Guild Wars 2

I see there is plenty of indignation over the changes to the Gem Store. So I am to take it everyone is ok with the ‘give the ticket to the Skritt for chances to win one of 1000 Halloween skins’? If you hadn’t seen this, there is a Skritt in LA that is collecting foil wrappers (that drop from kills in game, or fortuitously, can be purchased for gems in the gem store) which you turn in, are ‘marked with your name’ and then pulled from a hat to have a chance at one of the Halloween weapons skin.

This ties in directly with John Smiths discussion here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/RNG-as-a-concept-Discuss/page/10#post4502542

Have we come so far in accepting RNG, that we are willing to accept a true lottery within a game? I enjoy getting loot as much as the next person, it just feels wrong to collect ‘silver tickets’ for a chance to win something. The sense of wrong is increased when someone can buy as many tickets as they can afford from the store. This isn’t a reward system, this is flat out gambling. I’m posting this not out of moral outrage. I like gambling! I’m posting this to ask the community if you feel that a lottery is a legitimate way to receive rewards in any game, particularly an MMO. I feel that a line is being crossed here and it needs to be recognized as a mistake. However, I might be wrong and it’s some weird sensibility I have. Please, keep this one civil. It would be to easy to shut this thread down and I do want Anet to get a good idea where we stand on this.

If you mix tickets with natural RNG, it feels like a “critical hit” chance (lol bad wording there). It’s actually cool.

If the only way to get them was to buy them from the trading post then yeah, it would suck. But since they apparently drop from mobs I don’t see an issue.

Assuming that they do drop from mobs. The whole gem thing has soured me from even bothering to log in since the update.

Yeah, I don’t mind it. You can get the tickets without spending money. I also bet on the Moa races when we had them. Poor old Mort, I made money off him.

ive gotten 2 from ToT bags. im not a fan of gambling, but i will gladly give what i find to a skritt that wants “shinies” and know that i wont win anything anyway.

fellyn.5083:

If the only way to get them was to buy them from the trading post then yeah, it would suck. But since they apparently drop from mobs I don’t see an issue.

Assuming that they do drop from mobs. The whole gem thing has soured me from even bothering to log in since the update.

Not sure if they directly drop from mobs, but they are a possible reward form ToT bags from the event (which you get tons of if you do the achievements or farm a little of the labyrinth).

On Topic: I would be maybe a little miffed if the skins weren’t RNG in the first place. The fact that there is in game means of which to try your hand. It sits well with me. Especially since this is a Raffle, and Raffles are something that is done very often in the real world and I quite enjoy them.

They’re pushing the envelope to see how far they can go with grabbing cash. It’s an area that needs more regulation. I’m sure that will eventually come as most countries have fairly comprehensive regulation of gambling and lotteries. They haven’t yet caught up with in-game real money gambling.

In game lottery for some things that have been requested back so many times, and putting tickets in the gem shop is a horrible idea. Doubly so in a game that allows minors to participate. At least online poker is the preserve of adults who should be able to know what they are getting into.

Why not give us back the original way of obtaining these?
Why not make a harder meta-achievement to earn one of these skins?
Why not give us a way to earn them in game?
Why not give them for a fixed price in the gem store?

More money. That’s why.

So much for GW2 wanting to be different.

Edit: I know full well these tickets can drop in-game. More chances in store are an attempt at getting more money from all those hoping to improve the chances of winning the lottery.

fellyn.5083:

Assuming that they do drop from mobs. The whole gem thing has soured me from even bothering to log in since the update.

They do. Or well, they drop from the Trick or Treat bags which drops from mobs.

I got four of them within an hour of play yesterday.

I didn’t know about gem conversion change. I only came to know now, and I feel so much disappointed… guess it spoiled the fun for me.

I have gotten two from the drops in the Labyrinth over 3 hours. I do not think I will get as many as someone that drops $35 in the store over two weeks, let alone $100.

However, this really isn’t about this fact. My concern is that we will be continually collecting stuff, that can also be purchased within the store for far less work than the actual collecting, then have to take a chance to get some item. To be honest, this doesn’t work for me as a ‘fun’ idea. I do not gamble with important things in my life, time or money.

I’ve gotten 10 from the Trick or Treat bags, and that came with just a few hours of play. Unless they drastically nerf the bags (and I really hope that is the furthest thing from their mind right now…), I should get plenty of wrappers to get chances in. Do I love that someone can just buy their way to several? Not really. But I mean, if you’ve got enough “stupid money” to buy chances at a halloween skin, why not just buy the gold for the skin?

I participated in guild lotteries and server lotteries. I have no problem with that.

If it’s the scythe staff skin it’s somewhere about 1200g – that’s £85 of stupid money. I know the shield is quite a bit more.

That’s quite a bit to want to drop on mum’s credit card! Or for a moment of impulse.

Let’s be clear, they wouldn’t be in the gem store if they didn’t hope and expect people to pay for them. That’s the only bit I object to. Tickets from in-game drops only? Nice!

I dont have a problem with this.. If someone wants to pay instead of just using the ingame way of gathering tickets, then he may just want to win that much more than you do (..and has the means to afford it) Anet profits, and the people who want it so much they are willing to invest real money profit, while people who just want to play still have a chance to win something..

and how do we know exactly how this “lottery” is going to work? What if one person puts in a HUGE number of these wrappers. Will they be “chosen” more than once? Will it be a fair drawing?

I have 0 hope that I’ll see a winning ticket. I found 14 wrappers last night in treat bags and will continue to put them in as I find them, but with no trust in this company anymore, and no trust in the RNG system…nope, no hope.

And is it 1000 people getting selected or will it be 6 people getting 100s of each? That part is very unclear.

I’ve given that skritt over 300 now, I sure hope he remembers who his friends are.

khani.4786:

and how do we know exactly how this “lottery” is going to work? What if one person puts in a HUGE number of these wrappers. Will they be “chosen” more than once? Will it be a fair drawing?

I have 0 hope that I’ll see a winning ticket. I found 14 wrappers last night in treat bags and will continue to put them in as I find them, but with no trust in this company anymore, and no trust in the RNG system…nope, no hope.

And is it 1000 people getting selected or will it be 6 people getting 100s of each? That part is very unclear.

Every entry has a specific number, if you add 100 entries and three of those numbers are chosen you simply get three winnings.

Isn’t that how all raffles with multiple amounts of entries work?

I am not exactly excited about this lottery, but I think I understand why Anet did it. These skins are very expensive in the TP and if they introduced an uncapped decent chance way to obtain them it could potentially crash that market. So by having a lottery they can do 2 things.

1. Give players a chance to get these skins as a reward

2. Control the exact number of skins introduce into the market to prevent a crash

I would on tweak a few things.

1. remove the candy from the gem store. While these are just cosmetic items the vast amount of gold linked to them makes this come too close to pay to win for me.

2. Remove the rng of obtaining the tickets and rather make them fixed rewards for festival events based on the frequency and difficulty of the event.

I have no problem with things that allow you to participate by playing the game. If some want to buy Wrappers, sobeit. No different than BL Keys, which are easily obtained in-game. Some buy, and some just play to obtain the chance at something valuable (relatively speaking).

Smokey.7652:

I am not exactly excited about this lottery, but I think I understand why Anet did it. These skins are very expensive in the TP and if they introduced an uncapped decent chance way to obtain them it could potentially crash that market. So by having a lottery they can do 2 things.

1. Give players a chance to get these skins as a reward

2. Control the exact number of skins introduce into the market to prevent a crash

I would on tweak a few things.

1. remove the candy from the gem store. While these are just cosmetic items the vast amount of gold linked to them makes this come too close to pay to win for me.

2. Remove the rng of obtaining the tickets and rather make them fixed rewards for festival events based on the frequency and difficulty of the event.

I agree with the store comment, not the RNG of obtaining tickets.
In theory you can open a pile of ToT bags and get no tickets, but more likely you’ll get 3-4 from 100 (in my limited experience of obtaining 200 bags last night)

As soon as gave the NPC the ticket then I discovered it was an RnG Lottery, it was instantly screw this, there are more complaints about RnG than anything else in this game, just wait until the event is over and we have people on the forums saying things like

WTF ANET I spent $500 on gems to get them tickets and didn’t get squat,
followed by
HAHAHAHA I got a random ticket drop and I got a skin RNG BRO RNG

I guess you could say the game is truly now a PAY to WIN game.

Least we all know now how the Christmas event will be going.

I will not buy foil wrappers with gems. If I get one as a drop…I’ll hold on to it until I can spend on something guaranteed.

selling these wrappers in the cash shop or not makes no difference.
if they were only available as a drop from the trick or treat bags anyone who wanted to use money to increase their chances can simply convert gems to gold and buy tons of bags.

Man i dont have enough time to farm like others do.
I gave 10 scraps to the skrit and it taked decates for me.
Now I speak to other guildies, who spend 10,20,50euro for these scraps.
Is it weird that Im feeling out of luck now?
Is this fair?
I wish there was a normal way to farm those skins :S

Ok I Did It.2854:

I guess you could say the game is truly now a PAY to WIN game.

Least we all know now how the Christmas event will be going.

You don’t WIN anything except an appearance. This is pay to look cool, which is normal. And had you been around in 2012, you’d not have to pay to look cool at that point.

I don’t love this plan, but it strikes me as being fair enough. I can’t see anyone possibly spending enough to guarantee a win in something like this.

This is a lottery and we all get the ability to earn free tickets. Sounds fine to me. Without it, we’d probably not even have the skins available this year. :-(

As if Precursor drops wasn’t already an in game lottery, we now have this….. Do I like it, not really. I’m confident there’s probably 5% of the player whom have had “lucky” drops and think it’s great. For the rest of us, more than likely we won’t like it.

lordkrall.7241:

khani.4786:

and how do we know exactly how this “lottery” is going to work? What if one person puts in a HUGE number of these wrappers. Will they be “chosen” more than once? Will it be a fair drawing?

I have 0 hope that I’ll see a winning ticket. I found 14 wrappers last night in treat bags and will continue to put them in as I find them, but with no trust in this company anymore, and no trust in the RNG system…nope, no hope.

And is it 1000 people getting selected or will it be 6 people getting 100s of each? That part is very unclear.

Every entry has a specific number, if you add 100 entries and three of those numbers are chosen you simply get three winnings.

Isn’t that how all raffles with multiple amounts of entries work?

Nope, not all of them. Some specifically disqualify multiple wins, but allow for multiple entries to give people an increased chance at getting a win.

The way the skritt’s store looks though makes it seem as there will be 6 winners, each getting 100/200 of the skins and becoming a tycoon of that weapon skin. If it’s one winning ticket per skin then the store is poorly designed and explained.

the question remains though: Are there 6 winners or 1000 winners?

Either way, grats to the lucky ones because I know I won’t see one myself.

Hoaxintelligence.4628:

Man i dont have enough time to farm like others do.
I gave 10 scraps to the skrit and it taked decates for me.
Now I speak to other guildies, who spend 10,20,50euro for these scraps.
Is it weird that Im feeling out of luck now?
Is this fair?

That is not how random chance works.

You can put in a single wrapper and still win while someone who put in 10 000 wrappers might not win.

If you would like to know how this sort of thing works, might I suggest a movie called Charlie and the Chocolate Factory?

lordkrall.7241:

Hoaxintelligence.4628:

Man i dont have enough time to farm like others do.
I gave 10 scraps to the skrit and it taked decates for me.
Now I speak to other guildies, who spend 10,20,50euro for these scraps.
Is it weird that Im feeling out of luck now?
Is this fair?

That is not how random chance works.

You can put in a single wrapper and still win while someone who put in 10 000 wrappers might not win.

But when I (sorry about my kittenty english) go mouse over the
‘’Shiny Foil Candy Wrapper Contribution’’ you see the discription and overthere
they’r saying stuff like:

The chances of receiving an item will depend on the total number of shiny
foil candy wrappers submidded.

What does this mean?

I’m certainly not okay with this. I won’t spend a red cent on it. In fact, I’m not spending anything on the cash shop this month because of it.

I will hand in any wrapper I get dropped in the game… but the whole thing leaves me feeling quite blah.

Vayne.8563:

I’m certainly not okay with this. I won’t spend a red cent on it. In fact, I’m not spending anything on the cash shop this month because of it.

I will hand in any wrapper I get dropped in the game… but the whole thing leaves me feeling quite blah.

Why?

How is this worse than the first time around where you could ONLY get a chance on it by using the gem store?

Hoaxintelligence.4628:

lordkrall.7241:

Hoaxintelligence.4628:

Man i dont have enough time to farm like others do.
I gave 10 scraps to the skrit and it taked decates for me.
Now I speak to other guildies, who spend 10,20,50euro for these scraps.
Is it weird that Im feeling out of luck now?
Is this fair?

That is not how random chance works.

You can put in a single wrapper and still win while someone who put in 10 000 wrappers might not win.

But when I (sorry about my kittenty english) go mouse over the
‘’Shiny Foil Candy Wrapper Contribution’’ you see the discription and overthere
they’r saying stuff like:

The chances of receiving an item will depend on the total number of shiny
foil candy wrappers submidded.

What does this mean?

It’s talking about standard probability.

Your chance of winning will depend on how many wrappers the skritt gets.

for example.

If you are the only one who puts in wrappers, and you put in 10 out of 10 of them, your name is on all 10 of the wrappers and you have a 10/10 = 100% chance of winning.

if you put in 10, and your friend joe puts in 10, you have 10/20 = 50% chance of winning.

If you put in 10, joe puts in 10, and sarah puts in 10, you have a 10/30 = 33% chance of winning.

The more people put in wrappers, the smaller the chance that any one of your submitted wrapper wins becomes.

It is still a chance though. you can put in only one wrapper, while everyone else puts in 100 or so, and have a .04% chance of winning and still win.

Anything above 0 gives you a fighting chance. how much of a chance that is depends on how many people play.

Unless Anet is going a different route and changing prizes based on how many people play, and then outright delivering prizes to the people who submitted the most.

Hoaxintelligence.4628:

lordkrall.7241:

Hoaxintelligence.4628:

Man i dont have enough time to farm like others do.
I gave 10 scraps to the skrit and it taked decates for me.
Now I speak to other guildies, who spend 10,20,50euro for these scraps.
Is it weird that Im feeling out of luck now?
Is this fair?

That is not how random chance works.

You can put in a single wrapper and still win while someone who put in 10 000 wrappers might not win.

But when I (sorry about my kittenty english) go mouse over the
‘’Shiny Foil Candy Wrapper Contribution’’ you see the discription and overthere
they’r saying stuff like:

The chances of receiving an item will depend on the total number of shiny
foil candy wrappers submidded.

What does this mean?

It is the legal disclaimer that the odds of winning cannot be determined until after all tickets have been counted. Look up any open ended lottery in the US, i.e. PowerBall, State lotteries, etc. This is unlike a scratch and win ticket where the number of winning tickets is known ahead of time vs. how many were produced and odds can be figured out.

fellyn.5083:

If the only way to get them was to buy them from the trading post then yeah, it would suck. But since they apparently drop from mobs I don’t see an issue.

Assuming that they do drop from mobs. The whole gem thing has soured me from even bothering to log in since the update.

Yes, they do drop! Well, they’re inside the trick or treat bags. I got 5 last night. I will not buy them with gems, but I will certainly hand in any I acquire in-game. I really want the ghastly grinning shield skin!

Thanks for the info!

First off let’s get two things straight here, this thing with the candy wrappers is a RAFFLE; which is similar to a lottery, however, it is not the same as gambling, by definition, which is why any organization can have a raffle, but gambling is only allowed where it is legal.

Let’s look at this discussion from a different view. Would people be agreeable to this same system for precursors? Every month x numbers of each precursor can be won by a group of people turning in some type of ‘ticket’. The ‘ticket’ could also be purchased at a minimal price in the Gem Store. Would it be better or worse if the current possibility of RNG drops for these items would be removed and this was the only way to obtain them?

It’s alright. I don’t have any big expectation of winning but I don’t have to buy the tickets with real money so if I win it’s good and if I don’t, well, that’s no different than my luck so far.

Signed: more hours than I want to admit to and no precursor drops and no jade tickets from those dragon chests either.

Zaklex.6308:

First off let’s get two things straight here, this thing with the candy wrappers is a RAFFLE; which is similar to a lottery, however, it is not the same as gambling, by definition, which is why any organization can have a raffle, but gambling is only allowed where it is legal.

Yes it is considered gambling. Raffles are not legal everywhere.

http://www.rafflefaq.com/are-raffles-gambling/

Roybe.5896:

Zaklex.6308:

First off let’s get two things straight here, this thing with the candy wrappers is a RAFFLE; which is similar to a lottery, however, it is not the same as gambling, by definition, which is why any organization can have a raffle, but gambling is only allowed where it is legal.

Yes it is considered gambling. Raffles are not legal everywhere.

http://www.rafflefaq.com/are-raffles-gambling/

I found this interesting. Note the bold:

noun
noun: raffle; plural noun: raffles

1.
a means of raising money by selling numbered tickets, one or some of which are subsequently drawn at random, the holder or holders of such tickets winning a prize.
synonyms: lottery

Syzygy.5031:

They’re pushing the envelope to see how far they can go with grabbing cash. It’s an area that needs more regulation. I’m sure that will eventually come as most countries have fairly comprehensive regulation of gambling and lotteries. They haven’t yet caught up with in-game real money gambling.

In game lottery for some things that have been requested back so many times, and putting tickets in the gem shop is a horrible idea. Doubly so in a game that allows minors to participate. At least online poker is the preserve of adults who should be able to know what they are getting into.

Why not give us back the original way of obtaining these?
Why not make a harder meta-achievement to earn one of these skins?
Why not give us a way to earn them in game?
Why not give them for a fixed price in the gem store?

More money. That’s why.

So much for GW2 wanting to be different.

Edit: I know full well these tickets can drop in-game. More chances in store are an attempt at getting more money from all those hoping to improve the chances of winning the lottery.

This and exactly this. My biggest problem right now is that its gambling. Gambling ruins people’s lives and here, in this video game, its now ever more so just right out in the open. I don’t like to gamble. I hate it, actually, but i never judge those that do it.

It really is more so a violation of my morals and something i’m having a hard time dealing with.

I know alot of people will overlook it and not put much thought into it. Thats fine, but what if the game started depicting something offensive to you? I don’t want to set examples, but it could be anything from the vivid emulation of kitten to the acceptance of massive illegal narcotic use. My point being, its just NOT something that should be in a game and it is NOT ok that this exists in a video game that doesn’t advertize itself as having a gambling system.

This update has taught me one thing: There are a boatload of people that have no idea what “Pay to Win” means.

On topic: Honestly, I would never be able to afford any of these skins, so this is a great opportunity for me to collect these tickets and turn them in just by simply playing the game like I always do.

Shademehr.1397:

This update has taught me one thing: There are a boatload of people that have no idea what “Pay to Win” means.

On topic: Honestly, I would never be able to afford any of these skins, so this is a great opportunity for me to collect these tickets and turn them in just by simply playing the game like I always do.

This. its a lottery but you do not have to pay to play or win. you just have the option of doing so if you do not want to chase down the candies yourself.

Like…say..if you have a job.

Full time job makes me not want to hunt candies at home. Granted ill grit my teeth and do it anyway, but it makes sense.

problem is people are going to “abuse their stupid money” and flood the raffle with tickets in some peoples minds, the idea of which I laugh at because That is no different with someone with nothing but time on his hands farming everything to death and flooding as well.

I could except this, if the wrappers weren’t purchasable in the gem store. I could totally except that you have to run the labyrinth to get the wrappers and leave at that. At that point, i’m not paying money for a chance. That would have made sense. That would have been decent.

lordkrall.7241:

Why?

How is this worse than the first time around where you could ONLY get a chance on it by using the gem store?

There’s a limited number of chances. this means, that other participants reduce your chance of winning

Hoaxintelligence.4628:

But when I (sorry about my kittenty english) go mouse over the ‘’Shiny Foil Candy Wrapper Contribution’’ you see the discription and overthere they’r saying stuff like:

The chances of receiving an item will depend on the total number of shiny
foil candy wrappers submidded.

What does this mean?

Basically – they will be picking 1000 wrappers, and giving rewards to their owners. The more wrappers you use, the bigger chance that one of them (or more) will be picked. The more wrappers other players will use, the less chance for yours to be picked. It’s theoretically possible that someone might use 1000 wrappers, and win every reward, leaving all other players with nothing.

And as for your chances… i’d expect the number of wrappers to be in millions (if not more, depending on how easy they will be to farm), mostly coming from a relatively small group of players.

Roybe.5896:

Let’s look at this discussion from a different view. Would people be agreeable to this same system for precursors? Every month x numbers of each precursor can be won by a group of people turning in some type of ‘ticket’. The ‘ticket’ could also be purchased at a minimal price in the Gem Store. Would it be better or worse if the current possibility of RNG drops for these items would be removed and this was the only way to obtain them?

You are joking, right? In this system, the chances of getting precursors would get shifted even more towards those that can obtain more “chances”. The rich would get richer, the poor would get poorer. Definitly not a good idea.

I am not a big advocate about gambling in videogames (or even in general) because it usually brings out the worst of people in terms of decision-making. Doubly so if you can put real money towards it.

Roybe.5896:

Have we come so far in accepting RNG

That’s like saying we’ve come so far in accepting inner city crime rates. Accepting it isn’t a good thing. It is a sign of people giving up on what is right and intelligent, not accepting an unavoidable reality we have to deal with.

And frankly, from what I can see, people aren’t accepting it, they are leaving. My guild of three hundred is down to 30 active members for the last four months, quite a few even longer. Even my other guild Yaks, one of the biggest guilds on the Yaks Bend Server only has 100-150 people on most nights. I was really hoping this would bring people back but I haven’t seen this recycled event bring back a single soul.

Syzygy.5031:

They’re pushing the envelope to see how far they can go with grabbing cash. It’s an area that needs more regulation. I’m sure that will eventually come as most countries have fairly comprehensive regulation of gambling and lotteries. They haven’t yet caught up with in-game real money gambling.

In game lottery for some things that have been requested back so many times, and putting tickets in the gem shop is a horrible idea. Doubly so in a game that allows minors to participate. At least online poker is the preserve of adults who should be able to know what they are getting into.

Why not give us back the original way of obtaining these?
Why not make a harder meta-achievement to earn one of these skins?
Why not give us a way to earn them in game?
Why not give them for a fixed price in the gem store?

More money. That’s why.

So much for GW2 wanting to be different.

Edit: I know full well these tickets can drop in-game. More chances in store are an attempt at getting more money from all those hoping to improve the chances of winning the lottery.

there is no logic behind your reasoning. get your facts straight.

the original way to obtain these skins was black lion chest grinding (which means key farming or spending money)

A-net stated that they dont want to go back to the season 1 meta achievements and that you shouldnt get any unique skins (or stuff like that) this way. They learned from their mistakes which is a good thing.

There is a way to earn them in game, go play the festival events and get yourself a ticket.

“Why not give them for a fixed price in the gem store?”
How can you say the reasoning behind the tickets is money grabbing and then ask for the skins to be in the gemstore? This doesnt make any sense xD

I guess the idea of these skins was, that they are very hard to obtain and not everybody should walk around with them, thats why you didnt unlock the greatsaw skin just by login in

I honestly dont understand the whining. And its not really gambling if you didnt invest something, and cmon the time you spend doing the event and having fun is hardly an investment.
I see Tequatl more of a gamble than these random shiny ticket drops.
Every time i do Tequatl i invest time and gold, for the possibility of an ascended weapon drop.
I do that now for a year and didnt get one weapon chest. NOT ONE!!
And you didnt see me whining about it on the forums. Because I know, the only way im going to get that chest, is by praying to the rng god.

Got to add that I keep seeing this a lot, whining without reasoning on the forums.
I really hope people start actually reading information instead of whining about what they didnt like last patch. The reason why a lot of things are done this way and not an other way, are most of the time already there, like past mistakes and decisions that didnt work all that well,new mechanics or a different approach.. etc.

Fixing end of page bug, you’re welcome.