Guild Wars 2

Jerus.4350:

This is one of the most depressing posts I’ve read. God I hope the devs weren’t that oblivious to how their game could be played.

It was last april I believe that they gave Warriors the ability to pretty much maintain 25 might on their entire team. Were they really oblivious to that and didn’t intend for it to happen? They gave Eles long lasting fire fields and a dozen blast options, but they didn’t intend for them to be used intelligently? That’s just a horrifying thought. That the devs could be that oblivious to the possibilities within their own game.

I will say though, this change won’t really affect me, I’m simply keeping up with the topic as entertainment, but some of the posts here are just so wrong.

The bolded though is again, exactly what I was saying. THey’re punishing good play and promoting bad play. You don’t have to play meta to value covering all yoru bases. Whether you’re in Nomads or Zerk gear might will be very helpful, fury as well. Protection is always nice. Correct use of Aegis/blinds/reflects will prove invaluable. Just because you run a certain build or prefer to play a different way doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be working as a team to provide all the boons you find useful. I’d point out that Staff guard can pump out 12+ stacks of might.

It’s my experience that designers pretty much always underestimate the full impact of what the players will do with their stuff. It’s very easy to get trapped in how you know it’s supposed to happen, and it’s very easy to miss edge cases. We’ve had more time to take apart the system, and we outnumber them several hundred thousand to one.

Every game works this way. Players find bugs, exploits, and tactics that the devs didn’t expect, and they have to either roll with them or fix them if they feel they’re destructive enough. It’s not depressing, it’s reality. And it’s a bright mark to the dedication and the creativity of the players.

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

This is one of the most depressing posts I’ve read. God I hope the devs weren’t that oblivious to how their game could be played.

It was last april I believe that they gave Warriors the ability to pretty much maintain 25 might on their entire team. Were they really oblivious to that and didn’t intend for it to happen? They gave Eles long lasting fire fields and a dozen blast options, but they didn’t intend for them to be used intelligently? That’s just a horrifying thought. That the devs could be that oblivious to the possibilities within their own game.

I will say though, this change won’t really affect me, I’m simply keeping up with the topic as entertainment, but some of the posts here are just so wrong.

The bolded though is again, exactly what I was saying. THey’re punishing good play and promoting bad play. You don’t have to play meta to value covering all yoru bases. Whether you’re in Nomads or Zerk gear might will be very helpful, fury as well. Protection is always nice. Correct use of Aegis/blinds/reflects will prove invaluable. Just because you run a certain build or prefer to play a different way doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be working as a team to provide all the boons you find useful. I’d point out that Staff guard can pump out 12+ stacks of might.

It’s my experience that designers pretty much always underestimate the full impact of what the players will do with their stuff. It’s very easy to get trapped in how you know it’s supposed to happen, and it’s very easy to miss edge cases. We’ve had more time to take apart the system, and we outnumber them several hundred thousand to one.

Every game works this way. Players find bugs, exploits, and tactics that the devs didn’t expect, and they have to either roll with them or fix them if they feel they’re destructive enough. It’s not depressing, it’s reality. And it’s a bright mark to the dedication and the creativity of the players.

There’s a big difference between “Ohh dang, they found out how to get 21 stacks of might vs 15 kept up by Ele” and “Omg how is this group keeping 25 stacks consistently when we knowingly gave a single player the ability to stack 15 by themselves!!!!”

I mean, I agree with what you’re saying, but it’s the degree that’s astonishing and I hope the devs aren’t as dumb as you seem to be implying.

Fire field + 2 blasts in utility + 2 blasts on scepter, 2 blasts on Focus, 2 blasts on Dagger offhand, 1 blast on dagger mainhand, even a trait to allow a dodge for another blast, Staff has 1, and a Conjure that auto attacks with them for heaven’s sake! How could they not have known that Eles could blast fire fields for quite a bit of might? Then take another couple players and all together they wouldn’t have enough blasts or other might optoins to maintain it at 25?

And how do you explain phalanx strength + Forcefull greatsword, I mean that doesn’t even take creativity, did they test it at all if they didn’t want 25 stacks of might to be a thing?

I like to think the devs have a bit better understanding of their game than that.

Windsagio.1340:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

The ideal damage rotations have been posted. One can calculate the theoretical loss in time based on those. You’ve not done that. All you’ve done is made derogatory hyperbolic statements describing me as a “second counter” and a “raging gamer” while fundamentally showing you don’t understand what is going on.

1. Condition cap nerfed conditions.
2. Ferocity nerf nerfed zerkers.
3. FGS nerfed speed clear parties. Of these, this one was the one that was on another tier and is the one I think was justified. None of the others were.
4. Might is now being nerfed.

Patch after patch the same encounters have been made slower and slower. It’s not on the measure of seconds. It’s on the measure of minutes, and for some of us this makes a difference. Now please go read up on this topics and understand what’s going on before coming back.

Edit: When I’m talking about encounters being made slower, I of course mean level 80 content. As Jerus pointed out above, scaling made lower level content easier.

Ideal rotations change as the game changes, welcome to the modern era.

Also, yes they’re reducing damage output. Undoubtedly because they think damage output is too high.

Despite your deep need to make it personal, I don’t really have a dog in the fight as to the specific change. I am however very interested in trying to get people out of the angry mob mode of game design. You (among several others) are more interested in being mad about the change and laying blame for the change than you are in trying to consider what Anet’s design reasons for the change were or thinking seriously about the impact from a design perspective.

It’s all ARGH THEY"RE CATERING TO THE BADS AND IT DOESN’T HURT ME AS MUCH AS IT HURTS THE BADS BECAUSE I THINK IT’S JUST REVENGE AND I’M NOT SO SUBTLY TRYING TO GUILT TRIP THEM INTO QUIT ASKING FOR THINGS THAT I DON’T LIKE!

Man it’s getting really hot in here with all that straw you’ve set alight.

I’ve considered design implications and motive. I think both are misplaced. You’ve done little but lay ad hominems at my feet.

Also, I intend no subtlety: people should stop asking for nerfs to damage centered builds.

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

This is one of the most depressing posts I’ve read. God I hope the devs weren’t that oblivious to how their game could be played.

It was last april I believe that they gave Warriors the ability to pretty much maintain 25 might on their entire team. Were they really oblivious to that and didn’t intend for it to happen? They gave Eles long lasting fire fields and a dozen blast options, but they didn’t intend for them to be used intelligently? That’s just a horrifying thought. That the devs could be that oblivious to the possibilities within their own game.

I will say though, this change won’t really affect me, I’m simply keeping up with the topic as entertainment, but some of the posts here are just so wrong.

The bolded though is again, exactly what I was saying. THey’re punishing good play and promoting bad play. You don’t have to play meta to value covering all yoru bases. Whether you’re in Nomads or Zerk gear might will be very helpful, fury as well. Protection is always nice. Correct use of Aegis/blinds/reflects will prove invaluable. Just because you run a certain build or prefer to play a different way doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be working as a team to provide all the boons you find useful. I’d point out that Staff guard can pump out 12+ stacks of might.

It’s my experience that designers pretty much always underestimate the full impact of what the players will do with their stuff. It’s very easy to get trapped in how you know it’s supposed to happen, and it’s very easy to miss edge cases. We’ve had more time to take apart the system, and we outnumber them several hundred thousand to one.

Every game works this way. Players find bugs, exploits, and tactics that the devs didn’t expect, and they have to either roll with them or fix them if they feel they’re destructive enough. It’s not depressing, it’s reality. And it’s a bright mark to the dedication and the creativity of the players.

There’s a big difference between “Ohh dang, they found out how to get 21 stacks of might vs 15 kept up by Ele” and “Omg how is this group keeping 25 stacks consistently when we knowingly gave a single player the ability to stack 15 by themselves!!!!”

I mean, I agree with what you’re saying, but it’s the degree that’s astonishing and I hope the devs aren’t as dumb as you seem to be implying.

Fire field + 2 blasts in utility + 2 blasts on scepter, 2 blasts on Focus, 2 blasts on Dagger offhand, 1 blast on dagger mainhand, even a trait to allow a dodge for another blast, Staff has 1, and a Conjure that auto attacks with them for heaven’s sake! How could they not have known that Eles could blast fire fields for quite a bit of might? Then take another couple players and all together they wouldn’t have enough blasts or other might optoins to maintain it at 25?

And how do you explain phalanx strength + Forcefull greatsword, I mean that doesn’t even take creativity, did they test it at all if they didn’t want 25 stacks of might to be a thing?

I like to think the devs have a bit better understanding of their game than that.

Let me reword slightly because you do make a good point.

How about I’d guess they didn’t expect total damage output to be as high as it was, or group mitigation to be as good as it is.

The example you gave is perfect for the problem, what with IB5 > Burn. At the same time they need to be very careful because they don’t want to make pure-damage builds invalid either, so they can’t overnerf.

Might stacks are actually a really clever fix for that, imo. Most groups don’t stack full might, and the ones that do are more likely to do the other things that really push damage and trivialize encounters. It does a very good job of scaling with the amount of optimization a group has, because more optimized groups stack might better and over more of the fight.

The other possible changes they could do to the example problem are all more far-reaching and have more potential to adverse effects (ie weakening active defense skills hurts weak players more than it hurts strong players, and further redusing power/precision/ferocity would both hurt groups that are less maximized more and potentially make direct damage builds unviable, if they went far enough, removing the effectiveness of CC on bosses even more can make the fight super boring, etc).

Nerfing might per stack is a clever scaling way to reduce the damage output where it’s at its very highest (and thus potentially problematic) and reduce it less where it’s already lower.

Windsagio.1340:

Nerfing might per stack is a clever scaling way to reduce the damage output where it’s at its very highest (and thus potentially problematic) and reduce it less where it’s already lower.

It’s being reduced more percentage-wise where damage is lower. Celestial/nomad/non-power builds benefit more from might stacking than full zerkers, percentage wise. The person who has 1000 power and makes it to 1800 with might is going to feel this nerf more than the person with 3000 power who makes it to 3800. Note I’m not using real numbers but you get the point.

Carighan.6758:

Harper.4173:

Why? Why do you want to change it? Do you think it will make stale content less stale? Or bad encounter design any better?

The state of PVE is likewise mostly because of the fact that no new content has been added for 1 and a half years since release. And even then it was very little.

Well, no, I don’t think the lack of new content has anything to do with the quality of the existent content (that’d be absurd).
And while there’s a lot of things I would change about it, one of those things is reigning in player power. Especially in the extremes. That is, across the game I’d make glass-specs slightly less glassy and bunker-specs slightly less tanky. Not by extreme amounts, either. Part of that would be to also sand off the extremes of all optional effects, one of them being might.
Though my ideal solution would take boons and conditions back to the drawing board and make them more binary, far far far less common and far more powerful and fight-deciding when deployed. But that’s besides the point because it’d be too large a rework.

Having wide extremes isn’t necessarily a bad thing. The lack of these extremes if they were to be “sanded down” would certainly make lots of players lose interest.

There are a lot of players who live for that do or die 1hit KO moment that very high pure glass gives.

There are players who like shrugging off hits like it’s not even a thing.

It adds flavor – but I do understand what you mean.

I don’t believe the game will ever have a major overhaul or rework – it would simply be too much – and personally I like the current system and wouldn’t like to see it changed.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Windsagio.1340:

Nerfing might per stack is a clever scaling way to reduce the damage output where it’s at its very highest (and thus potentially problematic) and reduce it less where it’s already lower.

It’s being reduced more percentage-wise where damage is lower. Celestial/nomad/non-power builds benefit more from might stacking than full zerkers, percentage wise. The person who has 1000 power and makes it to 1800 with might is going to feel this nerf more than the person with 3000 power who makes it to 3800. Note I’m not using real numbers but you get the point.

Percentagewise is a red herring, it’s a clever twist, but it’s just that. They want to reduce the absolute damage at the high end, this is a way to do it with relatively few side effects.

It’s not about build, go find a zerk meta thread or something.

High damage also in critic and might damage. Why nerf might and not critic damage? Why no nerf for fire/air sigil? Why no nerf to high critic damge traits? This “might damage nerf” is joke to instant kill class, why? fire/air sigil+zerk weapon+critic damage traits is source of instant kill damage class. Is source of not fun; not might only. Instant kill or high damage kill class will switch to critic for other instant high damage kill.

If want fun; nerf all; not one only. If want fun also; fix this very old problem 2012; https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/The-thief-and-its-gameplay-Your-feedback-Merged/first

Can not be serious and laugh same time- serious; fix ALL high damage+very old problem.

Example; if all is guilty, all should be punish. Punish one only make ruling joke= no serious judge

Than can have low damage= fun

Windsagio.1340:

it’s all ARGH THEY"RE CATERING TO THE BADS AND IT DOESN’T HURT ME AS MUCH AS IT HURTS THE BADS

You’re implying this game takes skill?

Windsagio.1340:

Let me reword slightly because you do make a good point.

How about I’d guess they didn’t expect total damage output to be as high as it was, or group mitigation to be as good as it is.

The example you gave is perfect for the problem, what with IB5 > Burn. At the same time they need to be very careful because they don’t want to make pure-damage builds invalid either, so they can’t overnerf.

Might stacks are actually a really clever fix for that, imo. Most groups don’t stack full might, and the ones that do are more likely to do the other things that really push damage and trivialize encounters. It does a very good job of scaling with the amount of optimization a group has, because more optimized groups stack might better and over more of the fight.

The other possible changes they could do to the example problem are all more far-reaching and have more potential to adverse effects (ie weakening active defense skills hurts weak players more than it hurts strong players, and further redusing power/precision/ferocity would both hurt groups that are less maximized more and potentially make direct damage builds unviable, if they went far enough, removing the effectiveness of CC on bosses even more can make the fight super boring, etc).

Nerfing might per stack is a clever scaling way to reduce the damage output where it’s at its very highest (and thus potentially problematic) and reduce it less where it’s already lower.

My real complaint is with that word, Scaling. Since April everything below level 80 has been much easier than it was before April. When they introduced Ferocity they screwed up scaling and now we’re dealing far more damage when scaled down.

I really wish they would have addressed that any time since April instead of picking and choosing other things.

Might stack + Heavy damage will trivialize most sub 80 enemies, but when you have lvl 80 content you aren’t bursting through trivializing it. Sure some fights are short but they still go through rounds of their attacks unless there is some other issue happening (Lupi reflect nonsense).

Comparisons are a three-edged sword.

That said, if I compare damage bonuses in other games to those in GW2, I find that:

• GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where critical chance can approach 100%
• GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where critical damage exceeds 200% of base damage
• GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where a temporary damage buff (Might, in this case) could/can approach the base damage of a max level character (Note: that’s the buff benefit by itself, not factoring in the synergistic benefits of critical chance/damage)
• GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where the trade-off for maximizing damage still leaves players with substantial defensive options — if they’re good enough to use them

(I make no guarantees that there aren’t such games, just that I’ve never seen one)

Based (purely) on a comparative analysis of damage across games, GW2 players have (and will still) enjoy a massive amount of damage boost over that afforded in other games.

I deplore the neglected state of dungeons. I understand the desire to maximize effectiveness. I understand that eking out another few seconds on a time generates a goal that 2+ year old content does not generate on its own. However, I have a hard time arguing with the change if the only thing I look at is the actual numbers.

It’s my hope that the game will provide new challenges for those who push the dungeon meta. I’m not going to hold my breath, or make any bets on it. In the meantime, y’all are in grin-and-bear-it territory. At least that should be familiar.

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

Let me reword slightly because you do make a good point.

How about I’d guess they didn’t expect total damage output to be as high as it was, or group mitigation to be as good as it is.

The example you gave is perfect for the problem, what with IB5 > Burn. At the same time they need to be very careful because they don’t want to make pure-damage builds invalid either, so they can’t overnerf.

Might stacks are actually a really clever fix for that, imo. Most groups don’t stack full might, and the ones that do are more likely to do the other things that really push damage and trivialize encounters. It does a very good job of scaling with the amount of optimization a group has, because more optimized groups stack might better and over more of the fight.

The other possible changes they could do to the example problem are all more far-reaching and have more potential to adverse effects (ie weakening active defense skills hurts weak players more than it hurts strong players, and further redusing power/precision/ferocity would both hurt groups that are less maximized more and potentially make direct damage builds unviable, if they went far enough, removing the effectiveness of CC on bosses even more can make the fight super boring, etc).

Nerfing might per stack is a clever scaling way to reduce the damage output where it’s at its very highest (and thus potentially problematic) and reduce it less where it’s already lower.

My real complaint is with that word, Scaling. Since April everything below level 80 has been much easier than it was before April. When they introduced Ferocity they screwed up scaling and now we’re dealing far more damage when scaled down.

I really wish they would have addressed that any time since April instead of picking and choosing other things.

Might stack + Heavy damage will trivialize most sub 80 enemies, but when you have lvl 80 content you aren’t bursting through trivializing it. Sure some fights are short but they still go through rounds of their attacks unless there is some other issue happening (Lupi reflect nonsense).

This result might be comprimised because I just went through a ‘all stages fractal drinking game’

The rules were as follows;
1) Every fractalt, take a drink
2) Every time you are defeated, take a drink
3) Every time you get a fractal specific drop, take a drink
4) (up to 37 where we were too cdrunk for this to be wise) every time you say the ‘word of the instance’, which can be anywehre from ‘might’ to ‘any variation on yes’ to ‘what’ take a drink.

we did a 9,19,29,37,49 run all under those rues, and we were blotto by the end.

First of all, we completed all that content despite being hilariously drunk, and although a part of that is luck (getting mai on the 49 where we were kittened up would have sucked), it was all pretty trivial even with stacking.

We were running a few hammer guardians and a phalanx warrior, but the fact that that content was doable in stackform when we were well past ‘I LOVE YOU GUYS’ and well into “kitten I CAN’T STAND UP” says something about the difficulty balance of the game.

Windsagio.1340:

the fact that that content was doable in stackform when we were well past ‘I LOVE YOU GUYS’ and well into “kitten I CAN’T STAND UP” says something about the difficulty balance of the game.

Or the skill level of being able to play a class near the point of unconsciousness. Well… the warrior cant say that…but… still.

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

Let me reword slightly because you do make a good point.

How about I’d guess they didn’t expect total damage output to be as high as it was, or group mitigation to be as good as it is.

The example you gave is perfect for the problem, what with IB5 > Burn. At the same time they need to be very careful because they don’t want to make pure-damage builds invalid either, so they can’t overnerf.

Might stacks are actually a really clever fix for that, imo. Most groups don’t stack full might, and the ones that do are more likely to do the other things that really push damage and trivialize encounters. It does a very good job of scaling with the amount of optimization a group has, because more optimized groups stack might better and over more of the fight.

The other possible changes they could do to the example problem are all more far-reaching and have more potential to adverse effects (ie weakening active defense skills hurts weak players more than it hurts strong players, and further redusing power/precision/ferocity would both hurt groups that are less maximized more and potentially make direct damage builds unviable, if they went far enough, removing the effectiveness of CC on bosses even more can make the fight super boring, etc).

Nerfing might per stack is a clever scaling way to reduce the damage output where it’s at its very highest (and thus potentially problematic) and reduce it less where it’s already lower.

My real complaint is with that word, Scaling. Since April everything below level 80 has been much easier than it was before April. When they introduced Ferocity they screwed up scaling and now we’re dealing far more damage when scaled down.

I really wish they would have addressed that any time since April instead of picking and choosing other things.

Might stack + Heavy damage will trivialize most sub 80 enemies, but when you have lvl 80 content you aren’t bursting through trivializing it. Sure some fights are short but they still go through rounds of their attacks unless there is some other issue happening (Lupi reflect nonsense).

This result might be comprimised because I just went through a ‘all stages fractal drinking game’

The rules were as follows;
1) Every fractalt, take a drink
2) Every time you are defeated, take a drink
3) Every time you get a fractal specific drop, take a drink
4) (up to 37 where we were too cdrunk for this to be wise) every time you say the ‘word of the instance’, which can be anywehre from ‘might’ to ‘any variation on yes’ to ‘what’ take a drink.

we did a 9,19,29,37,49 run all under those rues, and we were blotto by the end.

First of all, we completed all that content despite being hilariously drunk, and although a part of that is luck (getting mai on the 49 where we were kittened up would have sucked), it was all pretty trivial even with stacking.

We were running a few hammer guardians and a phalanx warrior, but the fact that that content was doable in stackform when we were well past ‘I LOVE YOU GUYS’ and well into “kitten I CAN’T STAND UP” says something about the difficulty balance of the game.

I’m not talking difficulty, I’m talking the idea that you can just burst through mechanics and trivialize them. That April patch messed things up far more than Might ever could, and fixing that would have had a far larger impact than this might nerf ever will.

All that said… fun drinking game “Drunk raiding” has always been a great game, of course I’ve passed out on a few teams “Jerus where did you go last night?” “to the floor below my chair”

GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where critical chance can approach 100%

every champion in league of legends can hit ~90%, one champion has double critical chance so he can reach cap with a lot less investment in to his build

GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where critical damage exceeds 200% of base damage

critical strikes in league do 200% damage unless you buy an item which boosts it to 250% base

GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where a temporary damage buff (Might, in this case) could/can approach the base damage of a max level character (Note: that’s the buff benefit by itself, not factoring in the synergistic benefits of critical chance/damage)

i’m pretty sure like every single game ever has builds where you can wildly exceed the base damage of a character with buffs

in league you can like double, triple, quadruple (etc.) your damage stats through damage buffs by items. baron buff used to give 40 attack damage/40 ability power which is like half of your base attack damage and I can’t remember how much the ability power is because I forgot lol

GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where the trade-off for maximizing damage still leaves players with substantial defensive options — if they’re good enough to use them

again, in league you can 100-0 burst people in like half a second and then just invuln/teleport/stealth – and like in guild wars 2 they’re all active defense mechanisms where it’s reliant on the skill of the players.

maybe you just need to play some more games

maha.7902:

GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where critical chance can approach 100%

every champion in league of legends can hit ~90%, one champion has double critical chance so he can reach cap with a lot less investment in to his build

GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where critical damage exceeds 200% of base damage

critical strikes in league do 200% damage unless you buy an item which boosts it to 250% base

GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where a temporary damage buff (Might, in this case) could/can approach the base damage of a max level character (Note: that’s the buff benefit by itself, not factoring in the synergistic benefits of critical chance/damage)

i’m pretty sure like every single game ever has builds where you can wildly exceed the base damage of a character with buffs

in league you can like double, triple, quadruple (etc.) your damage stats through damage buffs by items. baron buff used to give 40 attack damage/40 ability power which is like half of your base attack damage and I can’t remember how much the ability power is because I forgot lol

GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where the trade-off for maximizing damage still leaves players with substantial defensive options — if they’re good enough to use them

again, in league you can 100-0 burst people in like half a second and then just invuln/teleport/stealth – and like in guild wars 2 they’re all active defense mechanisms where it’s reliant on the skill of the players.

maybe you just need to play some more games

You are comparing an mmorpg with a moba?Oh lets now compare with a FPS.

-everyone should be able to headshot you from far away
-1 knife hit should 1shot the enemy
-more grenades
-new classe: sniper
-vehicles added to the game: tanks, helicopters,etc

We need to compare mmorpg’s dungeons with mmorpg’s dungeons. You also are comparing pvp with pve which does not make sense at all.

Sure in almost every game if you outgear the enemy you can one shot them in pvp, but in pve you shouldn’t be able to kill bosses from your lvl in less than 5seconds. The possible dmg output was too high and Anet did a great job nerfing might.

xDudisx.5914:

You are comparing an mmorpg with a moba?Oh lets now compare with a FPS.

We need to compare mmorpg’s dungeons with mmorpg’s dungeons.

In Guild Wars 1 people played pve team builds where you were literally invincible and could clear entire rooms of elite level mobs in seconds.

But please, continue with your lecture on cross-genre game balance.

xDudisx.5914:

We need to compare mmorpg’s dungeons with mmorpg’s dungeons.

imo it should be more like RO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1j-X9xOhgQ

thefantasticg.3984:

Windsagio.1340:

There are pve related issues to might, namely might stacking is very powerful and in some cases greatly effects the intended difficulty of encounters.

“intended difficulty” is the key phrase here. Not being bad can effect the “intended difficulty” so how are they going to nerf good players? Well, they tried by the universal vigor nerf and whatnot. It’s changes like this that just widen the gap between the goods and the bads.

initially, but in the long run it is good as the learning curve changes.

Without these global changes, the mediocre and bads would never know or never realize what set them apart from the better players, thus they would, for the most part, not strive to get more skilled. In turns a system that too heavily favors the average and bads will punish the “core” players, who usually are the ones who end up being “good players” in the first place due to their competitive attitude and time invested.

Still, if they want things to get harder, might should be reduced to 25 power/stack at least…. 5 power less is not a massive change and will only really affect PvP and dungeon speedruns so at this point, they are doing it wrong, sort of. Harder nerfs are in order to make the DPS pan out more evenly.

xDudisx.5914:

maha.7902:

GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where critical chance can approach 100%

every champion in league of legends can hit ~90%, one champion has double critical chance so he can reach cap with a lot less investment in to his build

GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where critical damage exceeds 200% of base damage

critical strikes in league do 200% damage unless you buy an item which boosts it to 250% base

GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where a temporary damage buff (Might, in this case) could/can approach the base damage of a max level character (Note: that’s the buff benefit by itself, not factoring in the synergistic benefits of critical chance/damage)

i’m pretty sure like every single game ever has builds where you can wildly exceed the base damage of a character with buffs

in league you can like double, triple, quadruple (etc.) your damage stats through damage buffs by items. baron buff used to give 40 attack damage/40 ability power which is like half of your base attack damage and I can’t remember how much the ability power is because I forgot lol

GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where the trade-off for maximizing damage still leaves players with substantial defensive options — if they’re good enough to use them

again, in league you can 100-0 burst people in like half a second and then just invuln/teleport/stealth – and like in guild wars 2 they’re all active defense mechanisms where it’s reliant on the skill of the players.

maybe you just need to play some more games

You are comparing an mmorpg with a moba?Oh lets now compare with a FPS.

-everyone should be able to headshot you from far away
-1 knife hit should 1shot the enemy
-more grenades
-new classe: sniper
-vehicles added to the game: tanks, helicopters,etc

We need to compare mmorpg’s dungeons with mmorpg’s dungeons. You also are comparing pvp with pve which does not make sense at all.

Sure in almost every game if you outgear the enemy you can one shot them in pvp, but in pve you shouldn’t be able to kill bosses from your lvl in less than 5seconds. The possible dmg output was too high and Anet did a great job nerfing might.

EQ had the same kind of stuff, though everytime we reached 100% crit chance they’d nerf us the next time they put an expansion in, so we never really lost damage, just didn’t gain as much as we could have. Other htan that we could get like 500% damage on crits, we had classes that were based around their buffing and could bring 3X the DPS to a group compared to what the individual dps classes brought themselves solo.

My Staff Ele will miss his old Sigils of Battle, but I’ll probably adapt.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Comparisons are a three-edged sword.

That said, if I compare damage bonuses in other games to those in GW2, I find that:

• GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where critical chance can approach 100%
• GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where critical damage exceeds 200% of base damage
• GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where a temporary damage buff (Might, in this case) could/can approach the base damage of a max level character (Note: that’s the buff benefit by itself, not factoring in the synergistic benefits of critical chance/damage)
• GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where the trade-off for maximizing damage still leaves players with substantial defensive options — if they’re good enough to use them

(I make no guarantees that there aren’t such games, just that I’ve never seen one)

Based (purely) on a comparative analysis of damage across games, GW2 players have (and will still) enjoy a massive amount of damage boost over that afforded in other games.

I deplore the neglected state of dungeons. I understand the desire to maximize effectiveness. I understand that eking out another few seconds on a time generates a goal that 2+ year old content does not generate on its own. However, I have a hard time arguing with the change if the only thing I look at is the actual numbers.

It’s my hope that the game will provide new challenges for those who push the dungeon meta. I’m not going to hold my breath, or make any bets on it. In the meantime, y’all are in grin-and-bear-it territory. At least that should be familiar.

Neverwinter the game your looking for is neverwinter.
Also tera gives you insane defence options on low health/def character but that game in particular you cant really choose to be glassy or choose to be tanky you choose your class and your “innate” survival is pretty much based off that.
Also wildstar eden eternal warframe and more have over 100% crit damage modifiers. infact warframe you can get over 100% crit rate and if you do that you start getting red crits for like 8x your regular crits its insane yet its still balanced because damage without crits is pretty high on weapons with low crit rate while its low but with high critical damage on weapons with high crit chance.

in short we could simply take a closer look at crit chance and fury uptime in dungeons my ele has perma 100% crit rate due to assassins gear and runes of eagle and some precision food/oil this comes at a very low power cost that gets offset with sigil of might smacking an extra stack of might every single second of the run. parred up with flame sigil not even knowing the definition of uptime i deal WAY more damage than a zerker. might we look at that?

These changes are so marginal, the zerker meta in PvE isn’t going anywhere.

Because it’s the by product of an efficient play style. People who play efficiently aren’t going anywhere so the meta they produce isn’t going anywhere.

Even if the “zerker” set was taken out of the game people would find the most optimal thing and go with that.

maha.7902:

GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where critical chance can approach 100%

Look here as an example :
http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Cap

And i don’t want to know what now is possible for damage with all that double-attack stuff.

I also remember that there was a time when characters even had reached nearly 100%
avoidance or blockchance and were nearly invulnerable, so that was also nerfed hard
with the next expansions and “normal” characters suddenly went down from maybe
80% to just 50%.

well.. seems now i NEED to run a stupid zerker build to balance out the loss i balanced out with might before…delightfull -_-

Basaltface.2786:

well.. seems now i NEED to run a stupid zerker build to balance out the loss i balanced out with might before…delightfull -_-

Welcome to my world, although I had to go zerker to balance out the april 15th nerf, which was to balance zerker. I couldn’t care less about pve but unfortunately these changes also applied to wvw.

Edit: Oh, and once you learn to survive with zerker in wvw pve is a breeze.

Jana.6831:

Basaltface.2786:

well.. seems now i NEED to run a stupid zerker build to balance out the loss i balanced out with might before…delightfull -_-

Welcome to my world, although I had to go zerker to balance out the april 15th nerf, which was to balance zerker. I couldn’t care less about pve but unfortunately these changes also applied to wvw.

Edit: Oh, and once you learn to survive with zerker in wvw pve is a breeze.

well i ran a “speudo” build with mixed stats, runes of strength and stuff to balance my char out how i need her. Tanky as all hell and decent damage, not top damage.. but more then enough for me. I dislike meta stuff..and now i am condemned to join it. Thanks a-net…

Bye-bye celestial elems, HGH engis and hambow warriors
L2p as any another classes/specs.

SilverWF.4789:

Bye-bye celestial elems, HGH engis and hambow warriors
L2p as any another classes/specs.

not dead .. just a bit less efficient.. ill continue to play the same build and adapt.

Farming Flats.5370:

SilverWF.4789:

Bye-bye celestial elems, HGH engis and hambow warriors
L2p as any another classes/specs.

not dead .. just a bit less efficient.. ill continue to play the same build and adapt.

HGH engi? Do they still exist? hahaha

Jerus.4350:

Either way, the only way this really affects me is that now when I screw up and miss a blast of might it’s ~15% less of a concern

/thread

Harper.4173:

Because it’s the by product of an efficient play style. People who play efficiently aren’t going anywhere so the meta they produce isn’t going anywhere.

Even if the “zerker” set was taken out of the game people would find the most optimal thing and go with that.

Maybe you can tell me, why do people keep talking about ’zerker as if build balance were a target of this change? If anything it looks to be a relatively build-agnostic change except in that it hits might stacking builds.

Jerus.4350:

I’m not talking difficulty, I’m talking the idea that you can just burst through mechanics and trivialize them. That April patch messed things up far more than Might ever could, and fixing that would have had a far larger impact than this might nerf ever will.

All that said… fun drinking game “Drunk raiding” has always been a great game, of course I’ve passed out on a few teams “Jerus where did you go last night?” “to the floor below my chair”

Except that they don’t necessarily want to roll back the april changes, but bring results more into line including those changes. Adjusting might is a legit part of that.

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

I’m not talking difficulty, I’m talking the idea that you can just burst through mechanics and trivialize them. That April patch messed things up far more than Might ever could, and fixing that would have had a far larger impact than this might nerf ever will.

All that said… fun drinking game “Drunk raiding” has always been a great game, of course I’ve passed out on a few teams “Jerus where did you go last night?” “to the floor below my chair”

Except that they don’t necessarily want to roll back the april changes, but bring results more into line including those changes. Adjusting might is a legit part of that.

So you’re saying that the fact that you can blow up bosses in AC in 2-3s, but bosses in COE take a good 10-20x as long, that isn’t a problem. What they’re trying to fix is they want it to take an extra second or two across the board.

Is that right? That’s what you think their desire was? Man that’s pretty dumb IMO.

Jerus.4350:

All that said… fun drinking game “Drunk raiding” has always been a great game, of course I’ve passed out on a few teams “Jerus where did you go last night?” “to the floor below my chair”

Heh, I remember passing out on some guildies at Jade Maw and then being so busy IRL that I didn’t log in for a week after.

Logged in the next weekend, said hi, and was greeted with “OMG WE THOUGHT YOU DIED” xD

Good times.

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

I’m not talking difficulty, I’m talking the idea that you can just burst through mechanics and trivialize them. That April patch messed things up far more than Might ever could, and fixing that would have had a far larger impact than this might nerf ever will.

All that said… fun drinking game “Drunk raiding” has always been a great game, of course I’ve passed out on a few teams “Jerus where did you go last night?” “to the floor below my chair”

Except that they don’t necessarily want to roll back the april changes, but bring results more into line including those changes. Adjusting might is a legit part of that.

So you’re saying that the fact that you can blow up bosses in AC in 2-3s, but bosses in COE take a good 10-20x as long, that isn’t a problem. What they’re trying to fix is they want it to take an extra second or two across the board.

Is that right? That’s what you think their desire was? Man that’s pretty dumb IMO.

That’s not what I’m saying, I’m saying that them nerfing might is part of the process of them tuning it exactly to where they want it. The changes in April are things they wanted to get in, but they ended up messing up the encounter tuning. They had a reason to initially include the tweaks you’re complaining about, so they don’t want to just strip them out.

So, they work to get the encounters where they want them while keeping in the desired featuress from the content pack.

… I feel like you’re purposefully misinterpreting what I write.

Where did I say revert the changes? They need to fix the scaling, bring it back in line. The content patch said NOTHING about adjusting scaling to make lvl 35 dungeons even easier when at level 80. It said absolutely nothing about that. But when they went in and tweaked everything they screwed up the scaling and haven’t bothered to fix it. Bosses shouldn’t be dying in less than 5s without even trying, and that’s what we have right now. People are killing the spider queen before it even loads on the screen. It’s dumb.

And why this refers to the topic is that you constantly see comments about how dumb killing bosses this fast is. Well, yeah, it is. But it only happens in lower dungeons where you are scaled down and they screwed up the scaling. Instead of addressing this at any point since April they’ve gone and done just a global chop of the damage. Why? Well, “because they think it’s needed,” I’m curious if they would feel the same if they fixed scaling first.

Believe me, I may be misinterpreting, but it’s not on purpose

You do seem to be saying you want the scaling rolled back tho.

I’m saying that they’re fixing the damage problem via the might change. The fact that they’re not doing a massive overhaul of the scaling strongly implies that they don’t think the scaling stuff is broken.

Most likely (largely speculation, natch) they’re happy with where it is at lower levels and are unhappy with the higher level stuff coming down. The might change has a huge advantage in that it primarily effects groups with much higher levels of optimization.

So they’r happy with bosses that can be killed before they even appear on the screen (looking at you Spider Queen). But unhappy with the kill rate in fractals/Arah/COE/HoTW (Big LOL on the HOTW one)?

Jerus.4350:

… I feel like you’re purposefully misinterpreting what I write.

Where did I say revert the changes? They need to fix the scaling, bring it back in line. The content patch said NOTHING about adjusting scaling to make lvl 35 dungeons even easier when at level 80. It said absolutely nothing about that. But when they went in and tweaked everything they screwed up the scaling and haven’t bothered to fix it. Bosses shouldn’t be dying in less than 5s without even trying, and that’s what we have right now. People are killing the spider queen before it even loads on the screen. It’s dumb.

And why this refers to the topic is that you constantly see comments about how dumb killing bosses this fast is. Well, yeah, it is. But it only happens in lower dungeons where you are scaled down and they screwed up the scaling. Instead of addressing this at any point since April they’ve gone and done just a global chop of the damage. Why? Well, “because they think it’s needed,” I’m curious if they would feel the same if they fixed scaling first.

Thing is they might even have to revert the spider queen using the aoes even in melee range if they were to fix scaling, or there would be a tonne of QQ. Probably a string of other dungeon related fixes would then be needed too.

There would also be a lot of QQ about the easy dungeons not being fast farms for gold anymore. Which may also “fix” the gold flooding in the economy.

I suspect anet may want to keep the low level dungeons popular – so new players come along and go “oh wow, the low level content is still so busy” however.

Personally I kind of want to see all exp mode dungeons made into level 80 content myself. But this won’t happen.

maha.7902:

GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where critical chance can approach 100%

every champion in league of legends can hit ~90%, one champion has double critical chance so he can reach cap with a lot less investment in to his build

EQ2 soft cap on critical chance is 1400%

GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where critical damage exceeds 200% of base damage

critical strikes in league do 200% damage unless you buy an item which boosts it to 250% base[/quote]

EQ2 base damage 839 after modifiers is 2,500,000

GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where a temporary damage buff (Might, in this case) could/can approach the base damage of a max level character (Note: that’s the buff benefit by itself, not factoring in the synergistic benefits of critical chance/damage)

i’m pretty sure like every single game ever has builds where you can wildly exceed the base damage of a character with buffs. In league you can like double, triple, quadruple (etc.) your damage stats through damage buffs by items. baron buff used to give 40 attack damage/40 ability power which is like half of your base attack damage and I can’t remember how much the ability power is because I forgot lol

EQ2 Damage output with temporary buffs can reach up to 35,000,000 damage per second average

maybe you just need to play some more games

Seriously QFE, GW2 is probably one of the lowest dps games i’ve played and the builds are simple.

Basaltface.2786:

Jana.6831:

Basaltface.2786:

well.. seems now i NEED to run a stupid zerker build to balance out the loss i balanced out with might before…delightfull -_-

Welcome to my world, although I had to go zerker to balance out the april 15th nerf, which was to balance zerker. I couldn’t care less about pve but unfortunately these changes also applied to wvw.

Edit: Oh, and once you learn to survive with zerker in wvw pve is a breeze.

well i ran a “speudo” build with mixed stats, runes of strength and stuff to balance my char out how i need her. Tanky as all hell and decent damage, not top damage.. but more then enough for me. I dislike meta stuff..and now i am condemned to join it. Thanks a-net…

Yeah, I’m sure these nerfs are geared toward some cheesy builds in PvP like celestial ele and hambow warrior though – not exactly taking PvE as their first consideration. When it comes to PvE, they aren’t helping anyone who dislikes meta builds by nerfing meta builds – core concept design is totally flawed and using Soldier’s doesn’t grant much more survivability in PvE despite all the additional toughness and vitality…that core concept is absurd, soldier’s should propel a character to near-tank proportions.

Anyone who really thinks that isn’t true, I’d love for them to have a go at my guardian that dies in three hits to Mordrem anyway. Aegis, protection and utility defense is the only thing that keeps him alive, certainly not the gear.

Jerus.4350:

So they’r happy with bosses that can be killed before they even appear on the screen (looking at you Spider Queen). But unhappy with the kill rate in fractals/Arah/COE/HoTW (Big LOL on the HOTW one)?

I’d suspect that most of the parties they look at numbers before don’t do ‘pre-load kills’, and a large number of non-optimal groups don’t have the ability to do that.

It’s far more important to keep the content accessible than it is to make it harder for more optimized groups — but that doesn’t mean you don’t tweak the top-end at all.

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

So they’r happy with bosses that can be killed before they even appear on the screen (looking at you Spider Queen). But unhappy with the kill rate in fractals/Arah/COE/HoTW (Big LOL on the HOTW one)?

I’d suspect that most of the parties they look at numbers before don’t do ‘pre-load kills’, and a large number of non-optimal groups don’t have the ability to do that.

It’s far more important to keep the content accessible than it is to make it harder for more optimized groups — but that doesn’t mean you don’t tweak the top-end at all.

The top end doesn’t need tweaking. The bottom end is what’s OP.

Always has been.

Muusic.2967:

maha.7902:

GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where critical chance can approach 100%

every champion in league of legends can hit ~90%, one champion has double critical chance so he can reach cap with a lot less investment in to his build

EQ2 soft cap on critical chance is 1400%

GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where critical damage exceeds 200% of base damage

critical strikes in league do 200% damage unless you buy an item which boosts it to 250% base

EQ2 base damage 839 after modifiers is 2,500,000

GW2 is the only game I’ve seen where a temporary damage buff (Might, in this case) could/can approach the base damage of a max level character (Note: that’s the buff benefit by itself, not factoring in the synergistic benefits of critical chance/damage)

i’m pretty sure like every single game ever has builds where you can wildly exceed the base damage of a character with buffs. In league you can like double, triple, quadruple (etc.) your damage stats through damage buffs by items. baron buff used to give 40 attack damage/40 ability power which is like half of your base attack damage and I can’t remember how much the ability power is because I forgot lol

EQ2 Damage output with temporary buffs can reach up to 35,000,000 damage per second average

maybe you just need to play some more games

Seriously QFE, GW2 is probably one of the lowest dps games i’ve played and the builds are simple.

[/quote]

WTF have they done to that game after i left when Rok was the latest expansion ?
I just saw a while ago that with level 95 characters now had 900.000 HPs .. while i with
level 80 hat 12.000 at that time.

Beldin.5498:

WTF have they done to that game after i left when Rok was the latest expansion ?
I just saw a while ago that with level 95 characters now had 900.000 HPs .. while i with
level 80 hat 12.000 at that time.

Yeah our Main Tank has 2.7mil HP lol.. the numbers are insane now

Throwing down random numbers from other game doen’t help much. You are not saying what is the normal boss hp, how long it takes to kill,etc. Also most other games have a healer and a tank, so the dps is doing only/mostly dps.

You can hit 100 times more but if the boss hp is 1000 times higher it doens’t matter. Pure numbers from other games are vague.

Makes more sense to ask yourself how long does it take for a character of the same lvl of the instance and same gear lvl to kill the boss.

Cuddy.6247:

snip

Yeah, I’m sure these nerfs are geared toward some cheesy builds in PvP like celestial ele and hambow warrior though – not exactly taking PvE as their first consideration. When it comes to PvE, they aren’t helping anyone who dislikes meta builds by nerfing meta builds – core concept design is totally flawed and using Soldier’s doesn’t grant much more survivability in PvE despite all the additional toughness and vitality…that core concept is absurd, soldier’s should propel a character to near-tank proportions.

Anyone who really thinks that isn’t true, I’d love for them to have a go at my guardian that dies in three hits to Mordrem anyway. Aegis, protection and utility defense is the only thing that keeps him alive, certainly not the gear.

The only PVE thing I still do is teq. I have got 4 zerker characters (3 thieves and one necro) and one soldier’s ranger. I’m in the same range with my ranger as with my thieves/necro and my ranger can mess up 10 times and still isn’t downed, wheras I can only mess up with my thieves once. Not sure about the necro. The fight is really boring with my ranger to be honest. He has got some glass canon trait set up, so no extra survivability or anything. The difference here might be that mordrems throw a lot of AOE while the waves at teq are only physical damage, so tankyness helps against physical damage, more health helps against condi damage. The trick is not to mess up which is impossible when it comes to pvp/wvw encounters and that’s where people really have to trade their stats. The changes for pve are minimal.

xDudisx.5914:

Throwing down random numbers from other game doen’t help much. You are not saying what is the normal boss hp, how long it takes to kill,etc. Also most other games have a healer and a tank, so the dps is doing only/mostly dps.

You can hit 100 times more but if the boss hp is 1000 times higher it doens’t matter. Pure numbers from other games are vague.

Makes more sense to ask yourself how long does it take for a character of the same lvl of the instance and same gear lvl to kill the boss.

Wow .. i think with level 50 i had maybe 6.000 HPs .. and it had doubled to 12.000 at
80 .. so that was something like 33% more all 10 levels .. but now … what the hell
has happend ? And can a maxlevel now one-shot raid-bosses from lower levels ?