Guild Wars 2

Ashen.2907:

I did check your post history. You are one of those to whom I referred in the quoted post.

I thought so, seeing as how I’ve made quite a few posts recently. Frankly, I wouldn’t be surprised if I’m not the only one new to the forums.

Sokia.3710:

Ashen.2907:

I did check your post history. You are one of those to whom I referred in the quoted post.

I thought so, seeing as how I’ve made quite a few posts recently. Frankly, I wouldn’t be surprised if I’m not the only one new to the forums.

You’re not. I’ve looked.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . some people are calling the other changes also negative. Primarily the people seeing rangers are no longer always free bags in WvW . . .

To be honest, being a ranger was pretty hard in WvWvW mode. They are decent at assaulting and defending towers, and Barrage can hit siege which some other professions can’t easily hit. But, other than that, they weren’t particularly great.

Rangers were pretty good at roaming, though, seeing as how you could get some decent mobility with greatsword and you could 1vCamp by getting everything to attack your pet.

Sokia.3710:

Rangers were pretty good at roaming, though, seeing as how you could get some decent mobility with greatsword and you could 1vCamp by getting everything to attack your pet.

That describes partly how I played on slow nights – scouting and camp disruption It’s a little easier now since Axe got its buff.

Vayne.8563:

When you’re already angry about something, you tend to exaggerate it’s importance in your mind. Everyone has had big fights with a loved one about little things that don’t matter.

I think part of the backlash of this patch comes from an overall discontent with part of the community, who was looking for a reason to attack.

End of story, most of what’s happening. And some people want to spread their dislike of the game unto others, and have come to use this minor discontent as a tool towards that end, blowing it all out of proportion, as if this patch was truly the most game changing and player alienating ever, which clearly, it isn’t.

Tons of malicious posts as well. It’s super easy to see through many of these poster’s agendas as they type their different “reasons” for hating the game, and why everybody should follow them elsewhere towards a gaming utopia where developers “really care” for their opinion (I actually believe ANet cares about this game and its players, but who can please 100% of players with so many types of approaches, personality types, and preferences?)

The loved ones relationship comparison is thus very apt, and sadly so.

Labjax.2465:

Vayne.8563:

I think part of the backlash of this patch comes from an overall discontent with part of the community, who was looking for a reason to attack.

I don’t see any reason why the answer needs to be so deepset. People got pretty upset about the trait changes and quite a few are still complaining about it, or have left the game over it.

This patch looks like more of the same: Trying to improve the experiences for newbies at the cost of what veterans have grown to love.

I think the discontent over stuff like this tends to look very sporadic and temperamental for a couple of reasons. 1) Most of the people who are genuinely angry about it are just going to leave. They aren’t going to stick around complaining until the end of time. 2) The people who stick around may just give up after a bit and give it some time – you only have so much energy to get bothered about things in your life.

Traits were in no way connected to newbs, but to statisfy certain specific group of whiners (and unfortunately they listened to them)

MikaHR.1978:

Labjax.2465:

Vayne.8563:

I think part of the backlash of this patch comes from an overall discontent with part of the community, who was looking for a reason to attack.

I don’t see any reason why the answer needs to be so deepset. People got pretty upset about the trait changes and quite a few are still complaining about it, or have left the game over it.

This patch looks like more of the same: Trying to improve the experiences for newbies at the cost of what veterans have grown to love.

I think the discontent over stuff like this tends to look very sporadic and temperamental for a couple of reasons. 1) Most of the people who are genuinely angry about it are just going to leave. They aren’t going to stick around complaining until the end of time. 2) The people who stick around may just give up after a bit and give it some time – you only have so much energy to get bothered about things in your life.

Traits were in no way connected to newbs, but to statisfy certain specific group of whiners (and unfortunately they listened to them)

no one asked for trait locking.
some people suggested they should make NEW SKILLS that you could get through gameplay, opposed to only being able to pay 25 skill points (like the universal toxic heal) and that could act as horizontal progression.

They then decided to apply this to traits instead, because traits are easier to create. (some dev actually said this in an interview or something)They decided to apply it to old existing traits, and not just new ones, as a surprise twist, but most likely because they felt leveling needed more progression.
it was not a requested feature.

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

Labjax.2465:

Vayne.8563:

I think part of the backlash of this patch comes from an overall discontent with part of the community, who was looking for a reason to attack.

I don’t see any reason why the answer needs to be so deepset. People got pretty upset about the trait changes and quite a few are still complaining about it, or have left the game over it.

This patch looks like more of the same: Trying to improve the experiences for newbies at the cost of what veterans have grown to love.

I think the discontent over stuff like this tends to look very sporadic and temperamental for a couple of reasons. 1) Most of the people who are genuinely angry about it are just going to leave. They aren’t going to stick around complaining until the end of time. 2) The people who stick around may just give up after a bit and give it some time – you only have so much energy to get bothered about things in your life.

Traits were in no way connected to newbs, but to statisfy certain specific group of whiners (and unfortunately they listened to them)

no one asked for trait locking.
some people suggested they should make NEW SKILLS that you could get through gameplay, opposed to only being able to pay 25 skill points (like the universal toxic heal) and that could act as horizontal progression.

They then decided to apply this to traits instead, because traits are easier to create. (some dev actually said this in an interview or something)They decided to apply it to old existing traits, and not just new ones, as a surprise twist, but most likely because they felt leveling needed more progression.
it was not a requested feature.

It was requested feature because a lot of people whined that reading a manual is crap and they should make it like GW1 skill hunting (becasue that was “awesome”)

It was a requested feature because a lot of people whined that "character is “complete” at level 30 and theres nothing after that"

That one WAS direct from feedback of the “community” and falls on back of the “community”

Enjoy.

Vayne.8563:

When you’re already angry about something, you tend to exaggerate it’s importance in your mind. Everyone has had big fights with a loved one about little things that don’t matter.

I think part of the backlash of this patch comes from an overall discontent with part of the community, who was looking for a reason to attack.

If my feelings towards my marriage were ‘an overall discontent’ and a general feeling of anger I’d get a divorce. As usual your comments are incredibly dismissive of anyone who feels differently from how you do. “Little things that don’t matter”, except a lot of little things eventually add up to big things. People are unhappy for reasons, actual real reasons, they aren’t wrong in the way they feel and they aren’t overreacting to things which don’t matter to them.

Your own poll shows that 82% of voters do not like the new changes (to varying degrees). You can try to spin it however you like, but I don’t think it’s reasonable or believable for you to suggest that these people are blowing it out of proportion or are irrationally angry and discontent.

Swizzle.7982:

Your own poll shows that 82% of voters do not like the new changes (to varying degrees). You can try to spin it however you like, but I don’t think it’s reasonable or believable for you to suggest that these people are blowing it out of proportion or are irrationally angry and discontent.

There isn’t much point to try and reason with him/her, like you said their own poll suggests something different then his/her standpoint but will still argue from his/her chairtop just trying to angle it this way or that. Then, when he/she can’t carry it forward he/she will just dismiss the whole thing as not being that important in the first place.

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

Labjax.2465:

Vayne.8563:

I think part of the backlash of this patch comes from an overall discontent with part of the community, who was looking for a reason to attack.

I don’t see any reason why the answer needs to be so deepset. People got pretty upset about the trait changes and quite a few are still complaining about it, or have left the game over it.

This patch looks like more of the same: Trying to improve the experiences for newbies at the cost of what veterans have grown to love.

I think the discontent over stuff like this tends to look very sporadic and temperamental for a couple of reasons. 1) Most of the people who are genuinely angry about it are just going to leave. They aren’t going to stick around complaining until the end of time. 2) The people who stick around may just give up after a bit and give it some time – you only have so much energy to get bothered about things in your life.

Traits were in no way connected to newbs, but to statisfy certain specific group of whiners (and unfortunately they listened to them)

no one asked for trait locking.
some people suggested they should make NEW SKILLS that you could get through gameplay, opposed to only being able to pay 25 skill points (like the universal toxic heal) and that could act as horizontal progression.

They then decided to apply this to traits instead, because traits are easier to create. (some dev actually said this in an interview or something)They decided to apply it to old existing traits, and not just new ones, as a surprise twist, but most likely because they felt leveling needed more progression.
it was not a requested feature.

It was requested feature because a lot of people whined that reading a manual is crap and they should make it like GW1 skill hunting (becasue that was “awesome”)

It was a requested feature because a lot of people whined that "character is “complete” at level 30 and theres nothing after that"

That one WAS direct from feedback of the “community” and falls on back of the “community”

Enjoy.

you say things, but i actually read the CDI, it was about SKILLS, not traits, and people whining the game is complete at 30 were not the people even asking for horizontal progression. That would be vertical progression, which in the cdi, people were actively avoiding talking about even when the devs steered the cdi to that topic, and trying to talk about horizontal progression again.

I do know people who complained about game feeling complete at 30, but they were generally shouted down by a great many players for every person asking for that.

So no, it was not the masses they were listening to, they may have listened to one guy that a lot of other people were disagreeing with, but that seems to suggest they were just gonna do what they wanted anyhow, and were not following the desires of the people.

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

Labjax.2465:

Vayne.8563:

I think part of the backlash of this patch comes from an overall discontent with part of the community, who was looking for a reason to attack.

I don’t see any reason why the answer needs to be so deepset. People got pretty upset about the trait changes and quite a few are still complaining about it, or have left the game over it.

This patch looks like more of the same: Trying to improve the experiences for newbies at the cost of what veterans have grown to love.

I think the discontent over stuff like this tends to look very sporadic and temperamental for a couple of reasons. 1) Most of the people who are genuinely angry about it are just going to leave. They aren’t going to stick around complaining until the end of time. 2) The people who stick around may just give up after a bit and give it some time – you only have so much energy to get bothered about things in your life.

Traits were in no way connected to newbs, but to statisfy certain specific group of whiners (and unfortunately they listened to them)

no one asked for trait locking.
some people suggested they should make NEW SKILLS that you could get through gameplay, opposed to only being able to pay 25 skill points (like the universal toxic heal) and that could act as horizontal progression.

They then decided to apply this to traits instead, because traits are easier to create. (some dev actually said this in an interview or something)They decided to apply it to old existing traits, and not just new ones, as a surprise twist, but most likely because they felt leveling needed more progression.
it was not a requested feature.

It was requested feature because a lot of people whined that reading a manual is crap and they should make it like GW1 skill hunting (becasue that was “awesome”)

It was a requested feature because a lot of people whined that "character is “complete” at level 30 and theres nothing after that"

That one WAS direct from feedback of the “community” and falls on back of the “community”

Enjoy.

you say things, but i actually read the CDI, it was about SKILLS, not traits, and people whining the game is complete at 30 were not the people even asking for horizontal progression. That would be vertical progression, which in the cdi, people were actively avoiding talking about even when the devs steered the cdi to that topic, and trying to talk about horizontal progression again.

I do know people who complained about game feeling complete at 30, but they were generally shouted down by a great many players for every person asking for that.

So no, it was not the masses they were listening to, they may have listened to one guy that a lot of other people were disagreeing with, but that seems to suggest they were just gonna do what they wanted anyhow, and were not following the desires of the people.

They listened to “the community”. Because you know what? Everyone claims he is “the community”

Just as claim you are “the community”. Why should they listen to you now? You are also shouted down by many now.

So yeah, i wouldnt even blink if ANet doesnt listen to “the commuity” ever again.

AND there are NO “masses” on the forums, just a loud tiny group inside a small group that greatly differs in need and wants than rest of the playerbase.

Vayne.8563:

Lord Kuru.3685:

LOL. Looks like the poll backfired on the OP.

Didn’t backfire at all, mate. Not even a tiny bit.

Nope it revealed exactly what a PTR would have revealed, that people don’t like these changes and would rather they work on what’s really wrong with the game.

Furyan.9578:

Swizzle.7982:

Your own poll shows that 82% of voters do not like the new changes (to varying degrees). You can try to spin it however you like, but I don’t think it’s reasonable or believable for you to suggest that these people are blowing it out of proportion or are irrationally angry and discontent.

There isn’t much point to try and reason with him/her, like you said their own poll suggests something different then his/her standpoint but will still argue from his/her chairtop just trying to angle it this way or that. Then, when he/she can’t carry it forward he/she will just dismiss the whole thing as not being that important in the first place.

I hate online polls or forum votes as a means of counting discontent. I would much prefer actual polls where we can be sure one person didn’t vote twice (on any side of the matter) and forums . . . similarly, there’s not much way of knowing who’s behind the user names. At least here, there’s the assumption it’s another person since they would have had to buy a second game otherwise . . .

But there are things to be said here:

First, yes there are people upset over the changes. The changes are quite possibly one of the more messed-up features which got added and until we get some official words on what’s going on with the “bugs vs intentional features” . . . (I don’t bet on it until Monday at the earliest) all that can be said is there’s a lot of improvement which needs to be made here.

Second. There is no point in posting just to say how you won’t talk with someone, or to sling mud around. Be mature and just shrug it off; if Vayne wants to delude himself then that’s his business. If there’s no point to engaging him in talk, then there’s also no point to telling others he’s just the crazy man under the bridge trying to tell you how the world is going to end. Let people engage him or others in conversations at their own peril.

Finally, I really need you to listen closely. The polls on this and the post count of people bashing the update vs supporting it really isn’t all that important. If you learn nothing about a voting system or forum of discussion, learn this well – there is a not-insignificant number of people who will never involve themselves, and never speak up about how they feel one way or the other. Especially if it’s overly hostile as it is regarding this – why say “I dunno I kind of like it” if the atmosphere seems to be that only a survivor of frontal lobotomy would like the changes?

tigirius.9014:

Vayne.8563:

Lord Kuru.3685:

LOL. Looks like the poll backfired on the OP.

Didn’t backfire at all, mate. Not even a tiny bit.

Nope it revealed exactly what a PTR would have revealed, that people don’t like these changes and would rather they work on what’s really wrong with the game.

A PTR. So no game with a PTR ever implemented something that didn’t go over well with the fans? LMAO.

Okay, whatever you say.

The fact is, and this is FACT, it wouldn’t have mattered if the public test server showed this to be unpopular, because Anet didn’t implement this change completely for it to be popular. They packaged it to try to make it less invasive, but gaining new people from free weekends > than a percentage of people not liking it.

Do you know the warrior changes are unpopular to warriors too. But you know the other seven professions are quite happy.

PTR. Yes, solves all problems. No game with PTR has ever been unsuccessful.

In fact, how many games with PTRs are more successful than Guild Wars 2? How many games with PTRs are less succesful.

Edited Edit: Rift had PTR almost from the beginning. Came out with a big PvP update. In this update, they made long term PvP players so powerful they were virtually unkillable. Made the game unplayable for anyone else. Huge backlash from the fan base. Where was the PTR then?

Vayne.8563:

PTR. Yes, solves all problems. No game with PTR has ever been unsuccessful.

Ultima Online comes to mind for specifically having a test server which devolved into faction zone control eventually and not so much testing going on My brother played on it quite a bit, he enjoyed the PvP. The game took a wrong turn when they split the world into PvP and non-PvP worlds, and I heard there was a huge crash when the Oriental-themed expansion hit.

EverQuest had a test server and was known for having several “working as intended” issues from vanilla release which didn’t get fixed until much later . . . while blatantly being finished later than vanilla. (“Fiery Avenger quest was always in the game” for instance.)

Given my sour taste over EverQuest, I gave up on MMOs until Guild Wars 1 (not an MMO, yes, I know). So anything between “Shadows of Luclin” for EverQuest and now I can’t attest to test servers . . . but I can attest to almost every patch day having things bah-roken when it hit live. Right up to and including “can’t access expansion material even though I’m flagged for buying it”.

But I did get a nice chuckle from some dev friends of mine who told me it might catch a few more bugs. But not many more.

PTRs do catch more bugs but at a very high cost.

The cost of setting up and running the server, another server to monitor and fix, spoilers for people who don’t want them in map chat, people who use the server to profit financially, and thinning out of the people who play the actual game (assuming many use the test server. I didn’t find that to be the case in Rift, because I used the test server there).

Vayne.8563:

PTRs do catch more bugs but at a very high cost.

The cost of setting up and running the server, another server to monitor and fix, spoilers for people who don’t want them in map chat, people who use the server to profit financially, and thinning out of the people who play the actual game (assuming many use the test server. I didn’t find that to be the case in Rift, because I used the test server there).

But the question becomes, is the PTR and the potential to catch issues worth the investment of time, money, and hardware?

Again, I’m not so sure it really would get used well enough to give good data. But then, this community has surprised me a lot so . . .

Vayne.8563:

Where was the PTR then?

That would depend.

Did the company in question actually listen to the PTR data?

I beta’d Cata and Pandaria.

Wanna know one of the reasons they tanked so bad, despite having betas and PTRs?

Because Blizzard didn’t actually -do- anything with all the information that had been gathered in the various beta forums after a certain point. In some instances, they outright ignored the data that had been gathered.

But no, you obviously must be right. PTRs are worthless because of your crappy experiences in RIFT.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But the question becomes, is the PTR and the potential to catch issues worth the investment of time, money, and hardware?

Only if you actually act upon the data gathered.

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

Where was the PTR then?

That would depend.

Did the company in question actually listen to the PTR data?

I beta’d Cata and Pandaria.

Wanna know one of the reasons they tanked so bad, despite having betas and PTRs?

Because Blizzard didn’t actually -do- anything with all the information that had been gathered in the various beta forums after a certain point. In some instances, they outright ignored the data that had been gathered.

But no, you obviously must be right. PTRs are worthless because of your crappy experiences in RIFT.

Rift and other games. You’ve just given another example. First of all, the lower the population of a game, the lower the population of a test server. WoW, when it had 12 million subscribers could probably do with one. I don’t think enough people went on the Rift test server to make a difference and you know…if they did, there wouldn’t have been enough people in the game on most servers.

PTRs are something fans often insist on but I’ve seen no actually evidence that they make the game better. But they don’t have a high cost in resources. If you’re going to invest those resources, you’d have to pretty much know they’d be worth it.

Gene Archer.8560:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But the question becomes, is the PTR and the potential to catch issues worth the investment of time, money, and hardware?

Only if you actually act upon the data gathered.

And next question in line:

If we assume ANet isn’t listening now, then what makes people think they’ll listen to a PTR?

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

Where was the PTR then?

That would depend.

Did the company in question actually listen to the PTR data?

I beta’d Cata and Pandaria.

Wanna know one of the reasons they tanked so bad, despite having betas and PTRs?

Because Blizzard didn’t actually -do- anything with all the information that had been gathered in the various beta forums after a certain point. In some instances, they outright ignored the data that had been gathered.

But no, you obviously must be right. PTRs are worthless because of your crappy experiences in RIFT.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But the question becomes, is the PTR and the potential to catch issues worth the investment of time, money, and hardware?

Only if you actually act upon the data gathered.

Some people have this romantic idea that they will greatly effect content if there was a PTR.

Theres a lot of stuff discovered on PTR, and while some is squished, most of those roll out to live anyway.

Just a funny anecdote, when SWTOR rolled out PTR there was no means of insta max level so if you wanted to actually test endgame content you had to level to max and farm gear for it just as in live. And it was like that for a long long time

Vayne.8563:

WoW, when it had 12 million subscribers could probably do with one.

They -still- have PTRs. They constantly have PTRs.

I wouldn’t know if they act on the data or not. Their newest expansion seems to suggest a return to their roots, however.

Vayne.8563:

I don’t think enough people went on the Rift test server to make a difference and you know…if they did, there wouldn’t have been enough people in the game on most servers.

>Implying people can’t split their time up between live and test play.

Vayne.8563:

PTRs are something fans often insist on but I’ve seen no actually evidence that they make the game better.

Well, again. PTRs are a two way street. It’s not enough for players to play and test them. The companies have to actually act on the data.

Vayne.8563:

If you’re going to invest those resources, you’d have to pretty much know they’d be worth it.

Well the only way for it to be worth it is for the company in question to actually utilize the data.

You seem to have faith in Anet’s ability to utilize data, so I fail to see why you have such problems with the idea of a PTR.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

And next question in line:

If we assume ANet isn’t listening now, then what makes people think they’ll listen to a PTR?

I believe the assumption there is that it would come along with general changes in Anet policy. Such as things like communication, etc.

MikaHR.1978:

Theres a lot of stuff discovered on PTR, and while some is squished, most of those roll out to live anyway.

Just a funny anecdote, when SWTOR rolled out PTR there was no means of insta max level so if you wanted to actually test endgame content you had to level to max and farm gear for it just as in live. And it was like that for a long long time

That would be on the company for not utilizing the data, and for not setting it up so that quick max level is possible in order to test end game content on the PTR.

Vayne.8563:

looking for a reason to attack.

In NPE Tyria, reasons to attack look for you!

Ahem.

Random reason to attack NPE:

• Having to wait until level 22 to unlock earth skills on an elementalist.

Vayne.8563:

A PTR. So no game with a PTR ever implemented something that didn’t go over well with the fans? LMAO.

The person you’re quoting never said, or implied, that. You may wish to comprehend posts you quote and reply to.

Vayne.8563:

The fact is, and this is FACT, it wouldn’t have mattered if the public test server showed this to be unpopular, because Anet didn’t implement this change completely for it to be popular.

You say that what you are about to present is a fact (twice, once in capitals, directly after saying it already) but then you state an opinion based on your own interpretation and/or unsubstantiated “evidence”.

Vayne.8563:

PTR. Yes, solves all problems. No game with PTR has ever been unsuccessful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Vayne.8563:

In fact, how many games with PTRs are more successful than Guild Wars 2? How many games with PTRs are less succesful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_attribution

dace.8019:

Vayne.8563:

A PTR. So no game with a PTR ever implemented something that didn’t go over well with the fans? LMAO.

The person you’re quoting never said, or implied, that. You may wish to comprehend posts you quote and reply to.

Vayne.8563:

The fact is, and this is FACT, it wouldn’t have mattered if the public test server showed this to be unpopular, because Anet didn’t implement this change completely for it to be popular.

You say that what you are about to present is a fact (twice, once in capitals, directly after saying it already) but then you state an opinion based on your own interpretation and/or unsubstantiated “evidence”.

Vayne.8563:

PTR. Yes, solves all problems. No game with PTR has ever been unsuccessful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Vayne.8563:

In fact, how many games with PTRs are more successful than Guild Wars 2? How many games with PTRs are less succesful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_attribution

Well someone is saying a PTR would improve this game. There’s no evidence of this. Period.

Vayne your poll is a bit skewed to hide numbers, you should have only given 3 options
love it, hate it, doesn’t matter.

looking at your poll 40% of the people HATE the new leveling at 512 votes. Since you tried to skew it ill fix it for you.
1065 people do NOT like the new leveling
114 like it
122 people it doesn’t affect
There are more people that it does not affect than like it. There are almost 10 times the people that HATE it than like it.. yes i guess it is showing correct numbers. Me personally im disgusted by it, i came back to this game a few weeks ago. started playing my old characters and said meh game is decent so ill stick around…. patch hit and I started a new character. SOMEONE PLEASE GOUGE OUT MY EYES…. leveling is beyond boring now, everyone is the same, you cant differentiate your character really until 80, traits come kittened slow, everything is level gated, the game went from decent to complete snoozefest. Add in having to hunt all over creation to actually get a trait and it makes you want to / wrist.

Vyanie.9048:

Vayne your poll is a bit skewed to hide numbers, you should have only given 3 options
love it, hate it, doesn’t matter.

looking at your poll 40% of the people HATE the new leveling at 512 votes. Since you tried to skew it ill fix it for you.
1065 people do NOT like the new leveling
114 like it
122 people it doesn’t affect
There are more people that it does not affect than like it. There are almost 10 times the people that HATE it than like it.. yes i guess it is showing correct numbers. Me personally im disgusted by it, i came back to this game a few weeks ago. started playing my old characters and said meh game is decent so ill stick around…. patch hit and I started a new character. SOMEONE PLEASE GOUGE OUT MY EYES…. leveling is beyond boring now, everyone is the same, you cant differentiate your character really until 80, traits come kittened slow, everything is level gated, the game went from decent to complete snoozefest. Add in having to hunt all over creation to actually get a trait and it makes you want to / wrist.

It’s so cool. Before the official forums got involved it was very balanced. Then suddenly out of nowhere, it got downvoted by a bunch of people and the numbers stacked up with hate it.

I didn’t announce it on the official forums first, because I was pretty sure that’s what would happen.

I voted once and once only. My wife couldn’t vote, because we have the same IP. But of course, no one from the official forums would possibly try to skew the vote at all. That would never happen under any circumstance.

The pre forum annoucement and post forum annoucement were night and day. I’m quite okay with it.

I have learned over the course of a few weeks to not to bother to engage with Vayne on any level as you will be dismissed unless you agree with him/her.

Why people who have been using this forum for much, much longer than me haven’t learned this valuable and forum experience enhancing lesson, I don’t know.

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

Labjax.2465:

Vayne.8563:

I think part of the backlash of this patch comes from an overall discontent with part of the community, who was looking for a reason to attack.

I don’t see any reason why the answer needs to be so deepset. People got pretty upset about the trait changes and quite a few are still complaining about it, or have left the game over it.

This patch looks like more of the same: Trying to improve the experiences for newbies at the cost of what veterans have grown to love.

I think the discontent over stuff like this tends to look very sporadic and temperamental for a couple of reasons. 1) Most of the people who are genuinely angry about it are just going to leave. They aren’t going to stick around complaining until the end of time. 2) The people who stick around may just give up after a bit and give it some time – you only have so much energy to get bothered about things in your life.

Traits were in no way connected to newbs, but to statisfy certain specific group of whiners (and unfortunately they listened to them)

no one asked for trait locking.
some people suggested they should make NEW SKILLS that you could get through gameplay, opposed to only being able to pay 25 skill points (like the universal toxic heal) and that could act as horizontal progression.

They then decided to apply this to traits instead, because traits are easier to create. (some dev actually said this in an interview or something)They decided to apply it to old existing traits, and not just new ones, as a surprise twist, but most likely because they felt leveling needed more progression.
it was not a requested feature.

It was requested feature because a lot of people whined that reading a manual is crap and they should make it like GW1 skill hunting (becasue that was “awesome”)

It was a requested feature because a lot of people whined that "character is “complete” at level 30 and theres nothing after that"

That one WAS direct from feedback of the “community” and falls on back of the “community”

Enjoy.

you say things, but i actually read the CDI, it was about SKILLS, not traits, and people whining the game is complete at 30 were not the people even asking for horizontal progression. That would be vertical progression, which in the cdi, people were actively avoiding talking about even when the devs steered the cdi to that topic, and trying to talk about horizontal progression again.

I do know people who complained about game feeling complete at 30, but they were generally shouted down by a great many players for every person asking for that.

So no, it was not the masses they were listening to, they may have listened to one guy that a lot of other people were disagreeing with, but that seems to suggest they were just gonna do what they wanted anyhow, and were not following the desires of the people.

I’ve found that in the CDI’s, Chris really only bantered with 6 people, and that vocal minority became the discussion group. Yes, the CDI starts off with a lot of participation from many voices, but it whittles down further as the pages of the thread roll on, and it becomes a discussion between “Chris and his buds”. It’s not very democratic, and seems heavily weighted to favoritism. They’d be better off actually doing their research on the forums, reading the amassed feedback that could answer any CDI topic they decided to pull out of their hat.

Vayne your saying that your purposely trying to skew it?
Asking a select group of people instead of a broad audience is basically like trying to fix an election. With the small amount of people that actually voted in it i doubt there was many if any that tried to skew it besides yourself.

rapthorne.7345:

I have learned over the course of a few weeks to not to bother to engage with Vayne on any level as you will be dismissed unless you agree with him/her.

Why people who have been using this forum for much, much longer than me haven’t learned this valuable and forum experience enhancing lesson, I don’t know.

For every person who hates me on these forums, another really likes me. I’m okay with that.

Vyanie.9048:

Vayne your saying that your purposely trying to skew it?
Asking a select group of people instead of a broad audience is basically like trying to fix an election. With the small amount of people that actually voted in it i doubt there was many if any that tried to skew it besides yourself.

I’m saying I wanted to see how inviting the forum into the much more positive reddit would work out. I saw.

That’s not purposely trying to skew something. I was testing a theory.

I’ve already explained the wording of the survey earlier in the thread. Feel free to backtrack and read it if you like.

Vayne.8563:

rapthorne.7345:

I have learned over the course of a few weeks to not to bother to engage with Vayne on any level as you will be dismissed unless you agree with him/her.

Why people who have been using this forum for much, much longer than me haven’t learned this valuable and forum experience enhancing lesson, I don’t know.

For every person who hates me on these forums, another really likes me. I’m okay with that.

Not really.

I have read it. But again your trying to basically fix an election. If you only ask the people that agree with you about something of course your going to get the desired response. Your basic theory is flawed. and the reddit is more positive because most people in the game, except those you have told about it, had no idea about the poll. When you opened it up to the forums you then basically removed your control over the voters of the poll.

Here is a good example. there are 100 people in a room 10 are color blind, I go to ONLY those 10 and ask them hey what color is this and they all say red. then ohh look this color must be red …. now you all of a sudden announce to the other 90 that your taking a poll and asking what color something is and the other 90 say green. The color is not magically red or green, you just only asked the select few whom you could illicit the response you wanted first then claim everyone else is wrong.

Vayne.8563:

It’s so cool. Before the official forums got involved it was very balanced. Then suddenly out of nowhere, it got downvoted by a bunch of people and the numbers stacked up with hate it.

So you are saying, right now the number is skewed?

I remember before you are making a big deal out of it, because vast majority of people voted “the new changes is ok if they make some adjustment”.

Vyanie.9048:

I have read it. But again your trying to basically fix an election. If you only ask the people that agree with you about something of course your going to get the desired response. Your basic theory is flawed. and the reddit is more positive because most people in the game, except those you have told about it, had no idea about the poll. When you opened it up to the forums you then basically removed your control over the voters of the poll.

You can think that if you want. I have no problem with that. Doesn’t change the truth of anything I’ve said.

Reddit is generally more positive, and while the forum tends to be negative almost all day every day, reddit is not. That’s because reddit is generally fan moderated and if someone posts something completely ridiculous or overstated it gets downvoted by fans until it disappears.

Reddit does get angry sometimes, and does pop it’s cork, but not nearly as often as the forums and not for nearly as long.

Again, because it’s fan moderated. Moderators have to let negative stuff stand or they get accused of bias. They get accused of that anyway, but it’s silly considering how many negative threads and comments there are.

But like I said, you’re 100% free to believe anything you want.

Leo Paul.1659:

Vayne.8563:

rapthorne.7345:

I have learned over the course of a few weeks to not to bother to engage with Vayne on any level as you will be dismissed unless you agree with him/her.

Why people who have been using this forum for much, much longer than me haven’t learned this valuable and forum experience enhancing lesson, I don’t know.

For every person who hates me on these forums, another really likes me. I’m okay with that.

Not really.

I’ve always been a polarizing influence. In every area of my life. I know the percentages.

Vayne i edited my post to hopefully give you a clearer understanding. If for some reason you are still in denial about it you should really start seeing someone professionally

Either that or you can start teaching classes on how to troll.

Vyanie.9048:

Vayne i edited my post to hopefully give you a clearer understanding. If for some reason you are still in denial about it you should really start seeing someone professionally

Actually I’m going to bed. Have a great night.

Vayne.8563:

It’s so cool. Before the official forums got involved it was very balanced. Then suddenly out of nowhere, it got downvoted by a bunch of people and the numbers stacked up with hate it.

I didn’t announce it on the official forums first, because I was pretty sure that’s what would happen.

I voted once and once only. My wife couldn’t vote, because we have the same IP. But of course, no one from the official forums would possibly try to skew the vote at all. That would never happen under any circumstance.

The pre forum annoucement and post forum annoucement were night and day. I’m quite okay with it.

Oh no! People who disagree with me voted too! But don’t worry, their votes don’t matter, because reasons.

Vayne I don’t think we hate you, We just find it annoying that you always argue with us for every criticism of gw2 we have, We don’t know if you are trying to troll us or if you genuinely believe that gw2 is perfect with absolutely no faults. The criticism isn’t us having a cheap shot at arenanet, We are just trying to get them to improve the game.

Stiofan.6720:

Vayne I don’t think we hate you, We just find it annoying that you always argue with us for every criticism of gw2 we have, We don’t know if you are trying to troll us or if you genuinely believe that gw2 is perfect with absolutely no faults. The criticism isn’t us having a cheap shot at arenanet, We are just really trying to get them to improve the game.

well, Vayne hated the trait system too. That is one of the very few things I see he hated about the game.

Anet should really consider reverting the trait changes, consider even Vayne hated it.

Can’t say I like ‘em, so I chose that option. I think I would’ve been more fine with the poll saying “yes/no/indifferent” since it’s fairly self evident that anything can be fixed with slight and solid changes.

MikaHR.1978:

phys.7689:

MikaHR.1978:

Labjax.2465:

Vayne.8563:

I think part of the backlash of this patch comes from an overall discontent with part of the community, who was looking for a reason to attack.

I don’t see any reason why the answer needs to be so deepset. People got pretty upset about the trait changes and quite a few are still complaining about it, or have left the game over it.

This patch looks like more of the same: Trying to improve the experiences for newbies at the cost of what veterans have grown to love.

I think the discontent over stuff like this tends to look very sporadic and temperamental for a couple of reasons. 1) Most of the people who are genuinely angry about it are just going to leave. They aren’t going to stick around complaining until the end of time. 2) The people who stick around may just give up after a bit and give it some time – you only have so much energy to get bothered about things in your life.

Traits were in no way connected to newbs, but to statisfy certain specific group of whiners (and unfortunately they listened to them)

no one asked for trait locking.
some people suggested they should make NEW SKILLS that you could get through gameplay, opposed to only being able to pay 25 skill points (like the universal toxic heal) and that could act as horizontal progression.

They then decided to apply this to traits instead, because traits are easier to create. (some dev actually said this in an interview or something)They decided to apply it to old existing traits, and not just new ones, as a surprise twist, but most likely because they felt leveling needed more progression.
it was not a requested feature.

It was requested feature because a lot of people whined that reading a manual is crap and they should make it like GW1 skill hunting (becasue that was “awesome”)

It was a requested feature because a lot of people whined that "character is “complete” at level 30 and theres nothing after that"

That one WAS direct from feedback of the “community” and falls on back of the “community”

Enjoy.

It’s worth noting why GW1 skill hunting was “awesome”, and it was because there was plenty to unlock.

On the other end, GW2 trait unlocks were “awesome” because you could progress however you’d like. The issue was finding out how much there was to unlock, leading to a lot of “wait, that’s it?”s.

Vayne’s trying far too hard to prove what we already know. The general thrust of the forum hates the new leveling system, for whatever reason. He didn’t need a vote to prove that. So yeah, he’s spinning a wee bit.

That said, he’s not ENTIRELY wrong that elsewhere the response (outside of the initial revulsion) has been less venomous. I dunno if I’d call it balanced, but that certainly the most rabid hate (like usual) has been on the official forums.

Vayne.8563:

Reddit is generally more positive, and while the forum tends to be negative almost all day every day, reddit is not. That’s because reddit is generally fan moderated and if someone posts something completely ridiculous or overstated it gets downvoted by fans until it disappears.

You left out the poor left out GW2 people on facebook!

Stiofan.6720:

Vayne I don’t think we hate you, We just find it annoying that you always argue with us for every criticism of gw2 we have, We don’t know if you are trying to troll us or if you genuinely believe that gw2 is perfect with absolutely no faults. The criticism isn’t us having a cheap shot at arenanet, We are just really trying to get them to improve the game.

I really do want to get to sleep. It’s after midnight here, but I’ll answer this as I’ve answered it many times before. I wish Anet would sticky it sometimes.

I don’t have a problem with constructive criticism. In case you missed it, I posted quite a few times about things I didn’t like about the new trait system. I’ve posted about other stuff I don’t like in the past. Also, there are almost always negative posts on the forums that I don’t enter into at all. These are NOT the threads I care about.

The ones that bother me are ones where people are offensive, or they exaagerate their position so much that it takes away any validity they might have had.

You’ve been on the forums the last week, and you didn’t see people calling for boycotts, people threatening, people stamping their feet? If you have constructive criticism offer it in a fair and polite way. I might disagree, but I won’t fight about it. It’s an opinion.

But when people make statements like No one likes this update. Or no one likes the NPE. Or this is going to completely destroy the game, yes, then I take exception and then I say something.

It could just be that I’m more used to writing critique groups, where critiques have to be polite. There was a thread on reddit were one guy called for a specific employee’s job to be terminated. It was downvoted to hell very fast, but it was there.

I don’t have a problem with criticism.

A thread titles RIP Guild Wars 2 leveling is not only an exaageration but we haven’t even seen the fixes to the system yet. It’s a ridiculous thread to post now, when you don’t even know what changes the monday patch will bring. At least wait to see if anything is fixed before you make that judgment.

Munkiman posted an excellent 2 year review of the game, now on page two. He made a lot of negative comments, but I only commented one line on one of them. Why? Because it was a respectful review that was constructive.

Saying the game is dying, or telling people the game isn’t doing well because someone doesn’t know how to read a financial report is just wrong. That’s all.

Don’t believe me. Watch over the weeks ahead the number of critical threads that I don’t post in and then tell me that I post in every negative thread.

There are ways to constructively criticize. There are ways to start a panic. They’re not the same thing.

i remember awhile ago they asked if their leveling needed any rework.. and much like every other aspect of this game the resounding answer was fix bugs, diminish exploits, and squeeze in some additional improvements.. and as always the solution of solutions put forth by arena net was overdue overhaul
and as always
the response from the player community was “how did you surmise that 2 + 2 = potato”

you want to take a vote? i vote stop deliberately destroying this game

Vayne.8563:

Well someone is saying a PTR would improve this game. There’s no evidence of this. Period.

There’s also no evidence that it would hinder the game. Punctuation.

ArenaNet do private testing, they have a QA department, the recent changes are, in part, attributed to play-testers (their feedback and gameplay data). These things have similar functions as a PTR, so ArenaNet aren’t inherently against the concept of practically testing the game and any changes to it and trying to gather as wide (and varied) data as they can.

I actually don’t mind their current approach, whereby we, the players, help (our data as much as our tickets/forum posts) identify issues that slip through the internal testing. Major fixes usually follow quickly and shipping changes to everyone casts the widest data net ArenaNet are going to get. In my opinion, with the right kind of infrastructure, this is pretty efficient.

I believe ArenaNet are satisfied with the live servers fulfilling some of the role of a PTR. I also believe one thing; we’re not going to see a future dedicated PTR for GW2 since the old PTR was closed.