Guild Wars 2

Ok, created a new character: warrior.

First, because you can only use the first two skills after the starter area, please give the warrior an axe. The second skill of a sword is useless if you don’t have the rest.

Starter area: boring. No need to do anything, the NPC’s will kill it, just leave on auto attack, move from your pc and come back after 5 minutes. It’ll be done. No need for more work as you don’t get anything out of it anyway, not even weapon unlocks.

Leveling: horribly slow due to the very slow killing speed of the sword. It got a bit better when I finally got an axe, but it’s simply not fun. What the game now is saying: you better do the hearts because any other way simply won’t give you enough XP before you fall asleep from boredom. When I finished my lvl5 heart, I still wasn’t lvl6 so underleveled for the next area. And gaining XP with simple killing is soooooooo slow (due to a very slow killing speed because, well, you’d guess, no weapon skills but 1 and 2). I did catch two or three events.

I gave up and tried again. This time with a ranger.

Hey, you can actually change the weapon a character starts with! So you gave the ranger the most useless weapon for a starter: the longbow. Every starter won’t read the text that says you should go at a distance before you get the most damage. Besides, a starter will mostly be solo and as non-ranged foes will always move towards the player, you’ll be attacking foes at melee range with a longbow. Yep, very instructive… Especially as you cannot guide your pet around or even name it (because a new player might be confused at giving his pet a name?).

I loved the leveling process, from lvl1 to 70 (the last 10 levels I always found a bit boring, at that point I usually wanted it to be done :p). Right now, I’m bored out of my mind…

The misconception is the devs believing their new system isn’t a broken POS.

Just finished the now gated story line. Claw island lvl 60 mission. Instead of doing it earlier, having to fight hard and possibly even having to use a heal or two while enjoying the challenge. I got to lazily play a mission that at no point had any challenge what so ever. i even went afk with no fear of failing.

Oh look a new adventure awaits! SWEET! Wait… what? Why is it telling me to go into a level 25 zone? Why isn’t this new great system guiding me towards current content? I don’t understand? Oh yeah… because its a broken POS …..

I have only a question:
why do we receive updates after the chinese version while the game was born in for NA/EU players and we still get bugged content?

Badlatitude.4309:

The misconception is the devs believing their new system isn’t a broken POS.
.

Did you read the red posts in this thread. They know it is broken and not working as designed. They want to fix it before the next scheduled patch.

I thought the level progression and process was great from 1-40 before this patch. After level 40 is when the leveling process was a chore – this is because I had already unlocked all weapon skills and more or less had acquired the utility skills i enjoyed.

Sure I can gain more skills in order to try a new style, and also I need to level up in order to unlock all the traits.

So in my opinion this game has 40 additional levels that are not needed. By level 40 I should have been max; with all traits unlocked. The only thing left to do is unlock the skills that i had not tried.

Summary:
The sense of progression in this game is great from 1-40 . The sense of progression is not good from 40-80. Why? It’s because the game has 40 levels that are not needed.

anzenketh.3759:

Badlatitude.4309:

The misconception is the devs believing their new system isn’t a broken POS.
.

Did you read the red posts in this thread. They know it is broken and not working as designed. They want to fix it before the next scheduled patch.

Curious how they managed to deliver something that isn’t working as intended after all the time they say they spent testing it.

Tachenon.5270:

anzenketh.3759:

Badlatitude.4309:

The misconception is the devs believing their new system isn’t a broken POS.
.

Did you read the red posts in this thread. They know it is broken and not working as designed. They want to fix it before the next scheduled patch.

Curious how they managed to deliver something that isn’t working as intended after all the time they say they spent testing it.

That’s every expansion/content push to every MMO that’s ever existed. Even if Anet is a bunch of screw-ups, which I don’t think they are, there’s nothing unusual or extraordinary about that.

The biggest drawback for me is the F2 not being available until Lvl 13 and half the downed skills being locked. Will it be so for new players? I don’t know. As a veteran player that “knows” what should be there it is disconcerting.

The leveling process itself is not that big of a deal. The inability to pick up skill points though is a pain because it means you have to backtrack at some point to get them. Previously we just grabbed them as we moved along and they stacked up. Not sure why that cannot be the case now.

Another big issue is that they did not explain ALL the changes they made. Hearts were removed, moved, or added without explanation to various maps. For new players not a big deal. For veterans who have established already how to move through a map, rather annoying.

Why limit what weapon can be chosen at the time of character creation but keep the behavioral traits when the behavioral traits have no bearing on the game anymore and the behavioral response are being stripped out?

Personally, I think this can all be chalked up to the fact that 80 levels was too many. They should have gone with 40. They could have then had enough meaningful progression without making large intervals of that progression a boring, repetitive chore.

WillisRage.1073:

So in my opinion this game has 40 additional levels that are not needed.

That was always a problem with this game. Most of the levels were always filler.

The first Guild Wars had a level cap of 20, and I played that game just fine.

Vayne.8563:

Sogradde.8016:

Vayne.8563:

Way to miss the point.

Anet isn’t talking about long time players leaving the game. That’s not what they’re talking about. They’re talking about people playing the game at start and getting bored and not continuing.

If you like the initial experience you might think everyone does or most people do. Anet’s testing shows them that’s not the case. Leaving the game long term has nothing to do with this update, but Colin said until they fix this, they can’t move forward with other things they want to do.

Not everyone who buys your game likes your game. That’s true for every single video game out there. And honestly, maybe people who are overwhelmed by one of the easiest MMOs out there aren’t exactly the target audience. The devs have to draw the line somewhere and right now they are catering to the worst players big time, which ultimately hurts veterans and enthusiasts. If this is the direction you want to be heading, fine but don’t expect no backlash when the people who actually bought the game firsthand and made it big get the short end of the stick.

It’s not just about being overwhelmed. It’s about pacing. It’s about being rewarded. People like to be rewarded. To older players it’s like something’s been taken away. To newer players, they don’t know what it was like before.

Anet’s tested it and they say the tests show this keeps people playing longer. I’m willing to see if it’s true.

giving out better rewards, and creating a structure for people to follow would have acheived a similar goal, without locking of skills.

Why do we even discuss the basic rewards when overall, most people’s beef is specifically the locking of skills, and push back of charachter specialisation (traits). They wanted to increase progression goals, but the type of game they built doesnt work well with that.

They also are apparently losing/discouraging many players. No player i know said that the traits/skill pushback has helped them or made them more excited during the process. Out of the people who like the system, they say they like getting stuff when they level up.

The point is yes, they needed better progression systems, but no, the one they built doesnt mesh well with this game, and many of its users. The process of leveling is returned to a grind. While they may have improved the desire to level, they reduced the actual joys of the game.
Leveling is almost 100% something to be avoided if you could now.

The reason they had to do this, and this game needed some type if time gating from the beginning, is that people are getting levels up to fast for the amount of content that is in the game. If you remember back at launch the first couple of weeks people were already level 80 and crying that there was nothing more to do. Well time gating kind of solves this problem especially for new players. yes this sucks for alts but to keep this game viable and alive this was the only option left to them. There also needs to be a way for veteran players to level up alts without having to grind them threw the whole game again. It just that someone at Anet forgot about human nature, there are always people in this world that need to get to the top as fast as posable. So they will take any means to get there and a lot of people have done that in this game, but I think it was to late to implement time gating to this game not two years after release this should have been realized a lot sooner and implemented from the beginning.

Vayne.8563:

Combination NC.9813:

50% of the character’s max level cannot really be considered a small percentage of their life.

Really? You stop playing characters when you hit 80? And due to the first 15 levels being accelerated it’s not 50% anyway.

Maybe it’s 35% of your leveling experience, during which time you have most of your stuff unlocked anyway.

I know that I spent 80 hours leveling and have played some characters for hundreds of hours. That’s a lot less than 50%.

Yes. See, what I like to do is level a character, plan their endgame look, and then when I get to 80 I gear them up, no matter the cost, so they look perfect and have appropriate gear for their build. If insanely expensive weapons are needed for perfection, so be it. And then once perfection has been attained I promptly leave them in front of a trading post or crafting station or something and go back to playing my mains, because who has time to deal with seventeen 80s.

I see a lot of posts that mention the early levels are coming really fast now, does that mean it’s going to take a logarithmic curve and level 41-80 is going to feel beyond slow in comparison?

The one thing I really liked about this game is it seemed that the amount of time it took to complete an early level was the same it took to complete a higher level. That’s actually what made the game feel less grindy for me. Running through early levels super fast and then stagnating is beyond frustrating and what caused me to leave many many other mmos.

ColinJohanson.2394:

SkiTz.4590:

Colin, just clear up one thing – There is 0% chance EU/NA GW2 gets a VIP system?

We’re absolutely not bringing the China VIP system to NA/EU, correct.

So not the China VIP system but a different kind, we do get some kind of VIP system right? The way you worded it made it sound like it.

kokiman.2364:

ColinJohanson.2394:

SkiTz.4590:

Colin, just clear up one thing – There is 0% chance EU/NA GW2 gets a VIP system?

We’re absolutely not bringing the China VIP system to NA/EU, correct.

So not the China VIP system but a different kind, we do get some kind of VIP system right? The way you worded it made it sound like it.

It’s because of people like you that Dev’s cant interact with players on the forums. Go play your game of “gotcha” elsewhere please. He was asked a question, and answered it.

As for Anet, they do need to address the player retention issue. I know many friends that tried the game but didn’t stick around for too long. Although my opinion is that they can achieve it via guild vs guild additions and more end game diversity. That of course is for your hardcore/veteran gamer type of client, but new mmo players will need this NPE track. It’s all about what type of clientele you want to keep.

Altie.4571:

kokiman.2364:

ColinJohanson.2394:

SkiTz.4590:

Colin, just clear up one thing – There is 0% chance EU/NA GW2 gets a VIP system?

We’re absolutely not bringing the China VIP system to NA/EU, correct.

So not the China VIP system but a different kind, we do get some kind of VIP system right? The way you worded it made it sound like it.

It’s because of people like you that Dev’s cant interact with players on the forums. Go play your game of “gotcha” elsewhere please. He was asked a question, and answered it.

It’s not a game of gotcha he just worded it in a weird way.

And.. people like me? Because I asked a Dev 1 question in 2 years of forum activity?

Feirlista Xv.1425:

The reason they had to do this, and this game needed some type if time gating from the beginning, is that people are getting levels up to fast for the amount of content that is in the game. If you remember back at launch the first couple of weeks people were already level 80 and crying that there was nothing more to do.

Maybe the solution is to add more content??? Just a suggestion…..

I had no real problems with the NPE 1-15. 15+ though is a little bit of a drag.

After finally getting my ranger to lvl15, I suddenly realized why I was so weak in battle. My pet kept dieing and I couldn’t swap her out. Because there no more juveniles in the starter area at all. None. And without skills or traits to back up your pet, it will take the brunt of the attacks, and, especially if against some heavy AoE dudes like the trolls, it will die rather fast. And as you won’t have a pet to change back, you better run because your weapons only do a small part of the total damage…

(unless you have access to a HoM naturally, because there you can grab some free pets still, thankfully…)

Swapping weapons are also really necessary for early game content. Otherwise all the cool downs are thrown off. You used to be able to swap to another weapon and still have other skills that weren’t on cooldown. Now the only option is AA.

LadyRhonwyn.2501:

After finally getting my ranger to lvl15, I suddenly realized why I was so weak in battle. My pet kept dieing and I couldn’t swap her out. Because there no more juveniles in the starter area at all.

There used to be pigs in the Divinity’s Reach home instance. You could try seeing if they are still there. Other than that, there should still be juveniles in WvWvW mode. If you happen to be lucky enough to start at Overlook, there are some Salamander Drake literally right in front of the entrance. At least, there used to be.

This is a review of the new leveling system 1-10 as of yesterday: character created was a Norn Thief.

Time to reach level 10: 2 hours, 5 minutes. I could have done it a few minutes faster but went into Hoelbrak to the bank to get bags.

Level 1: The intro area offered no danger, so using dagger 1 as my only skill was doable, if a touch boring. The Issormir fight was a far cry from the one I faced back in beta WE 1. then, the worm would one shot me. Now, it barely does damage. One other player, the NPC’s and I killed it before it could get off a second whirling attack.

Level 2-4: Went quickly. Heartseeker sped fights up considerably. I got a sword as a drop and slotted it, meaning that I got 2 skills at once. Assuming I did not already know the sword skills, I still would have had to read the descriptions or experimented to know what they do. As a teaching tool the new system is lacking with regard to slotting new weapons. Was saddened that the need to click multiple times (fish trap in the bear heart in WFF) was removed in favor of one click on the trap. If I had not done the heart before, I doubt I’d have noticed the difference.

Level 7: Fought three veterans (Ram, Oakheart and Snow Troll) in the level 6-8 area. I was downed by the Snow Troll and rallied by doing damage to him (just doing damage, he was still up when I rallied). Not sure if WAI or a bug. Forgot about skill challenges being locked until 13 and went to the L7 one in the Svanir area on the hill. NPC blew me off. If I’d been a new player, I’d be wondering about what this was doing in an area appropriate to my level.

Levels 8 and 9: Offhand weapon. This is a big deal to a thief. Stab is an inferior skill, with both Pistol Whip and Flanking Strike being better options. The same goes for dagger main, with Twisting Fangs being the worst of the skills. Also, as a new player, I might have been confused when the number three skill changed.

Leveling up: I did experience a drive to level. I’m pretty sure this was driven by the desire to get past the skill locks, but maybe not. If I look at it objectively, I’d have to say that the level rewards might have been part of it. It’s not that the 2-10 rewards are great stuff, but I didn’t know what they’d be and anticipation is a powerful motivator.

Dodge tutorial: Ooh, look, a chest with an AoE doughnut around it. Not what I imagined. I would have thought it would be a mob with a charge-up attack. Opinion: the end boss in the intro instances would have been a better place to put a dodge tutorial. If I were new, the tutorial would have taught me that I use dodge to get past impassable effects, not use it to avoid heavy mob hits.

Conclusions: I believe that the distribution of rewards on leveling is a good move for the business. MMO’s generate longevity by fostering behavior that is similar to, if not the same as, addiction. Giving new players something to look forward to (“What will I get this time?”) was a good move in that regard. As far as teaching new players the game, I think the hypothesis that extending levels-to-access (but not, purportedly, time-to-access) will allow players to better understand the game is flawed. The game as it was yesterday did nothing more to acquaint me with what mechanics do do than it did last month. It does, imo, generate a better flow of acquisition tied to levels than it did before — at least early in the leveling process. That last might well be enough reason to make the changes. However, we were presented with both rationales for implementation, and the “teaching” aspect is no better than before.

Sogradde.8016:

Vayne.8563:

It’s not just about being overwhelmed. It’s about pacing. It’s about being rewarded. People like to be rewarded. To older players it’s like something’s been taken away. To newer players, they don’t know what it was like before.

Anet’s tested it and they say the tests show this keeps people playing longer. I’m willing to see if it’s true.

I’m not. ANet has shown in the past that they like to take the laziest route possible. And I’m pretty sure, all they did was listen to their flawed metrics and decided to dumb everything down. Which comes handy by the way because it drags out the levelling experience and new players take a little longer to reach the state of #NoEndgame.

Also, where’s the reward for veteran players? Spoon collection?

Look, I know you’re not stupid and I see where you are coming from with your arguments but you cannot seriously look someone straight in the face and say you’re happy with the direction it is taking.

I mean, seriously, do you even play the game? I assume you do, so what do you do when you log in? Play the same dungeons you’ve been playing for almost 2 years? Or the same PvP Mode&Maps or the same WvW mode&maps? Or do you take your time to carefully examine the 20 minutes long Living Story content?
Listen to your heart buddy, this game is way past it’s former glory and it’s not getting better.

Actually my expereince playing the game for past 2 years is completely aligned with what they did.

I dont have to like it, but i do support it, sorry.

Oh, and BTW, i do whatever i feel like doing (and still get something out of it) instead being forced to latest raid once a week for 6+ months like every other game. Is GW2 perfect? Far from it. Is it absolutely best on the market for it? Yes And ive been playing MMOs since 2002.

I would like all of the downed skills to be available when the downed state is unlocked. Though if, WAI or not, you can rally solely by doing damage (which is both new and inaccurate of the rest of the game) perhaps that is a justification for the later downed-state unlocks.

Michael Walker.8150:

Just let people put 2 lvl 20 scrolls in the forge, some stones or coins or a goat and out comes a lvl 40 scroll.

New players can’t get it and it solves the whole issue

(or 1 scroll and make it lvl 500 craft, whatever)

Actually this is very very veryyyyy good idea! A good tweaking and it could be implemented easily. Veterans only. Problem with this NPE solved.

Found something annoying today. The gating of the PS. Now personally i liked to go out and do the first few bits and keep plugging at it until I was getting killed and unable to progress without leveling/getting better skills and gear.

Im also one of those peole who like to do things in chunks so I can appreciate the flow of the story and not forget what happened in the last chapter by the time I get to unlocking the next one. For that reason most of my characters start the PS then leave it until im fuly leveled then complete it in one big chunk – kind of like waiting until a TV series has finished so you can watch them one after another and not have to wait a week between episode therefore missing some subtle nuance in episode 2 that turns out to be a major plot twist by episode 11.

Not an issue before because it just sat nicely in the top corner of the screen and did nothing. This now has another consiquence though in that it sits “over” the map completion compass. Really dont want to be forced to either a)complete the next PS to get the compass back, therefore interupting the flow waiting for the next one to unlock, b) walk the whole map inch by inch to find the elusive final POI or c)trawl over maps in wiki/Dulfy to find where im missing something.

Seems a bit odd when the whole point of introducing it is to “help” people navigate.

What about people who don’t have any level 20 scrolls left, who want to make an alt? What are they supposed to do? I just bought 2 character slots a couple weeks ago and only have 1 level 20 scroll left.

The personal story for me was a life safer when I was bored of leveling with hearts, and I could do it when I personally felt that lull and needed some fast experience from the PS.

Ranger. Golem banker. I used xp, regen, speed and armor boosts. White armor with power talis, blue lvl 0 SB with sigil of blood and speed. Pet bear.

From start to end of the PS was one hour and 45 minutes. Could have been faster, but I had to go to Divinity Reach to buy some 8 slot bags. The TP guy that used to be in Shaemoor didn’t seem to be around anymore.

The key got me a bank access, crafting booster and BL salvage kit.

theerrantventure.9185:

I tried GW2 at launch. I loved everything about the game. The art, the sound, the dynamic combat, the personal story, all of it. I drifted away after getting to level 80 due to real life obligations. I took a break from all MMOs and games.

As a 30 year old with a full time job, and a wife and toddler at home, I find GW2 to be a refreshing MMO to come back to. I can devote the last hour or two of my busy days, after the chores are done and the kid is in bed, to adventuring in game. I don’t feel pressured to grind my alts to 80 just to be part of some gear treadmill.

The new leveling features are great! Having just come back to GW2 they add a refreshing experience to my leveling. The new leveling splash screens and rewards list give me a sense of accomplishment. I didn’t used to get than previously when leveling. Heck, there were times when I didn’t even notice that I leveled under the old system.

I’ve also started PvP for the first time in any MMO. I’ve found an active WvW guild and it’s AMAZING. I’ve hated PvP in every MMO I’ve tried (EQ, WoW, Rift, the list goes on.) I love that I can run with a huge group to PvP or I can branch off and capture resources and solo players on my own terms.

I’ve very glad to have come back into the community. I know lots of folks are upset by recent updates and that’s fine. Everyone can have their own feelings. That’s the great thing about GW2, there’s no messy subscription to cancel or worry about. If you don’t like where the game is now, take a break, try something else out.

I guarantee you’ll be back. We’ll keep the lights on for ya.

Sounds very similar to me (except I got a necro to 40 in the old system) I’m really rating these changes!

Malistaire.5287:

Sorry but the new player experience is awful. I hate being gated on abilities and part of the leveling fun was being involved in the story every few levels. Now I’m grinding to get to the next wall of content. It’s just terrible and boring.

are you actually a new player?

How do you notice gated abilities and the story changes?

xerties.7389:

Malistaire.5287:

Sorry but the new player experience is awful. I hate being gated on abilities and part of the leveling fun was being involved in the story every few levels. Now I’m grinding to get to the next wall of content. It’s just terrible and boring.

are you actually a new player?

How do you notice gated abilities and the story changes?

He’s not claiming that he’s a new player. Sounds to me like a vetaran upset about not being able to escape the NPE.

LadyRhonwyn.2501:

Ok, created a new character: warrior.

First, because you can only use the first two skills after the starter area, please give the warrior an axe. The second skill of a sword is useless if you don’t have the rest.

Starter area: boring. No need to do anything, the NPC’s will kill it, just leave on auto attack, move from your pc and come back after 5 minutes. It’ll be done. No need for more work as you don’t get anything out of it anyway, not even weapon unlocks.

Leveling: horribly slow due to the very slow killing speed of the sword. It got a bit better when I finally got an axe, but it’s simply not fun. What the game now is saying: you better do the hearts because any other way simply won’t give you enough XP before you fall asleep from boredom. When I finished my lvl5 heart, I still wasn’t lvl6 so underleveled for the next area. And gaining XP with simple killing is soooooooo slow (due to a very slow killing speed because, well, you’d guess, no weapon skills but 1 and 2). I did catch two or three events.

I gave up and tried again. This time with a ranger.

Hey, you can actually change the weapon a character starts with! So you gave the ranger the most useless weapon for a starter: the longbow. Every starter won’t read the text that says you should go at a distance before you get the most damage. Besides, a starter will mostly be solo and as non-ranged foes will always move towards the player, you’ll be attacking foes at melee range with a longbow. Yep, very instructive… Especially as you cannot guide your pet around or even name it (because a new player might be confused at giving his pet a name?).

I loved the leveling process, from lvl1 to 70 (the last 10 levels I always found a bit boring, at that point I usually wanted it to be done :p). Right now, I’m bored out of my mind…

I started a new warrior too – my experience was that it was a heck of a lot of fun – he is now 22 which is my highest character in GW2. Loved the changes – perhaps they arent designed for alts in mind.

That is the only issue I see – giving alts an option to have their skills at the start and allowing the new players a more gradual introduction

Straylight.7529:

xerties.7389:

Malistaire.5287:

Sorry but the new player experience is awful. I hate being gated on abilities and part of the leveling fun was being involved in the story every few levels. Now I’m grinding to get to the next wall of content. It’s just terrible and boring.

are you actually a new player?

How do you notice gated abilities and the story changes?

He’s not claiming that he’s a new player. Sounds to me like a vetaran upset about not being able to escape the NPE.

Ah I see

Areanet mascot suggestion.

More suggestions:

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110227034519/thatguywiththeglasses/images/3/31/Corporate_Commander.jpg

zenleto.6179:

Broom.2561:

cesmode.4257:

Colin.. No one asked for the leveling and new player experience to be changed. I can’t remember anyone complaining that it is bad. Like a broken record here, “if it aint broke don’t fix it”. You could have invested those resources on other things, like dungeons?? Or making open world PVE / DE more enjoyable and rewarding?

I seriousl’y don’t understand your decision making here. It makes no sense and is a clear example of the disconnect that you have with the playerbase. Again, no one asked for this and no one complained about it.

Personally, I’ve always said that the new player experience and leveling experience is second to none in Guild Wars 2. It is the best part of the game, because lets face it…GW2 is not known for it’s awesome level cap experience.

You need to admit that you did a wrong here… we didnt want this. Its confusing and makes no sense.

Heck, how about making it so newbies aren’t automatically refused for dungeons or world boss events their own level in favor of 80s, because newbies just don’t have the skills / DPS. Or make it so that level 80s with full world completion aren’t able to run through a lowbie zone oneshotting all the mobs while you as a lowbie can’t even get a hit in to get event credit? Those are the things I would consider discouraging as a new player (and even on a veteran player playing a low level alt).

These are player based issues. People are pricks. In the lower maps people are more than capable of adjusting their play to suit the area but they don’t. I’ve caught myself doing this, and I’m only on top of it because a year ago a guy I was doing the booze escort with in Wayfarer let me know he was waiting for me to get the first hit on things. It really got me thinking.

Its up to players, not the nanny.

Actually, this IS a design flaw, not a player flaw. Every developer knows there are people out there who enjoy spoiling other players’ fun. The trick is making it kitten the spoilers. And the downscaling system GW2 employs makes it easy. A max level does SO much more damage than a low level player in a low level zone, it’s not even remotely funny. And yes, I have actually tested this with 80 and low level of the same class in the same zone. It’s just plain ridiculous. A level 80 ranger can run into a cave full of lvl 3 Sons of Jormag, kill 10+ of them in seconds and hardly take any damage. A level 3 ranger will pretty certainly die in seconds before they’re even in the cave.

Having played games with downscaling before, I can flat out guarantee you that it is quite possible to do WAY better than this, making it so that if you downscale, you are actually on a par with the low levels for which the zone/mission/boss was originally intended.

Broom.2561:

zenleto.6179:

Broom.2561:

cesmode.4257:

Colin.. No one asked for the leveling and new player experience to be changed. I can’t remember anyone complaining that it is bad. Like a broken record here, “if it aint broke don’t fix it”. You could have invested those resources on other things, like dungeons?? Or making open world PVE / DE more enjoyable and rewarding?

I seriousl’y don’t understand your decision making here. It makes no sense and is a clear example of the disconnect that you have with the playerbase. Again, no one asked for this and no one complained about it.

Personally, I’ve always said that the new player experience and leveling experience is second to none in Guild Wars 2. It is the best part of the game, because lets face it…GW2 is not known for it’s awesome level cap experience.

You need to admit that you did a wrong here… we didnt want this. Its confusing and makes no sense.

Heck, how about making it so newbies aren’t automatically refused for dungeons or world boss events their own level in favor of 80s, because newbies just don’t have the skills / DPS. Or make it so that level 80s with full world completion aren’t able to run through a lowbie zone oneshotting all the mobs while you as a lowbie can’t even get a hit in to get event credit? Those are the things I would consider discouraging as a new player (and even on a veteran player playing a low level alt).

These are player based issues. People are pricks. In the lower maps people are more than capable of adjusting their play to suit the area but they don’t. I’ve caught myself doing this, and I’m only on top of it because a year ago a guy I was doing the booze escort with in Wayfarer let me know he was waiting for me to get the first hit on things. It really got me thinking.

Its up to players, not the nanny.

Actually, this IS a design flaw, not a player flaw. Every developer knows there are people out there who enjoy spoiling other players’ fun. The trick is making it kitten the spoilers. And the downscaling system GW2 employs makes it easy. A max level does SO much more damage than a low level player in a low level zone, it’s not even remotely funny. And yes, I have actually tested this with 80 and low level of the same class in the same zone. It’s just plain ridiculous. A level 80 ranger can run into a cave full of lvl 3 Sons of Jormag, kill 10+ of them in seconds and hardly take any damage. A level 3 ranger will pretty certainly die in seconds before they’re even in the cave.

Having played games with downscaling before, I can flat out guarantee you that it is quite possible to do WAY better than this, making it so that if you downscale, you are actually on a par with the low levels for which the zone/mission/boss was originally intended.

Yup, been mentioning that dowscaling should be much more….downscaled….for long now. Really. There should be at least a chance of lvl80 dying in lower areas (accompanied with removing any loot restrictions still in place)

Same goes for upscaling. It should be much more….upscaled ;P

Broom.2561:

Having played games with downscaling before, I can flat out guarantee you that it is quite possible to do WAY better than this, making it so that if you downscale, you are actually on a par with the low levels for which the zone/mission/boss was originally intended.

You can blame that one the April patch (as well as the new NPE patch) for having to make lower level monsters weaker to match making low level characters weaker by removing their traits and skills. The result is that a level 80 can basically 1-shot everything wearing Cleric’s gear.

Sokia.3710:

Broom.2561:

Having played games with downscaling before, I can flat out guarantee you that it is quite possible to do WAY better than this, making it so that if you downscale, you are actually on a par with the low levels for which the zone/mission/boss was originally intended.

You can blame that one the April patch (as well as the new NPE patch) for having to make lower level monsters weaker to match making low level characters weaker by removing their traits and skills. The result is that a level 80 can basically 1-shot everything wearing Cleric’s gear.

I could one shot stuff 1.5 years ago.

Why are you so uninformed? This is NOT new thing.

If you’re exactly the same as a low level character in a low level area, what’s the point of having levels at all?

Becka Williams.4978:

If you’re exactly the same as a low level character in a low level area, what’s the point of having levels at all?

Arbitrary numbers just like in any other game.

I still think GW2 would be better with no levels at all (and i think that since launch)

And you can see how some players are fixated onthose arbitrary numbers “they moved weapon swap fron 7-15” without any consideration that they also adjusted xp curve so effectivly you get it at the roughly same time as before.

But now its “15” instead of “7” so it MUST be worse, right?

MikaHR.1978:

Broom.2561:

zenleto.6179:

Broom.2561:

cesmode.4257:

Colin.. No one asked for the leveling and new player experience to be changed. I can’t remember anyone complaining that it is bad. Like a broken record here, “if it aint broke don’t fix it”. You could have invested those resources on other things, like dungeons?? Or making open world PVE / DE more enjoyable and rewarding?

I seriousl’y don’t understand your decision making here. It makes no sense and is a clear example of the disconnect that you have with the playerbase. Again, no one asked for this and no one complained about it.

Personally, I’ve always said that the new player experience and leveling experience is second to none in Guild Wars 2. It is the best part of the game, because lets face it…GW2 is not known for it’s awesome level cap experience.

You need to admit that you did a wrong here… we didnt want this. Its confusing and makes no sense.

Heck, how about making it so newbies aren’t automatically refused for dungeons or world boss events their own level in favor of 80s, because newbies just don’t have the skills / DPS. Or make it so that level 80s with full world completion aren’t able to run through a lowbie zone oneshotting all the mobs while you as a lowbie can’t even get a hit in to get event credit? Those are the things I would consider discouraging as a new player (and even on a veteran player playing a low level alt).

These are player based issues. People are pricks. In the lower maps people are more than capable of adjusting their play to suit the area but they don’t. I’ve caught myself doing this, and I’m only on top of it because a year ago a guy I was doing the booze escort with in Wayfarer let me know he was waiting for me to get the first hit on things. It really got me thinking.

Its up to players, not the nanny.

Actually, this IS a design flaw, not a player flaw. Every developer knows there are people out there who enjoy spoiling other players’ fun. The trick is making it kitten the spoilers. And the downscaling system GW2 employs makes it easy. A max level does SO much more damage than a low level player in a low level zone, it’s not even remotely funny. And yes, I have actually tested this with 80 and low level of the same class in the same zone. It’s just plain ridiculous. A level 80 ranger can run into a cave full of lvl 3 Sons of Jormag, kill 10+ of them in seconds and hardly take any damage. A level 3 ranger will pretty certainly die in seconds before they’re even in the cave.

Having played games with downscaling before, I can flat out guarantee you that it is quite possible to do WAY better than this, making it so that if you downscale, you are actually on a par with the low levels for which the zone/mission/boss was originally intended.

Yup, been mentioning that dowscaling should be much more….downscaled….for long now. Really. There should be at least a chance of lvl80 dying in lower areas (accompanied with removing any loot restrictions still in place)

Same goes for upscaling. It should be much more….upscaled ;P

Absolutely.

Players can be more considerate though.

Vayne.8563:

Sogradde.8016:

Vayne.8563:

Way to miss the point.

Anet isn’t talking about long time players leaving the game. That’s not what they’re talking about. They’re talking about people playing the game at start and getting bored and not continuing.

If you like the initial experience you might think everyone does or most people do. Anet’s testing shows them that’s not the case. Leaving the game long term has nothing to do with this update, but Colin said until they fix this, they can’t move forward with other things they want to do.

Not everyone who buys your game likes your game. That’s true for every single video game out there. And honestly, maybe people who are overwhelmed by one of the easiest MMOs out there aren’t exactly the target audience. The devs have to draw the line somewhere and right now they are catering to the worst players big time, which ultimately hurts veterans and enthusiasts. If this is the direction you want to be heading, fine but don’t expect no backlash when the people who actually bought the game firsthand and made it big get the short end of the stick.

It’s not just about being overwhelmed. It’s about pacing. It’s about being rewarded. People like to be rewarded. To older players it’s like something’s been taken away. To newer players, they don’t know what it was like before.

Anet’s tested it and they say the tests show this keeps people playing longer. I’m willing to see if it’s true.

Oh Vayne… everything you are saying sounds so dreadfully familiar… I’ve been here before, I’ve seen your arguments before, I’ve seen the developers’ arguments before. But catering to potential new players at the expense of existing veterans has already proven to be a horribly bad idea. Please, read up about Star Wars Galaxies and the Combat Upgrade and the New Game Enhancements. The arguments, stated by developers in TV and newspaper interviews, were the exact same, including the enthusiastic focus groups they had tried the concept on. Read this for instance:

Quote:
“We really just needed to make the game a lot more accessible to a much broader player base,” said Nancy MacIntyre, the game’s senior director at LucasArts. “There was lots of reading, much too much, in the game. There was a lot of wandering around learning about different abilities. We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer. We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat.”

And it simply is not true, in the long haul. Yes, there’s a group of players that likes ‘kill, get loot, rinse, repeat’. There’s also a group of players that think ’there’s too much reading in the game’. But there’s also a substantial group that wants a bit more out of a game. And many of those are the veteran players, who have already invested significant time and money into the game AND RECOMMEND IT TO NEW PLAYERS on the basis of what they like.

I will be the first to admit that these recent changes are not as bad by far as what happened in SWG. But it did kill my enjoyment in the game. I had two sub-20s I wanted to level, and I just cannot bring myself to do so, especially after trying the ‘new leveling experience’. I’ll probably be moving on to another game again soon.

My guild (fated.europefreeforum.com – we’re large and we’re old) came here in the April beta. We loved the game, enough to buy it. And yes, people did leave, and some left before they were 80. Reasons? Well, the crafters found that crafting was pointless, since loot was often far cheaper and superior. The story addicts got fed up with the rather insane difficulty level of some storyline quests – which they all insisted they should be able to solo, because it was a PERSONAL story after all. The wargame PVPers found that the lack of maps made it too boring. The world PVPers (the majority of us) found we could not PVP as a guild, because the queues for WvW were insane those first months. The guys who adore farming for materials (and there’s quite a few of them in the gaming crowd) got fed up because favorite farming spots kept getting nerfed, because ANet doesn’t like farming. Others didn’t like the combat system or thought everything was just too easy. Not one of them left because it was too hard to level or because there were not enough rewards. And once gone, for the most part they remained gone. There’s too many other games out there they want to try. Why return to something that turned out to be a disappointment after all.

So yeah… for me, this whole misadventure has all the hallmarks of the CU/NGE. It’s a change most veterans don’t seem to like, that a lot of NEW people don’t seem to like, and that has all the hallmarks of being someone’s hobbyhorse.

Broom.2561:

Oh Vayne… everything you are saying sounds so dreadfully familiar… I’ve been here before, I’ve seen your arguments before, I’ve seen the developers’ arguments before. But catering to potential new players at the expense of existing veterans has already proven to be a horribly bad idea. Please, read up about Star Wars Galaxies and the Combat Upgrade and the New Game Enhancements. The arguments, stated by developers in TV and newspaper interviews, were the exact same, including the enthusiastic focus groups they had tried the concept on. Read this for instance:

Quote:
“We really just needed to make the game a lot more accessible to a much broader player base,” said Nancy MacIntyre, the game’s senior director at LucasArts. “There was lots of reading, much too much, in the game. There was a lot of wandering around learning about different abilities. We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer. We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat.”

And it simply is not true, in the long haul. Yes, there’s a group of players that likes ‘kill, get loot, rinse, repeat’. There’s also a group of players that think ’there’s too much reading in the game’. But there’s also a substantial group that wants a bit more out of a game. And many of those are the veteran players, who have already invested significant time and money into the game AND RECOMMEND IT TO NEW PLAYERS on the basis of what they like.

I will be the first to admit that these recent changes are not as bad by far as what happened in SWG. But it did kill my enjoyment in the game. I had two sub-20s I wanted to level, and I just cannot bring myself to do so, especially after trying the ‘new leveling experience’. I’ll probably be moving on to another game again soon.

My guild (fated.europefreeforum.com – we’re large and we’re old) came here in the April beta. We loved the game, enough to buy it. And yes, people did leave, and some left before they were 80. Reasons? Well, the crafters found that crafting was pointless, since loot was often far cheaper and superior. The story addicts got fed up with the rather insane difficulty level of some storyline quests – which they all insisted they should be able to solo, because it was a PERSONAL story after all. The wargame PVPers found that the lack of maps made it too boring. The world PVPers (the majority of us) found we could not PVP as a guild, because the queues for WvW were insane those first months. The guys who adore farming for materials (and there’s quite a few of them in the gaming crowd) got fed up because favorite farming spots kept getting nerfed, because ANet doesn’t like farming. Others didn’t like the combat system or thought everything was just too easy. Not one of them left because it was too hard to level or because there were not enough rewards. And once gone, for the most part they remained gone. There’s too many other games out there they want to try. Why return to something that turned out to be a disappointment after all.

So yeah… for me, this whole misadventure has all the hallmarks of the CU/NGE. It’s a change most veterans don’t seem to like, that a lot of NEW people don’t seem to like, and that has all the hallmarks of being someone’s hobbyhorse.

ANYONE who compares this to NGE is pretty much nuts and pretty much doesnt have a slightest clue what CU/NGE did to SWG.

IF they introduce trinity (for example) you might start going there, but small changes to introductory levels – rofl

Becka Williams.4978:

If you’re exactly the same as a low level character in a low level area, what’s the point of having levels at all?

Having levels means you have access to zones low level players do not. You have access to dungeons they do not have access to and storylines they can’t touch yet. That really should be enough, especially if the developers cared to enhance the level 80 content.

Running around lowbie zones currently is no challenge whatsoever. For myself, I really would not mind if the risk were the same as it is for lowbies. It might also end this hideous habit of excluding level 11s for level 11 world bosses (oh, you’re a lowbie? /groupkick).

And I would like to add… in my experience downscaling to an actual low level really was not a bad experience in e.g. a game like City of Heroes. They actually went a step further too, by blocking all abilities someone of that level could not yet have access to. Yet the most popular PVP zone was the level 20-30 zone (everyone scaled to skill level 30), because it made the PVP more skill based and not omg uber powah based.

MikaHR.1978:

Broom.2561:

Oh Vayne… everything you are saying sounds so dreadfully familiar… I’ve been here before, I’ve seen your arguments before, I’ve seen the developers’ arguments before. But catering to potential new players at the expense of existing veterans has already proven to be a horribly bad idea. Please, read up about Star Wars Galaxies and the Combat Upgrade and the New Game Enhancements. The arguments, stated by developers in TV and newspaper interviews, were the exact same, including the enthusiastic focus groups they had tried the concept on. Read this for instance:

Quote:
“We really just needed to make the game a lot more accessible to a much broader player base,” said Nancy MacIntyre, the game’s senior director at LucasArts. “There was lots of reading, much too much, in the game. There was a lot of wandering around learning about different abilities. We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer. We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat.”

And it simply is not true, in the long haul. Yes, there’s a group of players that likes ‘kill, get loot, rinse, repeat’. There’s also a group of players that think ’there’s too much reading in the game’. But there’s also a substantial group that wants a bit more out of a game. And many of those are the veteran players, who have already invested significant time and money into the game AND RECOMMEND IT TO NEW PLAYERS on the basis of what they like.

I will be the first to admit that these recent changes are not as bad by far as what happened in SWG. But it did kill my enjoyment in the game. I had two sub-20s I wanted to level, and I just cannot bring myself to do so, especially after trying the ‘new leveling experience’. I’ll probably be moving on to another game again soon.

My guild (fated.europefreeforum.com – we’re large and we’re old) came here in the April beta. We loved the game, enough to buy it. And yes, people did leave, and some left before they were 80. Reasons? Well, the crafters found that crafting was pointless, since loot was often far cheaper and superior. The story addicts got fed up with the rather insane difficulty level of some storyline quests – which they all insisted they should be able to solo, because it was a PERSONAL story after all. The wargame PVPers found that the lack of maps made it too boring. The world PVPers (the majority of us) found we could not PVP as a guild, because the queues for WvW were insane those first months. The guys who adore farming for materials (and there’s quite a few of them in the gaming crowd) got fed up because favorite farming spots kept getting nerfed, because ANet doesn’t like farming. Others didn’t like the combat system or thought everything was just too easy. Not one of them left because it was too hard to level or because there were not enough rewards. And once gone, for the most part they remained gone. There’s too many other games out there they want to try. Why return to something that turned out to be a disappointment after all.

So yeah… for me, this whole misadventure has all the hallmarks of the CU/NGE. It’s a change most veterans don’t seem to like, that a lot of NEW people don’t seem to like, and that has all the hallmarks of being someone’s hobbyhorse.

ANYONE who compares this to NGE is pretty much nuts and pretty much doesnt have a slightest clue what CU/NGE did to SWG.

IF they introduce trinity (for example) you might start going there, but small changes to introductory levels – rofl

Well, if you’d actually READ my post, you’d have seen that I actually say that the changes in GW2 aren’t even close to those of the CU/NGE. But the developer rhetoric pretty much is, as is the fact they are prioritizing new players over existing ones.

Broom.2561:

MikaHR.1978:

Broom.2561:

Oh Vayne… everything you are saying sounds so dreadfully familiar… I’ve been here before, I’ve seen your arguments before, I’ve seen the developers’ arguments before. But catering to potential new players at the expense of existing veterans has already proven to be a horribly bad idea. Please, read up about Star Wars Galaxies and the Combat Upgrade and the New Game Enhancements. The arguments, stated by developers in TV and newspaper interviews, were the exact same, including the enthusiastic focus groups they had tried the concept on. Read this for instance:

Quote:
“We really just needed to make the game a lot more accessible to a much broader player base,” said Nancy MacIntyre, the game’s senior director at LucasArts. “There was lots of reading, much too much, in the game. There was a lot of wandering around learning about different abilities. We really needed to give people the experience of being Han Solo or Luke Skywalker rather than being Uncle Owen, the moisture farmer. We wanted more instant gratification: kill, get treasure, repeat.”

And it simply is not true, in the long haul. Yes, there’s a group of players that likes ‘kill, get loot, rinse, repeat’. There’s also a group of players that think ’there’s too much reading in the game’. But there’s also a substantial group that wants a bit more out of a game. And many of those are the veteran players, who have already invested significant time and money into the game AND RECOMMEND IT TO NEW PLAYERS on the basis of what they like.

I will be the first to admit that these recent changes are not as bad by far as what happened in SWG. But it did kill my enjoyment in the game. I had two sub-20s I wanted to level, and I just cannot bring myself to do so, especially after trying the ‘new leveling experience’. I’ll probably be moving on to another game again soon.

My guild (fated.europefreeforum.com – we’re large and we’re old) came here in the April beta. We loved the game, enough to buy it. And yes, people did leave, and some left before they were 80. Reasons? Well, the crafters found that crafting was pointless, since loot was often far cheaper and superior. The story addicts got fed up with the rather insane difficulty level of some storyline quests – which they all insisted they should be able to solo, because it was a PERSONAL story after all. The wargame PVPers found that the lack of maps made it too boring. The world PVPers (the majority of us) found we could not PVP as a guild, because the queues for WvW were insane those first months. The guys who adore farming for materials (and there’s quite a few of them in the gaming crowd) got fed up because favorite farming spots kept getting nerfed, because ANet doesn’t like farming. Others didn’t like the combat system or thought everything was just too easy. Not one of them left because it was too hard to level or because there were not enough rewards. And once gone, for the most part they remained gone. There’s too many other games out there they want to try. Why return to something that turned out to be a disappointment after all.

So yeah… for me, this whole misadventure has all the hallmarks of the CU/NGE. It’s a change most veterans don’t seem to like, that a lot of NEW people don’t seem to like, and that has all the hallmarks of being someone’s hobbyhorse.

ANYONE who compares this to NGE is pretty much nuts and pretty much doesnt have a slightest clue what CU/NGE did to SWG.

IF they introduce trinity (for example) you might start going there, but small changes to introductory levels – rofl

Well, if you’d actually READ my post, you’d have seen that I actually say that the changes in GW2 aren’t even close to those of the CU/NGE. But the developer rhetoric pretty much is, as is the fact they are prioritizing new players over existing ones.

Rhetoric – schmetoric, deeds counts and words are very cheap.

Also you actually directly compare this to NGE so you migth want to read your post again (it seems its you who havent actually read it)

MikaHR.1978:

Becka Williams.4978:

If you’re exactly the same as a low level character in a low level area, what’s the point of having levels at all?

Arbitrary numbers just like in any other game.

I still think GW2 would be better with no levels at all (and i think that since launch)

And you can see how some players are fixated onthose arbitrary numbers “they moved weapon swap fron 7-15” without any consideration that they also adjusted xp curve so effectivly you get it at the roughly same time as before.

But now its “15” instead of “7” so it MUST be worse, right?

You know, I thought “no levels” would be awesome but the alpha build trying that apparently didn’t work. At least, that’s what I’ve been told.

I can count on one hand the RPGs I really saw which worked well with no “levels” and only with mechanics outside it. Almost all of them are tabletop RPGs, with precious few computer games . . . I think Minecraft is the most recent one doing a good job of that. (Don’t tell me it has levels, that’s more of a currency than it is a status of power.)

It hasn’t quite been done yet and then balanced well.

At least it’s not as incredibly bad as it is in Munchkin . . .

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

MikaHR.1978:

Becka Williams.4978:

If you’re exactly the same as a low level character in a low level area, what’s the point of having levels at all?

Arbitrary numbers just like in any other game.

I still think GW2 would be better with no levels at all (and i think that since launch)

And you can see how some players are fixated onthose arbitrary numbers “they moved weapon swap fron 7-15” without any consideration that they also adjusted xp curve so effectivly you get it at the roughly same time as before.

But now its “15” instead of “7” so it MUST be worse, right?

You know, I thought “no levels” would be awesome but the alpha build trying that apparently didn’t work. At least, that’s what I’ve been told.

I can count on one hand the RPGs I really saw which worked well with no “levels” and only with mechanics outside it. Almost all of them are tabletop RPGs, with precious few computer games . . . I think Minecraft is the most recent one doing a good job of that. (Don’t tell me it has levels, that’s more of a currency than it is a status of power.)

It hasn’t quite been done yet and then balanced well.

At least it’s not as incredibly bad as it is in Munchkin . . .

EvE works awesome without levels.

Also, if there were no levels crafting would be much much more awesome, remember before they introduced ascended most mats were worthless? Thats direct impact of levels and tiers, now imagine if whole crafting was based on that principle. Just one of the benefits.

Levels just arbitrairly gate some things, and if you absolutely want to gate some things it can be done in so many different ways. Levels are just 1 and far from best (unless you presume players have been conditioned to having to see bigger and bigger numbers for sake of bigger numbers)

I do not play much or any alts. I play one character who i fall in love with through story and actions. I despise leveling. Thinking back if i would have picked this game and started as a new player with current new player experience system i would not have gone past the first 10 levels.
Leveling before this feature pack was more about crowing with your character and teaching new ways to survive with combat experience.