Guild Wars 2

Raine.1394:

GrandmaFunk.3052:

Raine.1394:

Given that PvP and PvE often describe differing and sometimes mutually exclusive player populations, I’ve never really understood the PvP requirement for map completion. It would seem to be a bad design decision at best.

WvW is where PvE and PvP overlap, by design.

there is no PvP requirement for map completion, you don’t need to defeat a single player to qualify for any of it.

However there are PvE requirements that happen to be in a zone where PvP can occur.

This is a common misunderstanding here and I do believe semantics plays a role. There is absolutely no overlap between PvE and PvP in WvW by design or otherwise. WvW is player against player. There is no possibility of avoiding PvP if you place yourself there.

In PvE you battle the environment not other players. I believe that Anet is partly to blame for the confusion in labeling PvP in such a way that it confuses its actual meaning. In games in or near the genre, there is just PvP or PvE—there is no possibility for them to overlap.

Can’t really agree with your logic. There are PvE NPCs in WvW (krait, ogres, wolves, etc), as well as nodes and plants, trees. There are skill points and jumping puzzles. You can, indeed, run around in there for an hour or two and never see an opposing player.

I would like to add that sometimes when you do meet up with said opposing player, they may be doing the same as you. I had one instance where I was running around getting some POIs, ran up to an opposing player. We both stopped dead, then kept on running in opposite directions. So, it’s not always a “gank-fest” as much as those who have never stepped foot in the area think it is.

I believe what it IS, is confusing on where to go and what to do. There is a lot of running because there are few WPs. But honestly, no matter what, it is all just a waiting game, even for lower level tiers. My suggestion is NOT to wait until this is the only area you need. Get into WvW daily, long before you’re at 95%. Check what you can get. Go get it. If you’re feeling adventurous, jump in at reset and run with the zerg. You might die a few times, along with many others, but that is truly the worst thing that could happen. The best is that you might even have some fun.

I applaud ANet for their efforts to get people into WvW. I am not good at PvP, but if that was required for something I wanted, I would at least try it. Maybe I’d even become a better player for it.

It’s honestly one of their biggest mistakes. All one has to do is look at the history of mmo development to see that. For example, look at how the population of Aion dropped off when they discovered that not only did you have to go into a PVP area at level 30 but you had to in order to build up any points you needed for end game gear. To further the problem, they made it so that high level geared players could come along and squish the low level players. Putting PVE progress in a PVP area is always a bad idea, there’s a reason why those two don’t mix well and it’s simply due to the types of people playing and what they prefer to do with their time while playing.

Oh look it’s this thread again!

a·chieve·ment
n.
1. The act of accomplishing or finishing.
2. Something accomplished successfully, especially by means of exertion, skill, practice, or perseverance.
3. something that has been accomplished, esp by hard work, ability, or heroism
4. successful completion; accomplishment

Map completion is a feat which requires you to do a lot of things to complete. Going through the WvW maps is a significant part of the journey full of its own unique challenges which must be overcome. Without WvW, map completion would simply not be the same thing it is right now. Doing map completion requires that you do certain things in order to earn it. If you can’t, or are unwilling to do those things, then you don’t deserve it.

Liken this to hockey or basketball or whatever you want. If you can’t or are unwilling to do what it takes to be the best, you don’t deserve the gold medal/trophy/what-have-you.

Xenon.4537:

Oh look it’s this thread again!

a·chieve·ment
n.
1. The act of accomplishing or finishing.
2. Something accomplished successfully, especially by means of exertion, skill, practice, or perseverance.
3. something that has been accomplished, esp by hard work, ability, or heroism
4. successful completion; accomplishment

Map completion is a feat which requires you to do a lot of things to complete. Going through the WvW maps is a significant part of the journey full of its own unique challenges which must be overcome. Without WvW, map completion would simply not be the same thing it is right now. Doing map completion requires that you do certain things in order to earn it. If you can’t, or are unwilling to do those things, then you don’t deserve it.

Liken this to hockey or basketball or whatever you want. If you can’t or are unwilling to do what it takes to be the best, you don’t deserve the gold medal/trophy/what-have-you.

I tend to disagree. The only skill you need for map completion in WvW is luck. It´s pure luck which Borderlands you get and which part of EBG that goes with. And of course you need that extra bit of luck to check for EBG when your server has Stonemist under control.

To me personally it´s just annoying having to go to WvW for map completion. It´s a part of the game that i don´t play and don´t like. It´s unlike sPvP, where you mostly fight in 1v1s. In WvW it is mostly a 1v10+ zerg. Especially while you´re roaming and getting all the bits done you need.

GrandmaFunk.3052:

It’s not a misunderstanding, it’s how Anet explicitly defined and presented the game type when the game was released.

Raine.1394:

WvW is player against player. There is no possibility of avoiding PvP if you place yourself there.

And yet I’ve often gone in to WvW without seeing a single other player for long stretches of time, pvp is frequently “avoided”.. whether we want to or not.

I’ve run the JPs, I’ve gotten map completion, I’ve defeated the centaur threat, I’v soloed supply camps, I’ve saved the hyleks… all of which are PvE objectives I’ve accomplished in WvW, often without ever dealing with opposing players.

that seems like plenty of overlap to me.

It might be helpful if you either consider the term WvW or simply the purposes of the enterprise. It is clearly PvP activity. The fact that there are NPC’s is irrelevant. There are NPC’s in any PvP server in any MMO, but they are clearly marked PvP and everyone knows what that means. Saying that WvW is an overlap of PvE and PvP simply betrays a misunderstanding of what the terms mean. My logic is that they are distinct by their definitions and often attract quite different populations with different playstyles and preferences. Putting PvE objectives in a PvP environment really makes little sense.

and yet I play WvW specifically because it’s an overlap of PvE and PvP.

that is my playstyle and preference… and surely I’m not the only one.

GrandmaFunk.3052:

and yet I play WvW specifically because it’s an overlap of PvE and PvP.

that is my playstyle and preference… and surely I’m not the only one.

One last try here:

PvP: Player vs Player
PvE: Player vs Environment

As I mentioned, a PvP server (in another MMO) can have all the elements of a PvE server, npc’s, quests, achievements, everything, and it is labeled PvP as being distinct from a PvE server. Why?

A PvP environment is created when you can use your abilities, at will, to target other players (usually of an opposing faction), and other players can use their abilities to target you. The distinction between PvP and PvE is definitional and mutually exclusive. You are either in one environment or the other. Because PvP and PvE are often populated by different groups of people (though some enjoy both), it would seem foolish to put a very general PvE achievement in a PvP environment. At the very least you will have perennial threads like this one calling attention to the inappropriateness of it.

Xenon.4537:

Oh look it’s this thread again!

a·chieve·ment
n.
1. The act of accomplishing or finishing.
2. Something accomplished successfully, especially by means of exertion, skill, practice, or perseverance.
3. something that has been accomplished, esp by hard work, ability, or heroism
4. successful completion; accomplishment

Map completion is a feat which requires you to do a lot of things to complete. Going through the WvW maps is a significant part of the journey full of its own unique challenges which must be overcome. Without WvW, map completion would simply not be the same thing it is right now. Doing map completion requires that you do certain things in order to earn it. If you can’t, or are unwilling to do those things, then you don’t deserve it.

Liken this to hockey or basketball or whatever you want. If you can’t or are unwilling to do what it takes to be the best, you don’t deserve the gold medal/trophy/what-have-you.

That is a case of severe circular logic if one of your points is simply that changing it makes it not what it is right now.

Actually, you can’t liken this to hockey or basketball, or any legitimate competition. I don’t know of any competition that allows for 5x, 10x 20x, more players on one side than the others.

Measuring a feat is pointless if the circumstances are not balanced. Fact is that the effort required to achieve this is very different depending on circumstances. All the open world exploration is balanced because everyone faces the same content. There won’t be 2 veterans guarding a skill point one day, and 10 champions guarding the same skill point the next. The difficulty of visiting various locations does vary heavily in wvw. Plus guesting makes it so that no excuses whatsoever are possible.

In the end, a lot of the WvW exploration parts are outside the player’s control, which diminishes its value as a feat. Sure, there are workarounds like color changes, but I do remember my server keeping the same colors for quite a while. This should be pretty obvious to anyone who spends any decent amount of time in wvw, especially during that league season.

Raine.1394:

As I mentioned, a PvP server (in another MMO) can have all the elements of a PvE server, npc’s, quests, achievements, everything, and it is labeled PvP as being distinct from a PvE server. Why?

Why ? Because PvP is an option there whereas it is not in a PvE only server. I have played multi-hour sessions of WvW without engaging in anything but PvE. Is killing a dolyak, without another player anywhere in sight (perhaps not even on the map) somehow PvP ?

Ashen.2907:

Raine.1394:

As I mentioned, a PvP server (in another MMO) can have all the elements of a PvE server, npc’s, quests, achievements, everything, and it is labeled PvP as being distinct from a PvE server. Why?

Why ? Because PvP is an option there whereas it is not in a PvE only server. I have played multi-hour sessions of WvW without engaging in anything but PvE. Is killing a dolyak, without another player anywhere in sight (perhaps not even on the map) somehow PvP ?

Was that a supply dolyak? If to, then the answer is yes.
Besides, you seem to be confusing PvP activity with PvP envionment. An environment can be either PvP or PvE. It cannot be “an overlap” of those two – such an overlap would still be PvP (case in point – Open PvP servers)

an environment is just an environment, PvP and PvE both define types of activities.

WvW is a game mode that was made to have PvE activities happening side-by-side with PvP activities.

Pandemoniac.4739:

Personally, I think having WvWvW maps as part of map completion is a good idea. The problem is that your server has to be winning or have drawn a particular color for folks to get the map completion, and that’s a bad idea. Would it be so terrible if the the POIs were accessible regardless of who owns the keeps in a particular area? It would still be dangerous to get close to an owned keep.

I think using an individual achievement like map completion to try to incentivize a server wide goal like WvW dominance isn’t a great mechanic. I think encouraging typically PvE folks to come in and look around and see the entire game is a good thing, but requiring them to participate in conquering the maps or to wait for months depending on the server they’re on is setting the bar a little too high.

Personally, I he doing Reknown Hearts. They are slow to do, boring, take so long, grindy, and by far the most time consuming portion of map completion. They’re not even about exploitation! They’re about stupid fetch quests or stupid kill this quests. What’s the Exploration value of doing that?

And yet we are forced do these menial plebian labours to complete our Map completion. Yet I don’t see any of you complaining about that.

Frankly, that’s setting the bar too high. I just want to explore new places and seed new sights, not be some stupid NPC’s gopher.

It took me weeks to finish all the renown hearts. It took me three days to conquer all the points and Vistas of wvw. Food for thought.

ArchonWing.9480:

Measuring a feat is pointless if the circumstances are not balanced. Fact is that the effort required to achieve this is very different depending on circumstances. All the open world exploration is balanced because everyone faces the same content. There won’t be 2 veterans guarding a skill point one day, and 10 champions guarding the same skill point the next. The difficulty of visiting various locations does vary heavily in wvw. Plus guesting makes it so that no excuses whatsoever

But your own measure, map completion in pve is pointless.

The effort to complete Orr maps varies greatly depending on circumstances. Some points are more heavily guarded at certain times than others.

You just handily defeated yourself.

As for that silliness about wvw exploration being out of a players’ control, that’d utter silliness. You have the exact same ability to influence wvw exploration as you do pve exploration. You can really players to help you both, you can karma train both, you beat down enemy obstacles in both. WVW is far easier actually because there are less maps and easier things do : just POIs and vistas mostly, no renown hearts, no hidden places, no jumping puzzles (save green keep vista which is relatively easy) and it’s all straight forward.

I completed wvw map on eredon terrace during the season, where we were almost always losing team. We were continuously outnumbered, sometimes ten times the number players. Yet It was easy to do. You just have to stop thinking negatively about and just do it.

tigirius.9014:

It’s honestly one of their biggest mistakes. All one has to do is look at the history of mmo development to see that. For example, look at how the population of Aion dropped off when they discovered that not only did you have to go into a PVP area at level 30 but you had to in order to build up any points you needed for end game gear. To further the problem, they made it so that high level geared players could come along and squish the low level players. Putting PVE progress in a PVP area is always a bad idea, there’s a reason why those two don’t mix well and it’s simply due to the types of people playing and what they prefer to do with their time while playing.

It doesn’t seem to be that big a mistake because apparently tons of people are still playing both pve and wvw.

Your also misrepresenting the analogy: wvw isn’t the way of pve progression at all. You can level up to 80 without ever touching wvw, and you can get any gear you want without ever touching wvw except for legendaries and wvw gear (which is just a reskin of pve gear)

Mochann.5298:

Pandemoniac.4739:

Personally, I think having WvWvW maps as part of map completion is a good idea. The problem is that your server has to be winning or have drawn a particular color for folks to get the map completion, and that’s a bad idea. Would it be so terrible if the the POIs were accessible regardless of who owns the keeps in a particular area? It would still be dangerous to get close to an owned keep.

I think using an individual achievement like map completion to try to incentivize a server wide goal like WvW dominance isn’t a great mechanic. I think encouraging typically PvE folks to come in and look around and see the entire game is a good thing, but requiring them to participate in conquering the maps or to wait for months depending on the server they’re on is setting the bar a little too high.

Personally, I he doing Reknown Hearts. They are slow to do, boring, take so long, grindy, and by far the most time consuming portion of map completion. They’re not even about exploitation! They’re about stupid fetch quests or stupid kill this quests. What’s the Exploration value of doing that?

And yet we are forced do these menial plebian labours to complete our Map completion. Yet I don’t see any of you complaining about that.

Frankly, that’s setting the bar too high. I just want to explore new places and seed new sights, not be some stupid NPC’s gopher.

It took me weeks to finish all the renown hearts. It took me three days to conquer all the points and Vistas of wvw. Food for thought.

I’m with you on that. Gargh! All the ridiculous heart stuff and vistas. Boooorrrring. Tedious. Time consuming to no end. I’ve put in over 1200 hours and have only 1 toon with full map completion, NOT because of the WvW requirement, but because of the PvE boringness of having to redo these tedious TASKS over and over again.

Mochann.5298:

ArchonWing.9480:

Measuring a feat is pointless if the circumstances are not balanced. Fact is that the effort required to achieve this is very different depending on circumstances. All the open world exploration is balanced because everyone faces the same content. There won’t be 2 veterans guarding a skill point one day, and 10 champions guarding the same skill point the next. The difficulty of visiting various locations does vary heavily in wvw. Plus guesting makes it so that no excuses whatsoever

But your own measure, map completion in pve is pointless.

The effort to complete Orr maps varies greatly depending on circumstances. Some points are more heavily guarded at certain times than others.

You just handily defeated yourself.

Nope, don’t try to claim victory so preemptively. Any perceived imbalance can be mitigated through FREE guesting of which can be done twice a day, therefore the system is perfectly balanced. And the majority of Orr can be solo’d except when dynamic events are happening, and we have like entire groups of third party sites to instantly get what you need. It makes the whole thing quite predictable.

As for that silliness about wvw exploration being out of a players’ control, that’d utter silliness. You have the exact same ability to influence wvw exploration as you do pve exploration. You can really players to help you both, you can karma train both, you beat down enemy obstacles in both. WVW is far easier actually because there are less maps and easier things do : just POIs and vistas mostly, no renown hearts, no hidden places, no jumping puzzles (save green keep vista which is relatively easy) and it’s all straight forward.

I completed wvw map on eredon terrace during the season, where we were almost always losing team. We were continuously outnumbered, sometimes ten times the number players. Yet It was easy to do. You just have to stop thinking negatively about and just do it.

Lol, if you think that the difficulty of reaching certain points in pve and wvw have the same degree of fluctuation, then there’s nothing to say. Mobs are generally easier to bypass than actual players. Usually… I don’t need to pvdoor anything down in pve either.

And congrats on the positive thinking lecture. I already did it and I don’t find it to be such a feat.

But in any case, I was never really arguing whether or not wvw map compleition is doable or not; I just don’t think it adds much to gameplay. And I’m of the firm belief that my experience doesn’t account for the experience of everyone else— giving out of context advice works fine for most of PvE but I believe it’s a lot different and may not be applicable to whatever wvw they are in. It would feel a bit smug.

As I wrote earlier, if I would like to do this as it is set now, I’ll do it.

I tried to do last PoI in WvW for 3 days. I had been a few seconds from the last keep several times and I was killed or it was taken by other server during my way through the whole map for it. The only feeling I had was anger.

I’ve already done it. But I don’t feel any satisfaction or happiness. I felt them after completion of whole PvE. It was my work, my merit. I had max 25% participation for WvW part of “Done That” part of the title. It was work of other players from my server I was able to finish it. I just don’t think it should be done this way.

Ashen.2907:

Raine.1394:

As I mentioned, a PvP server (in another MMO) can have all the elements of a PvE server, npc’s, quests, achievements, everything, and it is labeled PvP as being distinct from a PvE server. Why?

Why ? Because PvP is an option there whereas it is not in a PvE only server. I have played multi-hour sessions of WvW without engaging in anything but PvE. Is killing a dolyak, without another player anywhere in sight (perhaps not even on the map) somehow PvP ?

It’s pretty straightforward and I’ve explained it elsewhere. A PvP environment exists when you can target other players with your abilities and they can target you with their abilities. It’s actually simple and anyone can know whether they are in a PvP or PvE environment. Just ask yourself whether players are able to target other players. If so, you are PvPing, if not, it’s PvE. And, WvW, in GW2 is PvP. Again, it should go without saying, but many here are confused about gaming basics. And Anet is to blame for muddying the definitions rather than being clear about something so basic and well known in any game that uses the terms.

Astralporing.1957:

Ashen.2907:

Raine.1394:

As I mentioned, a PvP server (in another MMO) can have all the elements of a PvE server, npc’s, quests, achievements, everything, and it is labeled PvP as being distinct from a PvE server. Why?

Why ? Because PvP is an option there whereas it is not in a PvE only server. I have played multi-hour sessions of WvW without engaging in anything but PvE. Is killing a dolyak, without another player anywhere in sight (perhaps not even on the map) somehow PvP ?

Was that a supply dolyak? If to, then the answer is yes.
Besides, you seem to be confusing PvP activity with PvP envionment. An environment can be either PvP or PvE. It cannot be “an overlap” of those two – such an overlap would still be PvP (case in point – Open PvP servers)

In the midst of so much confusion on gaming basics, it is always heartening to know there are others playing that understand the meaning of simple gaming terms. As I’ve mentioned, open pvp servers can have all the content of pve servers and still be a pvp and not a pve server. There is no overlap possible as the terms exclude each other in terms of their underlying meaning. And, as you said, if they have both it means that they are a pvp server and not a pve server. This is why WvW is a pvp environment and not a pve environment. The complaint in the thread is about locating general pve achievements in a pvp environment. Because the two game modes describe often differing player populations, it makes little sense to force a group that hates pvp into a pvp setting for a general pve achievement like map exploration.

Reading through this and people are trying to separate WvW between PVP and PVE. WvW is PVPVE. Its not strictly PVP nor is it strictly PVE. It is the direct combination of both combining aspects from both sectors much like WOW. At the same time however WvW is not PVPVE as it is Stragetic PVPVE as there are goals and objectives to be completed by a large group of people. Lets break this down for people to understand.

PVE stands for Player versus Environment, where the player is against NPCs or the system for a goal.

PVP stands for Player versus Player, where players are against other players for a goal.

In Guild Wars 2, WvW has PVE and PVP as when your walking there is animals that will attack you and other NPCs. There is gathering nodes, POIs, Skill Points, and Jumping Puzzles. PVP aspects include fighting other players in defense, roaming, or invading. Stragey occurs from all the towers, camps, keeps, and a castle on the maps that must be captured and defended which requires some planning to be successful. Combining all these elements creates Strategic PVPVE.

Now on to the main subject about Map completion. I have at this moment 9 characters, 8 of which have completed WvW maps 100% of their map completion. I am in FA server which is often against JQ, Mag, TC, DB, etc. so fighting against some of the highest ranked servers in NA. Map Completion is not difficult and with an effective group of people (5-10) you can sneak capture most locations. larger locations such as Castle and keeps are harder and will require a zerg which most servers have at times.

I do not mind map completion including WvW as it is part of the entire PVE as i stated above, WvW is PVPVE. WvW also brings a large amount of PVE players who dislike PVP into WvW with a common goal of taking a tower, keep, or castle. Gather enough people and you can capture it. In my guilds i volunteer to help people map WvW and PVE.

Anet’s goal is to get PVE players into WvW so they can try different things rather than being stuck in an infinite loop. I agree with Anet’s decision on this matter as you need to try different aspects of a game to see if you like it or not. If I dislike a part of a game i just complete what i need from that area then continue on with stuff I like.

ffletcher.3468:

I just quit exploration at 95%. Will never get my gold star. Ticks me off but it’s obviously my own fault for not being a good little metric.

You think that ticks you off? I’m stuck at 99% because i’m missing 1 Point of Interest.. xD

PSX.9250:

You think that ticks you off? I’m stuck at 99% because i’m missing 1 Point of Interest.. xD

Chantry of Secrets. It’s almost always the Chantry of Secrets.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chantry_of_Secrets

PSX.9250:

ffletcher.3468:

I just quit exploration at 95%. Will never get my gold star. Ticks me off but it’s obviously my own fault for not being a good little metric.

You think that ticks you off? I’m stuck at 99% because i’m missing 1 Point of Interest.. xD

Yup, trust me also, it is the Chantry of Secrets. It’s really deceptive because the map will not show that you’re missing that POI. You will not know it’s there until you’ve been there! Very frustrating!!! Happened to all of us :-[

Raine.1394:

In the midst of so much confusion on gaming basics, it is always heartening to know there are others playing that understand the meaning of simple gaming terms.

Gaming Terms:

PvE = Player vs Environment.

PvP = Player vs Player.

I can go into WvW and Play vs the Environment. Sure the environment allows for PvP, but does not require it. Heck I have seen situations in WvW where one played vs the environment and vs other players at the same time.

Raine.1394:

Astralporing.1957:

Ashen.2907:

Raine.1394:

As I mentioned, a PvP server (in another MMO) can have all the elements of a PvE server, npc’s, quests, achievements, everything, and it is labeled PvP as being distinct from a PvE server. Why?

Why ? Because PvP is an option there whereas it is not in a PvE only server. I have played multi-hour sessions of WvW without engaging in anything but PvE. Is killing a dolyak, without another player anywhere in sight (perhaps not even on the map) somehow PvP ?

Was that a supply dolyak? If to, then the answer is yes.
Besides, you seem to be confusing PvP activity with PvP envionment. An environment can be either PvP or PvE. It cannot be “an overlap” of those two – such an overlap would still be PvP (case in point – Open PvP servers)

In the midst of so much confusion on gaming basics, it is always heartening to know there are others playing that understand the meaning of simple gaming terms. As I’ve mentioned, open pvp servers can have all the content of pve servers and still be a pvp and not a pve server. There is no overlap possible as the terms exclude each other in terms of their underlying meaning. And, as you said, if they have both it means that they are a pvp server and not a pve server. This is why WvW is a pvp environment and not a pve environment. The complaint in the thread is about locating general pve achievements in a pvp environment. Because the two game modes describe often differing player populations, it makes little sense to force a group that hates pvp into a pvp setting for a general pve achievement like map exploration.

WvW is both PvE and PvP. People commonly make the mistake of thinking WvW is all PvP based.

ozmaniandevil.6805:

PSX.9250:

ffletcher.3468:

I just quit exploration at 95%. Will never get my gold star. Ticks me off but it’s obviously my own fault for not being a good little metric.

You think that ticks you off? I’m stuck at 99% because i’m missing 1 Point of Interest.. xD

Yup, trust me also, it is the Chantry of Secrets. It’s really deceptive because the map will not show that you’re missing that POI. You will not know it’s there until you’ve been there! Very frustrating!!! Happened to all of us :-[

And even if you HAVE been there, sometimes you have to go back when you’ve done everything else to trigger it.

Behellagh.1468:

PSX.9250:

You think that ticks you off? I’m stuck at 99% because i’m missing 1 Point of Interest.. xD

Chantry of Secrets. It’s almost always the Chantry of Secrets.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chantry_of_Secrets

Obtained it ages ago and just checked it again and nothing happened but ah well.

OMG! After all this time i actually had to go inside i thought it was the Deadend cave point T.T

Mochann.5298:

Pandemoniac.4739:

Personally, I think having WvWvW maps as part of map completion is a good idea. The problem is that your server has to be winning or have drawn a particular color for folks to get the map completion, and that’s a bad idea. Would it be so terrible if the the POIs were accessible regardless of who owns the keeps in a particular area? It would still be dangerous to get close to an owned keep.

Personally, I he doing Reknown Hearts. They are slow to do, boring, take so long, grindy, and by far the most time consuming portion of map completion. They’re not even about exploitation! They’re about stupid fetch quests or stupid kill this quests. What’s the Exploration value of doing that?

If I was advocating making players invulnerable in the WvW areas so they could get their world completion without having to PvP, that might be relevant. You didn’t need help from anyone to complete those hearts, and you didn’t have to wait for them to become accessible, so you could do them whenever and at whatever pace you could stomach.

Players must go into WvW and make themselves available to get confronted by enemy players to get their world completion, which I think is good exposure to PvP. Requiring that players organize a group on their server and be successful at WvW I think sets the bar too high if the goal is to encourage players to get exposed to the entire game (well outside of sPvP – I think they should have added at least the POI in the lobby as part of the achievement too).

I consider world completion separate from creating a legendary, which requires badges you can only get from PvPing. I’m against removing the POIs in the WvW maps from the achievement, but I think that they should be accessible even if you are on the worst server for WvW. Players would still have to go to places where enemy players are likely to be, so it’s not going to be completely risk free. I’m sure there will still be some players unhappy with it, but I think it would be less frustrating for most.

I’m not however going to be allowing any enemy players to walk past me unmolested so they can get their world completion without a fight – I’m not a complete care bear Who knows, they might actually like a fight that requires some skill instead of fighting mobs with predictable AI…

Personally, I cannot call the map completion achievement solely as a PvE achievement. It represents the game as a whole—it even gives you the title “Been there, Done That”.

I think that by obtaining that achievement means you’ve been to every part of every game mode of the game—and that includes WvW. Even if it includes sPvP maps, I wouldn’t mind. It would sure motivate me to try sPvP since I’m quite afraid of it.

Well maybe if you ladies and gents keep creating threads like this maybe the developers will remove WvW from the requirement, eh? I mean after all we had posts like this before when they allowed us to lay siege in the place /sigh

You think you are posting tears of sorrow now just imagine the buckets full back then. And back then you could transfer servers without restrictions /boggle.

It’s a game. The shiny object is called Legendary for a reason. They are not supposed to fall out of the sky like skittles. Nor are the precursors. Honestly, I think they are too easy to obtain has it is yet Arena Net is going to allow them to be crafted. See Ma, they (developers) do listen and grant people to what they shed alligator tears for.

This by no means says they game client can’t evolve over time. It should, and will. But I think the OP, in this case the player Wreave, is over reacting to the point of he or she running around the house, arms held high, screaming, looking like little Drew Barrymore in E.T.

I don’t know what server you are on but you are talking 3 weeks at best with maybe 5 minutes a night peaking in the WvW map to see what is up. I say 3 weeks because chances are high you will swap map colors at least once. Only area’s that will cause you some trouble will be keeps and home borderlands if you are missing some of those. Everything else tied to a tower or none secure vista can be had easy. Towers can be taking with 2 people. And since I don’t know if you are an achievement seeker or not, why didn’t you knock this out when the Season One was under way? Most people knocked it out then since servers made pacts to flip various places just for this.

Look. I think you are a smart player. Take a look at the maps when you log in or before you log, have some self restraint and above all, have some patience. I think it will go along way for you and the enjoyment of the game.

Im with you on this op. Either remove the requirement from WvW or make WvW fun, not this zerg all day trash.

Dromar.1027:

Im with you on this op. Either remove the requirement from WvW or make WvW fun, not this zerg all day trash.

Who says you have to join a Zerg? Also, what makes you believe that is all there is to WvW?

Coltz.5617:

- There are people feeling like they are being coerced to WvW.

That’s my take on it, also why I have 6x 80s at 92% map completion iirc.

Azala Yar.7693:

Coltz.5617:

- There are people feeling like they are being coerced to WvW.

That’s my take on it, also why I have 6x 80s at 92% map completion iirc.

If you have 6×80′s and don’t have map complete then you have other issues.

Crapgame.6519:

Azala Yar.7693:

Coltz.5617:

- There are people feeling like they are being coerced to WvW.

That’s my take on it, also why I have 6x 80s at 92% map completion iirc.

If you have 6×80′s and don’t have map complete then you have other issues.

The other 8% are in PvP zones and in this game PvP I found to be crap mainly because of people being invisible and suddenly appearing even elementalists. Although that might not be an issue any longer as I have a new PC, but who knows.

I do have an issue with MMO companies that try to force content on you by game design. Especially as it’s really not necessary in most cases.

Why not split Map Exploration into separate PvE and WvW/PvP achievements? You get one Gift of Exploration for doing either, so you’d still end up with two if you did everything, but you only need to do one to get your Legendary.

Azala Yar.7693:

Crapgame.6519:

Azala Yar.7693:

Coltz.5617:

- There are people feeling like they are being coerced to WvW.

That’s my take on it, also why I have 6x 80s at 92% map completion iirc.

If you have 6×80′s and don’t have map complete then you have other issues.

The other 8% are in PvP zones and in this game PvP I found to be crap mainly because of people being invisible and suddenly appearing even elementalists. Although that might not be an issue any longer as I have a new PC, but who knows.

I do have an issue with MMO companies that try to force content on you by game design. Especially as it’s really not necessary in most cases.

Interesting point but this is a glass half full half empty argument for either side (I’m not biased). But let me tilt the argument if you will. Have you ever looked at lets say the WvW only player who feels that the developers solely focus on PvE?

PvE gets bi-weekly (give or take) content updates. They get seasonal content. They get more opportunities for loot and achievement points. Almost everything tilts in the favor of PvE when compared to equal time spent in WvW all things being equal.

What’s funny is PvE’ers want map completion out of there as much as W3’ers do. They both agree on that simple idea, it’s ANet who doesn’t want it that way.

As for the other argument, percentages don’t matter. Even if there is only 1 enemy dude on the other side of the whole map from you, and he’s afk drunk on his floor at his apartment…it’s still a PvP map. It’s an open-zone(notice I didn’t say world) PvP map, which means it’s PvP taking place in a PvE map. It doesn’t matter if you never, ever see an enemy player, the possibility of it is there. And that’s all that really matters.

Crapgame.6519:

Azala Yar.7693:

Crapgame.6519:

Azala Yar.7693:

Coltz.5617:

- There are people feeling like they are being coerced to WvW.

That’s my take on it, also why I have 6x 80s at 92% map completion iirc.

If you have 6×80′s and don’t have map complete then you have other issues.

The other 8% are in PvP zones and in this game PvP I found to be crap mainly because of people being invisible and suddenly appearing even elementalists. Although that might not be an issue any longer as I have a new PC, but who knows.

I do have an issue with MMO companies that try to force content on you by game design. Especially as it’s really not necessary in most cases.

Interesting point but this is a glass half full half empty argument for either side (I’m not biased). But let me tilt the argument if you will. Have you ever looked at lets say the WvW only player who feels that the developers solely focus on PvE?

PvE gets bi-weekly (give or take) content updates. They get seasonal content. They get more opportunities for loot and achievement points. Almost everything tilts in the favor of PvE when compared to equal time spent in WvW all things being equal.

Problem with MMOs is there’s 3 types of players, PvPers, PvEers and those that do both (not just GW2).

PvEers don’t want anything to do with PvP (combat) it’s not why they play MMOs. Yet PvPers typically want everyone to PvP. This is also the problem with map completion as they’ve taken the side of the PvPers in the way the maps completed.

Personally where I stand totally depends on the game. GW2 PvE, WoW all 3 types at different times, but generally I’m usually PvE in most MMOs.

Azala Yar.7693:

Crapgame.6519:

Azala Yar.7693:

Crapgame.6519:

Azala Yar.7693:

Coltz.5617:

- There are people feeling like they are being coerced to WvW.

That’s my take on it, also why I have 6x 80s at 92% map completion iirc.

If you have 6×80′s and don’t have map complete then you have other issues.

The other 8% are in PvP zones and in this game PvP I found to be crap mainly because of people being invisible and suddenly appearing even elementalists. Although that might not be an issue any longer as I have a new PC, but who knows.

I do have an issue with MMO companies that try to force content on you by game design. Especially as it’s really not necessary in most cases.

Interesting point but this is a glass half full half empty argument for either side (I’m not biased). But let me tilt the argument if you will. Have you ever looked at lets say the WvW only player who feels that the developers solely focus on PvE?

PvE gets bi-weekly (give or take) content updates. They get seasonal content. They get more opportunities for loot and achievement points. Almost everything tilts in the favor of PvE when compared to equal time spent in WvW all things being equal.

You sound like a typical PvP player.

Really? Enlighten me. I simply changed the question on you. Would you agree or not that from a WvW player perspective PvE gets more attention in regards to content and textures?

Problem with MMOs is there’s 3 types of players, PvPers, PvEers and those that do both (not just GW2).

PvEers don’t want anything to do with PvP (combat) it’s not why they play MMOs. Yet PvPers typically want everyone to PvP. This is also the problem with map completion as they’ve taken the side of the PvPers in the way the maps completed.

Personally where I stand totally depends on the game. GW2 PvE, WoW all 3 types at different times, but generally I’m usually PvE in most MMOs.

We agree on the number, 3, but it stops there. This isn’t about a player per say but more of the types of game play GW2 offers. It isn’t a typical MMO because there are not set class roles nor is there a gear treadmill. It is, more or less, a dress up Barbie once you reach max level. You don’t need anything much past exotics honestly for all plays of game excluding 30+ fractals.

We agree on 3 because there are 3 different meta’s of play. PvE, WvW, and s/tPvP. Structured PvP is isolated because it is confined to lockers and controlled maps. Gear and traits stay there and it is limited. The line gets blurred when you introduce PvE with WvW since anything and everything goes (buffs, gear, upticks, etc).

Again, if the argument is about completion of a map for a object required to make a legendary than let us take a step back. Agree on the number 3. Agree that there are different meta’s of play in the game. But at the end of the day one already knows what is in front of them when they embark on making a legendary. What is map completion in relationship to the bigger picture of completion?

Had they paid attention to WvW during the end to end process of making said legendary this wouldn’t be an issue. There is no way, even in the lower tiered servers, that they wouldn’t have changed map colors during the course of crafting. Just not going to buy that argument at all (not saying you said it, just saying in the bigger picture this shouldn’t even be brought up).

Crapgame.6519:

Would you agree or not that from a WvW player perspective PvE gets more attention in regards to content and textures?

Absolutely, tons more (though not sure what you mean by textures). Players who like WvW and/or PvP only, or who have a strong preference for either of those game modes have gotten a much worse deal than PvE players in this game.

I understand the tendency to look at advantaged people complaining and getting satisfaction from the shoe being on the other foot for a change. However, I tend to view this as more of a “two wrongs don’t make a right” situation. Forcing PvP players to dungeon for a legendary is no better than forcing PvE players to WvW for one.

What’s really going on behind the scenes is that the developer wants players to branch out and experience more of the content. This could be because: they’re passionate about their work and want more people to appreciate all of it; they recognize that if players play all game modes they might stick around longer (under the more-to-do premise); and/or they feel that the various game modes will work better with bigger numbers participating.

Retention of players is in the developers best interests. Angering players is not a good idea — whether they’re PvE players who don’t appreciate being “coerced” into PvP or PvP players who don’t appreciate being “coerced” into PvE. At the end of the day, the developer gets to set the conditions needed to receive rewards. However, it is also to their advantage to give more things to do to people who don’t want to step into game mode X.

Finally, ANet would be well served to pay more attention to the WvW portion of the community, and what’s left of those who came to the game for sPvP. Hopefully, we’ll see some of that this year.

Crapgame.6519:

Azala Yar.7693:

You sound like a typical PvP player.

Really? Enlighten me.

I actually removed that comment before you posted.

Crapgame.6519:

I simply changed the question on you. Would you agree or not that from a WvW player perspective PvE gets more attention in regards to content and textures?

In a lot of games PvE was a main way to level a character.

So the question should be aimed at level 80 character content. So with that in mind I’ll answer.

Achievements are not content they’re just a list of things to do drawn up by the devs to try to keep people occupied.

The 2 week content you referred to earlier I guess is the living story, but to me and lots of other PvE players it offers no content.

Jumping puzzles are limited content, do them once and no real reason to do them again, other than maybe when doing monthly tasks.

Daily/monthly tasks are not content, just a list of things to do drawn up by the devs and randomised.

Hearts (quests) are mainly levelling content so at 80 there’s a lot less to complete, done once and that’s the end of it.

End game PvE content is not great in this game by any means. So do I think PvE gets the best treatment? No, I don’t.

Crapgame.6519:

Interesting point but this is a glass half full half empty argument for either side (I’m not biased). But let me tilt the argument if you will. Have you ever looked at lets say the WvW only player who feels that the developers solely focus on PvE?

PvE gets bi-weekly (give or take) content updates. They get seasonal content. They get more opportunities for loot and achievement points. Almost everything tilts in the favor of PvE when compared to equal time spent in WvW all things being equal.

If you’re playing GW 2 solely for this kind of content, you’re doing it wrong.

PvEers get the majority of the content because GW 2 is primarily a PvE game. If not, it would be more akin to the types of MMOs where you can fight other players in the overworld, but the game is largely cooperative. That’s why PvP and WvW have their own little sections.

Now, I’m not saying that PvPers and WvWers shouldn’t get new content. I’d be all for having a duel option in the main game like some people have been suggesting—as long as I’m able to politely decline and not get chewed out for it. I plan to try WvW completion because I want a legendary, but I won’t set foot into WvW afterwards, and that’s okay. Some people will find they like it, and that’s okay too. The idea is, let people play however they want to and add enticements in the overworld itself for PvEers that they can decline if they don’t want to participate.

I know people are going to come back with the same old song and dance of “Well, you don’t have to participate in WvW completion.” The point isn’t that we don’t have to, it’s that we [/b]shouldn’t[/b] have to. Honestly, I feel more like ]b] I’m[/b] invading the WvW arena more than if some PvP elements were introduced to the overworld.

Like I said, PvE dueling options with the ability to decline would be okay in my book. Lure us into WvW by coming to us—honestly, for people like me, the best way to entice me into something I wouldn’t normally try is to let me encounter it somewhere and want to see what it’s all about.

So you want credit for exploring the whole world except you dont want to explore the whole world…

At this point in my quest for map completion, I am fed up of wvw. I am not a pvp player by any inclination whatsoever, and at this point.. I’m just doing it to DESTROY the necessity to go into the mode any more at all.

I’m fed up with it and I’ve got a few miles left. It’s totally demotivating. I’m doing map completion on one character and I can not picture doing it on any other character in future purely because of this stumbling block.

Azala Yar.7693:

Crapgame.6519:

Azala Yar.7693:

You sound like a typical PvP player.

Really? Enlighten me.

I actually removed that comment before you posted.

Fair enough. I apologize. The conversation was moving rather quickly and civil I just didn’t revisit.

Crapgame.6519:

I simply changed the question on you. Would you agree or not that from a WvW player perspective PvE gets more attention in regards to content and textures?

Azala Yar.7693:

End game PvE content is not great in this game by any means. So do I think PvE gets the best treatment? No, I don’t.

Fair enough. We disagree but still remain friends. In my mind/opinion I see them get evolving content and rewards compared to the WvW meta that stays stagnant. I am biased admittedly in that is all I play for the most part though.

I still say if anyone is undertaking the task of crafting a legendary they already know what is ahead of them. The time required to get map complete in WvW is small compared to the bigger picture. But maybe I’m wrong since I’ve not crafted one and already have map complete or just see it differently. Regardless, thanks for keeping it civil and maybe see you around in-game.

Melroc.8290:

So you want credit for exploring the whole world except you dont want to explore the whole world…

silly WvWvW isnt in tyria its in the mists where the underworld and fissure of woe are located, even lore cant explain why we need it for 100% gw1 didnt count uw or foe for 100%

Ashen.2907:

Raine.1394:

In the midst of so much confusion on gaming basics, it is always heartening to know there are others playing that understand the meaning of simple gaming terms.

Gaming Terms:

PvE = Player vs Environment.

PvP = Player vs Player.

I can go into WvW and Play vs the Environment. Sure the environment allows for PvP, but does not require it. Heck I have seen situations in WvW where one played vs the environment and vs other players at the same time.

You misunderstand what the terms mean and where the distinction arises. PvP and PvE, as game modes, have been around for a long time and are well understood. If you have, for instance, a game that has PvP and PvE servers. The PvP servers will have all the PvE content that the PvE servers have, but they won’t be a PvE server, they will be a PvP server. What this means in practice if you have PvE only it’s PvE. If you have PvP only, it’s PvP. If you have a mix of PvE and PvP, it’s PvP. Afterall, the PvP environments always have all the PvE content—this must be so.

Why is this so? Why does a mixture of PvE and PvP make it PvP. It’s because the only distinction that matters in terms of understanding which environment you are playing in is whether players can use their abilities to target other players. Regardless of the content in any given instance, if you can target other players with your abilities, you are in a PvP environment. If you can’t, you are in a PvE environment. And, this gets back to the thread topic. It makes no sense whatsoever to force players that hate PvP into a PvP environment to get something that is obviously a very general PvE achievement—map exploration.

I cut players here some slack as Anet is complicit in promulgating misunderstanding around PvE and PvP.

Melroc.8290:

So you want credit for exploring the whole world except you dont want to explore the whole world…

Technically W3 isn’t even on Tyria.

Original Guild Wars players probably wouldn’t have been upset by such a non-issue.