Guild Wars 2

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

Please excuse any rudeness, perceived or otherwise. I have a bit of a migraine, so it’s not intentional, I promise!

I’m also going to be as brief as possible. Frankly, I’m sick of being told what to do, by devs who say this tactic is suitable because some people on high pop servers enjoyed being “encouraged” to join WvW, and by WvWers who insist that it’s simple enough to follow a zerg and get what I need. Devona’s Rest doesn’t have zergs. We have militias. Nor can I take my guild of largely newbies to the game and expect to have any more success. I don’t belong to a large guild—in fact I run my own for people still learning the game. It isn’t as simple as you all are pretending it is. Maybe on Tarnished Coast this is little more than another challenge on the path to glory, but on DR it’s a hellish experience of either getting steamrolled by a group of people glitching through the gates because there’s so many of them, or waiting months or even years for DR to actually take something I need. Yeah, that sounds like a whoooole lot of fun, guys. I think I’ll go do that right now.

I’m also sick of the argument that suggests that PvEers should suck it up because WvWers have to do a great deal of PvE. Seriously? That’s just insulting. And hypocritical to boot. The same people who say skritt like this are the people who berate PvEers because they aren’t being coerced. Well who’s coercing you into doing PvE? No one said you had to level characters or do jumping puzzles or complete the explorer achievements. You’re scaled to 80 in both PvP and WvW, so you can just go and do that without doing anything else. You see how ridiculous that sounds? We feel the same way. But you know why it’s different? Because WvW and PvP aren’t huge parts of GW 2! You can play the game without even setting foot there! However, as a game that is obviously mostly PvE, that part is at least a little bit required. So yeah, the fact that one of the achievements we look forward to getting on our own like the other 95% kind of ticks us off.

Thank you. Fellow DR here and I’m in the exact same boat. Everyone thinks “oh just join the zerg.” Come down here to the bottom of the leaderboards where there isn’t a zerg. It’s not that easy. Saying “I did it so you can do it to” is like saying I’ve never been to the moon, so no ones ever been to the moon. That argument is anecdotal and does not provide and real proof or contribution.

ixiduffixi.6384:

AntiGw.9367:

You don’t naturally deserve map completion, you don’t naturally deserve a legendary.

Those things have a high difficulty attached to them. They are restricted to only a few players that can fulfill the requirements and are willing to put in a lot of effort. One of the requirements is having enough patience to sit through several WvW cycles.

That’s intentional, it’s good design, it works fine.

It’s completely narrow minded posts like that this that get tiresome to read. Why should I be restricted from something I would like to work for, simply because I don’t like one particular aspect of the game? Why should I also be hindered because my server can’t muster the numbers to spare so I can capture a few out of the way keeps/towers? Also sit through several cycles? I’ve been sitting for months now. I need green side map completion and it’s never going to happen because of the ridiculous way they made the colors score exclusive. I have put in a quite a bit of work for my rewards. I did all of the mundane heart quests, visited all of the out of the way POIs in Lanar’s, grabbed all of the points and SPs in Orr. Why should we then have to rely on the cooperation of hundreds of other players for one personal reward. The system is not fine. It’s broken. If it was “fine” there wouldn’t so many complaints about it.

Mundane heart quests are not considered to be enough for prestige items like legendaries. You want to be rewarded top dollar for doing things that require no real effort.

Transfer to a different server if you really can’t rally your own, then transfer back. What, you also want to get the legendary without paying the gold for it?

AntiGw.9367:

ixiduffixi.6384:

AntiGw.9367:

You don’t naturally deserve map completion, you don’t naturally deserve a legendary.

Those things have a high difficulty attached to them. They are restricted to only a few players that can fulfill the requirements and are willing to put in a lot of effort. One of the requirements is having enough patience to sit through several WvW cycles.

That’s intentional, it’s good design, it works fine.

It’s completely narrow minded posts like that this that get tiresome to read. Why should I be restricted from something I would like to work for, simply because I don’t like one particular aspect of the game? Why should I also be hindered because my server can’t muster the numbers to spare so I can capture a few out of the way keeps/towers? Also sit through several cycles? I’ve been sitting for months now. I need green side map completion and it’s never going to happen because of the ridiculous way they made the colors score exclusive. I have put in a quite a bit of work for my rewards. I did all of the mundane heart quests, visited all of the out of the way POIs in Lanar’s, grabbed all of the points and SPs in Orr. Why should we then have to rely on the cooperation of hundreds of other players for one personal reward. The system is not fine. It’s broken. If it was “fine” there wouldn’t so many complaints about it.

Mundane heart quests are not considered to be enough for prestige items like legendaries. You want to be rewarded top dollar for doing things that require no real effort.

Transfer to a different server if you really can’t rally your own, then transfer back. What, you also want to get the legendary without paying the gold for it?

On the contrary: I’m actually working towards buying my legendary at the moment. I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear when I said “I don’t expect anyone to hand me my legendary or my map completion”. Let me rephrase:

I would gladly rally and regroup as many times as necessary, but I think you’re missing the point. I can do this until my character is sick from teleporting so much, but at the end of the day, there’s no way I’m making it into some of those keeps in this lifetime unless I want to maybe try to wave around or beg the 25 people chomping at the bit to kill me for some points to let me through. You must not be on a low pop server to assume that rallying and teleporting is even a viable option. Of course, you must also have a ton of money to assume that changing servers is even a viable option.

Besides all that, who says the only way map completion is challenging enough to warrant deserving a legendary has to be in WvW? Southsun Cove exists. And I’m sorry, but map completion isn’t the only thing you need to do for a legendary, it’s only one very small piece. It’s not like I can get 100% on the map and get a message that says “Congratulations! You’re awesome, so here’s a free Kudzu!”

AntiGw.9367:

ixiduffixi.6384:

AntiGw.9367:

You don’t naturally deserve map completion, you don’t naturally deserve a legendary.

Those things have a high difficulty attached to them. They are restricted to only a few players that can fulfill the requirements and are willing to put in a lot of effort. One of the requirements is having enough patience to sit through several WvW cycles.

That’s intentional, it’s good design, it works fine.

It’s completely narrow minded posts like that this that get tiresome to read. Why should I be restricted from something I would like to work for, simply because I don’t like one particular aspect of the game? Why should I also be hindered because my server can’t muster the numbers to spare so I can capture a few out of the way keeps/towers? Also sit through several cycles? I’ve been sitting for months now. I need green side map completion and it’s never going to happen because of the ridiculous way they made the colors score exclusive. I have put in a quite a bit of work for my rewards. I did all of the mundane heart quests, visited all of the out of the way POIs in Lanar’s, grabbed all of the points and SPs in Orr. Why should we then have to rely on the cooperation of hundreds of other players for one personal reward. The system is not fine. It’s broken. If it was “fine” there wouldn’t so many complaints about it.

Mundane heart quests are not considered to be enough for prestige items like legendaries. You want to be rewarded top dollar for doing things that require no real effort.

Transfer to a different server if you really can’t rally your own, then transfer back. What, you also want to get the legendary without paying the gold for it?

Again, narrow minded arguments, and terrible ones at that. Now you’re stating that I should have to spend real world money because of a terrible design choice.

I have different feeling about WvW map completion. I had map completion on 10 characters now (deleted 2 of them). When I discovered I need WvW maps for completion I was mad. Still I did it and what I got from it:
1. You should understand that you are getting Gift of Exploration for legendary, it’s not just a title. WvW is one of the major activity required for this (you also need Gift of Battle).
2. I really liked WvW. Never was a PvP player, but this activity is nice if you have a good guild and server. That time it wasn’t that zerg oriented though.

ANET can probably fix this for players who really hate WvW as they did with Gift of Battle (buy it for badges from achiev chest and you are good). Add an option to enter WvW as a guest (no enemies for you but you cannot see ppl from normal mode to avoid spying) or remove it from map completion. Removing is probably better cause there will be no challenge from the first option so why even bother.

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

AntiGw.9367:

ixiduffixi.6384:

AntiGw.9367:

You don’t naturally deserve map completion, you don’t naturally deserve a legendary.

Those things have a high difficulty attached to them. They are restricted to only a few players that can fulfill the requirements and are willing to put in a lot of effort. One of the requirements is having enough patience to sit through several WvW cycles.

That’s intentional, it’s good design, it works fine.

It’s completely narrow minded posts like that this that get tiresome to read. Why should I be restricted from something I would like to work for, simply because I don’t like one particular aspect of the game? Why should I also be hindered because my server can’t muster the numbers to spare so I can capture a few out of the way keeps/towers? Also sit through several cycles? I’ve been sitting for months now. I need green side map completion and it’s never going to happen because of the ridiculous way they made the colors score exclusive. I have put in a quite a bit of work for my rewards. I did all of the mundane heart quests, visited all of the out of the way POIs in Lanar’s, grabbed all of the points and SPs in Orr. Why should we then have to rely on the cooperation of hundreds of other players for one personal reward. The system is not fine. It’s broken. If it was “fine” there wouldn’t so many complaints about it.

Mundane heart quests are not considered to be enough for prestige items like legendaries. You want to be rewarded top dollar for doing things that require no real effort.

Transfer to a different server if you really can’t rally your own, then transfer back. What, you also want to get the legendary without paying the gold for it?

On the contrary: I’m actually working towards buying my legendary at the moment. I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear when I said “I don’t expect anyone to hand me my legendary or my map completion”. Let me rephrase:

I would gladly rally and regroup as many times as necessary, but I think you’re missing the point. I can do this until my character is sick from teleporting so much, but at the end of the day, there’s no way I’m making it into some of those keeps in this lifetime unless I want to maybe try to wave around or beg the 25 people chomping at the bit to kill me for some points to let me through. You must not be on a low pop server to assume that rallying and teleporting is even a viable option. Of course, you must also have a ton of money to assume that changing servers is even a viable option.

Besides all that, who says the only way map completion is challenging enough to warrant deserving a legendary has to be in WvW? Southsun Cove exists. And I’m sorry, but map completion isn’t the only thing you need to do for a legendary, it’s only one very small piece. It’s not like I can get 100% on the map and get a message that says “Congratulations! You’re awesome, so here’s a free Kudzu!”

If you are working towards buying it, why are you here complaining about the WvW requirement? Buying them is permitted specifically for players like yourself who can’t make one themselves.

My server has been in many tiers, from top to bottom. Rallying is definitely a viable option (as shown by some dedicated members of my community). Changing colors is the least of the things that you can accomplish with your low pop.

AntiGw.9367:

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

AntiGw.9367:

ixiduffixi.6384:

AntiGw.9367:

You don’t naturally deserve map completion, you don’t naturally deserve a legendary.

Those things have a high difficulty attached to them. They are restricted to only a few players that can fulfill the requirements and are willing to put in a lot of effort. One of the requirements is having enough patience to sit through several WvW cycles.

That’s intentional, it’s good design, it works fine.

It’s completely narrow minded posts like that this that get tiresome to read. Why should I be restricted from something I would like to work for, simply because I don’t like one particular aspect of the game? Why should I also be hindered because my server can’t muster the numbers to spare so I can capture a few out of the way keeps/towers? Also sit through several cycles? I’ve been sitting for months now. I need green side map completion and it’s never going to happen because of the ridiculous way they made the colors score exclusive. I have put in a quite a bit of work for my rewards. I did all of the mundane heart quests, visited all of the out of the way POIs in Lanar’s, grabbed all of the points and SPs in Orr. Why should we then have to rely on the cooperation of hundreds of other players for one personal reward. The system is not fine. It’s broken. If it was “fine” there wouldn’t so many complaints about it.

Mundane heart quests are not considered to be enough for prestige items like legendaries. You want to be rewarded top dollar for doing things that require no real effort.

Transfer to a different server if you really can’t rally your own, then transfer back. What, you also want to get the legendary without paying the gold for it?

On the contrary: I’m actually working towards buying my legendary at the moment. I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear when I said “I don’t expect anyone to hand me my legendary or my map completion”. Let me rephrase:

I would gladly rally and regroup as many times as necessary, but I think you’re missing the point. I can do this until my character is sick from teleporting so much, but at the end of the day, there’s no way I’m making it into some of those keeps in this lifetime unless I want to maybe try to wave around or beg the 25 people chomping at the bit to kill me for some points to let me through. You must not be on a low pop server to assume that rallying and teleporting is even a viable option. Of course, you must also have a ton of money to assume that changing servers is even a viable option.

Besides all that, who says the only way map completion is challenging enough to warrant deserving a legendary has to be in WvW? Southsun Cove exists. And I’m sorry, but map completion isn’t the only thing you need to do for a legendary, it’s only one very small piece. It’s not like I can get 100% on the map and get a message that says “Congratulations! You’re awesome, so here’s a free Kudzu!”

If you are working towards buying it, why are you here complaining about the WvW requirement? Buying them is permitted specifically for players like yourself who can’t make one themselves.

My server has been in many tiers, from top to bottom. Rallying is definitely a viable option (as shown by some dedicated members of my community). Changing colors is the least of the things that you can accomplish with your low pop.

I’m sorry, “permitted”? As far as I know, I paid my $60, I’m permitted to do whatever I want in this game. And like I said previously in another reply, had you cared to read, I may very well try my hand at getting WvW completion one day. The problem is, people are viewing map completion as some grand right of passage into the mystical path of wonder that is WvW when I see more challenge in traversing Orr than I do in joining some huge mob of people destroying everything while “locating” a map that’s already been discovered for me. That’s not a challenge. Fighting Lupicus the way he’s intended (no zerker zerg) is a challenge. Soloing your first champ is a challenge. And to be fair, WvW can be challenging, I’m not saying it’s entirely simple. But what you and a lot of people don’t get is that a challenge of the magnitude people want for a legendary doesn’t have to be in WvW. You’re acting like anyone who doesn’t want to do it or can’t or don’t care aren’t worthy to get the achievement and that’s terribly closed-minded and conceited.

To answer your question though, I just care about it. Map completion is fun, and I find it challenging to venture into some of the higher level areas. I dislike that that sense of achievement is degraded in WvW to hoping for a zerg and if not, taking off all your armor so it doesn’t break and trying again and again to avoid the same 20 people.

This is what our WvW map looks like right now. So, yeah, joining the “zerg” isn’t going to help in the least. http://imgur.com/Kerb1Fo

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

I’m sorry, “permitted”? As far as I know, I paid my $60, I’m permitted to do whatever I want in this game. And like I said previously in another reply, had you cared to read, I may very well try my hand at getting WvW completion one day. The problem is, people are viewing map completion as some grand right of passage into the mystical path of wonder that is WvW when I see more challenge in traversing Orr than I do in joining some huge mob of people destroying everything while “locating” a map that’s already been discovered for me. That’s not a challenge. Fighting Lupicus the way he’s intended (no zerker zerg) is a challenge. Soloing your first champ is a challenge. And to be fair, WvW can be challenging, I’m not saying it’s entirely simple. But what you and a lot of people don’t get is that a challenge of the magnitude people want for a legendary doesn’t have to be in WvW. You’re acting like anyone who doesn’t want to do it or can’t or don’t care aren’t worthy to get the achievement and that’s terribly closed-minded and conceited.

To answer your question though, I just care about it. Map completion is fun, and I find it challenging to venture into some of the higher level areas. I dislike that that sense of achievement is degraded in WvW to hoping for a zerg and if not, taking off all your armor so it doesn’t break and trying again and again to avoid the same 20 people.

Yes, permitted. They could have easily been account-bound on crafting. Legendaries are reserved for the few people that put in the extra effort.

Reality check, legendaries should go to the most deserving players. Who is more deserving? Players whose highest achievement is running up to a PoI in an unchallenging environment? Or players that can also excel in the competitive scene?

AntiGw.9367:

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

I’m sorry, “permitted”? As far as I know, I paid my $60, I’m permitted to do whatever I want in this game. And like I said previously in another reply, had you cared to read, I may very well try my hand at getting WvW completion one day. The problem is, people are viewing map completion as some grand right of passage into the mystical path of wonder that is WvW when I see more challenge in traversing Orr than I do in joining some huge mob of people destroying everything while “locating” a map that’s already been discovered for me. That’s not a challenge. Fighting Lupicus the way he’s intended (no zerker zerg) is a challenge. Soloing your first champ is a challenge. And to be fair, WvW can be challenging, I’m not saying it’s entirely simple. But what you and a lot of people don’t get is that a challenge of the magnitude people want for a legendary doesn’t have to be in WvW. You’re acting like anyone who doesn’t want to do it or can’t or don’t care aren’t worthy to get the achievement and that’s terribly closed-minded and conceited.

To answer your question though, I just care about it. Map completion is fun, and I find it challenging to venture into some of the higher level areas. I dislike that that sense of achievement is degraded in WvW to hoping for a zerg and if not, taking off all your armor so it doesn’t break and trying again and again to avoid the same 20 people.

Yes, permitted. They could have easily been account-bound on crafting. Legendaries are reserved for the few people that put in the extra effort.

Reality check, legendaries should go to the most deserving players. Who is more deserving? Players whose highest achievement is running up to a PoI in an unchallenging environment? Or players that can also excel in the competitive scene?

No, sorry, that doesn’t work. Once again, you’re taking the conceited approach. I see no challenge in what your WvW is. Joining a giant group of people and rushing at the enemy is not much of a challenge. Having everything mapped out for you leaving you to run around and connect the dots isn’t a challenge. Granted, much of PvE map completion isn’t a challenge either. To be honest, I see a lot of it as a way to level and orient new players. But that’s why I wish it was better. I want to see more challenges in the overworld, and showing me all the shiny waypoints, vistas, and POIs in WvW doesn’t bring that any closer. Besides that, I just don’t get why you don’t see the flaw in this system on low pop servers. No matter how many times you rally and try again, people are literally crammed against a gate waiting to kill you. There IS no getting inside anything.

You know, maybe this is off topic a little, but with how you’re acting, let me tell you my thoughts on what a REAL achievement for a legendary would be. It wouldn’t be running around a map doing random tasks, that would be a separate achievement. To get your legendary, you would need to do a series of quests to get it, and not hearts, honest to goodness, dungeon-like quests all by yourself and gather the components you need—maybe the pieces of the weapon or something. Then you have to gather crafting materials to make up gifts. This way the legendary isn’t handed to you, it’s truly earned, and not by some tasks that become routine after a while.

AntiGw.9367:

TheNinjaCupcake.3465:

I’m sorry, “permitted”? As far as I know, I paid my $60, I’m permitted to do whatever I want in this game. And like I said previously in another reply, had you cared to read, I may very well try my hand at getting WvW completion one day. The problem is, people are viewing map completion as some grand right of passage into the mystical path of wonder that is WvW when I see more challenge in traversing Orr than I do in joining some huge mob of people destroying everything while “locating” a map that’s already been discovered for me. That’s not a challenge. Fighting Lupicus the way he’s intended (no zerker zerg) is a challenge. Soloing your first champ is a challenge. And to be fair, WvW can be challenging, I’m not saying it’s entirely simple. But what you and a lot of people don’t get is that a challenge of the magnitude people want for a legendary doesn’t have to be in WvW. You’re acting like anyone who doesn’t want to do it or can’t or don’t care aren’t worthy to get the achievement and that’s terribly closed-minded and conceited.

To answer your question though, I just care about it. Map completion is fun, and I find it challenging to venture into some of the higher level areas. I dislike that that sense of achievement is degraded in WvW to hoping for a zerg and if not, taking off all your armor so it doesn’t break and trying again and again to avoid the same 20 people.

Yes, permitted. They could have easily been account-bound on crafting. Legendaries are reserved for the few people that put in the extra effort.

Reality check, legendaries should go to the most deserving players. Who is more deserving? Players whose highest achievement is running up to a PoI in an unchallenging environment? Or players that can also excel in the competitive scene?

It’s elitist mentality like that driving people away from WvW also. No I don’t think only the PvPers should be allowed full access to a product. We spent the same amount of money on it, just because YOU play one way and I play another doesn’t make you any more worthy of a reward. Look at how WoW (yes WoW) did their legendaries. It was a group effort but not on the scale of WvW. Now I’m not saying all legendaries should only be obtainable in PvE, but rather it should accessible from both sides. Why not remove the map completion requirement and replace it with an item that can be obtained either through WvW/PvP or PvE. Not forcing us to do both in situations where the largest population of WvWers is not even enough to create an overflow.

A legendary weapon currently requires you to be relatively versed in the game. This means PvE to reveal all those maps; one or more dungeons run repeatedly to earn those badges; WvW to get that map reveal.

I believe ANet had the common sense not to ask players to go PvP because it’s pretty much a like/dislike thing. Yes WvW is PvP but it doesn’t have to be. As long as you don’t start taking out guards and camps and stay away from the action, you can get a lot of the POIs, Vistas and the limited Skill Point areas. Then there’s always going with the crowd, zerging the areas you don’t have, just don’t be in the front lines.

Behellagh.1468:

A legendary weapon currently requires you to be relatively versed in the game. This means PvE to reveal all those maps; one or more dungeons run repeatedly to earn those badges; WvW to get that map reveal.

I believe ANet had the common sense not to ask players to go PvP because it’s pretty much a like/dislike thing. Yes WvW is PvP but it doesn’t have to be. As long as you don’t start taking out guards and camps and stay away from the action, you can get a lot of the POIs, Vistas and the limited Skill Point areas. Then there’s always going with the crowd, zerging the areas you don’t have, just don’t be in the front lines.

Again, this isn’t true in all cases. This isn’t viable for some servers. There is NOT always a zerg going. And no, I have not been able to get any POIs or Vistas by staying out of the action. This statement is just, untrue.

Then you are doing it wrong or your server simply doesn’t choose to participate in which case my condolences. At the very least you should be able to get the POIs etc your server controlled area and since that rotates every so often you should be able to secure 80% of what you need within 4-6 weeks.

I’ve single-handedly stormed the area behind the keep in the other server areas just to get the Vista on top of the house, only to die moments later. But I get the Vista. Be bold, be sneaky, zoom out to see if the coast is clear of opposing players and accept you will be repeatedly defeated. If getting a Legendary was easy everyone would have one.

Exploration should not contain WvW. There’s really no “exploration” done; it’s not like the map isn’t revealed to you anyways and there aren’t any difficult vistas or anything. It’s mostly just busy work and hope you can either draw the right color or nightcap stuff. This is the only gameplay factor that’s out of the player’s control to an unreasonable extend. You could guest on other servers for difficult wps or whatnot; but you can’t do this for wvw unless you pay quite a bit.

I don’t see how it adds anything to gameplay. At least with hearts and crap you’re interacting with the world. Do you even get a letter for completing wvw maps?

And yes, I have completed all 4 maps just by virtue of being a wvw player. And the chests were awful. How about this? Just allow dem pve’ers to not have to do wvw for map completion and give the people that did the completion and wasted their time on it an extra reward chest retroactively?

Well, I don’t really care much about map completion but I would definitely say it doesn’t really add anything and if removed, I don’t see much negative effects either.

Well, since I had gotten all the WvW maps complete before I even hit 50% World Completion I guess I am not on the same page as the OP here. What really bugged me was when I thought I was done, had everything on every map including WvW and it was only 99%! Had to google and find the few “hidden” spots that I had missed that you can’t see from the Map view. Now that was frustrating!

A lot of people seem to be really afraid of the WvW maps, talking about how hard it is. For me, the Gifts of Exploration and of Battle are the only parts of my Legendaries I even have yet. Or will have for some time still.

ixiduffixi.6384:

It’s elitist mentality like that driving people away from WvW also. No I don’t think only the PvPers should be allowed full access to a product. We spent the same amount of money on it, just because YOU play one way and I play another doesn’t make you any more worthy of a reward. Look at how WoW (yes WoW) did their legendaries. It was a group effort but not on the scale of WvW. Now I’m not saying all legendaries should only be obtainable in PvE, but rather it should accessible from both sides. Why not remove the map completion requirement and replace it with an item that can be obtained either through WvW/PvP or PvE. Not forcing us to do both in situations where the largest population of WvWers is not even enough to create an overflow.

You are allowed full access to everything in the game, just like everyone else. WvW is not the only way to get a legendary, you can buy one on TP.

Behellagh.1468:

Then you are doing it wrong or your server simply doesn’t choose to participate in which case my condolences. At the very least you should be able to get the POIs etc your server controlled area and since that rotates every so often you should be able to secure 80% of what you need within 4-6 weeks.

I’ve single-handedly stormed the area behind the keep in the other server areas just to get the Vista on top of the house, only to die moments later. But I get the Vista. Be bold, be sneaky, zoom out to see if the coast is clear of opposing players and accept you will be repeatedly defeated. If getting a Legendary was easy everyone would have one.

I’ve been holding out for over two months and all I’ve been is blue or red. Green is for the top scoring server so that’s never going to happen. As far as sneaking in, I’m on my Warr and there’s no way to sneak into it. Besides, it shouldn’t be like this. We shouldn’t have to sneak around just to grab a vista or a poi, its a ridiculously glaring design flaw whether Anet wants to admit it or not.

AntiGw.9367:

ixiduffixi.6384:

It’s elitist mentality like that driving people away from WvW also. No I don’t think only the PvPers should be allowed full access to a product. We spent the same amount of money on it, just because YOU play one way and I play another doesn’t make you any more worthy of a reward. Look at how WoW (yes WoW) did their legendaries. It was a group effort but not on the scale of WvW. Now I’m not saying all legendaries should only be obtainable in PvE, but rather it should accessible from both sides. Why not remove the map completion requirement and replace it with an item that can be obtained either through WvW/PvP or PvE. Not forcing us to do both in situations where the largest population of WvWers is not even enough to create an overflow.

You are allowed full access to everything in the game, just like everyone else. WvW is not the only way to get a legendary, you can buy one on TP.

Yeah, because those prices aren’t inflated at all.

AntiGw.9367:

ixiduffixi.6384:

AntiGw.9367:

ixiduffixi.6384:

It’s elitist mentality like that driving people away from WvW also. No I don’t think only the PvPers should be allowed full access to a product. We spent the same amount of money on it, just because YOU play one way and I play another doesn’t make you any more worthy of a reward. Look at how WoW (yes WoW) did their legendaries. It was a group effort but not on the scale of WvW. Now I’m not saying all legendaries should only be obtainable in PvE, but rather it should accessible from both sides. Why not remove the map completion requirement and replace it with an item that can be obtained either through WvW/PvP or PvE. Not forcing us to do both in situations where the largest population of WvWers is not even enough to create an overflow.

You are allowed full access to everything in the game, just like everyone else. WvW is not the only way to get a legendary, you can buy one on TP.

Yeah, because those prices aren’t inflated at all.

Excuses, excuses, difficult rules shouldn’t apply to me, excuses.

I’m beginning to wonder if you honestly believe what you say or aren’t just a troll.

Map Completion shows that you mastered the map, so to speak. So if you’re unable to do all three Borderlands, and EBG, then you can’t get your shiny medal.

Working as intended.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Map Completion shows that you mastered the map, so to speak. So if you’re unable to do all three Borderlands, and EBG, then you can’t get your shiny medal.

Working as intended.

Shows that “you” mastered that map. WvW isn’t a solo experience, so again this argument doesn’t apply. You can’t keep arguing that it’s something doable solo, it isn’t. Maybe if you are on a larger server with high WvW population, then you yourself can jump in and chase a zerg. But, I don’t know how many times it has to be explained, not all servers have large groups of players zerging around. Come up with a better argument already.

When I press ‘M’ to look a map I don’t see any Borderlands, because they are not directly part of Tyria.

It’s really bad idea to mix PvE and WvW together under one achievement. 95% of personal achievement is in player’s hands, but the rest 5% depends on the cooperation and work of “whole” server.

I’m on server which is bad, but not the worst and when I look at the map, we have still the same Borderland as home and I don’t see any rotation for us.

I’ve never played PvP, because I don’t like it and WvW is PvP no matter what devs are trying to say. I was there several times just to finish my achievement and I didn’t see anyone to take care about regular mobs. Everybody only tried to attack other players or camps, towers etc.

I’m going there only when our server is close to domination of the map, but it also means that our guys are going away and the enemies are going to take their land back. Once I was on some rock to see vista and nobody was visible around. When it ended I was surrounded by 12 enemies and they all killed me – not 2-3 at once, but all 12 – how epic fight it had to be for them :/.

I understand that WvW could be fun for many players, but I really don’t enjoy either I loss the fight with opposing player or I win. I have it probably half ad half. I’m PvE player and I don’t have build for WvW or PvP and I don’t have such speed reaction for it.

There could be one solution – not the best for players who don’t like PvP but still more suitable for them and for devs. The problem for me is that I don’t want to meet opposing players because they don’t know I’m here only to take free PoI or Vista and not to fight. Rift has settings in option to disable or enable PvP. If something like this would be correctly implemented here it could be good. Player could set the setting to be protected from PvP attack in WvW. This player would have different name color so everybody would know they can’t kill him, but he could not attack any players or to siege any structure. Such player would be only guest on the map and he would be able to get only free PoIs or Vistas or such under control of his server which would not be under attack. He could be attacking only regular mobs. Possibility to change the status would be only in the base camp on the map.

It would be also interesting to add new achievements for those who explored all Borderlands – bronze star, complete regular maps – silver star. No title needed.

I did it twice, soloing. First time took forever but a lot of that had to do with a jumping puzzle to a vista and the fact we were Green for 3 months (this was before they started to rotate). The next time was much quicker when I looked one evening and noticed we controlled 90% of the map and the score was horribly lopsided in my server’s favor. This meant the other servers didn’t have people out in force and it only took me a day or two to get everything.

I’m still sick of hearing this argument.

Look. Nothing you get from world completion is necessary to play any part of the game. If you don’t like the requirements for it, then skip it.

It’s a star over your head and a part of an overpriced shiny doodad. Those who want shiny doodads must be willing to do what it takes to earn said shiny doodads. If you don’t like the requirements for world completion… then why are you trying to get it?

I don’t like sPvP Occasionally I’ll play a match or two, but I find closed match fomat in this game stale and boring. This, I’m not really interested in Pvp dailies, monthlies, titles, etc.

Similarly, I have a few people in m,y guild who have no interest in ever setting foot in WvW. Those people essentially decided they didn’t need the WvW armor skins (until they were handed out for basically free via achievement chests) or world completion bits.

You have the option of a great many kinds of rewards in this game. The PvE Purist has a larger and more reliable selection of rewards than the WvW or sPvP purist. If you don’t want to do the content, then make peace with not getting the reward.

This isn’t an elitist viewpoint. It’s a realist viewpoint. By virtue that something exists does not necessarily mean you are intended to acquire it. If you want it THAT BADLY then you’ll probably do what it takes. Otherwise you really are speaking from a sense of entitlement. You want the shiny, but you think your special circumstances make you exempt from the rules everyone else had to put up with to acquire it.

You are not a special snowflake. You are not the only person on a low rank server to have wanted world completion. You are not the only person in GW2 who has played content that wasn’t their favorite just to get some reward they really wanted.

I think the use of incentives to get people to explore different parts of the game, and making that coveted legendary essentially require it is a solid one. It’s the same method by which players are encouraged to find all the enchanting little nooks and crannies of the PvE universe. If it ticks off a few people who think that there should be some unwritten rule that all content should exist in a predefined type-bubble so be it. I’d rather let go of someone with that disposition and keep the guy who just lets it go than the other way around.

If it’s not on the map, it shouldn’t count. The Mists (where the wubwub is) isn’t on the map, it shouldn’t count. Same reason dungeon POI/waypoints don’t count and the Heart of the Mists doesn’t count.

Southsun should count, but inexplicably doesn’t because reasons.

If I will really want to have this achievement and it will have these condition I will do that (2 borderlands complete, 2 partly). I have just wrote the possibility to do it another way. The problem is that there is mixed different playing style and your personal effort with effort of other players. When you read the advices to go there when your server has the control or go there at night so it is ok? Is it what devs meant by this achievement? What is the difference to be guest in prime time or hero on empty map? None. Such player will not fight and help to the others to get the map under control. Then the title should be only Been There. When I was on WvW for the first time (after I finished all normal maps and I found that I need also these = huge disappointment) I was lucky to find the zerg group and I’ve done the whole map at once. I know it is possible, but after this experience and such advices I really don’t know what is this title saying about your participation on WvW. For many players it means Been at the right time in the right place on the right server.

Raeysa Penrose.8450:

Coltz.5617:

I agree with the OP I feel the sameway too . They really should make WvW a seperate entity than PvE.

I’m sorry to break it to you, but Anet has stated multiple times that their goal is to bring the playerbase together; more than likely, they’re going to try to encourage more overlap between PvE and PvP/WvW rather than less.

They should use more carrot and less stick then. The methods they use are really heavy-handed, and often have the opposite effect (see obsidian sanctum aether chest/kite incident, with all the gankfest that got attached to it).

Astralporing.1957:

They should use more carrot and less stick then.

Isn’t giving out rewards, in the form of title/etc, for doing something pretty much the definition of, “carrot,” rather than, “stick?”

Simple fact of the matter is you are not forced to do anything, you don’t have to do map completion if you don’t want to enter into WvW maps.. if you do then you still don’t have to do anything except run to the map poi’s, challenges, vistas etc just like normal, but if a tower is not accessible due to enemies owning it then its a simple waiting game until the reset and map rotation likely occurs for you and you now find new objectives are accessible.. rinse repeat until the only thing left is SM.. that is the only thing that might take some minor effort in obtaining unless your server is dominant in the matchups…
So bottom line is map completion might require some minor delays whilst waiting for map rotations… ANET should not change it at all as it stands a chance of pulling in players who might actually get to like it, especially with many servers seeing WvW population issues nowadays… oops best not mention that topic as its been swept under the CDI cosy carpet

Stark.1350:

Vayne.8563:

bluestocking.6148:

MokahTGS.7850:

I don’t understand why people feel that they should be given something that they don’t deserve. 100% Completion is just that…completion. Asking for the WvW parts to be taken out is the same as asking for vista to be taken out.

Here’s my issue with it. It’s not about it being “too hard” for me to complete. It’s not about my not really wanting to do WvW or PvP, although that’s a little of it.

It’s that if myself and other people are just running around in there to get exploration points, we’re dead weight to the people that actually ARE there for the fight. I don’t want to be that person who’s not helping. I don’t want to take the spot of someone who wanted to participate. It’s like if there was an achievement for completing a dungeon without ever attacking anything. Would you want me on your dungeon run if I was just going to stand around picking my nose until you killed everything?

I know, in the grand scheme of WvW, one player or even 10 running around without actually participating probably doesn’t really make much difference. But some of us are … not jerks? I don’t like the idea of taking up a space to not actually do the content as it is designed.

This is by far the best argument I’ve seen against having to do WvW. This is a great post.

This is not a “great post” – it’s personal opinion and personal feeling on the matter, i.e., is completely irrelevant. People “take up space” to do the jumping puzzle and everything else and I don’t see anyone raging at them for it.

Getting WvW map completion is not hard. Be patient, work on other aspects of your legendary, and wait for the color switch to make it easy. Just keep checking the map all the time. Run in there real quick to grab a quick vista or something when your server has taken something over. Does everyone want everything handed to them these days?

This is a great post is an opinion. It’s not an objective fact. I found the post great, because I agree with it.

This has nothing to do with someone else being angry at you. I don’t even know how you got that from this post. It has to do with feeling that you’re not contributing YOURSELF. It’s something that I’m keenly aware of.

Even in Guild Wars 1, when I entered Jade Quarry for my mapping title and I was looking for what I was missing, instead of helping my team, I was keenly aware that’s what I was doing and I hated every second of it.

So yes, that was a great post….to me.

Well, Colin’s ‘plan’ forcing WvW on players doing map completion backfired with me.

Once I finished 100% world on my first toon, I never stepped foot in WvW again, and that was over a year ago.

Ashen.2907:

Astralporing.1957:

They should use more carrot and less stick then.

Isn’t giving out rewards, in the form of title/etc, for doing something pretty much the definition of, “carrot,” rather than, “stick?”

Not quite. It depends on how it is perceived. A good example of WvW carrot for PvE players were the Season 1 achievements. Season 1 rewards less so, as a lot of players found them really underwhelming (based, at least, at the general reception on boards and ingame). World completion is on the wrong side – though it is still not as bad as placing PvE achievement objectives at the end of Obsidian Sanctum.

(ah, by the way, when i speak about stick and carrot, i don’t mean map completion/other rewards, but the way WvW is used on PvE players)

well i crated 3 legendary weapon and i have 3 Toons with 100 % world … im working currently on 100% on toon #4.

I crafted my first legendary in December 2012 .. at that time Badge of honors was harder to get … today at each 500 AP you get hundreds of badges in the achievement chest …

Its so much easier today to craft a legendary weapon .. so swallow the pill. WvW map completion need to stay …. can’t do it ? you don’t deserve it . that’s it !

Given that PvP and PvE often describe differing and sometimes mutually exclusive player populations, I’ve never really understood the PvP requirement for map completion. It would seem to be a bad design decision at best.

Raine.1394:

Given that PvP and PvE often describe differing and sometimes mutually exclusive player populations, I’ve never really understood the PvP requirement for map completion. It would seem to be a bad design decision at best.

WvW is where PvE and PvP overlap, by design.

there is no PvP requirement for map completion, you don’t need to defeat a single player to qualify for any of it.

However there are PvE requirements that happen to be in a zone where PvP can occur.

I can understand their desire to prompt players to join in WvW at least once to see what it’s like, but that could easily have been restricted to maybe the title “Been there, done that” since it basically says you’ve been everywhere in game and done all the tasks it has to offer, while keeping the Gift of Exploration to PvE maps alone. I honestly don’t care for a title, nor a coveted medal on my account no one can see, but I wanted the gift to craft my legendary.

Needless to say it took over a month to get the WvW maps completed, at odd hours (5-6am) when it was safer for what they apparently call a “roamer” to travel around. At peak hours it’s just little groups of 2-3 players camping vistas (I kid you not) that want to get a cheap kill out of explorers. It took me 2 weeks on that last 1%, for the one dreaded fort that was never under my server’s control.

The problem is not really WvW exploration but it’s timegated and beyond any individual player’s control. You depend too much on a group to conquer then unlock varying points of interest and vistas. I could only dream of some kind of booster npc in WvW like the one in cities granting speed buffs, this one would grant some neutral state on the battlefield for 15-30min, with something as silly as a white flag for an icon, where you can’t engage combat with players nor npcs you come across and vice-versa, you are granted access to p.o.i controlled by competing servers, in essence you can only explore.

Wreave.2138:

WoW is awful at this. First time I ran into it was on their winter holiday event. Where essentially it required the PvP newb to intentionally handicap whatever poor team they ended up on. It made me so furious, that I resolved both not to do any PvP and not to do any more holiday achievements. And thus every holiday, I was again reminded of how angry I was at Blizzard for shoving PvP in a PvE achievement I would have otherwise loved.

I had hoped that GW2 was beyond this sort of problem — e.g. by making PvP optional in Daily’s and Monthlys. But now I see that they’re not. It’s a shame.

As much as you might see it as a problem for PvEers to be forced into PvP for some achievements, the reverse issue is actually probably worse. If you’re a dedicated PvP player that happens to snag a precursor, you’re in for some pain, because the opportunities for materials to make it a legendary are slim. Same for doing most achievements, because the lion’s share are in PvE.

Honestly, though. PvP involvement is still optional. No one is holding a gun to your head to finish that map, and aside from a few achievement points, the only need to do so is completion or making a legendary.

As far as that goes, I am an absolute PvP noob, and I still have the WvW section completely mapped out on 2 characters and mostly mapped out on 4 others, and you don’t need to enter sPvP for map completion. WvW isn’t horrific if you stick with a big group and map areas your server controls. You won’t get an area completed in a day, and may have to come back in a week or two when your server has a different starting area. Understand that going in. It’s not that painful

The nested quotes broke the forum so I am not totally replying to you, just to let you know in advance.

Vayne.8563:

This has nothing to do with someone else being angry at you. I don’t even know how you got that from this post. It has to do with feeling that you’re not contributing YOURSELF. It’s something that I’m keenly aware of.

Even in Guild Wars 1, when I entered Jade Quarry for my mapping title and I was looking for what I was missing, instead of helping my team, I was keenly aware that’s what I was doing and I hated every second of it.

So yes, that was a great post….to me.

Aha, that’s kinda funny. Apparently something being your opinion makes it invalid. I kinda felt sorry for you that you actually have to clear that up, that it was in fact your opinion, and if that’s irrelevant we might as well delete the whole subforum.

And yea, I can understand the feeling that people don’t want to be there taking up space, not playing the content as it was intended, blocking other people from joining. That’s because I play a lot of wvw and hate queues. It neither benefits me nor does it benefit them especially if they come in to rallybot. The rally system is bad, etc, but that’s another discussion. Season 1 WvW was a good example of PvE players only looking for rewards just flooding the wvw maps and those queues as well as overall quality of gameplay was pretty awful. At least the achievements directed them towards doing useful things for the server to. Pushing a bunch of pvers who don’t want to be there for map completion and who obviously won’t spec for wvw and will rally people by the dozens allows me to arguably say that this has a minor negative effect on my wvw experience.

Anyhow, as for the whole “handed to you” part, there seems to be a lot of ad hominem going on here that really isn’t relevant. In essence, that’s largely irrelevant. It doesn’t matter if the people who want this are lazy or bad or whatnot, but the discussion should be rather is it a productive part of gameplay. Talking about workarounds and solutions and whatnot and berating people for not taking them is working under the initial premise that the current system is infallible. Which is kind of a circular logic which would block every change suggested to the game as people would be instructed to just deal with it. This is the kinda crap where you get people opposing basic QoL stuff like account bound world ranks for no good reason other than it’s the way it is. Anet knows better than them at least.

Now a lot of you who may have read me post may have noted that I often do insult complainers and tell them to L2P. I generally hold complaints in this forum in very low regards and know it’s because people complain because they are bad and/or unreasonable and the game should not be changed. It would be worse if it were to be tilted to these demands. And while I insult people for needing to L2p or being lazy, it’s never the core of my argument. I just use it after proving their badness.

But in this case, I don’t really have a right to tell people to L2p (unless it means L2 pay). You can with skill, sneak and get all POIs/ wps but you aren’t soloing keeps (maybe towers) for most players. That would require a greater level of skill than your average wvw’er. Yes, I know it’s not too hard to gather together a couple of people to take a tower, but that’s besides the point.

And telling people to transfer? lol. Do people actually do that just to get map completion? I know I wouldn’t bother which is why I can’t get on my high horse I guess.

I speak from the perspective of someone that actually plays wvw and I will attest that there is nothing to be proud of getting the 4 stars from these zones, and that if you are able to access a keep, then you should be thankful that you are on a server that has nice coverage. I could easily complete all 4 wvw maps, because my server makes good pushes (or blobs, whatever) and I understand my fortune in being able to Karma train. Which is why I find these inconsiderate comments directed at people who don’t have these opportunities (most likely on servers with poor coverage) to be lacking in perspective, and honestly, if we want to sling mud back at them, spoiled. Literally bragging about karma training, lol. Typical zerglings. So I l2p’d by landing on a halfway decent server. Hmm…

In the end, I see nothing of value lost by removing wvw for map completion besides the loss of easy prey. (I guess I’ll never win a 1v1 again). It certainly doesn’t make me feel it trivializes my own map completion.

Oh, and I’m gonna complete map wvw pretty soon on my 2 other alts btw. Those skill pts on the sides may take a bit longer because ewww pve in wvw.

ArchonWing.9480:

Anyhow, as for the whole “handed to you” part, there seems to be a lot of ad hominem going on here that really isn’t relevant. In essence, that’s largely irrelevant. It doesn’t matter if the people who want this are lazy or bad or whatnot, but the discussion should be rather is it a productive part of gameplay. Talking about workarounds and solutions and whatnot and berating people for not taking them is working under the initial premise that the current system is infallible. Which is kind of a circular logic which would block every change suggested to the game as people would be instructed to just deal with it.

Good post.

Unwavering defense of a game is not in the game’s best interests. That’s why I find Vayne to be a more worthwhile read than most of the other game defenders, because he doesn’t defend everything, no matter what.

While I agree that players are not entitled to world completion, the main point of the OP was anger about being manipulated. Whether the manipulation was justified or not is one thing, but there is no doubt its intended, as ANet has admitted it. It’s “good design” in that it fulfills ANet’s goal of introducing players to the game mode. I’m sure some of them even go back. It’s “bad design” in that it angers some people, puts some people off, and (on some servers, at least) takes up queue space with players who are not actually there to WvW.

Vayne made the point about feeling badly for taking up a spot in Jade Quarry while doing GW map completion. I also felt badly about doing so, but at least one could complete that map on one entry — which is not true of WvW maps unless your server owns everything.

For me, being on a server which always seems to be 3rd of 3, tying exploration to WvW meant one less thing for me to do — as there seems little point to completing PvE zones if I’m not going to get full completion.

From reading how this thread is progressing and how it has progressed, I think the main thing we can take from it is that this issue is something different than just “A few people don’t like this, therefore they’re being entitled and don’t deserve to have this changed” like a lot of people are implying. What really kittens me off is that when a handful of people whined at Anet because the Flamekissed armor skin looked like human cultural armor and that wasn’t allowed because they wanted to be special snowflakes, Anet began changing it almost immediately. But something like this where a lot more people dislike an aspect of the game, Anet won’t change because “metrics tell us otherwise”. So, Anet wasn’t too busy to read a forum and change something completely inconsequential to how the game is played in that it is even more unnecessary and extraneous, but because of metrics, they won’t change something that about the same number of people (if not more) dislike. I just don’t understand that logic.

I didn’t read through the entire thread since I don’t think this is a big deal at all. Just check in on the maps at the times when your realm controls each side and you should get it with little to no trouble.

That being said, I would think a decent compromise would be to have a 100% PvE map completion, a 100% dungeon map completion, 100% WvW map completion, and 100% PvP map completion.

I was actually disappointed when the dungeon PoI didn’t count towards map completion. :/

I just found out about this little part of map completion and… yeah I wasn’t too happy about it. I guess my biggest problem with it, besides what everyone else has been saying, is that I like the challenge of being able to do map completion, exploring, fighting champions on my own. You know what I can’t do on my own? WvW. It sucks. And it is cheap. I don’t get why everyone thinks waiting for a few weeks and running around with a zerg is a big challenge or whatever. Yeah right. Fighting champions and getting everything in Orr is wayyy more of a challenge than WvW. WvW is just highly annoying. Instead of making a POI/vista impossible to get unless your server currently has that tower, POIs/vistas should be available for all and harder to get to instead of impossible. I am almost done with WvW completion now, so whatever. I am sucking it up. But I still don’t like it and I will probably never get another character to 100% again.

Wait. Stop for a second. Think.

500 Badges of Honor are required for the Gift of Battle, this was done along with WvW completion to force people to spend a significant amount of time in WvW. The achievement point rewards and WvW rank rewards have showered us with Badges and removed the actual participation aspect, but the map completion is still there. This is probably tied to the fact that legendaries can be displayed in PvE and WvW, so they want you to have some WvW experience before being able to display it there.

1. Wait until your server changes to a different color.

2. Go to the enemy borderlands when your server is raiding on their maps.

Personally waiting seems to be the best bet. Your side will eventually own the keep you need when it’s on your side, probably within 30 minutes of logging in, those things are CONSTANTLY being flipped. The other keeps and towers will be yours in one weeks times, which is probably less time than it takes you to clear every other zone, so it shouldn’t be THAT big a deal. The only difficult stuff to clear is SM castle since the weaker sides don’t capture it as often.

@TheNinjaCupcake: All MMOs try to get PvE players to start playing PvP. Presumably there’s a strong financial incentive to do that. One explanation that I’ve heard is that PvP players are “stickier”, i.e. easier to keep than PvE players. PvE players will get bored and leave once they’ve done all the content (which happens relatively quickly), while PvP players will stick around as long as there are other players to fight and the PvP combat is sufficiently interesting.

Compare that the flame armor conflict, where ANet just didn’t have a strong financial incentive to sell the human armor skin to other races (yes, it had some incentive, but not a strong one). Hence that was a decision that was easier for them to revert.

Again, personally I understand that business rationale for coercing PvE players to play PvP. But just because I understand it, does not mean that I am not personally angry about being coerced, and it doesn’t mean that that my regard for (and willingness to give money to) ANet is not substantially reduced.

Rick.5781:

Personally waiting seems to be the best bet. Your side will eventually own the keep you need when it’s on your side, probably within 30 minutes of logging in, those things are CONSTANTLY being flipped. The other keeps and towers will be yours in one weeks times, which is probably less time than it takes you to clear every other zone, so it shouldn’t be THAT big a deal. The only difficult stuff to clear is SM castle since the weaker sides don’t capture it as often.

The frustrating thing about posts like this is that it has already been answered repeatedly on this topic. Just because things flip that easily on your server does not mean that the same thing happens on other servers. As other people have posted, on some servers, things don’t flip.

One the basic rules of life: Not everyone is in the same situation that you are.

(Note: The difficulty with non-flips on servers is probably not a problem with my server. My issue is with being coerced period.)

Wreave.2138:

@TheNinjaCupcake: All MMOs try to get PvE players to start playing PvP. Presumably there’s a strong financial incentive to do that. One explanation that I’ve heard is that PvP players are “stickier”, i.e. easier to keep than PvE players. PvE players will get bored and leave once they’ve done all the content (which happens relatively quickly), while PvP players will stick around as long as there are other players to fight and the PvP combat is sufficiently interesting.

Compare that the flame armor conflict, where ANet just didn’t have a strong financial incentive to sell the human armor skin to other races (yes, it had some incentive, but not a strong one). Hence that was a decision that was easier for them to revert.

Again, personally I understand that business rationale for coercing PvE players to play PvP. But just because I understand it, does not mean that I am not personally angry about being coerced, and it doesn’t mean that that my regard for (and willingness to give money to) ANet is not substantially reduced.

I really do honestly get the business side of things. But it’s still not good design. Yeah, some people can just wait for things to flip or run in with a zerg, but the people who don’t aren’t going to get a very good PvP experience from that.

I guess what I really want is for Anet to find a better way to entice people into PvP—and surely there’s a better way? Sure, I’m going to try fighting my way through map completion someday, but it won’t be fun, I won’t appreciate it, and I won’t set foot into WvW ever again. From my experience, PvE players are typically casual players who don’t like PvP style play regardless of how many carrots are dangled over the chasm separating the two gameplay modes. The only thing that is enticing me into WvW is the fact that I have a friend who enjoys that kind of thing who can probably help me get what I need—not the achievements.

A final point: PvP actually looks fun to me. I probably won’t try it out, but at some point I might try it. WvW does NOT look fun at all. If you really want PvEers to try out PvP, then make the achievement go into structured PvP instead of WvW. I’d be much more inclined to play structured PvP than WvW anyway, and if I had been forced to go into the structured arena first, maybe then I’d have tried WvW. The way it is now, it just makes me miffed and disappointed.

GrandmaFunk.3052:

Raine.1394:

Given that PvP and PvE often describe differing and sometimes mutually exclusive player populations, I’ve never really understood the PvP requirement for map completion. It would seem to be a bad design decision at best.

WvW is where PvE and PvP overlap, by design.

there is no PvP requirement for map completion, you don’t need to defeat a single player to qualify for any of it.

However there are PvE requirements that happen to be in a zone where PvP can occur.

This is a common misunderstanding here and I do believe semantics plays a role. There is absolutely no overlap between PvE and PvP in WvW by design or otherwise. WvW is player against player. There is no possibility of avoiding PvP if you place yourself there.

In PvE you battle the environment not other players. I believe that Anet is partly to blame for the confusion in labeling PvP in such a way that it confuses its actual meaning. In games in or near the genre, there is just PvP or PvE—there is no possibility for them to overlap.

It’s not a misunderstanding, it’s how Anet explicitly defined and presented the game type when the game was released.

Raine.1394:

WvW is player against player. There is no possibility of avoiding PvP if you place yourself there.

And yet I’ve often gone in to WvW without seeing a single other player for long stretches of time, pvp is frequently “avoided”.. whether we want to or not.

I’ve run the JPs, I’ve gotten map completion, I’ve defeated the centaur threat, I’v soloed supply camps, I’ve saved the hyleks… all of which are PvE objectives I’ve accomplished in WvW, often without ever dealing with opposing players.

that seems like plenty of overlap to me.