Guild Wars 2

kolompi.1287:

Labjax.2465:

kolompi.1287:

You know, all these ideas don’t matter much, simply because if they were implemented, three months from now someone would start a thread about how these rewards are not enough for the drag that is map completion and there should be more.

Slippery slope fallacy is slippery slope.

But that’s how it works. It was like that with dungeon rewards, champion loot, everything. The rewards at any given time seem to be not enough.

You cannot assume that “we will always need more” is a reasonable justification for not doing something with the current idea, even if you perceive that as always being the case. We are not talking about what we might need three months from now. The current discussion is that map completion rewards seem to be lacking for some, and whether people should be rewarded more for completing map exploration (including K hearts) .

Legendaries would be a good motivation, if the precursors dropped more/werent so stupid hard to get.

Seems to me like most of the people who complained about the rewards not being enough have already explored the world once.

The beautiful thing is, you don’t have to explore it on other characters. You didn’t even have to explore it once. You don’t find it rewarding enough to spend time on it? Don’t do it. If you like exploring, you won’t do it for the material rewards anyway, but for the sake of exploring or to satisfy your completionist side.

kolompi.1287:

Seems to me like most of the people who complained about the rewards not being enough have already explored the world once.

The beautiful thing is, you don’t have to explore it on other characters. You didn’t even have to explore it once. You don’t find it rewarding enough to spend time on it? Don’t do it. If you like exploring, you won’t do it for the material rewards anyway, but for the sake of exploring or to satisfy your completionist side.

And what if they only did it once? Maybe they thought it was lacking and think the rewards should be better now that they have been there and done that. Someone that has actually experienced it is exactly the type of person that should know whether or not the rewards are lacking. Plus arenanet obviously wants players to get map completion and explore everything or else they would not have attached the traits to it. I do not like how they went about it but I agree with them that there needs to be something to entice the players.

We are all only new players once. After you have gotten 100% map completion the magic starts to where off for many players. Eventually everyone reaches the point where wondering whimsically through the world doesn’t cut it and the excitement is gone. At that point people will start looking at rewards and what they enjoy doing the most. After you get 100% map completion and 100% Explorer achievement the only reason to get 100% map completion again is for the completionist inside you and the rewards, as there is literally nothing left to ".

Brutality.9631:

Yoroiookami.3485:

I just want to get some enjoyment out of completing a map, it isn’t much to ask, is it?

This game has the best mmo world map available in terms of exploration, if you aren’t enjoying it for the sake of enjoying it, you’re doing it wrong. You shouldn’t need a reward in addition to an hour of fun, other than the RNG loot anyone’s subject to.

One of the biggest problems with this game is all the people complaining for handouts, they gotta rework the boss loot a hundred times instead of releasing content for people who enjoy good views, graphics, and enemies.

“Make it worth my time!” Gaming IS the reward, I freakin hate these tools. Learn a real skill or hobby if you want it to pay off, then you can enjoy guild wars casually in between all that.

Yes, we can all agree that this game has a pretty neat world exploration. For a person who is so stronly against farming enemies etc. you seem to not like my idea of giving those players some other things to do. Like exploring maps multiple times.
You also very clearly didn’t read the entire topic, as I’ve stated multiple times that there’s nothing wrong with expecting a fair reward for achieving something.
As it is, people who mindlessly grind bosses/dungeons get plenty of rewards, while people who enjoy exploring the maps(which vary a lot) don’t really get anything.
I don’t expect handouts, I expect a reward that would mean something to me. Especially that I finished the entire world in GW2 once already. If you have a problem with that, then I guess you actually do like mindless grinding?

kolompi.1287:

Seems to me like most of the people who complained about the rewards not being enough have already explored the world once.

The beautiful thing is, you don’t have to explore it on other characters. You didn’t even have to explore it once. You don’t find it rewarding enough to spend time on it? Don’t do it. If you like exploring, you won’t do it for the material rewards anyway, but for the sake of exploring or to satisfy your completionist side.

As I’ve mentioned. You don’t have to do anything multiple times, but people still do them just for the rewards. I would like some alternatives. I’d like a reason to do those maps again. What’s wrong with that?

If you’re a completionist the reward is in achieving completion.

It’s why I’ve been here since launch and still have unexplored waypoints/large chunks of maps, etc. It’s not my style, and I have no need and I am happy that I have no need to explore via a long grind every little tiny detail of every map. Games that reward too much for doing things like that in my honest opinion are boring. Content is something which should be designed to be explored when the need arises, or when the player feels motivated to do so just for the sake of doing so. I’ll get there eventually if I have to. Otherwise, I’m doing what I want to be doing, not grinding away at something I deem boring because it gives me money/items/etc. which have a meaningful impact on the game or my performance as a player. It also extends the longevity of the game’s content. There are things I might discover a year from now for the first time that have been around since launch. I’m cool with being out of the know of world lore for this reason.

EXP rewards could go up, sure, but there’s no reason to reward map completion/exploration on a static and unchanging world. Asking or significant rewards is like going out into the woods expecting to find lost treasures. Ultimately, the exploration, hike, or whatever may be the reason for doing so should be the reward.

kolompi.1287:

But that’s how it works. It was like that with dungeon rewards, champion loot, everything. The rewards at any given time seem to be not enough.

There’s no guarantee that that’s how it will work. Is the point.

Do people often want more? Yes, as a species that is inherently imperfect, we tend to keep wanting stuff that is closer to perfection. Does that mean that in every instance (in this case, an increase in rewards for one aspect of a video game) doing so is unwarranted because people will want more?

Not necessarily. We have to look at the rewards as objectively as we can and examine whether they are an issue. I don’t see people saying “champ bags are not worth it,” but there are people saying “map completion isn’t worth it.” That single difference alone should mean something.

The bottom line is, are the rewards in line with Anet’s goals? We can’t answer that question ourselves. We can only tell them whether the rewards are working for us and our goals (which means something concerning their goals, even if it is sometimes little).

Brother Grimm.5176:

kolompi.1287:

You know, all these ideas don’t matter much, simply because if they were implemented, three months from now someone would start a thread about how these rewards are not enough for the drag that is map completion and there should be more.

Not to mention what the player that has map completion on 10+ characters would say if all those additional rewards were not retroactive……(or what other players would post about it being “unfair” if they DID get all the additional rewards).

I think that they should get the rewards retroactively, and I only have one character that did map completion. They gave rewards retroactively for achievement points. Some people may be upset with it, but some people are always going to be upset no matter what they do.

Vayne.8563:

Giving more XP for map completion, when you consider every vista, POI and heart gives you XP already would make map completion over-rewarding.

There are people who really don’t like map completing who would feel pressured to if you made the rewards so vast.

If you don’t like it, don’t do it. If you do like it do it. That’s pretty much the way the whole game is set up.

That’s why the rewards are set the way they’re set.

By the same logic, we should nerf dungeon rewards. Some of the best ways to earn gold, a whooping 70% exp on completion, per path. Plus the unique untradable skins you can buy for tokens.

Some people don’t like dungeons, should we nerf them so those people aren’t pressured to complete them?

Also, the game isn’t set up in a way of you just do stuff for the fun of it. Anet being MMO veterans are very aware that MMOs are highly reward driven.

The only thing that bothers me about map completion is the world vs world component.
Even though I compete in world vs world, it can take a considerable amount of time to get all the vista’s, poi’s & skill points.
For anyone not interested in this form of the game, map completion must be a nightmare.

Why not drop world vs world from map completion?

VaaCrow.3076:

PSX.9250:

Once is enough for me. Can’t bear to do map completion in WvW again..

/shiver

I love it when you pver’s come to wvw looking for map, the feels i get when i gank you and you pt me. /flex

Wow! Not checked in for a few days. Haha.

My “endgame” is WvW so i’m far from being a PvE’er just looking to do only map completion.. Gank all you want, i can easily gank you back

I recommend to add at least 20 gold , and you can add gems, like 100 gems, that should fix reward for World Completion.
Rewards are really not motivating to do… Only motivation is legendary weapon, if you want it, you can complete world map…

Astral Projections.7320:

You forgot to add that when you are completely done with all maps you’ll get
2 gifts of exploration (which you’ll never use unless you make a Legendary)
A gold star (which is invisible to you so you have to ask someone else if it’s there)
A title (also invisible to you)

Who can ask for more? ^^

Yep, cannot wait for the rewards revamp we’ve all heard about.

I’ve done map completion a couple times and I agree that the rewards are lacking.

The first time is fun, the second time is boring, the third time is a pain, and it gets worse after that. For the explorers who want to discover new lands and find new things this is all we got in game.

Law of Diminishing Returns.

Vayne.8563:

There are people who really don’t like map completing who would feel pressured to if you made the rewards so vast.

Please explain the psychology behind how people would feel “pressured” to do map completion if the reward was high, because that makes absolutely no sense to me.

Kasima.8143:

Vayne.8563:

There are people who really don’t like map completing who would feel pressured to if you made the rewards so vast.

Please explain the psychology behind how people would feel “pressured” to do map completion if the reward was high, because that makes absolutely no sense to me.

I think Vayne’s point is that a significant portion of the player base performs the tasks that provide the greatest rewards. If you make world exploration too profitable in the gold-per-hour metric, then it will compete with other forms of reward farming.

That being said, I think good developers use rewards to encourage beneficial behaviors over less desirable behaviors.

Upping the rewards for map completion (not zone completion as I feel those rewards are already pretty high) would encourage more exploration completion on alts. That distributes the player base, reenergizes the various zones, etc. All good things.

So while rewarding more for world completion may put pressure on the player base, it’s a good pressure because the results are a more vibrant, diverse gaming experience.

The opposite is what you see in some of the farm-heavy areas of the game, which are debatably undesirable.

EDIT: Unrelated, I find it funny that some players say increasing the rewards will create pressure — while other players say “don’t like it, don’t do it, nobody is forcing you”. Those to positions are not compatible lol.

EDIT 2: Also unrelated, if you feel the rewards are sufficient as a player, then increasing the rewards certainly won’t ruin or demean your experience — at least in general this is true.

Belidos.3704:

Whatever happened to the simple satisfaction of completion, back in the day it was like yay I finished it but now days it’s like ok I finished it what do I get …

Belidos.3704:

Whatever happened to the simple satisfaction of completion, back in the day it was like yay I finished it but now days it’s like ok I finished it what do I get …

Here’s the difference. Back in the day, what you were playing (mostly) were platformer games. Platformer games gave a constant challenge, an immediate sense of progression and an immediate sense of achievement, all at the same time, as you beat individual levels. Platformers weren’t just some variation of the same thing from the start to the end. All levels were very different so even if you were on your 20th run of playing Super Mario World or Donkey Kong, it was still fun. So there was actually enjoyment in the process. Progress was also much more relevant. You couldn’t skip a level ahead unless you had beaten a previous level. Often, you would look forward to playing specific levels, which was another motivator to move forward. So when you finally got to the end, you really felt all that progress and constant challenge that you had to go through and had fun doing it.

Map completion has none of those things.
It is not challenging. It is very, very, very grindy.
There is little variation. It is very, very, very grindy.
There is no real sense of progression due to the lack of linearity. All there is for a sense of progression is a percentage in the upper left corner of the world map.
The sense of achievement/accomplishment isn’t exactly high because the process is grindy. I don’t know for others, but I find myself looking at what I have yet to do as if it were a burden, rather than at what I have done with fond memories of how fun it was.

My gripe is with heart quests. Kill a lot of this. Collect a lot of that and bring them back. Go to various things and press F to activate. Very few hearts deviate from that. There is very little challenge and very little variation. I would take fewer, more complex, multi-step and more challenging heart quests over a lot of the same boring crap. I would also make quests that have other quests as prerequisites but aren’t dynamic event chains to give some sense of progression and interconnectedness. Heart quests should also be sending us all over the world to do or fetch things, especially in higher level zones. They could also be used in lower level zones as a vector for map completion by sending you to different areas. This would help make the process of completing a map less grindy, since map completion would naturally happen as you get sent to the 4 corners of Tyria to complete those quests. For example, a norn in Wayfarer Foothills could ask you for a big piece of cooked boar meat that you’d fetch from Carthage’s hunting lodge in Queensdale. Once there, you’d have to kill the giant boar to collect a piece of meat that Carthage would cook for you, maybe requiring honey from that bee hive lady in Queensdale as an ingredient. Then you’d bring the piece of meat back to the norn.

(The heart where you have to throw snowballs at kids in Wayfarer Foothills is my personal favourite. The message you get when you knockdown a kid is hilarious. Their parents thank you for it! Hahahaha)

Vayne.8563:

The game doesn’t revolve around what any one person wants. It revolves around what’s good for the game as a whole.

People want dungeons, particularly hard dungeons to be more rewarding than they are, but from experience, I know people in other games who hated raiding but ended up raiding because it was the only way to get better gear.

Making something more profitable (when it’s already profitable to many), just because it’s not profitable to a few people is a bad way to run a railroad.

The question is (and it’s always the question) is how many people feel the reward isn’t good enough. Because so far from this thread, it doesn’t look like you have a ton of support.

You fail to see the point completely.
There are people who find map completion boring as hell. I am one of them and there are many like me. That, in a game, “for the good of the game as a whole” as you like to see it, is a problem.
It is a problem that can be addressed either by making the process of map completion less grindy and more fun by itself, or by increasing the final reward to make their boring map completion worthwhile.

Kasima.8143:

Belidos.3704:

Whatever happened to the simple satisfaction of completion, back in the day it was like yay I finished it but now days it’s like ok I finished it what do I get …

Belidos.3704:

Whatever happened to the simple satisfaction of completion, back in the day it was like yay I finished it but now days it’s like ok I finished it what do I get …

Here’s the difference. Back in the day, what you were playing (mostly) were platformer games. Platformer games gave a constant challenge, an immediate sense of progression and an immediate sense of achievement, all at the same time, as you beat individual levels. Platformers weren’t just some variation of the same thing from the start to the end. All levels were very different so even if you were on your 20th run of playing Super Mario World or Donkey Kong, it was still fun. So there was actually enjoyment in the process. Progress was also much more relevant. You couldn’t skip a level ahead unless you had beaten a previous level. Often, you would look forward to playing specific levels, which was another motivator to move forward. So when you finally got to the end, you really felt all that progress and constant challenge that you had to go through and had fun doing it.

Map completion has none of those things.
It is not challenging. It is very, very, very grindy.
There is little variation. It is very, very, very grindy.
There is no real sense of progression due to the lack of linearity. All there is for a sense of progression is a percentage in the upper left corner of the world map.
The sense of achievement/accomplishment isn’t exactly high because the process is grindy. I don’t know for others, but I find myself looking at what I have yet to do as if it were a burden, rather than at what I have done with fond memories of how fun it was.

My gripe is with heart quests. Kill a lot of this. Collect a lot of that and bring them back. Go to various things and press F to activate. Very few hearts deviate from that. There is very little challenge and very little variation. I would take fewer, more complex, multi-step and more challenging heart quests over a lot of the same boring crap. I would also make quests that have other quests as prerequisites but aren’t dynamic event chains to give some sense of progression and interconnectedness. Heart quests should be sending us all over the world to do or fetch things, especially in higher level zones.

(The heart where you have to throw snowballs at kids in Wayfarer Foothills is my personal favourite. The message you get when you knockdown a kid is hilarious. Their parents thank you for it! Hahahaha)

I feel like changing heart quests would definitely benefit the experience. Though as far as I know, we’re going in the opposite direction. There will probably never be any challenging heart quests, as some players feel lost. I also feel like the developers are scared of implementing challenges in PvE.

One of my favourite heart quests is turning frogs into frog juice (If I remember correctly) and as Kasima mentioned – snowball one is really fun to do.

Thank you all for stating your opinions by the way. =)

I just got my first World Completion a couple of days ago… and although I was happy I finally completed it, the fact that I couldn’t even see my title or star kinda made me feel like I got nothing for achieving such a big goal. The two items for the legendary is there and all, but that’s not something I’ll be using any time soon, it’s just more work.

It would have been nice to be able to pick something, like pick a bunch of crafting materials. That would have been really nice. Or maybe get to pick an armor set or something.

Dear Anet,
I have completed Metrica Province… soooo why don’t I have endgame yet? I don’t get you’re reasoning in making this such a grind when clearly this game was meant to be done with after a few 100%’ers pfffft Anet you noobs…

kfc.8170:

Dear Anet,
I have completed Metrica Province… soooo why don’t I have endgame yet? I don’t get you’re reasoning in making this such a grind when clearly this game was meant to be done with after a few 100%’ers pfffft Anet you noobs…

W…what?

Map completion itself it fine, I think the rewards are appropriate, but 100% world completion is very much lacking in the rewards department.