Guild Wars 2

Pandemoniac.4739:

Einlanzer.1627:

Nay, it’s an average so everyone always contributes. A party with 5 people running 50% MF has a party MF of 50%. A party of 5 with only 1 person running 50% has a party MF of 10% but better overall combat potency.

If you use an average, then won’t you run into the opposite problem of folks with no MF getting kicked because they’re bringing the group down?

Group sharing of MF from gear is a bad idea. Take the MF off the gear and make it a stacking buff you earn by killing challenging mobs. The faster you can take on challenging content, the quicker you reach the MF cap, and the more mobs you kill with max MF. Dying resets your personal buff stack back to zero. No need to sacrifice effectiveness or have multiple sets of gear. Good teams/players get rewarded, and you don’t need to farm gold/laurels/karma/whatever to buy a decent set of MF gear.

I wouldn’t think so, because without MF you are more potent in combat. It’s a tradeoff. You’d run into a few elitist pricks I’m sure, but I don’t think it’d be any more prevalent than berserker gear for sure.

I for one think it’s an interesting choice and I’d hate to see it removed.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Fixing-Magic-Find-Infusions/first#post1976742

Kain Francois.4328:

After contemplating a long time, I came up with a wonderful idea for magic find and ascended gear!

What if, one we have a full set of Ascended Gear for armor and weapons, Magic Find and similar stats (karma-booster, gold-find, etc…) are segregated into infusions?

What infusions allow you do to do is split “statistical”-boosts from “utility”-boosts. So rather than choosing between Magic Find and Berserker armor, you choose between a Magic Find and Gold Find infusion, and we could use whatever stats we want?

We could use our favorite heaing power gear for example, and decide whether we play open world or dungeons, to use magic find or gold find.

In short: abolish magic find from armor, and give us a Utility infusion slot instead.

Kain Francois.4328:

-snip-

nah, you don’t get the tradeoff: power vs. better loot. The devs want to give people the choice to become weaker and in return get better loot. I’d say: give magicfind a group-buff which doesn’t work on yourself. So the power in a group stays the same, but you are weaker nontheless + get better loot.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

Kain Francois.4328:

-snip-

nah, you don’t get the tradeoff: power vs. better loot. The devs want to give people the choice to become weaker and in return get better loot. I’d say: give magicfind a group-buff which doesn’t work on yourself. So the power in a group stays the same, but you are weaker nontheless + get better loot.

Why do we need a tradeoff in the first place? It doesn’t do anything significant in zergplay. But it does prevent us from using builds we enjoy in the open world.

Using anything but magic find in open world is kinda pointless.

“Really any stat you choose to give them would make them more combat effective than having MF in that slot, so they really wouldn’t have much room to complain.”

^This statement assumes way too much knowledge of the player base, it’s not all about combat for some.

You missed the point I was making. It was within the context of MF being removed as a “chase” stat. In the system I was outlining, it would be impossible to have more MF than anyone else with the same level of gear, using the same level of food. Someone in a full set of Exotic would have more MF than someone in full rare, or in lower level gear, but every set of gear would have the same MF as any other gear in that Tier, so essentially any set of level 80 exotic Zerker gear would offer the same MF boost as any set of Knight gear, or Explorer gear. The bonus MF that Explorer gear currently offers would be removed, and replaced with whatever alternate stat the devs think is appropriate.

If you’re wearing full Explorer gear now, you’d get the same Power you do now, the same Precision you do now, and yes, the same MF you get now, you’d just also get 101 points of some other stat, or the equivalent bonus. It would be a pure buff, no nerf whatsoever.

Aren’t you leeching off people who has more useful combat stats that you don’t have?

Yes. Any points you’ve put into MF mean that you’re making the content harder for everyone else in your group than if you’d put those points into a state that makes you more combat effective. If the group’s fine with that, then fine, but there’s no reason why they should have to be. You ARE dragging them down on purpose for your own selfish benefit.

Some thoughts about different ideas (mostly already mentioned).

1. Sharing MF with your group in dungeons, giving everyone average of your group.
+ MF would help group to get better items, so it wouldn’t be useless in dungeons anymore
- MF armors and weapons give so less MF, that people using them still wouldn’t be very useful to group. It would be a lot more effective if everyone used non-MF items with MF runes and MF food (high MF for smallish stat loss), so it could become common that people would want only people with berserker gear and MF runes to their groups

2. Adding MF to all items as additional stat (+3% from exotics). Converting all traveler items in game to rampager and all explorer items to berserker.
+ People who had MF gear wouldn’t lose their MF (to avoid complaining from players), would still have similar stats in their gear as before (full offensive) and no one would lack combat effectiveness, because of MF anymore (no hate towards MF users)
- If everyone with exotics had high MF, I don’t know what it would do to economy of game (personally wouldn’t mind if things got even cheaper/easier to get than now)
- I’m not sure what they should do to MF runes and sigils then (adding +5% MF to every superior rune and redo stats of current MF runes?)

3. (Probably terrible idea) Button to switch between “MF mode” and “normal mode”. MF mode would change primary stats of your items to MF. Traveler and explorer items would have another primary stats in “normal mode” instead of MF. MF mode wouldn’t be usable in dungeons.
+ People could keep their MF items and couldn’t “leech” in dungeons anymore
- Would mess up builds in MF mode, as you would lose your primary stats
- Runes and sigils problem again

Sorry for my bad english and probably confusing message, writing after sleepless night and this is my first post here.

Am I the only one who thinks Mirta is right from the star? Well, in most of the things at least. The IQ example isn´t good so aren´t some other things.

Mirta makes some valid points and you shoot him/her (??) down saying its nonsense. You all have some valid points, you just fail to come up with a compromise and actually make a progress and solve the issue.

We all have an opinion and the opinion in subjective and selfish because it is based on our own experience and our own perceiving of the world.

We have our own playstyles and we all have equal right to choose/find this style.

MF gear does not benefit the party that is true. BUT gear itself doesn´t make you a better player. Who says that the guy isn´t beneficial to the party. If he stays alive, heal others, deal damage, revive, etc. than he is usefull much more than zerkers that go down much faster, or thieves and elementalists. Im not saying that either of these classes are worse or better than the rest of em. It is a choice of the player. And it is YOU not the gear that makes you good at the game and/or anything else.

Gear shouldn´t matter. And if you are encouraging people not to take MF geared guy with you than you are discriminating this player, his/her style therefore you are discriminating him/her as a unique person that he/she is not only in game.

See, the goal is to complete the dungeon with as least deaths as possible and get the rewards. Why should it matter what gear you use for it? You accomplish this goal and you are saying that it is not good enaugh because it wasn´t according to what you wanted. This guy doesn´t play the way I want him/her to play the game he/she has to go. Thats a BS mister Han man.

You shouldn´t be averaging MF into the party. If so than you should average all other stats as well. How does one person benefit from other person´s vitality or toughness or any other stat? THEY DON´T. Because the warrior in my party has 28k of vitality doesn´t help me a bit nor does it helps any othe party member, it helps him to survive more, not anyone else. If I run out of endurance and I don´t have any blocks and the boss decides to use his skill on me that takes me down with my 20k of HP your vitality is useless to me. And if he/she has so many HP than he/she sacrifices damage for it. It´s something for something. And btw, how does it sound that from the 28k of HP you are used to you now have 20k thanks to averaging?

I woud take a rare geared MF guy who knows how to play anytime over a guy with full exotic set of whatever, who is just an ancor for the party.

Should MF be changed? Maybe, maybe not. I don´t use it. Would I like to have MF in case it becomes a free bonus to my stats not sacrificing anything? Hell yeah!

The whole time you are arguing that stats are more important than player. It is not true…Player>stats

And of course, as always, nothing is 100%. The examples shown in my post doesn´t apply to everything. It is just an opinion. And you shouldn´t really apply such statements into real life as life is much more complex than a game.

Mirta.5029:

except that in game all variables are not equal and players are not judged on numbers, therefore to argue that one should be discriminated against because of their not perfect numbers on their gear no matter how good the player itself is just elitist.

They are not discriminated against because of their “not so perfect numbers”. They are being discriminated against because of their selfish attitude in a cooperative game.

Pointy.9308:

MF gear does not benefit the party that is true.

This is the most important truth. If something is not benefiting the party but INSTEAD benefits the user more, it shouldnt’ be used in a party environment.

Gear shouldn´t matter. And if you are encouraging people not to take MF geared guy with you than you are discriminating this player, his/her style therefore you are discriminating him/her as a unique person that he/she is not only in game.

No you got it all wrong. The MF geared guy had a perfect choice NOT to use MF gear so as not to slow down the group and gain increased benefits for offering less to the party. While it’s true that a full MF gear player might offer more than others, that still doesn’t excuse him the least bit for choosing the selfish gear over more useful gear.

See, the goal is to complete the dungeon with as least deaths as possible and get the rewards. Why should it matter what gear you use for it? You accomplish this goal and you are saying that it is not good enaugh because it wasn´t according to what you wanted. This guy doesn´t play the way I want him/her to play the game he/she has to go. Thats a BS mister Han man.

You got it all wrong again. The one that is causing the trouble is the MF user, he is the one that made the choice to use selfish gear. He is the one that doesn’t allow the others to play the way they want, why can’t you see it the other way too?

You shouldn´t be averaging MF into the party. If so than you should average all other stats as well.

No average, just remove MF from dungeons, problems solved.

I woud take a rare geared MF guy who knows how to play anytime over a guy with full exotic set of whatever, who is just an ancor for the party.

That’s the true elitist, descriminating players over what kind of skill they have. I thought we don’t want elitisism?

There is such a thing called coordinated group play in in GW2. While the player running MF gear might be perfectly fine with dying more often and being weaker in general, the group is hurt as a whole. This is why I reject MF as a personal choice in coordinated PvE.

What I would like, however, is MF as a type of challenge the group accepts as a group. Imagine an NPC who makes the group the following offer. Everybody loses 10% of stats, gains 10%MF (or whatever works out to be balanced). Much like groups can agree on which path to take before running a dungeon, they could agree how far to crank up the settings. -50%/+100%, anyone?

MF is never frowned upon in the open world, because players do not have to act as a group there and can respect personal choices. Which is not ok, in a setting, i.e. dungeons, where dependencies are the norm.

Equipment based MF really needs to be removed from dungeons. But the idea of trading power for MF is ok, even in a team setting. but it has to be a team decision. Until that day, the team decision can be kicking players.

FourthVariety.5463:

What I would like, however, is MF as a type of challenge the group accepts as a group. Imagine an NPC who makes the group the following offer. Everybody loses 10% of stats, gains 10%MF (or whatever works out to be balanced). Much like groups can agree on which path to take before running a dungeon, they could agree how far to crank up the settings. -50%/+100%, anyone?

+1, love the idea. though it would clash with open world MF currently, as there it pretty much has to be a gear-stat.

One key point to discussion : all over the topics it is Rampager/Berserker only compared with Explorer one. This is only two kind of armors? If you want to play elitist create LFG – Berserker only group, gear checked. I really like to play with Soldier or Valkyrie armor. Am I a bad guy? Do I comply with your gamestyle? One of you was right – person >>>> gear. Are you playing MF in sacrifice of Vitality? Can you survive dodging? You are welcome in any PUG I play with. BTW – Explorer goes with power so actually you are doing max damage you can

Dungeons and fractals are also for fun. Not for speed run only. Try sometimes to kill all in Maw fractal – then you will see that MF shine. For boss? No – but still you can switch your gear or just help in any way you can.

I do not like idea of sharing MF with a group. I also do not like to see it removed just as is – due to question what to do with existing items. Plenty of runes, sigils will be affected too. It is not a small change. Please take into account that there is a group of players not farming which do not have excessive amount of gold to create exotics as they want. And MF stat materials (and runes) are fairly cheap (especially in comparison with Berserker)

Oranisagu.3706:

FourthVariety.5463:

What I would like, however, is MF as a type of challenge the group accepts as a group. Imagine an NPC who makes the group the following offer. Everybody loses 10% of stats, gains 10%MF (or whatever works out to be balanced). Much like groups can agree on which path to take before running a dungeon, they could agree how far to crank up the settings. -50%/+100%, anyone?

+1, love the idea. though it would clash with open world MF currently, as there it pretty much has to be a gear-stat.

I have an idea for open world: Allow players to choose to get their level downscaled (or downscaled further) for better drops.

Szamsziel.5627:

One key point to discussion : all over the topics it is Rampager/Berserker only compared with Explorer one. This is only two kind of armors? If you want to play elitist create LFG – Berserker only group, gear checked. I really like to play with Soldier or Valkyrie armor. Am I a bad guy? Do I comply with your gamestyle? One of you was right – person >>>> gear. Are you playing MF in sacrifice of Vitality? Can you survive dodging? You are welcome in any PUG I play with. BTW – Explorer goes with power so actually you are doing max damage you can

The reason everyone brings up Rampager’s and Berserker’s is that they are in no conceivable way worse in a fight than Explorer’s. This doesn’t mean other stat combinations aren’t of value, it means that Explorer’s is of no value compared to Rampager’s/Berserker’s.
And no, you’re not doing the max damage you can, as Power on Explorer’s is a minor stat, compared to Berserker’s which has it as the major stat, and it lacks Crit Damage, which scales wonderfully with the precision the gear gives you.

Gear shouldn´t matter. And if you are encouraging people not to take MF geared guy with you than you are discriminating this player, his/her style therefore you are discriminating him/her as a unique person that he/she is not only in game.

No you got it all wrong. The MF geared guy had a perfect choice NOT to use MF gear so as not to slow down the group and gain increased benefits for offering less to the party. While it’s true that a full MF gear player might offer more than others, that still doesn’t excuse him the least bit for choosing the selfish gear over more useful gear.

YES indeed he has the CHOICE to use other gear than MF. The CHOICE. Im simply trying to say that even in party we should be unique. There are choices in stats to suit different people and their needs/wants. And MF guy is not necesarily slowing down anyone as we agreed on. So why should all the MF guys be discriminated if they can get the job done equally or even better than players with other stats? Please see that the point of my statement is that MF is a choice as much as is taking power and that having MF doesn´t necesarily slow down the party. Im not saying it is not selfish, it is but people should be recognized for their actions rather than the loot they CAN get and/or the stats they use. If a guy is able to save the party from wiping and complete the dungeon than why not to let him have his MF? Didn´t he prove that he is beneficial to the party?

See, the goal is to complete the dungeon with as least deaths as possible and get the rewards. Why should it matter what gear you use for it? You accomplish this goal and you are saying that it is not good enaugh because it wasn´t according to what you wanted. This guy doesn´t play the way I want him/her to play the game he/she has to go. Thats a BS mister Han man.

You got it all wrong again. The one that is causing the trouble is the MF user, he is the one that made the choice to use selfish gear. He is the one that doesn’t allow the others to play the way they want, why can’t you see it the other way too?

How come it is the MF guys who causes the trouble? He doesn´t kitten about zerkers or val/knight guys who doesn´t have damage. He doesn´t ask others to link their gear. He plays with what he has and don´t mind if others have different stats. He is in the party, he kills mobs, heals you so where is the problem? …Actually, most people doesn´t care what stats people use so I do not know why are we arguing about it.

I woud take a rare geared MF guy who knows how to play anytime over a guy with full exotic set of whatever, who is just an ancor for the party.

That’s the true elitist, descriminating players over what kind of skill they have. I thought we don’t want elitisism?

It is just a statement I made because of an arguments in the topic. To show that there is more to a player than just stats. As I do not care what stats or gear they use.

And that is the point – Players do need stats but stats are not more than skill of the player. Also not everyone needs the same stats as everyone else to suit his playstyle. If it was the other way around than the game would have one class one weapon one set of stats and we all would have the same build.

XYZ is not a problem. The people creates the problem by saying they do not like it. At which point somebody tries to defend XYZ. BAM people arguing and not doing anything. Not everyone of course.

Einlanzer.1627:

Pandemoniac.4739:

If you use an average, then won’t you run into the opposite problem of folks with no MF getting kicked because they’re bringing the group down?

I wouldn’t think so, because without MF you are more potent in combat. It’s a tradeoff. You’d run into a few elitist pricks I’m sure, but I don’t think it’d be any more prevalent than berserker gear for sure.

I for one think it’s an interesting choice and I’d hate to see it removed.

So do you think that one person without MF is “potent” enough to make up for a 50% loss in MF for 4 other people? We’re not playing the same game if you think gear has that big of an effect. The group I play with can carry one player through a dungeon, but there is no way I’m going to have my MF cut in half for one other player who claims to be so uber that they can generate enough drops to make up for a 50% loss of MF for 4 other decent players. And I’m not elitist at all, that’s just not fair.

Averaging is not the best way to get what you’re after. That will just encourage folks to look for players with the same amount of MF to be more efficient. At least suggest using the median instead of the mean.

Critical mostly depends on your pseudo-role in GW (support does not need so much power). If your precision is already low because your traits build is different – it will not help you a lot. The same for other attibutes – having critical damage 40% vs 60% is not a big deal.

But this way we are going into even more restrictive environments. Soon not only Berseker will be required but also Divinity rules (in order to maximize damage output). It’s not the way it should be.

My POI: Guild Wars PvE is spread among 3 categories:
Solo play : bad build or MF is your own business.
Guild Play : You know your group and can decide if your team going to play with MF gear or not.
Pug play : You may play with newbies, noobs, elitists, not perfect players, genius players and so on. In that case you need to cope with MF gear in fractals/dungeons, healer builds on Thief or even players with only Minor traits activated (yes that happen). As in real life – all kinds of freaks shown up. And… it’s fun. Still you can create a party and enforce your own rules. Kicking if someone does not apply to them. Your decision.

You want to disable MF – why so? Because it’s selfish – so be it. You may play with Guardian which does use his Virtues only for himself. It happens. So what? It’s just a game. Someone want to run naked in dungeon – for me it’s ok. I’ll just leave the party if not find fun with that. No harm done, no offence taken.

If you want 100% perfect group – create your own list of players you want to play with.

Pandemoniac.4739:

Einlanzer.1627:

Pandemoniac.4739:

If you use an average, then won’t you run into the opposite problem of folks with no MF getting kicked because they’re bringing the group down?

I wouldn’t think so, because without MF you are more potent in combat. It’s a tradeoff. You’d run into a few elitist pricks I’m sure, but I don’t think it’d be any more prevalent than berserker gear for sure.

I for one think it’s an interesting choice and I’d hate to see it removed.

So do you think that one person without MF is “potent” enough to make up for a 50% loss in MF for 4 other people? We’re not playing the same game if you think gear has that big of an effect. The group I play with can carry one player through a dungeon, but there is no way I’m going to have my MF cut in half for one other player who claims to be so uber that they can generate enough drops to make up for a 50% loss of MF for 4 other decent players. And I’m not elitist at all, that’s just not fair.

Averaging is not the best way to get what you’re after. That will just encourage folks to look for players with the same amount of MF to be more efficient. At least suggest using the median instead of the mean.

Do you people seriously not understand how averages work? I feel like that’s why you keep arguing so staunchly. Using the median instead of the mean makes no sense at all.

There’s no way one player in a group of 5 could cut your MF in half. If 4 people have 100% MF and 1 person has 0%, then the group’s effective MF would be 80%. In a group of 5, 20% is the maximum amount that any one player can affect your MF.

This conversation continues to astonish me. I’m really not trying to be haughty here – I just know what I’m talking about. Spreading MF to a group as an average is the best way to go. It’s quick, it’s fair, it’s balanced, and it doesn’t involve any massive overhauls to current itemization, etc. So far every argument put forth against it is rooted in either misconception or bad logic.

The MF elitism argument is the only one that holds even a shred of merit, and I don’t believe it’ll be any bigger a problem than current gear elitism, which there’s really no way to get rid of totally.

Wanna bet?
1 player has 50%. 1 has 40%, 1 has 30% and one have 5%. The last one have x%. If x=0 then sum is 50+40+30+5 = 125. So on average 125/5 = 25%. 1st player before share was 50%, after is 25%. – cut in half

Szamsziel.5627:

Wanna bet?
1 player has 50%. 1 has 40%, 1 has 30% and one have 5%. The last one have x%. If x=0 then sum is 50+40+30+5 = 125. So on average 125/5 = 25%. 1st player before share was 50%, after is 25%. – cut in half

So Einlanzer is perfectly right : there’s no way a single player in the group caused you to lose half your MF. It took the concerted effort of 4 players out of 5 to do it.

TBH, you can do it with 3 players only even.

Szamsziel.5627:

Wanna bet?
1 player has 50%. 1 has 40%, 1 has 30% and one have 5%. The last one have x%. If x=0 then sum is 50+40+30+5 = 125. So on average 125/5 = 25%. 1st player before share was 50%, after is 25%. – cut in half

That’s not the same thing he was saying. He was saying that the party’s MF would be cut by 50% for one person not wearing MF, which isn’t mathematically possible.

The situation above is fair because the person with more MF is also benefiting from the superior combat stats of the other players with less MF and it equalizes fairly well.

Szamsziel.5627:

Wanna bet?
1 player has 50%. 1 has 40%, 1 has 30% and one have 5%. The last one have x%. If x=0 then sum is 50+40+30+5 = 125. So on average 125/5 = 25%. 1st player before share was 50%, after is 25%. – cut in half

I said “cut in half” as an example, not as a calculation of every possible team make up, and I was talking about my personal MF not the team’s MF.

Let’s look at the median versus average
50%, 40%, 30%, 5%, 0% -> median is 30%, average is 25%
50%, 30%, 30%, 30%, 0% -> median is 30%, average is 28%
50%, 10%, 10%, 10%, 10% -> median is 10%, average is 18%
50%, 50%, 50%, 50%, 0% -> median is 50%, average is 40%

If you use the average, players with no MF drag down the player(s) with a lot of MF. You can not convince me that one player without MF on their gear can make up for 10% of 4 other players. Folks without MF will just be taking advantage of folks with a lot of MF.

Drops are not shared among the team, so MF should not be shared among the team. If someone on your PUG isn’t pulling their weight for whatever reason, replace them after the run. Most of the time, the reason I didn’t want to be on a team with folks that has absolutely nothing to do with their gear or how much MF is on it.

Actually – the only way to make it fair it would be to have the same drops for all. No RNG. If anyone get Lodestone – every player in team get Lodestone also. So I’d rather would suggest to have highest MF for the group. And MF geared is also contributing by increasing chances for items. Sharing (average) seems to be not fair – For example explorer set power is 2/3 of Berserker power. So only 2/3 of MF should be put into shared pool (if you want to have even). Fair <> even.

Edit : Pandemoniac quote: " If someone on your PUG isn’t pulling their weight for whatever reason, replace them after the run. Most of the time, the reason I didn’t want to be on a team with folks that has absolutely nothing to do with their gear or how much MF is on it." How can I add +500 kudos for that statement!

Szamsziel.5627:

Actually – the only way to make it fair it would be to have the same drops for all. No RNG. If anyone get Lodestone – every player in team get Lodestone also. So I’d rather would suggest to have highest MF for the group. And MF geared is also contributing by increasing chances for items. Sharing (average) seems to be not fair – For example explorer set power is 2/3 of Berserker power. So only 2/3 of MF should be put into shared pool (if you want to have even). Fair <> even.

Edit : Pandemoniac quote: " If someone on your PUG isn’t pulling their weight for whatever reason, replace them after the run. Most of the time, the reason I didn’t want to be on a team with folks that has absolutely nothing to do with their gear or how much MF is on it." How can I add +500 kudos for that statement!

No, that would not fix the problem. You’d only benefit from one person’s MF score and anyone else wearing it would be just as detrimental to the group as they are currently. I frankly can’t even follow the logic in your first paragraph.

I’m just shaking my head at this conversation at this point. It’s like the most obvious solution ever and people just keep dancing in circles around it in a seemingly desperate attempt to avoid admitting they were wrong.

Pandemoniac.4739:

Szamsziel.5627:

Wanna bet?
1 player has 50%. 1 has 40%, 1 has 30% and one have 5%. The last one have x%. If x=0 then sum is 50+40+30+5 = 125. So on average 125/5 = 25%. 1st player before share was 50%, after is 25%. – cut in half

I said “cut in half” as an example, not as a calculation of every possible team make up, and I was talking about my personal MF not the team’s MF.

Let’s look at the median versus average
50%, 40%, 30%, 5%, 0% -> median is 30%, average is 25%
50%, 30%, 30%, 30%, 0% -> median is 30%, average is 28%
50%, 10%, 10%, 10%, 10% -> median is 10%, average is 18%
50%, 50%, 50%, 50%, 0% -> median is 50%, average is 40%

If you use the average, players with no MF drag down the player(s) with a lot of MF. You can not convince me that one player without MF on their gear can make up for 10% of 4 other players. Folks without MF will just be taking advantage of folks with a lot of MF.

Drops are not shared among the team, so MF should not be shared among the team. If someone on your PUG isn’t pulling their weight for whatever reason, replace them after the run. Most of the time, the reason I didn’t want to be on a team with folks that has absolutely nothing to do with their gear or how much MF is on it.

You explicitly stated that one player in a group of 5 could reduce your MF by half, which is mathematically impossible.

Regardless, if you use the average, players with lower MF ‘drag down’ the players with higher MF in the exact same way that players with lower combat stats ‘drag down’ players with higher combat stats. They would be ‘taking advantage’ of your MF in the exact same way you would be ‘taking advantage’ of their superior combat prowess.

This is exactly how it should work. I really am running out of ways to make it more clear.

Im not much of a numbers person but Ive seen plenty of posts to know many of you are. Can anyone quantify how much a player is sacrificing if they use Explorer’s armor over another set? So how much damage does a player “lose” by taking Explorers over Bersekers and Rampagers armor?

Please give min./max. if possible — i.e. dont just quote a number which assumes 25 stacks of every possible condition or assumes youre getting nonstop crits., I also want to know what is “lost” if the mob(s) are removing the conditions your stacking as fast as your applying them/your luck is lousy and you just arent getting any crits that day (or if youre just getting into high level stuff and are still working toward a full set of prec. gear and thus have a super low crit chance %).

TL;DR — How much extra cond./crit. damage is being “lost” by not having the extra 16% crit. dmg./224pts of cond. dmg. (min. and max. numbers please).

madgod.7421:

Im not much of a numbers person but Ive seen plenty of posts to know many of you are. Can anyone quantify how much a player is sacrificing if they use Explorer’s armor over another set? So how much damage does a player “lose” by taking Explorers over Bersekers and Rampagers armor?

Please give min./max. if possible — i.e. dont just quote a number which assumes 25 stacks of every possible condition or assumes youre getting nonstop crits., I also want to know what is “lost” if the mob(s) are removing the conditions your stacking as fast as your applying them/your luck is lousy and you just arent getting any crits that day (or if youre just getting into high level stuff and are still working toward a full set of prec. gear and thus have a super low crit chance %).

TL;DR — How much extra cond./crit. damage is being “lost” by not having the extra 16% crit. dmg./224pts of cond. dmg. (min. and max. numbers please).

I couldn’t say exactly, but it’s actually not that important. The important part is that MF is totally unique in being an entirely selfish stat that you have to sacrifice group-beneficial stats to get, and that’s a conceptual problem from a game design perspective regardless of what practical effect it may or may not have in-game (which will vary).

But the choice remains interesting for individual players, so removing it altogether is not a good option. The proper fix for this conceptual problem is to make MF a stat that benefits the group like every other stat does by averaging it out across a party.

Running around in my 200% Magic Find stuff just makes me feel good. I don’t know if it works or not. All I know is I feel better farming Orr in it. My gold/hr HAS increased though since getting it.

Does Gold Bonus Find should be also shared? Karma Bonus? Experience one? All are selfish though.

Actually sharing is not fair. You have taken your point to have most damage dealing build – good for you. But now you want to leach additional stats from other group members (MF). Someone created MF build. Fair enough. Now there is binary statement – do you want to play with him in a group – No – leave the party or kick him. Yes – no complaining here.

I’ve seen the best solution proposed earlier – add special slots for Karma/Exp/Gold/MF boosts. Then you will be able to define what you want. Anet may also add : Crafting materials boost, Mining chance boost and so on.

And one more thing – you are complaining about Explorer set. I do not see a point here. It gives you 18% to MF. 5 runes (Noble, Traveler, Pirate) gives you 50%.
So question : are you fine with Full berserker with Pirate runes?

Armor stats are one thing. Runes and your jevelry set is other.

I think magic find on gear should be handled with utility infusion slots. Gear would have their stats, a slot for the sigil of your choice, and an infusion slot like the utility slot on ascended items where you can choose mf, or more gold, or more karma. I like the idea of choosing what to boost.
Perhaps there is a mystic forge recipe to add this slot to armor pieces, or a quest that opens an npc that will add it for a fee.
Existing mf gear could be exchanged for same level gear of another stat breakdown.

Szamsziel.5627:

Does Gold Bonus Find should be also shared? Karma Bonus? Experience one? All are selfish though.

Actually sharing is not fair. You have taken your point to have most damage dealing build – good for you. But now you want to leach additional stats from other group members (MF). Someone created MF build. Fair enough. Now there is binary statement – do you want to play with him in a group – No – leave the party or kick him. Yes – no complaining here.

I’ve seen the best solution proposed earlier – add special slots for Karma/Exp/Gold/MF boosts. Then you will be able to define what you want. Anet may also add : Crafting materials boost, Mining chance boost and so on.

And one more thing – you are complaining about Explorer set. I do not see a point here. It gives you 18% to MF. 5 runes (Noble, Traveler, Pirate) gives you 50%.
So question : are you fine with Full berserker with Pirate runes?

Armor stats are one thing. Runes and your jevelry set is other.

…. This argument, again, is so nonsensical I don’t even know how to address it. If I build for Power, I’m taking advantage of other peoples’ MF. If I build for MF, I’m taking advantage of other peoples’ power. EXACTLY LIKE IT SHOULD WORK. I’m at a total loss how so many people don’t grasp this.

None of those other things are ‘selfish’ in the same way MF is. Never mind the fact that in groups usually players get the same Karma at the same time, why would Karma, etc. be shared when you aren’t making sacrifices detrimental to your group to get them?

MF is not equivalent to Karma, Gold, or Exp; it is equivalent to Power, Precision, Vitality, etc. The first three have nothing to do with group performance and therefore don’t need to be pooled or shared.

This is just hilarious, really, hysterical.

PsiNorm.3652:

I think magic find on gear should be handled with utility infusion slots. Gear would have their stats, a slot for the sigil of your choice, and an infusion slot like the utility slot on ascended items where you can choose mf, or more gold, or more karma. I like the idea of choosing what to boost.
Perhaps there is a mystic forge recipe to add this slot to armor pieces, or a quest that opens an npc that will add it for a fee.
Existing mf gear could be exchanged for same level gear of another stat breakdown.

we pretty much decided on this on page 3
Ein keeps on complaining though for pages that an average would be better because he wants to leech off people.

Gold actually is (Noble rune, Gold infusion – where power should go). And you are wrong. I agree that you should rewarded – you are providing damage. Good for you. So lets see – You didn’t do anything to boost your MF. But you want to have fair share from my MF. Ok. Let’s be it. But one condition – your power will be shared (averaged). Precision as well. Seems fair? You are taking advantage of me, I’m taking of you.

I do not care if people are with 100%MF or more. As long as we together kill mob – it may take 1 min or 30sec. Want have Full berserk speed run – your game. Want to skip all optional content – go for it. But allow me to do full run and play with players having not optimal builds. I like it more than playing with people complaining : buy legendary, create berserk warrior, you have rares only?, no we wont play in AC with 60lvl… This is just a game, supposed to be fun.

PsiNorm.3652:

I think magic find on gear should be handled with utility infusion slots. Gear would have their stats, a slot for the sigil of your choice, and an infusion slot like the utility slot on ascended items where you can choose mf, or more gold, or more karma. I like the idea of choosing what to boost.
Perhaps there is a mystic forge recipe to add this slot to armor pieces, or a quest that opens an npc that will add it for a fee.
Existing mf gear could be exchanged for same level gear of another stat breakdown.

This.

Seriously, infusions open up a lot of possibilities. We could totally split conomy-stats from buid-stats.

This is the one thing Ascended gear could do right.

Mirta.5029:

PsiNorm.3652:

I think magic find on gear should be handled with utility infusion slots. Gear would have their stats, a slot for the sigil of your choice, and an infusion slot like the utility slot on ascended items where you can choose mf, or more gold, or more karma. I like the idea of choosing what to boost.
Perhaps there is a mystic forge recipe to add this slot to armor pieces, or a quest that opens an npc that will add it for a fee.
Existing mf gear could be exchanged for same level gear of another stat breakdown.

we pretty much decided on this on page 3
Ein keeps on complaining though for pages that an average would be better because he wants to leech off people.

Because you aren’t leeching off peoples’ power builds while running MF, lol. A simpleton could figure this out but sharing /= leeching. Everyone is supporting each other in a party, except people running MF.

BTW, I’d be one of the people running MF if it was shared with the group.

Kain Francois.4328:

PsiNorm.3652:

I think magic find on gear should be handled with utility infusion slots. Gear would have their stats, a slot for the sigil of your choice, and an infusion slot like the utility slot on ascended items where you can choose mf, or more gold, or more karma. I like the idea of choosing what to boost.
Perhaps there is a mystic forge recipe to add this slot to armor pieces, or a quest that opens an npc that will add it for a fee.
Existing mf gear could be exchanged for same level gear of another stat breakdown.

This.

Seriously, infusions open up a lot of possibilities. We could totally split conomy-stats from buid-stats.

This is the one thing Ascended gear could do right.

It’s not a bad suggestion, my main issue is that I actually like the variety that Traveler’s and Explorer’s gear provides and making this change would be a pretty dramatic overhaul to the current itemization system and would likely tee off a lot of players.

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

PsiNorm.3652:

I think magic find on gear should be handled with utility infusion slots. Gear would have their stats, a slot for the sigil of your choice, and an infusion slot like the utility slot on ascended items where you can choose mf, or more gold, or more karma. I like the idea of choosing what to boost.
Perhaps there is a mystic forge recipe to add this slot to armor pieces, or a quest that opens an npc that will add it for a fee.
Existing mf gear could be exchanged for same level gear of another stat breakdown.

we pretty much decided on this on page 3
Ein keeps on complaining though for pages that an average would be better because he wants to leech off people.

Because you aren’t leeching off peoples’ power builds while running MF, lol. A simpleton could figure this out but sharing /= leeching. Everyone is supporting each other in a party, except people running MF.

BTW, I’d be one of the people running MF if it was shared with the group.

Psi suggestion makes it fair though. And it’s less calculations to add an infusion slot, versus taking all the gear in the party, calculating the average for mf and if anyone in that party switches gear – do it all gain.

I would like to see an overhaul where 4 new armor slots are added and can only be populated by various magic find items. For those with current MF gear, the MF stat should be replaced with another and an equivelent item added to their inventory for the MF they lose from their standard option.

There, something else to hunt for and get (MF items to be equipped), current MF gear is compensated, and it doesn’t mean sacrificing any other stat to bring MF as these slots will only be able to hold special MF only gear.

Mirta.5029:

Einlanzer.1627:

Mirta.5029:

PsiNorm.3652:

I think magic find on gear should be handled with utility infusion slots. Gear would have their stats, a slot for the sigil of your choice, and an infusion slot like the utility slot on ascended items where you can choose mf, or more gold, or more karma. I like the idea of choosing what to boost.
Perhaps there is a mystic forge recipe to add this slot to armor pieces, or a quest that opens an npc that will add it for a fee.
Existing mf gear could be exchanged for same level gear of another stat breakdown.

we pretty much decided on this on page 3
Ein keeps on complaining though for pages that an average would be better because he wants to leech off people.

Because you aren’t leeching off peoples’ power builds while running MF, lol. A simpleton could figure this out but sharing /= leeching. Everyone is supporting each other in a party, except people running MF.

BTW, I’d be one of the people running MF if it was shared with the group.

Psi suggestion makes it fair though. And it’s less calculations to add an infusion slot, versus taking all the gear in the party, calculating the average for mf and if anyone in that party switches gear – do it all gain.

That’s actually an extremely simple dynamic calculation and that can made in nanoseconds.

I’ll concede that the infusion slot idea isn’t terrible. I will not concede that there’s anything inherently wrong with the averaging idea. Mostly, it has the benefit of being quite fair and not requiring sweeping overhauls to the current system.

While we’re looking at solutions, why not look at tried-and-tested solutions to the MF gear problem? It’s not a bad idea to look at the successes of other games and adapt and even improve on them.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/6968517/introducing-the-paragon-system-8-20-2012

TLDR: cap MF, give 1% bonus MF (and GF maybe?) for every level up past 80. Call em Ascension levels. This bonus can be nonstacking with MF gear, or alternatively, place a hard cap on MF from gear/food at like 100, and let the MF booster and guild boosters go past the cap. This would mean that if you have MF gear, it would quickly lose usefulness as levelups past 80 are fairly easily attained so it would not be a good investment to make an MF set temporarily. Why use MF gear, when at a few levels in and an omnombar, you’d already be pushing the cap? This lets people who want MF asap, to rethink their usage of MF sets. At a certain point, you would also have no point in using MF food, which is the predominant food of use. This would encourage more broad, dynamic choices in food for gameplay whether it be life on crit, or endurance regen, or might boons and whatnot, which would solve the current staleness of only using omnom/raspberry peach bars no matter what you do.

P.S. Also, give 2 Gifts Of The Ascended upon reaching the max Ascension. Let these be used in crafting an Ascended armorset (full box of all 6 pieces), and an ascended weapon. This would be a good solution to provide characters with access to ascended gearsets, without having a large impact on the economy, and also rewarding players for long term dedicated play. Make achievements for each 10 ascension levels, give a title “The Ascended” at either max Ascension levels or upon equipping a full set of ascended gear (armor, weapon, accessories)

Put me onto your design team now pls ANET

The best solution is to place an MF slot on every gear like we have infusion slots. Then change every current MF armour to something that replaces MF with another stat.

I think sharing mf is sloppy and will lead to the other side of the problem where people who AREN’T running mf gear are the bad guys. I’m curious how a system where we get all the stats AND the potential for mf/more gold/more karma would “tick” anyone off.

Everyone contributes full stats to the team, and not running mf boosts hurts only yourself (and “hurts” is used loosely) .

The idea of gaining mf through leveling as a passive stat also feels wrong. I guess I’m attached to the idea of being able to choose the extra boost I want.

PsiNorm.3652:

I think sharing mf is sloppy and will lead to the other side of the problem where people who AREN’T running mf gear are the bad guys. I’m curious how a system where we get all the stats AND the potential for mf/more gold/more karma would “tick” anyone off.

Everyone contributes full stats to the team, and not running mf boosts hurts only yourself (and “hurts” is used loosely) .

The idea of gaining mf through leveling as a passive stat also feels wrong. I guess I’m attached to the idea of being able to choose the extra boost I want.

The choice is essential, otherwise there’s no point in it existing at all. I already said I don’t have any particular problem with your idea, but I would say I still fail to see how averaging it is sloppy. IMO, MF isn’t such an important/powerful stat that it will lead to elitism like what you see with zerker gear now.

PsiNorm.3652:

I think sharing mf is sloppy and will lead to the other side of the problem where people who AREN’T running mf gear are the bad guys.

I can understand where you are coming from, but at least everybody is benefitting from the MF player gimping themselves. Assuming the rest of the group are fine with a shared “MF run”, the player in the MF gear takes on a selfless role to give everybody in the group better stats while benefitting from a speedy/safer run as the others are not in MF.

I’ll concede it’s hardly a perfect idea, but it’s better than what we have currently.

Flissy.4093:

PsiNorm.3652:

I think sharing mf is sloppy and will lead to the other side of the problem where people who AREN’T running mf gear are the bad guys.

I can understand where you are coming from, but at least everybody is benefitting from the MF player gimping themselves. Assuming the rest of the group are fine with a shared “MF run”, the player in the MF gear takes on a selfless role to give everybody in the group better stats while benefitting from a speedy/safer run as the others are not in MF.

I’ll concede it’s hardly a perfect idea, but it’s better than what we have currently.

Precisely. I would argue that when it comes to simple solutions, sharing it as an average is by far the best option. There are other potentially good solutions but they would be a lot less simple, and I would probably still argue that a dramatic overhaul is totally unnecessary.

I don’t like the idea of just having a “MF notification” for party members. I prefer the ascended gear that has a lot of stats on the same piece. These always come with MF as well…which I really don’t care about or want. Unless they can actually inspect my gear SET and not just my MF , I’m fine with it. Just showing them that I have a constant 30 MF would never work.

The solution of Diablo3 for magic find problem is good, and applicable to GW2. If I remember correctly (too much time without play it) developers added paragon levels, that levels give you magic find % per level, to your character, not to your gear. You start gaining that levels after maximum level.

Spectre.4562:

While we’re looking at solutions, why not look at tried-and-tested solutions to the MF gear problem? It’s not a bad idea to look at the successes of other games and adapt and even improve on them.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/6968517/introducing-the-paragon-system-8-20-2012

TLDR: cap MF, give 1% bonus MF (and GF maybe?) for every level up past 80. Call em Ascension levels. This bonus can be nonstacking with MF gear, or alternatively, place a hard cap on MF from gear/food at like 100, and let the MF booster and guild boosters go past the cap. This would mean that if you have MF gear, it would quickly lose usefulness as levelups past 80 are fairly easily attained so it would not be a good investment to make an MF set temporarily. Why use MF gear, when at a few levels in and an omnombar, you’d already be pushing the cap? This lets people who want MF asap, to rethink their usage of MF sets. At a certain point, you would also have no point in using MF food, which is the predominant food of use. This would encourage more broad, dynamic choices in food for gameplay whether it be life on crit, or endurance regen, or might boons and whatnot, which would solve the current staleness of only using omnom/raspberry peach bars no matter what you do.

P.S. Also, give 2 Gifts Of The Ascended upon reaching the max Ascension. Let these be used in crafting an Ascended armorset (full box of all 6 pieces), and an ascended weapon. This would be a good solution to provide characters with access to ascended gearsets, without having a large impact on the economy, and also rewarding players for long term dedicated play. Make achievements for each 10 ascension levels, give a title “The Ascended” at either max Ascension levels or upon equipping a full set of ascended gear (armor, weapon, accessories)

Put me onto your design team now pls ANET

D3 developers added the paragon system after the shared MF blew up in their face, and it was just as bad.

There is no reason to add any “levels” instead of adjusting drop rates.

Please, no stupid nonsense like that in GW2…

I also think the Diablo 3 system is a great solution. Add visible ranks next to the players name (call it “adventurer level” or something) which add passive %MF for your character up to a cap than only consumables and the like can pass. A player can earn them via skill points or karma (or something else somebody who isn’t farming for a legendary has no idea what to spend these things on). That way the MF gear is still useful and can be gradually replaced. I’m just not sure if this should be visible for other players,however, because some might think “oh, he’s low rank therefore he must be using MF gear let’s find somebody else for the run”. Bottom line, if we have a way to passively build up the stat and there is a cap for it, nobody would want to have it on their gear when they reach said cap and would favor other combat stats.

Einlanzer.1627:

Regardless, if you use the average, players with lower MF ‘drag down’ the players with higher MF in the exact same way that players with lower combat stats ‘drag down’ players with higher combat stats. They would be ‘taking advantage’ of your MF in the exact same way you would be ‘taking advantage’ of their superior combat prowess.

This is exactly how it should work. I really am running out of ways to make it more clear.

I can quantify how much averaging MF across the group impacts me. You have nothing other than your perception that me having MF on my gear impacts my performance at all. You don’t know my build or my play style and I’m fairly confident I could change my MF significantly mid dungeon and you would never notice.

You should look at what behavior your solution encourages, not how it would work ideally. Folks would want everyone else to have high MF while they themselves had the highest DPS so they could get more damage contribution for drops and still have MF. Encouraging DPSers to take advantage of the MFers is not a solution.

A better solution is for like-minded folks to play together, as suggested by someone earlier where the team could decide to accept greater challenge in exchange for more MF.