Guild Wars 2

This is a thread on MMORPG.com
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/397542/page/1
Talking about how Leveling really arent that interesting of a goal, after so many MMOs have this same goal in their game.

When I first started playing MMOs, yeah I thought Levels were cool and needed. But that was before I open up to the reality after playing MMOs and leveling for a while.

I realized then, just how meaningless the levels really are. Its just a visual content lock. I join a game, “FORCED” to level, just to get access to the things I enjoy as being fun. The World is small as a low level. Gets bigger as a high level.

This takes away the fun and gates it behind a lock. the key to the lock is the dreaded “you must be level X to do Y”

MMOs are now full of meaningless Leveling.

Some MMOs add large grinds to the above scenario of “you must be level X to do Y”, and yet that still only makes the situation worst.

Some MMOs have shorter grinds of this. But its still a Useless grind. No matter how shorter or harder the grind of leveling in a MMO is, its still will be a meaningless grind.

In GW2 we have a down scale system. We have a up scale system for WvW.

Why not get rid of Levels all together so we have the freedom to just have fun and play what we like.

How long are levels really suppose to keep your players entertained?

I want all content, to be for all players. No leveling content, not stupid leveling hearts.
All Content for ALL PLAYERS!!

Imagine a completely new person walking their way into Orr. Imagine the rage that would be generated by the said person on the forums. Levels serve their purpose as a tutorial with increasing difficulty.

I enjoy them — maybe this isn’t your genre of a game?

Levels are needed as “tutorials” for the game. In the case of GW2 I believe the level process should’ve stopped at 30, the level you get your elite skill and now have access to everything.

The problem with removing levels is the lack of progression, RPGs need some form of progression, it’s not a coincidence that non-RPG games, like FPS games, are adding leveling and some form of progression. Progression keeps players playing, new BiS items, new levels, new skills, something is always needed to offer some progression.

The reason why you cant just get rid of levels all together is because it gives a sense of progression and people like that . An MMO that doesn’t reward you for the time you put in wont last long .

Adine.2184:

An MMO that doesn’t reward you for the time you put in wont last long .

This. But what about the mmo that punishes you more than it rewards. You then start thinking there has to be a catch….fall privy to things like the gambler’s fallacy….and are victim to cognitive dissonance. It happens.

in “MMOs”, yeah sure i agree with you, but you are forgetting the “RPG”, hence being called “MMORPGs”

Role playing games will always have leveling, it’s the part of “getting stronger” and the adventure etc.

Levels are simply a representation of your character’s growth. It isn’t meaningless, as such, but

However, what I feel devs need to do is disguise it better; instead of simply having a numerical value that goes up, have some sort of other indication that your level has gone up. I personally can’t think of another way from the top of my head.

Another thing they could do is reward mastery of a particular weapon. As it is now, we unlock weapon skills per kill (the higher your level, the quicker they unlock). Another form of this type of progression could be using skills appropriately.

So, for example, let’s take a Warrior with a Mace. Using Skull Crack to interrupt the enemy x number of times would eventually add the additional effect of using less adrenaline / would add a 2 second Daze after the stun wears off / deal Critical Damage ect. Hell, maybe players could unlock all of these additional effects depending on what they interrupt (say, if target is moving, or target is under the effects of Immobilize ect), and then slot them as they wish.

Another example could be fighting an NPC with a particular weapon, and the NPC has a skill that you can learn off of him. Successfully countering that skill allows you to learn it. So, say an NPC has the skill Finishing Blow (deals Critical Damage if target is on the floor) for Greatsword. A successful counter would be avoiding the knockdown and then attacking him while he’s still in the animation process.

It’s progression that shows effective use of skills, and understanding how to counter said skills.

Here is the thing about levels in games like GW2.

PLAYERS want them.

Thats right. GW1 had a massive 20 levels. This wasn’t good enough for players who wanted to chest thump their WoW buddies. How can you compare your paltry 20 levels to their 70 or 80?

Believe it or not, a lot of the issues with GW2 is due to player feedback. Players railed against the need for Healers in GW1. Response: No trinity in GW2.

Adine.2184:

The reason why you cant just get rid of levels all together is because it gives a sense of progression and people like that . An MMO that doesn’t reward you for the time you put in wont last long .

What makes you think leveleling is the only way of giving people that sense of progression? In first person shooters it used to come from scoring new weapons and getting better at the game. I dare say that leveling provides the shallowest form of progression and that the real meat comes from acquiring new skills and unlocking new ways to play and experience the game. Levels only exist to offer a statistical boost which always leads to power creeping and I’m convinced that this genre would be far healthier without them. That’s why I’m so excited for EverQuest Next.

Shinky.1492:

in “MMOs”, yeah sure i agree with you, but you are forgetting the “RPG”, hence being called “MMORPGs”

Role playing games will always have leveling, it’s the part of “getting stronger” and the adventure etc.

It’s not an essential part of the ‘role-playing’. Otherwise it would have been called ‘level-playing’.

The way I see it is that levels function as a sort of extended tutorial.

It’s not like you cannot go to Orr at level 1. You totally can, just means that you’ll probably be oneshot tons of times along the way.

If anything, Guild Wars 2 has done a kitten good job of making level grinding minimal. Well, minimal as long as you’re willing to play the content that they’ve made. You know, do renown hearts and the personal story. And there is very few things that require the maximum or a very high level, unlike many other games where the content requiring higher levels amounts to majority of all content.

Ask yourself one thing: Would you be complaining about leveling if the maximum level number was 30, with level 30 unlocking the Elite skills as it does now, with access to Masterwork/Rare/Exotic being scaled to match that change? To me it seems like most of the complaints about “leveling” have to do with the levels of areas or what happens after level 30.

However, it makes sense that specific areas have specific levels, since that means that the newer playerbase is properly spread out in the world, rather than accumulating on a handful of spots with the best experience rates.

Similarly, having levels beyond 30 where you don’t really “gain” anything new in terms of gameplay makes sense from a learning perspective. Just because you have access to all the tools does not mean that you know how to use them. That takes time, and leveling is a good way to get players to spend that time.

ThiBash.5634:

It’s not an essential part of the ‘role-playing’. Otherwise it would have been called ‘level-playing’.

He’s also forgetting that there are tons of levelless RPG systems out there. Heck, Ultima Online did it for MMOs over a decade ago. Levels are not essential or even good. It’s just that players have been conditioned to want them.

What you, the OP does not realize, is that the content pacing and locking is for your own enjoyment. It’s to progress and achieve things.. if you went right to the end zone, you’d complain that the world was to small and you had nothing to do.

ThiBash.5634:

Shinky.1492:

in “MMOs”, yeah sure i agree with you, but you are forgetting the “RPG”, hence being called “MMORPGs”

Role playing games will always have leveling, it’s the part of “getting stronger” and the adventure etc.

It’s not an essential part of the ‘role-playing’. Otherwise it would have been called ‘level-playing’.

It actually is essential to RPGs.

Knighthonor.4061:

This is a thread on MMORPG.com
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/397542/page/1
Talking about how Leveling really arent that interesting of a goal, after so many MMOs have this same goal in their game.

When I first started playing MMOs, yeah I thought Levels were cool and needed. But that was before I open up to the reality after playing MMOs and leveling for a while.

I realized then, just how meaningless the levels really are. Its just a visual content lock. I join a game, “FORCED” to level, just to get access to the things I enjoy as being fun. The World is small as a low level. Gets bigger as a high level.

This takes away the fun and gates it behind a lock. the key to the lock is the dreaded “you must be level X to do Y”

MMOs are now full of meaningless Leveling.

Some MMOs add large grinds to the above scenario of “you must be level X to do Y”, and yet that still only makes the situation worst.

Some MMOs have shorter grinds of this. But its still a Useless grind. No matter how shorter or harder the grind of leveling in a MMO is, its still will be a meaningless grind.

In GW2 we have a down scale system. We have a up scale system for WvW.

Why not get rid of Levels all together so we have the freedom to just have fun and play what we like.

How long are levels really suppose to keep your players entertained?

I want all content, to be for all players. No leveling content, not stupid leveling hearts.
All Content for ALL PLAYERS!!

You are partly right but MMO’s are also build on progressing your character. It might work very well t do that without levels and armor being a big issue but the question is how.

Somehow you need to create progress. I thin it is possible by progressing other thinks like crafting, housing, claiming land if you have fractions, special armor, collecting pets and mini’s, doing achivements, unlocking content (but not based on level and armor).

Zeldain.5710:

What you, the OP does not realize, is that the content pacing and locking is for your own enjoyment. It’s to progress and achieve things.. if you went right to the end zone, you’d complain that the world was to small and you had nothing to do.

And what you don’t seem to realize is that without levels there would be no need for an endzone. Hard to go straight to an endzone when there isn’t one is there.

Levels are meaningless numbers and only there for the less intelligent players.

Conner.4702:

Zeldain.5710:

What you, the OP does not realize, is that the content pacing and locking is for your own enjoyment. It’s to progress and achieve things.. if you went right to the end zone, you’d complain that the world was to small and you had nothing to do.

And what you don’t seem to realize is that without levels there would be no need for an endzone. Hard to go straight to an endzone when there isn’t one is there.

Levels are meaningless numbers and only there for the less intelligent players.

Then all the players would have to do is find the best zone to farm and just live your entire life there farming. In a way, Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have levels by the strict definition, yes until you get to 80 you are blocked from some content, but after you get to 80 you can go back and do old content. And what we get? The amazing Queensdale champion farming train.

In a game without levels at all, the players would just have to find their own Queensdale champion farming place (there will always be a place better than the others) and bam the rest of the world is a barren wasteland.

It isn’t MMOs that have levels. It’s MMORPGs that require levels. Somewhere along the line, people started making the terms “MMO” and “MMORPG” synonymous, but they really aren’t.

Levels are a staple of the RPG genre. An RPG is a game where you take control of a character (or, occasionally, a set of characters) and you help/follow their progression as they move their way through the world. Levels, gear, talents, skills/spells, attributes/traits, money, upgrades, side quests, etc. are all part of what makes an RPG an RPG.

If you personally don’t like RPGs, then you personally are not required to play RPGs. But those of us who play and love this game do so in part because we enjoy RPGs.

Mirta.5029:

Imagine a completely new person walking their way into Orr. Imagine the rage that would be generated by the said person on the forums. Levels serve their purpose as a tutorial with increasing difficulty.

First comment pretty much got it right. A well designed game doesn’t make the levels feel like levels, it’s more of a tutorial and when designed right, won’t even feel like one but by the end of it, you’ll be smarter, stronger and better player than when you first came in. Take FFXIV for example, their leveling progress is filled with interesting tutorials, ranging from interesting story quest, guildhest which are like short dungeons to teach you about mechanics of your class and bosses you will face, wide variety of lower level dungeons with many different things. Most players, if they did them in the correct order and paid attention, come out as pretty decent players by the end of it.

Of course, tutorial and progression doesn’t have to be level base, a good example is portal but that isn’t a mmorpg and having levels is just a solid way for mmos to categorize things. I however, don’t really believe in character level cap progression though (not the same as gear progression).

Knighthonor.4061:

snip

That’s why there was a sidekicking during the beta, but then the metric slowly shifted from “fun” to “moneyz”.
How it was thought

Btw at least (for now) it’s not too difficult to earn levels in this mmorpg. Gears are in a far worse situation.

Mirta.5029:

Imagine a completely new person walking their way into Orr. Imagine the rage that would be generated by the said person on the forums. Levels serve their purpose as a tutorial with increasing difficulty.

Orr is at the other side of the world, don’t you think when people get there they would have at least killed some other mobs, or… I dunno, did the story that actually leads you there?

I agree with OP, taking away levels would’ve been an interesting idea. It certainly would make rolling a new character less tedious, cause you wouldn’t have to level them up from 1-80.

A.NET should sell an instant level 80 scroll that costs 3000 gems.

Shinky.1492:

in “MMOs”, yeah sure i agree with you, but you are forgetting the “RPG”, hence being called “MMORPGs”

Role playing games will always have leveling, it’s the part of “getting stronger” and the adventure etc.

MMORPG are a type of MMO.

Also RPG doesnt mean Levels.

the first MMOs didnt even have Levels and did just fine.

The excuse that its a tutorial is just that, an excuse.
Because people learn at different paces. Practice makes perfect. Not this. If somebody already know how to play the game, why would they need to level 1-80 to relearn it again? Doesnt make sense. Its always been used as a time sink in MMOs to gate content. But if that game doesnt have a sub, whats the point of time sinks like this.

Fun alone should be the time sink.

When content is blocked by levels, it become a requirement to level to access that feature. this in itself force (or forcibly encourage, which is not good) players to reach high levels quicker to unlock all the features they enjoy.

Levels do more harm in content speed consumption than it solves.

GW2 didn’t originally have levels in it’s design. Alpha feedback changed this.

GW2 also originally didn’t have hearts either. Alpha feedback changed that too..

So you tell me…who wants the arbitrary numbers (ie levels) and road signs (ie hearts)? Maybe you or I don’t care, but the majority obviously seem to.

Even pencil-and-paper RPGs didn’t necessarily have levels. White Wolf RPGs like Vampire the Masquerade didn’t have the concept of character levels.

But most RPGs will have some sort of numerical representation of “getting better at something”. Masquerade may not have levels for your character, but they have levels for individual abilities/stats. FFX had that sphere grid thingy for you to gain stat bonuses and new abilities. People like to use GW1 as an example of a game with low level cap, but even GW1 had factions that required some form of “leveling up”, and these took much more effort to max out than the character level.

Character Levels used to mean something significant for character progression in RPGs. But in the post-WoW era, devs made gaining levels in MMOs easier so players won’t get the sense of being “stuck”.

Mirta.5029:

Imagine a completely new person walking their way into Orr. Imagine the rage that would be generated by the said person on the forums. Levels serve their purpose as a tutorial with increasing difficulty.

This is a totally wrong reason. Tutorials exist for that matter. GW2 is not a hard game at all to master.

We all know that it takes 80 levels to learn how to press 5 buttons.

Conner.4702:

Zeldain.5710:

What you, the OP does not realize, is that the content pacing and locking is for your own enjoyment. It’s to progress and achieve things.. if you went right to the end zone, you’d complain that the world was to small and you had nothing to do.

And what you don’t seem to realize is that without levels there would be no need for an endzone. Hard to go straight to an endzone when there isn’t one is there.

Levels are meaningless numbers and only there for the less intelligent players.

Doesn’t work that way. Players HAVE to be directed, because YES there would be an end zone no matter what – whichever one had the combination of “easy” and “best loot” would be where all players go and the rest of the world ignored completely.

Hell, where do most level cap players spend time in GW2? The answer is not the world, even though the lower zones are “just as good” for them.

Smart game designers know what’s up. Dumb players think levels aren’t necessary.

MMOs without levels: Age of Wulin, Firefall. You unlock stuff while you play but you dont have an actual level to think of it.

I’m running out of time, so I’ll try to keep this short. Levels are good because:

#1: It provides a sense of accomplishment to what you attempt.
#2: Watching characters grow in strength provides a connection to them.
#3: It makes for a simple scale to segment abilities so players don’t get overloaded when starting. But overloaded from enemy abilities, and from player abilities.

Fungalfoot.7213:

ThiBash.5634:

It’s not an essential part of the ‘role-playing’. Otherwise it would have been called ‘level-playing’.

He’s also forgetting that there are tons of levelless RPG systems out there. Heck, Ultima Online did it for MMOs over a decade ago. Levels are not essential or even good. It’s just that players have been conditioned to want them.

One issue with level-less systems is that people can easily spread themselves too thin.

Mirta.5029:

Imagine a completely new person walking their way into Orr. Imagine the rage that would be generated by the said person on the forums. Levels serve their purpose as a tutorial with increasing difficulty.

Pretty much this.

Level gate content allows the developers to increase challenge incrementally to match increasing (hopefully) player familiarity and skill.

digiowl.9620:

Fungalfoot.7213:

ThiBash.5634:

It’s not an essential part of the ‘role-playing’. Otherwise it would have been called ‘level-playing’.

He’s also forgetting that there are tons of levelless RPG systems out there. Heck, Ultima Online did it for MMOs over a decade ago. Levels are not essential or even good. It’s just that players have been conditioned to want them.

One issue with level-less systems is that people can easily spread themselves too thin.

Or the complete opposite, since you don’t have to deal with different levels, you find the best place to farm/grind for mateirals/loot whatever and go only there (similar to the Queensdale Champion train)

The RPG model is a successful one. If you don’t like RPGs, don’t play an RPG.

I wouldn’t say levels are meaningless. They are somewhat arbitrary but they do have a purpose, which is to give players a sense of progression.

They’re not the only way to do that, even in RPGs. As has been pointed out there are many games without levels. For example in Ultima Online you didn’t have character levels (at least not when I played it 10+ years ago). Instead each skill had it’s own ‘level’ system and you progressed through it by using that skill. The more you used a sword the better you became with one.

But ultimately it comes to the same thing. Even though the entire map was open and the game would never say “Sorry, you’re not ready for this area yet” you couldn’t just go straight to the hardest dungeon and win, the monsters would wipe the floor with you. You had to start small and build up your skill with your weapon of choice first. Which was basically the same as levelling.

That system IMO had 2 big flaws:

• Firstly there was no incentive for most players to go to most areas. They’d go to the few spots which let them grind skills the most efficiently and then to the most profitable ones to use them. The only people you saw in most of the map were ones who didn’t know what those efficient spots were.
• Secondly there was no way to tell you what you were ready for. If I came across a dungeon I hadn’t done before the only way I could find out if I could handle it was to go in and see how long it took me to die. In one case this lead to me facing a huge demon that filled 1/2 my screen and killed me before the attack animation had even started. I was never able to get back in to my corpse so I lost everything I was carrying at the time.

The only way I know of to get around that is to completely remove progression and make it so all players can do everything – so a brand new character could kill the final boss.

Believe it or not I’ve tried that too. I used cheat codes to make a Morrowind character at max level with all the relevant stats and equipment, I got off the boat, walked to the middle of the volcano and killed the final boss. (I also made a super-powered version who could kill Vivec the ‘living god’.)

But you know what? Playing like that made the game really boring. Even when I did play through the main storyline instead of skipping everything it just wasn’t the same because nothing felt like a challenge, there was none of that sense of achievement from doing something you know you couldn’t have done earlier on.

As I said that doesn’t have to come from levelling. There are a lot of ways it can be done and it’s probably a matter of personal preference which one/s are best. But you need something, you need a goal to work towards.

(Edit: Actually you can get games with no built in progression, a lot of sandbox games are like that with everything accessible from the start. But then the fun usually comes from the player setting their own goals and challenges and you need a whole different game for that to really work.)

The thing is players like progression and players want progression. Leveling is a form of progression. A lot of times what players say they want is not what they actually want.

The levelling system for a new player’s first character is fine. The sense of achievement is not. Alts that are created after achieving level 80 should receive some sort of permanent XP buff until 80. I doubt most people actually enjoy a repeated levelling experience, especially if they are playing as the same race (or dare I add profession). Most people who reach level 80 and start a new alt are familiar with the combat system and do not need 79 levels to learn how to play a new profession. That being said, reaching level 80 does not guarantee that a person has a good understanding of their profession (warrior + guardian GS in PvE = get through almost all content).

Perhaps letting players change profession at 80? IDK the solution but the levelling system is putting me off from being an active player, especially when I have a bunch of alts that are 80 already.

Xcom.1926:

The thing is players like progression and players want progression. Leveling is a form of progression. A lot of times what players say they want is not what they actually want.

As has been said many times in this thread, removing levels doesn’t mean removing progression; the progression comes from other places.

mjharrison.3209:

Xcom.1926:

The thing is players like progression and players want progression. Leveling is a form of progression. A lot of times what players say they want is not what they actually want.

As has been said many times in this thread, removing levels doesn’t mean removing progression; the progression comes from other places.

But then you just have a different type of level. Instead of gaining exp per action you might unlock stat/skill points per challenge but that would direct playstyle in a certain direction and get too much “QQ I wanna just do open world kill lvl 2 rabbit 3 million times and hit cap”. It all boils down to the same thing under a different name tho anyway.

Yup. Why should Frodo go through the whole journey to throw that darn ring. He should be allowed to fly on dumbo the elephant straight to Mount Doom and save himself being dragged around in a journey with those stinky, smelly men, little men and that blonde dainty pretty boy.

Reisinger.4203:

The levelling system for a new player’s first character is fine. The sense of achievement is not. Alts that are created after achieving level 80 should receive some sort of permanent XP buff until 80. I doubt most people actually enjoy a repeated levelling experience, especially if they are playing as the same race (or dare I add profession). Most people who reach level 80 and start a new alt are familiar with the combat system and do not need 79 levels to learn how to play a new profession. That being said, reaching level 80 does not guarantee that a person has a good understanding of their profession (warrior + guardian GS in PvE = get through almost all content).

Perhaps letting players change profession at 80? IDK the solution but the levelling system is putting me off from being an active player, especially when I have a bunch of alts that are 80 already.

I read somewhere that the first player to reach the level cap did it exclusively through crafting. While I never went from the tutorial to cap that way, in theory you can easily max an alt without ever leaving your home city. I guess they recently tweaked the xp you get from crafting but they also give out instant-level-20 scrolls which also give alts a boost. So if you plan for it you can still reach level cap without ever swinging a weapon after the tutorial “boss fight.” Hey, tag along with some other players and you can probably walk through the tutorial without getting into a fight too.

Beyond that, you can level about halfway to cap just by going around to the various 1-15 areas, alternate that with crafting and you can easily reach the cap without tackling the harder content. Or just join the Queensdale champion zerg and keep at it until you reach whatever level you want. There are a lot of different ways to do it, and more content than it would take to level two characters to cap. None of my 80s had explored more than a third of the map before they hit the cap, Anet could double max level and I’d still hit the cap before going to Orr.

Compared to old school MMOs where you grind for a month or two to gain one level, this is a red eye flight directly to 80.

Danikat.8537:

(Edit: Actually you can get games with no built in progression, a lot of sandbox games are like that with everything accessible from the start. But then the fun usually comes from the player setting their own goals and challenges and you need a whole different game for that to really work.)

Even sandbox games have some form of it . The Sims for instance has skill challenges and collections for each sim that when completed there is some kind of bonus involved with it as well as "lifetime reward points " for achiving wants . Then of course there are the player made challenges like the "legacy challenge " or "100 baby challenge " which have rules and point systems in place . So even the sandbox player needs some sort of goal to keep playing the game

Mirta.5029:

Levels serve their purpose as a tutorial with increasing difficulty.

I agree with this a bit. Plus it makes you explore all/some the areas in the world, so that can be cool the first time around – first time around. There should be something… where once you’ve leveled to max level, when you create a new character you can choose between leveling it (if you enjoy doing that) and just getting a max level’ed character.
Though this really defeats the purpose of having all the different story lines (choice in story lines, order of whispers/vigil/…), then again those that want to do that can re-level (have the choice to).

Knighthonor.4061:

This is a thread on MMORPG.com
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/397542/page/1
Talking about how Leveling really arent that interesting of a goal, after so many MMOs have this same goal in their game.

When I first started playing MMOs, yeah I thought Levels were cool and needed. But that was before I open up to the reality after playing MMOs and leveling for a while.

I realized then, just how meaningless the levels really are. Its just a visual content lock. I join a game, “FORCED” to level, just to get access to the things I enjoy as being fun. The World is small as a low level. Gets bigger as a high level.

This takes away the fun and gates it behind a lock. the key to the lock is the dreaded “you must be level X to do Y”

MMOs are now full of meaningless Leveling.

Some MMOs add large grinds to the above scenario of “you must be level X to do Y”, and yet that still only makes the situation worst.

Some MMOs have shorter grinds of this. But its still a Useless grind. No matter how shorter or harder the grind of leveling in a MMO is, its still will be a meaningless grind.

In GW2 we have a down scale system. We have a up scale system for WvW.

Why not get rid of Levels all together so we have the freedom to just have fun and play what we like.

How long are levels really suppose to keep your players entertained?

I want all content, to be for all players. No leveling content, not stupid leveling hearts.
All Content for ALL PLAYERS!!

Leveling in GW2 is meaningless, I will agree there but levelling in MMO’s has a very relevant purpose if designed correctly.
What makes me laugh is how GW2 likes to promote its living breathing world and living story… levelling should be geared to such life traits… in RL I cant do certain things until I have learned them or matured enough to engage in things.. MMO levelling works along the same lines except in GW2 its falls way short of exciting.

I mean I can gather carrots all day today and gain say 24XP per carrot at lvl 1.. within a few hours I am lvl 2 or 3 just by pulling carrots. Add to the fact that same carrot begins to increase in XP value as I become more experienced in gathering carrots.. makes levelling a real mockery imo. Levelling should be a goal that is engaging, has challenge and helps to immerse you in the game… GW2 lacks that greatly imo.. and now we even get skill point scrolls from rewards, chests etc meaning even those skill unlocks through level advancement are shot down before the player even begins… I have over 250 in the bank.. roll a new toon and I have all skills already unlocked and ready to go before I am anywhere near to unlocking the tiers.

In short I agree with you in GW2 levelling is sloppy, far too easy and therefore meaningless.. in better MMO though I have to disagree a liitle.

So far, the only MMO I can think of (feel free to correct me if there are others) that doesn’t have numeric levels would be The Secret World, and even then they have a level-like progression system where you have an experience bar and get ability points every 1/3 of a ‘level’ to buy new skills. You also get a skill point on leveling up, which you can use to upgrade weapon or talisman (essentially gear) skills. Higher weapon/talisman levels let you use higher-level equipment. Then, it has markers on every mob and quest that tell you the difficulty level of the mob/quest in question in relation to your gear, if I recall correctly.

That said, The Secret World is specifically designed with that in mind – a lot of the bigger quests have you running around the area where you can pick up side missions, and when you’re done you usually found more quest givers you can help along the way. I guess no levels could work in GW2, since Anet already has the scout system in place, that could fill in for the guiding-around. I don’t think ANet could just shoehorn it in one year after release, though, it would be a PR nightmare.

TL;DR it’s probably possible – The Secret World has done it before – but it probably would cause a lot of backlash.

A couple years before launch there was heavy speculation that the game would have no maximum level, but a plateau of power after a certain point.

In reality, this is exactly what leveling is in MMOs, and certainly what it is in GW2. They just needlessly put a number on it. Leveling is a measure of time for the player, and I’m sure a numerical scale is sometimes difficult to work with.

Another reason for it is to have a visual indicator of when certain features become available. 30 would have been a great stopping point as someone pointed out. Not only would it be logical, but it would give the illusion of massive amounts of end game content

If you don’t want a game which forces you to “level up” your character, if you want your character to be able to do anything from the start and everything to be dependent only on your skill, play Magicka. Not a MMO, though very interesting game in design and ideas. Very funny too, and quite difficult I wish to see a MMO with that spellcasting design, that would be Awesome :-)

Leveling is necessary. But it need not be a long grind. And rather than feeling excluded until I hit the level cap, I instead feel I’ve earned the right to be where I am. Personally, I don’t think 80 levels are necessary, especially in a game that allows PvP & WvW from level 2. But, it’s a nice feeling of accomplishment knowing I’ve fought my way through the world ankitten ow ready for what awaits me in Orr.

As someone above mentioned, leveling is also a tutorial in a sense. Starting out of the box with an 80 you’d have no idea how to play it. You’ve feel overwhelmed and instead of easing into new skills and traits to figure out how they synergize, you’d be given the entire menu and forced to figure it out. It doesn’t sound like a fun way of doing it.

Plus, I like the feeling that I’ve made my character, it wasn’t just handed to me. For people who like the storylines and like to RP, starting with nothing and building your hero is important.

GW2’s leveling process isn’t as annoying as other games. You can be level thirty in a level one through ten zone and still obtain the exact experience. Also the leveling process plateau’s after thirty, meaning level forty-one to forty-two will be the same experience required as level sixty-seven to sixty-eight. Also makes it easier for them to manage instead of getting one million exp to level, you need now ten million.

Also it prevent players from entering areas with less personal experience, more along the lines of skill rather than, say, the welcome bears in WoW…if anyone remembers that fun piece of frustration and discovery.

Leveling is artificial progression, then again anything technically can be as well. Visiting the new zones and collecting rare matierals and equipment is what it’s all about. It’s rather tough capturing the adventures of so-and-so going from a stable boy, to squire and to knighthood.

I think anet did a fine job with the leveling system. It’s simple, quick and you have multiple ways of leveling (crafting, exploration, Wv3). Even outside RPG’s have leveling, like the immensely popular Skyrim. Leveling is also a learning process for players both new and old to the MMO genre, by the time you reach Orr, you’ll have a knowledgeable grasp on the game and it’s mechanics to know what’s happen, where to go, how to react, noticing small details that will lead to treasure chests, material nodes or shortcuts. A brand new player wanting to play in the Orr zone will probably not play the game because of the difference in difficulty facing a veteran abomination as opposed to a few bandits.

The leveling in the game is here and doesn’t look like it’s going to disappear anytime soon.