Guild Wars 2

MikaHR.1978:

Rhetoric – schmetoric, deeds counts and words are very cheap.

Also you actually directly compare this to NGE so you migth want to read your post again (it seems its you who havent actually read it)

I compare the RHETORIC used to the rhetoric used during the CU/NGE. Mostly because several people I personally know commented on the similarities and expressed feelings of unease. We all went through the CU/NGE and the resulting exodus, so yeah, we do know what we are speaking about.

And that rhetoric is depressingly the same. The whole ‘making it less complicated’ and ‘focusing on reward’. Even the focus groups who are all ecstatic about the changes were there for the CU/NGE too… as were the people defending the developers and calling objectors shortsighted etc. etc. As we both know, in the case of SWG the changes turned out to be disastrous.

I am quite well aware of the fact that the changes to GW2 are far far far less extensive. But they do seem to be in a similar trend: making the game ‘easier’, and prioritizing on new players over veteran players.

And of course new player retention is important, it is in every game. The big problem here, however, is that the ‘new player experience’ is also implemented for players who have 80s on their accounts, and who can be assumed to already KNOW all the things the developers want to gradually teach new players, and who for the most part liked the leveling as it was. For many if not most of these veterans, the changes feel like something is taken away from them. And that is one of the biggest sins in game development, and something that is likely to drive away veterans.

The golden rule is to NEVER EVER take things away from the existing player base. Add things, buff things, give new players some new toys, add optional tutorials, all fine.
But if you are a veteran leveling an alt, suddenly not being able to fight underwater, having to run back to a zone already explored to get SP, not seeing gathering nodes, unlocking abilities that are considered fun and necessary at a WAY later level… that does feel like taking things away.

MikaHR.1978:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

MikaHR.1978:

Becka Williams.4978:

If you’re exactly the same as a low level character in a low level area, what’s the point of having levels at all?

Arbitrary numbers just like in any other game.

I still think GW2 would be better with no levels at all (and i think that since launch)

And you can see how some players are fixated onthose arbitrary numbers “they moved weapon swap fron 7-15” without any consideration that they also adjusted xp curve so effectivly you get it at the roughly same time as before.

But now its “15” instead of “7” so it MUST be worse, right?

You know, I thought “no levels” would be awesome but the alpha build trying that apparently didn’t work. At least, that’s what I’ve been told.

I can count on one hand the RPGs I really saw which worked well with no “levels” and only with mechanics outside it. Almost all of them are tabletop RPGs, with precious few computer games . . . I think Minecraft is the most recent one doing a good job of that. (Don’t tell me it has levels, that’s more of a currency than it is a status of power.)

It hasn’t quite been done yet and then balanced well.

At least it’s not as incredibly bad as it is in Munchkin . . .

EvE works awesome without levels.

Also, if there were no levels crafting would be much much more awesome, remember before they introduced ascended most mats were worthless? Thats direct impact of levels and tiers, now imagine if whole crafting was based on that principle. Just one of the benefits.

Levels just arbitrairly gate some things, and if you absolutely want to gate some things it can be done in so many different ways. Levels are just 1 and far from best (unless you presume players have been conditioned to having to see bigger and bigger numbers for sake of bigger numbers)

Star Wars Galaxies had no levels, just skills, up till Spring 2005. And it thrived during that time, with over 200,000 subscribers (which was considered a truly huge number till WoW came along).

Broom.2561:

MikaHR.1978:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

MikaHR.1978:

Becka Williams.4978:

If you’re exactly the same as a low level character in a low level area, what’s the point of having levels at all?

Arbitrary numbers just like in any other game.

I still think GW2 would be better with no levels at all (and i think that since launch)

And you can see how some players are fixated onthose arbitrary numbers “they moved weapon swap fron 7-15” without any consideration that they also adjusted xp curve so effectivly you get it at the roughly same time as before.

But now its “15” instead of “7” so it MUST be worse, right?

You know, I thought “no levels” would be awesome but the alpha build trying that apparently didn’t work. At least, that’s what I’ve been told.

I can count on one hand the RPGs I really saw which worked well with no “levels” and only with mechanics outside it. Almost all of them are tabletop RPGs, with precious few computer games . . . I think Minecraft is the most recent one doing a good job of that. (Don’t tell me it has levels, that’s more of a currency than it is a status of power.)

It hasn’t quite been done yet and then balanced well.

At least it’s not as incredibly bad as it is in Munchkin . . .

EvE works awesome without levels.

Also, if there were no levels crafting would be much much more awesome, remember before they introduced ascended most mats were worthless? Thats direct impact of levels and tiers, now imagine if whole crafting was based on that principle. Just one of the benefits.

Levels just arbitrairly gate some things, and if you absolutely want to gate some things it can be done in so many different ways. Levels are just 1 and far from best (unless you presume players have been conditioned to having to see bigger and bigger numbers for sake of bigger numbers)

Star Wars Galaxies had no levels, just skills, up till Spring 2005. And it thrived during that time, with over 200,000 subscribers (which was considered a truly huge number till WoW came along).

I know, but id like to leave out SWG out, you see, people who have no clue started to mention NGE.

SWG had its set of problems, but pre CU/NGE it was somewhat unique (great ideas, bad implementation, still people loved it because of good ideas)

Broom.2561:

MikaHR.1978:

Rhetoric – schmetoric, deeds counts and words are very cheap.

Also you actually directly compare this to NGE so you migth want to read your post again (it seems its you who havent actually read it)

I compare the RHETORIC used to the rhetoric used during the CU/NGE. Mostly because several people I personally know commented on the similarities and expressed feelings of unease. We all went through the CU/NGE and the resulting exodus, so yeah, we do know what we are speaking about.

And that rhetoric is depressingly the same. The whole ‘making it less complicated’ and ‘focusing on reward’. Even the focus groups who are all ecstatic about the changes were there for the CU/NGE too… as were the people defending the developers and calling objectors shortsighted etc. etc. As we both know, in the case of SWG the changes turned out to be disastrous.

I am quite well aware of the fact that the changes to GW2 are far far far less extensive. But they do seem to be in a similar trend: making the game ‘easier’, and prioritizing on new players over veteran players.

And of course new player retention is important, it is in every game. The big problem here, however, is that the ‘new player experience’ is also implemented for players who have 80s on their accounts, and who can be assumed to already KNOW all the things the developers want to gradually teach new players, and who for the most part liked the leveling as it was. For many if not most of these veterans, the changes feel like something is taken away from them. And that is one of the biggest sins in game development, and something that is likely to drive away veterans.

The golden rule is to NEVER EVER take things away from the existing player base. Add things, buff things, give new players some new toys, add optional tutorials, all fine.
But if you are a veteran leveling an alt, suddenly not being able to fight underwater, having to run back to a zone already explored to get SP, not seeing gathering nodes, unlocking abilities that are considered fun and necessary at a WAY later level… that does feel like taking things away.

Dude, impact to “vets” is so insignificant that we have to make new saying – making a mountain out of neutrino.

And connection to NGE is so far away even Hubble woldnt pick it up

MikaHR.1978:

Broom.2561:

MikaHR.1978:

Rhetoric – schmetoric, deeds counts and words are very cheap.

Also you actually directly compare this to NGE so you migth want to read your post again (it seems its you who havent actually read it)

I compare the RHETORIC used to the rhetoric used during the CU/NGE. Mostly because several people I personally know commented on the similarities and expressed feelings of unease. We all went through the CU/NGE and the resulting exodus, so yeah, we do know what we are speaking about.

And that rhetoric is depressingly the same. The whole ‘making it less complicated’ and ‘focusing on reward’. Even the focus groups who are all ecstatic about the changes were there for the CU/NGE too… as were the people defending the developers and calling objectors shortsighted etc. etc. As we both know, in the case of SWG the changes turned out to be disastrous.

I am quite well aware of the fact that the changes to GW2 are far far far less extensive. But they do seem to be in a similar trend: making the game ‘easier’, and prioritizing on new players over veteran players.

And of course new player retention is important, it is in every game. The big problem here, however, is that the ‘new player experience’ is also implemented for players who have 80s on their accounts, and who can be assumed to already KNOW all the things the developers want to gradually teach new players, and who for the most part liked the leveling as it was. For many if not most of these veterans, the changes feel like something is taken away from them. And that is one of the biggest sins in game development, and something that is likely to drive away veterans.

The golden rule is to NEVER EVER take things away from the existing player base. Add things, buff things, give new players some new toys, add optional tutorials, all fine.
But if you are a veteran leveling an alt, suddenly not being able to fight underwater, having to run back to a zone already explored to get SP, not seeing gathering nodes, unlocking abilities that are considered fun and necessary at a WAY later level… that does feel like taking things away.

Dude, impact to “vets” is so insignificant that we have to make new saying – making a mountain out of neutrino.

And connection to NGE is so far away even Hubble woldnt pick it up

Which must be why my guild’s SWG veterans are commenting on similarities of language.

As to the impact to vets being insignificant… er, yes, that must be why so many are posting negative comments and are outright upset.

Frankly, sir or madam, you’re being quite argumentative – and occasionally outright insulting – over what is in the end a matter of varying personal experience and perspective.

I played SWG from 2003-2005, led a large guild on Bloodfin, saw the huge population decline after the CU, and saw my entire server die inside a week when the NGE hit. Spent hours on the test server to check both of those out, got forum banned by Garva himself for posting constructive criticism, like so many others. So sure, I’m probably clueless.

“Profession skill F4 (Unlocked at level 24)”

… do you seriously mean to tell me I cannot swap my pet or attune to earth attunement before level 24? If that’s true, it’s excessively stupid O.o

Everything they say about this being bugs and minconceptions is the same, as the guy you cought in the middle of crowd with his hand in your pocket – claiming he needed support due to muscle exhaustion …

Now how likely would be such man to continue stealing from you if you actually belived that explanation? (allowing him to continue his attempts until he obtain everything you own)

For me this is not a game anymore – it is a money scheme. And they dont want even to delete my account (I do not even mention lack of refund/resale possibility).

MikaHR.1978:

EvE works awesome without levels.

But I don’t play EvE Online, and haven’t checked it out so I don’t speak for how it is or is not awesome. I hope you can appreciate that.

The last MMO I played with no levels was Ultima Online, which incidentally is the last game before GW2 where crafting was more fun . . . primarily due to needing it for furnishing that awesome stone tower you bought.

Also, if there were no levels crafting would be much much more awesome, remember before they introduced ascended most mats were worthless? Thats direct impact of levels and tiers, now imagine if whole crafting was based on that principle. Just one of the benefits.

Indeed, I can imagine a lot of things if it were different. Such as if there was a different look to each tier of basic gear you could craft so your appearance could be affected. (They got halfway there and stopped – probably due to the artists not having time or energy to try designing 9-12 different craftable armors for each class in addition to all the others out there.)

Levels just arbitrairly gate some things, and if you absolutely want to gate some things it can be done in so many different ways. Levels are just 1 and far from best (unless you presume players have been conditioned to having to see bigger and bigger numbers for sake of bigger numbers)

Levels . . . hmm. I’m sorry, I can’t agree with this. Once you decide you want levels, there is a certain amount of stress which gets removed about how to structure things. There is not always anything “arbitrary” about how it gets structured.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

MikaHR.1978:

EvE works awesome without levels.

But I don’t play EvE Online, and haven’t checked it out so I don’t speak for how it is or is not awesome. I hope you can appreciate that.

The last MMO I played with no levels was Ultima Online, which incidentally is the last game before GW2 where crafting was more fun . . . primarily due to needing it for furnishing that awesome stone tower you bought.

Also, if there were no levels crafting would be much much more awesome, remember before they introduced ascended most mats were worthless? Thats direct impact of levels and tiers, now imagine if whole crafting was based on that principle. Just one of the benefits.

Indeed, I can imagine a lot of things if it were different. Such as if there was a different look to each tier of basic gear you could craft so your appearance could be affected. (They got halfway there and stopped – probably due to the artists not having time or energy to try designing 9-12 different craftable armors for each class in addition to all the others out there.)

Levels just arbitrairly gate some things, and if you absolutely want to gate some things it can be done in so many different ways. Levels are just 1 and far from best (unless you presume players have been conditioned to having to see bigger and bigger numbers for sake of bigger numbers)

Levels . . . hmm. I’m sorry, I can’t agree with this. Once you decide you want levels, there is a certain amount of stress which gets removed about how to structure things. There is not always anything “arbitrary” about how it gets structured.

In addition to that, the exsistence of traiding is ruining any non-level approach.
You could simply buy the strongest armor from the get-go.
Not to say that I’m against the idea, it’s just not possible in GW2.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

In addition to that, the exsistence of traiding is ruining any non-level approach.
You could simply buy the strongest armor from the get-go.
Not to say that I’m against the idea, it’s just not possible in GW2.

And Droknar Runs destroyed any sense of people waiting to get the good armor until the appropriate time in Prophecies

Changer the Elder.2948:

“Profession skill F4 (Unlocked at level 24)”

… do you seriously mean to tell me I cannot swap my pet or attune to earth attunement before level 24? If that’s true, it’s excessively stupid O.o

Yes this is true.

Swapping pets was an extremely helpful tactic for a ranger in early levels. As was the Earth attunement for the Elementatlist. Also, it allowed for someone to associate as an earth elementalist, character-wise.

You know, all the fun stuff.

I wonder if their interviews with players who quit, actually revealed how displeased mostly everyone is with the rewards in this game. Blues and Greens, are not rewarding. On top of that, we are prevented from doing something more than once in a 24-hour period, if we want any type of reward out of anyways, or rather the chance at a decent reward. There’s a distinct lack of rewards for harder encounters as well. Nobody really does Tequatl after it was made more challenging. And don’t get anyone started on the Triple Trouble of wurms, as practically nobody does that anymore at all. It’s encounters designed wrong, encounters who requires way too many players and that takes far too long a time to complete over any other world event that may be up at the time. At least there are a few unique drops in these encounters, but you can’t sell Ascended, nor do they look good, so the interest is dampened. They’re also extremely static. Take Shatterer as an example of how terrible most of these encounters really are; we are all, grouped up on its right hand side, with it pouncing and attacking straight ahead. It pays no attention to the hundred-man army killing it. It’s not dynamic, and it isn’t engaging. It’s ridiculous. Why isn’t it turning around, attacking us at its side? Why doesn’t it fly and land somewhere else nearby? Why is it so blatantly scripted? (That’s not to say you should kill off anyone doing anything by making it too complicated, or too difficult, but at least make it fun, and put some fun rewards in all these encounters who are practically Guild Wars 2’s version of raiding.)

This is where ArenaNet needs to work on things. Rewards. Not trying to make leveling into a reward by slowly unlocking things. Pretty much nobody has ever enjoyed leveling in a game because it unlocked more and more skills, or the ability to dye something… They endure it because they want to reach the highest level and expect the fun to be there, the end-game. I will give ArenaNet the compliment again of saying this was the first MMO game in which I found leveling to not be a drag, I actually really enjoyed it. But I never felt rewarded and I still don’t to this day. I got blues and greens, and this is what I mostly get to this day. Fun.. There’s also an excessive amount of Account Bound things that are either worth a few silver to a vendor and/or that I can’t even salvage. They take up space, so you’re given the choice of deleting your reward or simply having it take up space. I’ll ask as I have before, who wants to delete their reward, for nothing. Drag it out of their inventory, click confirm and poof, it’s gone. That is not rewarding, that’s discouraging. And who wants to sell their top tier items for a silver.. a silver! If it was because players deemed their value to be a silver, that’s different, over the game saying you can’t even try sell them to other players and the vendors are willing to grant you a measly silver for it, that’s just.. annoying. It doesn’t feel rewarding.

Again, Karma. Used to feel rewarding, you could buy Exotics, armor as you leveled up, you could salvage and vendor these things. Then we have one incident, of some group of lame players exploiting one little mistake you make with the cost of some Karma reward. And you go bonkers and make it impossible to sell and salvage them. Why is it that you have kept it like this for nearly two years now. Why is this not “fixed” yet? I have not purchased Karma gear as I leveled up since that day. I don’t like destroying my rewards with nothing in return.

Also, why do we have a single sPvP map with a new game mode added? One TDM map. One! Why is the Borderlands of World vs. World still a copy-paste. We have two maps, Eternal Battlegrounds and Borderlands. Edge of the Mist was and is a great map, but it’s not included in the matchup, so that hardly counts. It’s not like players PvP there anyways.. they run in circles avoiding each other to farm it like a PvE map. Why do we have only two new PvE maps (three if you count EotM), which aren’t even the size of the original maps, combined, added over the course of two years. You have a massive world to take from. It exists in Guild Wars: Prophecies, Factions, Nightfall and Eye of the North. We get one map that’s barely used, Southsun Cove, and one that is, well actually quite awesome, Dry Top, but that’s it though.

Over the course of two years, you have given us content, I’m not saying you haven’t. But where is all the content from the Living Story, Season 1. It’s gone, poof, it’s nowhere. You haven’t expanded your game. There’s hardly more content for a new player today, than there was a year ago. There is the problem. The game is stalling, it’s not rewarding, and you can only have fun for so long with the same toys provided to you. Player retention comes with rewards and new things to do. Players play for rewards. “Fun” is only rewarding for so long.

I doubt very much that the complaints of players who left the game after a very short time playing centered on rewards, at least the way you mean them.

Becka Williams.4978:

If you’re exactly the same as a low level character in a low level area, what’s the point of having levels at all?

What this change illustrated for me, is that levels are highly overated, because focusing the progression on leveling actually made the game much more boring for me, and apparently many people.

people want to progress through playing the game, and mastering the game. How good a leveling system will be, is probably more based on how well the game can track, and award experience, for playing/mastering the game, and not so much on the mere existence of levels, and getting stornger through levels.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I doubt very much that the complaints of players who left the game after a very short time playing centered on rewards, at least the way you mean them.

my guess is new player who left quickly was probably based on,

i dont see the point
i dont understand the purpose

i think their solutions hit some of these issues from the side.
they tried to give them a more familar system, so they would feel comfortable, and focus the purpose on leveling.

I dont think they gave them much feeling on the point though, and i dont think the purpose, leveling solely for reward, will keep them engaged in the game past the initial phase. I think more people will quit in the middle rather than the beginning, and overall less people will be interested in the game as whole.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I doubt very much that the complaints of players who left the game after a very short time playing centered on rewards, at least the way you mean them.

A good chunk of my friends stopped playing around Lv.15-40. They felt like they didn’t get rewards early on. They asked, so I honestly answered how it functions at end-game. You are restricted to getting rewards from encounters once per day, with it resetting at 2 a.m. CET, and you are honestly mostly looking at greens and blues, with one guaranteed better reward.

When they asked about expansions, I explained how the Living Story worked (at the time), how it’s a good chunk of content churned out, but how it disappears and are gone. They liked the idea of frequent content updates, but not that it went away and couldn’t be played again. They also asked about the rewards from them, and I showcased a lot of the rewards I had gotten. Some of them they liked, most they discarded as stuff they didn’t care much for.

They complained about the Achievement Point rewards, how the weapon skins were just horrible. They saw the prices of precursors after seeing my collection of Legendary weapons, and were simply discouraged at even thinking about the idea of getting those.

Some I convinced to stay a bit longer, to give it a bit more time, but once they got to dungeons and felt the rewards being terrible, they just handed in the towel. In the broad picture, they looked at rewards and the content available, and just stopped, moving back to other MMO games. I’m about the only player left out of my circle of friends, who is still playing (not counting friends I’ve gotten through playing this specific game, that are perhaps still playing, although a lot has recently quit due to lack of content updates in areas such as World vs. World).

I still enjoy the game, but understand how the game can feel unrewarding. I perhaps have a extra bit of love for the game, because I played Guild Wars. It could be that which is keeping me around, the nostalgia. Although if they’re planning to destroy all evidence of the previous game, such as Old Lion’s Arch under the waters of Lion’s Arch.. I dunno, stuff like that really got me annoyed. (As a side-note: Why in the world did you destroy that? It was my first “Oh my gawd! Skweeee— It’s Lion’s Arch! I know this place! Wooooooo~ excitement!” in Guild Wars 2, and now it’s obliterated because you couldn’t put that darn machine a bit further to the other side of the map. You destroyed a landmark people can recognize from the old game and get excited over. Just.. why?)

Everyone has said that the combat was fun though. It just wasn’t rewarding, nor did it seem like it would get any more rewarding. Legit concerns which are somewhat true.

Gamers aren’t some unintelligent drivel that are unable to get information about how things are going to turn out later on. They may start to feel a certain way early on, maybe around Lv.15? Where are my rewards? Does my rewards get better later on? How much is a precursor, these legendaries look awesome. What content is there to do? They’ll ask fellow gamers, friends or strangers, they’ll read articles, forum posts, comments on websites about the game. They’ll watch videos on YouTube, they’ll look at streams over at Twitch. They are able to get the information, and will be able to make up their minds on if they find this to be worth their time. Sadly, for me, my friends went with “Why bother?” and quit. They just didn’t see the reason in leveling to end-game when there were practically no end-game for them to be had. There weren’t any rewards and the content available wasn’t really all that much to shout hoorah over. At least for them.

Recently I’m losing more and more of my in-game GW2 friends who enjoy WvW as their main venue, to other games. There’s hardly been any updates to WvW over the course of two years. I mean more in the sense of freshness, new maps. We got Edge of the Mists, but it’s.. a PvE map. At least it’s turned into one, with it not being a part of the match-ups. They’ve always felt their rewards are rather.. meager. And there not really being a incentive to win. Why bother? What do you get? Pride? What is pride going to get you in the long run of playing a video game? You want rewards. It all boils down to rewards.

Absconditus.6804:

Gamers aren’t some unintelligent drivel that are unable to get information about how things are going to turn out later on. They may start to feel a certain way early on, maybe around Lv.15? Where are my rewards? Does my rewards get better later on? How much is a precursor, these legendaries look awesome.

Agree with you. The rewards are terrible. I saved the Summit leaders and all I got was some grey items (goop, broken lockpicks, etc.). Oh, and one green item. Wow.

Killing Zhaitan should net everyone at least an ascended weapon – if not a legendary. Hey, you just helped kill the game’s ultimate threat and you get a hearty handshake and get to watch some credits. Seriously bad rewards.

Cyrus.2987:

Everything they say about this being bugs and minconceptions is the same, as the guy you cought in the middle of crowd with his hand in your pocket – claiming he needed support due to muscle exhaustion …

Yeah. And, that’s why I can’t take Arenanet seriously anymore. Their PR is laughably bad. As far as “bugs” most of the bugs are extremely obvious. So, there’s really only a few things which we aren’t sure are bugs. For the most part, the things people have been complaining about are not bugs, but design features that were specifically programmed into the game. Series 7 was a bug, the scaling issues are a bug, the experience scaling is a bug. Not being able to use Skill Challenge or personal story before specific levels is not a bug, and it would insult our intelligence if Arenanet would try to lead us to believe that these sorts of features are bugs.

Sokia.3710:

Cyrus.2987:

Everything they say about this being bugs and minconceptions is the same, as the guy you cought in the middle of crowd with his hand in your pocket – claiming he needed support due to muscle exhaustion …

Yeah. And, that’s why I can’t take Arenanet seriously anymore. Their PR is laughably bad. As far as “bugs” most of the bugs are extremely obvious. So, there’s really only a few things which we aren’t sure are bugs. For the most part, the things people have been complaining about are not bugs, but design features that were specifically programmed into the game.

Except for those things which are the features not working properly. Though we only have the word of the developers on what is “proper” and not. Make of that what you will.

Series 7 was a bug, the scaling issues are a bug, the experience scaling is a bug. Not being able to use Skill Challenge or personal story before specific levels is not a bug, and it would insult our intelligence if Arenanet would try to lead us to believe that these sorts of features are bugs.

I really wish they had another word for “features which we set up and worked but not in the ways we thought they were going to”. Because that seems to be the bugs you listed there – things which they worked on, made sure functioned and now are going “wait what”.

. . . what the heck is Series 7 anyway?

For the record, currently playing a fresh norn ranger. At level one in the prelude instance, I could dodge. I could equip bags if I had a means to fetch them, or other things with the right level. (I did not.) I could not control my pet, or open the pet window (K).

As designed, the end of the instance and reward for that story step jumped me into Level 2, during which I learned skill #2 on my longbow. I found I could charm a “Juvenile Raven” near the Raven Shrine and equip it. I could see Points of Interest and Vistas but no Skill Challenges.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

For the record, currently playing a fresh norn ranger. At level one in the prelude instance, I could dodge. I could equip bags if I had a means to fetch them, or other things with the right level. (I did not.) I could not control my pet, or open the pet window (K).

As designed, the end of the instance and reward for that story step jumped me into Level 2, during which I learned skill #2 on my longbow. I found I could charm a “Juvenile Raven” near the Raven Shrine and equip it. I could see Points of Interest and Vistas but no Skill Challenges.

Pet window unlocks at level five, along with the F1 and F3 ranger skills, tested and posted a screen shot to another thread.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I really wish they had another word for “features which we set up and worked but not in the ways we thought they were going to”. Because that seems to be the bugs you listed there – things which they worked on, made sure functioned and now are going “wait what”.

I hope I’m not misreading your post. But, you seem to be implying that the personal story being level-locked is a bug.

. . . what the heck is Series 7 anyway?

Summon 7-Series Golem
Summon a 7-Series attacking golem to fight for you.

Duration: 40 seconds
Activation time: 2 seconds
Recharge: 180 seconds
This skill cannot be used underwater.

Skill points required to learn: 10

Race: Asura
Slot: Elite (tier 1)

Sokia.3710:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

I really wish they had another word for “features which we set up and worked but not in the ways we thought they were going to”. Because that seems to be the bugs you listed there – things which they worked on, made sure functioned and now are going “wait what”.

I hope I’m not misreading your post. But, you seem to be implying that the personal story being level-locked is a bug.

. . . you are misreading or I misstated. I know that was said to be intentional. So that players could get to level 10 and have the unlocks under their belt before doing it, I imagine. Or, you know, so we don’t have “Doc Howler is too hard, his poison is murderous!” “Condi cleanse you idiot”.

. . . what the heck is Series 7 anyway?

Summon 7-Series Golem
Summon a 7-Series attacking golem to fight for you.

Duration: 40 seconds
Activation time: 2 seconds
Recharge: 180 seconds
This skill cannot be used underwater.

Skill points required to learn: 10

Race: Asura
Slot: Elite (tier 1)

. . . that’d explain it. I never leveled an asura to 30 before. Can’t stand them.

Vayne.8563:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

For the record, currently playing a fresh norn ranger. At level one in the prelude instance, I could dodge. I could equip bags if I had a means to fetch them, or other things with the right level. (I did not.) I could not control my pet, or open the pet window (K).

As designed, the end of the instance and reward for that story step jumped me into Level 2, during which I learned skill #2 on my longbow. I found I could charm a “Juvenile Raven” near the Raven Shrine and equip it. I could see Points of Interest and Vistas but no Skill Challenges.

Pet window unlocks at level five, along with the F1 and F3 ranger skills, tested and posted a screen shot to another thread.

Indeed, I just got it after a DE.

. . . yes, it seems you do level faster now. So you do learn to control your pet at level 5 and not 22. (What the heck made people think it was that far into the game?)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

For the record, currently playing a fresh norn ranger. At level one in the prelude instance, I could dodge. I could equip bags if I had a means to fetch them, or other things with the right level. (I did not.) I could not control my pet, or open the pet window (K).

As designed, the end of the instance and reward for that story step jumped me into Level 2, during which I learned skill #2 on my longbow. I found I could charm a “Juvenile Raven” near the Raven Shrine and equip it. I could see Points of Interest and Vistas but no Skill Challenges.

Pet window unlocks at level five, along with the F1 and F3 ranger skills, tested and posted a screen shot to another thread.

Indeed, I just got it after a DE.

. . . yes, it seems you do level faster now. So you do learn to control your pet at level 5 and not 22. (What the heck made people think it was that far into the game?)

The F2 skill isn’t unlocked at 5 but all the others are, including the pet window. Apparently someone published a chart of when things unlock, but it may be that different professions have different skills unlock at different times. So in their profession F3 unlocked later.

But that’s just a guess.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . you are misreading or I misstated.

You just weren’t specific in regards to which of my examples you were referring to.

I just wanted to make sure that you weren’t implying that the level lock on things like PS and Skill Challenge are bugs.

. . . that’d explain it. I never leveled an asura to 30 before. Can’t stand them.

Yeah. I don’t really like playing Asura, either. They’re not my style, although I love the whole science/invention theme of their race. Science is boss.

Sokia.3710:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

. . . you are misreading or I misstated.

You just weren’t specific in regards to which of my examples you were referring to.

Mea culpa. I’m tired and was hurriedly trying to push a new character creation through in order to try this tonight before it got too far from when I got the character slot just to try on this.

I just wanted to make sure that you weren’t implying that the level lock on things like PS and Skill Challenge are bugs.

No, I think they’re just semi-natural extensions of knowing new players could be facing them alone. I know I had to for most of them, and it took me being significantly overleveled to do the one Skill Challenge in Queensdale (Altar Brook Run, the one with the three bandits?)

The PS, like I said, I had one topic I went active in and started a character just to prove a point. It was how Doc Howler was nigh impossible to kill for a thief, if I recall, due to his poison darts. I specifically didn’t overlevel and kept an eye out for the attack to dodge it. I did it on the first try, but . . . reading through the topic it was clear there were a lot of problems over not being aware of how to cure conditions or how crucial it is to find ways to not get hit on that attack.

And I had one PS section which kicked the heck out of my Blood Legion warrior – I only beat it through sheer tenacity and abusing the heck out of Mace/Shield stun lock. I’m pretty sure a lot of other players might not even consider that option, or have it with their own characters.

As such, I find it hard to be . . . too critical of the level requirements now. At the least, it means if they go back and do a balance pass over it they now know what level people should at least be at before attempting them. As opposed to “I sure hope they’re not getting run by friends”.

ColinJohanson.2394:

because retaining new users at early levels wasn’t just a china problem we needed to solve, it’s a problem in the west too.

I can actually understand this.

I was one of those players, who played a few levels. Can’t remember how many. But I felt lost, confused and logged off…..for months.
I only came back to the game because of a friend. And playing it with him, I started to understand the game better.

I can’t say now, if these changes would’ve made more likely to stick around or not. But I can see how alot of players like me, played a bit, felt like they were getting no where, or didn’t know where to go/what to do..and just left.

My main concern is for veteran players. I really do hope you’re making changes so that we can level up much much quicker or skip some of it all together, to be more alt friendly. I have 3 lv80’s atm. I want more, but the leveling is tedious, when I could just do what I want with my already lv80’s.

ColinJohanson.2394:

because retaining new users at early levels wasn’t just a china problem we needed to solve, it’s a problem in the west too.

Then make the game more interesting, not more boring. You removed every unique heartquest in the beginner zones (golem chess, turning into a fernhound, dodging killer-rabbits) and turned them into generic “go there, click that” quests.

Straylight.7529:

ColinJohanson.2394:

because retaining new users at early levels wasn’t just a china problem we needed to solve, it’s a problem in the west too.

Then make the game more interesting, not more boring. You removed every unique heartquest in the beginner zones (golem chess, turning into a fernhound, dodging killer-rabbits) and turned them into generic “go there, click that” quests.

I found the Raven Shrine heart still existed, that one was one of my favorites since BWE2. Also seems the Snow Leopard Shrine one still has a form change on it which also was fun.

Hated golem chess – too easy to win at it. And the rabbit one made me really want to start a market for rabbits’ feet to Orr farmers for magic find boosts.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Straylight.7529:

ColinJohanson.2394:

because retaining new users at early levels wasn’t just a china problem we needed to solve, it’s a problem in the west too.

Then make the game more interesting, not more boring. You removed every unique heartquest in the beginner zones (golem chess, turning into a fernhound, dodging killer-rabbits) and turned them into generic “go there, click that” quests.

I found the Raven Shrine heart still existed, that one was one of my favorites since BWE2. Also seems the Snow Leopard Shrine one still has a form change on it which also was fun.

Hated golem chess – too easy to win at it. And the rabbit one made me really want to start a market for rabbits’ feet to Orr farmers for magic find boosts.

The rabbit one is still there though.

Vayne.8563:

The rabbit one is still there though.

. . . why are people telling me it’s gone? Oh right -grabs torch and axe- rabbit season time . . .

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

The rabbit one is still there though.

. . . why are people telling me it’s gone? Oh right -grabs torch and axe- rabbit season time . . .

They moved the heart down to the bottom. It’s now on the ground. I just did it a few minutes ago. I think they toned it down some though.

I’ve played a new character to 16 and plan on leveling to 80 in order to develop an accurate understanding of what has happened to character progression with the changes seen since launch and, primarily, related to the major feature updates.

So far, I’ve found the system irritating, frustrating and apparently aimed at people with an IQ below 85. (Since the NPE was formulated for the Chinese client, I have to assume that ANet has a very low opinion of the intelligence of Chinese players, which strikes me as pretty racist).

It’s no secret I’ve hated Living Story, not only on it’s own lack of merits, but because it took away the resources that were supposed to be spent on keeping Dynamic Event content fresh and making the game feel like it was alive.

However, I could still recommend the game to new players based on it’s core merits, even if I encouraged them to just ignore LS and play the rest of the game. Now, I can’t even recommend the core game, mostly as a result of NPE and previous moves to dumb down character progression to the Nth degree.

NPE fails as a teaching tool. Completely. It kills the flow of the game. (The best way to level to 20 had always been to complete two starter zones and grab at least the Skill Challenges in one or two others, doing DEs along the way. Now, Skill Point Challenges are hard gated prior to level 14, making “play and explore” a non-viable starting zone option). It also is confusing as hell, because while some of the “level unlocks” are hard locked, like skill points, others are not. They seem to be listed as level perks just to make newbs feel like they are progressing!

One of the bullet points is that they’ve “increased the leveling pace from 1 to 15”. Well, first off, I haven’t noticed much of a pace increase and, secondly, since you now have to go back through the zones you leveled in to get those Skill Points, (hard locked), POIs and Vistas, (soft locked), it actually takes a lot longer to complete early progression.

Under the current progression system, real progression, aside from artificial barriers you need to unlock, doesn’t really start until level 30 and, even then, only really happens every five levels or so.

Leveling used to mean something. Now 4/5th of your levels represent smoke and mirrors gains. The current system could be distilled down to 16 levels, the first four being feature kitten tutorial levels, with pitifully little effort.

If NPE and an effective reduction of progression from 80 to 16 levels isn’t a serious “dumbing down” of the game, then I’m Mary Poppins.

I really want an insider to write a book on how a potentially $Billion MMO morphed into the mess it is today. It would be one of the most fascinating business stories ever written and I’m personally dying to know how the same studio that launched the best MMO in a decade managed to then morph it into one of the most disappointing MMOs currently on the market.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

The rabbit one is still there though.

. . . why are people telling me it’s gone? Oh right -grabs torch and axe- rabbit season time . . .

It was a dark and bunny knight.

Straylight.7529:

ColinJohanson.2394:

because retaining new users at early levels wasn’t just a china problem we needed to solve, it’s a problem in the west too.

Then make the game more interesting, not more boring. You removed every unique heartquest in the beginner zones (golem chess, turning into a fernhound, dodging killer-rabbits) and turned them into generic “go there, click that” quests.

Did they remove the little droid (golem assistant?) that asks you to test the staff too? Or was he moved? I can’t find him now. That was one of the coolest things. I always made sure to do that one because it has/had cool animations.

It makes no sense at all to change the first 15 levels of stuff, especially in Rata Sum. The 1-15 zones were the highest quality content in the game. Maybe bringing them down to the level of the later zones is intended to keep new players from noticing the dropoff? Or maybe it is a bug, because the RC chess and golem assistant are still mentioned by the heart vendor?

EDIT – Wow, I just went through some more of Metrica Province. Everything in Lake Jetzt is gone.

One thing that would help with misinformation/misunderstanding would be if we could have an official list of the changes that were actually intended. The patch notes lack detail and I can’t find much in the way of detail other than trawling through staff responses one by one. This means that people are relying on third party videos and posts to give details when the people playing don’t know if what they’re reporting is intended or a bug.

MatthewMedina.5419:

But we were seeing a lot of places where people who would otherwise have become active users were churning out prematurely because of the issues that we’re addressing with the NPE.

If I may ask, where exactly did you see all these people who quit the game because it was too confusing for new players?

I am a regular reader of the Players Helping Players forum, and I have never seen someone complaining that having 5 sword skills on a warrior by level 5 is too confusing.

There have been “I am confused” posts, but these are more aimed at the quirks of GW2 – dodging / combo fields / downed state / etc.
These could have been addressed by having a reasonable tutorial section of gameplay (which could be skipped by those who don’t need it), rather than a wholesale re-working of the early stages of the game.

This may well get me an infraction, but to be honest, anyone who can’t cope with having 5 skills for a weapon (that they don’t even HAVE to use) after 5 minutes of gameplay, probably shouldn’t be playing computer games.
This level of dumbing-down is something I would expect in a game aimed at 6-year-olds.

CalamityO.2890:

Leveling alts(s) to level 10 and then unlocking all weapons skills by equipping each weapon is convenient. The rest really seriously do need a good looking in to.

I enjoyed leveling the weapon skills and looking at the list of weapons I could equip and then crafting or finding or somehow getting the weapons I hadn’t unlocked and unlocking the skills. It just sort of felt like a small little accomplishment.

Question: Is there some place where each change and its rationale is clearly explained by a developer? Other than an overall general “we are making it easier” statement?

Katz.5143:

CalamityO.2890:

Leveling alts(s) to level 10 and then unlocking all weapons skills by equipping each weapon is convenient. The rest really seriously do need a good looking in to.

I enjoyed leveling the weapon skills and looking at the list of weapons I could equip and then crafting or finding or somehow getting the weapons I hadn’t unlocked and unlocking the skills. It just sort of felt like a small little accomplishment.

Question: Is there some place where each change and its rationale is clearly explained by a developer? Other than an overall general “we are making it easier” statement?

Hush. You will accept the improvement and you will like it! Glory to hypnotoad!

naughteblonde.7194:

One thing that would help with misinformation/misunderstanding would be if we could have an official list of the changes that were actually intended. The patch notes lack detail and I can’t find much in the way of detail other than trawling through staff responses one by one. This means that people are relying on third party videos and posts to give details when the people playing don’t know if what they’re reporting is intended or a bug.

Oh, they’re probably still trying to work out which changes they want us to think were unintended. After so much time spent testing and testing and testing, things can get a little confusing.

Darfod.9375:

There have been “I am confused” posts, but these are more aimed at the quirks of GW2 – dodging / combo fields / downed state / etc.
These could have been addressed by having a reasonable tutorial section of gameplay (which could be skipped by those who don’t need it), rather than a wholesale re-working of the early stages of the game.

This.

It’s not just a dumbing down of the game, it’s the fact that in the process of attempting to dumb down the game it has become not only less fun, but actually more confusing.

Anet tries to present this boatload of poor changes as if the ends somehow justify the means, but it seems to me that it actually fails miserably as an attempt to make the game more “friendly and engaging” for new players.

It’s just another round of horrible game design changes pushing the game closer to the edge of irrelevance.

Darfod.9375:

There have been “I am confused” posts, but these are more aimed at the quirks of GW2 – dodging / combo fields / downed state / etc.
These could have been addressed by having a reasonable tutorial section of gameplay (which could be skipped by those who don’t need it), rather than a wholesale re-working of the early stages of the game.

You may not have seen this, but a dev answered my question on this, basically saying the reason they’re not making an in-depth tutorial is because “It’s too hard”

JonPeters.5630:

nethykins.7986:

I know this sounds like a no-brainer, but:
Don’t you think a well developed, clear and concise tutorial would have at least curbed some of the issues you have with new players “understanding” the game, instead of changing the core game pacing?

Actually not. Generally speaking tutorials are hard to implement, boring for experienced players and overwhelming for new players. The best tutorial is a system that slowly puts the content out to players because it gives experienced players something to achieve while reducing complexity and option shock for new players.

Katz.5143:

CalamityO.2890:

Leveling alts(s) to level 10 and then unlocking all weapons skills by equipping each weapon is convenient. The rest really seriously do need a good looking in to.

I enjoyed leveling the weapon skills and looking at the list of weapons I could equip and then crafting or finding or somehow getting the weapons I hadn’t unlocked and unlocking the skills. It just sort of felt like a small little accomplishment.

Question: Is there some place where each change and its rationale is clearly explained by a developer? Other than an overall general “we are making it easier” statement?

And i hated grinding mobs for every single skill on every single weapon. I just felt it detracts from doing more fun stuff like events, hearts, collecting mats, doing POIs/Vistas….

Now i have the freedom to do whatever i want and dont have to endlessly grind mobs just to have basic weapon ability use.

DonQuack.9025:

Hush. You will accept the improvement and you will like it! Glory to hypnotoad!

All HAIL the hypnotoad :P.

nethykins.7986:

Darfod.9375:

There have been “I am confused” posts, but these are more aimed at the quirks of GW2 – dodging / combo fields / downed state / etc.
These could have been addressed by having a reasonable tutorial section of gameplay (which could be skipped by those who don’t need it), rather than a wholesale re-working of the early stages of the game.

You may not have seen this, but a dev answered my question on this, basically saying the reason they’re not making an in-depth tutorial is because “It’s too hard”

JonPeters.5630:

nethykins.7986:

I know this sounds like a no-brainer, but:
Don’t you think a well developed, clear and concise tutorial would have at least curbed some of the issues you have with new players “understanding” the game, instead of changing the core game pacing?

Actually not. Generally speaking tutorials are hard to implement, boring for experienced players and overwhelming for new players. The best tutorial is a system that slowly puts the content out to players because it gives experienced players something to achieve while reducing complexity and option shock for new players.

That’s . . . that’s not what he said . . .

MikaHR.1978:

Katz.5143:

CalamityO.2890:

Leveling alts(s) to level 10 and then unlocking all weapons skills by equipping each weapon is convenient. The rest really seriously do need a good looking in to.

I enjoyed leveling the weapon skills and looking at the list of weapons I could equip and then crafting or finding or somehow getting the weapons I hadn’t unlocked and unlocking the skills. It just sort of felt like a small little accomplishment.

Question: Is there some place where each change and its rationale is clearly explained by a developer? Other than an overall general “we are making it easier” statement?

And i hated grinding mobs for every single skill on every single weapon. I just felt it detracts from doing more fun stuff like events, hearts, collecting mats, doing POIs/Vistas….

Now i have the freedom to do whatever i want and dont have to endlessly grind mobs just to have basic weapon ability use.

you didnt have to endlessly grind monsters, you just had to kill them while doing whatever you were doing.
If you gained great exp while doing so, and was like level 10, the system then makes it so you get them with even less kills.

you can like whatever you like, but unlocking a weapon was no where near endlessly grinding mobs.
i guess the point is you hate killing monsters while you play. Ok thats a valid reason for yourself, but most other people dont mind killing monsters while doing hearts/events/getting mats from enemies, etc.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

nethykins.7986:

Darfod.9375:

There have been “I am confused” posts, but these are more aimed at the quirks of GW2 – dodging / combo fields / downed state / etc.
These could have been addressed by having a reasonable tutorial section of gameplay (which could be skipped by those who don’t need it), rather than a wholesale re-working of the early stages of the game.

You may not have seen this, but a dev answered my question on this, basically saying the reason they’re not making an in-depth tutorial is because “It’s too hard”

JonPeters.5630:

nethykins.7986:

I know this sounds like a no-brainer, but:
Don’t you think a well developed, clear and concise tutorial would have at least curbed some of the issues you have with new players “understanding” the game, instead of changing the core game pacing?

Actually not. Generally speaking tutorials are hard to implement, boring for experienced players and overwhelming for new players. The best tutorial is a system that slowly puts the content out to players because it gives experienced players something to achieve while reducing complexity and option shock for new players.

That’s . . . that’s not what he said . . .

he said tutorials are too hard for new players, and bore veterans.

and yet the system they instituted bores/annoys veterans greatly, and i dont really buy that it teaches people the basics any better.

phys.7689:

he said tutorials are too hard for new players, and bore veterans.

That also isn’t what he said. He said “good tutorials are hard to implement”. To be fair, Daniel Floyd showed it’s easy to not do a good one .

From the video: “This is hard to execute on…”

It really isn’t as easy as it sounds. See his “Rule #5” for why . . . and why ANet did this system rather than keep the other.

and yet the system they instituted bores/annoys veterans greatly, and i dont really buy that it teaches people the basics any better.

Yeah, on that I’ll agree a bit.