Guild Wars 2

Levels segregate the game world.

People cant enjoy the full of the game world without leveling first.

if players take their time, they miss out on all the cool things happening all over the place.

So no point not rushing to max level. but that leads to burnout since the skill/trait system doesnt reward well for leveling between 1-30, 30-40, 40-60, 60-80.

I’m going to have to disagree. Levels in GW2 are much less important than in most other RPG systems. GW2 does an excellent job with scaling, as well, in most areas.

Knighthonor.4061:

Levels segregate the game world.

People cant enjoy the full of the game world without leveling first.

if players take their time, they miss out on all the cool things happening all over the place.

So no point not rushing to max level. but that leads to burnout since the skill/trait system doesnt reward well for leveling between 1-30, 30-40, 40-60, 60-80.

you know you can get to lvl 80 in ONE day through crafting right? costs a bit of gold, but saves tons of time

it may be done better than other games, but that still doesnt make it good to segregate the game world for players that arent max level.

its bad game design. no point in time sinks like this when there is no timely sub in this game.

Knighthonor.4061:

Levels segregate the game world.

People cant enjoy the full of the game world without leveling first.

if players take their time, they miss out on all the cool things happening all over the place.

So no point not rushing to max level. but that leads to burnout since the skill/trait system doesnt reward well for leveling between 1-30, 30-40, 40-60, 60-80.

Would you like to eliminate levels altogether? Would you like there to be a server where you could instantly be level 80? Would you like to be temporarily leveled up when entering a higher level zone?

You didn’t provide a single solution. All you did was complain, and you didn’t suggest much of anything. Levels are a lot less stressful in this game than in others. This must be your first MMORPG. So go play WoW, Rift, Aion, or Runes of Magic and then try to compare the leveling process. I personally think Anet did a very good job on the level system, even though I hate not being able to one hit things.

Knighthonor.4061:

it may be done better than other games, but that still doesnt make it good to segregate the game world for players that arent max level.

its bad game design. no point in time sinks like this when there is no timely sub in this game.

Leveling is a core mechanic of the RPG system. I don’t understand your issue with the concept. Are you familiar with RPGs?

ETA: I’m also in agreement with Galtrix, above. What is your proposed solution?

Galtrix.7369:

Knighthonor.4061:

Levels segregate the game world.

People cant enjoy the full of the game world without leveling first.

if players take their time, they miss out on all the cool things happening all over the place.

So no point not rushing to max level. but that leads to burnout since the skill/trait system doesnt reward well for leveling between 1-30, 30-40, 40-60, 60-80.

Would you like to eliminate levels altogether? Would you like there to be a server where you could instantly be level 80? Would you like to be temporarily leveled up when entering a higher level zone?

You didn’t provide a single solution. All you did was complain, and you didn’t suggest much of anything. Levels are a lot less stressful in this game than in others. This must be your first MMORPG. So go play WoW, Rift, Aion, or Runes of Magic and then try to compare the leveling process. I personally think Anet did a very good job on the level system, even though I hate not being able to one hit things.

I would like Traits to not be bound to level system. I want to have access to all traits at any level. and be able to go anywhere and do all the events that I discover.

That doesnt mean gear and better models cant still be tied to levels, but thats optional grind.

I want full access to all the gameplay. I dont care about gear grind, but some people do. so leave that for the level grind fans and gear grind fans to do their grind for.

But dont limit the gameplay behind level gates. I have 2 80s. rest of my alts are in their 30s because thats when they unlock their elites. I simply want the freedom to play and have fun. I am not the type of person that needs somebody else to guide and define what is fun to me. So level gates dont make the game more fun to me. just more grindy.

Knighthonor.4061:

Galtrix.7369:

Knighthonor.4061:

Levels segregate the game world.

People cant enjoy the full of the game world without leveling first.

if players take their time, they miss out on all the cool things happening all over the place.

So no point not rushing to max level. but that leads to burnout since the skill/trait system doesnt reward well for leveling between 1-30, 30-40, 40-60, 60-80.

Would you like to eliminate levels altogether? Would you like there to be a server where you could instantly be level 80? Would you like to be temporarily leveled up when entering a higher level zone?

You didn’t provide a single solution. All you did was complain, and you didn’t suggest much of anything. Levels are a lot less stressful in this game than in others. This must be your first MMORPG. So go play WoW, Rift, Aion, or Runes of Magic and then try to compare the leveling process. I personally think Anet did a very good job on the level system, even though I hate not being able to one hit things.

I would like Traits to not be bound to level system. I want to have access to all traits at any level. and be able to go anywhere and do all the events that I discover.

That doesnt mean gear and better models cant still be tied to levels, but thats optional grind.

I want full access to all the gameplay. I dont care about gear grind, but some people do. so leave that for the level grind fans and gear grind fans to do their grind for.

But dont limit the gameplay behind level gates. I have 2 80s. rest of my alts are in their 30s because thats when they unlock their elites. I simply want the freedom to play and have fun. I am not the type of person that needs somebody else to guide and define what is fun to me. So level gates dont make the game more fun to me. just more grindy.

Level gates are in place to allow people to understand the class better in a slower manner rather than overload them with information at the very start.. Time gates also allow a sense of progression of your character rather than no progression at all.

Guhracie.3419:

Knighthonor.4061:

it may be done better than other games, but that still doesnt make it good to segregate the game world for players that arent max level.

its bad game design. no point in time sinks like this when there is no timely sub in this game.

Leveling is a core mechanic of the RPG system. I don’t understand your issue with the concept. Are you familiar with RPGs?

ETA: I’m also in agreement with Galtrix, above. What is your proposed solution?

I hate when people say this. when RPGs didnt even have levels at first. Tabletops—>MUDs—→First MMORPGs

again levels wasnt always part of RPGs. so thats not something that can define something that wasnt always part of them.

Suddenflame.2601:

Knighthonor.4061:

Galtrix.7369:

Knighthonor.4061:

Levels segregate the game world.

People cant enjoy the full of the game world without leveling first.

if players take their time, they miss out on all the cool things happening all over the place.

So no point not rushing to max level. but that leads to burnout since the skill/trait system doesnt reward well for leveling between 1-30, 30-40, 40-60, 60-80.

Would you like to eliminate levels altogether? Would you like there to be a server where you could instantly be level 80? Would you like to be temporarily leveled up when entering a higher level zone?

You didn’t provide a single solution. All you did was complain, and you didn’t suggest much of anything. Levels are a lot less stressful in this game than in others. This must be your first MMORPG. So go play WoW, Rift, Aion, or Runes of Magic and then try to compare the leveling process. I personally think Anet did a very good job on the level system, even though I hate not being able to one hit things.

I would like Traits to not be bound to level system. I want to have access to all traits at any level. and be able to go anywhere and do all the events that I discover.

That doesnt mean gear and better models cant still be tied to levels, but thats optional grind.

I want full access to all the gameplay. I dont care about gear grind, but some people do. so leave that for the level grind fans and gear grind fans to do their grind for.

But dont limit the gameplay behind level gates. I have 2 80s. rest of my alts are in their 30s because thats when they unlock their elites. I simply want the freedom to play and have fun. I am not the type of person that needs somebody else to guide and define what is fun to me. So level gates dont make the game more fun to me. just more grindy.

Level gates are in place to allow people to understand the class better in a slower manner rather than overload them with information at the very start.. Time gates also allow a sense of progression of your character rather than no progression at all.

Not everybody needs levels to teach them how to play. thats when skill come in. people learn differently and in different speeds.

holding everybody to the same method grind just to teach them something they may already know is not fun. hence why we have SPvP and WvW that already scale up players. But scaled up players in WvW dont have traits and gear to stand a chance.

Levels are tutorial argument been debunked for years. Even in this game, with the scaling like stated above.

Players should learn by playing. Not by being forced to level.

Originally MMOs didnt have levels. so whats your argument on that?

Why don’t we just delete the whole reward system? All skills/traits at lvl 1 or being instant lvl 80, 3 exotic drops from every mob, legendarys for 5g a piece…

Knighthonor.4061:

Guhracie.3419:

Knighthonor.4061:

it may be done better than other games, but that still doesnt make it good to segregate the game world for players that arent max level.

its bad game design. no point in time sinks like this when there is no timely sub in this game.

Leveling is a core mechanic of the RPG system. I don’t understand your issue with the concept. Are you familiar with RPGs?

ETA: I’m also in agreement with Galtrix, above. What is your proposed solution?

I hate when people say this. when RPGs didnt even have levels at first. Tabletops—>MUDs—->First MMORPGs

again levels wasnt always part of RPGs. so thats not something that can define something that wasnt always part of them.

But there’s a reason it’s by far the more common mechanism, and there’s certainly a reason why it’s utilized almost exclusively in the genre we are speaking about, which is MMORPGs.

Knighthonor.4061:

it may be done better than other games, but that still doesnt make it good to segregate the game world for players that arent max level.

its bad game design. no point in time sinks like this when there is no timely sub in this game.

Check out other RPG’s and such. They do the exact same thing. If you’re looking for dynamic leveling then the only game series I have seen been doing that is Elder Scrolls. Level barriers have existed in RPG’s for the longest time and are a core component.

Classical leveling is anachronistic and sets a bad precedent if you are going to try something modern like, oh, horizontal progression or something less tired than the classical gear grind. What you could have in its place is a tutorial that would prepare you gear, gameplay, and lore wise and then would launch you on to your adventures in the world of Tyria.

Again, the vertical grind of classical leveling sets an unnecessary and bad precedent in a game that is not about grinding. Prior to launch, at least, GW2 was not supposed to be about grinding as Anet simply did not make grindy games. Removing classical leveling would have fit the game perfectly.

Raine.1394:

Classical leveling is anachronistic and sets a bad precedent if you are going to try something modern like, oh, horizontal progression or something less tired than the classical gear grind. What you could have in its place is a tutorial that would prepare you gear, gameplay, and lore wise and then would launch you on to your adventures in the world of Tyria.

Again, the vertical grind of classical leveling sets an unnecessary and bad precedent in a game that is not about grinding. Prior to launch, at least, GW2 was not about grinding as Anet simply did not make grindy games.

Leveling cannot be old-fashioned while it is still the primary “fashion” around which games are designed. Further, GW2 was never promoted as a game that would not have leveling in it.

Guhracie.3419:

Raine.1394:

Classical leveling is anachronistic and sets a bad precedent if you are going to try something modern like, oh, horizontal progression or something less tired than the classical gear grind. What you could have in its place is a tutorial that would prepare you gear, gameplay, and lore wise and then would launch you on to your adventures in the world of Tyria.

Again, the vertical grind of classical leveling sets an unnecessary and bad precedent in a game that is not about grinding. Prior to launch, at least, GW2 was not about grinding as Anet simply did not make grindy games.

Leveling cannot be old-fashioned while it is still the primary “fashion” around which games are designed. Further, GW2 was never promoted as a game that would not have leveling in it.

Vertical progression is old and tired, as are all the players forced to ride the power treadmill. Classical leveling is nothing other than VP. GW2 was marketed as a “new” kind of MMO that was not about grind. Removing old-fashioned leveling would have fit perfectly.

Edit: Buggy whips are currently the primary method of controlling a horse attached to buggy—a trip downtown in any major city will tell you that. And, yes, something can be dominant and primary and old-fashioned.

Guhracie.3419:

Knighthonor.4061:

Guhracie.3419:

Knighthonor.4061:

it may be done better than other games, but that still doesnt make it good to segregate the game world for players that arent max level.

its bad game design. no point in time sinks like this when there is no timely sub in this game.

Leveling is a core mechanic of the RPG system. I don’t understand your issue with the concept. Are you familiar with RPGs?

ETA: I’m also in agreement with Galtrix, above. What is your proposed solution?

I hate when people say this. when RPGs didnt even have levels at first. Tabletops—>MUDs—->First MMORPGs

again levels wasnt always part of RPGs. so thats not something that can define something that wasnt always part of them.

But there’s a reason it’s by far the more common mechanism, and there’s certainly a reason why it’s utilized almost exclusively in the genre we are speaking about, which is MMORPGs.

There is also reason that 2 faction games been common. Just because its common doesnt mean its whats best. Developers are conservative and like to reuse ideas of the past. thats why. it wasnt always common. like stated, most RPGs didnt have levels. going back as far as tabletop and into computer gaming. early RPGs didnt have levels. Levels became “the thing” after Everquest 1. That doesnt mean it has to be the set in stone way to make MMOs.

Knighthonor.4061:

Suddenflame.2601:

Knighthonor.4061:

Galtrix.7369:

Knighthonor.4061:

Levels segregate the game world.

People cant enjoy the full of the game world without leveling first.

if players take their time, they miss out on all the cool things happening all over the place.

So no point not rushing to max level. but that leads to burnout since the skill/trait system doesnt reward well for leveling between 1-30, 30-40, 40-60, 60-80.

Would you like to eliminate levels altogether? Would you like there to be a server where you could instantly be level 80? Would you like to be temporarily leveled up when entering a higher level zone?

You didn’t provide a single solution. All you did was complain, and you didn’t suggest much of anything. Levels are a lot less stressful in this game than in others. This must be your first MMORPG. So go play WoW, Rift, Aion, or Runes of Magic and then try to compare the leveling process. I personally think Anet did a very good job on the level system, even though I hate not being able to one hit things.

I would like Traits to not be bound to level system. I want to have access to all traits at any level. and be able to go anywhere and do all the events that I discover.

That doesnt mean gear and better models cant still be tied to levels, but thats optional grind.

I want full access to all the gameplay. I dont care about gear grind, but some people do. so leave that for the level grind fans and gear grind fans to do their grind for.

But dont limit the gameplay behind level gates. I have 2 80s. rest of my alts are in their 30s because thats when they unlock their elites. I simply want the freedom to play and have fun. I am not the type of person that needs somebody else to guide and define what is fun to me. So level gates dont make the game more fun to me. just more grindy.

Level gates are in place to allow people to understand the class better in a slower manner rather than overload them with information at the very start.. Time gates also allow a sense of progression of your character rather than no progression at all.

Not everybody needs levels to teach them how to play. thats when skill come in. people learn differently and in different speeds.

holding everybody to the same method grind just to teach them something they may already know is not fun. hence why we have SPvP and WvW that already scale up players. But scaled up players in WvW dont have traits and gear to stand a chance.

Levels are tutorial argument been debunked for years. Even in this game, with the scaling like stated above.

Players should learn by playing. Not by being forced to level.

Originally MMOs didnt have levels. so whats your argument on that?

You didn’t argue against the 2nd point I made that is the primary reason it exists in RPGs. It gives a sense of progression. A large number of games as soon as people reach the highest lvl they want to progress in a manner. If people can not progress via lvl they want to progress via gear. People do not want a gear treadmill in this game so make a choice. A lvl grind or a gear grind? which would you choose just to give people the prospect of progression?

Ayrilana.1396:

Knighthonor.4061:

it may be done better than other games, but that still doesnt make it good to segregate the game world for players that arent max level.

its bad game design. no point in time sinks like this when there is no timely sub in this game.

Check out other RPG’s and such. They do the exact same thing. If you’re looking for dynamic leveling then the only game series I have seen been doing that is Elder Scrolls. Level barriers have existed in RPG’s for the longest time and are a core component.

They have progression, but not in the same way as character levels are used here to segregate the game.

Guhracie.3419:

Raine.1394:

Classical leveling is anachronistic and sets a bad precedent if you are going to try something modern like, oh, horizontal progression or something less tired than the classical gear grind. What you could have in its place is a tutorial that would prepare you gear, gameplay, and lore wise and then would launch you on to your adventures in the world of Tyria.

Again, the vertical grind of classical leveling sets an unnecessary and bad precedent in a game that is not about grinding. Prior to launch, at least, GW2 was not about grinding as Anet simply did not make grindy games.

Leveling cannot be old-fashioned while it is still the primary “fashion” around which games are designed. Further, GW2 was never promoted as a game that would not have leveling in it.

its not the primary “fashion” as you describe. its just conservative way developers been designing MMOs after Everquest 1.

Everquest next isnt even using levels. many other recent titles be moving away from the Everquest/WoW model.

Knighthonor.4061:

Ayrilana.1396:

Knighthonor.4061:

it may be done better than other games, but that still doesnt make it good to segregate the game world for players that arent max level.

its bad game design. no point in time sinks like this when there is no timely sub in this game.

Check out other RPG’s and such. They do the exact same thing. If you’re looking for dynamic leveling then the only game series I have seen been doing that is Elder Scrolls. Level barriers have existed in RPG’s for the longest time and are a core component.

They have progression, but not in the same way as character levels are used here to segregate the game.

Elder scrolls uses a lvl progression system. Unlike a character lvl progression it is a skill lvl progression with an overall lvl progression. Still an lvl progression system just more complex. It locks you from content still as you can not use the most powerful spells in the game at the start and nor can you kill certain enemies (elder dragons while at lvl1)

But you can’t sneeze without getting exp in this game. I wouldn’t call that grinding at all.

Suddenflame.2601:

Knighthonor.4061:

Suddenflame.2601:

Knighthonor.4061:

Galtrix.7369:

Knighthonor.4061:

Levels segregate the game world.

People cant enjoy the full of the game world without leveling first.

if players take their time, they miss out on all the cool things happening all over the place.

So no point not rushing to max level. but that leads to burnout since the skill/trait system doesnt reward well for leveling between 1-30, 30-40, 40-60, 60-80.

Would you like to eliminate levels altogether? Would you like there to be a server where you could instantly be level 80? Would you like to be temporarily leveled up when entering a higher level zone?

You didn’t provide a single solution. All you did was complain, and you didn’t suggest much of anything. Levels are a lot less stressful in this game than in others. This must be your first MMORPG. So go play WoW, Rift, Aion, or Runes of Magic and then try to compare the leveling process. I personally think Anet did a very good job on the level system, even though I hate not being able to one hit things.

I would like Traits to not be bound to level system. I want to have access to all traits at any level. and be able to go anywhere and do all the events that I discover.

That doesnt mean gear and better models cant still be tied to levels, but thats optional grind.

I want full access to all the gameplay. I dont care about gear grind, but some people do. so leave that for the level grind fans and gear grind fans to do their grind for.

But dont limit the gameplay behind level gates. I have 2 80s. rest of my alts are in their 30s because thats when they unlock their elites. I simply want the freedom to play and have fun. I am not the type of person that needs somebody else to guide and define what is fun to me. So level gates dont make the game more fun to me. just more grindy.

Level gates are in place to allow people to understand the class better in a slower manner rather than overload them with information at the very start.. Time gates also allow a sense of progression of your character rather than no progression at all.

Not everybody needs levels to teach them how to play. thats when skill come in. people learn differently and in different speeds.

holding everybody to the same method grind just to teach them something they may already know is not fun. hence why we have SPvP and WvW that already scale up players. But scaled up players in WvW dont have traits and gear to stand a chance.

Levels are tutorial argument been debunked for years. Even in this game, with the scaling like stated above.

Players should learn by playing. Not by being forced to level.

Originally MMOs didnt have levels. so whats your argument on that?

You didn’t argue against the 2nd point I made that is the primary reason it exists in RPGs. It gives a sense of progression. A large number of games as soon as people reach the highest lvl they want to progress in a manner. If people can not progress via lvl they want to progress via gear. People do not want a gear treadmill in this game so make a choice. A lvl grind or a gear grind? which would you choose just to give people the prospect of progression?

Progression isnt the synonym for Levels. Levels are a type of progression, just like gear grind is a type of progression.

Levels in their current method lock players gameplay. Gear grind does not, since anybody of the right level can still join in on an event and have fun, or join a dungeon and have fun.

But not all levels can do this. Some classes cant even play to their full gameplay options due to levels. I couldnt even get good group heals for my warrior until I turned level 60. thats 60 levels of playing a style that totally different from how I play at 60+. So had no effect on teaching me anything ,since I play totallu different than I did at low level.

like I said before. you can keep levels, and tie it into gear grind, for those who a fans of Level/Gear grind. but it would be totally optional like originally advertised. Optional Grind. Currently levels are not optional grind, since you cant fully play your class without them.

dont use levels to block off the game world, or traits and skills. Because since anybody can scale to max in WvW/SPvP, I dont see the point of needing traits world to be locked away behind levels as well.

Gabby.3205:

But you can’t sneeze without getting exp in this game. I wouldn’t call that grinding at all.

thats not important. its still a grind, because its something that prevents you from doing something. you can sneeze and gain exp for you, but that may not be fun to sneeze for hours on end just to unlock the fun elements of the game, which is exploration, and build making.

Suddenflame.2601:

Knighthonor.4061:

Ayrilana.1396:

Knighthonor.4061:

it may be done better than other games, but that still doesnt make it good to segregate the game world for players that arent max level.

its bad game design. no point in time sinks like this when there is no timely sub in this game.

Check out other RPG’s and such. They do the exact same thing. If you’re looking for dynamic leveling then the only game series I have seen been doing that is Elder Scrolls. Level barriers have existed in RPG’s for the longest time and are a core component.

They have progression, but not in the same way as character levels are used here to segregate the game.

Elder scrolls uses a lvl progression system. Unlike a character lvl progression it is a skill lvl progression with an overall lvl progression. Still an lvl progression system just more complex. It locks you from content still as you can not use the most powerful spells in the game at the start and nor can you kill certain enemies (elder dragons while at lvl1)

the game world scales. you may not be high level, but you can do all the content in some way. And since the game is sandbox in itself, people can choose how they play or what level they want to be.

Knighthonor.4061:

There is also reason that 2 faction games been common. Just because its common doesnt mean its whats best. Developers are conservative and like to reuse ideas of the past. thats why. it wasnt always common. like stated, most RPGs didnt have levels. going back as far as tabletop and into computer gaming. early RPGs didnt have levels. Levels became “the thing” after Everquest 1. That doesnt mean it has to be the set in stone way to make MMOs.

I didn’t say progression is, based on levels but you haven’t found a way to give people a sense of progression if you take levels of away. What would you put into place that would give people a sense of progression that is not a gear grind. What would you use to keep people playing? Cause content is not enough to keep people playing as Anet found out when people got to lvl80 and stopped playing. There was a ton of content but not progressive content so they stated that there was no end game. So how would you fix this in a game without level progression or gear progression?

Knighthonor.4061:

Gabby.3205:

But you can’t sneeze without getting exp in this game. I wouldn’t call that grinding at all.

thats not important. its still a grind, because its something that prevents you from doing something. you can sneeze and gain exp for you, but that may not be fun to sneeze for hours on end just to unlock the fun elements of the game, which is exploration, and build making.

Grinding is, by defintion, doing the same thing over and over. There are so many things you can do to level that it simply does not fit the definition of grinding. IF you want to grind, you can, but it is not necessary to grind to level.

Knighthonor.4061:

Suddenflame.2601:

Knighthonor.4061:

Ayrilana.1396:

Knighthonor.4061:

it may be done better than other games, but that still doesnt make it good to segregate the game world for players that arent max level.

its bad game design. no point in time sinks like this when there is no timely sub in this game.

Check out other RPG’s and such. They do the exact same thing. If you’re looking for dynamic leveling then the only game series I have seen been doing that is Elder Scrolls. Level barriers have existed in RPG’s for the longest time and are a core component.

They have progression, but not in the same way as character levels are used here to segregate the game.

Elder scrolls uses a lvl progression system. Unlike a character lvl progression it is a skill lvl progression with an overall lvl progression. Still an lvl progression system just more complex. It locks you from content still as you can not use the most powerful spells in the game at the start and nor can you kill certain enemies (elder dragons while at lvl1)

the game world scales. you may not be high level, but you can do all the content in some way. And since the game is sandbox in itself, people can choose how they play or what level they want to be.

The game scales but not all of it does (Found areas that don’t so enemies will one shot you no matter what unless you mod or cheat or get higher lvl) but also your trying to compare a moddable single player game with a unmodifiable (by players) MMORPG.

This type of system would not work for a MMORPG just due you can’t scale the world around hundreds of different level characters. You can only scale the players to the world level which Guild Wars 2 already does.

Knighthonor.4061:

Guhracie.3419:

Knighthonor.4061:

Guhracie.3419:

Knighthonor.4061:

it may be done better than other games, but that still doesnt make it good to segregate the game world for players that arent max level.

its bad game design. no point in time sinks like this when there is no timely sub in this game.

Leveling is a core mechanic of the RPG system. I don’t understand your issue with the concept. Are you familiar with RPGs?

ETA: I’m also in agreement with Galtrix, above. What is your proposed solution?

I hate when people say this. when RPGs didnt even have levels at first. Tabletops—>MUDs—->First MMORPGs

again levels wasnt always part of RPGs. so thats not something that can define something that wasnt always part of them.

But there’s a reason it’s by far the more common mechanism, and there’s certainly a reason why it’s utilized almost exclusively in the genre we are speaking about, which is MMORPGs.

There is also reason that 2 faction games been common. Just because its common doesnt mean its whats best. Developers are conservative and like to reuse ideas of the past. thats why. it wasnt always common. like stated, most RPGs didnt have levels. going back as far as tabletop and into computer gaming. early RPGs didnt have levels. Levels became “the thing” after Everquest 1. That doesnt mean it has to be the set in stone way to make MMOs.

Yeah, no. Levels existed long before computer gaming. I will give you that not all RPGs have always had levels, but to say that “most” didn’t is a flat-out lie.

Suddenflame.2601:

I didn’t say progression is, based on levels but you haven’t found a way to give people a sense of progression if you take levels of away. What would you put into place that would give people a sense of progression that is not a gear grind. What would you use to keep people playing? Cause content is not enough to keep people playing as Anet found out when people got to lvl80 and stopped playing. There was a ton of content but not progressive content so they stated that there was no end game. So how would you fix this in a game without level progression or gear progression?

I told you already. Gear can still be tied to a level system.

unlock this model and gear stats at level x,y,z.

But dont lock Traits/Skills to level requirements and dont lock zones to levels.

So players can play and go wherever they want and create their own story and progression. They can play any event. The levels would be the reward for the fun, instead of how it currently is, which is fun is the reward for leveling through the gated content.

still has its progression. But not forced on people like it is now. its Optional grind, and comes with the fun of playing the way you enjoy.

some people enjoy defend events. well they can do that all day long and explore to find new defense events.

Some people like escort events, they can do that all day and find new events of that kind.

some people like champ zergs,

some people like hearts,

some people like jump puzzles,

etc.

they can play the way they enjoy, and still get their levels, but they wont be locked away from the stuff they enjoy simply because they dont fit a level requirment. can you imagine how this game would have been if they also locked SPvP and WvW like this around levels?

>Wanting everything at level 1

That’s a whole new level of Entitlement that I’ve never seen until now. It’s like buying the game, and wanting to beat Zhaitan 5 minutes later.

Guhracie.3419:

Knighthonor.4061:

Guhracie.3419:

Knighthonor.4061:

Guhracie.3419:

Knighthonor.4061:

it may be done better than other games, but that still doesnt make it good to segregate the game world for players that arent max level.

its bad game design. no point in time sinks like this when there is no timely sub in this game.

Leveling is a core mechanic of the RPG system. I don’t understand your issue with the concept. Are you familiar with RPGs?

ETA: I’m also in agreement with Galtrix, above. What is your proposed solution?

I hate when people say this. when RPGs didnt even have levels at first. Tabletops—>MUDs—->First MMORPGs

again levels wasnt always part of RPGs. so thats not something that can define something that wasnt always part of them.

But there’s a reason it’s by far the more common mechanism, and there’s certainly a reason why it’s utilized almost exclusively in the genre we are speaking about, which is MMORPGs.

There is also reason that 2 faction games been common. Just because its common doesnt mean its whats best. Developers are conservative and like to reuse ideas of the past. thats why. it wasnt always common. like stated, most RPGs didnt have levels. going back as far as tabletop and into computer gaming. early RPGs didnt have levels. Levels became “the thing” after Everquest 1. That doesnt mean it has to be the set in stone way to make MMOs.

Yeah, no. Levels existed long before computer gaming. I will give you that not all RPGs have always had levels, but to say that “most” didn’t is a flat-out lie.

And to state most did, is also an equal lie. So where does it stand?

I say make Levels optional, and you have the best of both worlds.

People can play the way they enjoy, and people that like to level/gear grind can simply do that instead.

Knighthonor.4061:

Guhracie.3419:

Knighthonor.4061:

Guhracie.3419:

Knighthonor.4061:

Guhracie.3419:

Knighthonor.4061:

it may be done better than other games, but that still doesnt make it good to segregate the game world for players that arent max level.

its bad game design. no point in time sinks like this when there is no timely sub in this game.

Leveling is a core mechanic of the RPG system. I don’t understand your issue with the concept. Are you familiar with RPGs?

ETA: I’m also in agreement with Galtrix, above. What is your proposed solution?

I hate when people say this. when RPGs didnt even have levels at first. Tabletops—>MUDs—->First MMORPGs

again levels wasnt always part of RPGs. so thats not something that can define something that wasnt always part of them.

But there’s a reason it’s by far the more common mechanism, and there’s certainly a reason why it’s utilized almost exclusively in the genre we are speaking about, which is MMORPGs.

There is also reason that 2 faction games been common. Just because its common doesnt mean its whats best. Developers are conservative and like to reuse ideas of the past. thats why. it wasnt always common. like stated, most RPGs didnt have levels. going back as far as tabletop and into computer gaming. early RPGs didnt have levels. Levels became “the thing” after Everquest 1. That doesnt mean it has to be the set in stone way to make MMOs.

Yeah, no. Levels existed long before computer gaming. I will give you that not all RPGs have always had levels, but to say that “most” didn’t is a flat-out lie.

And to state most did, is also an equal lie. So where does it stand?

I say make Levels optional, and you have the best of both worlds.

People can play the way they enjoy, and people that like to level/gear grind can simply do that instead.

Most rpgs do have a leveling system, though. That’s not a lie, no matter how much you want it to be.

It’s also a bit belated to be asking Anet to rework their entire progression system a year after launch.

Knighthonor.4061:

Suddenflame.2601:

I didn’t say progression is, based on levels but you haven’t found a way to give people a sense of progression if you take levels of away. What would you put into place that would give people a sense of progression that is not a gear grind. What would you use to keep people playing? Cause content is not enough to keep people playing as Anet found out when people got to lvl80 and stopped playing. There was a ton of content but not progressive content so they stated that there was no end game. So how would you fix this in a game without level progression or gear progression?

I told you already. Gear can still be tied to a level system.

unlock this model and gear stats at level x,y,z.

But dont lock Traits/Skills to level requirements and dont lock zones to levels.

So players can play and go wherever they want and create their own story and progression. They can play any event. The levels would be the reward for the fun, instead of how it currently is, which is fun is the reward for leveling through the gated content.

still has its progression. But not forced on people like it is now. its Optional grind, and comes with the fun of playing the way you enjoy.

some people enjoy defend events. well they can do that all day long and explore to find new defense events.

Some people like escort events, they can do that all day and find new events of that kind.

some people like champ zergs,

some people like hearts,

some people like jump puzzles,

etc.

they can play the way they enjoy, and still get their levels, but they wont be locked away from the stuff they enjoy simply because they dont fit a level requirment. can you imagine how this game would have been if they also locked SPvP and WvW like this around levels?

Based on this logic why would you lock gear and not skill traits and skills? Since gear is what mostly allows you in this game to do things and not your level then it is gear that is locking you from progressing and not the traits. If my lvl1 warrior could have a lvl80 GS and lvl80 exotics he wouldn’t be prevented from doing things.

Also based on you want you failed to meet the 2nd condition. 0 gear grind. You created a gear grind by removing lvl grind. To get better gear I must lvl just so i can wear better gear. The solo purpose of lvling is for gear which is a gear grind. The way Anet has it the importance of lvling is not for gear but for skills (till lvl30) then traits (lvl80) then gear. Gear being last and optional. Yours would remove part 1 and part 2 and make it soloely based on gear which creates a gear grind.

Try again this time make a progression system that has 0 level progression and 0 gear grind.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

>Wanting everything at level 1

That’s a whole new level of Entitlement that I’ve never seen until now. It’s like buying the game, and wanting to beat Zhaitan 5 minutes later.

GW2 was marketed as Endgame starts at level 1 after all.

That appeals to a lot of people, because after years of playing in WoW,EQ,RIft, etc, many people realize that they dont need levels since its only a short part of the game.

Even the game of this same IP that existed before GW2, aka Guild Wars 1, was built on this concept, by having only 20 level, and the rest of the game is endgame, since the levels without the illusions of grind, is really only a small part of long term gameplay.

Endgame is the long term part of a MMO.

Suddenflame.2601:

Knighthonor.4061:

Suddenflame.2601:

I didn’t say progression is, based on levels but you haven’t found a way to give people a sense of progression if you take levels of away. What would you put into place that would give people a sense of progression that is not a gear grind. What would you use to keep people playing? Cause content is not enough to keep people playing as Anet found out when people got to lvl80 and stopped playing. There was a ton of content but not progressive content so they stated that there was no end game. So how would you fix this in a game without level progression or gear progression?

I told you already. Gear can still be tied to a level system.

unlock this model and gear stats at level x,y,z.

But dont lock Traits/Skills to level requirements and dont lock zones to levels.

So players can play and go wherever they want and create their own story and progression. They can play any event. The levels would be the reward for the fun, instead of how it currently is, which is fun is the reward for leveling through the gated content.

still has its progression. But not forced on people like it is now. its Optional grind, and comes with the fun of playing the way you enjoy.

some people enjoy defend events. well they can do that all day long and explore to find new defense events.

Some people like escort events, they can do that all day and find new events of that kind.

some people like champ zergs,

some people like hearts,

some people like jump puzzles,

etc.

they can play the way they enjoy, and still get their levels, but they wont be locked away from the stuff they enjoy simply because they dont fit a level requirment. can you imagine how this game would have been if they also locked SPvP and WvW like this around levels?

Based on this logic why would you lock gear and not skill traits and skills? Since gear is what mostly allows you in this game to do things and not your level then it is gear that is locking you from progressing and not the traits. If my lvl1 warrior could have a lvl80 GS and lvl80 exotics he wouldn’t be prevented from doing things.

Also based on you want you failed to meet the 2nd condition. 0 gear grind. You created a gear grind by removing lvl grind. To get better gear I must lvl just so i can wear better gear. The solo purpose of lvling is for gear which is a gear grind. The way Anet has it the importance of lvling is not for gear but for skills (till lvl30) then traits (lvl80) then gear. Gear being last and optional. Yours would remove part 1 and part 2 and make it soloely based on gear which creates a gear grind.

Try again this time make a progression system that has 0 level progression and 0 gear grind.

Because Gear is just for looks and stats. Traits define how you play. Skills are tied to Traits and build. The way you look and the stats you wear arent as important as the build you go into battle with.

A player going into the world, fully scaled in level, and with full traits, and make builds for different fights. Gear is a totally different ball game of grinding.

at max level, players dont need the best gear to be effective. They can still contribute in all events and content.

Traits on the other hand effect how you fight in battle.

My warrior didnt have strong AoE heals, when he was low level, but I can toss a few burst heals as a max level. thats a totally different change in gameplay because of my levels gated me from playing the way I wanted.

Knighthonor.4061:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

>Wanting everything at level 1

That’s a whole new level of Entitlement that I’ve never seen until now. It’s like buying the game, and wanting to beat Zhaitan 5 minutes later.

GW2 was marketed as Endgame starts at level 1 after all.

That appeals to a lot of people, because after years of playing in WoW,EQ,RIft, etc, many people realize that they dont need levels since its only a short part of the game.

Even the game of this same IP that existed before GW2, aka Guild Wars 1, was built on this concept, by having only 20 level, and the rest of the game is endgame, since the levels without the illusions of grind, is really only a small part of long term gameplay.

Endgame is the long term part of a MMO.

GW2 was not marketed as such. They never stated it anywhere that you would be able to do everything at lvl1, or that endgame was at lvl1. Guild Wars 1 is a different game with a different concept behind it. Guild Wars 2 has more levels with a possibility of higher lvls in the future (not taken off the table).

I’m afraid Knighthonor you making a lot of unsupported statements to contradict people without offering any evidence to support your own statements. I can remember the old text based multi user dungeons that predated Everquest I and Ultima Online and the majority of them also had levels. Name the MMOs without levels that you particularly enjoyed. They were probably free form or had some alternative character develop that equated to levels, even though there were not called levels.

New players in GW2 can compete in end game WvW immediately.
New players can compete in end game SPvP immediately.
New players have end game content such as world events in low level zones.
Experienced players mix with new players for end game content in low level zones.
New players usually have access to living story content and holiday features.

This is the evidence that supports the case that GW2 does give new players the opportunity to play with experienced players. If you want the end game content with full character capability and full itemization I suggest you go directly into SPvP right now.

Knighthonor.4061:

Suddenflame.2601:

Knighthonor.4061:

Suddenflame.2601:

I didn’t say progression is, based on levels but you haven’t found a way to give people a sense of progression if you take levels of away. What would you put into place that would give people a sense of progression that is not a gear grind. What would you use to keep people playing? Cause content is not enough to keep people playing as Anet found out when people got to lvl80 and stopped playing. There was a ton of content but not progressive content so they stated that there was no end game. So how would you fix this in a game without level progression or gear progression?

I told you already. Gear can still be tied to a level system.

unlock this model and gear stats at level x,y,z.

But dont lock Traits/Skills to level requirements and dont lock zones to levels.

So players can play and go wherever they want and create their own story and progression. They can play any event. The levels would be the reward for the fun, instead of how it currently is, which is fun is the reward for leveling through the gated content.

still has its progression. But not forced on people like it is now. its Optional grind, and comes with the fun of playing the way you enjoy.

some people enjoy defend events. well they can do that all day long and explore to find new defense events.

Some people like escort events, they can do that all day and find new events of that kind.

some people like champ zergs,

some people like hearts,

some people like jump puzzles,

etc.

they can play the way they enjoy, and still get their levels, but they wont be locked away from the stuff they enjoy simply because they dont fit a level requirment. can you imagine how this game would have been if they also locked SPvP and WvW like this around levels?

Based on this logic why would you lock gear and not skill traits and skills? Since gear is what mostly allows you in this game to do things and not your level then it is gear that is locking you from progressing and not the traits. If my lvl1 warrior could have a lvl80 GS and lvl80 exotics he wouldn’t be prevented from doing things.

Also based on you want you failed to meet the 2nd condition. 0 gear grind. You created a gear grind by removing lvl grind. To get better gear I must lvl just so i can wear better gear. The solo purpose of lvling is for gear which is a gear grind. The way Anet has it the importance of lvling is not for gear but for skills (till lvl30) then traits (lvl80) then gear. Gear being last and optional. Yours would remove part 1 and part 2 and make it soloely based on gear which creates a gear grind.

Try again this time make a progression system that has 0 level progression and 0 gear grind.

Because Gear is just for looks and stats. Traits define how you play. Skills are tied to Traits and build. The way you look and the stats you wear arent as important as the build you go into battle with.

A player going into the world, fully scaled in level, and with full traits, and make builds for different fights. Gear is a totally different ball game of grinding.

You still haven’t removed the grind you created thou. You created a gear grind based on your thought as most people always want a sense of progression. Since you moved GW2 progression system and replacing it with this one you are making a gear grind.

Remove the gear grind or else you will have anger on the forums like Anet did with Ascended gear being introduced.

Edit: As well it is going against the core design of the game which is no gear grind only for cosmetics.

I’m still gobsmacked that you could even suggest that character levels are an invention that began with Everquest.

Levels in GW2 mainly split up content based on difficulty. It’s not always perfect, but for example Queensdale has easier content than Snowden Drifts, Blazeridge Steps has easier content than Mount Maelstrom, etc etc.

The idea is that levelling your character allows you access to content which is harder gameplay-wise, preventing you from jumping straight into hard content before you get used to playing your character.

There are issues, of course. You can easily get used to a character without levelling at all in PvP, and the difficulty variance in dungeons weirdly trends towards some of the lower level dungeons being amongst the hardest. AC, TA and CM all feel harder to me than HotW, CoE and CoF. The new Kessex Hills may be somewhat harder than some mid-game zones.

But the main idea is that levels are supposed to separate content based on difficulty. Whether the process of raising your level is too long or not is something else, but levels themselves have a purpose.

Respectfully, Knighthonor, you’re playing the wrong game. In fact, you’re playing the wrong genre. You should go find some nice action adventure games to play.

Knighthonor.4061:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

>Wanting everything at level 1

That’s a whole new level of Entitlement that I’ve never seen until now. It’s like buying the game, and wanting to beat Zhaitan 5 minutes later.

GW2 was marketed as Endgame starts at level 1 after all.

That appeals to a lot of people, because after years of playing in WoW,EQ,RIft, etc, many people realize that they dont need levels since its only a short part of the game.

Even the game of this same IP that existed before GW2, aka Guild Wars 1, was built on this concept, by having only 20 level, and the rest of the game is endgame, since the levels without the illusions of grind, is really only a small part of long term gameplay.

Endgame is the long term part of a MMO.

You do realize that not all content allows your lv 1 character to be upleveled, right? Take your new lv 1 south of LA, and even the ambient creatures could 1-shot you.

I don’t actually disagree with the OP, but for all that I don’t disagree, there are problems with doing away with the whole leveling architecture.

Anet has made a number of changes to the “standard” MMO with this game, no raids and no trinity being the biggest, but by no means the only changes. They had discussed not having levels at all early on in development, but decided it was “too far to go” for the normal MMO player. In other words, you can’t change the entire genre and then expect the game to sell to fans.

Already they’ve lost the battle to have a game that revolved around only cosmetic advancement, and people posting about bringing the trinity into the game is something that happens quite frequently.

Too many changes would have doomed the game from the start. In fact, in the early days of development you could be up-leveled as well as down-leveled and that led to problems…so they did try it.

There’s still content that does uplevel you. When the living story was in South Sun, you were leveled to 80. When you’re in the halloween maze, you’re leveled to 80.

So you’re not missing out on anything that you can’t really do, unless you just started the game very recently.

In fact, I do quite a bit of content (the queen’s pavillion, the halloween maze) just to help level some lower level alts.

I see it this way: human beings are inherently drawn towards change through time. This is how we see the world. From this point of view, a story or a sense of progression is basically the same. To put it simply, we either want a strong story or well-defined progression. In an MMO, the game is way too broad in scope to deliver a linear, engaging story, we have other games for that. The story in this case is replaced by progression. I, for one, love levelling, because it is the mechanism behind my personal progression through the game, which helps me to measure my progression and identify my goals. I love the journey, and I like my signposts as well.

Compare an MMO to a sandbox game, say, GTA, or Red Dead Redemption. My personal problem with these games that the only thing captivates me is the story. As soon as I finish the story, there’s little to keep me there just to linger around. I can finish my personal challenges, complete achievements indeed, but that’s the same in every game. That’s why other sandbox games with levelling (skill trees, unlocks, etc.) are far more exciting in my eyes. But this is my personal preference of course.

On the other hand levelling can be seen as a segregating mechanism in the light of the Living Story updates. That is conflicting, sure. I recently decided to opt out from doing the LS, because I can’t concentrate on my alts’ progression, exploration. For me, the LS can be immersion breaking, but I reckon its true purpose is to provide a kind of an exciting endgame for 80’s.

Leveling is the best part of the game. I always found myself wishing it took longer. Of course, the lack of new zones, professions, etc. results, eventually, in getting burned out on the same leveling content. I guess it’s easier to provide new stuff for achievement hounds and stat pursuers than it is adventurers and explorers.

You know that ArenaNet toyed with the idea of getting rid of levels completely during the development of GW2, right?
They just weren’t brave enough to follow through.
So now Everquest Next is going to steal that ball and run with it.

Mungrul.9358:

You know that ArenaNet toyed with the idea of getting rid of levels completely during the development of GW2, right?
They just weren’t brave enough to follow through.
So now Everquest 2 is going to steal that ball and run with it.

Ah, but will they do a better job of it than TSW?