Guild Wars 2

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’m seeing less issues and a lot of opinionated statements

That’s just a fancy word for “opinion”. Of course the OP expresses his opinion, what else? If he spoke for everyone, you’d belittle him for that.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I know what your issues are from having read the rest of the topic but the OP? You have some very strong opinions and you have passionate senses of what you don’t like.

Would you take him more serious if he wasn’t passionate about his opinion?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But it’s all summed up: “I don’t like the NPE and would like a reversion”.

Don’t sum it up. Read the whole post. He gave you valid reasons why he didn’t like it.

Your posts can be summed up too: “I like the NPE and wouldn’t like a reversion”.

Rogue.7856:

Way to snip what you want from what I said.

Rogue.7856:

Its not an opinion. The fact is, the reward system is nothing short of rehash and a play on words. There really is no “Reward” from the experience other than gating content that was accessible for 2 years. The “New” experience is an annoyance at best, and an insult at worst.

Read the bold text… its people like you that get me banned from these forums… please open your eyes when your reading next time. It will help.

Read my bold text.

I don’t feel insulted or annoyed by the NPE yet from what little I have played. It has stayed mostly in line with my original leveling experience way back at the start of the game, sans a few pieces here and there.

Also, don’t be insulting. I’ve been polite all through posting this last week despite really feeling like being mean. You can at least do the same.

Straylight.7529:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I’m seeing less issues and a lot of opinionated statements

That’s just a fancy word for “opinion”. Of course the OP expresses his opinion, what else? If he spoke for everyone, you’d belittle him for that.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I know what your issues are from having read the rest of the topic but the OP? You have some very strong opinions and you have passionate senses of what you don’t like.

Would you take him more serious if he wasn’t passionate about his opinion?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But it’s all summed up: “I don’t like the NPE and would like a reversion”.

Don’t sum it up. Read the whole post. He gave you valid reasons why he didn’t like it.

Your posts can be summed up too: “I like the NPE and wouldn’t like a reversion”.

You’re incorrect on all counts.

- If he spoke for everyone I’d comment he didn’t speak for me, and wouldn’t belittle him. Why would I need to bother with that?

- I don’t find his reasons match my experience thus far. Then again, I could only spare about three hours to poke around and check out a few things I was told I couldn’t do. (And could.)

- I don’t care about the NPE so much as people think I do. A reversion, I could care less about the effect of as I don’t plan on starting up a fresh new character aside from trying out a few things here and there. As such, I don’t have a chip in the pot for “revert or not”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Rogue.7856:

Way to snip what you want from what I said.

Rogue.7856:

Its not an opinion. The fact is, the reward system is nothing short of rehash and a play on words. There really is no “Reward” from the experience other than gating content that was accessible for 2 years. The “New” experience is an annoyance at best, and an insult at worst.

Read the bold text… its people like you that get me banned from these forums… please open your eyes when your reading next time. It will help.

Read my bold text.

I don’t feel insulted or annoyed by the NPE yet from what little I have played. It has stayed mostly in line with my original leveling experience way back at the start of the game, sans a few pieces here and there.

Also, don’t be insulting. I’ve been polite all through posting this last week despite really feeling like being mean. You can at least do the same.

Your not being polite by snipping quotes. That’s insulting much in the same by what the devs have done, by calling this a “Rewarding” experience.

Opinions aside, there are some bold-faced objective problems that have surfaced from their questionable implementations of the NPE. For example: The “stat burst” and the “stat slump.”

• Stat Burst: With the original leveling system, players would receive a small amount of stats each time they leveled, which made their character slowly get stronger each level. With the NPE changes, after level 4 the player will received a large chunk (or “burst”) of stats every 6 levels. This was likely to make certain thresholds feel more rewarding and fun.

• Stat Slump: The problem is that the “stat burst” power did not come out of no where. The power is redistributed from prior levels. The result is that players feel weaker than they did before during certain windows of leveling. This is being remarked as the “stat slump”, which is typically 2 or 3 levels prior to each threshold.

• The problem: If a player tries to fight a creature 1 or 2 levels higher than themselves, the “stat slump” complicates things. A level 9 creature is more powerful than a level 8; but a level 9 player is not necessarily more powerful than a level 8 one. This is because the stats come in bursts for players, but gradually for monsters. As a result, players are reporting that certain Personal Story missions are feeling much harder than they used to. This is a result of the “stat slump”, which is effectively making players feel lower level than they actually are.
  
  Furthermore, when a player levels up in an area they are downscaled in, there is a high chance they will actually become weaker. This is because downscaling will reduce their stats, and leveling up doesn’t necessarily increase them to offset it. While this has always been a possibility due to gear, it is now magnified due to base stats not increasing with each level.

Rogue.7856:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Rogue.7856:

Way to snip what you want from what I said.

Rogue.7856:

Its not an opinion. The fact is, the reward system is nothing short of rehash and a play on words. There really is no “Reward” from the experience other than gating content that was accessible for 2 years. The “New” experience is an annoyance at best, and an insult at worst.

Read the bold text… its people like you that get me banned from these forums… please open your eyes when your reading next time. It will help.

Read my bold text.

I don’t feel insulted or annoyed by the NPE yet from what little I have played. It has stayed mostly in line with my original leveling experience way back at the start of the game, sans a few pieces here and there.

Also, don’t be insulting. I’ve been polite all through posting this last week despite really feeling like being mean. You can at least do the same.

Your not being polite by snipping quotes and rewording my text in your quotes. That’s insulting much in the same by what the devs have done, by calling this a “Rewarding” experience.

Quote my entire post or don’t quote me at all. Same goes for reading my post. Your problem is you have selective reasoning.

How about you do your part in this poll: http://strawpoll.me/2555336/r

And go find a few hundred other people that agree with you. And only then will you only be able to balance the poll. Sure this is an opinion… but to say that the opinion of a vast majority doesn’t matter, is ignorance at its worst.

He never reworded your text in his quotes from you. Quit being offended over imaginary slights.

And straw polls are worthless because A) they are voluntary; B) because it’s only posted in the forum in not just this thread; C) players who are upset are more likely to vote and then use the results as proof that they are in the right.

That poll only counted when only reddit was voting! The larger sample size it now has makes it not count as much! Just ask Vayne! After all, he made the poll, so he would know when the numbers count and don’t count! And clearly, those numbers are only meaningful when it’s a much smaller sample size that only has people from reddit!

It only counts as a poll if the results are perfectly even or if the results are positive towards the feature pack! Just ask Vayne!

Rogue.7856:

Your not being polite by snipping quotes and rewording my text in your quotes. That’s insulting much in the same by what the devs have done, by calling this a “Rewarding” experience.

Maybe you’re overly sensitive. I have selective quoting done to me all the time and I haven’t gone off on a tear of personal slights.

Quote my entire post or don’t quote me at all. Same goes for reading my post. Your problem is you have selective reasoning.

No, I just have a different perspective on things. Probably because I do try to see where other people are coming from when I read, rather than merely looking at what they type out.

How about you do your part in this poll: http://strawpoll.me/2555336/r

Nah, I don’t vote. I hear it’s bad for society and is the downfall of all reason.

And go find a few hundred other people that agree with you. And only then will you only be able to balance the poll. Sure this is an opinion… but to say that the opinion of a vast majority doesn’t matter, is ignorance at its worst.

I do play with a few people who agree with me, in my guild. Most of them have said they liked it. They also said they’ll never set foot on the forums. I’m not sure why, I didn’t see it worth my time to ask.

Now I have to get back to actually playing the game and having fun. You have a great night, okay? Okay.

Rogue.7856:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Rogue.7856:

Way to snip what you want from what I said.

Rogue.7856:

Its not an opinion. The fact is, the reward system is nothing short of rehash and a play on words. There really is no “Reward” from the experience other than gating content that was accessible for 2 years. The “New” experience is an annoyance at best, and an insult at worst.

Read the bold text… its people like you that get me banned from these forums… please open your eyes when your reading next time. It will help.

Read my bold text.

I don’t feel insulted or annoyed by the NPE yet from what little I have played. It has stayed mostly in line with my original leveling experience way back at the start of the game, sans a few pieces here and there.

Also, don’t be insulting. I’ve been polite all through posting this last week despite really feeling like being mean. You can at least do the same.

Your not being polite by snipping quotes and rewording my text in your quotes. That’s insulting much in the same by what the devs have done, by calling this a “Rewarding” experience.

Quote my entire post or don’t quote me at all. Same goes for reading my post. Your problem is you have selective reasoning.

How about you do your part in this poll: http://strawpoll.me/2555336/r

And go find a few hundred other people that agree with you. And only then will you only be able to balance the poll. Sure this is an opinion… but to say that the opinion of a vast majority doesn’t matter, is ignorance at its worst.

And what would you know about opinion of majority.

Thats why this whole thread is pretty much hogwash. Including OP.

Rogue.7856:

Sure this is an opinion… but to say that the opinion of a vast majority doesn’t matter, is ignorance at its worst.

I guess people preaching the end of GW2 are right because if 1500(ish) people represent a vast majority of the player base there is no way the game can survive.

Gene Archer.8560:

That poll only counted when only reddit was voting! The larger sample size it now has makes it not count as much! Just ask Vayne! After all, he made the poll, so he would know when the numbers count and don’t count! And clearly, those numbers are only meaningful when it’s a much smaller sample size that only has people from reddit!

It only counts as a poll if the results are perfectly even or if the results are positive towards the feature pack! Just ask Vayne!

I don’t go to reddit, unless it was a link to a funny picture or video from another website I frequent. So again, selective sampling.

Behellagh.1468:

I don’t go to reddit, unless it was a link to a funny picture or video from another website I frequent. So again, selective sampling.

Sorry, forgot my sarcasm tag.

Vayne made the poll and originally only had it on reddit. During that time, the results were more even across the board, but there were only like 200 votes. Then he released the poll to everyone else and now we have the results in the link.

Despite now having a much larger sample size (1500 compared to 200), Vayne acted like the current statistics were moot since everything was all hunky dory and fit his model of what the opinions should be back when only reddit was voting.

Rogue.7856:

Well enjoy your gated content. Enjoy creating alts. They worded this as a positive change and if you enjoy gated content then this is the build for you. However I bought the game on what they sold it as.
“Most games [have a] boring grind to get to the fun stuff. We just don’t want players to grind in GW2. Noone enjoys that, noone finds it fun, we want to change the way people view combat.”
To go back on those statements 2 years later and switch it up to what is more appeasing to their Chinese market is beyond me how people will support this practice. You can easily say everything is hogwash and be oblivious all you want. If you feel that way then do something about it. I feel strongly about pushing to make this better, your pushing to blindly follow with no evidence other than calling polls hogwash, and saying its all opinionated.

How about you show me something contradicting anything I’m saying.

. . . and why should I do that?

I’m not calling polls hogwash, that’s MikaHR.

It is all opinionated, it’s how you feel about the game which matters. I feel like I enjoy most of the game which I play. When I don’t enjoy it, I don’t play. I don’t exactly have a lack of other things I could be playing. This just happens to be the most entertaining thing for the moment.

I care less about the changes and more about people who post “X is locked until level X” and are wrong, or “you can’t charm new animals until level X” . . . and are wrong. Or “you can’t harvest until level X” . . . which is wrong.

See, I like to think that if you’re going to state something as a fact, you should . . . you know, be correct.

Rogue.7856:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I care less about the changes and more about people who post “X is locked until level X” and are wrong, or “you can’t charm new animals until level X” . . . and are wrong. Or “you can’t harvest until level X” . . . which is wrong.

See, I like to think that if you’re going to state something as a fact, you should . . . you know, be correct.

Quote me anywhere I’ve said something was locked that isn’t locked… Please dig through every post of mine. Otherwise I have no idea what your taking about it, its simply hogwash.

Well it’s not all about you.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Rogue.7856:

Quote me anywhere I’ve said something was locked that isn’t locked… Please dig through every post of mine. Otherwise I have no idea what your taking about it, its simply hogwash.

Well it’s not all about you.

But it’s his thread, it has to be all about him rather than the topic.

Rogue.7856:

Your right, its about those 10,000 testers that don’t even play the game. Funny how opinions matter there, from some unknown source, but they failed to use a reliable source. Seeing as how much negativity came from this change.

It’s not about them either, what you quoted me from.

And you talked down at me about selective quoting.

Rogue.7856:

Your right, its about those 10,000 testers that don’t even play the game.

You sure about that ?

They worded this as a positive change and if you enjoy gated content then this is the build for you. However I bought the game on what they sold it as.
“Most games [have a] boring grind to get to the fun stuff. We just don’t want players to grind in GW2. Noone enjoys that, noone finds it fun, we want to change the way people view combat.”
To go back on those statements 2 years later and switch it up to what is more appeasing to their Chinese market is beyond me how people will support this practice.

Why gate the content, what is their to gain from gating content other than to create the very thing they are against.

Rogue.7856:

They worded this as a positive change and if you enjoy gated content then this is the build for you. However I bought the game on what they sold it as.
“Most games [have a] boring grind to get to the fun stuff. We just don’t want players to grind in GW2. Noone enjoys that, noone finds it fun, we want to change the way people view combat.”
To go back on those statements 2 years later and switch it up to what is more appeasing to their Chinese market is beyond me how people will support this practice.

Why gate the content, what is their to gain from gating content other than to create the very thing they are against.

It is as if they want people to buy the game, hate it and quit. This game is now worse than world of warcraft which is sad because it used to be fun.

As a veteran starting from complete scratch, starting out in this game is extremely intimidating. It is so much harder to level now. It is ALOT more costly. And everything that was once free, is now a cash sink. If I wasn’t a veteran of the game, I probably would give up as a new player.

nirvana.8245:

As a veteran starting from complete scratch, starting out in this game is extremely intimidating. It is so much harder to level now. It is ALOT more costly. And everything that was once free, is now a cash sink. If I wasn’t a veteran of the game, I probably would give up as a new player.

I feel you on that… I’m grateful to have a couple 80’s in the game… but sadly I really don’t have the motivation to level up any characters after the horrible NPE… I played from 1-20… and its just sickening what they tried to pass off as a “Rewarding” NPE… its a joke! If I was a fresh player at this point, I really don’t think I would be able to hold out from scratch. It’s really sad. What’s even more sad is players blindly supporting this garbage that’s essentially killing the game.

I’m watching people go to Archage… and I can’t even get my darn wife to jump in with me anymore… its really sad. She absolutely can’t stand it. Its really disappointing how excited I was for this patch, but after the facts were revealed… its really killed the game for me, and over a dozen of my close friends.

Rogue.7856:

They worded this as a positive change and if you enjoy gated content then this is the build for you. However I bought the game on what they sold it as.
“Most games [have a] boring grind to get to the fun stuff. We just don’t want players to grind in GW2. Noone enjoys that, noone finds it fun, we want to change the way people view combat.”
To go back on those statements 2 years later and switch it up to what is more appeasing to their Chinese market is beyond me how people will support this practice.

Why gate the content, what is their to gain from gating content other than to create the very thing they are against.

It depends on how you define grind. Leveling isn’t a grind unless it takes 30 hours and 3000 critters to smite between levels. The one to two hours per level here is no where a grind.

Skill slot and weapon slot locking was always part of the game. If it takes the same amount of play time to unlock them now as before, then there is no change in the experience, just a number as to when that happens.

The weapon skill unlocks is a trade off between unlocking all weapons skills at the same time Vs unlocking the skills on the weapon you use. Before if you get a weapon drop of a different type that you would rather use, you had to unlock those skills, now if you have skill slots 2 and 3 unlocked on your original weapon, they are unlocked on this new one automatically. Can’t say which is a better solution to the weapons/skills problem.

In another thread I said that you always felt significantly weaker leveling a new alt simply because you aren’t fully equipped with exotics and your preferred selection of traits. But like the trait change we again have a “fall guy” to point at for that reason instead of our own cloudy memories of what it was like as a true level 8 than a down-leveled 80. We are newbs in swathing clothes rather than Gods who descended from Olympus.

And the combat comment wasn’t about grind but the non-rooting attacks and dodge defense as oppose to the stand your ground and wale on a critter hoping for someone to heal you during combat.

nirvana.8245:

As a veteran starting from complete scratch, starting out in this game is extremely intimidating. It is so much harder to level now. It is ALOT more costly. And everything that was once free, is now a cash sink. If I wasn’t a veteran of the game, I probably would give up as a new player.

Please elaborate. What is a cash sink that was once free?

Behellagh.1468:

Rogue.7856:

They worded this as a positive change and if you enjoy gated content then this is the build for you. However I bought the game on what they sold it as.
“Most games [have a] boring grind to get to the fun stuff. We just don’t want players to grind in GW2. Noone enjoys that, noone finds it fun, we want to change the way people view combat.”
To go back on those statements 2 years later and switch it up to what is more appeasing to their Chinese market is beyond me how people will support this practice.

Why gate the content, what is their to gain from gating content other than to create the very thing they are against.

It depends on how you define grind. Leveling isn’t a grind unless it takes 30 hours and 3000 critters to smite between levels. The one to two hours per level here is no where a grind.

Skill slot and weapon slot locking was always part of the game. If it takes the same amount of play time to unlock them now as before, then there is no change in the experience, just a number as to when that happens.

The weapon skill unlocks is a trade off between unlocking all weapons skills at the same time Vs unlocking the skills on the weapon you use. Before if you get a weapon drop of a different type that you would rather use, you had to unlock those skills, now if you have skill slots 2 and 3 unlocked on your original weapon, they are unlocked on this new one automatically. Can’t say which is a better solution to the weapons/skills problem.

In another thread I said that you always felt significantly weaker leveling a new alt simply because you aren’t fully equipped with exotics and your preferred selection of traits. But like the trait change we again have a “fall guy” to point at for that reason instead of our own cloudy memories of what it was like as a true level 8 than a down-leveled 80. We are newbs in swathing clothes rather than Gods who descended from Olympus.

And the combat comment wasn’t about grind but the non-rooting attacks and dodge defense as oppose to the stand your ground and wale on a critter hoping for someone to heal you during combat.

Its a grind compared to what the game once was… its level gated content that has no need to be gated. They claim its to help players ease into new abilities, but at the end of the day its gated content that leaves early game experience for all players old a new limited and a push for the fun stuff later. This is exactly what they said they would not do, and after 2 years its very clear why now they decided to do this… with a blind eye to NA/EU players, and their mission… its very clear why they did this… and why they tried to paint a pretty picture and slide in this bad system…

Behellagh.1468:

nirvana.8245:

As a veteran starting from complete scratch, starting out in this game is extremely intimidating. It is so much harder to level now. It is ALOT more costly. And everything that was once free, is now a cash sink. If I wasn’t a veteran of the game, I probably would give up as a new player.

Please elaborate. What is a cash sink that was once free?

Traits, actually.

Behellagh.1468:

Rogue.7856:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Rogue.7856:

Way to snip what you want from what I said.

Rogue.7856:

Its not an opinion. The fact is, the reward system is nothing short of rehash and a play on words. There really is no “Reward” from the experience other than gating content that was accessible for 2 years. The “New” experience is an annoyance at best, and an insult at worst.

Read the bold text… its people like you that get me banned from these forums… please open your eyes when your reading next time. It will help.

Read my bold text.

I don’t feel insulted or annoyed by the NPE yet from what little I have played. It has stayed mostly in line with my original leveling experience way back at the start of the game, sans a few pieces here and there.

Also, don’t be insulting. I’ve been polite all through posting this last week despite really feeling like being mean. You can at least do the same.

Your not being polite by snipping quotes and rewording my text in your quotes. That’s insulting much in the same by what the devs have done, by calling this a “Rewarding” experience.

Quote my entire post or don’t quote me at all. Same goes for reading my post. Your problem is you have selective reasoning.

How about you do your part in this poll: http://strawpoll.me/2555336/r

And go find a few hundred other people that agree with you. And only then will you only be able to balance the poll. Sure this is an opinion… but to say that the opinion of a vast majority doesn’t matter, is ignorance at its worst.

He never reworded your text in his quotes from you. Quit being offended over imaginary slights.

And straw polls are worthless because A) they are voluntary; because it’s only posted in the forum in not just this thread; C) players who are upset are more likely to vote and then use the results as proof that they are in the right.

its all good to qualify your data, but make no mistake, there is no such thing as perfect surveying or sampling. Proffesional people can try very hard to get accurate statistics, but even then they are expected to qualify the data and present the sources.

Point is, you dont ignore data you dont like, you analyze it. Yes, consider the sources, consider what it represents, but ignoring it is foolish.

assuming everyone has a different opinion from the data you gathered is actually a more poor assumption than even anectdotal evidence.

if you ask 5 girls if they like your shirt, and they all say it sucks.
you shouldnt promise that all girls hate your shirt
at the same time you shouldnt believe that every other girl loves your shirt
however it would be something you should be concerned with, and you may have to assume, perhaps this shirt isnt liked too well, until you can get more information from somewhere else.

point is ignoring feedback because it isnt every ounce of feedback in that exists, is actually a very bad idea.

note as well that in general most of these polls that appear with the same sources, are much more balanced, many people vote who dont actually talk. the fact that that poll was 80% disatisfied with the patch is a huge as far as polls generally go, where an 10% difference is considered a fairly big deal.

Rogue.7856:

Behellagh.1468:

Rogue.7856:

They worded this as a positive change and if you enjoy gated content then this is the build for you. However I bought the game on what they sold it as.
“Most games [have a] boring grind to get to the fun stuff. We just don’t want players to grind in GW2. Noone enjoys that, noone finds it fun, we want to change the way people view combat.”
To go back on those statements 2 years later and switch it up to what is more appeasing to their Chinese market is beyond me how people will support this practice.

Why gate the content, what is their to gain from gating content other than to create the very thing they are against.

It depends on how you define grind. Leveling isn’t a grind unless it takes 30 hours and 3000 critters to smite between levels. The one to two hours per level here is no where a grind.

Skill slot and weapon slot locking was always part of the game. If it takes the same amount of play time to unlock them now as before, then there is no change in the experience, just a number as to when that happens.

The weapon skill unlocks is a trade off between unlocking all weapons skills at the same time Vs unlocking the skills on the weapon you use. Before if you get a weapon drop of a different type that you would rather use, you had to unlock those skills, now if you have skill slots 2 and 3 unlocked on your original weapon, they are unlocked on this new one automatically. Can’t say which is a better solution to the weapons/skills problem.

In another thread I said that you always felt significantly weaker leveling a new alt simply because you aren’t fully equipped with exotics and your preferred selection of traits. But like the trait change we again have a “fall guy” to point at for that reason instead of our own cloudy memories of what it was like as a true level 8 than a down-leveled 80. We are newbs in swathing clothes rather than Gods who descended from Olympus.

And the combat comment wasn’t about grind but the non-rooting attacks and dodge defense as oppose to the stand your ground and wale on a critter hoping for someone to heal you during combat.

Its a grind compared to what the game once was… its level gated content that has no need to be gated. They claim its to help players ease into new abilities, but at the end of the day its gated content that leaves early game experience for all players old a new limited and a push for the fun stuff later. This is exactly what they said they would not do, and after 2 years its very clear why now they decided to do this… with a blind eye to NA/EU players, and their mission… its very clear why they did this… and why they tried to paint a pretty picture and slide in this bad system…

its not really about china, china was one market, they also think this is a better answer to the NA market, and will pick up players they couldnt appeal to who were more used to other MMOs systems. In a lot of ways its more worrysome than them trying to appeal to a large asian market. They are trying to appeal standard mmo level grind gamers.

Behellagh.1468:

Rogue.7856:

They worded this as a positive change and if you enjoy gated content then this is the build for you. However I bought the game on what they sold it as.
“Most games [have a] boring grind to get to the fun stuff. We just don’t want players to grind in GW2. Noone enjoys that, noone finds it fun, we want to change the way people view combat.”
To go back on those statements 2 years later and switch it up to what is more appeasing to their Chinese market is beyond me how people will support this practice.

Why gate the content, what is their to gain from gating content other than to create the very thing they are against.

It depends on how you define grind. Leveling isn’t a grind unless it takes 30 hours and 3000 critters to smite between levels. The one to two hours per level here is no where a grind.

Skill slot and weapon slot locking was always part of the game. If it takes the same amount of play time to unlock them now as before, then there is no change in the experience, just a number as to when that happens.

The weapon skill unlocks is a trade off between unlocking all weapons skills at the same time Vs unlocking the skills on the weapon you use. Before if you get a weapon drop of a different type that you would rather use, you had to unlock those skills, now if you have skill slots 2 and 3 unlocked on your original weapon, they are unlocked on this new one automatically. Can’t say which is a better solution to the weapons/skills problem.

In another thread I said that you always felt significantly weaker leveling a new alt simply because you aren’t fully equipped with exotics and your preferred selection of traits. But like the trait change we again have a “fall guy” to point at for that reason instead of our own cloudy memories of what it was like as a true level 8 than a down-leveled 80. We are newbs in swathing clothes rather than Gods who descended from Olympus.

And the combat comment wasn’t about grind but the non-rooting attacks and dodge defense as oppose to the stand your ground and wale on a critter hoping for someone to heal you during combat.

grind is about perception, so its somewhat subjective, however there are some things that will make it more likely to be seen. (like short is a subjective term)

grind essentially is when you feel like you have to do a repetitive boring task in order to progress.

therefore, you can increase grind by increasing boredom, or increasing how far away progress seems.

the ways in which they changed the system give you less options, and makes you feel like the main way to progress is to level. They also outline a basic formula for leveling, which gets repetitive. Even if the time to max level is the same, for many people they increased the feeling of grind.

It’s more cost efficient to get both markets under one roof. Two Fold

Rogue.7856:

It’s more cost efficient to get both markets under one roof. Two Fold

yeah, but they didnt really even need to add the grind for china. Many chinese players who experienced both already told them the new system was not appealing. So what im saying is, its not really to get china, its because they believe this is what players all over the world prefer, which is odd because it seems the majority of players dont want it.

even look at their tests on people who left or quit, in instituting their preferences, they kind of ignore the fact that 100s of thousands of people did get past the starter experience.

phys.7689:

Behellagh.1468:

Rogue.7856:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Rogue.7856:

Way to snip what you want from what I said.

Rogue.7856:

Its not an opinion. The fact is, the reward system is nothing short of rehash and a play on words. There really is no “Reward” from the experience other than gating content that was accessible for 2 years. The “New” experience is an annoyance at best, and an insult at worst.

Read the bold text… its people like you that get me banned from these forums… please open your eyes when your reading next time. It will help.

Read my bold text.

I don’t feel insulted or annoyed by the NPE yet from what little I have played. It has stayed mostly in line with my original leveling experience way back at the start of the game, sans a few pieces here and there.

Also, don’t be insulting. I’ve been polite all through posting this last week despite really feeling like being mean. You can at least do the same.

Your not being polite by snipping quotes and rewording my text in your quotes. That’s insulting much in the same by what the devs have done, by calling this a “Rewarding” experience.

Quote my entire post or don’t quote me at all. Same goes for reading my post. Your problem is you have selective reasoning.

How about you do your part in this poll: http://strawpoll.me/2555336/r

And go find a few hundred other people that agree with you. And only then will you only be able to balance the poll. Sure this is an opinion… but to say that the opinion of a vast majority doesn’t matter, is ignorance at its worst.

He never reworded your text in his quotes from you. Quit being offended over imaginary slights.

And straw polls are worthless because A) they are voluntary; B) because it’s only posted in the forum in not just this thread; C) players who are upset are more likely to vote and then use the results as proof that they are in the right.

its all good to qualify your data, but make no mistake, there is no such thing as perfect surveying or sampling. Proffesional people can try very hard to get accurate statistics, but even then they are expected to qualify the data and present the sources.

Point is, you dont ignore data you dont like, you analyze it. Yes, consider the sources, consider what it represents, but ignoring it is foolish.

assuming everyone has a different opinion from the data you gathered is actually a more poor assumption than even anectdotal evidence.

if you ask 5 girls if they like your shirt, and they all say it sucks.
you shouldnt promise that all girls hate your shirt
at the same time you shouldnt believe that every other girl loves your shirt
however it would be something you should be concerned with, and you may have to assume, perhaps this shirt isnt liked too well, until you can get more information from somewhere else.

point is ignoring feedback because it isnt every ounce of feedback in that exists, is actually a very bad idea.

note as well that in general most of these polls that appear with the same sources, are much more balanced, many people vote who dont actually talk. the fact that that poll was 80% disatisfied with the patch is a huge as far as polls generally go, where an 10% difference is considered a fairly big deal.

But taking the results without such considerations and adjustments but only at face value does make it worthless. Since I hadn’t heard of either of the polls then it’s sampling from only those who knew about it and if it was posted in a negative thread about the changes then it’s highly likely only players who already didn’t like the changes, whether they tried them or not, voted than those who didn’t think they were all that bad.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Behellagh.1468:

nirvana.8245:

As a veteran starting from complete scratch, starting out in this game is extremely intimidating. It is so much harder to level now. It is ALOT more costly. And everything that was once free, is now a cash sink. If I wasn’t a veteran of the game, I probably would give up as a new player.

Please elaborate. What is a cash sink that was once free?

Traits, actually.

Traits were never free. It used to cost a little over three gold to unlock all of your traits.

However, traits are significantly more expensive than they used to be. It takes much longer now to unlock all of your traits, regardless of what method you use to get them. If you buy traits from the profession trainers, they are significantly more expensive than before. If you try to unlock the traits by doing the tasks, it takes significantly longer than just farming a few gold pre-April and buying traitbooks.

Sokia.3710:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Behellagh.1468:

nirvana.8245:

As a veteran starting from complete scratch, starting out in this game is extremely intimidating. It is so much harder to level now. It is ALOT more costly. And everything that was once free, is now a cash sink. If I wasn’t a veteran of the game, I probably would give up as a new player.

Please elaborate. What is a cash sink that was once free?

Traits, actually.

Traits were never free. It used to cost a little over three gold to unlock all of your traits.

However, traits are significantly more expensive than they used to be. It takes much longer now to unlock all of your traits, regardless of what method you use to get them. If you buy traits from the profession trainers, they are significantly more expensive than before. If you try to unlock the traits by doing the tasks, it takes significantly longer than just farming a few gold pre-April and buying traitbooks.

Actually, I was meaning buying those traits which are a baby cat to unlock now under the new system. I’m possibly going to throw down some gold on the one from “Gates of Arah” just because I always seem unable to get there for it.

Behellagh.1468:

But taking the results without such considerations and adjustments but only at face value does make it worthless. Since I hadn’t heard of either of the polls then it’s sampling from only those who knew about it and if it was posted in a negative thread about the changes then it’s highly likely only players who already didn’t like the changes, whether they tried them or not, voted than those who didn’t think they were all that bad.

no survey that is taken includes everyone, getting everyone is almost never the goal of a good survey.
Im not saying this survey was a paragon of balanced survey taking, but its really more lopsided than these surveys usually are.
This data is worth noting, for one of these argument threads, it got a lot of participation,
Its also way more skewed than most of these polls usually are, even with similar sources, and being posted in biased places
Im speaking more of vaynes straw poll, the other one on what people want doesnt seem as black and white.

point is, while i wouldnt say everyone hates this NPE, i would say the feedback is more negative, and more visceral than almost any other change i can remember being polled. Even if these people only represent a specific type of gamer, thats a pretty drastic response. On the other side, i have seen little data to support its benefits. CHina publishers locked down threads and banned people complaining about it. The public line was, all of these changes will be coming to NA as well, later, so its not our fault.

which anet US denied, but so far, it seems that may have been more accurate than not. Point is very little points to these changes enhancing the game, or new player experience, i wouldnt ignore this info, because i think it is saying something, even if it isnt pure, at the very least, it bears more investigation.

Sokia.3710:

Traits were never free. It used to cost a little over three gold to unlock all of your traits.

However, traits are significantly more expensive than they used to be. It takes much longer now to unlock all of your traits, regardless of what method you use to get them. If you buy traits from the profession trainers, they are significantly more expensive than before. If you try to unlock the traits by doing the tasks, it takes significantly longer than just farming a few gold pre-April and buying traitbooks.

You mean by actually playing the game’s content. But going out and doing that content takes a lot more work now than grinding paths and bosses to level up your alts.

Yes I agree that traits are now more difficult to get. May require more research on a player’s part as to what to go for first. Discourages selecting an adept II skill before selecting/unlocking multiple trait lines so you have time to do the content. Made the skill point price high, especially with the latest changes. Thankfully I’ve been hording my SP scrolls rather than blowing them all at the end of each night but since I also do map completes with alts it’s less of a problem for me.

Here’s how I see it. If you’ve been playing for a year, you have a good sense of the basics. If you’ve been playing for a year, you also have an item from your birthday that will instantaneously boost you to level 20. As far as I’m aware, boosting to level 20 will cause you to avoid most if not all of these restrictions.

If you haven’t been playing a year, then you wouldn’t have this item. But, who knows, maybe you’ll learn something new that you didn’t before.

Sure you may want to make several new characters in a short period of time and lack the correct amount of this item, or maybe you don’t want to skip levels, or maybe you feel like you shouldn’t have to rely on a single item to avoid this new content.

It could all be a little unnecessary for them to make things unavailable to more experienced players until certain levels. But for new players, I don’t see the issue. And as I’ve said, for more experienced players, you have the item alternative.

I made a new character the other day and actually rather enjoyed unlocking something new in every level. I also believe it gives new players an opportunity to become accustomed to and aware of some of the other features the game has to offer without them just being thrown to the wolves.

Tom.8029:

Here’s how I see it. If you’ve been playing for a year, you have a good sense of the basics. If you’ve been playing for a year, you also have an item from your birthday that will instantaneously boost you to level 20. As far as I’m aware, boosting to level 20 will cause you to avoid most if not all of these restrictions.

If you haven’t been playing a year, then you wouldn’t have this item. But, who knows, maybe you’ll learn something new that you didn’t before.

Sure you may want to make several new characters in a short period of time and lack the correct amount of this item, or maybe you don’t want to skip levels, or maybe you feel like you shouldn’t have to rely on a single item to avoid this new content.

It could all be a little unnecessary for them to make things unavailable to more experienced players until certain levels. But for new players, I don’t see the issue. And as I’ve said, for more experienced players, you have the item alternative.

I made a new character the other day and actually rather enjoyed unlocking something new in every level. I also believe it gives new players an opportunity to become accustomed to and aware of some of the other features the game has to offer without them just being thrown to the wolves.

the NPE doesnt end at level 20, you still have skills locked out, the trait rework is actually also part of the NPE.
Also you get one birthday booster per charachter created, per year. in the first year i made like 5 or 6 charachters, so a new player today will have to go through the same thing every time they make a new charachter. I think many players make at least 2-4 charachters in the first year of play.
so they would not have access to these things.

phys.7689:

the NPE doesnt end at level 20, you still have skills locked out, the trait rework is actually also part of the NPE.

I agree. The trait rework is basically just an NPE that we got back in April. So, really, the NPE lasts up until you reach level 80.

phys.7689:

Tom.8029:

Here’s how I see it. If you’ve been playing for a year, you have a good sense of the basics. If you’ve been playing for a year, you also have an item from your birthday that will instantaneously boost you to level 20. As far as I’m aware, boosting to level 20 will cause you to avoid most if not all of these restrictions.

If you haven’t been playing a year, then you wouldn’t have this item. But, who knows, maybe you’ll learn something new that you didn’t before.

Sure you may want to make several new characters in a short period of time and lack the correct amount of this item, or maybe you don’t want to skip levels, or maybe you feel like you shouldn’t have to rely on a single item to avoid this new content.

It could all be a little unnecessary for them to make things unavailable to more experienced players until certain levels. But for new players, I don’t see the issue. And as I’ve said, for more experienced players, you have the item alternative.

I made a new character the other day and actually rather enjoyed unlocking something new in every level. I also believe it gives new players an opportunity to become accustomed to and aware of some of the other features the game has to offer without them just being thrown to the wolves.

the NPE doesnt end at level 20, you still have skills locked out, the trait rework is actually also part of the NPE.
Also you get one birthday booster per charachter created, per year. in the first year i made like 5 or 6 charachters, so a new player today will have to go through the same thing every time they make a new charachter. I think many players make at least 2-4 charachters in the first year of play.
so they would not have access to these things.

I haven’t gotten my new character all the way through to be aware of all the changes, so I apologize for that. What skills are still locked at level 20? I remember before the update your elite skill was still locked until level 30 anyway.

Tom.8029:

phys.7689:

Tom.8029:

Here’s how I see it. If you’ve been playing for a year, you have a good sense of the basics. If you’ve been playing for a year, you also have an item from your birthday that will instantaneously boost you to level 20. As far as I’m aware, boosting to level 20 will cause you to avoid most if not all of these restrictions.

If you haven’t been playing a year, then you wouldn’t have this item. But, who knows, maybe you’ll learn something new that you didn’t before.

Sure you may want to make several new characters in a short period of time and lack the correct amount of this item, or maybe you don’t want to skip levels, or maybe you feel like you shouldn’t have to rely on a single item to avoid this new content.

It could all be a little unnecessary for them to make things unavailable to more experienced players until certain levels. But for new players, I don’t see the issue. And as I’ve said, for more experienced players, you have the item alternative.

I made a new character the other day and actually rather enjoyed unlocking something new in every level. I also believe it gives new players an opportunity to become accustomed to and aware of some of the other features the game has to offer without them just being thrown to the wolves.

the NPE doesnt end at level 20, you still have skills locked out, the trait rework is actually also part of the NPE.
Also you get one birthday booster per charachter created, per year. in the first year i made like 5 or 6 charachters, so a new player today will have to go through the same thing every time they make a new charachter. I think many players make at least 2-4 charachters in the first year of play.
so they would not have access to these things.

I haven’t gotten my new character all the way through to be aware of all the changes, so I apologize for that. What skills are still locked at level 20? I remember before the update your elite skill was still locked until level 30 anyway.

depends on what your proffesion is,
missing 2 utilities (24 and 35)
missing 1 elite (level 40 now)
f3-f4 skills (if you have these one at 22, not sure the last)
i believe 2 underwater skills
no access to minor traits till 30
no access to selectable traits till 36

Tom.8029:

I haven’t gotten my new character all the way through to be aware of all the changes, so I apologize for that. What skills are still locked at level 20? I remember before the update your elite skill was still locked until level 30 anyway.

The first trait is unlocked at 30. Elite Skills unlock at 40. The second utility unlocks at 24 and the third at 35. Elementalists unlock Earth Attunement at level 22.

Nokaru.7831:

Opinions aside, there are some bold-faced objective problems that have surfaced from their questionable implementations of the NPE. For example: The “stat burst” and the “stat slump.”

• Stat Burst: With the original leveling system, players would receive a small amount of stats each time they leveled, which made their character slowly get stronger each level. With the NPE changes, after level 4 the player will received a large chunk (or “burst”) of stats every 6 levels. This was likely to make certain thresholds feel more rewarding and fun.

• Stat Slump: The problem is that the “stat burst” power did not come out of no where. The power is redistributed from prior levels. The result is that players feel weaker than they did before during certain windows of leveling. This is being remarked as the “stat slump”, which is typically 2 or 3 levels prior to each threshold.

• The problem: If a player tries to fight a creature 1 or 2 levels higher than themselves, the “stat slump” complicates things. A level 9 creature is more powerful than a level 8; but a level 9 player is not necessarily more powerful than a level 8 one. This is because the stats come in bursts for players, but gradually for monsters. As a result, players are reporting that certain Personal Story missions are feeling much harder than they used to. This is a result of the “stat slump”, which is effectively making players feel lower level than they actually are.
  
  Furthermore, when a player levels up in an area they are downscaled in, there is a high chance they will actually become weaker. This is because downscaling will reduce their stats, and leveling up doesn’t necessarily increase them to offset it. While this has always been a possibility due to gear, it is now magnified due to base stats not increasing with each level.

This change to leveling is so fundamentally dysfunctional with how the rest of the game works that it really starts to raise questions in the confidence of ArenaNet’s actual understandings of their systems. It’s likely it isn’t the entire company’s fault though, only a few powerful (and ignorant) people.

This is such a good post, can it be typed out and mailed to Arenanet?

How would Anet go about fixing this issue (assuming they won’t revert the changes)? Could they apply this stat burst model to the monsters in the different zones and personal story so that they match up to the players’ current level?

I love the OP using strawpoll to actually conduct a straw poll. Lulz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_poll

Personally, I like the new leveling system. Of course, I still disagree with the unlocks… but we’ll see if that changes after ANet “fixes” veteran accounts.

Lyenyo.2891:

I find this insulting to new players and a complete slap in the face to the foundations this game was built on..

I thought the idea for a new player was to jump into the game, explore, discover new areas and features.. for example; when you see the skill point icon you think “ooh what’s this? I’ll make my way there and have a look” then be greeted with a challenge etc.

I feel as if a new player, instead of walking into a theme park and deciding where to go and what to do for themselves have instead walked into a theme park run by a dictator telling you what to go on first and how to have fun ‘their’ way..

You mean its turned into a contiki tour

Penarddun.6827:

This is such a good post, can it be typed out and mailed to Arenanet?

How would Anet go about fixing this issue (assuming they won’t revert the changes)? Could they apply this stat burst model to the monsters in the different zones and personal story so that they match up to the players’ current level?

Thanks for that. The fix is just undoing their redistribution of stats, spacing it out evenly every level as it was before the NPE. The effect of “stat slump” and “stat burst” is a systems issue, so not many people can identify it as the problem. Most will just say, “I found this Personal Story mission hard!” and then it will be dismissed as a “L2P” issue.

If you want to read more about this, here is where I got the information from:

• Stat Slump Stuff
• Downscaling & Stat Slump

Sadly, a lot of discussion about this is being buried by other issues.

Nokaru.7831:

Penarddun.6827:

This is such a good post, can it be typed out and mailed to Arenanet?

How would Anet go about fixing this issue (assuming they won’t revert the changes)? Could they apply this stat burst model to the monsters in the different zones and personal story so that they match up to the players’ current level?

Thanks for that. The fix is just undoing their redistribution of stats, spacing it out evenly every level as it was before the NPE. The effect of “stat slump” and “stat burst” is a systems issue, so not many people can identify it as the problem. Most will just say, “I found this Personal Story mission hard!” and then it will be dismissed as a “L2P” issue.

If you want to read more about this, here is where I got the information from:

• Stat Slump Stuff
• Downscaling & Stat Slump

Sadly, a lot of discussion about this is being buried by other issues.

Thanks for the links. This might be the most important issue with the patch. It should really have its own thread if it doesn’t already.

Just a theory. But i think this was planned. They knew at some point their game would start to dry up, and they had to break into new markets. And they are changing the game to fit different, previously untapped, markets. As the game has been getting progressively more grindy over the past year (arguebly longer).

I have little faith or trust that this is going to improve anytime soon. And i would sooner believe that this is going to get much worst. As the game is further and further being addapted to an entirely different demographic than the one they believe theyre starting to exhaust.

TehPwnerer.7215:

No gathering, dodging, trading posts, downed state, conditions, and much more for new players. All this feature pack did is make previously available things level-locked. Lol

Yep, seems like Anet is going in the right direction…. /s

I have low lvls characters but I haven’t played them since this pack. If Anet really have changed all… I have no (good) words. So stupid. There were NO problems for normal human to understand all options/skills and use them after some time. If they have done because of many letters from new players with words about that they can’t understand something and cried about it… (only my guess) Sooo… facepalm

There were some good things that came from NPE, such as account locking WvW access and sPvP. I thought the little dodge tutorial was cute as well.

Nokaru.7831:

Opinions aside, there are some bold-faced objective problems that have surfaced from their questionable implementations of the NPE. For example: The “stat burst” and the “stat slump.”

• Stat Burst: With the original leveling system, players would receive a small amount of stats each time they leveled, which made their character slowly get stronger each level. With the NPE changes, after level 4 the player will received a large chunk (or “burst”) of stats every 6 levels. This was likely to make certain thresholds feel more rewarding and fun.

• Stat Slump: The problem is that the “stat burst” power did not come out of no where. The power is redistributed from prior levels. The result is that players feel weaker than they did before during certain windows of leveling. This is being remarked as the “stat slump”, which is typically 2 or 3 levels prior to each threshold.

• The problem: If a player tries to fight a creature 1 or 2 levels higher than themselves, the “stat slump” complicates things. A level 9 creature is more powerful than a level 8; but a level 9 player is not necessarily more powerful than a level 8 one. This is because the stats come in bursts for players, but gradually for monsters. As a result, players are reporting that certain Personal Story missions are feeling much harder than they used to. This is a result of the “stat slump”, which is effectively making players feel lower level than they actually are.
  
  Furthermore, when a player levels up in an area they are downscaled in, there is a high chance they will actually become weaker. This is because downscaling will reduce their stats, and leveling up doesn’t necessarily increase them to offset it. While this has always been a possibility due to gear, it is now magnified due to base stats not increasing with each level.

This change to leveling is so fundamentally dysfunctional with how the rest of the game works that it really starts to raise questions in the confidence of ArenaNet’s actual understandings of their systems. It’s likely it isn’t the entire company’s fault though, only a few powerful (and ignorant) people.

This whole post adds in a lot of other issues. I went ahead and added it to the OP.