Guild Wars 2

This ‘leveling’ updates pretty much turned me off to making any new characters :\

I was kind of tempted to see what changes were made to rangers, but if we’re forced to go through all these level gates.. then I’m not even gonna bother.

It’s all a real disappointment, when the GW2 first launched I was able to understand how leveling/what to do just fine. I’d even look forward to unlocking skills ASAP so I can come up with different tactics – as I was leveling up – not later on.

And leveling gating the armor dyes/wardrobe just killed it big time for me. Wasn’t one of the key features of having the wardrobe and dyes updated so we can customize ‘when and how’ we wanted? ..Why even bother ever having that update if you’re just going to level gate it now?

Sad to say, but this update has way too many unappealing features than any of the previous ones. If none of these ‘changes’ are changed back, then I’ll have to drop this game.

HikariKnight.2156:

If i were to start the game today as a new player my first impression would be "whats different with this compared to other mmos?

Uh, there is no difference between this game and other MMO’s. The only real difference now are the dynamic events, which are still much better than traditional quests. But other than those, there is really no difference between the current version of Guild Wars 2 and any other action-combat MMO. This game is just like any sub-par free-to-play MMO except that it’s not free-to-play and it has some decent voice acting. I mean, I guess there is the Living Story when that restarts, but the Living Story isn’t very good anyway so it’s hardly a selling point (regardless of the fact that it’s used it pretty much every advertisement for the game)

Lastly i would like to point out that the new dodging tutorial (which i dont really get why was added?) along with a combo tutorial (as i am still abit unsure how combos work) could instead be worked into the early story as part of a training mission or something that can be skipped but does reward you if you do it.

You can’t combo at low levels because you don’t have the skills to do it, especially under this new system. Well, I guess a Guardian wielding a hammer can combo even with skills 4 and 5 locked. But for many professions you usually need skill 4 or 5 or a utility skill or a combination of them to be able to do any combos without needing other players to help out.

Oh, I forgot about one important thing. There is still a difference between this game and other MMO’s. The difference is THE INCREDIBLY WELL-DESIGNED JUMPING PUZZLES. So if you like to fall to your death after falling to your death, this is the game for you. The jumping puzzles are fantastic. As for the rest of the game, it’s very mediocre now. Maybe WvWvW is still good if Arenanet hasn’t managed to ruin that yet.

Seriously, though, the jumping puzzles in this game are frustrating in the best and worst ways. Try them out. You won’t regret it, or you will, depending on how much patience you have.

I have to say, after playing the new system for about an hour on a lvl 3 character I had just started a few days ago, I really enjoyed the new system. I feel like I hated the trait change, and now that I’ve almost unlocked all of them, it was kind of nice. (Although that was on one character…lol Anyway back to topic) This new system does make the beginning faceroll, but at the same time you really get time to learn about what each ability does. Now, I have never needed this kind of explanation in game, I generally research a bit about the games I buy, so I knew about many of the systems in place before playing, and had a super easy time learning gw2. I’d say it was one of the easiest games to get into for me.

However, with this new change, leveling at the start before get all your skills is a breeze. You are focusing on the scenery, and taking in the atmosphere of the game. For new players it is a much more rewarding experience. And at the same time, the time-gating is mostly gone within a few hours of play. The only real delay on skill acquisition (in terms of perceived pace) are utility and elite skills.

Well, I may have been expecting the worst when I tried this update, as I watched some of the funny videos online about the changes before trying them. To my surprise, they felt they would really help a newbie, and it gave me a fresh approach to leveling, that seemed quick and easy, so I can get to lvl 10 and start the game for real. It was like gw2lite, the leveling experience.

zenleto.6179:

mobtek.3075:

As someone with 11 alts the new leveling changes are terrible.
I’ve had so much fun making new alts and learning and discovering things about races, classes and different Personal Story tracks on my own that were very rewarding.
That sense of fun and exploration is now stuffed.
The gods help new players coming into the game. This is what WoW did, grind levels until you get the changes that make playing fun. It was boring as hell and new players will find it boring as well.

Have you tried it though? Just getting from 2 to 3 to 4 etc is pretty quick and harmless. If its the spacing of skills then yeah that may turn into a grind.

I’ll still be making characters though lol, its my thing.

51? I have 17 and I though I was an addict. Sheesh!! You win.

Wait, are you saying that people who have leveled to level 80, when they make a new character, they won’t have to go through those unlocks like that? So what is supposed to happen for people with level 80s leveling an alt?

Even that would still be pretty terrible, because we wouldn’t be able to in good conscience recommend the game to a friend. I mean, I can’t tell one of my friends “no, it’s a great game, you just have to grind to 80 first, and then your second character can actually be almost as fun to level as the ones I made!”

According to the list at the start of the thread, 24 unlocks the final F4 skill. Still, for Eles, this is a quarter of their basic weapon skills that is locked until then.

For Mesmers, Shatter skills are nice, but there are builds that don’t need them, and most Shatter builds need Traits to be decent, so there’s an argument there to lock them away for a while.

Warriors and Thieves have full access to their class skill at level 4 (only F1).
For Necros, this means no Death Shroud until that level though.

Engies will have access to F4, but since the final support slot is at 35, it’s technically locked until then.

Guardians have their Virtues at 22, which is also kinda late.

Ranger Pet commands are locked until 22 as well, Pet Swap until 24, and according to videos, they don’t have access to Pet Management either at the start.

Did anyone actually test this? How did anyone look at this and imagine it was a good idea?

When slower allows someone to learn the class.

This doesn’t let you learn the class though, it lets you play for a couple hours, get bored with pressing 1, and then quitting to play something else. How does quitting lead to learning the class? I learned the classes plenty well under the old methods. If they want to implement better documentation and tutorial elements then that’s great, do that! But making it take more time to unlock things doesn’t teach anyone anything.

Let’s put it this way – unlocking Skill 2 took killing 2-3 enemies (or so). Now, killing 2-3 enemies (or so) gets you to level 2 (ok, actually, getting to level 2 just requires you finish the opening sequence – which is more like 6 enemies or so). But, more or less the same.

I would usually have my first three skills unlocked by the end of the tutorial, and my first 5 by the time I hit level 5 or so. Now it’s 10?

As a new player (got the game exactly 1 week ago and have 1 lvl80 and 1 lvl48 character) i feel this change is pretty much a punch in the face.

I’m very sorry for you, this used to be a VERY fun game before they started ruining it. Really it’s partly your fault though, you should have started playing earlier before they decided to start driving people away for some reason. If you’d started even six months ago you could have avoided the worst of it. Too late now.

Anyone know if buying gems is level gated? I only ask because my latest engineer just hit level 27, and I was apparently finally able to unlock my Currency Exchange in the TP interface.

That would be fair. Maybe if they level gated the gem store to only level 60+ then they would care more about what players have to do to slog through there now.

ColinJohanson.2394:

I just want to quickly add, there are some errors on this chart of how stuff is unlocking, as well as 1st character vs. account unlocks when some of these systems were carried between regions. We’re trying to identify what happened and repair those things assigned the wrong account/character fields, as well as levels.

Unless you guys think you can fix this in less than a day maybe someone should post a description of what it supposed to happen? That could squash a lot of the threads about the issue. Letting the emotions simmer until it boils over instead seems like a terrible approach.

Khisanth.2948:

ColinJohanson.2394:

I just want to quickly add, there are some errors on this chart of how stuff is unlocking, as well as 1st character vs. account unlocks when some of these systems were carried between regions. We’re trying to identify what happened and repair those things assigned the wrong account/character fields, as well as levels.

Unless you guys think you can fix this in less than a day maybe someone should post a description of what it supposed to happen? That could squash a lot of the threads about the issue. Letting the emotions simmer until it boils over instead seems like a terrible approach.

This is starting to feel like a “New Coke” situation.

Great. This is even worse.

So an experienced player trying to clear maps on a new alt has to blindly run around looking for POIs and Vistas until they unlock the ability to make them visible on the map?

And a new player can run into vistas and PoIs and activate them without any indication of what they are, what they mean, why they aren’t on the map, and whether that’s something they’re supposed to be doing until they unlock the ability to make them visible on the map?

Perfect. So it inconveniences veterans and confuses newbies. A+.

Zyrhan.3180:

Great. This is even worse.

So an experienced player trying to clear maps on a new alt has to blindly run around looking for POIs and Vistas until they unlock the ability to make them visible on the map?

And a new player can run into vistas and PoIs and activate them without any indication of what they are, what they mean, why they aren’t on the map, and whether that’s something they’re supposed to be doing until they unlock the ability to make them visible on the map?

Perfect. So it inconveniences veterans and confuses newbies. A+.

A new player wouldn’t necessarily expect them to be on the map. They’d see something, interact with it, it would pop up, they’d say cool.

For experienced players by the time you’re high enough level to finish the zone, they’re unlocked anyway. I played a new character for half an hour and they were unlocked. It took me an hour to unlock skill points though.

Vayne.8563:

Zyrhan.3180:

Great. This is even worse.

So an experienced player trying to clear maps on a new alt has to blindly run around looking for POIs and Vistas until they unlock the ability to make them visible on the map?

And a new player can run into vistas and PoIs and activate them without any indication of what they are, what they mean, why they aren’t on the map, and whether that’s something they’re supposed to be doing until they unlock the ability to make them visible on the map?

Perfect. So it inconveniences veterans and confuses newbies. A+.

A new player wouldn’t necessarily expect them to be on the map. They’d see something, interact with it, it would pop up, they’d say cool.

For experienced players by the time you’re high enough level to finish the zone, they’re unlocked anyway. I played a new character for half an hour and they were unlocked. It took me an hour to unlock skill points though.

This new tutorial scheme assumes that new players need to have their hand held and gently shown every single feature of the game, preferably at a pace of about one or two features per level. Having game features that you can interact with and actually get LESS explanation and information now than they did when they at least appeared on the zone map is absolutely a failure of this (bad) design paradigm.

Regardless of when you can unlock them in practice, it’s a completely ridiculous burden to put on experienced players trying to level an alt. It’s a pointless inconvenience that serves no purpose and actively hampers players trying to play the game, no matter how little it does so. Even if they absolutely must keep this new gated unlock system, there is absolutely no good reason for vistas and PoIs to not be account-wide unlocks once you get to them once.

ColinJohanson.2394:

I just want to quickly add, there are some errors on this chart of how stuff is unlocking, as well as 1st character vs. account unlocks when some of these systems were carried between regions. We’re trying to identify what happened and repair those things assigned the wrong account/character fields, as well as levels.

What is your objective here if it isn’t to make the game fun to play? Add new skills and features perhaps, but don’t remove and time-gate what we were used to.

Levelling felt slow enough already for people that had already a level 80 character. Now everything is locked to them even through they can play the game eyes closed (a game that is quite frankly already too easy).

Truth is however that it’s probably not more fun for new players as well, and that’s where it hurts the most; you underestimate the average gamer ability to discover a new game.
When I play a MMO I don’t want to be spoon fed, I want to discover; unlock everything besides a few special skills and let me figure out the rest, it’s a question of having a choice. You had done it right the first time (besides the text tutorials which were omitting important things like blasting fields). Why break something what was working fine?

Seriously, the decisions you take at Anet sometimes:
Why did you make this awesome WvW map (EotM) and then took it out of the PPT rotation and merged all the servers by a random color system?
Why can’t we do a straight 5vs5 and 8 vs 8 PvP GvG style without trebs and canons in the way?
Why do you add a siege disabler that breaks all the mechanic of what was already functioning well?
Why is there a million backpack to choose from but no guild capes?
Why has SAB, an addon worth an “expansion of the year” award, abandoned and not available in the game anymore?
…

Zyrhan.3180:

This new tutorial scheme assumes that new players need to have their hand held and gently shown every single feature of the game, preferably at a pace of about one or two features per level. Having game features that you can interact with and actually get LESS explanation and information now than they did when they at least appeared on the zone map is absolutely a failure of this (bad) design paradigm.

I agree with this. I think the help system of FF14 . . . as much as I want to burn it alive . . . really sort of encapsulated the idea because every time you needed to learn something new – bam, pop up window you need to dismiss or read. Which you can go back and look up later if you need to reference it.

Regardless of when you can unlock them in practice, it’s a completely ridiculous burden to put on experienced players trying to level an alt.

Also agreed.

can alts not require level gating?
completely ridiculous as this is to support new players

Peow peow.2189:

can alts not require level gating?
completely ridiculous as this is to support new players

They should bring back the old system and call it “Hard Mode”

Remember this: “‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’ In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun.” ~Colin Johanson from the GW2 Manifesto

Well, he kinda did honor his word, after we swung the sword now we get to wait 3 whole levels before we can swing it again. Otherwise it would have been too confusing.

Kythan Myr.4719:

Peow peow.2189:

can alts not require level gating?
completely ridiculous as this is to support new players

They should bring back the old system and call it “Hard Mode”

Remember this: “‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’ In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun.” ~Colin Johanson from the GW2 Manifesto

Well, he kinda did honor his word, after we swung the sword now we get to wait 3 whole levels before we can swing it again. Otherwise it would have been too confusing.

I love how people keep bringing up a four year old video (four years!) and still not understand what Colin is talking about.

Taking lines from the middle of a paragraph out of context in the process and trying to make it say something other than it was intended to say.

WatchTheShow.7203:

I really think level gating the profession F1-F4 skills was a terrible idea. Rangers will not have control over their pet until level 24. So every time a mob hits the ranger and the pet begins attacking, there is no way to recall it. When the ranger begins fighting something else, the pet will disengage, drag the previous mob with it, and engage the new target. Because most pets can’t handle 2 mobs at a time as a low level, it will die. Since rangers can’t switch pets until level 24, the ranger will become the new punching bag for the mobs.

You get your pet pant at level 7, and you get the Alt Skill shortly after that . . . Why are people blowing this outta proportion?

The magicalmike youtube video also shows wardrobe/dyes/minis/outfits locked which he said was until level 6. Not sure if this is a bug or if its one of those 1st character vs alt on long term account.

Vayne.8563:

I love how people keep bringing up a four year old video (four years!) and still not understand what Colin is talking about.

Taking lines from the middle of a paragraph out of context in the process and trying to make it say something other than it was intended to say.

Well, actually sir I did quote most of the paragraph. I only left out the final sentence, because I liked ending on the No one finds it fun. The last sentence being: “We want to change the way that people view combat.”

Still don’t see how it is out of context. Because the new locks to weapons, skills, traits, changes to mobs, events, and personal story are all very much combat related. It is all very much a new grind introduced with the appearance of being more “user-friendly”. Which is what he was referring too as being different with this game orignally. Which, indeed, it was when I began playing 2 years ago.

So yes, even tho it was four whole years ago, and yes I excluded that wee little bit of sentence from the entire paragraph, it is still relevant. If you have a vision to do something different, and you make a “manifesto” ( a declaration of claim, a mission) you should stick with it.

Kythan Myr.4719:

Vayne.8563:

I love how people keep bringing up a four year old video (four years!) and still not understand what Colin is talking about.

Taking lines from the middle of a paragraph out of context in the process and trying to make it say something other than it was intended to say.

Well, actually sir I did quote most of the paragraph. I only left out the final sentence, because I liked ending on the No one finds it fun. The last sentence being: “We want to change the way that people view combat.”

Still don’t see how it is out of context. Because the new locks to weapons, skills, traits, changes to mobs, events, and personal story are all very much combat related. It is all very much a new grind introduced with the appearance of being more “user-friendly”. Which is what he was referring too as being different with this game orignally. Which, indeed, it was when I began playing 2 years ago.

So yes, even tho it was four whole years ago, and yes I excluded that wee little bit of sentence from the entire paragraph, it is still relevant. If you have a vision to do something different, and you make a “manifesto” ( a declaration of claim, a mission) you should stick with it.

This whole paragraph starts and ends with combat and uses the word grind in its most traditional sense.

That is to say, Anet doesn’t believe in grinding for levels. That’s the original definition of grind, it’s supported in Wikipedia if you search on grind video games, and that’s what he’s talking about, which is why he mentions combat.

In many old MMOs there weren’t enough quests or things to do to level you and you had to kill stuff repeatedly until you got high enough to go to the next quest hub. That was grinding back in the day and from the context it’s what he’s talking about.

He’s talking about getting through leveling to get to raiding, not going through a level 1-15 tutorial.

Everything in Guild Wars 2 still gives experience. You can still go to PvP at level 2 or WvW or EoTM and level if you want. You can still craft. You don’t have to grind by doing one thing. That’s what he’s talking about.

The fact that stuff unlocks as you level as part of some new teaching process is not what he’s talking about. That’s why I say it’s out of context.

They should bring back the old system and call it “Hard Mode”

Or just do what they did with SAB, return the old version as “Normal Mode” and keep the new version as “Infantile Mode.”

So if you love MMORPGs, you should check out Guild Wars 2. But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill;(it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun;) and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee. -Mike O’Brien
[https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/]

Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinding_]

Grinding is the act of playing in a repetitive, unexciting, or otherwise un-enjoyable fashion in order to make faster progress.
[http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/1583/rethinking_the_mmo.php?page=3]

Seems to me that Kythan Myr.4719 was not as incorrect as you try to make them appear to be Vayne.

ColinJohanson.2394:

I just want to quickly add, there are some errors on this chart of how stuff is unlocking, as well as 1st character vs. account unlocks when some of these systems were carried between regions. We’re trying to identify what happened and repair those things assigned the wrong account/character fields, as well as levels.

Thanks for the info Colin. Is there hope that the new system would work this way only for your first character and every alt after that could proceed with the game normally without such level gated unlocks?

Stop talking about how new players experience these new systems. You don’t know, you’re biased.

Only Anet will know based on the metrics.

Paradox.1380:

A handy list I made after making a new character on a newbie account I bought during the sale.

What You Can Do At Level 1:
Dodge
Dye Armor
Harvest Materials (go into the city when you get outta the first story and buy some Gathering Tools form a crafting master)
Craft Items (just talk to the guy like before and learn the discipline)
Use the Trading Post
You can Visit Vistas AND PoIs you just aren’t directed to them.
WvW or PvP (Use Hot Keys to open the panels or go to LA from Home City to access the Asura Gates)
Can Use Wardrobe just open it up
Can use Minis
Can Access your Bank/Guild Bank
Can Access the Guild Panel Hit G
Can do Jumping Puzzles (I did Morgans Spiral at level 3 and the secret troll one at level 2 just to see)
Can Map Complete and get rewards for it.

What You Can’t Do:
The Combat stuff is true and locked behind a leveling curve that is significantly increased (It only took me 30 minutes to get to level 10 where all my weapon skills for ALL weapons were unlocked)
At level 13 about 45 min into a new character I unlocked my first Utility skill and as such unlocked Skill Point Challenges. Also, you can use Knowledge Scrolls at any level to learn new healing skills if you don’t like the first one.
You also unlock the 1-10 Personal Story at ten and can do the whole arc at once. I did that at level 13 and it got me to level 17 and have a LOT of nice goodies and included the Black Lion Key.
Diving Goggles in Starter Zones (Item bundle, this one is weird but meh)

This! Up here!

Only thing that is level gated is hints/tutorial menu for each feature function/ visibility on map in game.

Get it through your skulls! Maybe you all need these changes, as you don’t listen?

oshilator.4681:

The NPE is insulting. What happened to the stance that the China release wouldn’t affect us?

These are, as many have said, changes that almost nobody wanted or asked for.

As a veteran player since beta, I shouldn’t have to wade through a hand-holding-pile-of-garbage to level a new alt. And neither should anybody else.

Please roll this back.

I agree with this, I have friends that are brand new to this game and I’m helping them (using my alts.) But this new patch totally made them almost quit. My friends have never played much before this patch; they already are so done with it coming back to find this level gating crud.

Roll. It. Back.

However, the only cool things are the collections and the minis’ wardrobe.

Xillllix.3485:

ColinJohanson.2394:

I just want to quickly add, there are some errors on this chart of how stuff is unlocking, as well as 1st character vs. account unlocks when some of these systems were carried between regions. We’re trying to identify what happened and repair those things assigned the wrong account/character fields, as well as levels.

What is your objective here if it isn’t to make the game fun to play? Add new skills and features perhaps, but don’t remove and time-gate what we were used to.

Levelling felt slow enough already for people that had already a level 80 character. Now everything is locked to them even through they can play the game eyes closed (a game that is quite frankly already too easy).

Truth is however that it’s probably not more fun for new players as well, and that’s where it hurts the most; you underestimate the average gamer ability to discover a new game.
When I play a MMO I don’t want to be spoon fed, I want to discover; unlock everything besides a few special skills and let me figure out the rest, it’s a question of having a choice. You had done it right the first time (besides the text tutorials which were omitting important things like blasting fields). Why break something what was working fine?

Seriously, the decisions you take at Anet sometimes:
Why did you make this awesome WvW map (EotM) and then took it out of the PPT rotation and merged all the servers by a random color system?
Why can’t we do a straight 5vs5 and 8 vs 8 PvP GvG style without trebs and canons in the way?
Why do you add a siege disabler that breaks all the mechanic of what was already functioning well?
Why is there a million backpack to choose from but no guild capes?
Why has SAB, an addon worth an “expansion of the year” award, abandoned and not available in the game anymore?
…

+1

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

Paradox.1380:

A handy list I made after making a new character on a newbie account I bought during the sale.

What You Can Do At Level 1:
Dodge
Dye Armor
Harvest Materials (go into the city when you get outta the first story and buy some Gathering Tools form a crafting master)
Craft Items (just talk to the guy like before and learn the discipline)
Use the Trading Post
You can Visit Vistas AND PoIs you just aren’t directed to them.
WvW or PvP (Use Hot Keys to open the panels or go to LA from Home City to access the Asura Gates)
Can Use Wardrobe just open it up
Can use Minis
Can Access your Bank/Guild Bank
Can Access the Guild Panel Hit G
Can do Jumping Puzzles (I did Morgans Spiral at level 3 and the secret troll one at level 2 just to see)
Can Map Complete and get rewards for it.

What You Can’t Do:
The Combat stuff is true and locked behind a leveling curve that is significantly increased (It only took me 30 minutes to get to level 10 where all my weapon skills for ALL weapons were unlocked)
At level 13 about 45 min into a new character I unlocked my first Utility skill and as such unlocked Skill Point Challenges. Also, you can use Knowledge Scrolls at any level to learn new healing skills if you don’t like the first one.
You also unlock the 1-10 Personal Story at ten and can do the whole arc at once. I did that at level 13 and it got me to level 17 and have a LOT of nice goodies and included the Black Lion Key.
Diving Goggles in Starter Zones (Item bundle, this one is weird but meh)

This! Up here!

Only thing that is level gated is hints/tutorial menu for each feature function/ visibility on map in game.

Get it through your skulls! Maybe you all need these changes, as you don’t listen?

Sadly, every where I have posted this I have been ignored. What do I have to do? Make a video that disproves the other one? That will probably get ignored too.

Arcanine.3928:

Colin you need to revert the changes to leveling you introduced in to this game. They do not solve the issues new players have, they insult the veteran players, and were not thoroughly tested and properly implemented.

- A 2 year, incredibly disappointed supporter of ArenaNet

AMEN! The entire change to the leveling system is a cold slap in the face to veteran players. The new system is so bad, I gave up on leveling up my new character, I’ll use it as a mule. I will enjoy my already leveled up level 80’s instead. This is the worst change in the history of guild wars, both GW1 and GW2.

ColinJohanson.2394:

I just want to quickly add, there are some errors on this chart of how stuff is unlocking, as well as 1st character vs. account unlocks when some of these systems were carried between regions. We’re trying to identify what happened and repair those things assigned the wrong account/character fields, as well as levels.

The sad thing, Colin, is that nothing here looks like a bug; everything fits together perfectly. We don’t want or need a bug fix here, we want to be able to access our now gated skills and traits (we still haven’t forgotten) on our alts; and new players need to be able to access them to not immediately quit the game and demand a refund. There were some good changes with this update (crafting, wardrobe) and some that had good potential but need some tweaking (collections, trading post), but level gating anything was just plain stupid. The way levelling worked at release was near enough perfect. I don’t really care what data you guys have been given to say that it drives new players away – all of your players at any time in Guild Wars 2’s life were new players and we got through it just fine. Leaving has been due to lack of content, too much focus on the gem store, Living Story and Anet not fixing issues soon enough (for example, Desolation vs Vizunah Square… we lost so many people…).

Best of luck with fixing this latest update, but it needs to be swift and it needs to change the new system completely, not just rearrange a few things. No gamers will pick up this game if it stays for new players, and no gamers will stay if you dumb the game down.

Stop talking about how new players experience these new systems. You don’t know, you’re biased.

Only Anet will know based on the metrics.

I was a new player once, and I’m often a new player in new games. I know which features I found unique and charming that made me play GW2, and they scrapped most of those with this update (for low level players). I know what elements have annoyed me in recent “new games” like Destiny, and ANet has brought the game closer to those elements, like gating way too much of the interface until higher levels, leaving the early game a bit stale. And Destiny at least has shooter controls, so just pulling the trigger is way more exciting than pressing 1-2 for a few levels.

I can’t say for sure exactly what my experience as a “new player” to GW2 would be under this system, but I can say with some reasonable certainty that I would quit before level 20, rather than going on to make the 8 80s I currently have.

Vayne.8563:

Kythan Myr.4719:

Peow peow.2189:

can alts not require level gating?
completely ridiculous as this is to support new players

They should bring back the old system and call it “Hard Mode”

Remember this: “‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’ In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun.” ~Colin Johanson from the GW2 Manifesto

Well, he kinda did honor his word, after we swung the sword now we get to wait 3 whole levels before we can swing it again. Otherwise it would have been too confusing.

I love how people keep bringing up a four year old video (four years!) and still not understand what Colin is talking about.

Taking lines from the middle of a paragraph out of context in the process and trying to make it say something other than it was intended to say.

Months ago.

Vayne.8563:

There’s no actual mention of gear in the paragraph. It ends with the words “we want to change the way people view COMBAT”.

Guess what they made it grindy now?
Before the patch COMBAT was functional to the levelling experience.
Post patch the LEVEL is functional to the combat experience.
If you don’t see anything wrong with this… aaah and I promised to myself to go on memecenter instead of reading your comments, but you posted too much I couln’t skip them all.

Vistas are not locked. They’re visible to level 2 characters, and function as normal.

The icons are a little hard to see, but they’re still perfectly identifiable. Edit: p.s. The icons appear the same way to a level 80 character.

Hang on a second, from looking at this chart are you seriously telling me that profession “F1-F4” abilities are unlocked from level 4, ??, 22 and 24? Are you really telling me that Elementalists get air and earth at 22 and 24? Are you actually saying that Rangers can’t even recall their pet before level 22? Or swap until level 24?

Dear god! This has to be one of the most ridiculous changes I’ve ever seen in any game. The way you delayed getting trait points last feature patch to give the “illusion” of character progression was bad enough but this level gating sure trumps it!

People keep saying that vistas aren’t locked, POI’s aren’t locked. Several things aren’t locked. And it’s true. They are just hidden. But hidden may as well be locked, because the occlusion makes them appear like they aren’t there. The developers are putting something cool away until people have ‘earned’ it, when the earning should be the simple, “What’s that? It looks cool! Let’s go over there!”
The tooltip about it? Great. Lets folks know.
But hiding it is a form of blocking it, even if the block isn’t a lock. Maybe in a focus group getting paid to see the new player experience, this is a thing which helps. But for actual new players, it looks like there is less out there. Who wants to open a game and see… less?
Not to mention the other gating effects. Let’s discuss weapon skills, since those are gated. Who wants to open a new game and see… two skills. One which only heals. The action adventure entry into the game is now less exciting because instead of unlocking power as you go you… have basic attacks. And a heal. And since the heal is nowhere near the basic attack and can’t be moved, well, maybe that even gets missed. So the great introduction to an adventure is… basic attacks.
That’s what level gating is giving us. A lot of new players who see… a game with basic attacks. Even those who don’t walk away right then, they got to hit level 15 to get what they would have had at level 3. Would you want to wait, in ANY game, to get at level 15 the flexibility of having a basic hand of abilities?
Even Go Fish gives more moves in a few moments than the current level gating, and that’s not getting into utilities being backed way down the pipeline and elites locked until halfway through the leveling process.
This is not well done. This is the product of a bad survey conducted on a misfocused focus group combined with trying something new to replace something that was already working great.
And this level gating shouldn’t be fixed. It shouldn’t be looked at. It should not go up for review or debate. This needs to be undone. And if that means losing everything that’s good attached to it, that’s an easy price to pay, because the good attached to this system in no way, shape, or form outweighs the negative, the flawed, and the unfathomably tone-deaf.

I have 36 characters that I count, and three name reservations if we ever get expansions, plus a spare slot. Seventeen are level 80. I know the leveling in this game, and I made character number 36 to try this system from the start, to see the pacing. To try this level gating. This isn’t a minor problem. This isn’t even an adaptable change, as traits were. This is poison in the well, and it needs to be addressed as soon as possible.

It is so much easier to point fingers and make excuses. Rather then put on your big boy pants and except fault.
There has yet to be a release Not riddled with bugs. What is it that the QA team fails to catch such issues. From our point of view it isn’t much!
Being an Original GW1 player I can’t remember this much “bugged” content ever…

Would like a toggle option.

[ X ] Normal Levelling Experience
[ ] I’m quite a simple fellow who doesn’t want a pet to control on his new Ranger in the tutorial area. Please make the game slower paced, and send a Dev to my house to hold my hand while I play.

… in seriousness, I wasn’t going to post in any of these threads. I have 9 L80s, I don’t plan on levelling any more and if Tengu comes out I have enough scrolls to make it L80 instantly. But you know what? I have to register my dislike for this system at least once, just so the objection is there. So here, ArenaNet; I might not care about the NPE where I am concerned, but I object to your changes.

SkiTz.4590:

A lot of these changes just reek of china influence…take a look at china WoW.. same nonsense… if this is the path anet wants to go down, cya.

what happened when WoW was released in China? I do know that Blizzard has lost a huge amount of players in China over the last year… millions.

I seriously hope they just admit that it’s a bad mistake and revert it back to when it was enjoyable to level.

If they remain stubborn about this and stick to how it is currently they are just going to hurt themselves.

Osiris.9217:

So if you love MMORPGs, you should check out Guild Wars 2. But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill;(it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun;) and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee. -Mike O’Brien
[https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/]

Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinding_]

Grinding is the act of playing in a repetitive, unexciting, or otherwise un-enjoyable fashion in order to make faster progress.
[http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/1583/rethinking_the_mmo.php?page=3]

Seems to me that Kythan Myr.4719 was not as incorrect as you try to make them appear to be Vayne.

The main definition is what I was quoting. Which is, get this, the main definition. The paragraph explains exactly what Colin is talking about, further emphasized by him directly explaining it several times at shows around that time.

He’s wrong to bring up a 4 year old video out of context, end story.

anzenketh.3759:

• Adapt Tier Traits (Unlocked at level 30)
• Elite Skill (Unlocked at level 40)
• Master Traits (Unlocked at level 60)
• Grandmaster Traits (Unlocked at level 80)

This sucks for WvW. I’ve got 8 alts (including the one I just started) and despite being a lowbie, I’ve still been pretty darned useful in WvW. These changes make it a lot more difficult to NOT be rally bait.

Immortal.3647:

just revert this kitten to how it was before…. why would you destroy a running system

Because they can.

….. Rangers can’t actually control their pets, one of the main draws of the class, until level 24. Are you freaking kittenting me?

“Underwater Combat (Unlocked at level 8 with underwater weapon skills 1 and 2)”

I can’t swim.
Until level 8.
What the … ?

I mean, I can swim, I guess, but I’ll be drake food. Who seriously thought this was a good idea?

Reyouka.7039:

….. Rangers can’t actually control their pets, one of the main draws of the class, until level 24. Are you freaking kittenting me?

Actually, we barely have control of our pets at level 80. Except for “sit” “heel” and “oh god don’t bring that here”.

I agree about level gating content, complete bull. no. 1 the downed state was NOT overwhelming. (who the hell told you it was?). no. 2 why did you take away the water bucket and feed bags from start in queensdale? (oh crap I know, key farmers used the feed bags.). Little things like that were cool, now you click a button to “tend” (boring). No 3 we know all this crap at beginning was to nerf key farming. Supposedly you can get keys from map completion (I never did, and I got multiple level 80s), daily reward (nope didn’t happen), and rare drops from foes (yea right). But Anet if you think I’m gonna spend real money to buy keys you are crazy. not gonna happen.

Vayne.8563:

Kythan Myr.4719:

Peow peow.2189:

can alts not require level gating?
completely ridiculous as this is to support new players

They should bring back the old system and call it “Hard Mode”

Remember this: “‘Wow, that’s incredible. I’ve never seen anything like that.’ In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. ‘I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.’ That’s great. We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun.” ~Colin Johanson from the GW2 Manifesto

Well, he kinda did honor his word, after we swung the sword now we get to wait 3 whole levels before we can swing it again. Otherwise it would have been too confusing.

I love how people keep bringing up a four year old video (four years!) and still not understand what Colin is talking about.

Taking lines from the middle of a paragraph out of context in the process and trying to make it say something other than it was intended to say.

Now, now, we’ve already been through this. He was talking about how things LOOK. He specifically says they want people to say, “That’s visually stunning. I’ve never seen anything like that before.” And when you play the combat they want you to say, “I’ve never seen anything like that.” See there, he actually hits that point twice. To really drive it home that they want to change the way people view things.

Clearly, the NPE thing where we entertain the cows thing is an actual manifest manifestation of the manifest destiny manifested in the manifesto. Because it changed the way we view something. When people dance for the cows and the little hearts start flying, they will most likely say, “I never thought I’d see the day,” or “Am I seeing things?” or “Oh em gee, will you look at this kitten!” or some variant thereof.

Whop! Pow! Manifested!

Paradox.1380:

Sadly, every where I have posted this I have been ignored. What do I have to do? Make a video that disproves the other one? That will probably get ignored too.

Problem is, the forums are full of people that have already decided they dislike the game, and now they want everyone else to dislike the game as well. They don’t play regularly, most have already said “so glad I quit” or “now I’m never coming back”. They aren’t players. They are angry ex-players that are bored with their old MMOs, are bored with this one, are bored with all MMOs, and want to make sure everyone else feels the same way.

They also don’t typically play the content they complain about. They read other people complaining about the new content and nod their head in agreement, followed by a regurgitated version of the posts they’ve been reading.

They do read the contradicting posts but say to themselves “pfft, fanboys… it isn’t like that at all, they will defend anything, those stupid white knights, it’s really like what these other posters are saying which happens to be exactly in line with my current view of GW2 as a whole.”

I rolled an alt so I could have an informed opinion. While I can admit that it was slightly more frustrating not having everything unlocked as early as it used to be, the fact is, in ~two hours of play time I already hit 15, and I still have some Personal Story left that I can do for more levels. They seemed to have accelerated the leveling to the point where I would suggest that your overall playtime to unlock the skills has not changed, just the number next to your name…

Heck, I would even suggest that you unlock your skills in less overall play time, even though the level req is higher, but there would be no way to prove that, so it is a baseless claim, do with it what you will.

Shademehr.1397:

anzenketh.3759:

• Adapt Tier Traits (Unlocked at level 30)
• Elite Skill (Unlocked at level 40)
• Master Traits (Unlocked at level 60)
• Grandmaster Traits (Unlocked at level 80)

This sucks for WvW. I’ve got 8 alts (including the one I just started) and despite being a lowbie, I’ve still been pretty darned useful in WvW. These changes make it a lot more difficult to NOT be rally bait.

As someone who plays mostly WvW, I absolutely hate how a lot of low-level characters are rallybait. I used to start doing WvW at level 40 on most of my alts, and the April patch pretty much ruined that by making it to where you don’t get any good traits until level 60. This new patch will make it SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE for anyone trying to WvW on anything that isn’t close to max level.

For that matter, it seems that there are some huge downscaling issues in PvE. Can anyone confirm whether or not there are any huge upscaling issues in WvW? Because, I’d really like to make a level 2 ranger with certain equipment and see if I could just LOLkill everyone with mainhand axe. If downscaled characters are arbitrarily weaker than level-appropriate characters, I figured upscaled characters might actually be stronger than level 80 characters. I’m seriously thinking about testing that out. I might do that when I get off the forums.

In regards to uplevels, so many times I’ve been in a group, and you’re about to kill an enemy but they rally off of one of your low level allies who has already been downed. You don’t want to tell them to leave because in small groups even a low level could CC people (or at least they could back when they could learn all of their weapon skills) and in a zerg numbers can often be the deciding factor especially since the low levels can attack from range and hopefully not be targeted. So, you’re basically stuck with players who you KNOW will be rallybait, but you can’t really do anything about it because you might need them. It’s not even really their fault anyway because you used to be able to WvW with some effectiveness at level 40 or even 30 back when you could actually get trait points. But now that it’s basically impossible to get any good traits at that level, much less several, uplevels are massively less effective than they were a year ago especially if they are a profession such a mesmer which relies fairly heavily on traits. I guess if you are a mesmer you could always be a portal bot for your golems. But, that would only further be cementing your role as a mule who is useless in battle.

Errant Venture.9371:

Skill challenges are also level-locked

Skill challenges are level locked BUT if one is started by a higher level character, the locked person WILL complete the challenge and will have the skill point available when they are ready to use it.

Roybe.5896:

Errant Venture.9371:

Skill challenges are also level-locked

Skill challenges are level locked BUT if one is started by a higher level character, the locked person WILL complete the challenge and will have the skill point available when they are ready to use it.

I’ve heard the same thing. It’s not the Skill Challenge that is locked, it is only activating the skill challenge that is locked.

Reyouka.7039:

….. Rangers can’t actually control their pets, one of the main draws of the class, until level 24. Are you freaking kittenting me?

That’s not true. I control my pet on my ranger and I’m not level 24. From where are you getting your information?