Guild Wars 2

For some players might be LS reason to quit but for different reasons then missing certain parts of it. They fear that LS updates are only content which GW2 ever gets so they just said to themselves “WvW is zerg vs zerg i dont enjoy it that much, future of PvE content is LS, i dont like it that much either so what do i do for fun in this game?” ……farewell GW2….

Kaiyanwan.8521:

ANet is running a fair risk with the LS, they wouldn’t adapt it if it wasn’t directly related to lower sales.

I pains me to say this, but I hope it blows up in their face. If the quality of content we’re getting in the Living Story is the future of this game, I’d rather fail spectacularly. I’m hoping the players will send ArenaNet the clear message that quality, not quantity, is what matters when it comes to content. But as of now I don’t think enough players share my opinion on the Living Story. So I have to bide my time and hope that enough players jump ship to the AAA MMOs on the docket for next year so that change can be effected.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

If you don’t see the difference between quality-of-life changes and a grand strategy for a game that struggels to seperate itself from all others, you are delusional.

ANet is running a fair risk with the LS, they wouldn’t adapt it if it wasn’t directly related to lower sales.

Actually this isn’t true.

It’s not lower sales that Anet is adapting to, but concurrency numbers. Most games will sell most copies in the first 90 days of their life. After that, it’s a trickle that comes in. Anet is supporting itself on the cash shop and for that it needs players. It’s not going to get a million new players until it launches in China. Most people interested would have bought the game a year ago. A year later, the interested people have already purchased it. Why would sales figure into it at all?

But concurrency numbers seem to be the only way to judge how the game is doing. How many people are logging in and for how long. And of course how many people are spending money in the shop.

When Anet sees a drop off, they make changes. When they see an increase, they adjust the game in the direction that sees the most profit for them. It’s a sound business strategy.

So if the Living Story creates concurrency on update days and keeps up for several days after, and during those days they make gem store sales (which you can tell is happening from the higher gold to gem prices at those times), then Anet will keep doing what they’re doing.

Because as a business, it makes sense to do that.

And because people are logging in and playing, they’re giving feedback just by doing that.

The small percentage of people on the forums complaining is just that….a small percentage.

How do I know? Because if Anet was actually losing concurrency they would change the plan, instead of increasing it. That’s just simple logic.

darkace.8925:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

ANet is running a fair risk with the LS, they wouldn’t adapt it if it wasn’t directly related to lower sales.

I pains me to say this, but I hope it blows up in their face. If the quality of content we’re getting in the Living Story is the future of this game, I’d rather fail spectacularly. I’m hoping the players will send ArenaNet the clear message that quality, not quantity, is what matters when it comes to content. But as of now I don’t think enough players share my opinion on the Living Story. So I have to bide my time and hope that enough players jump ship to the AAA MMOs on the docket for next year so that change can be effected.

Wow, I used to like you.

So you’re saying you hope those happy with the game get screwed, because you don’t like it. That’s rough.

The programmers should be unemployeed and have to find new jobs, because you don’t like it.

That’s just wrong on so many levels.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

If you don’t see the difference between quality-of-life changes and a grand strategy for a game that struggels to seperate itself from all others, you are delusional.

ANet is running a fair risk with the LS, they wouldn’t adapt it if it wasn’t directly related to lower sales.

can you stop calling people delusional just cause they have a different point of view?

now, they’re running with LS and keeping to the LS simply because it works. They already stated multiple times since starting LS players are on the rise, both in terms of hours played and turns of unique players playing per week.

Its not even about sales. its now been a year, sales arent the primary revenue driver, most people who had to buy it bought it, LS has been going for 10 months those who were enticed by it have been enticed by it new sales based on it are probably negligable at this point. Free Trials are way more effective I am sure.

That being said Arenanet are not on a crusade to annoy their own players. The LS as a strategy worked, play counts confirm that but though it worked its undeniable that it didnt resonate well with some of the players and that in turn doesnt mean that if by tweaking it a little bit they can make those players happier they shouldnt do it just because they’re not loosing players at the time. Thats why there is no reason for them to be forced into making a change. its in every ones best interest that as many players as possible enjoy the game.

It is all about sales. Less people interested in the LS? Less people buying LS fluff off the store. Sales include the ingame store.
Less people logging in, less potential buyers for fluff in general.

Hey and if you believe everything people say, we would have gotten an update worth an expansion earlier this year…

Kaiyanwan.8521:

It is all about sales. Less people interested in the LS? Less people buying LS fluff off the store. Sales include the ingame store.
Less people logging in, less potential buyers for fluff in general.

Hey and if you believe everything people say, we would have gotten an update worth an expansion earlier this year…

Because every MMO makes an expansion during their first year.

Vayne.8563:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

It is all about sales. Less people interested in the LS? Less people buying LS fluff off the store. Sales include the ingame store.
Less people logging in, less potential buyers for fluff in general.

Hey and if you believe everything people say, we would have gotten an update worth an expansion earlier this year…

Because every MMO makes an expansion during their first year.

Because ANet said so and didn’t?

Vayne.8563:

darkace.8925:

I pains me to say this, but I hope it blows up in their face. If the quality of content we’re getting in the Living Story is the future of this game, I’d rather fail spectacularly. I’m hoping the players will send ArenaNet the clear message that quality, not quantity, is what matters when it comes to content. But as of now I don’t think enough players share my opinion on the Living Story. So I have to bide my time and hope that enough players jump ship to the AAA MMOs on the docket for next year so that change can be effected.

Wow, I used to like you.

So you’re saying you hope those happy with the game get screwed, because you don’t like it. That’s rough.

The programmers should be unemployeed and have to find new jobs, because you don’t like it.

That’s just wrong on so many levels.

You might want to re-read my post AFTER you’ve had your morning coffee. I in no way said I wanted the game to fail or anyone to be out of work. I said I wanted to Living Story to fail and the direction of the game to change. It stands to reason those changes can’t happen if the game is shut down or the developers are laid off.

I’m not sure where your indignation is stemming from. You yourself rightly said, “And because people are logging in and playing, they’re giving feedback just by doing that.” So if I’m unhappy with the Living Story, then obviously I have a rooting interest that people stop logging in and playing it in sufficient numbers that ArenaNet reconsiders the way they’re adding content to the game. That’s a far cry from wishing the game would tank or anyone get laid off, wouldn’t you agree?

Kaiyanwan.8521:

It is all about sales. Less people interested in the LS? Less people buying LS fluff off the store. Sales include the ingame store.
Less people logging in, less potential buyers for fluff in general.

Hey and if you believe everything people say, we would have gotten an update worth an expansion earlier this year…

having people logged in is not enough though. If I hate the direction the game is going and am angry at arenanet there is nearly no chance I am going to buy stuff from the cash shop especially when none of it is needed.

They have to make me happy as well. If I am enjoying the game and love the effort they’re making every 2 weeks so I have new stuff to play then I may buy stuff even stuff I dont need just so I can show my support and help the game sustain itself.

its not just about getting people to logging but also to enjoy themselves.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

If you don’t see the difference between quality-of-life changes and a grand strategy for a game that struggels to seperate itself from all others, you are delusional.

ANet is running a fair risk with the LS, they wouldn’t adapt it if it wasn’t directly related to lower sales.

You finally relized its pointless to discuss when someone cant discern even simplest of concept and ideas.

Vayne.8563:

darkace.8925:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

ANet is running a fair risk with the LS, they wouldn’t adapt it if it wasn’t directly related to lower sales.

I pains me to say this, but I hope it blows up in their face. If the quality of content we’re getting in the Living Story is the future of this game, I’d rather fail spectacularly. I’m hoping the players will send ArenaNet the clear message that quality, not quantity, is what matters when it comes to content. But as of now I don’t think enough players share my opinion on the Living Story. So I have to bide my time and hope that enough players jump ship to the AAA MMOs on the docket for next year so that change can be effected.

Wow, I used to like you.

So you’re saying you hope those happy with the game get screwed, because you don’t like it. That’s rough.

The programmers should be unemployeed and have to find new jobs, because you don’t like it.

That’s just wrong on so many levels.

Blizzard
Turbine
Mythic
Bioware
Trion
Funcom

ALL had big layoffs, and guess what….they all “knew” what they were doing and were acting same way as ANet

And yes, lot of unemployed people because “I/we” didnt like the game.

But in a way its hilarious to watch speed at which developers learn. Its kinda watching paint dry, and you throw a look every few years and see its not even close to dry yet rofl

I still remember James Ohlen presenting “MMO gaming theories” on which SWTOR was based (and all failed MMOs). Yup. I can only say “are they THAT dumb?”. And guess what: SWTOR had quite a few “veteran MMO developers” working on SWTOR.

darkace.8925:

You might want to re-read my post AFTER you’ve had your morning coffee. I in no way said I wanted the game to fail or anyone to be out of work. I said I wanted to Living Story to fail and the direction of the game to change. It stands to reason those changes can’t happen if the game is shut down or the developers are laid off.

I’m not sure where your indignation is stemming from. You yourself rightly said, “And because people are logging in and playing, they’re giving feedback just by doing that.” So if I’m unhappy with the Living Story, then obviously I have a rooting interest that people stop logging in and playing it in sufficient numbers that ArenaNet reconsiders the way they’re adding content to the game. That’s a far cry from wishing the game would tank or anyone get laid off, wouldn’t you agree?

There is a way and then there is a way to get a game to change direction. What you’re suggesting would be too destructive. If LS blows up in their faces like you suggest it would mean a lot of people stopped playing and that will likely lead to layoffs if the income generated would not sustain a 300 person + workforce. layoffs are bad not just for the people involved who loose their job but also for the game in general, less people working on it = less updates, less variety. Even if a change of direction would help out to re-acquire lost player base the game never get to the former glory, new hires will happen reluctantly because of fear that it might happen again and those new hires will take a lot of time to reach the productively of the old team who knew, the game, code, art style and lore pretty well.

This type of change will help no one.
On the other hand there is nothing wrong by stating your desired changed, there is plenty of examples how arenanet changed course based on that. It might not happen in this instance or they might to compromise but at least this way no one really looses out.

MikaHR.1978:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

If you don’t see the difference between quality-of-life changes and a grand strategy for a game that struggels to seperate itself from all others, you are delusional.

ANet is running a fair risk with the LS, they wouldn’t adapt it if it wasn’t directly related to lower sales.

You finally relized its pointless to discuss when someone cant discern even simplest of concept and ideas.

I have to admit it is hard.

Look, people like me just don’t buy stuff anymore. We are above that “get it now or it will be gone” attitude.
I am not alone, at least that’s my impression. The game is financed mostly by the in-game store at this time. Actually, I am hurting ANet by playing their game without buying stuff (they have to pay their bills anyway).

Whatever, with the LS going on like this, I will not buy anything in the near future. I have more fluff than my bank can hold anyway. What is the point of spending money?

darkace.8925:

Vayne.8563:

darkace.8925:

I pains me to say this, but I hope it blows up in their face. If the quality of content we’re getting in the Living Story is the future of this game, I’d rather fail spectacularly. I’m hoping the players will send ArenaNet the clear message that quality, not quantity, is what matters when it comes to content. But as of now I don’t think enough players share my opinion on the Living Story. So I have to bide my time and hope that enough players jump ship to the AAA MMOs on the docket for next year so that change can be effected.

Wow, I used to like you.

So you’re saying you hope those happy with the game get screwed, because you don’t like it. That’s rough.

The programmers should be unemployeed and have to find new jobs, because you don’t like it.

That’s just wrong on so many levels.

You might want to re-read my post AFTER you’ve had your morning coffee. I in no way said I wanted the game to fail or anyone to be out of work. I said I wanted to Living Story to fail and the direction of the game to change. It stands to reason those changes can’t happen if the game is shut down or the developers are laid off.

I’m not sure where your indignation is stemming from. You yourself rightly said, “And because people are logging in and playing, they’re giving feedback just by doing that.” So if I’m unhappy with the Living Story, then obviously I have a rooting interest that people stop logging in and playing it in sufficient numbers that ArenaNet reconsiders the way they’re adding content to the game. That’s a far cry from wishing the game would tank or anyone get laid off, wouldn’t you agree?

Ah my bad. I apologize.

Mind you, I really like the living story, you’re still hoping something I really like to fail…but at least no one will be out of a job over it. lol

Kaiyanwan.8521:

MikaHR.1978:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

If you don’t see the difference between quality-of-life changes and a grand strategy for a game that struggels to seperate itself from all others, you are delusional.

ANet is running a fair risk with the LS, they wouldn’t adapt it if it wasn’t directly related to lower sales.

You finally relized its pointless to discuss when someone cant discern even simplest of concept and ideas.

I have to admit it is hard.

Look, people like me just don’t buy stuff anymore. We are above that “get it now or it will be gone” attitude.
I am not alone, at least that’s my impression. The game is financed mostly by the in-game store at this time. Actually, I am hurting ANet by playing their game without buying stuff (they have to pay their bills anyway).

Whatever, with the LS going on like this, I will not buy anything in the near future. I have more fluff than my bank can hold anyway. What is the point of spending money?

I am sure they’re not expecting everyone to pay all the time. I actually agree with you, if you’re not enjoying the game you shouldnt pay. F2P (b2p is a subset of that) works because different players provide different value. Paying players provide monatory value which is of course extremely important but players who desire to pay for free are value as well, they provide player count which is also essential to an MMO.

as for the pointless to discuss because we “cant discern even simplest of concept and ideas.” I hope you two are honest enough with yourselves to realize that can be a two way street. Just like you may feel its hard to understand that us who like the LS for the stated reasons can not see and agree to the bad you yourselves see, we too find the opposite equally perplexing. We understand that diversity of opinion doesnt mean the other party fails to grasp even the simplest of concept and ideas but rather know/hope they simply they have other priorities and/or like different things. Thats why at least myself but as far as I can tell all others who defend the LS would never try to belittle any of your opinions with statements like these. It is a bit sad when in an arguement one party stops focusing on the argument at hand but instead try to belittle the other party. So far it was good discussing with you Kaiyanwan, dont let disrespectful people influence you negatively. People discussing the topic genuinely arnet likely to take you more seriously if you do.

Galen Grey.4709:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

MikaHR.1978:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

If you don’t see the difference between quality-of-life changes and a grand strategy for a game that struggels to seperate itself from all others, you are delusional.

ANet is running a fair risk with the LS, they wouldn’t adapt it if it wasn’t directly related to lower sales.

You finally relized its pointless to discuss when someone cant discern even simplest of concept and ideas.

I have to admit it is hard.

Look, people like me just don’t buy stuff anymore. We are above that “get it now or it will be gone” attitude.
I am not alone, at least that’s my impression. The game is financed mostly by the in-game store at this time. Actually, I am hurting ANet by playing their game without buying stuff (they have to pay their bills anyway).

Whatever, with the LS going on like this, I will not buy anything in the near future. I have more fluff than my bank can hold anyway. What is the point of spending money?

I am sure they’re not expecting everyone to pay all the time. I actually agree with you, if you’re not enjoying the game you shouldnt pay. F2P (b2p is a subset of that) works because different players provide different value. Paying players provide monatory value which is of course extremely important but players who desire to pay for free are value as well, they provide player count which is also essential to an MMO.

as for the pointless to discuss because we “cant discern even simplest of concept and ideas.” I hope you two are honest enough with yourselves to realize that can be a two way street. Just like you may feel its hard to understand that us who like the LS for the stated reasons can not see and agree to the bad you yourselves see, we too find the opposite equally perplexing. We understand that diversity of opinion doesnt mean the other party fails to grasp even the simplest of concept and ideas but rather know/hope they simply they have other priorities and/or like different things. Thats why at least myself but as far as I can tell all others who defend the LS would never try to belittle any of your opinions with statements like these. It is a bit sad when in an arguement one party stops focusing on the argument at hand but instead try to belittle the other party. So far it was good discussing with you Kaiyanwan, dont let disrespectful people influence you negatively. People discussing the topic genuinely arnet likely to take you more seriously if you do.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to attack you personally. At this point I have made my point anyway.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

MikaHR.1978:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

If you don’t see the difference between quality-of-life changes and a grand strategy for a game that struggels to seperate itself from all others, you are delusional.

ANet is running a fair risk with the LS, they wouldn’t adapt it if it wasn’t directly related to lower sales.

You finally relized its pointless to discuss when someone cant discern even simplest of concept and ideas.

I have to admit it is hard.

Look, people like me just don’t buy stuff anymore. We are above that “get it now or it will be gone” attitude.
I am not alone, at least that’s my impression. The game is financed mostly by the in-game store at this time. Actually, I am hurting ANet by playing their game without buying stuff (they have to pay their bills anyway).

Whatever, with the LS going on like this, I will not buy anything in the near future. I have more fluff than my bank can hold anyway. What is the point of spending money?

By playing and not paying you actually send completely different message – you like the game but dont find interest n cash shop, not really resulting in desired effect.

The ONLY way to get your message across is to stop logging in, otherwise only thing you will get is more intrusive cash shop.

Vayne.8563:

Ah my bad. I apologize.

No sweat; misunderstandings happen from time to time.

Vayne.8563:

Mind you, I really like the living story, you’re still hoping something I really like to fail…

Unfortunately that’s the nature of the beast. If you like A and I like B and we can’t have both, then I’m hoping I get what I want even if it means you don’t. It’s nothing personal, of course…just human nature.

That said, I’m not against the idea of the Living Story, I just loathe how it’s being utilized. If it were being used to deliver more of the things I originally loved about the game (things like wonderfully crafted zones to explore, Dynamic Events, expanded Personal Story, etc.) then I’d be it’s biggest supporter. Sadly, for the most part I see it being used as a system to deliver the kinds of things I hate about other MMOs (the kinds of things the developers originally wanted to avoid).

And so I’m hoping it either evolves or goes away. For that to happen, unfortunately, players have to stop logging in in the numbers they’re doing. It’s my hope that this happens in sufficient numbers for the change I desire to happen, but I’m not hoping it happens in such large numbers that the game as a whole or anyone working on it suffers. It’s a precarious position to take, but I’m hoping the nose falls off so the face might survive, so to speak.

Galen Grey.4709:

Smith.1826:

That’s great, I agree.

However, I think it’s absurd that someone joining now will have missed a year’s worth of content, and as I mentioned when I first replied to you, I’m having a real hard time seeing an issue with allowing players to be able to (re)experience most of this content as they choose.

I know not all of it is feasible to bring back – namely things like the first Flame and Frost that affected a landmass – but otherwise, what’s to lose? The “feeling” of a “living world”? I’d be willing to let go with some of that “feeling” if it meant more people got to enjoy all the game’s content, I’d like to hope you would as well.

This concept of “disposing content” never made much sense to me. Maybe it’s “okay” because its an MMO thing? At least in WoW you can head back to the content from the last three expansions with a friend and still see the old content

Its a classic case of you cannot make an omlette without breaking a few eggs. You can either have a dynamic story but loose content or you have a static story and keep everything.

That all depends on the context and presentation. You can’t keep content like Flame and Frost around forever, but you could keep MF (as they’re already doing!). I’m sure the Queen’s Gauntlet could stick around, too. Same with SAB. It all depends on how they make it.

Galen Grey.4709:

Having tons of new content sounds great on paper but it frightens me in a game like Gw2 where no content ever experience, it might pull players too thin and activities that require a healthy number of players to be enjoyable might suffer.

The problem there is the content requiring any number of players in the first place. With their awesome scaling systems and “roleless” combat, Anet has plenty of ways to combat this. “The quality of the solo play experience is just as important to the success of an MMO as the quality of the multiplayer experience”, one of many things that Jeff Strain said that I heavily agree with.

All steps towards encouraging permanent content while getting away from temporary content. Five years worth of temporary content wont mean anything to someone who buys the game five years from now. That’s a lot of effort from the developers gone to waste.

MikaHR.1978:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

MikaHR.1978:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

If you don’t see the difference between quality-of-life changes and a grand strategy for a game that struggels to seperate itself from all others, you are delusional.

ANet is running a fair risk with the LS, they wouldn’t adapt it if it wasn’t directly related to lower sales.

You finally relized its pointless to discuss when someone cant discern even simplest of concept and ideas.

I have to admit it is hard.

Look, people like me just don’t buy stuff anymore. We are above that “get it now or it will be gone” attitude.
I am not alone, at least that’s my impression. The game is financed mostly by the in-game store at this time. Actually, I am hurting ANet by playing their game without buying stuff (they have to pay their bills anyway).

Whatever, with the LS going on like this, I will not buy anything in the near future. I have more fluff than my bank can hold anyway. What is the point of spending money?

By playing and not paying you actually send completely different message – you like the game but dont find interest n cash shop, not really resulting in desired effect.

The ONLY way to get your message across is to stop logging in, otherwise only thing you will get is more intrusive cash shop.

No, by using their bandwidth and causing costs, while not buying stuff off the store and not playing the LS, I’m just fine for now. Will the game go anywhere this way? No. But I keep my money and all options for the future. I AM a potential costumer, waiting to spend money, I AM potential.
That is where ANet has to rethink it’s strategy (make an expansion hint hint)…

Kaiyanwan.8521:

MikaHR.1978:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

MikaHR.1978:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

If you don’t see the difference between quality-of-life changes and a grand strategy for a game that struggels to seperate itself from all others, you are delusional.

ANet is running a fair risk with the LS, they wouldn’t adapt it if it wasn’t directly related to lower sales.

You finally relized its pointless to discuss when someone cant discern even simplest of concept and ideas.

I have to admit it is hard.

Look, people like me just don’t buy stuff anymore. We are above that “get it now or it will be gone” attitude.
I am not alone, at least that’s my impression. The game is financed mostly by the in-game store at this time. Actually, I am hurting ANet by playing their game without buying stuff (they have to pay their bills anyway).

Whatever, with the LS going on like this, I will not buy anything in the near future. I have more fluff than my bank can hold anyway. What is the point of spending money?

By playing and not paying you actually send completely different message – you like the game but dont find interest n cash shop, not really resulting in desired effect.

The ONLY way to get your message across is to stop logging in, otherwise only thing you will get is more intrusive cash shop.

No, by using their bandwidth and causing costs, while not buying stuff off the store and not playing the LS, I’m just fine for now. Will the game go anywhere this way? No. But I keep my money and all options for the future. I AM a potential costumer, waiting to spend money, I AM potential.
(make an expansion hint hint)…

You’re mistaken if you think you’re hurting them by logging in but not spending money on gems. The number of players logging in on a regular basis is almost as important to them as the amount of money they’re making in the gem shop.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

MikaHR.1978:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

MikaHR.1978:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

If you don’t see the difference between quality-of-life changes and a grand strategy for a game that struggels to seperate itself from all others, you are delusional.

ANet is running a fair risk with the LS, they wouldn’t adapt it if it wasn’t directly related to lower sales.

You finally relized its pointless to discuss when someone cant discern even simplest of concept and ideas.

I have to admit it is hard.

Look, people like me just don’t buy stuff anymore. We are above that “get it now or it will be gone” attitude.
I am not alone, at least that’s my impression. The game is financed mostly by the in-game store at this time. Actually, I am hurting ANet by playing their game without buying stuff (they have to pay their bills anyway).

Whatever, with the LS going on like this, I will not buy anything in the near future. I have more fluff than my bank can hold anyway. What is the point of spending money?

By playing and not paying you actually send completely different message – you like the game but dont find interest n cash shop, not really resulting in desired effect.

The ONLY way to get your message across is to stop logging in, otherwise only thing you will get is more intrusive cash shop.

No, by using their bandwidth and causing costs, while not buying stuff off the store and not playing the LS, I’m just fine for now. Will the game go anywhere this way? No. But I keep my money and all options for the future. I AM a potential costumer, waiting to spend money, I AM potential.
That is where ANet has to rethink it’s strategy (make an expansion hint hint)…

You are a potentional customer, you log in regualrly but dont spend money in cash shop.

How do we remedy that? Your own post is an answer to that. More intrusive cash shop. Because how they do metrics, game is fine and cash shop is not “attractive” enough.

They should make an expansion’s worth an expansion (like what people would expect). Than they can have my money.

If they offer it for free as part of the LS, even better. Than I will just keep my money.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Sorry, I didn’t mean to attack you personally. At this point I have made my point anyway.

Dont worry about it, I didnt take it as a personal attack, I was just cautioning you not to fall in that trap nothing else.

darkace.8925:

Vayne.8563:

Ah my bad. I apologize.

No sweat; misunderstandings happen from time to time.

Vayne.8563:

Mind you, I really like the living story, you’re still hoping something I really like to fail…

Unfortunately that’s the nature of the beast. If you like A and I like B and we can’t have both, then I’m hoping I get what I want even if it means you don’t. It’s nothing personal, of course…just human nature.

That said, I’m not against the idea of the Living Story, I just loathe how it’s being utilized. If it were being used to deliver more of the things I originally loved about the game (things like wonderfully crafted zones to explore, Dynamic Events, expanded Personal Story, etc.) then I’d be it’s biggest supporter. Sadly, for the most part I see it being used as a system to deliver the kinds of things I hate about other MMOs (the kinds of things the developers originally wanted to avoid).

And so I’m hoping it either evolves or goes away. For that to happen, unfortunately, players have to stop logging in in the numbers they’re doing. It’s my hope that this happens in sufficient numbers for the change I desire to happen, but I’m not hoping it happens in such large numbers that the game as a whole or anyone working on it suffers. It’s a precarious position to take, but I’m hoping the nose falls off so the face might survive, so to speak.

I dont think things have to be that black and white. You can have both A and B and Anet try to do that for the most part. I mean lets look at the LS so far. We had LS releases that had dungeons in them. We had LS releases that did what you wanted, enhance southsun cove, we had LS that added a great new zone, Labyrinthine Cliff. We had LS that added mini games etc.. there is a lot of variety there and I dont think they’re intending LS to provide content to one type of player and one type of player alone. Its true its been lacking on new zones front. I too hope we get more of that and I am hopeful we will, its just that probably thats a long term goal they’re working towards and probably takes a while. We’ll see.

Smith.1826:

That all depends on the context and presentation. You can’t keep content like Flame and Frost around forever, but you could keep MF (as they’re already doing!). I’m sure the Queen’s Gauntlet could stick around, too. Same with SAB. It all depends on how they make it.

Well Queen’s Gauntlet and SAB was always intended to be recurring content, they’ll definitely be back now and then.
MF and AR we’ve already been promised will be back as a fractal later on this year. If they do what they did with the mini games, we could have both our wishes. If all these instances are available on a rotation then we can all get to replay them but at the same time it would limit the amount of community fracturing.

Smith.1826:

The problem there is the content requiring any number of players in the first place. With their awesome scaling systems and “roleless” combat, Anet has plenty of ways to combat this. “The quality of the solo play experience is just as important to the success of an MMO as the quality of the multiplayer experience”, one of many things that Jeff Strain said that I heavily agree with.

All steps towards encouraging permanent content while getting away from temporary content. Five years worth of temporary content wont mean anything to someone who buys the game five years from now. That’s a lot of effort from the developers gone to waste.

Yes I agree which is why most content scales down to 1 player. But an MMO remains an MMO and if you make everything scale down to 1 you’d end up damaging that aspect. If dungeons could be played solo few if any would bother to team up. If guild missions could be soloable they wouldnt be guild missions any more. If world bosses could soloable they wouldnt feel epic.

Players will always go for the path of least resistance and thats definitely playing solo given the option.

Lets not forget that you cant make pvp mini games entirely soloable either So no matter what you do I dont think this will ever be a non issue, at least not for the good of the game.

darkace.8925:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

MikaHR.1978:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

MikaHR.1978:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

If you don’t see the difference between quality-of-life changes and a grand strategy for a game that struggels to seperate itself from all others, you are delusional.

ANet is running a fair risk with the LS, they wouldn’t adapt it if it wasn’t directly related to lower sales.

You finally relized its pointless to discuss when someone cant discern even simplest of concept and ideas.

I have to admit it is hard.

Look, people like me just don’t buy stuff anymore. We are above that “get it now or it will be gone” attitude.
I am not alone, at least that’s my impression. The game is financed mostly by the in-game store at this time. Actually, I am hurting ANet by playing their game without buying stuff (they have to pay their bills anyway).

Whatever, with the LS going on like this, I will not buy anything in the near future. I have more fluff than my bank can hold anyway. What is the point of spending money?

By playing and not paying you actually send completely different message – you like the game but dont find interest n cash shop, not really resulting in desired effect.

The ONLY way to get your message across is to stop logging in, otherwise only thing you will get is more intrusive cash shop.

No, by using their bandwidth and causing costs, while not buying stuff off the store and not playing the LS, I’m just fine for now. Will the game go anywhere this way? No. But I keep my money and all options for the future. I AM a potential costumer, waiting to spend money, I AM potential.
(make an expansion hint hint)…

You’re mistaken if you think you’re hurting them by logging in but not spending money on gems. The number of players logging in on a regular basis is almost as important to them as the amount of money they’re making in the gem shop.

Why do we have to go to extremes ?

Did people who wanted VP have to hurt arenanet for them to introduce Ascended gear? They want the game to succeed more then we do, there is no need to blackmail anyone or sacrifice yourself to get change to happen in my opinion.

Simply stating your unhappiness with something is enough. Anet dont want unhappy players, if they can fix stuff to make more players happy they will. Its all a numbers game, there is not much difference between a player thats unhappy then one that stops playing. Both of them are unlikely to pay anything.

Playing the game how you want to play it rather then how you feel pressured to play it is also enough. Example if a lot of people start playing Dynamic events and ignore champion trains Arenanet will know there is interest in DE and future release will try to provide more of that.

Blackmail and Boycots are just bad on everyone. by not playing you’re not providing arenanet with metrics on what you enjoy and thus you’re likely to be ignored. Like lets assume you quit today, fine they know you dont enjoy the game as is, but how are they to know what you enjoy? Do you want more Vertical progression, do you want no vertical progression at all, do you want housing, do you want GvG… what? If it were me an unhappy customer would be a much higher priority then a customer who has quit because 1. I can see what s/he does and thus know what s/he likes. 2. even though s/he is unhappy he is sticking with the game thus I know if I give them more of they want that change will be effective, while for a player who quit i dont know if it will be enough to get them back or if anything can get them back. 3. If they stick around when things are bad for them it shows loyalty thus if i make them happy again they’re likely to support the product.

Everyone is free to do what they want but the small things in my opinion are much more effective then drastic measures.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

They should make an expansion’s worth an expansion (like what people would expect). Than they can have my money.

If they offer it for free as part of the LS, even better. Than I will just keep my money.

Well, you now know way to actually act in a way that will not send wrong message and in a way they understand.

It was actually confirmed (for anyone that didnt understand by that point) in a post by dev in www section, that was of course removed.

Unfortunately, just stating that youre unhappy will have exactly 0 effect and thats the bottom line. If you continue to play you actually send wrong message, even if you believe in what you are doing.

First thing in communication is to communicate in a way they understand.

I do not expect ANet to listen, or react on the fact that I’m logged in or not. I am just one in a game of very many. I do not want to make a statement in game. Honestly, I don’t care too much, and if I find something more entertaining, I will stop caring at all anyways.

I just felt like people in this thread had a funtamentally wrong idea of how this kind of business works, so I felt intrigued to share my 2c… ^^

In the end, maybe ANet has a deal with NCsoft, that all money from sold copies of the main game and expansions is shared, and that ANet gets all the money from the store.

Than, and only than it might make (temporarily) sense for ANet to go with the LS, instead of expansions at this time.

Lets remember that living story is changing the world…players are having an impact on the world of Tyria.

smirks…

Galen Grey.4709:

Smith.1826:

That all depends on the context and presentation. You can’t keep content like Flame and Frost around forever, but you could keep MF (as they’re already doing!). I’m sure the Queen’s Gauntlet could stick around, too. Same with SAB. It all depends on how they make it.

Well Queen’s Gauntlet and SAB was always intended to be recurring content, they’ll definitely be back now and then.

Right, but that’s not my issue: they’re not permenant.

Smith.1826:

The problem there is the content requiring any number of players in the first place. With their awesome scaling systems and “roleless” combat, Anet has plenty of ways to combat this. “The quality of the solo play experience is just as important to the success of an MMO as the quality of the multiplayer experience”, one of many things that Jeff Strain said that I heavily agree with.

All steps towards encouraging permanent content while getting away from temporary content. Five years worth of temporary content wont mean anything to someone who buys the game five years from now. That’s a lot of effort from the developers gone to waste.

Yes I agree which is why most content scales down to 1 player. But an MMO remains an MMO and if you make everything scale down to 1 you’d end up damaging that aspect. If dungeons could be played solo few if any would bother to team up. If guild missions could be soloable they wouldnt be guild missions any more. If world bosses could soloable they wouldnt feel epic. [/quote]

I’ve had more “epic” boss fights in Dark Souls and Demon’s Souls than I’ve ever had in any MMO. That may seem beside the point, but it’s not, because like I said: it’s all in the delivery. If the fight in and of itself is interesting, challenging and fun for one person, then increasing the number of participants should simply make it all the more interesting. Even though it can be not as much fun if you’re soloing, you at least get to play the content.

Also, I may’ve been a bit presumptuous in my previous post: I’m not saying make “all content soloable”, rather that if the concern is having content that can’t be experienced due to having not enough people, make it so it doesn’t need that many people.

I can understand having “too spread out” of a playerbase due to a large gameworld, but I think this is where the LFG tool can save the day.

Players will always go for the path of least resistance and thats definitely playing solo given the option.

I think that players will always go for the path of ‘most fun’ ;p

I always play Left 4 Dead with people. It’s certainly way easier playing with bots and the only time I’ve successfully made it through expert was with bots, but playing with people is a million times more fun. If people enjoy playing with each other, they’re going to keep doing so.

Lets not forget that you cant make pvp mini games entirely soloable either…

Botmatches!

Kaiyanwan.8521:

In the end, maybe ANet has a deal with NCsoft, that all money from sold copies of the main game and expansions is shared, and that ANet gets all the money from the store.

Than, and only than it might make (temporarily) sense for ANet to go with the LS, instead of expansions at this time.

I doubt that very much. NCsoft own ANet why would they make a deal thats financially bad for them and stick to it ?

LS is not such a bad idea. Its been one of the holy grails of MMOs since I can remember, new stuff to play all the time… it might not be there but its as close as I’ve experianced.

With an Expansion you have close to a year where no new stuff is being added, its hard to keep people interested in the game for a whole year without adding new stuff for them to do. For example a lot of people here are arguing people have been quiting over the LS.. well the base game is there unchanged so would those same people keep playing if there was no LS? I highly doubt that since LS or not the game at release didnt keep them interested.

The question then becomes how many players who quit would buy a new expansion. Dont forget LS is just a medium, if they thought it was a good idea to do mini games, jumping puzzles, etc.. in LS its very likely thats exactly what they’d have done in the expansion so imagine if all the content we got to date was sold in an expansion format. How many players would have bought that?

based on the last quarter where I guess box sales weren’t that high they did $25m in revenue which is potentially $100m a year. Once they release in asia there is a good chance that number will double. $200m a year in mostly microtransaction is more then double the amount of money eve online does which a lot of people consider it to be quite successful.

LS isnt doing that bad financially that is hard for one to imagine why arenanet would choose to go with for their overall strategy.

Lets keep in mind its also very very flexible.

For example, if they release most mini games and stuff and the community response to that is mostly negative they can course correct in at most 4 months (which is how much it will take to develop of file set of LS updates). If they do that mistake in an expansion it will take a whole 2 years.

One thing to add: For the 4th time now, the guild that I was in has disbanded and quit the game.

First one was early on, within a few weeks. Hardly knew these guys but they stopped playing outright. Not sure why.

2nd was right around the time guild missions came about. Our small guild saw what was needed for guild missions and gave up. They left.

Third was a guild that I had many friends in and I actually felt comfortable in for a change. They stopped playing when Living Story patches started back with Flame/Frost.

Fourth was a new guild that was WvW centric. Guild leader gave up on trying to recruit people for WvW because everyone was sucked out of WvW and into LS.

Yeah, positive impacts..but I guess Im one small cornflake in a bowl of cornflakes. Stop peeing in the cornflakes please.

@Galen Grey(I dont want to quote):

Whether or not it is a holy grail of MMOs remains to be seen. You sound like an arenanet employee posting on his personal account because that is exactly what they say.

Anyways, sure lots of content is good. GOOD content is good. Since living story has been introduced you can’t say that the story line and the combat-esq content is better than a well thought out, tested, PTR tested expansion/3-6 month content patch. How was flame and frost or skypirates better than a 3-6 month content patch where you get an entire new zone, new mobs, new dallies for new rewards, new raid, maybe a new dungeons, class adjustments..all in one patch. Sure, not everyone wants raids but the point is the amount and quality of things you get when you actually have time to develop them is far greater than what we are being fed.

For me, there is no comparison between even Queen’s Jubilee vs what Blizzard has been doing with WoW this most recent expansion. I think MoP is the most controversial expansion to date with many people hating it and the changes coming to late, but they’ve added new zones and gaming systems/features/activities at a 3-6 month rate..and its quality. Zerging your tail off in the gauntlet is…quality?

I wish people would sit down and really compare line for line that of a 3-6 month content patch vs a 2week LS patch.

Smith.1826:

Right, but that’s not my issue: they’re not permenant.

No they’re not permanent, cant argue with that

Smith.1826:

Also, I may’ve been a bit presumptuous in my previous post: I’m not saying make “all content soloable”, rather that if the concern is having content that can’t be experienced due to having not enough people, make it so it doesn’t need that many people.

I can understand having “too spread out” of a playerbase due to a large gameworld, but I think this is where the LFG tool can save the day.

Dont worry about, we’re discussing ideas here, its never pretentious to give out an opinion!

Its definitely possible to get around the requirement of having a set number of players to play content. Its entirely possible to have every bit of content that scales down to 1, not denying that. But would it be healthy for an MMO? If you want to run a dungeon would you rather wait a few minutes to set up a group that might be bad at playing the game having you possibly take a lot longer then required or even worst have a couple of players rage quit forcing you spend more time rather then just go do it on your own with a guaranteed easy run and certain success? Honestly I think it would kill the multi player aspect if that where to happen.

Smith.1826:

I think that players will always go for the path of ‘most fun’ ;p

I would honestly love to agree with you, even pray to the MMO gods if need be but alas thats not how most players act.

When the game launched and even today to a degree people complained about zergs and how they made the game to easy. They had an easy solution to that, move away from the zerg for 5 seconds and play solo or with a smaller group. Entirely doable and I know except for a very few expections thats how I always played the game yet players persisted in zerging and complain how that was not fun. Why did they do it? fast leveling and quicker rewards.

dailies… people complain they need to spend 30 mins per day grinding the daily before they can start having fun. Irony is in nearly all cases whatever they’re going to do for fun will get the daily finished or just leave a few minutes of play to get it done but they have to fix it first cause its the quickest way to get the reward which is more important then the fun.

Crafting, be it ascended weapon, legendary whatever. Each of these is designed to use stuff from nearly everywhere in the game. Today you feel like doing events in lornar’s pass? great you’re going to advance towards your goal and you’re going to be doing what you enjoy. Do people do that? no they have to grind the required materials in sequence to get the reward quickly. If you need another say 15 dungeon runs there is no way most people are going to wait until they feel like running those 15 dungeons or join their friends now and again and run those dungeons organically. no they will start and do dungeon after dungeon until they get all 15 done. Most of them will not even alternate content to get a break from the routine. Why? because again its the path that offers the least resistance to your reward.

Personally I think the game would have gone in a more favorable direction had people gone for fun rather then the path of least resistance. If a lot of players did events which they found fun at max level rather then farm events in Orr which they hated but was more profitable we’d have more updates that included new DE then more content that provides profitable rewards cycling in different areas in order to move population around the game rather then have it segregated in one spot.

May be wrong but unfortunately I dont think I am.

Vayne.8563:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Vayne.8563:

I have different conversations with friends.

What’s new in the game. The living story. This week we’re fighting T’quatl. It’s a pretty epic dragon battle. Next week, there’s a new dungeon path coming into the game.

It’s not about what’s gone, it’s about what’s coming. You’re always two weeks away from something new…and you never know what it’s going to be.

To me that’s a selling point.

Fair enough point, that for you it sells the game. There are quite a few people who don’t see it this way. I don’t know the numbers nor do you, but it is fair to say that there are going to be people who dislike temporary content. I happen to be one of those players and obviously I am not alone in feeling that way as some of these recounting’s can attest to.

I guarantee you that if players weren’t logging in in increasingly larger numbers, Anet would not have added three teams to the living story team.

They didn’t look at the numbers, say this isn’t working and ramp it up.

Actually, you’re probably wrong. They added the teams after Flame and Frost (you know the “expansion’s worth of content” that was month 1. go find dead bodies. Month 2. Give the momentos back to the families Month3. Don’t know, didn’t do it. Month 4. Awesome dungeon you will never see again, so come burn out.

Living story was not working until they ramped it up and to be truthful it still is not working correctly. No one wants temporary content, nothing of value is added to the game.

incognito.4019:

Vayne.8563:

ShadowPuppet.3746:

Vayne.8563:

I have different conversations with friends.

What’s new in the game. The living story. This week we’re fighting T’quatl. It’s a pretty epic dragon battle. Next week, there’s a new dungeon path coming into the game.

It’s not about what’s gone, it’s about what’s coming. You’re always two weeks away from something new…and you never know what it’s going to be.

To me that’s a selling point.

Fair enough point, that for you it sells the game. There are quite a few people who don’t see it this way. I don’t know the numbers nor do you, but it is fair to say that there are going to be people who dislike temporary content. I happen to be one of those players and obviously I am not alone in feeling that way as some of these recounting’s can attest to.

I guarantee you that if players weren’t logging in in increasingly larger numbers, Anet would not have added three teams to the living story team.

They didn’t look at the numbers, say this isn’t working and ramp it up.

Actually, you’re probably wrong. They added the teams after Flame and Frost (you know the “expansion’s worth of content” that was month 1. go find dead bodies. Month 2. Give the momentos back to the families Month3. Don’t know, didn’t do it. Month 4. Awesome dungeon you will never see again, so come burn out.

Living story was not working until they ramped it up and to be truthful it still is not working correctly. No one wants temporary content, nothing of value is added to the game.

And to top it off, no one ASKED for content every 2 weeks and we didnt ask for Living Story. People HAVE asked for Condition builds to become viable. People have asked for more dungeons and current dungeon revamps. People have asked for more things to do in WvW.

cesmode.4257:

@Galen Grey(I dont want to quote):

Whether or not it is a holy grail of MMOs remains to be seen. You sound like an arenanet employee posting on his personal account because that is exactly what they say.

Anyways, sure lots of content is good. GOOD content is good. Since living story has been introduced you can’t say that the story line and the combat-esq content is better than a well thought out, tested, PTR tested expansion/3-6 month content patch. How was flame and frost or skypirates better than a 3-6 month content patch where you get an entire new zone, new mobs, new dallies for new rewards, new raid, maybe a new dungeons, class adjustments..all in one patch. Sure, not everyone wants raids but the point is the amount and quality of things you get when you actually have time to develop them is far greater than what we are being fed.

For me, there is no comparison between even Queen’s Jubilee vs what Blizzard has been doing with WoW this most recent expansion. I think MoP is the most controversial expansion to date with many people hating it and the changes coming to late, but they’ve added new zones and gaming systems/features/activities at a 3-6 month rate..and its quality. Zerging your tail off in the gauntlet is…quality?

I wish people would sit down and really compare line for line that of a 3-6 month content patch vs a 2week LS patch.

Why do I sound like anet employee? because I like what they’re doing? do you honestly believe no one does?

No I cant say that and I wouldnt say that. Its started really bad and they had a lot of game breaking bugs to start with. I still remember in lost shores we had crucial NPCs that you had to attack which they were suppose to turn neutral when you get them to 10% that would get killed overwhelmed by an incredible amount of DPS from so many players at ones that would probably get them down by more then 10% in a single shot. Compare that with the latest releases, sure there are still issues but they’re really minor now so they’re definitely getting better at this.

would a 3 – 6 months patch have better stability? probably not.. why? because the content patches we’re getting are actually on a 4 month cycle. we get a release every 2 weeks but each of those releases have been worked on for 4 months. They got 4 teams each team does 1 month worth of content split into 2 releases.

as for type of content, what makes you think a single content update in a 6 month period would be any different then 12 LS releases? Nothing is stopping them from doing new zones, new dungeons, new mobs, new dailies or class adjustments… so much so they already did all of that multiple times now with LS.

Raids is something we didnt get yet. They said they were working on it a few months ago… we didnt get that yet. unless that was tequalt but dont think so.

Zerging your tail off in pavilion is quality content if thats what you enjoy. I spend my time upstairs doing the queen’s gauntlet and that was extremely good content, challenging and fun.

Its not fair to compare 1 2 week release with 6 months worth of releases by another MMO.

compare 6 months worth of 2 week releases with 6 months worth of release by another MMO. Based on WoW wiki WoW players in the last 6 months got 1 battle ground, 1 arena, 4x scenarios and 6x existant scenarios have a new difficulty levels.

In gw2 we got:
2 worlds, 6 zones in SAB
31 new guild missions
custom PvP Arenas
Spectator mode
WvW upgrades
4x dungeons
new dynamic events
6x new mini game
1x new meta event
2x new jumping puzzle
2x new zone
1x new resource
12x solo mini boss fights
1x new world event (the clockwork invasion)
1x update world boss event

if you’re a dungeon person WoW probably offered bigger quality, but in terms of content and variety LS is top dog by far!

Kaiyanwan.8521:

I do not expect ANet to listen, or react on the fact that I’m logged in or not. I am just one in a game of very many. I do not want to make a statement in game. Honestly, I don’t care too much, and if I find something more entertaining, I will stop caring at all anyways.

I just felt like people in this thread had a funtamentally wrong idea of how this kind of business works, so I felt intrigued to share my 2c… ^^

Well, youre making a statement whether you like it or not, and when you get more living story AND more intrusive cash shop (probably 2 things you DONT want) im sure there will be some Vayne or Galen Gray (or w/e) to tell you thats EXACTLY what you asked for since their metrics showed so

Yes, you will be /facepalming all over, but thats how things work around here heh

Ah the proverbial “If thats what you enjoy, its good” argument. Apply that to anything.

So…what this game boils down to is that it is a game for everyone. It caters to everyone. Jack of all trades, master of none. If you like it, do it. If you dont, dont. The quality will not be up to par with the rest of the industry, but there will be something for everyone.

Using your list…

In gw2 we got:
2 worlds, 6 zones in SAB — Uhm..no? Please dont be so naieve and tell me that you consider the ‘worlds’( a super mario term ) to be actual zones in Tyria. SAB is a mini game. Cross this off your list of zones.
31 new guild missions — Gated behind influence much like a guild in WoW can be gated behind gear in order to raid…yes?
custom PvP Arenas
Spectator mode
WvW upgrades — I’ll agree here. I like the WvW upgrades but not a huge WvW player. Have to ask someone that is.
4x dungeons -How? How were there 4x the amount of dungeons added since Living Story started. Lets see..hmm, 0. Unless you are considering fractals. But then that too becomes gated behind gear. Next.
new dynamic events -- True.
6x new mini game — Yes mini games! Because thats why we have stats on our gear. For minigames!
1x new meta event -..invasions? Oh the mobs that just stand still until 100 players come along and wipe them out? Sure, if you want to consider that a meta. I liken these invasions to the old world bosses. Pushovers.
2x new jumping puzzle – I like.
2x new zone – Two new zones…where? Southsun and where else? The flying zep ship? Isnt it gone? Either way, southsun is abandonded because arenanet abandoned it twice..
1x new resource -- actually many new resources, and a few time-gated resources.
12x solo mini boss fights – Queens Jub..sure. Are these perma additions?
1x new world event (the clockwork invasion) — see the above about my points on invasions. Very quality..very quality. World changing infact.
1x update world boss event – After a year, they get around to 1 world boss update. Guess they have been too busy with LS.

Yeah, you and I will disagree with eachother on this one. Im no wow fanboy, I havent played the game seriously for about 2.5 years. But a WoW content patch craps all over a few living story patches, in my eyes.

I think the fact that a major dungeon designer and GW1 enthusiast gets laid off because he didn’t want his final dungeon to be temporary content speaks for itself.

And that’s not all the devs that have left either, but I won’t go too much into it, the information is there, and it speaks volumes about ANet right now.

They don’t even listen to their own employee’s, doesn’t get much worse than that.

Karizee.8076:

There’s actually more people playing now than at launch. Sorry your guild failed.

Proof?

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Mathias.9657:

Vayne.8563:

Mathias.9657:

haviz.1340:

I’m sure some of anet developers are sad as we all are. They wanted to make an epic mmo with esport but instead they are forced to create facebook games because metrics say so. Sadly.

Maybe they should start building a game for their players instead of stock holders.

Without stockholders there wouldn’t be a game at all.

Look at GW1, you can do both. And thank you sherlock.

Guild Wars 1 was made at a different time. A time with a lot less competition. All you need to do is look at the number of multiplayer fantasy games that were out when Guild Wars 1 came out that didn’t have a monthly subscription. There were none. Guild Wars 1 had no competition. There weren’t free MMOs everywhere you looked, with much more clout to get the name out there. No free Age of Conan, no free Lotro, no free Dungeons and Dragons Online, no free Superhero MMOs, no free Star Trek or Star Wars MMO.

I’m not sure why people don’t understand that Guild Wars 1 launched at a certain time and place, and frankly, it was far to intelligent a game to ever truly appeal to the masses. It doesn’t say much for the masses, mind you, but it’s what I believe.

It’s the WoW, EQ equation. EQ was probably the better game with the smaller audience. WoW made a lot of stuff accessible (read dumbed it down) and suddenly there were more players.

Guild Wars 1 was a great game. I won’t say otherwise.

But it was always going to be a niche game.

I have to disagree
First of all see this list. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_games

And about free to play. Well GW1 was not F2P but B2P and how many games are now really B2P? GW1. GW2 could have gone for B2P and would still be pretty unique with there payment model.

Besides that, most of the games you name where games that started as P2P and failed with that having to turn to F2P. They don’t have very big playerbases and so aren’t very big competition. In fact since GW2 release the only big other releases are just now coming in. Other big players in the market are games like WoW and EvE but they already existed when GW1 was released if you would also look at other payment models.

The list I linked clearly showed many F2P games back when GW1 was released so indeed I’m really not sure why you can have a discussion about that. The facts are there.

And secondly, saying something is B2P because you buy the game is flawed.. We are taking about the payment model that means.. how does a company generates most of the income. What is there focus for income!

F2P games make there money mainly with a in game cash-shop. (Like GW2 is doing now)

P2P games make there money mainly with subscriptions. (WoW, EvE)

B2P games make there money mainly with the sales of the game that include expansions for ongoing income. (GW1)

GW1 Was a B2P game as it focused on the income of the game sales including expansion.

GW2 is at this moment more of a F2P game because at this moment it focus mainly on the cash-shop for income. I hope they shift back to B2P because it’s not good for the game but nevertheless at this moment it’s more F2P.

WoW is P2P as it focuses in subscription.

It’s funny how some people go against this because you had to pay for GW2 to get is so it is B2P.. But they do agree WoW is P2P, well guess what, you had to buy WoW so then it’s a B2P game isn’kitten no. We are talking about the payment model and so we are talking about how a company generates its main income.

GW1 was B2P and at that time there where many P2P and F2P games.

GW2 is now F2P and there are still some P2P games but not many and there are many F2P games. So if GW2 would like to be unique in that point (what you basically say) they have to go back to B2P. I think they need to turn back to B2P because it’s better for the game.. But there payment model now is based in income generated buy the in game cash-shop.. know as the F2P model.

BadHabitZz.1856:

For some players might be LS reason to quit but for different reasons then missing certain parts of it. They fear that LS updates are only content which GW2 ever gets so they just said to themselves “WvW is zerg vs zerg i dont enjoy it that much, future of PvE content is LS, i dont like it that much either so what do i do for fun in this game?” ……farewell GW2….

I have 6 max level characters, first two were fun to level by just doing all the PVE quests which gives you 92% of the map explored. Of course each new character was less fun as the content is just the same.

I didn’t like the living story from the start, worse were the sonic-periscopes that you could not avoid as they would not ignore you. LS was just cheap throw away content based on achievements, achievements being about the cheapest content there is.

Jumping puzzles seemed like strange content to have in an MMO, you do them once and there!s little reason to do them again,because once you know how to do them they,re just so easy.

Mini games another bad idea where mmo’s are concerned if those mini game impose on the VR world. Like that retro game with the block mobs that were seeded around the VR world.

Other issues were boss hunts and overflows, got stuck in overflows quite often even though I only played on 1 server. People farming bosses because let’s face it world drops were non existent at least that’s what I’d found whilst levelling 6 character that had done all world quests. Also there was no skill needed in killing world bosses as there were so many people killing them. Just wait around until the boss showed up kill it and hopefully get a exotic item.

I finally gave up when I started farming world mobs and found in this game even that was more boring than other mmo’s due to very poor drop rates and no interesting drops.

Devata.6589:

The list I linked clearly showed many F2P games back when GW1 was released so indeed I’m really not sure why you can have a discussion about that. The facts are there.

All I see on the list you posted are mostly games that are F2P NOW, not when Guild Wars 1 was released. Most of those, where P2P at the release of Guild Wars 1 or are/were Freemium (gear/items on the Cash Shop, not just cosmetics)

Azala Yar.7693:

BadHabitZz.1856:

For some players might be LS reason to quit but for different reasons then missing certain parts of it. They fear that LS updates are only content which GW2 ever gets so they just said to themselves “WvW is zerg vs zerg i dont enjoy it that much, future of PvE content is LS, i dont like it that much either so what do i do for fun in this game?” ……farewell GW2….

I have 6 max level characters, first two were fun to level by just doing all the PVE quests which gives you 92% of the map explored. Of course each new character was less fun as the content is just the same.

I didn’t like the living story from the start, worse were the sonic-periscopes that you could not avoid as they would not ignore you. LS was just cheap throw away content based on achievements, achievements being about the cheapest content there is.

Jumping puzzles seemed like strange content to have in an MMO, you do them once and there!s little reason to do them again,because once you know how to do them they,re just so easy.

Mini games another bad idea where mmo’s are concerned if those mini game impose on the VR world. Like that retro game with the block mobs that were seeded around the VR world.

Other issues were boss hunts and overflows, got stuck in overflows quite often even though I only played on 1 server. People farming bosses because let’s face world drops were non existent at least that,s what I’d whilst levelling 6 character that had done all world quests. Also there was no skill needed in killing world bosses as there were so many people killing them. Just wait around until the boss showed up kill it and hopefully get a exotic item.

I finally gave up when I started farming world mobs and found in this game even that was more boring than other mmo’s due to very poor drop rates and no interesting drops.

I love jumping puzzles but you are correct that once you know them they become easy. An easy fix for this is working with many moving objects you have to jump on and making the movement random. This is not hard to do ffom a software engineer viewpoint. Then make the puzzle extremely hard and because movement is random it will stay hard.. you can’t learn it. End with a good reward and chance for a unique reward and you have a great JP that will stay great after multiple times.

Mini games are good from a role playing viewpoint and to have things to do with friends. But for that they should be persistent in the game at places where you can expect them and you should be able to join as a group.

The no interesting drops it partly because they want a lot of interesting stuff in the gem-store or as a grind.. Get tokens our laurels or… However they would have done it like we did see in Molten facility. There was a very rare drop for a cool mini and a cool backpack and a special recipe and the overall loot was also good. Besides that the dungeon was not to long but fun and challenging. Thats the sort of stuff we need to see everywhere.

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

The list I linked clearly showed many F2P games back when GW1 was released so indeed I’m really not sure why you can have a discussion about that. The facts are there.

All I see on the list you posted are mostly games that are F2P NOW, not when Guild Wars 1 was released. Most of those, where P2P at the release of Guild Wars 1 or are/were Freemium (gear/items on the Cash Shop, not just cosmetics)

There where more P2P games back then but there were also multiple F2P game, but the real issue here (or what Vayne was talking about) is that GW1 was unique because is was B2P.

GW2 could still be unique being B2P but it uses more of a F2P system like many games.

Like Vayne said yes time did change but the thing that GW1 was unique with is B2P and GW2 would not be able to be unique with it anymore is flawed because B2P is still pretty unique.. What is strange because it really is the best system imho. Main reason companies don’t go for it is because they think they make more money with other payment models.

And before somebody tels me.. well those people for sure know more about that then you.. Well those same people also went for P2P over the last 9 years and I have been saying for many years that P2P would not work anymore. Those so called professionals where wrong about that so they might also now be wrong about B2P bringing in less money then F2P. The big difference however is that it does require more of a commitment to the game.

And what you sell in the cash-shop does not really change your payment model. Freemium like you say still generates income from the cash-shop like many F2P games do today. GW1 generated money with expansions. Thats the difference.