Guild Wars 2

My biggest issue was after trying WvW I couldn’t handle the clip issues and sometimes the lag.

I do like character progression, but I’m ok with just challenging a leaderboard somehow too.

I’d like to see some PVE content based on PVP gains besides just karma/crafting bonuses et.

CJAncients.6907:

Completely wrong again. You are making up a lot of stuff and assumptions.

First, counter strike is FPS, MMO PvP is not a genre.

Second, you assume you and those of similar opinions have the authority to define what MMORPG is. You assume that you have the authority over the definition of MMORPG, simply because you agree with how MMORPGs have always been. You assume that progression can’t cap in RPGs, when it in fact does if you look at none MMO models.

It’s not an assumption nor having authority over the definition. Only the self-delusioned ones really feel that they are playing a real mmorpg. RPG is in fact a “role-playing” game. If not, then what is it? Like the name itself, you role-play someone who’s not you. You breed and grow someone who is not you. FPS and mmopvp are of the same genre with 2 different expressions. In my country, we call those online multi player games that only emphasize on skills as mmopvp or mmopg. It’s not a “Roleplay” game but “Player” game.

I don’t think there’s any wrong with Pilisilm’s communist analogy. If you insist that GW2 is a mmorpg, then it’s true that GW2 is like a communist country in the planet of mmorpgs. The reason why GW2 gain alot of attention was because “equality” sure sounds like utopia/heaven. If you noticed the among players they attracted are groups of players who always ended up in the short end of the stick in other mmorpgs. It’s a reflection of reality. Many real life people have the first impression that communist country is always better because there’re no classes and everyone is equal. They dislike the idea of someone higher than them and some who earns more than them. (Especially the group of people who doesn’t make an effort for themselves and want to be equal as those hardworking ones.) “Everyone is equal” sure sounds like utopia land. After people stay in communist world for sometimes, they begun to realise that it rewards the lazy ones but punishes the ones who make efforts. The ones who make effort have no further growth than another one who’s lazing around. Through time, no one grow motivation to make effort. In the end, look at North Korea.

Don’t bother with them, Naoko. You can’t change a white knight’s mind. They’re not listening to your arguments. They keep on derailing the topic of boring PvE to “we got 1337 skillz in PvP l2p lol”, because they know PvE is lacking but need to say something to defend ArenaNet their god who can do no wrong.

I may be a hillbilly from Missourah…

…but would someone explain to me why some players feel like they need to work hard in a game to feel satisfied??

I thought these games were supposed to be “play” and not “work.” Am I wrong?

Naoko.7096:

CJAncients.6907:

Completely wrong again. You are making up a lot of stuff and assumptions.

First, counter strike is FPS, MMO PvP is not a genre.

Second, you assume you and those of similar opinions have the authority to define what MMORPG is. You assume that you have the authority over the definition of MMORPG, simply because you agree with how MMORPGs have always been. You assume that progression can’t cap in RPGs, when it in fact does if you look at none MMO models.

It’s not an assumption nor having authority over the definition. Only the self-delusioned ones really feel that they are playing a real mmorpg. RPG is in fact a “role-playing” game. If not, then what is it? Like the name itself, you role-play someone who’s not you. You breed and grow someone who is not you. FPS and mmopvp are of the same genre with 2 different expressions. In my country, we call those online multi player games that only emphasize on skills as mmopvp or mmopg. It’s not a “Roleplay” game but “Player” game.

Naoko, you confuse me with your mmorpg stance. Here is the websters dictionary definition for mmorpg …

Massively Multi-Player Online Role Playing Game.

GW2 is a “massively multi-player” game, it is “online” and try telling those RP players in Tarnished Coast server that they are not role-playing.

You and me both, Obsidian. But people would rather “work hard” in a video game and feel “accomplished” in a video game, than, y’know, actually do that in real life.

GW2’s relaxing entertainment for me. All video games are relaxing entertainment. I sure as hell don’t want to work for it. And I sure as kitten (i typed that one myself ) don’t need a video game to feel ‘accomplished’.

Obsidian.1328:

I may be a hillbilly from Missourah…

…but would someone explain to me why some players feel like they need to work hard in a game to feel satisfied??

I thought these games were supposed to be “play” and not “work.” Am I wrong?

You’re not alone (either as a Show Me resident or being confused at why people act this way).

This topic is seen in nearly every MMO. I get the feeling our profit-driven society has gotten to the point that we can’t even see a leisure activity for the entertainment value and instead see it as an “investment” from which we expect a “return.”

There’s something sickening about the fact that discussions about games have so much in common with hyperbolic political rhetoric such as “OMG COMMUNISTS!” and “those lazy people who want hand-outs and welfare (epics).”

I just don’t understand people who impart onto or derive from a game some basis for personal self-worth. There’s a lot of people who seem to suffer from a “pecking order” mentality in every aspect of life. Even worse when they need some outside arbitrary authority (like a game’s structure or the designers intentions) to declare them the quantifiably “superior” person.

Naoko.7096:

It’s not an assumption nor having authority over the definition. Only the self-delusioned ones really feel that they are playing a real mmorpg. RPG is in fact a "role-playing*" game. If not, then what is it? Like the name itself, you role-play someone who’s not you.* You breed and grow someone who is not you. FPS and mmopvp are of the same genre with 2 different expressions. In my country, we call those online multi player games that only emphasize on skills as mmopvp or mmopg. It’s not a “Roleplay” game but “Player” game.

I will agree with the bolded part. What comes latter, the character progression, is an expectation that grew from years of treadmill MMOs. Traditional single player RPGs for example, have no progression past a certain point. Are you going to tell me games like The Witcher is not a RPG? What about games like Eve Online, or the upcoming World of Darkness MMO, where gear treadmill doesn’t exist?

I am not familiar with where you are from, so I will drop the argument on whether or not MMOPvP is a thing. I still stand by the truth that gear treadmill or progression doesn’t make a game RPG.

Naoko.7096:

I don’t think there’s any wrong with Pilisilm’s communist analogy. If you insist that GW2 is a mmorpg, then it’s true that GW2 is like a communist country in the planet of mmorpgs. The reason why GW2 gain alot of attention was because “equality” sure sounds like utopia/heaven. If you noticed the among players they attracted are groups of players who always ended up in the short end of the stick in other mmorpgs. It’s a reflection of reality. Many real life people have the first impression that communist country is always better because there’re no classes and everyone is equal. They dislike the idea of someone higher than them and some who earns more than them. (Especially the group of people who doesn’t make an effort for themselves and want to be equal as those hardworking ones.) “Everyone is equal” sure sounds like utopia land. After people stay in communist world for sometimes, they begun to realise that it rewards the lazy ones but punishes the ones who make efforts. The ones who make effort have no further growth than another one who’s lazing around. Through time, no one grow motivation to make effort. In the end, look at North Korea.

I will tell you what’s wrong with the communist analogy. First, communism is specifically the equal distribution of wealth. What Pilusilm did was take the equal out of context and then making a leap of logic. That’s why competitive sports kept being brought up, not because we are focused on PvP and disregard PvE, but because it’s a perfect example of “equal” not being communist.

There are other examples too, equal, opportunities, equal rights, etc. There are lots of “equal” in societies that aren’t communist and various aspects of life. Are you going to tell me the many ideas of equality represent communism? The United States promote equality, that everyone is equal, does that mean the United States is communist? Do you not see the leap of logic?

What Pilusilm did was take the idea of “equal wealth distribution” and confusing it with equality. The leap of logic is so big that it’s effortless to spot.

GW2 attracts people, not because they suck in other games. GW2 attracts people because people that are skilled don’t have to put up with gear grind to participate in competition.

Edit: I want to emphasize that I do not dismiss PvE in favor of PvP. I just happen to believe that both styles of gameplay should rely on skill instead of gear. Adding gear progression will only diminish skill.

Dvojce.2486:

So, why doesn’t AN/NC just take out the leveling system then? What is really gained from a level?

Quoting myself, since, I’ve been totally ignored.

Dvojce.2486:

Dvojce.2486:

So, why doesn’t AN/NC just take out the leveling system then? What is really gained from a level?

Quoting myself, since, I’ve been totally ignored.

Nothing really.

One of the feedback from GW1 was players wanted more levels, so that’s what we got.

If I had my way, there wouldn’t be any levels.

Dvojce.2486:

Dvojce.2486:

So, why doesn’t AN/NC just take out the leveling system then? What is really gained from a level?

Quoting myself, since, I’ve been totally ignored.

In this game at least, levels exist for the following characteristics:
1) health pool increase
2) trait/skill point increase
3) gear-stat increases
4) various combat mechanics? (not sure of the specifics on this one)

It’s simply a system to gateway through character development at a steady pace. Think of getting to level 80 as a introduction to your toons’ abilities.

As far as why not change it…that question has been brought up it other posts already. Suffice to say it would be sorta(sarcasm) difficult to rewrite the game code for that at this point.

Dvojce.2486:

Dvojce.2486:

So, why doesn’t AN/NC just take out the leveling system then? What is really gained from a level?

Quoting myself, since, I’ve been totally ignored.

It controls the pace at which the world unfolds. You can only push so far into areas that are at a higher level than you, forcing you to spend more time exploring and unravelling areas at your own level. This creates the feeling that as your abilities grow, your readiness to take on more difficult opponents grows with it, which is a sensible mechanics.

The level scaling, meanwhile, does away with the utterly fatuous and unrealistic eventuality of being able to blow down trolls and barbarians with a strong breath in early areas. Overall, it’s a pretty good reality simulation – as you progress, you’re able to take on a wider variety of enemies and hold your own against stronger enemies, but that doesn’t mean the ones you initially struggled with become a walkover.

CJAncients.6907:

Dvojce.2486:

Dvojce.2486:

So, why doesn’t AN/NC just take out the leveling system then? What is really gained from a level?

Quoting myself, since, I’ve been totally ignored.

Nothing really.

One of the feedback from GW1 was players wanted more levels, so that’s what we got.

If I had my way, there wouldn’t be any levels.

Yes, nothing.
Wouldn’t this debate then stop if they took out levels? The “skilled” players would have a valid argument that it’s just pure skill then. The people who enjoy PVE, that feel burned for not gaining any special 80 content, would then have no ground to argue anything, no?
Maybe the wrong issue is being argued? the issues of levels being in a “pure skill” game?

CJAncients.6907:

Naoko.7096:

It’s not an assumption nor having authority over the definition. Only the self-delusioned ones really feel that they are playing a real mmorpg. RPG is in fact a "role-playing*" game. If not, then what is it? Like the name itself, you role-play someone who’s not you.* You breed and grow someone who is not you. FPS and mmopvp are of the same genre with 2 different expressions. In my country, we call those online multi player games that only emphasize on skills as mmopvp or mmopg. It’s not a “Roleplay” game but “Player” game.

I will agree with the bolded part. What comes latter, the character progression, is an expectation that grew from years of treadmill MMOs. Traditional single player RPGs for example, have no progression past a certain point. Are you going to tell me games like The Witcher is not a RPG? What about games like Eve Online, or the upcoming World of Darkness MMO, where gear treadmill doesn’t exist?

I am not familiar with where you are from, so I will drop the argument on whether or not MMOPvP is a thing. I still stand by the truth that gear treadmill or progression doesn’t make a game RPG.

Naoko.7096:

I don’t think there’s any wrong with Pilisilm’s communist analogy. If you insist that GW2 is a mmorpg, then it’s true that GW2 is like a communist country in the planet of mmorpgs. The reason why GW2 gain alot of attention was because “equality” sure sounds like utopia/heaven. If you noticed the among players they attracted are groups of players who always ended up in the short end of the stick in other mmorpgs. It’s a reflection of reality. Many real life people have the first impression that communist country is always better because there’re no classes and everyone is equal. They dislike the idea of someone higher than them and some who earns more than them. (Especially the group of people who doesn’t make an effort for themselves and want to be equal as those hardworking ones.) “Everyone is equal” sure sounds like utopia land. After people stay in communist world for sometimes, they begun to realise that it rewards the lazy ones but punishes the ones who make efforts. The ones who make effort have no further growth than another one who’s lazing around. Through time, no one grow motivation to make effort. In the end, look at North Korea.

I will tell you what’s wrong with the communist analogy. First, communism is specifically the equal distribution of wealth. What Pilusilm did was take the equal out of context and then making a leap of logic. That’s why competitive sports kept being brought up, not because we are focused on PvP and disregard PvE, but because it’s a perfect example of “equal” not being communist.

There are other examples too, equal, opportunities, equal rights, etc. There are lots of “equal” in societies that aren’t communist and various aspects of life. Are you going to tell me the many ideas of equality represent communism? The United States promote equality, that everyone is equal, does that mean the United States is communist? Do you not see the leap of logic?

What Pilusilm did was take the idea of “equal wealth distribution” and confusing it with equality. The leap of logic is so big that it’s effortless to spot.

GW2 attracts people, not because they suck in other games. GW2 attracts people because people that are skilled don’t have to put up with gear grind to participate in competition.

Edit: I want to emphasize that I do not dismiss PvE in favor of PvP. I just happen to believe that both styles of gameplay should rely on skill instead of gear. Adding gear progression will only diminish skill.

Yeah… skilled people… especially pve… repetitively running from the WP to the actual encounter to die again. Yeah do some small damage to the boss, die, run in again. Rinse and repeat hoping the boss will not regain its HP. Big LOL mate!

Focksbot.6798:

Dvojce.2486:

Dvojce.2486:

So, why doesn’t AN/NC just take out the leveling system then? What is really gained from a level?

Quoting myself, since, I’ve been totally ignored.

It controls the pace at which the world unfolds. You can only push so far into areas that are at a higher level than you, forcing you to spend more time exploring and unravelling areas at your own level. This creates the feeling that as your abilities grow, your readiness to take on more difficult opponents grows with it, which is a sensible mechanics.

The level scaling, meanwhile, does away with the utterly fatuous and unrealistic eventuality of being able to blow down trolls and barbarians with a strong breath in early areas. Overall, it’s a pretty good reality simulation – as you progress, you’re able to take on a wider variety of enemies and hold your own against stronger enemies, but that doesn’t mean the ones you initially struggled with become a walkover.

So, for the people who do not care about roleplay, should really stay away from this game?
Maybe they should do something other than levels then? An unlock system for areas instead of levels so no one is mislead to thinking there is special level content?

Naoko”

Only the self-delusioned ones really feel that they are playing a real mmorpg. RPG is in fact a “role-playing” game. If not, then what is it? Like the name itself, you role-play someone who’s not you. You breed and grow someone who is not you.

Yup, for sure GW2 isn’t a role-playing game. Because I really am an 8 foot tall black viking warrior woman who wields axes and a shortbow.

Naoko”

I don’t think there’s any wrong with Pilisilm’s communist analogy. If you insist that GW2 is a mmorpg, then it’s true that GW2 is like a communist country in the planet of mmorpgs.

Sorry, but I agree with people pointing out the communist comparison is utterly stupid. I see you and others have completely ignored my earlier posts where I break down what a ‘communist’ MMORPG would really look like. Let me try again (although I suspect it will still be ignored since it leaves your argument dead in the sand).

A full-on ‘krazy kommunist’ MMORPG would:

• Prevent people from logging on more than other people, in case they got better at it.
• Handicap people who were good at it to stop them winning more than an average number of games, because being ‘better’ is not allowed.
• Give handouts to people who were awful at it to improve their performance (hmm, kinda like what gear-grinding does!)

GW2 is designed as a genuinely meritocratic MMORPG that negates the faux-progress of a gear grind and places emphasis on the player’s own skill and judgement. This is exactly how real life capitalism is supposed to work – people who are better get better results. People who are not so good don’t get special dispensation just for turning up and grinding.

Dvojce.2486:

So, for the people who do not care about roleplay, should really stay away from this game?
Maybe they should do something other than levels then? An unlock system for areas instead of levels so no one is mislead to thinking there is special level content?

No one is being ‘misled’. It’s your fault if you’re narrow-minded enough to equate levelling up in a deeply unrealistic fashion with proper role-playing. Levelling has always simply been a gating system to control the speed at which the narrative/explorative mode of the game unfolds. ANet have just refined it so as to remove the most patently absurd side effects.

What kind of genuine ‘role-player’ really believes that their character can acquire a sword that does ten or twenty times the damage of another identical-looking one, or double up their armour while still moving at the same pace? It’s got nothing to do with role-playing. If you’re into role-playing, you need to look at all the advancements in the game as a metaphor for your character becoming gradually more experienced and capable, eventually hitting a plateau, just as they would in real life.

Wow this thread has grown, oh well it was merged aswell.

Also wow so many silly analogies in here that are so airheaded.

Comparing martial arts training to getting new gear? Seriously, I mean hell, just wow. Wouldnt that be more in line with practicing the traits, weaponskills, utility and elite skills on a profession? I think it would dear sir.

GW2 communism? Haha! That made my day. Sad excuses from the people that need the gear edge to beat people.

Also as been said before, PvE gear progression is an illusion, you get better gear, but also the mobs of the next content get much harder. Did you believe when you were a child that your uncle could really remove his thumb? Illusions.

The ONLY thing I can see get added to new tiers of gear is possibly magic find, since it doesnt effect your combat ability. It could be added as a 4th bonus stat. But besides that, no, just no.

Focksbot.6798:

Dvojce.2486:

So, for the people who do not care about roleplay, should really stay away from this game?
Maybe they should do something other than levels then? An unlock system for areas instead of levels so no one is mislead to thinking there is special level content?

No one is being ‘misled’. It’s your fault if you’re narrow-minded enough to equate levelling up in a deeply unrealistic fashion with proper role-playing. Levelling has always simply been a gating system to control the speed at which the narrative/explorative mode of the game unfolds. ANet have just refined it so as to remove the most patently absurd side effects.

What kind of genuine ‘role-player’ really believes that their character can acquire a sword that does ten or twenty times the damage of another identical-looking one, or double up their armour while still moving at the same pace? It’s got nothing to do with role-playing. If you’re into role-playing, you need to look at all the advancements in the game as a metaphor for your character becoming gradually more experienced and capable, eventually hitting a plateau, just as they would in real life.

Sigh. As i repeat myself once again since you have selective reading… If you’re not a role player then you should stay away from this game?

Guys, GW2 has 0% chance to get gear-progression based.
Zero percent. None. Void. Null. Non-existent.
It will never happen.
People actually play it for this very reason, they are here because they are tired to run on treadmills.
If you don’t like this at all and want to outgear people you can’t outskill, GW2 is the wrongest game ever for you.

CJAncients.6907:

I will agree with the bolded part. What comes latter, the character progression, is an expectation that grew from years of treadmill MMOs. Traditional single player RPGs for example, have no progression past a certain point. Are you going to tell me games like The Witcher is not a RPG? What about games like Eve Online, or the upcoming World of Darkness MMO, where gear treadmill doesn’t exist?

I am not familiar with where you are from, so I will drop the argument on whether or not MMOPvP is a thing. I still stand by the truth that gear treadmill or progression doesn’t make a game RPG.

I will tell you what’s wrong with the communist analogy. First, communism is specifically the equal distribution of wealth. What Pilusilm did was take the equal out of context and then making a leap of logic. That’s why competitive sports kept being brought up, not because we are focused on PvP and disregard PvE, but because it’s a perfect example of “equal” not being communist.

There are other examples too, equal, opportunities, equal rights, etc. There are lots of “equal” in societies that aren’t communist and various aspects of life. Are you going to tell me the many ideas of equality represent communism? The United States promote equality, that everyone is equal, does that mean the United States is communist? Do you not see the leap of logic?

What Pilusilm did was take the idea of “equal wealth distribution” and confusing it with equality. The leap of logic is so big that it’s effortless to spot.

GW2 attracts people, not because they suck in other games. GW2 attracts people because people that are skilled don’t have to put up with gear grind to participate in competition.

Edit: I want to emphasize that I do not dismiss PvE in favor of PvP. I just happen to believe that both styles of gameplay should rely on skill instead of gear. Adding gear progression will only diminish skill.

First of all, do not mix single-player RPG together with multi-player RPG.

Single-player RPG only consist of you roleplaying and the story.
Multi-player RPG consist of you roleplaying, the story, a moving world and massive people.

Players who play single-player RPG switch games after they finished the story.
Players who play multi-player RPG are dedicated to one mmo for years even after completing the story.

A multi-player RPG that has no individual progression shouldn’t call themselves a mmorpg. Sure, in single-player RPG there’s no progression because the game has ended. Yes, ended. It means “It’s time to switch to another game for my ps3”. That shouldn’t happen to a mmorpg. It’s because mmorpg is a constant world, not a frozen single-player ps3 rpg. Characters should be allowed to grow. Mmorpg is like breeding a character you role-play. Your character “age” (illiterally) the more time and efforts you put into it.

If the game is all about the player and not the avatar, it should be a mmo “player game” and not mmo “role-playing game”.

What makes people like to play mmorpg more than single-player rpg is because your character grows among with other player’s characters. If you play mmorpg with the mentality of how you play a single-player rpg, you wouldn’t know. I can see you playing it that way after you relate mmorpg and single-player rpg together.

Towards your other quote, you’re mixing “communism” and “democracy” together.
You missed the entire point.

In democratic society, at least people are rewarded with efforts.
Making effort for graduation certificate can give you a job. It’s not just cosmetic.
Making effort for promotion can give better pay and rewards. It’s not just cosmetic.
Making effort to get richer, you get richer. It’s not just cosmetic.

There’s progression and rewards for every effort you did.
The -efforts for reward- to get a job, promotions, get richer are what made it fun.
If everything is spoonfed, we can see examples from silver-spoon children who can’t satisfy themselves with anything when they have everything without efforts. That’s why in reality, silver-spoon children can never have fun in life because they have no solid goals.

Ot

True Role-Playing has nothing to do with gear and level gaining, I dare you to go to another game with RP labeled servers and tell people they need to acquire bigger swords in order to pretend they are a Warrior or a Rogue.

Killing the same monster over and over and over again just to get enough currency to acquire better equipment and min/maxing statistics is Power-play, the exact opposite of Rp.

/Ot

This has got to be the best trolling i’ve red on this forum so far, I applaud you for pulling so many into this nonsense, because the same developers who designed the game stated they wont have any:

“grinding through chunks of boring, repetitive content to get to the occasional pockets of fun. With Guild Wars 2, we wanted the entire gameplay experience to be something that players enjoyed, regardless of how much time they could dedicate”

10/10.

I like GW2 because of this very philosophy and if someone wants a grind he’s better go and farm for his legendary, because that’s the only grind he will ever get on this game: cosmetic.

Edit: Grammar. English’s not my main language

Naoko.7096:

Towards your other quote, you’re mixing “communism” and “democracy” together.
You missed the entire point.

In democratic society, at least people are rewarded with efforts.
Making effort for graduation certificate can give you a job. It’s not just cosmetic.
Making effort for promotion can give better pay and rewards. It’s not just cosmetic.
Making effort to get richer, you get richer. It’s not just cosmetic.

There’s progression and rewards for every effort you did.
The -efforts for reward- to get a job, promotions, get richer are what made it fun.
If everything is spoonfed, we can see examples from silver-spoon children who can’t satisfy themselves with anything when they have everything without efforts. That’s why in reality, silver-spoon children can never have fun in life because they have no solid goals.

Funny how your analogy revolves around getting a job, a promotion and increasing your personal income and wealth.

This is a video game designed for leisure entertainment, not measuring your productive capacity in society.

Besides, you describe the idealized version of “democracy” (actually it is capitalism you are referring to, you’re conflating economic models with governmental models). In the real world, you can bust your butt to get the promotion but it ends up going to the guy that was in a fraternity with the boss in college or was part of his high-school clique, etc.

Focksbot.6798:

A full-on ‘krazy kommunist’ MMORPG would:

• Prevent people from logging on more than other people, in case they got better at it.
• Handicap people who were good at it to stop them winning more than an average number of games, because being ‘better’ is not allowed.
• Give handouts to people who were awful at it to improve their performance (hmm, kinda like what gear-grinding does!).

I wonder how your points will make the game a communist mmorpg.
Your arguments are weak because you missed the entire point.

Focksbot.6798:

GW2 is designed as a genuinely meritocratic MMORPG that negates the faux-progress of a gear grind and places emphasis on the player’s own skill and judgement. This is exactly how real life capitalism is supposed to work – people who are better get better results. People who are not so good don’t get special dispensation just for turning up and grinding.

Wrong. Other mmorpgs environments are meritocratic while GW2 is communist.
I explained enough in previous post.

Well, you missed the point again after you said,
“places emphasis on player’s own skill and judgement”.
That’s why I said it can’t be regarded as a mmo RPG.

You role-play an avatar. You role-play as someone who’s totally unrelated to you. Not your skills and reflexes. It has nothing to do with you – the player in real life.

It’s a mmo rpg, not mmo pvp/fps/player game.

SneakyErvin.3056:

Wow this thread has grown, oh well it was merged aswell.

Also as been said before, PvE gear progression is an illusion, you get better gear, but also the mobs of the next content get much harder. Did you believe when you were a child that your uncle could really remove his thumb? Illusions.

Illusion you say? Gearing simply will not let a casual player and nubs get into endgame content. You need to be a good player to get geared. You play harder and harder to finally breath the game. That is the motor that makes you going: look at my brand new shiny gear, sweat and tears bro! It makes you feel you actually achieved something. And this is fine for me.
Lots of people saying hell yeah skill matters in GW2. What skill? Dying repetitively, ruining in and hoping the boss will not regain its HP?
I do not regret my 50 quid and 250 hours spent on the game – not at all. But PVE in GW2 give me not enough ILLUSIONS to continue to play as there is not further goals in the game now. Hell yeah I forgotten about fun! Usually do not play games that do not give me fun. It is like having goals in your life not only willing to live.

Mik Hell.8206:

This has got to be the best trolling i’ve red on this forum so far, I applaud you for pulling so many into this nonsense, because the same developers who designed the game stated they wont have any:

“grinding through chunks of boring, repetitive content to get to the occasional pockets of fun. With Guild Wars 2, we wanted the entire gameplay experience to be something that players enjoyed, regardless of how much time they could dedicate”

10/10.

So anyone stating their opinion that doesn’t match your is a troll? A decent amount of people feel the same way as this “troll” (inb4 yet another attempt at statistical analysis to prove we’re a minority).

For the second part: regardless of how much time they could dedicate is the key phrase. If you don’t have much time to play the game, great, GW2 caters to you! What about people who have the time? I have a job and a social life myself, so I’m not quite “hardcore”, but after 100 hours of gameplay, all that is left to do is A) “Exploring” (which you can do in every MMO ever made) and B ) “grinding through chunks of boring, repetitive content” and get useless legendaries.

Does GW2 take the currency and karma you earn, place it into a collective pool and distribute it equally to all players?

No? Then it isn’t communist.

Does GW2 allow you to distinguish yourself through superior performance?

Yes? Then it isn’t communist.

Does GW2 allow you to display your achievements through visual identifiers of success that communicate you have performed tasks requiring dedicated, long-term effort?

Yes? Then it isn’t communist.

Enough with the hyperbole, already. The only effective difference I see being decried is that you can’t wade through scores of enemies with ease a-la Sauron in the opening scenes of LoTR. Trivializing older content strikes me as more of a punishment than a reward. Stratifying the playerbase so they cannot meaningfully participate in content together because of stat disparities is not helpful for building a larger community. Ingratiating the egos of a small percentage of players doesn’t server any higher purpose, quite frankly.

In this game you are playing the role of an adventurer in a fantasy world, that your personal skill and aptitude at the controls are a factor in the performance of your character does not invalidate that it is still an RPG.

That’s without even going into the issue of taking an excessively literal reading of what is basically a very loose genre descriptor.

Kerri Knight.3168:

Funny how your analogy revolves around getting a job, a promotion and increasing your personal income and wealth.

This is a video game designed for leisure entertainment, not measuring your productive capacity in society.

Did you read the posts or even make an effort to read the lines?
What I spoke of about “getting a job/promotion/increasing wealth income” are just EXAMPLES to relate how progression actually is fun and vital in a constant virtual world with massive people like in mmorpgs.

Naoko.7096:

Kerri Knight.3168:

Funny how your analogy revolves around getting a job, a promotion and increasing your personal income and wealth.

This is a video game designed for leisure entertainment, not measuring your productive capacity in society.

Did you read the posts or even make an effort to read the lines?
What I spoke of about “getting a job/promotion/increasing wealth income” are just EXAMPLES to relate how progression actually is fun and vital in a constant virtual world with massive people like in mmorpgs.

It’s fun to you.

It may even be vital to you.

But please don’t think that you speak for everyone, a quick glance at this thread shows that you do not.

Focksbot.6798:

Calling you out on this – I don’t believe for one minute those ‘insane’ dungeons required ‘perfect teamwork’. In these games, all party leaders want is people with a particular top tier set of gear to repeat the same simple task again and again ad infinitum, no matter the encounter, because they’ve worked out that’s the easiest way through. Calling it ‘teamwork’ because one of you had to keep jamming heal spells for four hours while another person absorbed all the damage for four hours is a bit self-glorifying.

nope. what ive played is quite a lot more complicated then that, and is a semi recent and popular game. you shouldn’t comment on things you don’t even know about.

lacrimstein.5603:

Mik Hell.8206:

This has got to be the best trolling i’ve red on this forum so far, I applaud you for pulling so many into this nonsense, because the same developers who designed the game stated they wont have any:

“grinding through chunks of boring, repetitive content to get to the occasional pockets of fun. With Guild Wars 2, we wanted the entire gameplay experience to be something that players enjoyed, regardless of how much time they could dedicate”

10/10.

So anyone stating their opinion that doesn’t match your is a troll? A decent amount of people feel the same way as this “troll” (inb4 yet another attempt at statistical analysis to prove we’re a minority).

For the second part: regardless of how much time they could dedicate is the key phrase. If you don’t have much time to play the game, great, GW2 caters to you! What about people who have the time? I have a job and a social life myself, but after 100 hours of gameplay, all that is left to do is A) “Exploring” (which you can do in every MMO ever made) and B ) “grinding through chunks of boring, repetitive content” and get useless legendaries.

No, opinions are fine, insisting on having a grind on a game designed to not have one is trolling.

Would you shout to a wall in order to move it?

No, because being unmovable is it’s nature, just like GW2’s nature is grindless by design.

Your freedom ends where mine begins: if you get an advantage because you have more time to play then i have, then my right to be treated equally regardless of how much time i can dedicate is not respected.

That’s why grinds in this game are and will allways be cosmetics.

Edit: and that’s why there’s not much to argue too, you can pull out all the RPs, progression is needed you want, but this game was designed and advertised to be grindless.

If you want an advantage out of your playtime then face the fact you chose the wrong game.

Naoko.7096:

Kerri Knight.3168:

Funny how your analogy revolves around getting a job, a promotion and increasing your personal income and wealth.

This is a video game designed for leisure entertainment, not measuring your productive capacity in society.

Did you read the posts or even make an effort to read the lines?
What I spoke of about “getting a job/promotion/increasing wealth income” are just EXAMPLES to relate how progression actually is fun and vital in a constant virtual world with massive people like in mmorpgs.

“Examples to relate” Yes, that would basically be an…analogy. That’s exactly what I said.

My point was that your go-to examples all compare to a system of labor for income needed to cover our costs of living.

Not exactly a paradigm most people are looking for in their leisure entertainment.

One of the biggest uses of these games is escapism. It would quite defeat the entire purpose of escaping the wage-slave model of the world we live in to recreate the exact same system in your relaxing hobby.

Jestunhi.7429:

Naoko.7096:

Kerri Knight.3168:

Funny how your analogy revolves around getting a job, a promotion and increasing your personal income and wealth.

This is a video game designed for leisure entertainment, not measuring your productive capacity in society.

Did you read the posts or even make an effort to read the lines?
What I spoke of about “getting a job/promotion/increasing wealth income” are just EXAMPLES to relate how progression actually is fun and vital in a constant virtual world with massive people like in mmorpgs.

It’s fun to you.

It may even be vital to you.

But please don’t think that you speak for everyone, a quick glance at this thread shows that you do not.

That is because they’re playing the game with the mentality of a single-player rpg.
That’s why they kept missing the points and brought in arguments that’re really unrelated.

And I never said I spoke for everyone.
We can see there’re two types of people here. A group who knows the true essense of mmorpg. Another group who try to make mmorpg look like a single-player rpg or multi-player fps/pvp/player game.

Naoko.7096:

Jestunhi.7429:

Naoko.7096:

Kerri Knight.3168:

Funny how your analogy revolves around getting a job, a promotion and increasing your personal income and wealth.

This is a video game designed for leisure entertainment, not measuring your productive capacity in society.

Did you read the posts or even make an effort to read the lines?
What I spoke of about “getting a job/promotion/increasing wealth income” are just EXAMPLES to relate how progression actually is fun and vital in a constant virtual world with massive people like in mmorpgs.

It’s fun to you.

It may even be vital to you.

But please don’t think that you speak for everyone, a quick glance at this thread shows that you do not.

That is because they’re playing the game with the mentality of a single-player rpg.
That’s why they kept missing the points and brought in arguments that’re really unrelated.

And I never said I spoke for everyone.
We can see there’re two types of people here. A group who knows the true essense of mmorpg. Another group who try to make mmorpg look like a single-player rpg or multi-player fps/pvp/player game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking_%28fallacy%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

Endless treadmills of progression are not a requirement of the MMORPG genre, discounting the examples which did not feature such a model (including many of the original offerings and the MUDs/MUSHes/MOOs they evolved from) or saying that those who advocate otherwise don’t understand the “true essence” of them is just asserting your subjective preference as objectively superior.

Naoko.7096:

Jestunhi.7429:

Naoko.7096:

Kerri Knight.3168:

Funny how your analogy revolves around getting a job, a promotion and increasing your personal income and wealth.

This is a video game designed for leisure entertainment, not measuring your productive capacity in society.

Did you read the posts or even make an effort to read the lines?
What I spoke of about “getting a job/promotion/increasing wealth income” are just EXAMPLES to relate how progression actually is fun and vital in a constant virtual world with massive people like in mmorpgs.

It’s fun to you.

It may even be vital to you.

But please don’t think that you speak for everyone, a quick glance at this thread shows that you do not.

That is because they’re playing the game with the mentality of a single-player rpg.
That’s why they kept missing the points and brought in arguments that’re really unrelated.

And I never said I spoke for everyone.
We can see there’re two types of people here. A group who knows the true essense of mmorpg. Another group who try to make mmorpg look like a single-player rpg or multi-player fps/pvp/player game.

Precisely. They can see that this game has no longevity, so they fallback to the single-player mindset to hide that flaw from themselves. Then you get all the playthrough time comparisons to Skyrim and other open-world single-player RPGs. The thing is, if GW2 was a single-player game, it wouldn’t be able to hold a candle to a good single-player RPG in terms of story, world complexity, player impact, and character development. A persistent, massively-multiplayer world is the MMORPG genre’s trump card, what drives people to play it. No longevity —> Players leave --> Game dies. Period. Doesn’t matter if its subscription-less or not. Sure, you can come back in several months, but to a mostly empty world, so you’ll be playing the game in basically single-player mode. And then, gasp you’ll turn off the game in a couple of hours because, again, MMOs do not work as single-player games.

This thread is funny

What to classify this game is irrelevant. It really doesn’t matter what this game “IS”? What it “IS NOT” is a gear grind game.

There are other games for that type of game play.

lacrimstein.5603:

Precisely. They can see that this game has no longevity, so they fallback to the single-player mindset to hide that flaw from themselves. Then you get all the playthrough time comparisons to Skyrim and other open-world single-player RPGs. The thing is, if GW2 was a single-player game, it wouldn’t be able to hold a candle to a good single-player RPG in terms of story, world complexity, player impact, and character development. A persistent, massively-multiplayer world is the MMORPG genre’s trump card, what drives people to play it. No longevity —> Players leave --> Game dies. Period. Doesn’t matter if its subscription-less or not. Sure, you can come back in several months, but to a mostly empty world, so you’ll be playing the game in basically single-player mode. And then, gasp you’ll turn off the game in a couple of hours because, again, MMOs do not work as single-player games.

“I’m actually right and everyone who is refuting me with valid points are just in denial.”

Quite ironic when you think about it :9.

If this game doesn’t suit you, that’s fine. Not everyone has to agree with you for you to be correct that your interests and desires are not met by this particular offering. However, that doesn’t mean that this game is not an MMO or that all MMOs by necessity must include a model of endless stat mod progression or power creep to qualify.

@Lacrim – Only people new to MMO’s think of Longevity in such terms. For example not even the developers of Everquest 1 thought their game would last 3-4 years. Even Smedly stated he thought it would die out in those years, yet here they are announcing their 19th expansion. With a whole mess of new things. Guild wars works a little different as they can later in 6-7 years swap GW2 for GW3 and get those MMO hoppers drooling before they leave again.

Just because you want to play “the popular” game to feel good about yourself, doesn’t mean the world has too. MMO’s can live on with smaller player bases than most think. “Game dies” is rather laughable as most of the ones that “die” are in the IP form (SWG / MxO for instance). The others are extremly niche (Auto assault anyone?) Or bugged with little room to do anything w/o huge hype (Tabula Rasa anyone?) Others still live on.

Naoko.7096:

Jestunhi.7429:

Naoko.7096:

Kerri Knight.3168:

Funny how your analogy revolves around getting a job, a promotion and increasing your personal income and wealth.

This is a video game designed for leisure entertainment, not measuring your productive capacity in society.

Did you read the posts or even make an effort to read the lines?
What I spoke of about “getting a job/promotion/increasing wealth income” are just EXAMPLES to relate how progression actually is fun and vital in a constant virtual world with massive people like in mmorpgs.

It’s fun to you.

It may even be vital to you.

But please don’t think that you speak for everyone, a quick glance at this thread shows that you do not.

That is because they’re playing the game with the mentality of a single-player rpg.
That’s why they kept missing the points and brought in arguments that’re really unrelated.

And I never said I spoke for everyone.
We can see there’re two types of people here. A group who knows the true essense of mmorpg. Another group who try to make mmorpg look like a single-player rpg or multi-player fps/pvp/player game.

Even in WoW less than 10% of the players likes to raid. Your statement would mean that less than 10% of the players are the “real” MMORPG players. That’s not true, because MMORPG’s give multipe options to play the game and raiding is just one of them. In fact 100% of the players are real MMORPG players.

Naoko.7096:

We can see there’re two types of people here. A group who knows the true essense of mmorpg. Another group who try to make mmorpg look like a single-player rpg or multi-player fps/pvp/player game.

If having some kind of gear-grind/time-reward mechanic is the essence of an mmorpg…then I’m the king of France!

Seriously, since when did dungeon-style raiding, gear-progression, etc. become the defining characteristic of this genre? Never that’s when. The genre has just been skewed that direction for so long people assume that’s the way it should be.

Mmorpg’s did exist before the turn of the century ya know. And a lot would argue they were the true mmo’s, not the other way around.

And for the record, an rpg is more a state of mind than anything. I reserved one of my characters for solely that reason: turned off the map markers, turned off all chat except local, paid no mind to any group events, and just roamed…fulfilling my storyline that I had drummed up myself(he’s sort of an Ascalonian nationalist—spends a lot of time in Ebonhawke trying to help the Separatists). :P I absolutely roleplayed whether you think I did or not.

Naoko.7096:

Jestunhi.7429:

Naoko.7096:

Kerri Knight.3168:

Funny how your analogy revolves around getting a job, a promotion and increasing your personal income and wealth.

This is a video game designed for leisure entertainment, not measuring your productive capacity in society.

Did you read the posts or even make an effort to read the lines?
What I spoke of about “getting a job/promotion/increasing wealth income” are just EXAMPLES to relate how progression actually is fun and vital in a constant virtual world with massive people like in mmorpgs.

It’s fun to you.

It may even be vital to you.

But please don’t think that you speak for everyone, a quick glance at this thread shows that you do not.

That is because they’re playing the game with the mentality of a single-player rpg.
That’s why they kept missing the points and brought in arguments that’re really unrelated.

And I never said I spoke for everyone.
We can see there’re two types of people here. A group who knows the true essense of mmorpg. Another group who try to make mmorpg look like a single-player rpg or multi-player fps/pvp/player game.

They are playing the game as it was designed to be and how it was advertised.

We’ve known for ages that this isn’t a “grind for leet loot” game. Anyone who does a modicum of research prior to purchasing a game would have known that it’s not that sort of game. It’s the reason that many people purchased it.

The 2 types of people here are as follows:

1. The people who want to play GW2.
2. The people who want to turn GW2 into a generic MMO clone with GW-based lore in the background.

I can’t believe how many people out there think WoW is a Genre and if it doesn’t play just like WoW it must not be a MMO…..LOL

I really hope GW2 paves a path to even greater experimentation with the MMO Genre or even a return to the days before “lobby” worlds with these 10 to 25 man instances were considered massively multiplayer.

“Massively and multiplayer: I thought was about sharing user experiences and adventures. That somehow became carved into let’s kill dragons together and get cool stuff. The social aspect and the option to choose the way you play diminished.” -Calvin Crowner, Ultima Online Producer, Electronic Arts

Kerri Knight.3168:

“Massively and multiplayer: I thought was about sharing user experiences and adventures. That somehow became carved into let’s kill dragons together and get cool stuff. The social aspect and the option to choose the way you play diminished.” -Calvin Crowner, Ultima Online Producer, Electronic Arts

Except UO was a sandbox game, complete with persistent player and guild housing, PKs and looting, and gear(!). SWG, on top of that, had vehicles, both for one and several players. That indeed is choose-the-way-you-play. GW2 doesn’t have any interesting game mechanics like that. Its all about combat & some crafting. It’s basically open-world Diablo, without the gear treadmill.

lacrimstein.5603:

Kerri Knight.3168:

“Massively and multiplayer: I thought was about sharing user experiences and adventures. That somehow became carved into let’s kill dragons together and get cool stuff. The social aspect and the option to choose the way you play diminished.” -Calvin Crowner, Ultima Online Producer, Electronic Arts

Except UO was a sandbox game, complete with persistent player and guild housing, PKs and looting, and gear(!). SWG, on top of that, had vehicles, both for one and several players. That indeed is choose-the-way-you-play. GW2 doesn’t have any interesting game mechanics like that. Its all about combat & some crafting. It’s basically open-world Diablo, without the gear treadmill.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m a major sandbox fan.

I’m just pointing out that not having an endless progression of the kill→loot→repeat variety doesn’t mean it isn’t an MMO.

Kerri Knight.3168:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking_%28fallacy%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
—
“"I’m actually right and everyone who is refuting me with valid points are just in denial."

Quite ironic when you think about it :9.

In my eyes, that’s what you’re doing. You believe you’re right and pushes your “ideals” to another who don’t feel the same. I never did so. I only share the elements of “rpg” which many people feel that are lacking in gw2. It’s a fact since many players had felt this way. Look around this forum, ign webby and many other places, so much evidences of many players who feel the same way about gw2. You can’t deny that.

Yes, your argumental points are valid, but they’re only valid if I talked about those single-player rpg, multi-player pvp or mmopvp/fps. That’s why I said your arguments and refutes are weak if you used it towards mmorpg.

I understand that gw2 tries hard to make it so different than mmorpgs of the past, I appreciate the differences. But I feel it didn’t work out so well. It doesn’t feel like a mmorpg or what they claimed to be “revolutionised mmorpg”. It takes away some vital points of what makes a mmorpg. If they want to take away those points (gear progression/individual growth) from mmorpg, they should replaced it with something of equavalent or more value. They think only “grind for cosmetics gears” makes a good end-game, but every other mmos already have that. Where’s the other half in gw2? Yes, you can take it away but replace it with something else to fill that hole. Something that makes players feel progressed from extra efforts. Then, I can agree that it’s a revolutionised mmorpg.

Dvojce.2486:

Focksbot.6798:

Dvojce.2486:

So, for the people who do not care about roleplay, should really stay away from this game?
Maybe they should do something other than levels then? An unlock system for areas instead of levels so no one is mislead to thinking there is special level content?

No one is being ‘misled’. It’s your fault if you’re narrow-minded enough to equate levelling up in a deeply unrealistic fashion with proper role-playing. Levelling has always simply been a gating system to control the speed at which the narrative/explorative mode of the game unfolds. ANet have just refined it so as to remove the most patently absurd side effects.

What kind of genuine ‘role-player’ really believes that their character can acquire a sword that does ten or twenty times the damage of another identical-looking one, or double up their armour while still moving at the same pace? It’s got nothing to do with role-playing. If you’re into role-playing, you need to look at all the advancements in the game as a metaphor for your character becoming gradually more experienced and capable, eventually hitting a plateau, just as they would in real life.

Sigh. As i repeat myself once again since you have selective reading… If you’re not a role player then you should stay away from this game?

Maybe it would help if that sentence made sense. Why is there a question mark at the end when it’s not phrased as a question? Are you asking: “Should role players stay away from this game?” If so, the answer is no, they should not, and I have no idea why you would suggest such a thing, except that you seem to have some perverse idea that role playing = gear grinding.

Fanboys will defend gw2 to death regardless of its flaws. What is forcing you to get good gear and do raids/dungeons..? Am I going to stand behind you and break your fingers if you don’t get a certain piece of gear and run a certain dungeon? You can roleplay all you want but what about the people who actually want to get somewhere in this game?
This isn’t farmville but it seems to be turning into one with the idea of having houses. What is there to do at level 80? Besides PvP, craft,explore. Nothing.
EDIT: socializing doesn’t count either cause that’s a perk of an mmo not just this specific one. Large guilds feel like friends lists on Facebook, you don’t know or talk to half the people.

Naoko.7096:

Towards your other quote, you’re mixing “communism” and “democracy” together.
You missed the entire point.

In democratic society, at least people are rewarded with efforts.
Making effort for graduation certificate can give you a job. It’s not just cosmetic.
Making effort for promotion can give better pay and rewards. It’s not just cosmetic.
Making effort to get richer, you get richer. It’s not just cosmetic.

There’s progression and rewards for every effort you did.
The -efforts for reward- to get a job, promotions, get richer are what made it fun.
If everything is spoonfed, we can see examples from silver-spoon children who can’t satisfy themselves with anything when they have everything without efforts. That’s why in reality, silver-spoon children can never have fun in life because they have no solid goals.

I’m getting really impatient with this moronic inability to understand the way different systems work.

Democratic societies do not reward people for effort. They reward people for doing something well, or at least better than other people. We manifestly do not live in a society where everyone gets up, jogs on the spot for eight hours and then gets given an extension to their house, but if they jog for nine hours they get a car as well. Because that would be stupid. In much the same way as it is stupid in other MMOs.

You get a graduation certificate for being GOOD at something.
You get a promotion for being GOOD at your job.
You get rich if you are GOOD at swindling/hoarding/doing business.
You triumph more easily in Guild Wars 2 if you are GOOD at it.

Pilusilm.5682:

Fanboys…

Stopped reading right here.