pay walls. This includes areas, classes, races and normally start you out with an inventory capacity smaller than a lunch pale with only cash can expand into something useful since you can’t sell anywhere close to where you are and if you leave to do so then the content resets. So you are forced to either travel back to a vendor or bank (which costs) to save and sell your stuff or delete some stuff in the field to make room or buy more inventory for cash. Here you can cheaply get 80 slots per character and with the ability to TP or deposit collectibles or salvage and deposit collectibles, you don’t normally encounter a time when you have to take a break and trek to a bank.

So we pay up front for the game. We get all classes, races and access to all areas. Nothing in the gameplay mechanics is locked behind a pay wall. The rides in my analogy. But if you want that park T-shirt or chance to win that fluffy stuffed unicorn, yeah, that’ll cost extra.

I have seen some F2P games where thats the case but also many where it isn’t.
There are more ways to do thinks, thats the case for F2P and B2P obviously. Not all are just as good (or bad) for the game.
However if you buy your rewards you remove the element of playing for it. That is why some people (including me) complain about how thats bad for the game.

I think you are mainly talking about how it currently works in GW2 and I (and I think most players) don’t really disagree with most of that. However I am talking about how that negatively effects the game.

You seem to be fine with that, other aren’t.

Devata.6589:

Behellagh.1468:

Devata.6589:

Behellagh.1468:

B2P is like the admission price to an amusement park. You can ride all the rides but that doesn’t mean you can get that stuffed unicorn at the ring toss for free.

Well in that case F2P would be better as it’s the same but without admission price? Obviously the comparison is not completely accurate from a business model perspective.

People with a sub would then get in every day but still need to pay for the hunicorn.

But to keep the same example, how much fun is then one of those grab machines if you don’t get the stuffed unicorn you manage to drop into the hole?

The F2Ps I’ve been exposed to lock playable content away behind pay walls. This includes areas, classes, races and normally start you out with an inventory capacity smaller than a lunch pale with only cash can expand into something useful since you can’t sell anywhere close to where you are and if you leave to do so then the content resets. So you are forced to either travel back to a vendor or bank (which costs) to save and sell your stuff or delete some stuff in the field to make room or buy more inventory for cash. Here you can cheaply get 80 slots per character and with the ability to TP or deposit collectibles or salvage and deposit collectibles, you don’t normally encounter a time when you have to take a break and trek to a bank.

So we pay up front for the game. We get all classes, races and access to all areas. Nothing in the gameplay mechanics is locked behind a pay wall. The rides in my analogy. But if you want that park T-shirt or chance to win that fluffy stuffed unicorn, yeah, that’ll cost extra.

I have seen some F2P games where thats the case but also many where it isn’t.
There are more ways to do thinks, thats the case for F2P and B2P obviously. Not all are just as good (or bad) for the game.
However if you buy your rewards you remove the element of playing for it. That is why some people (including me) complain about how thats bad for the game.

I think you are mainly talking about how it currently works in GW2 and I (and I think most players) don’t really disagree with most of that. However I am talking about how that negatively effects the game.

You seem to be fine with that, other aren’t.

There are also sub games that lock items and races behind a pay wall and a cash shop also.

The CS in GW2 doesn’t bother me at all. What do I have to buy from the CS, other than cosmetic items, that I can’t find in game? This is the key, there is nothing in the CS, that I have to buy. Heck, I can craft all the dyes I want with cooking.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Devata.6589:

Behellagh.1468:

Devata.6589:

Behellagh.1468:

B2P is like the admission price to an amusement park. You can ride all the rides but that doesn’t mean you can get that stuffed unicorn at the ring toss for free.

Well in that case F2P would be better as it’s the same but without admission price? Obviously the comparison is not completely accurate from a business model perspective.

People with a sub would then get in every day but still need to pay for the hunicorn.

But to keep the same example, how much fun is then one of those grab machines if you don’t get the stuffed unicorn you manage to drop into the hole?

The F2Ps I’ve been exposed to lock playable content away behind pay walls. This includes areas, classes, races and normally start you out with an inventory capacity smaller than a lunch pale with only cash can expand into something useful since you can’t sell anywhere close to where you are and if you leave to do so then the content resets. So you are forced to either travel back to a vendor or bank (which costs) to save and sell your stuff or delete some stuff in the field to make room or buy more inventory for cash. Here you can cheaply get 80 slots per character and with the ability to TP or deposit collectibles or salvage and deposit collectibles, you don’t normally encounter a time when you have to take a break and trek to a bank.

So we pay up front for the game. We get all classes, races and access to all areas. Nothing in the gameplay mechanics is locked behind a pay wall. The rides in my analogy. But if you want that park T-shirt or chance to win that fluffy stuffed unicorn, yeah, that’ll cost extra.

I have seen some F2P games where thats the case but also many where it isn’t.
There are more ways to do thinks, thats the case for F2P and B2P obviously. Not all are just as good (or bad) for the game.
However if you buy your rewards you remove the element of playing for it. That is why some people (including me) complain about how thats bad for the game.

I think you are mainly talking about how it currently works in GW2 and I (and I think most players) don’t really disagree with most of that. However I am talking about how that negatively effects the game.

You seem to be fine with that, other aren’t.

There are also sub games that lock items and races behind a pay wall and a cash shop also.

The CS in GW2 doesn’t bother me at all. What do I have to buy from the CS, other than cosmetic items, that I can’t find in game? This is the key, there is nothing in the CS, that I have to buy. Heck, I can craft all the dyes I want with cooking.

Uhh yeah thats what I said “There are more ways to do thinks, thats the case for F2P and B2P obviously. Not all are just as good (or bad) for the game.”. Everything can be done in multiple ways but fact is that if you focus on the cash-shop to make money you need to get cash-shop stuff to sell. If you focus on expansions (or subs in your example) you don’t.

And here we go again.. No you do not NEED anything. It’s a game so everything is optional. If it effects your game-play depends on your personal game-play. If you like to hunt down / collect mini’s thats a game-play element that now it gone. To keep it to the mini example again. Maybe no problem for your preferred game-play but a problem for many other’s preferred game-play. Especially since this game is all about cosmetics.

Devata.6589:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Devata.6589:

Behellagh.1468:

Devata.6589:

Behellagh.1468:

B2P is like the admission price to an amusement park. You can ride all the rides but that doesn’t mean you can get that stuffed unicorn at the ring toss for free.

Well in that case F2P would be better as it’s the same but without admission price? Obviously the comparison is not completely accurate from a business model perspective.

People with a sub would then get in every day but still need to pay for the hunicorn.

But to keep the same example, how much fun is then one of those grab machines if you don’t get the stuffed unicorn you manage to drop into the hole?

The F2Ps I’ve been exposed to lock playable content away behind pay walls. This includes areas, classes, races and normally start you out with an inventory capacity smaller than a lunch pale with only cash can expand into something useful since you can’t sell anywhere close to where you are and if you leave to do so then the content resets. So you are forced to either travel back to a vendor or bank (which costs) to save and sell your stuff or delete some stuff in the field to make room or buy more inventory for cash. Here you can cheaply get 80 slots per character and with the ability to TP or deposit collectibles or salvage and deposit collectibles, you don’t normally encounter a time when you have to take a break and trek to a bank.

So we pay up front for the game. We get all classes, races and access to all areas. Nothing in the gameplay mechanics is locked behind a pay wall. The rides in my analogy. But if you want that park T-shirt or chance to win that fluffy stuffed unicorn, yeah, that’ll cost extra.

I have seen some F2P games where thats the case but also many where it isn’t.
There are more ways to do thinks, thats the case for F2P and B2P obviously. Not all are just as good (or bad) for the game.
However if you buy your rewards you remove the element of playing for it. That is why some people (including me) complain about how thats bad for the game.

I think you are mainly talking about how it currently works in GW2 and I (and I think most players) don’t really disagree with most of that. However I am talking about how that negatively effects the game.

You seem to be fine with that, other aren’t.

There are also sub games that lock items and races behind a pay wall and a cash shop also.

The CS in GW2 doesn’t bother me at all. What do I have to buy from the CS, other than cosmetic items, that I can’t find in game? This is the key, there is nothing in the CS, that I have to buy. Heck, I can craft all the dyes I want with cooking.

Uhh yeah thats what I said “There are more ways to do thinks, thats the case for F2P and B2P obviously. Not all are just as good (or bad) for the game.”. Everything can be done in multiple ways but fact is that if you focus on the cash-shop to make money you need to get cash-shop stuff to sell. If you focus on expansions (or subs in your example) you don’t.

And here we go again.. No you do not NEED anything. It’s a game so everything is optional. If it effects your game-play depends on your personal game-play. If you like to hunt down / collect mini’s thats a game-play element that now it gone. To keep it to the mini example again. Maybe no problem for your preferred game-play but a problem for many other’s preferred game-play. Especially since this game is all about cosmetics.

If people want the cosmetics, then they know they have to pay. That doesn’t affect the ABILITY to play or being competitive in play. They are not equivalent. The game is NOT about cosmetics – it is about choice your choice on HOW you want to play or look. You are defining the game that way, not A.Net or myself.

As I said, that is all extra and does not affect the way the game plays. YOUR CHOICE – isn’t that what you want?

Dusty Moon.4382:

If people want the cosmetics, then they know they have to pay. That doesn’t affect the ABILITY to play or being competitive in play. They are not equivalent. The game is NOT about cosmetics – it is about choice your choice on HOW you want to play or look. You are defining the game that way, not A.Net or myself.

As I said, that is all extra and does not affect the way the game plays. YOUR CHOICE – isn’t that what you want?

You make the mistake of assuming all people play it to be competitive. No you don’t need it to play. But I do not see how that makes it better? As I see now, you are a competitive player so I think you are heavely against P2W items in some games but you know.. you don’t need them to play. They are only useful to be competitive what not everybody cares about in an MMO. So would you then also be fine with P2W items?

“The game is NOT about cosmetics – it is about choice your choice on HOW you want to play or look. You are defining the game that way, not A.Net or myself. "
Funny you say you don’t define it as being about cosmetics, because you do it that the sentence before it.

“it is about choice your choice on HOW you want to play or [b]look[b/]”. Oow and how is buying a cash-shop item ‘playing the game’?

I am also pretty sure Anet did make a statement like that, anyway the main item to go for in the game (legendary) is a mainly cosmetic thing. That by itself says enough. And of course everybody playing GW2 can see that it’s heavely cosmetic focused.

“As I said, that is all extra and does not affect the way the game plays.” It’s only extra to YOU and it only does not affect they way YOU play the game. For many people it’s the main thing to go for in an MMO and by taking it out of the game or making it a gold-grind it is effecting there game-play.

Why are people like you not willing to also think about other people preferred game-play? Or do you really not understand that an MMO RPG can be played in many different ways, not all being your way. I am not asking for cosmetic items to be replaced with P2W items while it would likely effect my preferred game-play (in an mmo) less. Because I do also think about your preferred game-play.

Maybe you just don’t understand that your way is not the only way, I don’t know.

I do not have the choice to hunt down many of those items in the world. I don’t have the choice to directly work to pretty much anything in this game without being required to have a gold-grind to get that item. It’s all stuff that you consider extra but for me and many with me being competitive in an MMO is extra. If I want to be competitive I prefer a FPS.

This is a Role Playing Game after all. So by that definition alone being competitive comes second.

I am completely ok with pay to win in a competitive environment as it is prevalent in all competitions irl as well. People place value on winning. Searching for and paying for advantages with in the rules is by nature competitive and is ok by me.

As for cosmetics, there is a value to that as well. Sometimes a product is inferior/same in performance but has better looks and charges a premium. If I want that look to my personal items then I would have to either make my own or buy. In either case there is always an inherent cost due to the value people place on visual design

Status symbols are a part of human society and the digital realm is no exception to the rule. Design is all about the looks or what the design represents so the difference between atoms and pixels is irrelevant.

lordkrall is the biggest fanboy ever. You defend Anet for everything! Come on man, be realistic. Everything they do isn’t perfect. Stop defending them from every criticism. Fanboys make games worse, because then the developers don’t think anything is wrong and they won’t improve the game.

lordkrall.7241:

The game-play is improved when more resources are spent on improving it. Those resources are dependent on money.

Wrong! Throwing money at something that’s not enjoyable isn’t improving it. It just supports more bad decision making by Anet. Only a handful of people left will support them, while the rest leave the game. How is that helping GW2? It’s not.

nexxe.7081:

lordkrall is the biggest fanboy ever. You defend Anet for everything! Come on man, be realistic. Everything they do isn’t perfect. Stop defending them from every criticism. Fanboys make games worse, because then the developers don’t think anything is wrong and they won’t improve the game.

There is a difference between someone who is rational and thinks through things and someone who is a blind fanboy. Lordkrall is extremely rational in his thinking… Just because someone is a fan of the game doesn’t mean their opinion is invalid – that is stupid reasoning because it would basically mean that the only people who should decide what should happen are people who don’t like the game – and everytime something happened to make them happy the game would be bad again because they would be fans…

Here’s an idea – if you are going to criticise the game be CONSTRUCTIVE about it. Constructive criticism involves acknowledging what is done well, and what you think isn’t done well – while acknowledging that it is YOUR opinion – and then proving what you think could be a good solution. Any non-constructive criticism is not worth listening to.

dodgycookies.4562:

I am completely ok with pay to win in a competitive environment as it is prevalent in all competitions irl as well. People place value on winning. Searching for and paying for advantages with in the rules is by nature competitive and is ok by me.

As for cosmetics, there is a value to that as well. Sometimes a product is inferior/same in performance but has better looks and charges a premium. If I want that look to my personal items then I would have to either make my own or buy. In either case there is always an inherent cost due to the value people place on visual design

Status symbols are a part of human society and the digital realm is no exception to the rule. Design is all about the looks or what the design represents so the difference between atoms and pixels is irrelevant.

Yeah however this is a game so you buy the game and then should be able to play for the rewards. The higher value item drops from the harder to kill mob / boss dragon.

So your right, just forgot to translate it to the game world.

nexxe.7081:

Wrong! Throwing money at something that’s not enjoyable isn’t improving it. It just supports more bad decision making by Anet. Only a handful of people left will support them, while the rest leave the game. How is that helping GW2? It’s not.

Not enjoyable for you.
And I am rather sure that you don’t actually spend any money on it, so I don’t really see why you are so upset when people that actually DOES enjoy the game and the content spend money on it, in order to improve it.

lordkrall.7241:

nexxe.7081:

Wrong! Throwing money at something that’s not enjoyable isn’t improving it. It just supports more bad decision making by Anet. Only a handful of people left will support them, while the rest leave the game. How is that helping GW2? It’s not.

Not enjoyable for you.
And I am rather sure that you don’t actually spend any money on it, so I don’t really see why you are so upset when people that actually DOES enjoy the game and the content spend money on it, in order to improve it.

Not just me, but the majority of people too. We actually wanted to enjoy GW2, but the designers listened to the minority, and made the game less enjoyable for everyone else. The game went from overflows to merged servers, and your logic is to keep supporting bad decisions by giving them more money! Brilliant.

nexxe.7081:

Not just me, but the majority of people too. We actually wanted to enjoy GW2, but the designers listened to the minority, and made the game less enjoyable for everyone else. The game went from overflows to merged servers, and your logic is to keep supporting bad decisions by giving them more money! Brilliant.

The majority based on what survey?
Not even the majority of the forums agree with you, and the forums is very far from even close to a majority of the actual player base.

Just because people disagree with you doesn’t make them a minority.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

nexxe.7081:

lordkrall is the biggest fanboy ever. You defend Anet for everything! Come on man, be realistic. Everything they do isn’t perfect. Stop defending them from every criticism. Fanboys make games worse, because then the developers don’t think anything is wrong and they won’t improve the game.

There is a difference between someone who is rational and thinks through things and someone who is a blind fanboy. Lordkrall is extremely rational in his thinking… Just because someone is a fan of the game doesn’t mean their opinion is invalid – that is stupid reasoning because it would basically mean that the only people who should decide what should happen are people who don’t like the game – and everytime something happened to make them happy the game would be bad again because they would be fans…

Here’s an idea – if you are going to criticise the game be CONSTRUCTIVE about it. Constructive criticism involves acknowledging what is done well, and what you think isn’t done well – while acknowledging that it is YOUR opinion – and then proving what you think could be a good solution. Any non-constructive criticism is not worth listening to.

I won’t talk about anybody specific and you are right it does not matter if somebody id a fan or not. Everybody can have good reasoning.

But lets take a random discussion of me as example:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/KongZhong-Details-about-GW2-China/page/2#post4076768

If I say something and the reaction is totally not based on what I said to in that way tackle what I am saying (by disproving what I never said), then it starts to look like making excuses in stead of rational arguing.

For the buy price, i would say that the delivered product is pretty decent, not perfect by any means, but definitely worth the cost. I appreciate the fact that there is an in-game choice if i want a slightly better experience at a higher price while keeping the baseline product a great value. Whether they could achieve this with gw2 as f2p is debatable and would require their analytics data to really answer.

Devata.6589:

dodgycookies.4562:

I am completely ok with pay to win in a competitive environment as it is prevalent in all competitions irl as well. People place value on winning. Searching for and paying for advantages with in the rules is by nature competitive and is ok by me.

As for cosmetics, there is a value to that as well. Sometimes a product is inferior/same in performance but has better looks and charges a premium. If I want that look to my personal items then I would have to either make my own or buy. In either case there is always an inherent cost due to the value people place on visual design

Status symbols are a part of human society and the digital realm is no exception to the rule. Design is all about the looks or what the design represents so the difference between atoms and pixels is irrelevant.

Yeah however this is a game so you buy the game and then should be able to play for the rewards. The higher value item drops from the harder to kill mob / boss dragon.

So your right, just forgot to translate it to the game world.

I would say you should be primarily playing for the experience rather than the rewards. Rewards are just an extra bonus to make your experience feel satisfying. The sense of accomplishment is great, but really only pros should be playing solely for rewards. As they say amateurs: pay to play while pros get paid to play.

As for rewards, in most endeavors in life you are playing for rewards within the grasp of your own skill/resources. If you want better rewards than what you can currently reach you usually have to up your skill (mainly through time or paying for training) or increase your stock of resources buy purchasing more.

dodgycookies.4562:

For the buy price, i would say that the delivered product is pretty decent, not perfect by any means, but definitely worth the cost. I appreciate the fact that there is an in-game choice if i want a slightly better experience at a higher price while keeping the baseline product a great value. Whether they could achieve this with gw2 as f2p is debatable and would require their analytics data to really answer.

Devata.6589:

dodgycookies.4562:

I am completely ok with pay to win in a competitive environment as it is prevalent in all competitions irl as well. People place value on winning. Searching for and paying for advantages with in the rules is by nature competitive and is ok by me.

As for cosmetics, there is a value to that as well. Sometimes a product is inferior/same in performance but has better looks and charges a premium. If I want that look to my personal items then I would have to either make my own or buy. In either case there is always an inherent cost due to the value people place on visual design

Status symbols are a part of human society and the digital realm is no exception to the rule. Design is all about the looks or what the design represents so the difference between atoms and pixels is irrelevant.

Yeah however this is a game so you buy the game and then should be able to play for the rewards. The higher value item drops from the harder to kill mob / boss dragon.

So your right, just forgot to translate it to the game world.

I would say you should be primarily playing for the experience rather than the rewards. Rewards are just an extra bonus to make your experience feel satisfying. The sense of accomplishment is great, but really only pros should be playing solely for rewards. As they say amateurs: pay to play while pros get paid to play.

As for rewards, in most endeavors in life you are playing for rewards within the grasp of your own skill/resources. If you want better rewards than what you can currently reach you usually have to up your skill (mainly through time or paying for training) or increase your stock of resources buy purchasing more.

We are not asking for anything to be free. Just let us pay by buying expansions.

In fact playing for the reward is part of the fun and also gives the reward more value.

“If you want better rewards than what you can currently reach you usually have to up your skill” You can’t really.

“increase your stock of resources buy purchasing more.” We are playing a game. Or trying to. I do not consider buying items playing.

I stay with my previous statement that you forget to translate it to a game-world.

I did not get a game to be able to increase the stock of resources by purchasing ingame items. I got it to play the game and part of that (for me) is working toward rewards in the game.

I am fine with expansions. As long as they keep the cash shop in the game for choice and for those who are willing to further spend for a better experience.

The skill part i was referring to can be 2 parts.
1)There are plenty of things in game that are skill locked for many “unskilled” players such as liadri rewards, spvp rewards, or any of the harder dungeon rewards. In those cases people do need to up their skill if such things are currently unobtainable for them.

2) Skill in playing the TP for gold which to some people is fun and rewarding apparently.

I, like everyone else, bought a game to play for entertainment. I understand people like playing for rewards, who doesn’t. But again your rewards are limited by your skill to accomplish in game tasks or earn in game gold, or your resources outside the game in order to turn cash into gems or gold.

I do not mind not being able to obtain rewards, as some of them are more time i am willing to commit or are more expensive than what i would value them as. But i do not mind those who do put the time in or spend the money to buy such items. There is already plenty of other rewards in the game i have yet to get and am enjoying the process of obtaining those.

“Yakslapper” title, I am coming for you =P

lordkrall.7241:

nexxe.7081:

Not just me, but the majority of people too. We actually wanted to enjoy GW2, but the designers listened to the minority, and made the game less enjoyable for everyone else. The game went from overflows to merged servers, and your logic is to keep supporting bad decisions by giving them more money! Brilliant.

The majority based on what survey?
Not even the majority of the forums agree with you, and the forums is very far from even close to a majority of the actual player base.

Just because people disagree with you doesn’t make them a minority.

You don’t need a survey. Merging populations with Megaservers is all you need to know that the population dropped off drastically. If it was stable, no mergers would be needed. If it was growing, they would add new servers.

The majority left, because they didn’t like GW2 and how it was being developed over the last year.

Devata.6589:

From there statement you could not say that the cash-shop would have been the focus or it would be the predominant source.

10/11/2010

“We’re going to try to do some alternative business models, like microtransactions, where we sell totally optional clothing items and things, you know, we’ll go into more details on microtransactions down the road. We’ll try to sell some stuff that can help us out and are cool things that players might want, but they don’t need to play the game. own the road. We’ll try to sell some stuff that can help us out and are cool things that players might want, but they don’t need to play the game…

…You know whatever additional content we release down the road, be it by expansions or content packs, we don’t really know how that’s going to work yet,"

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/feature/4603/page/1

You mean where, almost two years prior to launch, Anet stated that they were going to try microtransactions as a business model ? Where they said that they didn’t even know how content packs would work but that they knew that they were going to try the microtransaction business model ? They may not have used the word, “predominant,” but they did say, “microtransaction business model,” not, "microtransactions as a filler to augment expansion sales.

And…. (note that he says buy it, “once,” not, “buy it once and then buy the expansions in order to play the whole game.”

09/2011

“Games like Guild Wars 2where you buy it once and play it for free. Inevitably, it is going to be the customers that decide all that. The developers are just literally doing what the customers are willing to pay for. "

http://tap-repeatedly.com/2011/09/exclusive-interview-arenanets-colin-johanson/

Even so, they have said a lot of different, sometimes contradicting, things at different times so I totally understand if a given player got one impression from one interview while other players developed a different opinion based on a different company statement.

Devata.6589:

You know I never like it if people tell untruths to get there right

Neither do I…

Devata.6589:

So with the knowledge of how GW1 worked and what they said there is no reason to believe cash-shop would be the main focus or predominant source for income. In fact looking with all the information you had it would make sense that expansions would be the ‘predominant source for income’ as that is what made ArenaNet big with GW1.

Except that they have made statements that implied as much.

By the way that quote is an example of what you say you do not like. You say, “In fact,” when the truth is, “in your opinion.”

Devata.6589:

I am happy to see people here trying to proof that mini’s in the cash-shop are in fact better for the game-play. Because it shows they are not trying to be objective about it but trying to make up excuses (what was not needed if it would be better for the game-play in any way). One person who starts about how money can make new game-play.. well that does not say anything about how the mini’s in the cash-shop are better for that part of the game-play itself.

Another example of that thing you do not like. I made no such effort to prove anything of the sort.

Devata.6589:

You say that else people might not get drops they do not care about what is just well the worse excuse. As if, if mini’s would drop something else would not drop anymore.??? What make no sense whatsoever. So those people who like those other thinks could still get there drop and sell the mini’s got that drop. While in fact now there are people who do not get that sort of drops they like because they are not in the game in the cash-shop.

Another one of those things you say you do not like. I did not say what you claim. This may be a language issue so my apologies if such is the case but, “people might not get drops they do not care about,” means the opposite of what you claim due to the double negative. Drop either, “not,” and your quote captures the essence of my statement.

If a mini-pet takes up a slot on a drop chart then generating that numerical result on the drop chart means getting the mini-instead of something else.

Devata.6589:

And yes at least most items that drop should be tradable. Including mini’s. Maybe you want have a select few that are account-bound but by far most drops should be tradable.

Personally I do not care for account or soul bound items. I prefer to have the option to trade anything that I get as a drop that I might not desire to someone who does desire it but couldn’t get it as a drop for whatever reason. But, I understand others’ preferences do not match my own and think that a middle ground of some sort is reasonable.

nexxe.7081:

You don’t need a survey. Merging populations with Megaservers is all you need to know that the population dropped off drastically. If it was stable, no mergers would be needed. If it was growing, they would add new servers.

The majority left, because they didn’t like GW2 and how it was being developed over the last year.

Oh, I suppose Elder Scrolls Online lost the majority of their population before the game was even released then? Because I seem to recall them having mega-servers from day one.

You have no proof whatsoever as to how many have left and for what reason they left.
People have been complaining about the lack of activity in zones for quite some time. ArenaNet tried to fix that issue by creating the MegaServers (which is basically a variant of what people have been suggestion for those empty zones (underflows)).

I still see loads of people everywhere. And the queues in WvW are still rather long at times. Which would suggest that there are still quite many people playing.

The forums are also very lively, which would suggest that there are quite many people still active (unless they are silly and cant let go and keep spamming the forums without actually playing).

nexxe.7081:

lordkrall.7241:

nexxe.7081:

Not just me, but the majority of people too. We actually wanted to enjoy GW2, but the designers listened to the minority, and made the game less enjoyable for everyone else. The game went from overflows to merged servers, and your logic is to keep supporting bad decisions by giving them more money! Brilliant.

The majority based on what survey?
Not even the majority of the forums agree with you, and the forums is very far from even close to a majority of the actual player base.

Just because people disagree with you doesn’t make them a minority.

You don’t need a survey. Merging populations with Megaservers is all you need to know that the population dropped off drastically. If it was stable, no mergers would be needed. If it was growing, they would add new servers.

The majority left, because they didn’t like GW2 and how it was being developed over the last year.

MMO developers know how this works – when a game is released you get a large number of players, this number is undoubtedly going to go down over time as the players who hop from game to game to game leave. They know that his happens, most MMO’s out there have server merges after a year or so as the games population settles a bit. The megaserver is not a server merge, it is not an ‘oh no we have no players so lets just have one big server’, it’s a way of ensuring that players are always in populated maps – it has nothing to do with the games overall population which will fluctuate with releases. The megaserver takes away a need to add more servers. If you add more servers you don’t fix the problem of a lot of maps being devoid of players, the playerbase on each server is always going to be spread out – that is what the megaserver seeks to fix.

The “majority left”, what majority? Do you have stats to back this up? No you don’t. Last time I checked the game is still doing well and especially when there is a new release put out there are a lot of players playing. It’s a B2P game, they don’t expect or need players to be playing every week or every month – this is why they’re using the content release model that they use.

Also your claims that Anet have catered to the minority amuse me. Ascended gear most certainly did not cater to the minority, players form GW1 who have been fans of the series for a long time tend to be proponents of horizontal, rather than vertical, progression. The amount of vertical progression that has been put in game most certainly caters to the masses.

It seems to me that the basis of your claims is that the forums represent a majority of players. This is absolutely not true, the forums represent a very small fraction of the games player base – and they are the vocal minority. The majority of players are not complaining on the forums, but are instead playing the game, that’s a simple truth for you right there. The complaints you see on the forum, while frequently valid, are just a vocal minority, you can’t use the forums as an indication of the playerbase and their opinions as a whole.

dodgycookies.4562:

I am fine with expansions. As long as they keep the cash shop in the game for choice and for those who are willing to further spend for a better experience.

The skill part i was referring to can be 2 parts.
1)There are plenty of things in game that are skill locked for many “unskilled” players such as liadri rewards, spvp rewards, or any of the harder dungeon rewards. In those cases people do need to up their skill if such things are currently unobtainable for them.

2) Skill in playing the TP for gold which some people is fun and rewarding apparently.

I, like everyone else, bought a game to play for entertainment. I understand people like playing for rewards, who doesn’t. But again your rewards are limited by your skill to accomplish in game tasks or earn in game gold, or your resources outside the game in order to turn cash into gems or gold.

I do not mind not being able to obtain rewards, as some of them are more time i am willing to commit or are more expensive than what i would value them as. But i do not mind those who do put the time in or spend the money to buy such items.

I would want them to remove most of the cash-shop increasing the choice and experience for everybody in the game itself. It is however nice of you to agree that apparently the cash-shop does take part of that out of the game by stating you get can it by buying items from the cash-shop.

I did think we disagreed on that but we didn’t, you simply are fine with that.

There are not many of those ‘skill rewards’, liadri is likely one of the only ones while I say that pretty much all rewards (item) should be obtainable that way. And as long as the items are not account-bound they will still end up on the TP so if you prefer to grind gold you can still get them that way.

“But again your rewards are limited by your skill to accomplish in game tasks or earn in game gold” So buying gold with cash or running around with a zerg grinding gold equals skills?

No it turns the game into a boring gold-grind. You want anything? No problem just grind gold. That’s not skills my friend.

You see it’s that gold-grind in this game that I see as one of the negative side-effects of the cash-shop. Again you seem to agree with the effect (cash-shop / gold-grind), you just don’t find the required gold-grind to get most things a problem. In fact you see it as skill.

So it looks like we agree in most parts and how the cash-shop effects the game, just not as what is considered fun, or skill.

In my opinion the business model should not effect the game, anything in the game, the game-play or design-decisions. As soon as it does it’s bad for the game.

Devata.6589:

I would want them to remove most of the cash-shop increasing the choice and experience for everybody in the game itself. It is however nice of you to agree that apparently the cash-shop does take part of that out of the game by stating you get can it by buying items from the cash-shop.

And how would you finance your beloved expansion if you remove most of their income?
You keep shouting about how much the gem-store sucks and how they should remove it and add expansions instead, but you refuse to actually suggest how they would get money to develop said expansion without the money gained from the gem-store.

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

From there statement you could not say that the cash-shop would have been the focus or it would be the predominant source.

10/11/2010

“We’re going to try to do some alternative business models, like microtransactions, where we sell totally optional clothing items and things, you know, we’ll go into more details on microtransactions down the road. We’ll try to sell some stuff that can help us out and are cool things that players might want, but they don’t need to play the game. own the road. We’ll try to sell some stuff that can help us out and are cool things that players might want, but they don’t need to play the game…

…You know whatever additional content we release down the road, be it by expansions or content packs, we don’t really know how that’s going to work yet,"

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/feature/4603/page/1

You mean where, almost two years prior to launch, Anet stated that they were going to try microtransactions as a business model ? Where they said that they didn’t even know how content packs would work but that they knew that they were going to try the microtransaction business model ? They may not have used the word, “predominant,” but they did say, “microtransaction business model,” not, "microtransactions as a filler to augment expansion sales.

And…. (note that he says buy it, “once,” not, “buy it once and then buy the expansions in order to play the whole game.”

09/2011

“Games like Guild Wars 2where you buy it once and play it for free. Inevitably, it is going to be the customers that decide all that. The developers are just literally doing what the customers are willing to pay for. "

http://tap-repeatedly.com/2011/09/exclusive-interview-arenanets-colin-johanson/

Even so, they have said a lot of different, sometimes contradicting, things at different times so I totally understand if a given player got one impression from one interview while other players developed a different opinion based on a different company statement.

So where did they exactly say they would use the cash-shop or micro-transaction business model?
I would say this statement is so vague you can’t get any information out of it but if anything it would point towards the micro-transaction as being just one of the many thinks they try. Far from being the way they would generate there income.

I mean literally the sentence you quoted yourself “We’re going to try to do some alternative business models, like microtransactions,” This to you sounds like. “yeah micro-transactions are the way we are going make the money? To me it sounds like they are tossing around with some ways to earn some (additional?) money. The only thing that is for sure is that the game will be B2P. So you got B2P for sure and next to that they are looking into some other models as well.

It’s not contradicting to what they said in the interview I liked before. It’s similar maybe more vague (not strange a year ahead) but pretty similar. However it does not say they will use micro-transactions to earn there money. Far from it.

About the buy it once.. yeah you buy the game once? And then you can decide.. again I don’t see how this points to the one or the other. I Buy the game and then decide if I want to later by an expansion. How does that not fit? I do not expect people to buy the game multiple times. Colin is talking about sub-models where people pay a subscription every month vs GW2 where you buy the game once and then it’s free. That does not mean expansions are free or there won’t be expansions or the cash-shop will then generate the money.