Guild Wars 2

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Star Ace.5207:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Theftwind.8976:

I have a question for those that are against people using magic find gear in a dungeon setting. Let us assume that you were the only person out of 5 not wearing magic find gear, the other 4 were. Would you still accuse the other 4 of not doing their fair share? How do you determine what is a fair share anyways? That part is highly subjective. Is it by DPS only? Perhaps whoever survives the longest?

I ask this as we had a group of 5 not 3 days ago running the Living Story dungeon. On the final 2 bosses we wiped the first two times until we figured out the patterns and on our last attempt we succeeded. The ironic thing is the one person that survived long enough to rez the others happened to be wearing magic find gear. She was a Ranger and her pet kept the last boss standing busy long enough for her to get the others up. However according to many here that person would not have been valuable to their group and a waste of a spot as she was wearing mf gear.

Once again I will reiterate what many have tried to say here. It is not the gear that makes a person valuable to the group and the value of the gear is highly overrated when DPS numbers take precedence over everything else the person has to offer.

So the Ranger stayed alive well enough to rez you guys without survival stats from gear.
Seeing as Berserker’s also has no survival stats, this is relevant… how? Oh right, it’s not.
No one is denying someone can be of value despite MF gear. However, they are of greater value in another set, as other sets are numerically superior. And this loss of value is for an entirely self-centered bonus that has no impact on the rest of the group, unlike every other stat.

If it was meant by ANet for it to be a “selfish stat” (I have never met selfish numbers, but I guess those things do exist), why was it implemented in the first place? Especially since game design leans towards the cooperative side way more than the competitive. IMHO, it’s just gear that forces you to choose between stat focusing and loot chance %-which is a benefit to many players, but can also be a problem since you can’t have the best of both worlds.

In short, I am not opposing people not liking MF gear-fine, why use what you don’t like for whatever reasons?-but that people justify not using it by hating on players who use it, making it a personal and moral issue (“selfishness”.) If no one forces you to choose something other than Berserker’s (for instance), no one should make feel other players “selfish” for using MF gear-it’s totally inaccurate in many, many cases that people use MF gear just to “leech” of a group-even if it could happen-much like not every player that uses Berserker’s gear is an intolerant elitist.

Well considering Colin’s post on page 1 of this thread, it certainly is a very good question why they put it in like they did when they apparently feel it’s bad.
And the difference between getting mad at people over MF and getting mad over other stats is that other stats can be argued to be better than something else. You can feel as if someone is actually trying to do the best they can with any other stat, because they all have merits. MF sets do not. You see someone with MF and you see someone who is actively not attempting to do their best, and it’s because they want better drops for themselves. Which is fine solo, but in a group, social contract. Then, not only are they breaching the social contract by not trying their best, but they’re also getting better drops because of their breach.

Do not judge all players by their gear use, is all I wish for people to do. FotM gear doesn’t make you a god-practice and experience yields skill. I would never use MF gear in a group that has stated they don’t want it (well, I don’t use it on dungeons at all, save my Syzygy and Ancient Karka Shell with Ruby Jewel on my Warrior), but I don’t see why it’s wrong if every one in the group agrees. I won’t feel “cheated” by a player having theoretically better drops than me-I don’t begrudge people their good luck, and my social contracts are quite freeing-use whatever works for ya. I have met selfish Berserker’s players, and selfless MF gear users, even if you deem that to be an impossibility due to the way it was designed.

I do understand the design problem, but I can’t relate to all the complaining and worrying about whatever someone else uses (“he/she is being selfish!”, I am so much moral than he/she is!"), if you can just group with like-minded people instead of being paranoid about PUGS in your party (no offense intended, and not referring to yourself.)

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Star Ace.5207:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Theftwind.8976:

I have a question for those that are against people using magic find gear in a dungeon setting. Let us assume that you were the only person out of 5 not wearing magic find gear, the other 4 were. Would you still accuse the other 4 of not doing their fair share? How do you determine what is a fair share anyways? That part is highly subjective. Is it by DPS only? Perhaps whoever survives the longest?

I ask this as we had a group of 5 not 3 days ago running the Living Story dungeon. On the final 2 bosses we wiped the first two times until we figured out the patterns and on our last attempt we succeeded. The ironic thing is the one person that survived long enough to rez the others happened to be wearing magic find gear. She was a Ranger and her pet kept the last boss standing busy long enough for her to get the others up. However according to many here that person would not have been valuable to their group and a waste of a spot as she was wearing mf gear.

Once again I will reiterate what many have tried to say here. It is not the gear that makes a person valuable to the group and the value of the gear is highly overrated when DPS numbers take precedence over everything else the person has to offer.

So the Ranger stayed alive well enough to rez you guys without survival stats from gear.
Seeing as Berserker’s also has no survival stats, this is relevant… how? Oh right, it’s not.
No one is denying someone can be of value despite MF gear. However, they are of greater value in another set, as other sets are numerically superior. And this loss of value is for an entirely self-centered bonus that has no impact on the rest of the group, unlike every other stat.

If it was meant by ANet for it to be a “selfish stat” (I have never met selfish numbers, but I guess those things do exist), why was it implemented in the first place? Especially since game design leans towards the cooperative side way more than the competitive. IMHO, it’s just gear that forces you to choose between stat focusing and loot chance %-which is a benefit to many players, but can also be a problem since you can’t have the best of both worlds.

In short, I am not opposing people not liking MF gear-fine, why use what you don’t like for whatever reasons?-but that people justify not using it by hating on players who use it, making it a personal and moral issue (“selfishness”.) If no one forces you to choose something other than Berserker’s (for instance), no one should make feel other players “selfish” for using MF gear-it’s totally inaccurate in many, many cases that people use MF gear just to “leech” of a group-even if it could happen-much like not every player that uses Berserker’s gear is an intolerant elitist.

Well considering Colin’s post on page 1 of this thread, it certainly is a very good question why they put it in like they did when they apparently feel it’s bad.
And the difference between getting mad at people over MF and getting mad over other stats is that other stats can be argued to be better than something else. You can feel as if someone is actually trying to do the best they can with any other stat, because they all have merits. MF sets do not. You see someone with MF and you see someone who is actively not attempting to do their best, and it’s because they want better drops for themselves. Which is fine solo, but in a group, social contract. Then, not only are they breaching the social contract by not trying their best, but they’re also getting better drops because of their breach.

Again, who died and put you in charge of deciding what “doing one’s best” means?

If doing your best means wearing pure DPS gear, do it yourself. Don’t force it on others. And don’t act like every party wants everyone to have pure DPS.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

And I shall bring up the definition again since it apparently needs restating.

self·ish [sel-fish]
adjective
1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one’s own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.

You are being needlessly rude for posting the obvious as if no one knew what selfishness means, but the fact is that the same definition applies to those who want MF users to do things their way to meet their own needs and convenience (which as I said, often exclude way more than MF users as well due to personal convictions of how GW2 is “supposed to be played.”)

I hope you notice the irony, and why blaming others about “being selfish” in this particular issue is self-defeating.

rfdarko posted about this issue (MF users vs non-MF users and the “selfish” argument), and I fully agree with that post.

We’ll never agree if you think every MF gear user is being selfish, so let’s just leave it at that. I promise I won’t judge your character based on your gear choice, even if it’s one I would never use.

I’m not saying it’s not a selfish stat. It is, but just because some people choose to run sub-optimal build does not mean they are not contributing to the group and that they are being carried by the rest or leeching off others.

Yes, it does. It isn’t that they contribute nothing to the group, of course, but it does mean that they are not living up to their potential, and that the rest of the group is having to carry the weight of that gap. If they are being 60% as effective because they are using MF gear then the rest of their group would need to be 10% more effective each to make up for that difference.

If they can stay alive and do some damage and the job gets done, where is the kittening problem?

Because content is not designed for four players. The MF character is not an “extra” character that is just helping out where he can, he’s supposed to be contributing equally to the rest of the group’s members.

If you did not specify in LFG that you did not want MF in your party and then ask me to ping my gear after I have joined I will ping you my non MF set. Do the run and when it is over and you are saying good job, great run, I will ping you my awesome drops and my MF gear and leave.

How very mature of you.

AntiGw.9367:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Star Ace.5207:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Theftwind.8976:

I have a question for those that are against people using magic find gear in a dungeon setting. Let us assume that you were the only person out of 5 not wearing magic find gear, the other 4 were. Would you still accuse the other 4 of not doing their fair share? How do you determine what is a fair share anyways? That part is highly subjective. Is it by DPS only? Perhaps whoever survives the longest?

I ask this as we had a group of 5 not 3 days ago running the Living Story dungeon. On the final 2 bosses we wiped the first two times until we figured out the patterns and on our last attempt we succeeded. The ironic thing is the one person that survived long enough to rez the others happened to be wearing magic find gear. She was a Ranger and her pet kept the last boss standing busy long enough for her to get the others up. However according to many here that person would not have been valuable to their group and a waste of a spot as she was wearing mf gear.

Once again I will reiterate what many have tried to say here. It is not the gear that makes a person valuable to the group and the value of the gear is highly overrated when DPS numbers take precedence over everything else the person has to offer.

So the Ranger stayed alive well enough to rez you guys without survival stats from gear.
Seeing as Berserker’s also has no survival stats, this is relevant… how? Oh right, it’s not.
No one is denying someone can be of value despite MF gear. However, they are of greater value in another set, as other sets are numerically superior. And this loss of value is for an entirely self-centered bonus that has no impact on the rest of the group, unlike every other stat.

If it was meant by ANet for it to be a “selfish stat” (I have never met selfish numbers, but I guess those things do exist), why was it implemented in the first place? Especially since game design leans towards the cooperative side way more than the competitive. IMHO, it’s just gear that forces you to choose between stat focusing and loot chance %-which is a benefit to many players, but can also be a problem since you can’t have the best of both worlds.

In short, I am not opposing people not liking MF gear-fine, why use what you don’t like for whatever reasons?-but that people justify not using it by hating on players who use it, making it a personal and moral issue (“selfishness”.) If no one forces you to choose something other than Berserker’s (for instance), no one should make feel other players “selfish” for using MF gear-it’s totally inaccurate in many, many cases that people use MF gear just to “leech” of a group-even if it could happen-much like not every player that uses Berserker’s gear is an intolerant elitist.

Well considering Colin’s post on page 1 of this thread, it certainly is a very good question why they put it in like they did when they apparently feel it’s bad.
And the difference between getting mad at people over MF and getting mad over other stats is that other stats can be argued to be better than something else. You can feel as if someone is actually trying to do the best they can with any other stat, because they all have merits. MF sets do not. You see someone with MF and you see someone who is actively not attempting to do their best, and it’s because they want better drops for themselves. Which is fine solo, but in a group, social contract. Then, not only are they breaching the social contract by not trying their best, but they’re also getting better drops because of their breach.

Again, who died and put you in charge of deciding what “doing one’s best” means?

If doing your best means wearing pure DPS gear, do it yourself. Don’t force it on others. And don’t act like every party wants everyone to have pure DPS.

Again, math decided that MF makes your efforts inferior to what they would be with something else.
And stop claiming I think pure DPS is everything. I have stated numerous times that it is not. However, Explorer’s gear is most readily compared to Berserker’s/Rampager’s gear, as Explorer’s is a damage set, with both of its useful attributes shared with both of those sets, except Berserker’s and Rampager’s are both better at dealing damage because they have higher Power and a third stat that is actually present in a fight.

And damage is ALWAYS useful. It may not be the most useful thing you could be doing, but as long as you aren’t pulling things you aren’t supposed to be fighting, dealing damage is always helpful. Thus, if your damage is increased without any tradeoffs elsewhere, you are being more useful.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, it does. It isn’t that they contribute nothing to the group, of course, but it does mean that they are not living up to their potential, and that the rest of the group is having to carry the weight of that gap.

Their “potential”, however, is a subjective value which could be applied to any other stat, as I was saying above. Therefore, you could claim that people that are not wearing the stats you wish they would use (be it Berserker’s or something else) are also being “selfish”-which is not true or accurate at all.

It is not any less selfish to want others to play your way (sacrificing their freedom of choice in the process) so you get your own needs met.

This is Guild Wars 2, not “Math Wars”, nor “Efficiency Wars”-yes, be efficient, but do not force it on others (just party with like-minded people, problem solved.)

gimmethegepgun.1284:

AntiGw.9367:

Again, who died and put you in charge of deciding what “doing one’s best” means?

If doing your best means wearing pure DPS gear, do it yourself. Don’t force it on others. And don’t act like every party wants everyone to have pure DPS.

Again, math decided that MF makes your efforts inferior to what they would be with something else.
And stop claiming I think pure DPS is everything. I have stated numerous times that it is not. However, Explorer’s gear is most readily compared to Berserker’s/Rampager’s gear, as Explorer’s is a damage set, with both of its useful attributes shared with both of those sets, except Berserker’s and Rampager’s are both better at dealing damage because they have higher Power and a third stat that is actually present in a fight.

And damage is ALWAYS useful. It may not be the most useful thing you could be doing, but as long as you aren’t pulling things you aren’t supposed to be fighting, dealing damage is always helpful. Thus, if your damage is increased without any tradeoffs elsewhere, you are being more useful.

I didn’t sign up for anything that says that I should always have the most efficient stats, without any tradeoffs that don’t benefit a party.

Did you?

gimmethegepgun.1284:

AntiGw.9367:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Star Ace.5207:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Theftwind.8976:

I have a question for those that are against people using magic find gear in a dungeon setting. Let us assume that you were the only person out of 5 not wearing magic find gear, the other 4 were. Would you still accuse the other 4 of not doing their fair share? How do you determine what is a fair share anyways? That part is highly subjective. Is it by DPS only? Perhaps whoever survives the longest?

I ask this as we had a group of 5 not 3 days ago running the Living Story dungeon. On the final 2 bosses we wiped the first two times until we figured out the patterns and on our last attempt we succeeded. The ironic thing is the one person that survived long enough to rez the others happened to be wearing magic find gear. She was a Ranger and her pet kept the last boss standing busy long enough for her to get the others up. However according to many here that person would not have been valuable to their group and a waste of a spot as she was wearing mf gear.

Once again I will reiterate what many have tried to say here. It is not the gear that makes a person valuable to the group and the value of the gear is highly overrated when DPS numbers take precedence over everything else the person has to offer.

So the Ranger stayed alive well enough to rez you guys without survival stats from gear.
Seeing as Berserker’s also has no survival stats, this is relevant… how? Oh right, it’s not.
No one is denying someone can be of value despite MF gear. However, they are of greater value in another set, as other sets are numerically superior. And this loss of value is for an entirely self-centered bonus that has no impact on the rest of the group, unlike every other stat.

If it was meant by ANet for it to be a “selfish stat” (I have never met selfish numbers, but I guess those things do exist), why was it implemented in the first place? Especially since game design leans towards the cooperative side way more than the competitive. IMHO, it’s just gear that forces you to choose between stat focusing and loot chance %-which is a benefit to many players, but can also be a problem since you can’t have the best of both worlds.

In short, I am not opposing people not liking MF gear-fine, why use what you don’t like for whatever reasons?-but that people justify not using it by hating on players who use it, making it a personal and moral issue (“selfishness”.) If no one forces you to choose something other than Berserker’s (for instance), no one should make feel other players “selfish” for using MF gear-it’s totally inaccurate in many, many cases that people use MF gear just to “leech” of a group-even if it could happen-much like not every player that uses Berserker’s gear is an intolerant elitist.

Well considering Colin’s post on page 1 of this thread, it certainly is a very good question why they put it in like they did when they apparently feel it’s bad.
And the difference between getting mad at people over MF and getting mad over other stats is that other stats can be argued to be better than something else. You can feel as if someone is actually trying to do the best they can with any other stat, because they all have merits. MF sets do not. You see someone with MF and you see someone who is actively not attempting to do their best, and it’s because they want better drops for themselves. Which is fine solo, but in a group, social contract. Then, not only are they breaching the social contract by not trying their best, but they’re also getting better drops because of their breach.

Again, who died and put you in charge of deciding what “doing one’s best” means?

If doing your best means wearing pure DPS gear, do it yourself. Don’t force it on others. And don’t act like every party wants everyone to have pure DPS.

Again, math decided that MF makes your efforts inferior to what they would be with something else.

The problem is that not all players care that much about all that math and efficiency numbers, meaning that you two are not compatible. Why complain about each other choices (“you are selfish!”, “you are elitist!”, etc.) and just play with people you are more compatible with?

I can’t relate to this human need to prove their point of view or playstyle choice must be superior. If only they will let everyone play the game the way they want, and not care that much about what everyone else does.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Promoting-MF-and-GF/first

Star Ace.5207:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

And I shall bring up the definition again since it apparently needs restating.

self·ish [sel-fish]
adjective
1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one’s own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.

You are being needlessly rude for posting the obvious as if no one knew what selfishness means, but the fact is that the same definition applies to those who want MF users to do things their way to meet their own needs and convenience (which as I said, often exclude way more than MF users as well due to personal convictions of how GW2 is “supposed to be played.”)

I hope you notice the irony, and why blaming others about “being selfish” in this particular issue is self-defeating.

rfdarko posted about this issue (MF users vs non-MF users and the “selfish” argument), and I fully agree with that post.

We’ll never agree if you think every MF gear user is being selfish, so let’s just leave it at that. I promise I won’t judge your character based on your gear choice, even if it’s one I would never use.

I will continue to bring up the definition until people stop claiming that MF, which fits the definition perfectly, is not selfish. Which, by definition, it is.
And maybe I am being somewhat selfish in wanting them to pull their own weight instead of wasting their stats on something that only benefits them. However, do note that my side is for the benefit of the other 4 people in the group with the MF users, and not just myself.

In closing, by definition it is selfish. Stop claiming it isn’t.

AntiGw.9367:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

AntiGw.9367:

Again, who died and put you in charge of deciding what “doing one’s best” means?

If doing your best means wearing pure DPS gear, do it yourself. Don’t force it on others. And don’t act like every party wants everyone to have pure DPS.

Again, math decided that MF makes your efforts inferior to what they would be with something else.
And stop claiming I think pure DPS is everything. I have stated numerous times that it is not. However, Explorer’s gear is most readily compared to Berserker’s/Rampager’s gear, as Explorer’s is a damage set, with both of its useful attributes shared with both of those sets, except Berserker’s and Rampager’s are both better at dealing damage because they have higher Power and a third stat that is actually present in a fight.

And damage is ALWAYS useful. It may not be the most useful thing you could be doing, but as long as you aren’t pulling things you aren’t supposed to be fighting, dealing damage is always helpful. Thus, if your damage is increased without any tradeoffs elsewhere, you are being more useful.

I didn’t sign up for anything that says that I should always have the most efficient stats, without any tradeoffs that don’t benefit a party.

Did you?

By joining a group consisting of people putting forth their best efforts, you entered into the social contract with them. If you don’t do the same they have every right to not want anything to do with you for your actions.
And being a social game, the game mechanics should not encourage people to break the social contract by putting themselves before their group.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

AntiGw.9367:

I didn’t sign up for anything that says that I should always have the most efficient stats, without any tradeoffs that don’t benefit a party.

Did you?

By joining a group consisting of people putting forth their best efforts, you entered into the social contract with them. If you don’t do the same they have every right to not want anything to do with you for your actions.
And being a social game, the game mechanics should not encourage people to break the social contract by putting themselves before their group.

I’ve never joined any group that matches your description, and I’ve certainly never entered that kind of contract.

It looks like you assume that every group will always want to follow your definition of “best efforts”. You are horribly mistaken.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Star Ace.5207:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

And I shall bring up the definition again since it apparently needs restating.

self·ish [sel-fish]
adjective
1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one’s own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.

You are being needlessly rude for posting the obvious as if no one knew what selfishness means, but the fact is that the same definition applies to those who want MF users to do things their way to meet their own needs and convenience (which as I said, often exclude way more than MF users as well due to personal convictions of how GW2 is “supposed to be played.”)

I hope you notice the irony, and why blaming others about “being selfish” in this particular issue is self-defeating.

rfdarko posted about this issue (MF users vs non-MF users and the “selfish” argument), and I fully agree with that post.

We’ll never agree if you think every MF gear user is being selfish, so let’s just leave it at that. I promise I won’t judge your character based on your gear choice, even if it’s one I would never use.

I will continue to bring up the definition until people stop claiming that MF, which fits the definition perfectly, is not selfish. Which, by definition, it is.
And maybe I am being somewhat selfish in wanting them to pull their own weight instead of wasting their stats on something that only benefits them. However, do note that my side is for the benefit of the other 4 people in the group with the MF users, and not just myself.

In closing, by definition it is selfish. Stop claiming it isn’t.

I have the right to state my opinion, and you are free to disagree with it; however you have no right to tell me when I should or not express myself. So stop telling me to stop “claiming” stuff I firmly believe in.

I’ll repeat-MF gear is not “selfish”, people are. Their choice of gear may or not be a selfish act, but it’s not a given that it is.

In the end, intolerance is not much better than selfishness, if you really see it as an issue of morals, which I doubt is the genuine motivation behind the “selfish” argument. IMO, most people that complain about MF gear are just disgruntled about people getting better loot than they do with lesser combat stats and/or making their Dungeon runs theoretically “slower”, more than them trying to teach “morals” to the community (plus this is something they are working on already-no need to pound on it forever, seeing as ANet does find it problematic-they didn’t acknowledge any moral issues about the stuff, though.)

In short, if you absolutely have to hate MF gear and their users, no need to use “selfishness” as a valid argument, because it isn’t-unless you are ready to accept that you are “also” being selfish-AND intolerant-for criticizing them in the first place. There are many ways it’s not an ideal design-which ANet realizes-but it’s not necessarily related to people being selfish or selfless.

Magic find = Selfish Leecher

Assyrian.4827:

Magic find = Selfish Leecher

According to whom?

Star Ace.5207:

Assyrian.4827:

Magic find = Selfish Leecher

According to whom?

To players who carry em through the game

Assyrian.4827:

Star Ace.5207:

Assyrian.4827:

Magic find = Selfish Leecher

According to whom?

To players who carry em through the game

Mm, why not stop “carrying them”, and party with people that think like you do instead? If you don’t agree with their choice, nobody is forcing you to play with them.

My point above was, you have no right to determine whether somebody is selfish or not just because they may be using MF gear. I wouldn’t judge you either for choosing to play whichever way you please.

Lmao, the first page is just priceless.

Have read bits anf pieces of this thread and thought as a person who has been running mf gear since Halloween I should put my 2 cents worth in.

First some facts:
- mf is here to stay: it aint going anywhere after everyone’s time and effort to acquire the gear unless a substantial compensation is given in return if removed.

- no way will MY gear assist others in a party on the grounds of giving THEM mf chance. That is my time and effort so others can benefit from. Aahhh I dont think so. And if u think yes then guess what. Ur going to be sharing that loot u just got as well. How u like that? Hhhmmmm.

Whole point of mf gear is so I can get better loot regardless where I am or who I am with. I have been running it for so long that there is maybe a handful of times that yes other stats could of been more appropriate OR a different trait/skill setup could of assisted better. But there has been countless times where in wvw and dungs that I have survived where so called legendaries/elites have failed and I was sitting there reviving them.

So yet another complaining thread to waste time about a topic that will be forever argued until anet provide full mf calculation/result against drop table OR it removed entirely/replaced. I see the latter not happening at all.

And unfortunately there is no solution to this. Those that despise it will avoid those with it and those with it will not leave it until better drop rates/rewards…

Only reason I run it is cos I have hopes of a precursor drop or at least a farming mechanism for gold to buy one.

This will be a constant issue. Anet needs to step in and resolve this difficult problem and it has to be done very carefully. ….

Their “potential”, however, is a subjective value which could be applied to any other stat, as I was saying above. Therefore, you could claim that people that are not wearing the stats you wish they would use (be it Berserker’s or something else) are also being “selfish”-which is not true or accurate at all.

That depends on their build. Zerkers isn’t optimal for every build, so as long as you’re wearing the best armor type for your build, that’s fine. If you aren’t why wouldn’t you be? There wouldn’t be any rational reason to not gear up for the stats that benefit yyour build, that’s just be playing stupid, not playing different.

But still, like I said, there is NO armor set in the game that is less effective than Explorers. Even if they are in the second worst armor, they will still be more effective than if they were wearing a set of Explorers. Even if they were wearing rare armor instead of exotic, it would still be better than exotic explorers. And the problem isn’t just that they are being sub-optimal, it’s that they are being deliberately sub-optimal in order to increase their own benefit.

I mean, if you have five friends paying for dinner, and one of them is poor so he can’t contribute as much, then maybe you cut the guy some slack, but if you know that guy has just as much money as anyone else, and eats just as much, but pockets his share of the bill so that he’ll have more money left than the rest of you, well that guy is a kitten-sack.

Using MF gear is not “playing your way,” there is not gameplay difference to it, it is not more “fun” than other builds, it is all about greed, not “fun.”

According to whom?

Reality.

Mm, why not stop “carrying them”, and party with people that think like you do instead? If you don’t agree with their choice, nobody is forcing you to play with them.

There’s no way to definitively tell them apart from other players, and some MFers in this thread have admitted to being deliberately deceptive about it. Would you at least be cool with them adding an icon to the game that appears on a character’s portrait when they are wearing MF gear so that it’s impossible to lie about it?

- no way will MY gear assist others in a party on the grounds of giving THEM mf chance. That is my time and effort so others can benefit from. Aahhh I dont think so. And if u think yes then guess what. Ur going to be sharing that loot u just got as well. How u like that? Hhhmmmm.

That’s just silly. Most people who have a full set of MF gear could replace it with a full set of anything else in a heartbeat if they wanted to. Plenty already own an alternate suit if only to fake people out with. Not to mention that if they did remove MF, I can guarantee you that they wouldn’t just “remove” it. They would likely substitute some other benefit to the MF sets, and ANY stat would be better than MF. They might even be nice and offer some sort of trade-in option, where you could turn in any set of Explorer’s armor for some kind of compensation, like maybe enough dungeon tokens to buy something else instead.

- no way will MY gear assist others in a party on the grounds of giving THEM mf chance. That is my time and effort so others can benefit from. Aahhh I dont think so. And if u think yes then guess what. Ur going to be sharing that loot u just got as well. How u like that? Hhhmmmm.

What about the time and effort they put into building their gear? You already benefit from that by how much faster you clear the content than if they’d been using MF gear instead. To put it simply, every armor type has a primary stat. Explorer’s gear’s primary stat is MF. If you are wearing Explorer gear and they are not, then the entire time you are running with them, they are sharing their primary stat with you, by using their Power or Precision to kill things faster than they would without it (and therefore you to accumulate drops faster), while you are contributing nothing from that stat to them (since your MF rate offers them nothing at all). Don’t try to pretend that there’s anything fair about that situation.

Star Ace.5207:

Assyrian.4827:

Star Ace.5207:

Assyrian.4827:

Magic find = Selfish Leecher

According to whom?

To players who carry em through the game

Mm, why not stop “carrying them”, and party with people that think like you do instead? If you don’t agree with their choice, nobody is forcing you to play with them.

My point above was, you have no right to determine whether somebody is selfish or not just because they may be using MF gear. I wouldn’t judge you either for choosing to play whichever way you please.

Because the game doesn’t give me the tools to do so? There is no CLEAR indicator of how much MF the party members have so I don’t party with them. They cheat and ping their “other” gear and then laugh when they get better drops…

I don’t care if you use green, if you use suboptimal traits, if you use blue gear, if you are underleveled, I don’t care if you are a bad player or a player that is just learning now, but if you use MF you are using at the expense of me and the other non-mf users. So I have every right to determine if someone is selfish, and if they use MF gear they ARE selfish and there is no denying that. They are selfish, people who only think of themselves and don’t give a kitten about the group, their party, and they shouldn’t be allowed to party with others.

And the "I stay alive in my MF gear while the others in “pro” gear die around me" is the one argument pro-mfers use, there is absolutely no other argument to support MF and it is getting very old. To all pro-MFers: Find a new argument then come back on this thread or any MF thread, now we are just going in circles as a different person restates the same thing over and over again (then gets blasted over and over again) then a different pro-MFer starts again. It’s turning into a bad joke.

Star Ace.5207:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Star Ace.5207:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

And I shall bring up the definition again since it apparently needs restating.

self·ish [sel-fish]
adjective
1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one’s own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.

You are being needlessly rude for posting the obvious as if no one knew what selfishness means, but the fact is that the same definition applies to those who want MF users to do things their way to meet their own needs and convenience (which as I said, often exclude way more than MF users as well due to personal convictions of how GW2 is “supposed to be played.”)

I hope you notice the irony, and why blaming others about “being selfish” in this particular issue is self-defeating.

rfdarko posted about this issue (MF users vs non-MF users and the “selfish” argument), and I fully agree with that post.

We’ll never agree if you think every MF gear user is being selfish, so let’s just leave it at that. I promise I won’t judge your character based on your gear choice, even if it’s one I would never use.

I will continue to bring up the definition until people stop claiming that MF, which fits the definition perfectly, is not selfish. Which, by definition, it is.
And maybe I am being somewhat selfish in wanting them to pull their own weight instead of wasting their stats on something that only benefits them. However, do note that my side is for the benefit of the other 4 people in the group with the MF users, and not just myself.

In closing, by definition it is selfish. Stop claiming it isn’t.

I have the right to state my opinion, and you are free to disagree with it; however you have no right to tell me when I should or not express myself. So stop telling me to stop “claiming” stuff I firmly believe in.

I’ll repeat-MF gear is not “selfish”, people are. Their choice of gear may or not be a selfish act, but it’s not a given that it is.

In the end, intolerance is not much better than selfishness, if you really see it as an issue of morals, which I doubt is the genuine motivation behind the “selfish” argument. IMO, most people that complain about MF gear are just disgruntled about people getting better loot than they do with lesser combat stats and/or making their Dungeon runs theoretically “slower”, more than them trying to teach “morals” to the community (plus this is something they are working on already-no need to pound on it forever, seeing as ANet does find it problematic-they didn’t acknowledge any moral issues about the stuff, though.)

In short, if you absolutely have to hate MF gear and their users, no need to use “selfishness” as a valid argument, because it isn’t-unless you are ready to accept that you are “also” being selfish-AND intolerant-for criticizing them in the first place. There are many ways it’s not an ideal design-which ANet realizes-but it’s not necessarily related to people being selfish or selfless.

You have the right to stick to an objectively wrong opinion, and I have the right to dictate the definition of the word you deny applies to a situation to you in order to demonstrate the fact that you are objectively wrong.

Maybe I am being selfish. Maybe I am being “intolerant” of their antisocial behavior, and especially the defenders of that behavior. Does that somehow make me wrong? All that demonstrates is I may be a kitten, it doesn’t say anything about whether or not I am correct.

The fact is, MF gear is selfish. Alone obviously the downsides harm no one but yourself, but grouped together the downsides harm your teammates as well, but only give you the benefits. That is the definition of selfishness. The choice to take the selfish gear over gear you feel is better suited to being useful is likewise selfish.

I would say you two should get a room, but seems you have already found one.

Ohoni.6057:

There’s no way to definitively tell them apart from other players, and some MFers in this thread have admitted to being deliberately deceptive about it. Would you at least be cool with them adding an icon to the game that appears on a character’s portrait when they are wearing MF gear so that it’s impossible to lie about it?

I am sorry, I disagree with mostly everything regarding necessary “selfishness” in the motives behind using MF gear, and I don’t think we’ll convince each other seeing as we come from a different mindset, so I’ll just agree to disagree.

I would have mixed feelings about MF characters being singled-out, because it would be a sort of gear-check mechanism for many, “to cull the inefficient”. People should just be honest (which often they are not, sadly.) I understand how many people can “cheat” the current system by switching armors, but wouldn’t putting an icon on them feel as if MF users were being stigmatized? I would have no problem if I trusted humans more, but am aware that having players with MF gear “tagged” may be used in the community as a sort of dunce-hat-and I know that not every MF user is a dunce (or “selfish”, what have you.)

(I wonder if the “switch and bait” strategy among MF users is really common, since I myself hate having armor sets with different stats with the same skin. Does that many people switch armor on all of you, or is it the possibility that makes some be a bit paranoid about it?)

I do NOT condone armor switch and bait, BTW, of any kind. That said, I don’t like partying with people who do gear checks either, whether I meet the requirements or otherwise, based on the principles of freedom of choice. However, you are free to require pings and stuff (freedom of choice again)-just that I won’t party with you because I do not enjoy the practice. Switching armors just to spite others is not my thing, and while I do understand the angst of many while they do that stuff, I can’t agree with it because it’s dishonest and basically trolling.

My problem with saying that all MF users are selfish leeches is knowing it isn’t the truth for every single player that employs it, thus it feels like virtual bigotry to me-(“all Chinese are ____!”similar to “all MF gear users are ____!”) I cannot stand for such a thing myself, even if there are supposedly “rational” reasons behind the bigotry (in fact, the “selfishness” rationale used against it is not solid.)

If you don’t like someone using certain gear, don’t party with them. No need to judge their character based on your own gear preferences (I don’t like MF gear on my characters, ESPECIALLY on Dungeons, but feel like it’s none of my business if somebody else has no problem with it, nor do I get envious if someone else gets better drops than me with theoretically worse stats.)

MF gear has its problems (I hate having to choose between better stats that suit my build vs better theoretical drops) but don’t blame the player-blame the game’s current design, which is bound to be altered at some point given earlier developer’s response.

(On a more human side, I would hate if I have a dear friend online that does use MF gear called “selfish” JUST because he/she uses the gear-especially if I know the person is anything but. I will defend his/her right to use whatever he/she wants to, undisturbed by anti-MF gear bias. He/she may just be hungry for better drops, maybe is trying out his/her skill with the gear, etc.-in short, he/she may be doing everything BUT intentionally trying to “leech” off the group, as is usually the claim.)

Take care, I hope I did not exasperate you. I am honestly tired of writing the same stuff over and over, especially knowing that most people won’t be convinced and change their minds on the issue. Just wished there was more leniency in the community so that people felt more free to play whichever way they want without feeling under the scrutiny of certain individuals. No need to debate about stuff that we won’t ever agree on-we have our reasons to believe the way we do.

I did like how they changed the thread’s title. It used to be" Magic Find – Why it IS bad". The new title is more appropriate-it’s not that “it’s wrong” to use it, but that it has its flaws.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Star Ace.5207:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Star Ace.5207:

gimmethegepgun.1284:

And I shall bring up the definition again since it apparently needs restating.

self·ish [sel-fish]
adjective
1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one’s own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.

You are being needlessly rude for posting the obvious as if no one knew what selfishness means, but the fact is that the same definition applies to those who want MF users to do things their way to meet their own needs and convenience (which as I said, often exclude way more than MF users as well due to personal convictions of how GW2 is “supposed to be played.”)

I hope you notice the irony, and why blaming others about “being selfish” in this particular issue is self-defeating.

rfdarko posted about this issue (MF users vs non-MF users and the “selfish” argument), and I fully agree with that post.

We’ll never agree if you think every MF gear user is being selfish, so let’s just leave it at that. I promise I won’t judge your character based on your gear choice, even if it’s one I would never use.

I will continue to bring up the definition until people stop claiming that MF, which fits the definition perfectly, is not selfish. Which, by definition, it is.
And maybe I am being somewhat selfish in wanting them to pull their own weight instead of wasting their stats on something that only benefits them. However, do note that my side is for the benefit of the other 4 people in the group with the MF users, and not just myself.

In closing, by definition it is selfish. Stop claiming it isn’t.

I have the right to state my opinion, and you are free to disagree with it; however you have no right to tell me when I should or not express myself. So stop telling me to stop “claiming” stuff I firmly believe in.

I’ll repeat-MF gear is not “selfish”, people are. Their choice of gear may or not be a selfish act, but it’s not a given that it is.

In the end, intolerance is not much better than selfishness, if you really see it as an issue of morals, which I doubt is the genuine motivation behind the “selfish” argument. IMO, most people that complain about MF gear are just disgruntled about people getting better loot than they do with lesser combat stats and/or making their Dungeon runs theoretically “slower”, more than them trying to teach “morals” to the community (plus this is something they are working on already-no need to pound on it forever, seeing as ANet does find it problematic-they didn’t acknowledge any moral issues about the stuff, though.)

In short, if you absolutely have to hate MF gear and their users, no need to use “selfishness” as a valid argument, because it isn’t-unless you are ready to accept that you are “also” being selfish-AND intolerant-for criticizing them in the first place. There are many ways it’s not an ideal design-which ANet realizes-but it’s not necessarily related to people being selfish or selfless.

You have the right to stick to an objectively wrong opinion, and I have the right to dictate the definition of the word you deny applies to a situation to you in order to demonstrate the fact that you are objectively wrong.

Maybe I am being selfish. Maybe I am being “intolerant” of their antisocial behavior, and especially the defenders of that behavior. Does that somehow make me wrong? All that demonstrates is I may be a kitten, it doesn’t say anything about whether or not I am correct.

The fact is, MF gear is selfish. Alone obviously the downsides harm no one but yourself, but grouped together the downsides harm your teammates as well, but only give you the benefits. That is the definition of selfishness. The choice to take the selfish gear over gear you feel is better suited to being useful is likewise selfish.

It would only be “selfish” is you were switched and baited-not if it was agreed upon. Since not all MF users do that stuff, therefore not everybody is selfish as you claim. Unless you are a sort of all-knowing god, you have no way to know a person is being really selfish, or whatever his/her motives are-even if your past bad experiences tell you otherwise, or if you can’t just envision any other reason for their behavior.

I don’t care about proving others “wrong” or “winning” arguments, so I’ll just state my point once last time: using MF gear is not inherently selfish, much like using only “zerk gear” doesn’t necessarily mean that you have a bad case of ultra-elitism. It’s not about character, but about gameplay choices. If the MF user trolled you, yes, that’s inappropriate. But there are all sort trolls/grievers with any sort of gear as well.

I am sorry, I disagree with mostly everything regarding necessary “selfishness” in the motives behind using MF gear, and I don’t think we’ll convince each other seeing as we come from a different mindset, so I’ll just agree to disagree.

Ok, fair enough then, make your case. If MF gear is not inherently selfish, then what am I missing? It should be easy for you to spell out. How is YOUR MF stat benefiting anyone on your team who isn’t you. Assuming you’re right and it isn’t a selfish stat, you can answer that easily enough. If there is no good answer to that question, and I must admit I can’t think of one, then it is, by definition, a purely selfish stat to be using.

I’m not talking about what you bring to the team in spite of your MF gear, I’m asking what is your MF gear itself providing to the team, in replacement for the +40% damage, or crit rate, or durability, or other traits you would be bringing in proper gear. If you can’t give a straight answer to what your MF gear provides to the group that a different gear would provide, then it is, by definition, a selfish choice to wear it instead.

I understand how many people can “cheat” the current system by switching armors, but wouldn’t putting an icon on them feel as if MF users were being stigmatized?

Yes, but only because they should be. This is not being “unfair” to them, these are people who are deliberately choosing to drag the team down in their own self-interest. This is not singling them out for anything that is outside their control, this is them making a deliberate choice to be LESS helpful to the group in exchange for their own benefit. Any negative reaction they might receive from other players for making that selfish choice is a well earned reaction.

My problem with saying that all MF users are selfish leeches is knowing it isn’t the truth for every single player that employs it, thus it feels like virtual bigotry to me-(“all Chinese are ____!”similar to “all MF gear users are ____!”) I cannot stand for such a thing myself, even if there are supposedly “rational” reasons behind the bigotry (in fact, the “selfishness” rationale used against it is not solid.)

But that’s the problem, “all Chinese. . .” would be bigotry because there’s no actual truth to it, there is no answer to that which is not a preconceived fallacy. “All MFers. . . are selfish” is an inarguable fact. They have chosen to bring 40% LESS to the rest of the group, in exchanged for THEM earning better loot. You can be fine with that if you want to, but it’s not bigotry to single them out.

You seem to think this is like a store owner saying “I don’t like [that person] because he looks like a shoplifter,” and then discriminating against him. This is not that. It’s actually more like the shop owner SEEING the guy putting items into his pockets and trying to leave the store with them. Yes, that guy IS a shoplifter, and he deserves sanction for his behavior. Even if he’s otherwise a GREAT guy, he is shoplifting, and fully deserves to be treated as a shoplifter, not because of how he looks, but because he lifts from shops.

If you wear MF gear, you might be a great guy in all other respects, but you’re stealing 8% of the group’s overall effectiveness, just by vice of wearing MF gear instead of something else, and that’s true whether you’d like it to be true or not.

Take care, I hope I did not exasperate you. I am honestly tired of writing the same stuff over and over, especially knowing that most people won’t be convinced and change their minds on the issue.

Have you ever considered if perhaps it’s because you’ve taken the wrong side of it?

Just wished there was more leniency in the community so that people felt more free to play whichever way they want without feeling under the scrutiny of certain individuals.

This isn’t a “free to play how they like” situation. MF gear is not a “way to play the game.” A person wearing MF gear does not play any differently than someone in Zerker gear, they just don’t do it as well. This is not like saying that you shouldn’t do Condition spec, or shouldn’t use this class, or that weapon, or this traiting build. I would defend anyone’s right to play as a sword/torch Ranger or whatever they like, but this is not that. MF gear brings NOTHING to a character other than more loot, it does not alter gameplay in any way beyond being weaker than you would be in anything else. There is nothing to respect about “the way someone wants to play” if their “way they want to play” is “exactly like I would in better armor, only 40% less helpful to the rest of you, and with me getting more loot, but you guys getting nothing.”

It would only be “selfish” is you were switched and baited-not if it was agreed upon. Since not all MF users do that stuff, therefore not everybody is selfish as you claim.

It’s still selfish even if you tell people up front about it. That’s essentially saying “I have a cookie, and I’m not going to share it.” Now maybe everyone’s cool with that, but it’s still an inherently selfish position. If you announce to a group “I’m wearing all MF armor,” and they’re cool with it, then that’s fine, but it doesn’t make you not selfish, it just means that the rest of the group is tolerating your selfishness. The only way you could wear MF gear and not be selfish is if EVERY member of the team is wearing MF gear, because then everyone would benefit equally from it, and that’s fine.

It is nice that Colin is finally lining up with current thinking on MF. I would suggest that you don’t call it paragon levels when you take MF off gear as that is already taken. Perhaps go with Kripps suggestion and call it champion levels. Glad to hear that you recognize it as a problem though. Perhaps consulting in the area of game design by experienced developers would help you to avoid problems like this in the future.

I dont understand this constant statement of who is the more effective player. . Me the mf’er in relation to someone running powvittou… vit and tou keep him alive longer yea and my dodging and healing do the same thing. If anything I have a higher crit chance then him due to pre. So in fairness I would be more effective.

If u want to label me selfish then thats just a silly statement since I know I go above and beyond to help my friends, guildies and anyone else I can assist.

Tbh I think we r all selfish in some respects. How many of u have given items away no expecting anything in return? ?? I know I have.

To settle the effectiveness argument, I believe I’ll wait for the dung leaderboards thingy to see where I get rated after a run…

Ohoni.6057:

The only way you could wear MF gear and not be selfish is if EVERY member of the team is wearing MF gear, because then everyone would benefit equally from it, and that’s fine.

This proves is not that the player is necessarily “selfish”, but that others are some times being envious of him/her for he/she theoretically getting better drops with lesser stats then they do. I personally have no problem with whatever gear people want to use as long as we work together and do well-which we will-even if I was the only non-MF user in the group (the “problem” doesn’t exist for me, because I don’t care nor see a problem with allowing them to use whatever.)

I am sorry you wasted your time and energy getting angry about it, since I am not the “debating” type, and I have already touched on all of these usual subjects before in the thread and elsewhere on the forums. To be honest, it’s not worth your time to get angry about this stuff, and people that disagree with you are not necessarily “on the wrong side of the argument”, but may just feel differently than you do, and that’s OK.

-MF gear has its problems

-Selfishness is not the problem (that’s a personal character issue-MF gear won’t make anyone “selfish” if he/she isn’t really selfish, nor will non-MF gear make anyone selfless if he/she is all about himself/herself at heart.)

-Stat loss over MF% IS the problem (it is what causes these types of useless debates in the first place, dividing the community)

-For now, the simple solution is: play with those who agree with your points, don’t play with those who disagree with you. There’s no need to judge the character of those who would disagree with you-let them be “selfish” as you call them, but leave them in peace.

-ANet is looking into this issue, though I admit this is probably hard to fix so that everyone is pleased

End of thread. My apologies for stirring your emotions, I wasn’t intending to flame/troll you at all.

Star Ace.5207:

-Selfishness is not the problem (that’s a personal character issue-MF gear won’t make anyone “selfish” if he/she isn’t really selfish, nor will non-MF gear make anyone selfless if he/she is all about himself/herself at heart.)

You mean when that MF user gets a precursor I like he will give it to me? You mean that when that MF user gets something that I want (and he doesn’t) he will give it to me? If not then he is selfish, he is using his gear to get more loot, and then doesn’t share it, that’s what being selfish is all about.

I “share” my damage and I “share” my survivability and healing, does he share his loot? If no then he is selfsih plain and simple there is no arguing and no denying it, that’s a pure simple fact.

So people who use MF contribute the least and should be ousted / outcasted from groups, encouraged to be kicked from parties, etc. Because MF isn’t “optimal.” It’s a “waste” of a stat. It’s “selfish.”

Most dungeons are a laugh, most of the drops from non-chests in dungeons are laugh as well. 1: I don’t know why anyone would really wear MF in a dungeon to begin with. Less mobs, stronger mobs at that, and no real spectacular drops? You get kitten from the chest, and the tokens, for dungeons. I agree that MF doesn’t belong in dungeons. Not because I have a sworn duty to do things only for the team, but because MF simply sucks in dungeons.

And if we want to go on a kick about “Oh, it’s a waste of a stat, etc, It’s not optimal, etc, it’s not benefitting the team, etc.” Let’s talk about kicking people who aren’t in exotics. Or who don’t have ascended. Or those who aren’t using a tried and true build. Or those who are using classes that aren’t that great.

Oh wait, this is already happening a lot. I’m sorry you’ve had crappy MF people in your dungeon groups (Because dungeons are best place for Magic Find farming?) but let’s not pretend like having an MF person making your “Super duper CoF speedrun Path 3 4 Warriors 1 Mesmer” take a few minutes longer is really the end of the world. Let’s not pretend like everybody who does a dungeon is going to go balls-to-the-wall gungho-all-about-the-team mode.

Otherwise, I’d kick people who don’t use consumables, who don’t have revive orbs, or who don’t use boosters. Why? It’d help the team out in general, so if they don’t use them, it’s selfish. Oh wait, that’s why: Most dungeons simply don’t require that much.

TL;DR: Magic Find in dungeons is useless. Outside of dungeons is open world PVE, and that’s laughable in comparison to dungeon difficulty. If I want to risk combat effectiveness (When I don’t need 100% balls-to-the-wall to tag enemies, kill standard PVE enemies, etc.) for better drops, I’m going to kitten well do it. I’m sorry people think MF in Dungeons is good, but it seems to me like MF is a non-issue everywhere except dungeons. (Where Magic Find shouldn’t really be used anyway.)

Furthermore, “Omg my CoF run is going to take 3 minutes longer because this kitten” seems like a “Who really cares” thing. Seems like a case of “Not operating at peak efficiency, kick.”

So basically…people who think MF is good in dungeons run it, the rest of the people, no matter his level of skill, see him as selfish because he’s trying to profit for himself. (OMG what? What blasphemy! Especially in my CoF speedrun to get myself money to buy MYSELF stuff.)

People make this MF kitten into a bigger thing than it needs to be. MF sucks in dungeons, that’s why I don’t run it in dungeons. But I sure as hell will run it everywhere else, and enjoy it, because I don’t need to be 100% all the time especially in open world PVE.

I say leave it in. It’s a choice between effectiveness and profit. The only problem is the 1/100 people that run MF in dungeons and somehow cause the whole thing to deteriorate. (But I could argue that people not using consumables slow it down too, but I guess that’s a different situation?)

Most dungeons don’t take “100%” anyway.

And no, I don’t predominantly run MF gear. Only in open world PVE, on classes that greatly benefit from it, and have lots of damage output.

Sokina.8041:

People make this MF kitten into a bigger thing than it needs to be. MF sucks in dungeons, that’s why I don’t run it in dungeons. But I sure as hell will run it everywhere else, and enjoy it, because I don’t need to be 100% all the time especially in open world PVE.

I don’t think anyone wants to remove MF from open world… it should just simply be disabled in dungeons, there, all problems solved in one simple to implement move.

FuriousPop.2789:

If u want to label me selfish then thats just a silly statement since I know I go above and beyond to help my friends, guildies and anyone else I can assist.

Tbh I think we r all selfish in some respects. How many of u have given items away no expecting anything in return? ?? I know I have.

You are exactly the type of player I refer to when I defend MF users as not all being “leeches.” It is a but a bad stigma, and not necessarily a fact-players character’s being judged because of the way MF was designed.

There are even ascended items with MF% stats. It’s not “wrong” nor evil, just a player’s personal choice, and I frankly doubt that most players are thinking about “gimping groups” when they acquire the stuff.

Hopefully they change the system soon, so this type of thread dies forever and people stop hating on each other for silly game stuff.

Star Ace.5207:

There are even ascended items with MF% stats. It’s not “wrong” nor evil, just a player’s personal choice, and I frankly doubt that most players are thinking about “gimping groups” when they acquire the stuff.

Then what are they thinking about? “Gimping groups for personal gain” is exactly what they are doing, why else would they use MF gear in a party setting?

maddoctor.2738:

Sokina.8041:

People make this MF kitten into a bigger thing than it needs to be. MF sucks in dungeons, that’s why I don’t run it in dungeons. But I sure as hell will run it everywhere else, and enjoy it, because I don’t need to be 100% all the time especially in open world PVE.

I don’t think anyone wants to remove MF from open world… it should just simply be disabled in dungeons, there, all problems solved in one simple to implement move.

Okay, good. It seemed like some people wanted to just abolish MF completely. I would like, however, for a dungeon party to calculate who has the highest MF value and give that same value to all party members, to compensate. That would be amazing, honestly.

Sokina.8041:

maddoctor.2738:

Sokina.8041:

People make this MF kitten into a bigger thing than it needs to be. MF sucks in dungeons, that’s why I don’t run it in dungeons. But I sure as hell will run it everywhere else, and enjoy it, because I don’t need to be 100% all the time especially in open world PVE.

I don’t think anyone wants to remove MF from open world… it should just simply be disabled in dungeons, there, all problems solved in one simple to implement move.

Okay, good. It seemed like some people wanted to just abolish MF completely. I would like, however, for a dungeon party to calculate who has the highest MF value and give that same value to all party members, to compensate. That would be amazing, honestly.

There are lots of ideas, remove completely, take the average, or take the highest number, let’s wait and see which one Anet will choose.

Sokina.8041:

So people who use MF contribute the least and should be ousted / outcasted from groups, encouraged to be kicked from parties, etc. Because MF isn’t “optimal.” It’s a “waste” of a stat. It’s “selfish.”

Most dungeons are a laugh, most of the drops from non-chests in dungeons are laugh as well. 1: I don’t know why anyone would really wear MF in a dungeon to begin with. Less mobs, stronger mobs at that, and no real spectacular drops? You get kitten from the chest, and the tokens, for dungeons. I agree that MF doesn’t belong in dungeons. Not because I have a sworn duty to do things only for the team, but because MF simply sucks in dungeons.

And if we want to go on a kick about “Oh, it’s a waste of a stat, etc, It’s not optimal, etc, it’s not benefitting the team, etc.” Let’s talk about kicking people who aren’t in exotics. Or who don’t have ascended. Or those who aren’t using a tried and true build. Or those who are using classes that aren’t that great.

Oh wait, this is already happening a lot. I’m sorry you’ve had crappy MF people in your dungeon groups (Because dungeons are best place for Magic Find farming?) but let’s not pretend like having an MF person making your “Super duper CoF speedrun Path 3 4 Warriors 1 Mesmer” take a few minutes longer is really the end of the world. Let’s not pretend like everybody who does a dungeon is going to go balls-to-the-wall gungho-all-about-the-team mode.

Otherwise, I’d kick people who don’t use consumables, who don’t have revive orbs, or who don’t use boosters. Why? It’d help the team out in general, so if they don’t use them, it’s selfish. Oh wait, that’s why: Most dungeons simply don’t require that much.

TL;DR: Magic Find in dungeons is useless. Outside of dungeons is open world PVE, and that’s laughable in comparison to dungeon difficulty. If I want to risk combat effectiveness (When I don’t need 100% balls-to-the-wall to tag enemies, kill standard PVE enemies, etc.) for better drops, I’m going to kitten well do it. I’m sorry people think MF in Dungeons is good, but it seems to me like MF is a non-issue everywhere except dungeons. (Where Magic Find shouldn’t really be used anyway.)

Furthermore, “Omg my CoF run is going to take 3 minutes longer because this kitten” seems like a “Who really cares” thing. Seems like a case of “Not operating at peak efficiency, kick.”

So basically…people who think MF is good in dungeons run it, the rest of the people, no matter his level of skill, see him as selfish because he’s trying to profit for himself. (OMG what? What blasphemy! Especially in my CoF speedrun to get myself money to buy MYSELF stuff.)

People make this MF kitten into a bigger thing than it needs to be. MF sucks in dungeons, that’s why I don’t run it in dungeons. But I sure as hell will run it everywhere else, and enjoy it, because I don’t need to be 100% all the time especially in open world PVE.

I say leave it in. It’s a choice between effectiveness and profit. The only problem is the 1/100 people that run MF in dungeons and somehow cause the whole thing to deteriorate. (But I could argue that people not using consumables slow it down too, but I guess that’s a different situation?)

Most dungeons don’t take “100%” anyway.

And no, I don’t predominantly run MF gear. Only in open world PVE, on classes that greatly benefit from it, and have lots of damage output.

This post made me laugh, just because I agree with all of it. Thanks for posting your honest point of view.

I also don’t use MF gear on Dungeons, but if someone else wants to use it, whatever, it’s his/her character, as long as he/she is a good teammate, it’s all fair. There are not that many people who use MF gear on Dungeons anyway-I know I rarely see them, and when I do, I realize it AFTER the Dungeon, and after having zero trouble completing it anyway. I do prefer my higher stats for Dungeons, because I don’t think sacrificing the stats in that situation is worth it for ME.

Of course the issue is not dungeons or open world PvE. The problem arises in “group” play. As such, the solution is to remove it from gear entirely. D3 is a good model for this. They tried shared MF and that just led to the opposite problem, "I invested in all this MF and other leeches now get to share it?. The only solution is to remove it from gear entirely. Anet will most likely copy D3 and institute something like their paragon levels where you gain MF simply by playing the game.

maddoctor.2738:

Star Ace.5207:

There are even ascended items with MF% stats. It’s not “wrong” nor evil, just a player’s personal choice, and I frankly doubt that most players are thinking about “gimping groups” when they acquire the stuff.

Then what are they thinking about? “Gimping groups for personal gain” is exactly what they are doing, why else would they use MF gear in a party setting?

I don’t care enough to find out, since I don’t like judging people’s character-even if they would do things that I wouldn’t personally.

My Warrior has 27% total non-boosted Magic Find, and I surely didn’t choose the stats to kitten ANYONE-I also use her well in every and all content I tackle. To call me selfish because of that is the more selfish act-especially since you have no idea who I am. Would you be jealous of me because of that paltry 27% MF%, if I had a precursor drop for me (which I know WON’T HAPPEN, anyway)? Why not try being happy for me instead, as I would were you in the same situation? I dare you call me selfish, and I will call you intolerant AND selfish for doing so.

No offense meant, but in general it’s not the polite thing to do to harshly judge people you know nothing about. The way we see things must not necessarily be the way others view things-it’s not as black or white as many would see it.

This proves is not that the player is necessarily “selfish”, but that others are some times being envious of him/her for he/she theoretically getting better drops with lesser stats then they do.

No, it’s selfish regardless of what the rest of the group thinks. It’s something that’s inherently selfish. As I said, it’s only NOT selfish when EVERY member of the group is wearing it, because in that case the group is choosing to be 40% less effective, and in exchange ALL of them are getting better loot. If even one member of the team is not using MF gear, then it becomes a matter of the group being 32% less effective, and that one member is getting zero benefit for that reduced effectiveness, so it’s still selfish of the rest of the group.

I noticed that you failed to answer my very simple question, " If MF gear is not inherently selfish, then how is YOUR MF stat benefiting anyone on your team who isn’t you."

And don’t worry, I wasn’t upset, I was just trying to explain why you were wrong as clearly as possible.

-Selfishness is not the problem (that’s a personal character issue-MF gear won’t make anyone “selfish” if he/she isn’t really selfish, nor will non-MF gear make anyone selfless if he/she is all about himself/herself at heart.)

-Stat loss over MF% IS the problem (it is what causes these types of useless debates in the first place, dividing the community)

Ok, wanting MF boosts, in a vaccuum, is not selfish., However, given the CURRENT options for raising your MF stat, which mostly involve a trade-off of other stats, mean that anyone wearing currently available MF gear is making a selfish choice in doing so. They may be great people otherwise, but this specific choice they are making is a selfish choice, regardless of any other choices they make in their lives.

I suppose it’s possible to wear MF gear and NOT be selfish, but that would require that they give at least 10% of the total value of their loot drops to each member of their group, so if they get 2 gold worth in extra loot over the course of a dungeon run, they would need to give each other member of the group at least 20s in compensation. I suppose if they did that it would balance the scales and no longer be selfish behavior, but to be honest I’ve never had that happen to me.

-For now, the simple solution is: play with those who agree with your points, don’t play with those who disagree with you. There’s no need to judge the character of those who would disagree with you-let them be “selfish” as you call them, but leave them in peace.

But as others have pointed out, there is not currently a way to do this. It’s impossible to tell whether another player is wearing MF gear, and earlier you resisted the idea of making this fact indelible.

End of thread. My apologies for stirring your emotions, I wasn’t intending to flame/troll you at all.

Not a problem, I just hope that you read all I said, and that you’re working to make your supposedly unselfish MFer friend a better citizen of the game by teaching him/her the error of his/her ways.

My Warrior has 27% total non-boosted Magic Find, and I surely didn’t choose the stats to kitten ANYONE-I also use her well in every and all content I tackle. To call me selfish because of that is the more selfish act-especially since you have no idea who I am.

Whether you are selfish or not overall, you are being selfish in having 27% magic find, instead of having several hundred points in other traits. You may be a generally selfless person, but if you are wearing magic find in a group situation, you have made at least one selfish choice, and that selfish choice is negatively impacting the rest of your group, while benefiting yourself.

Why not try being happy for me instead, as I would were you in the same situation?

He might be happy for you. I would certainly be happy for you, but that wouldn’t make you any less selfish for running using selfish armor instead of cooperative armor. It isn’t about what other people think of you, it’s about what you actually are.

Star Ace.5207:

The problem is that not all players care that much about all that math and efficiency numbers

Those that wear MF gear evidently do care. The whole idea of this gear is about efficiency and numbers. It’s just the efficiency geared purely towards yourself, not your group.

I run with the Ancient Karka Shell which has a 3% inherent magic find. I also have Lunaria, Circle of the Moon with an inherent 4% magic find. That is on 2 of my dungeon pieces. Oh my bad, I must be greedy and selfish to run dungeons with those pieces equipped! Can anyone tell me how less effective I am in a dungeon because of that 7% mf? I am good at math but I must be missing a decimal point or two to get people so wound up, right? How much MF am I allowed before you boot me from your group and call me selfish? 0%, 10%? How many minutes would I slow you down by having mf on those 2 pieces? If you allow those two pieces or other ascended gear with an inherent mf does that make you hypocritical or do you arbitrarily set a limit with each dungeon run? Perhaps you should tell me exactly what type of gear I should be running? Better yet, perhaps you should play my game for me! After all it seems that is what you are doing!

Seems a bit harsh doesn’t it? However calling people selfish because they want to enjoy a game their way (after all they did pay for it) is just as bad. I do not care if you want to run dungeons with no mf in the party, your choice, you paid for the game. What bothers me to no end is you feel you have the right to label people selfish and greedy because of your own personal desires.

By the way. when farming I swap those 2 pieces out out for 2 pieces with 7% mf each and with only my gear and 25 stacks of luck I run with 121% mf and can boost it to over 200%

Ohoni.6057:

It isn’t about what other people think of you, it’s about what you actually are.

Totally agree on this point-that’s why I don’t care if you think I am selfish for having a paltry 27% on my gear (basically, the Syzygy with MF Utility Infusion DESIGNED by ANet and Ancient Karka Shell with Ruby Jewel), because my friends-and more importantly, myself-know that I am not selfish in the least-same with another poster several posts above. I would do anything for in-game friends, and have given away Charged and Onyx lodestones to them-shows you how selfish I am, that 27% makes me so self-centered, loot-hungry, and evil right?

(Don’t want to be mean, just so you realize how ludicrous it all sounds.)

Trust me, I would never call you selfish no matter what gear you use. It’s not my place to do so, especially knowing 0% about you, and I find it to be the bigger sin, if indeed there’s a sin being committed in here.

We’ll never agree, but for me this isn’t just about “right” or “wrong”, “black” or “white.” At least we agree that the MF% exchange for a stat is a problem-I just don’t share the view that people must be “selfish” just because the game forced them to choose between loot or stats, due to its inherent design. I honestly doubt most players would want to intentionally kitten any group, or intentionally lower their stats were they given an option-but that option isn’t (currently) in the game, so it’s not a matter of personal character (though of course, there WILL BE selfish MF users, but that’s people, not gear.)

That guy with the MF gear might have been focused on solo PvE so far, and just now trying to join a CoF run to get some berserker gear, I’ll never know for sure, but I’m not going to judge.

Theftwind.8976:

I run with the Ancient Karka Shell which has a 3% inherent magic find. I also have Lunaria, Circle of the Moon with an inherent 4% magic find.

Celestial items serve a role that no other items in the game can provide even ignoring MF.

And all that doesn’t matter because we are talking about people that take stuff like Explorer’s sets when they could have chosen Berserker and just be objectively more useful to their group in every situations.

gfox.6501:

That guy with the MF gear might have been focused on solo PvE so far, and just now trying to join a CoF run to get some berserker gear, I’ll never know for sure, but I’m not going to judge.

Which is why the solution is just to average the MF stat for all players in a group. Simple and effective.

Astralporing.1957:

Star Ace.5207:

The problem is that not all players care that much about all that math and efficiency numbers

Those that wear MF gear evidently do care. The whole idea of this gear is about efficiency and numbers. It’s just the efficiency geared purely towards yourself, not your group.

As I said in an earlier post, I have 27% MF on my Warrior-shows you how much I care about my loot drop “efficiency”. :P That percentage is so low it won’t help at all unless heavily boosted by consumables/banners.

I do min/max in a way that suits my playstyle, though; just not necessarily for “max DPS” or max this or the other. I spent hours theorycrafting my Warrior, not following popular conventions, but rather, whatever suited her character concept (I.E. I care about her stats as a whole, wanting to both have fun and for her to do well but not necessarily about “maximum efficiency”.)

stof.9341:

Theftwind.8976:

I run with the Ancient Karka Shell which has a 3% inherent magic find. I also have Lunaria, Circle of the Moon with an inherent 4% magic find.

Celestial items serve a role that no other items in the game can provide even ignoring MF.

And all that doesn’t matter because we are talking about people that take stuff like Explorer’s sets when they could have chosen Berserker and just be objectively more useful to their group in every situations.

gfox.6501:

That guy with the MF gear might have been focused on solo PvE so far, and just now trying to join a CoF run to get some berserker gear, I’ll never know for sure, but I’m not going to judge.

Which is why the solution is just to average the MF stat for all players in a group. Simple and effective.

I don’t care how they fix MF, I just don’t equate MF=selfish player.

It’s equally selfish to require people to conform into certain specs. If you’re being totally selfless, you’d invite all the noobs , fresh 80s and folks in mish mash rare gear, and help them, instead.

Star Ace.5207:

Astralporing.1957:

Star Ace.5207:

The problem is that not all players care that much about all that math and efficiency numbers

Those that wear MF gear evidently do care. The whole idea of this gear is about efficiency and numbers. It’s just the efficiency geared purely towards yourself, not your group.

As I said in an earlier post, I have 27% MF on my Warrior-shows you how much I care about my loot drop “efficiency”. :P That percentage is so low it won’t help at all unless heavily boosted by consumables/banners.

I don’t judge people that are wearing a bit of MF because that’s the only exotic/rare piece they have. I do judge people that are running in full-MF sets. They obviously know what they are doing and care a lot about their drop efficiency. They also know well enough how it impacts others – they just dont care about that.

Star Ace.5207:

Totally agree on this point-that’s why I don’t care if you think I am selfish for having a paltry 27% on my gear (basically, the Syzygy with MF Utility Infusion DESIGNED by ANet and Ancient Karka Shell with Ruby Jewel), because my friends-and more importantly, myself-know that I am not selfish in the least-same with another poster several posts above. I would do anything for in-game friends, and have given away Charged and Onyx lodestones to them-shows you how selfish I am, that 27% makes me so self-centered, loot-hungry, and evil right?

I don’t think this whole anti-MF debate is about people who are using:

A) MF Infusions – the infusion system is a great system for adding MF/Gold/Karma bonuses to the game
B) Items that increase all stats including MF

In the above cases you are not sacrificing groups stats for MF, MF comes as an added bonus, as it should have always been and exactly what Anet wants to do with it – hint: the Utility Infusions are a great step to the right direction.

To quote Colin himself:

It’s not a choice that’s great for game play and there isn’t really anything that fun about it, even more so when group composition is taken into account. Ideally we’d also like to keep the ability to slowly build your magic find over time, but doing this at the cost of using better stats isn’t the right way to do that.

The “problem” with MF gear and when it becomes “bad” is when you using MF at the cost of better stats, as Colin himself states, they want to fix this and they SHOULD fix this, there is no arguing about it. It’s terrible design plain and simple and everyone should agree with this, fortunately the devs do.

One other thing, I only call Selfish those who deliberately choose to use MF over more useful stats, for pure personal benefit while offering less to the group, that’s pure selfishness, you put yourself above the group. It doesn’t matter how you live your personal life, and how much you help your friends and guildies, for those randoms you group with, while using full MF gear, you are being selfish at them, there is no denying this.

Maybe I should’ve made that distinction to avoid confusion… The Full Explorer with Noble Runes IS Selfish, the one using the “all stat” gear is not, he is using all the stats for the benefit of his build, MF is an added bonus, Explorer users aren’t using the extra stat at all, to benefit the team, only for personal gain so they are being selfish.

Finally, I regularly see posted Berserker as the alternative to Explorer, but I must add that Cavalier, Valkyrie, Rampager and other stat combinations offer better DAMAGE (while also offering other stats like Toughness/Vitality/Condition Damage/Healing) than Explorer. It’s not an issue of “run Berserker instead of Explorer”, that’s false. Many many gear combinations are far superior to Explorer in terms of DPS while also offering more than just damage.