Guild Wars 2

Galen Grey.4709:

even there though nerfing gold income actually helps. the exchange rate between gold and gems is also tied to people’s income directly. If I am a farmer making 15g per hour will I mind paying 10g for 100 gems? no! so I will end buying all the gems I need which will drive the price up even more. Using gw2spidy and sampling various points in time you can clearly see the exchange rate has varied between the period in time gold per hour flactuating between 30 mins – 1 hr worth of income. So even there reducing gold income will actually help by most likely lowering the conversion price as well in the long run.

I wanted to come back to this because it makes a lot of sense and so I already was curious to see if this indeed would happen. Especially since there is nothing else going on that should change much on the gem / gold rate.

Before the nerf for 1 gold you could get about 9 gems. That was a stable number for a long time and before that is was 1 gold for 11 gems for a long time.

At this moment 1 gold will get you 6 gems. Going strait against common sense.

Well thats if the system works like Anet says it works. I would not be surprised if (In fact I think) they change those rate themselves manually. (Then again that might not me legal so I’m not sure how far they are willing to go)

Anything I wanted to add this as it was valuable information for the discussion.

Oow and based on what a lvl 80 earns without farming but by just playing the most ‘fair’ rate would be about 50 gems for 1 gold.

Danikat.8537:

If you know of a game that has a 100% success rate at preventing gold sellers please do say what it is. I’m sure Anet (and most other MMO companies) would love to find out how they do it.

Actually, until recently, a game called Mabinogi that’s hosted by Nexon was bot-free for about a year and a half.

Devata.6589:

Galen Grey.4709:

even there though nerfing gold income actually helps. the exchange rate between gold and gems is also tied to people’s income directly. If I am a farmer making 15g per hour will I mind paying 10g for 100 gems? no! so I will end buying all the gems I need which will drive the price up even more. Using gw2spidy and sampling various points in time you can clearly see the exchange rate has varied between the period in time gold per hour flactuating between 30 mins – 1 hr worth of income. So even there reducing gold income will actually help by most likely lowering the conversion price as well in the long run.

I wanted to come back to this because it makes a lot of sense and so I already was curious to see if this indeed would happen. Especially since there is nothing else going on that should change much on the gem / gold rate.

Before the nerf for 1 gold you could get about 9 gems. That was a stable number for a long time and before that is was 1 gold for 11 gems for a long time.

At this moment 1 gold will get you 6 gems. Going strait against common sense.

Well thats if the system works like Anet says it works. I would not be surprised if (In fact I think) they change those rate themselves manually. (Then again that might not me legal so I’m not sure how far they are willing to go)

Anything I wanted to add this as it was valuable information for the discussion.

Oow and based on what a lvl 80 earns without farming but by just playing the most ‘fair’ rate would be about 50 gems for 1 gold.

yes unless you factor in june 4th where there was a temporary drop where 1g would get you 11gems once again. I imagine because basically price fell down to a level not seen since march a lot of people took advantage and bought gems driving the price back up. But yes essentially this isnt really something that happens in the short term because people dont just rely on the current income they also have stored income and not just that but not many people would reason out what they can and cannot afford until money actually runs out. IE if you have say 500 gold in the bank and still making 11g per hour you’re not going to worry until that 500g starts falling rather then increasing kinda thing. For the past 2 days we got a downward trend again, we’ll see if it holds but its still a bit early to see meaningful changes probably.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Galen Grey.4709:

even there though nerfing gold income actually helps. the exchange rate between gold and gems is also tied to people’s income directly. If I am a farmer making 15g per hour will I mind paying 10g for 100 gems? no! so I will end buying all the gems I need which will drive the price up even more. Using gw2spidy and sampling various points in time you can clearly see the exchange rate has varied between the period in time gold per hour flactuating between 30 mins – 1 hr worth of income. So even there reducing gold income will actually help by most likely lowering the conversion price as well in the long run.

I wanted to come back to this because it makes a lot of sense and so I already was curious to see if this indeed would happen. Especially since there is nothing else going on that should change much on the gem / gold rate.

Before the nerf for 1 gold you could get about 9 gems. That was a stable number for a long time and before that is was 1 gold for 11 gems for a long time.

At this moment 1 gold will get you 6 gems. Going strait against common sense.

Well thats if the system works like Anet says it works. I would not be surprised if (In fact I think) they change those rate themselves manually. (Then again that might not me legal so I’m not sure how far they are willing to go)

Anything I wanted to add this as it was valuable information for the discussion.

Oow and based on what a lvl 80 earns without farming but by just playing the most ‘fair’ rate would be about 50 gems for 1 gold.

yes unless you factor in june 4th where there was a temporary drop where 1g would get you 11gems once again. I imagine because basically price fell down to a level not seen since march a lot of people took advantage and bought gems driving the price back up. But yes essentially this isnt really something that happens in the short term because people dont just rely on the current income they also have stored income and not just that but not many people would reason out what they can and cannot afford until money actually runs out. IE if you have say 500 gold in the bank and still making 11g per hour you’re not going to worry until that 500g starts falling rather then increasing kinda thing. For the past 2 days we got a downward trend again, we’ll see if it holds but its still a bit early to see meaningful changes probably.

Main question is where that sudden drop comes drop when the patch would suggest the opposite would happen. Sure that would not happen instantly but we we did see a sudden drop. So maybe it does not work exactly as we think.

It was just some information I wanted to add to the topic to show it’s not all that easy. You could see it from both ways. That’s all. Not trying to make a point with it but valid / interesting information I think.

Psichologas.1063:

Well I do know that some companies sue some websites for sharing their products for free on torrents, basically I don’t know if by law Anet could sue gold selling sites to get rid of them, it’s really easy to find those sites, other way would be adding gold sending limit, as most gold sellers send gold by mail. Indeed there is no way to 100% stop gold selling but are a lot of effective tools to reduce it.

yes they could sue them for damages, but they are generally on foreign soil, and they can pop up again pretty easily, its probably not woth the money and time, since they may very well see no return.

Galen Grey.4709:

1. It is always tricky to say what is OP and what is not but one thing I think happens is there is this prevailant believe that GW2 is all about DPS and nothing else. If you try to out DPS a warrior with a necro you’re most certainly going to fail and the warrior will feel OP. Thing is all classes can do a lot but they all have their own strength and weaknesses. If i am facing a warrior with my necro I will try to disrupt him as much as possible while putting in conditions on him for example.

2. no expansion doesnt mean no new classes or no new weapons. They can do that as well and they said it already that expansion or not there will be new weapons and new classes with an emphasis that new weapons would probably come first.

3. gold trading outside of what anet provides is already against the terms and if caught you’ll get banned.

4. mirrors what i said about 1. its not just about DPS, though people seem to ignore there is also the control and support aspect of a class as well. An elementalist and a mesmer can boost the whole party damage by 80% while also disrupting the enemy and removing conditions from allies as well as DPS a bit. that means you get more overall damage then having 5 straight up warriors while also mitigating a good amount of damage recieved by the party. It has its advantages.

5. I wouldnt say crafting is useless. Its a good way to gear up cheaply. A good way to trying to acquire a precursor or one of the rare named weapons. Its a good way to get consumables.

actually its not a good way to gear up, in general most crafting recipes are done at a loss, meaning the materials are worth more. Not really good for consumables except cooking, but a great many cooking recipes are not worth thier price in materials well. Honestly, ill say they did not put crafting in the world well, they built the game in a way so that everyone should craft, i dont think that is a good paradigm.

Nerelith.7360:

Devata.6589:

Nerelith.7360:

Devata I am starting to get the impression that this game was not meant for us. But for players that are perfectly content with buying everything at the Gem Store. Or Buying it at the TP, after grinding out the gold for it, or Bought the gems, to convert to gold for it.

In my opinion, doing the above makes me feel Like I am working a job.

~

The end result was a bag that sold On the TP for 13g. but that I needed to use a sigil that had a fixed cost of 10 to 11 g. I forget exactly how much. so pure profit? Is there any? This is why i stopped making bags.

When I play other games, I feel i am playing other games. When i play Gw2… I LOVE the mechanics of GAMEPLAY…. but the economy just makes me feel like Anet’s b****.

Well one of the main reason I did go for GW2 was because it was supposed to use the B2P model not F2P. that was great because I could then avoid exactly this sort of mechanics and thats one of the main reasons.. no I guess the main reason for my interest in GW2. Sadly the game is now more of a F2P game… as it focuses on cash-shop for income not on game-sales (as expansions are part of the game,, that also counts as game sales).

Also the hole idea of being focused on cosmetics.. The engineering profession we talked about before.. now thats the stuff I expect when you focus on cosmetics and casual game-play.

So is the game something for me or not.. It should be my (and your?) game. In the current state however it’s not the game it should have been.

Personally I also in other games never crafted for gold… well I did once find an item that was easy to make and sold good so then I started selling it but I was overall that was never a drive for me. I always crafted for myself. If I put something on a TP it was mainly because in many mmo’s it says “crafted by ..” and it was sort of a nice idea that somebody else is running around with your name. However yeah I did notice that usually there are some craft-able items that can make money. I haven’t seen that yet in GW2 but I am not sure.

Thee fact that you need to buy something in order to create something (when that item is expensive) is also something I dislike. It really tells that they want to make sure you did not get everything by farming the item.. you need to involve money with it.

I saw a Guy running around On a Mech-warrior Mount…. Similar to the asura elite…but VERY Steampunk ish…. Steampunk-esque?

I asked the guy " Oh wow, where did you get it? " was an engineer thing..turns out Not Only from engineer but also Not BoP.

When I used to play that game everything engineers made was BoP. or..only useable by engineers.

So I am making a new character and said " My alts need that."

Turns out they can also make a steampunk type helicopter. the thing runs on coal, tons of smoke polluting the place, I fell in Love at first sight.

THIS is what I think of when I think of cosmetics and casual.

Something totally useless in combat, but fun to ride around in.

but… the fact that gw2 is so TP/Gemstore centered. DOES feel like what people think about when they think.." Free2play/pay2win"

is it pay2win ? well as long as Gold sells in exchange for gems… it’s borderline….

This game needs More utterly useless in combat …but FUN items that can be obtained either from crafting…or from simply playing…

too much has Anet’s hands In our pockets. Starting with the salvage kits…

In other games you kill a mob, they drop cloth…

In THIS game unless you spend Money on a salvage kit, you cannot get cloth off mobs.

all the way through the creation proocess… nibble here, nibble there… Anet is nickle-and-diming us to death…. " Death by a Thousand cuts" kinda thing…

You don’t really seem to understand the concept of a gold sink do you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_sink

And seriously, oh noes, we have to buy salvage kits! You’re like those people who complain about the piddling 2s to use waypoints.

Galen Grey.4709:

@Nerelith

you keep acting like Gold sinks exist only in Gw2 . As I already explained thats not the case.
So lets go with your steampunkish helicopter.. I am assume you’re talking about the Turbo-Charged Flying machine right?

You may not need to use a salvage kit to get materials you need but there are some costs you need to pay in order to build that thing. Not just that but you also need to use picks and tools that have an ongoing repair cost not really any different than having to buy a salvage kit.

This shows you don’t know what you are talking about. Fact is, I mine fine and don’t have any mining pick, so don’t need to pay to maintain what i do not own.

Lets see shall we.

First is the recipe that you can only acquire by paying for it. – 18g
You need a hula girl doll that can only be bought from an NPC. – at least 80g

98g at level 70? The issue is not the direct or indirect costs it is how easy it is to generate money doing what I feel like doing. As an example, my girlfriend is a skinner, and at level 40, she banked 1,000g purely from selling skins. How much will we have by level 70? Will 98g be in anyway a significant expense? or will we barely notice?

Those are the direct costs but you also have indirect costs:
You need a pick and you need to repair it when it degrades.

Again, untrue. No pick needed.

You need tools to craft that degrades and also needs repairing now and then

we must be playing different games. I keep my hammer and other engineering tools in the bank. Maybe you mean if I have them with me, I need to pay to fix them when i die? Not sure, since I never carry them with me. All I know is… the only thing I need to pay to maintain is my armor, and weapons.

Tools…degrade? We talking about the same game?

You need to have high enough mining level that requires paying trainers at every stage.
You need to know how to smelt the ores involved and you have to pay trainers to learn them.

Agreed, but what you fail to even discuss is, you also need that in gw2. And in WoW the Gold is so easy to earn just going about doing what you feel like doing. Not having to go into dungeons and farm them repeatedly. I do quests, I get upgraded armor, I don’t need an AH to buy, and I sell to vendors what i get that way I do not use. And I have 5,000g in the bank by level 40 (playimng a Monk), because I like to use TSM. Again, None of these are relevant costs when the money needed for them is flowing into your pockets from just playing the game ayway you wish to play the game.

Unlike Gw2 where you need to play it as the devs decided to acquire wealth

Now dont get me wrong, Not bashing either game here. Gold sinks are essential for the economy and its a good thing they exist. Not just that but certainly not bashing the engineering profession in WoW, I’d love for something like that to exist in Gw2 for sure!

Just saying that it isn’t about how much it costs. it’s How Much it costs relative to how much cash can be gained by Simply playing the game anyway I wish…. as opposed to having to play specific content to acquire said welth.

My Girlfriend made over 1,000g by level 40 just skinning, and we have yet to see the inside of a dungeon. How does this compare with crafting in gw2? Where I need to buy a 10 g sigil to produce a bag that only sells for 11 to 13g.

calyx.9086:

You don’t really seem to understand the concept of a gold sink do you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_sink

And seriously, oh noes, we have to buy salvage kits! You’re like those people who complain about the piddling 2s to use waypoints.

I’ll ignore the insulting tone.

The fact is, I do understand the concept of Gold Sinks Just fine. My issue is not with the fact that they exist. They also exist in another game I play.

The difference is, needing to buy a 10 g sigil to sell a bag that then sells for 12g, when it costs me over 4g worth of materials that I could have simply sold on the ah… is a Bit stiff of a Gold sink.

it seems heavy handed, if not downright punitive.

In THIS game Crafting serves One purpose, acquiring XP, from crafting… and maybe crafting something of use at level 80.

In another game i could mention crafting provides items I can use, and enjoy using in and of themselves.

Second:

In another game, it is easier to just acquire Gold by playing the game doing anything i wish. I have 5,000 g in the bank at level 40. My Girlfriend has 1,000 g by level 40.

I Like to play Auction House, she just skins and sells for whatever Auctioneer recommends she sell for.

so yes, there are Gold sinks… but when money is easy to earn, no one cares about spending 4000 g for a artisan flying licence.

On the other hand when you only make 13g for a bag, .. 10g for a sigil that is mandatory to craft it…is steep.

How much can be earned by purely..Playing the game… is crucial to determine if a Gold sink is exorbitant.

:) ……………………..

I agree and disagree with some of what you’ve said. I do believe there is a balance issue between the classes and I think there always will but, but it needs to be actively worked on none the same. Warriors are OP, Guardians not as much, Mesmers – not as OP as warriors probably, but still OP. Truely there is probably some aspect of every class that is OP but I think Warriors and Mesmers to be the worst.

The game has been out for 2 years and as you said the content added has been sparse as far as what stays in the game to enjoy. An expansion usually adds (based on other games) several new maps, a new class, maybe a race. If Anet intends for the Living Story to replace the expansion concept then one new map (Southsun Cove) every 1-2 years isn’t gonna cut it. I would agree that another class would be nice and the addition of pikes/polearm and great axe weapon types would be welcomed by me. I would really love to see more of Tyria. I simply don’t believe that all the elder dragons… out of all of the world… are ONLY in the small portion of the map we see now. The whole world map is probably 3 times the size of what we can see in game.

What you said about profession roles… I don’t think giving each class the ability to perform every roll is a bad idea, but that isn’t even what they did. I sorta think I would have liked it if they did. What they did was remove the roles entirely. To me it makes dungeons feel like they lack structure or organization or maybe even the teamwork we’re used to from other games. Debatably of course. But now it feels like a stack-fest. Not fun, not engaging. That and you don’t really get a sense of purpose and accomplishment they way you might if you had say healed an entire group through a difficult dungeon. Anyways, too late now probably.

What you said about crafting is pretty agreeable. It would be nice to see some way that crafted items could be worth more. selling crafted items usually yields less than if you were to sell the mats for the item and if you lucky you may break even. I have suggested unique skins that would be desirable to the community that is only available through crafting and isn’t bind on pickup.

The game is B2P and you don’t have to pay a subscription fee. But that doesn’t mean we don’t have the right to complain about issues we see if we’re passionate about them. I love this game and support it. I do feel less compelled to play it these days, sadly but I still believe this game has the most potential of the games out there today. Some things said here may be premature as the second season of the living story is expected to change things. So we’ll have to wait and see and hope for the best. Ultimately if they put more time into the game and its content (living story aside) and a bit less into the gem store, people will be more invested into the game and purchase more gems anyways. That’s my opinion on the matter anyways.

Nerelith.7360:

calyx.9086:

You don’t really seem to understand the concept of a gold sink do you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_sink

And seriously, oh noes, we have to buy salvage kits! You’re like those people who complain about the piddling 2s to use waypoints.

I’ll ignore the insulting tone.

The fact is, I do understand the concept of Gold Sinks Just fine. My issue is not with the fact that they exist. They also exist in another game I play.

The difference is, needing to buy a 10 g sigil to sell a bag that then sells for 12g, when it costs me over 4g worth of materials that I could have simply sold on the ah… is a Bit stiff of a Gold sink.

it seems heavy handed, if not downright punitive.

In THIS game Crafting serves One purpose, acquiring XP, from crafting… and maybe crafting something of use at level 80.

In another game i could mention crafting provides items I can use, and enjoy using in and of themselves.

Second:

In another game, it is easier to just acquire Gold by playing the game doing anything i wish. I have 5,000 g in the bank at level 40. My Girlfriend has 1,000 g by level 40.

I Like to play Auction House, she just skins and sells for whatever Auctioneer recommends she sell for.

so yes, there are Gold sinks… but when money is easy to earn, no one cares about spending 4000 g for a artisan flying licence.

On the other hand when you only make 13g for a bag, .. 10g for a sigil that is mandatory to craft it…is steep.

How much can be earned by purely..Playing the game… is crucial to determine if a Gold sink is exorbitant.

The other game is irrelevant unless we all know the economy because the currencies aren’t normalized. I had tons of gold in another game, but in that game, gold filled the role that copper does in Guild Wars 2. I could have had a million gold and it would have meant nothing.

I played a game where I had 100,000 gold and I still couldn’t buy a decent weapon with it. Any game where gold is easy to get for everyone means greater inflation and things cost more. Any game with an auction house anyway.

If players can decide what to charge for stuff, they can only charge as much as players can afford. It’s a self regulated system. If everyone has more gold, then people selling stuff will charge more, because they can…that’s for rare items, obviously.

Vayne.8563:

The other game is irrelevant unless we all know the economy because the currencies aren’t normalized. I had tons of gold in another game, but in that game, gold filled the role that copper does in Guild Wars 2. I could have had a million gold and it would have meant nothing.

I played a game where I had 100,000 gold and I still couldn’t buy a decent weapon with it. Any game where gold is easy to get for everyone means greater inflation and things cost more. Any game with an auction house anyway.

If players can decide what to charge for stuff, they can only charge as much as players can afford. It’s a self regulated system. If everyone has more gold, then people selling stuff will charge more, because they can…that’s for rare items, obviously.

Pretty much this ^^^.

I had millions of gold (in coin or barter) in GW1. That doesn’t make ten thousand gold in GW2 a paltry sum.

Vayne.8563:

Nerelith.7360:

calyx.9086:

You don’t really seem to understand the concept of a gold sink do you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_sink

And seriously, oh noes, we have to buy salvage kits! You’re like those people who complain about the piddling 2s to use waypoints.

I’ll ignore the insulting tone.

The fact is, I do understand the concept of Gold Sinks Just fine. My issue is not with the fact that they exist. They also exist in another game I play.

The difference is, needing to buy a 10 g sigil to sell a bag that then sells for 12g, when it costs me over 4g worth of materials that I could have simply sold on the ah… is a Bit stiff of a Gold sink.

it seems heavy handed, if not downright punitive.

In THIS game Crafting serves One purpose, acquiring XP, from crafting… and maybe crafting something of use at level 80.

In another game i could mention crafting provides items I can use, and enjoy using in and of themselves.

Second:

In another game, it is easier to just acquire Gold by playing the game doing anything i wish. I have 5,000 g in the bank at level 40. My Girlfriend has 1,000 g by level 40.

I Like to play Auction House, she just skins and sells for whatever Auctioneer recommends she sell for.

so yes, there are Gold sinks… but when money is easy to earn, no one cares about spending 4000 g for a artisan flying licence.

On the other hand when you only make 13g for a bag, .. 10g for a sigil that is mandatory to craft it…is steep.

How much can be earned by purely..Playing the game… is crucial to determine if a Gold sink is exorbitant.

The other game is irrelevant unless we all know the economy because the currencies aren’t normalized. I had tons of gold in another game, but in that game, gold filled the role that copper does in Guild Wars 2. I could have had a million gold and it would have meant nothing.

I played a game where I had 100,000 gold and I still couldn’t buy a decent weapon with it. Any game where gold is easy to get for everyone means greater inflation and things cost more. Any game with an auction house anyway.

If players can decide what to charge for stuff, they can only charge as much as players can afford. It’s a self regulated system. If everyone has more gold, then people selling stuff will charge more, because they can…that’s for rare items, obviously.

The thing is, that in the other game, I have tons of Gold, and can afford anything i want, By playing the game, and not going to any extra efforts, which is my meaning.

I do not need 5000g to buy a sword On the AH, I do not need to spend 2 copper to buy a sword On the AH, I get the sword as a quest reward or a drop off some Mob.

I can understand the desire to put down all games other than your favorite game.

I can also say that I am level 40… and have the Money saived up for my level 60 flying mount Liscence. In Guild wars 2. for some reason 10g seems steep for a sigil, that i HAVE to buy to make a bag that sells for 12 gold, hence why i do not make bags.

I can understand the desire to color any other economy in any other game as worse than that of your favorite game, but that is as I said on another thread… trying to talk me Into disbelieving what my eyes can plainly see.

As someone once said " A recession is when you are out of work, a depression is when I am out of work."

" who are you gonna believe… me? or your lying eyes?" I choose to believe my lying eyes.

I Know when things are effortless game-wise. And i know when i can afford what i wish to buy, and Gw2 doesn’t help me feel either experience lately.

Nerelith.7360:

Vayne.8563:

Nerelith.7360:

calyx.9086:

You don’t really seem to understand the concept of a gold sink do you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_sink

And seriously, oh noes, we have to buy salvage kits! You’re like those people who complain about the piddling 2s to use waypoints.

I’ll ignore the insulting tone.

The fact is, I do understand the concept of Gold Sinks Just fine. My issue is not with the fact that they exist. They also exist in another game I play.

The difference is, needing to buy a 10 g sigil to sell a bag that then sells for 12g, when it costs me over 4g worth of materials that I could have simply sold on the ah… is a Bit stiff of a Gold sink.

it seems heavy handed, if not downright punitive.

In THIS game Crafting serves One purpose, acquiring XP, from crafting… and maybe crafting something of use at level 80.

In another game i could mention crafting provides items I can use, and enjoy using in and of themselves.

Second:

In another game, it is easier to just acquire Gold by playing the game doing anything i wish. I have 5,000 g in the bank at level 40. My Girlfriend has 1,000 g by level 40.

I Like to play Auction House, she just skins and sells for whatever Auctioneer recommends she sell for.

so yes, there are Gold sinks… but when money is easy to earn, no one cares about spending 4000 g for a artisan flying licence.

On the other hand when you only make 13g for a bag, .. 10g for a sigil that is mandatory to craft it…is steep.

How much can be earned by purely..Playing the game… is crucial to determine if a Gold sink is exorbitant.

The other game is irrelevant unless we all know the economy because the currencies aren’t normalized. I had tons of gold in another game, but in that game, gold filled the role that copper does in Guild Wars 2. I could have had a million gold and it would have meant nothing.

I played a game where I had 100,000 gold and I still couldn’t buy a decent weapon with it. Any game where gold is easy to get for everyone means greater inflation and things cost more. Any game with an auction house anyway.

If players can decide what to charge for stuff, they can only charge as much as players can afford. It’s a self regulated system. If everyone has more gold, then people selling stuff will charge more, because they can…that’s for rare items, obviously.

The thing is, that in the other game, I have tons of Gold, and can afford anything i want, By playing the game, and not going to any extra efforts, which is my meaning.

I do not need 5000g to buy a sword On the AH, I do not need to spend 2 copper to buy a sword On the AH, I get the sword as a quest reward or a drop off some Mob.

I can understand the desire to put down all games other than your favorite game.

I can also say that I am level 40… and have the Money saived up for my level 60 flying mount Liscence. In Guild wars 2. for some reason 10g seems steep for a sigil, that i HAVE to buy to make a bag that sells for 12 gold, hence why i do not make bags.

I can understand the desire to color any other economy in any other game as worse than that of your favorite game, but that is as I said on another thread… trying to talk me Into disbelieving what my eyes can plainly see.

As someone once said " A recession is when you are out of work, a depression is when I am out of work."

" who are you gonna believe… me? or your lying eyes?" I choose to believe my lying eyes.

I Know when things are effortless game-wise. And i know when i can afford what i wish to buy, and Gw2 doesn’t help me feel either experience lately.

First I tend not to badmouth other games. There are exceptions, but I wasn’t badmouthing anything. I was simply stating a truth that without knowing that game, the statement you made was completely meaningless. Your response changes nothing.

This isn’t my first rodeo. I’ve played a LOT of MMOs. And I mean a lot. Lotro, DDO, WoW, Guild Wars (I know it’s not a true MMO), Perfect World, RoM, TSW, AoC and I’ve tried a bunch of others.

I don’t badmouth them. I simply say this game is better for my play style, which remains true. It is. But you can’t compare economies from different games. Well you can, but you shouldn’t.

If you want to say I find gold to come by hard in this game, by all means say that. But another game’s economy doesn’t really tell us anything. What you’re essentially saying is I once played a game and that game had better quests because of whatever.

No one can argue the point unless you name the game and they’ve played it.

Vayne.8563:

If you want to say I find gold to come by hard in this game, by all means say that. But another game’s economy doesn’t really tell us anything. What you’re essentially saying is I once played a game and that game had better quests because of whatever.

No one can argue the point unless you name the game and they’ve played it.

I remember a couple games I played where gold (or rather, the standard unit of currency) was almost worthless when it came to buying things.

- I’ll fall back on the first: Meridian 59. On many servers it fell to the exchange of one high-level good (Dark Angel Feathers) for another. DAFs were fairly simple to get your hands on when you were high enough level, they weren’t heavy, and they were necessary components for more than a few high-rank spells which PvP players enjoyed/abused greatly.

- Ultima Online. Money was meaningless past a point, because it was often possible to just get money.

- EverQuest. The best items beyond a point were simply not traded due to being “No Drop”. Things that were traded were often for a considerable amount of Platinum, which was usually attained through farming, saving, scratching it up little by little.

- DDO: Before I found a need for gold to be useful, I ran into problems of premium currency being required. I was leveling too slow for people I’d met when I started so I wound up left behind and opted to jump ship for GW1 all over again.

Vayne.8563:

First I tend not to badmouth other games. There are exceptions, but I wasn’t badmouthing anything. I was simply stating a truth that without knowing that game, the statement you made was completely meaningless. Your response changes nothing.

This isn’t my first rodeo. I’ve played a LOT of MMOs. And I mean a lot. Lotro, DDO, WoW, Guild Wars (I know it’s not a true MMO), Perfect World, RoM, TSW, AoC and I’ve tried a bunch of others.

I don’t badmouth them. I simply say this game is better for my play style, which remains true. It is. But you can’t compare economies from different games. Well you can, but you shouldn’t.

If you want to say I find gold to come by hard in this game, by all means say that. But another game’s economy doesn’t really tell us anything. What you’re essentially saying is I once played a game and that game had better quests because of whatever.

No one can argue the point unless you name the game and they’ve played it.

I guess what he is saying is that in many other mmo’s you simply work directly towards your items. There is no gold-sink in that. In fact while working towards that you even earn some money.

Then the gold-grind in the game (his example is a flying license) should not be the biggest problem. Sure it might be costly but you do not start to need grinding gold to be able to buy it. So there is no real gold-grind in the game.

Now in GW2 for many items there is already a gold-grind. You can’t work directly towards most items so you are already in need of gold.. well depending on your play-style. I think somebody who does not care for such things and just runs WvW all day will ave plenty of gold.

Then it does not matter if we are talking about 1000 gold or 10 copper but the need for that 1000 gold or 10 copper and the ’ requirement’ to grind gold to get anything.

In his example he has a craft that he does (earning the mats easy in the game by directly working towards them) he then create things and can even earn money with it. In GW2 for many mats (higher tier mats at least) it’s not possible to work directly towards it. So it’s grinding gold to get them. Then in many cases you also need to put in an item you have to buy from a vendor, so more gold and then you have an item you can’t really earn any gold on. So then you craft for the items you might want but that are basically only the legendary weapons and the ascended gear (at lvl 400 and 500). So up until then it’s a complete gold-grind. Not so much playing the game as in the game of his example.

And in that way you can off course with no problem compare games.

Devata.6589:

In his example he has a craft that he does (earning the mats easy in the game by directly working towards them) he then create things and can even earn money with it.

. . . I dunno about more recent games, but in older ones I listed off, there was only one example I had of “easily finding it in the game” and that was Ultima Online. It was dirt simple to find iron, wood, and cloth to do the various crafts. Alchemy was slightly more problematic since reagents could be a problem in a highly populated area (vendors only stocked so much, after all).

The only game I tried crafting in was EverQuest and really, there was nothing but pain and gold loss going into any of those crafting disciplines. And to cap it, most of what dropped was far better than things you could craft. With maybe exceptions I could count on one hand which were added years after release.

There were two attempts to entice players to jump into the gold sink which was crafting, though. First was a set of quests using crafting skills of various types (almost ALL types in fact) to work up a chain of objects to a moderately useful high-level piece of armor. (Coldain Shawl quests, for those who played.) The trouble was, almost all the final pieces needed had to be crafted and couldn’t be acquired from other players. So off you go to the grind!

Later there was a much nicer example (in the Plane of Knowledge) but it still required you to do some ungodly grind to get the parts, let alone the skill required. Gods be with you for attempting the cooking leg of that one . . .

In GW2 for many mats (higher tier mats at least) it’s not possible to work directly towards it. So it’s grinding gold to get them. Then in many cases you also need to put in an item you have to buy from a vendor, so more gold and then you have an item you can’t really earn any gold on. So then you craft for the items you might want but that are basically only the legendary weapons and the ascended gear (at lvl 400 and 500). So up until then it’s a complete gold-grind. Not so much playing the game as in the game of his example.

Honestly, I don’t quite see why this is the case. Most crafted gear is worn through relatively fast, so it’s not a matter of needing a delay between level tiers. Furthermore, there’s an ample chance you’ll find rare gear often enough while pounding out gold for those Fine Materials you’ll be merely saving for your Exotic pieces and to work them up.

(Fun note: getting the Gift of Quartz makes this simple, since Celestial gear is more or less a piece of cake to get for.)

And in that way you can off course with no problem compare games.

Eh, GW2 is considerably more useful in its results than EQ and I don’t find it anywhere near as tough to get ingredients as I did my crafting in that game. (“Hey, let’s make the only crab meat you can get drop in the most annoying Elemental Plane to fight in!”)

. . . I do almost kind of miss East Karana silk farming though. Almost.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

First I tend not to badmouth other games. There are exceptions, but I wasn’t badmouthing anything. I was simply stating a truth that without knowing that game, the statement you made was completely meaningless. Your response changes nothing.

This isn’t my first rodeo. I’ve played a LOT of MMOs. And I mean a lot. Lotro, DDO, WoW, Guild Wars (I know it’s not a true MMO), Perfect World, RoM, TSW, AoC and I’ve tried a bunch of others.

I don’t badmouth them. I simply say this game is better for my play style, which remains true. It is. But you can’t compare economies from different games. Well you can, but you shouldn’t.

If you want to say I find gold to come by hard in this game, by all means say that. But another game’s economy doesn’t really tell us anything. What you’re essentially saying is I once played a game and that game had better quests because of whatever.

No one can argue the point unless you name the game and they’ve played it.

I guess what he is saying is that in many other mmo’s you simply work directly towards your items. There is no gold-sink in that. In fact while working towards that you even earn some money.

Then the gold-grind in the game (his example is a flying license) should not be the biggest problem. Sure it might be costly but you do not start to need grinding gold to be able to buy it. So there is no real gold-grind in the game.

Now in GW2 for many items there is already a gold-grind. You can’t work directly towards most items so you are already in need of gold.. well depending on your play-style. I think somebody who does not care for such things and just runs WvW all day will ave plenty of gold.

Then it does not matter if we are talking about 1000 gold or 10 copper but the need for that 1000 gold or 10 copper and the ’ requirement’ to grind gold to get anything.

In his example he has a craft that he does (earning the mats easy in the game by directly working towards them) he then create things and can even earn money with it. In GW2 for many mats (higher tier mats at least) it’s not possible to work directly towards it. So it’s grinding gold to get them. Then in many cases you also need to put in an item you have to buy from a vendor, so more gold and then you have an item you can’t really earn any gold on. So then you craft for the items you might want but that are basically only the legendary weapons and the ascended gear (at lvl 400 and 500). So up until then it’s a complete gold-grind. Not so much playing the game as in the game of his example.

And in that way you can off course with no problem compare games.

Only if you isolate the economy from the rest of the game. But then you use the word grind. If you need 10 copper you don’t have to grind gold. You have to do like a single dynamic event. You have to play and pretty much do anything. Chopping down a tree or mining a copper node will give you more than 10 copper.

The idea of a gold sink is important in a game where everything can pretty much be bought and sold. But you don’t have to do any of that, if you don’t want to.

You will get enough money to “live” in this game without grinding. That amounts right now to basically teleport fees, since they removed armor repair.

Do you need big bags? Not really. But if you did need very big bags, in theory you’d be playing the game. What do you need bags for if you’re not killing anything. If you’re not in a fractal or dungeon it should be pretty easy to find a heart guy to sell to.

Do you need 18 slot bags? I still have characters that don’t have them.

And karma is a currency too. Most weapons and armors at least while leveling can be bought with karma. Everyone says it’s a useless currency but it’s not if you happen not to have enough gold.

If you WvW a lot, you’ll have badges of honor that do much the same thing.

You can’t remove the economy from the rest of the game and try to analyze it. Or again, you can, but it would be relatively meaningless.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

First I tend not to badmouth other games. There are exceptions, but I wasn’t badmouthing anything. I was simply stating a truth that without knowing that game, the statement you made was completely meaningless. Your response changes nothing.

This isn’t my first rodeo. I’ve played a LOT of MMOs. And I mean a lot. Lotro, DDO, WoW, Guild Wars (I know it’s not a true MMO), Perfect World, RoM, TSW, AoC and I’ve tried a bunch of others.

I don’t badmouth them. I simply say this game is better for my play style, which remains true. It is. But you can’t compare economies from different games. Well you can, but you shouldn’t.

If you want to say I find gold to come by hard in this game, by all means say that. But another game’s economy doesn’t really tell us anything. What you’re essentially saying is I once played a game and that game had better quests because of whatever.

No one can argue the point unless you name the game and they’ve played it.

I guess what he is saying is that in many other mmo’s you simply work directly towards your items. There is no gold-sink in that. In fact while working towards that you even earn some money.

Then the gold-grind in the game (his example is a flying license) should not be the biggest problem. Sure it might be costly but you do not start to need grinding gold to be able to buy it. So there is no real gold-grind in the game.

Now in GW2 for many items there is already a gold-grind. You can’t work directly towards most items so you are already in need of gold.. well depending on your play-style. I think somebody who does not care for such things and just runs WvW all day will ave plenty of gold.

Then it does not matter if we are talking about 1000 gold or 10 copper but the need for that 1000 gold or 10 copper and the ’ requirement’ to grind gold to get anything.

In his example he has a craft that he does (earning the mats easy in the game by directly working towards them) he then create things and can even earn money with it. In GW2 for many mats (higher tier mats at least) it’s not possible to work directly towards it. So it’s grinding gold to get them. Then in many cases you also need to put in an item you have to buy from a vendor, so more gold and then you have an item you can’t really earn any gold on. So then you craft for the items you might want but that are basically only the legendary weapons and the ascended gear (at lvl 400 and 500). So up until then it’s a complete gold-grind. Not so much playing the game as in the game of his example.

And in that way you can off course with no problem compare games.

Thank you! Someone understood me. For a sec I thought…" am i Just Not making myself understood?"

And it’s She, not He :-)

Vayne.8563:

If you want to say I find gold to come by hard in this game, by all means say that. But another game’s economy doesn’t really tell us anything. What you’re essentially saying is I once played a game and that game had better quests because of whatever.

No one can argue the point unless you name the game and they’ve played it.

The reason I don’t name the name is, that sometimes the inclusion of 3 letters naming the game that shall not be named is enough to get the whole post deleted.

I do believe I have left enough information that the name can be determined.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

In his example he has a craft that he does (earning the mats easy in the game by directly working towards them) he then create things and can even earn money with it.

. . . I dunno about more recent games, but in older ones I listed off, there was only one example I had of “easily finding it in the game” and that was Ultima Online. It was dirt simple to find iron, wood, and cloth to do the various crafts. Alchemy was slightly more problematic since reagents could be a problem in a highly populated area (vendors only stocked so much, after all).

The only game I tried crafting in was EverQuest and really, there was nothing but pain and gold loss going into any of those crafting disciplines. And to cap it, most of what dropped was far better than things you could craft. With maybe exceptions I could count on one hand which were added years after release.

There were two attempts to entice players to jump into the gold sink which was crafting, though. First was a set of quests using crafting skills of various types (almost ALL types in fact) to work up a chain of objects to a moderately useful high-level piece of armor. (Coldain Shawl quests, for those who played.) The trouble was, almost all the final pieces needed had to be crafted and couldn’t be acquired from other players. So off you go to the grind!

Later there was a much nicer example (in the Plane of Knowledge) but it still required you to do some ungodly grind to get the parts, let alone the skill required. Gods be with you for attempting the cooking leg of that one . . .

In GW2 for many mats (higher tier mats at least) it’s not possible to work directly towards it. So it’s grinding gold to get them. Then in many cases you also need to put in an item you have to buy from a vendor, so more gold and then you have an item you can’t really earn any gold on. So then you craft for the items you might want but that are basically only the legendary weapons and the ascended gear (at lvl 400 and 500). So up until then it’s a complete gold-grind. Not so much playing the game as in the game of his example.

Honestly, I don’t quite see why this is the case. Most crafted gear is worn through relatively fast, so it’s not a matter of needing a delay between level tiers. Furthermore, there’s an ample chance you’ll find rare gear often enough while pounding out gold for those Fine Materials you’ll be merely saving for your Exotic pieces and to work them up.

(Fun note: getting the Gift of Quartz makes this simple, since Celestial gear is more or less a piece of cake to get for.)

And in that way you can off course with no problem compare games.

Eh, GW2 is considerably more useful in its results than EQ and I don’t find it anywhere near as tough to get ingredients as I did my crafting in that game. (“Hey, let’s make the only crab meat you can get drop in the most annoying Elemental Plane to fight in!”)

. . . I do almost kind of miss East Karana silk farming though. Almost.

The problem is… My complaints about Gw2 are froma crafter’s perspective, Not talking about Armor… talking about going somewhere. And farming the materials i need. So I can then craft what I wish to craft, and sell or use.

In Gw2 MY experience has been that if you need something Like ancient Bone… i takes an incredibly long period of time to farm… MY experience is, that after a certain amount of time, the Bone just stops dropping.

In another game I play, I take My warlock to A specific place, farm up frostweave. And I can do so quickly… craft a 20 slot bag, and either send it to My alts… or sell on the AH. There are only 2 items i need, to craft it… thread i can buy cheaply off a vendor… not a 10 g sigil for a bag that then sells On the TP for 12g. ( sweat shop rates)…. and something i already have because I disenchant all greens I come across.

Disenchanting with an item I crafted from something I crafted, from something I crafted, from a rod i could buy cheaply off a vendor.

As Devata said. I can go and directly farm the materials I want, and the side benefit is Gold. That I can then use on the gold sinks, such that I never notice the gold sinks.

Not go out and GRIND gold to then go on the TP to BUY the materials I need… cause then I need to grind for gold.. and makes it feel less Like a game, and More Like a Job simulator where I play a Poorly paid independant contractor of Anet.

PS I do miss silk farming in the East karanas.

PPS: There is a difference between grinding for gold, and farming for mats. I find the former unappealing since it turns the game into another job. But The latter quite entertaining.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

First I tend not to badmouth other games. There are exceptions, but I wasn’t badmouthing anything. I was simply stating a truth that without knowing that game, the statement you made was completely meaningless. Your response changes nothing.

This isn’t my first rodeo. I’ve played a LOT of MMOs. And I mean a lot. Lotro, DDO, WoW, Guild Wars (I know it’s not a true MMO), Perfect World, RoM, TSW, AoC and I’ve tried a bunch of others.

I don’t badmouth them. I simply say this game is better for my play style, which remains true. It is. But you can’t compare economies from different games. Well you can, but you shouldn’t.

If you want to say I find gold to come by hard in this game, by all means say that. But another game’s economy doesn’t really tell us anything. What you’re essentially saying is I once played a game and that game had better quests because of whatever.

No one can argue the point unless you name the game and they’ve played it.

I guess what he is saying is that in many other mmo’s you simply work directly towards your items. There is no gold-sink in that. In fact while working towards that you even earn some money.

Then the gold-grind in the game (his example is a flying license) should not be the biggest problem. Sure it might be costly but you do not start to need grinding gold to be able to buy it. So there is no real gold-grind in the game.

Now in GW2 for many items there is already a gold-grind. You can’t work directly towards most items so you are already in need of gold.. well depending on your play-style. I think somebody who does not care for such things and just runs WvW all day will ave plenty of gold.

Then it does not matter if we are talking about 1000 gold or 10 copper but the need for that 1000 gold or 10 copper and the ’ requirement’ to grind gold to get anything.

In his example he has a craft that he does (earning the mats easy in the game by directly working towards them) he then create things and can even earn money with it. In GW2 for many mats (higher tier mats at least) it’s not possible to work directly towards it. So it’s grinding gold to get them. Then in many cases you also need to put in an item you have to buy from a vendor, so more gold and then you have an item you can’t really earn any gold on. So then you craft for the items you might want but that are basically only the legendary weapons and the ascended gear (at lvl 400 and 500). So up until then it’s a complete gold-grind. Not so much playing the game as in the game of his example.

And in that way you can off course with no problem compare games.

Only if you isolate the economy from the rest of the game. But then you use the word grind. If you need 10 copper you don’t have to grind gold. You have to do like a single dynamic event. You have to play and pretty much do anything. Chopping down a tree or mining a copper node will give you more than 10 copper.

The idea of a gold sink is important in a game where everything can pretty much be bought and sold. But you don’t have to do any of that, if you don’t want to.

You will get enough money to “live” in this game without grinding. That amounts right now to basically teleport fees, since they removed armor repair.

Do you need big bags? Not really. But if you did need very big bags, in theory you’d be playing the game. What do you need bags for if you’re not killing anything. If you’re not in a fractal or dungeon it should be pretty easy to find a heart guy to sell to.

Do you need 18 slot bags? I still have characters that don’t have them.

And karma is a currency too. Most weapons and armors at least while leveling can be bought with karma. Everyone says it’s a useless currency but it’s not if you happen not to have enough gold.

If you WvW a lot, you’ll have badges of honor that do much the same thing.

You can’t remove the economy from the rest of the game and try to analyze it. Or again, you can, but it would be relatively meaningless.

You say you have characters without 18 slot bags therefore I do not need them.

Thank you for deciding for me what my needs are …lol…

Devata.6589:

Main question is where that sudden drop comes drop when the patch would suggest the opposite would happen. Sure that would not happen instantly but we we did see a sudden drop. So maybe it does not work exactly as we think.

It was just dome information I wanted to add to the topic to show it’s not all that easy. You could see it from both ways. That’s all. Not trying to make a point with it but valid / interesting information I think.

Its hard to say how people think / react and what could override their thinking.

There may be habbits like say I dont know I want to keep 500g in my bank and convert anything above that to gems when I can afford the price of a 100gems. So then a 30% nerf would result in 30% less sales in the same period of time causing a sudden drop. Which in turn coupled with the realization that I am making less gold then before could result in the person deciding to make use of the situation and buy gems with their reserve while the price is lowest its been in 6 months.

Thats one scenario that could explain what happened. It could also be people panicing and holding off buying gems right after the nerf fearing they’ll go broke now that its harder to make gold only to throw fear away the moment they realized price is lowest its been in 6 months.

Or it could also be farming readjustments maybe another farm was found that is as profitable as the one before.

Could be many things.

phys.7689:

Galen Grey.4709:

1. It is always tricky to say what is OP and what is not but one thing I think happens is there is this prevailant believe that GW2 is all about DPS and nothing else. If you try to out DPS a warrior with a necro you’re most certainly going to fail and the warrior will feel OP. Thing is all classes can do a lot but they all have their own strength and weaknesses. If i am facing a warrior with my necro I will try to disrupt him as much as possible while putting in conditions on him for example.

2. no expansion doesnt mean no new classes or no new weapons. They can do that as well and they said it already that expansion or not there will be new weapons and new classes with an emphasis that new weapons would probably come first.

3. gold trading outside of what anet provides is already against the terms and if caught you’ll get banned.

4. mirrors what i said about 1. its not just about DPS, though people seem to ignore there is also the control and support aspect of a class as well. An elementalist and a mesmer can boost the whole party damage by 80% while also disrupting the enemy and removing conditions from allies as well as DPS a bit. that means you get more overall damage then having 5 straight up warriors while also mitigating a good amount of damage recieved by the party. It has its advantages.

5. I wouldnt say crafting is useless. Its a good way to gear up cheaply. A good way to trying to acquire a precursor or one of the rare named weapons. Its a good way to get consumables.

actually its not a good way to gear up, in general most crafting recipes are done at a loss, meaning the materials are worth more. Not really good for consumables except cooking, but a great many cooking recipes are not worth thier price in materials well. Honestly, ill say they did not put crafting in the world well, they built the game in a way so that everyone should craft, i dont think that is a good paradigm.

well thats provided you have the money before hand though. If you just reached 80 its unlikely you’re going to have enough money to buy a full set but if you decided to craft it it will not matter. Granted you could always gather then material sell them and buy the stuff anyway, its an option sure but then you’ll also sacrifcing leveling your crafting and there are a few things that are cheaper to get / maintain with crafting then buying directly.

Did they? how is the game build in a way that everyone should craft? like you just said crafting is entirely optional and if anything not really the best option either in most cases. Think the issue is most likely that crafting gives leveling XP and thus a lot of people use it as a way to level their character up which in turn saturate the market with items that are sold simply to get some of the leveling investment back rather then to make a profit thus having people open to undercutting each other more then they should.

Galen Grey.4709:

phys.7689:

Galen Grey.4709:

1. It is always tricky to say what is OP and what is not but one thing I think happens is there is this prevailant believe that GW2 is all about DPS and nothing else. If you try to out DPS a warrior with a necro you’re most certainly going to fail and the warrior will feel OP. Thing is all classes can do a lot but they all have their own strength and weaknesses. If i am facing a warrior with my necro I will try to disrupt him as much as possible while putting in conditions on him for example.

2. no expansion doesnt mean no new classes or no new weapons. They can do that as well and they said it already that expansion or not there will be new weapons and new classes with an emphasis that new weapons would probably come first.

3. gold trading outside of what anet provides is already against the terms and if caught you’ll get banned.

4. mirrors what i said about 1. its not just about DPS, though people seem to ignore there is also the control and support aspect of a class as well. An elementalist and a mesmer can boost the whole party damage by 80% while also disrupting the enemy and removing conditions from allies as well as DPS a bit. that means you get more overall damage then having 5 straight up warriors while also mitigating a good amount of damage recieved by the party. It has its advantages.

5. I wouldnt say crafting is useless. Its a good way to gear up cheaply. A good way to trying to acquire a precursor or one of the rare named weapons. Its a good way to get consumables.

actually its not a good way to gear up, in general most crafting recipes are done at a loss, meaning the materials are worth more. Not really good for consumables except cooking, but a great many cooking recipes are not worth thier price in materials well. Honestly, ill say they did not put crafting in the world well, they built the game in a way so that everyone should craft, i dont think that is a good paradigm.

well thats provided you have the money before hand though. If you just reached 80 its unlikely you’re going to have enough money to buy a full set but if you decided to craft it it will not matter. Granted you could always gather then material sell them and buy the stuff anyway, its an option sure but then you’ll also sacrifcing leveling your crafting and there are a few things that are cheaper to get / maintain with crafting then buying directly.

Did they? how is the game build in a way that everyone should craft? like you just said crafting is entirely optional and if anything not really the best option either in most cases. Think the issue is most likely that crafting gives leveling XP and thus a lot of people use it as a way to level their character up which in turn saturate the market with items that are sold simply to get some of the leveling investment back rather then to make a profit thus having people open to undercutting each other more then they should.

they built the exp curve to have gaps, that they directly reccomend people to craft. In beta when people asked how come they were behind level following personal story and the stuff in zones, they said they expected people to explore, craft, complete maps, etc.

Not only that but they put legendaries behind crafting, which wasnt so bad, and then they put ascended (best in slot). They also put some of the festival items and what not behind crafting as well.
Its clear they expect everyone to craft in order to be the best at the game they can be.
Crafting exp, sounded good on paper, and i enjoyed it the first time, but honestly they should not have tied exp to production of materials.

What they could have done is given quests that can level up your craft and also give exp, that use up materials, IF they needed a material sink. Or they could have made the best exp/growth come from crafting for npcs, that costs no materials, then people would only use their own materials if they also wanted to profit.

That aside, some people dont enjoy crafting/gathering at all, forcing them to do, and have virtually no other option if they want to get good gear was a big mistake imo.

also if you have money beforehand or not, if the materials are worth more than 15% of the cost of the item, you would be wasting your time and money crafting them.

Except, as you say, if your goal is to get crafting exp, which as i said, is a flaw in crafing market (not unique to GW2) imo.

I think the reason so many developers do it, is so that crafters fill the need for players to have items but the pursuit of profit or a love of crafting should be the main reason someone makes an item

Galen Grey.4709:

phys.7689:

Galen Grey.4709:

1. It is always tricky to say what is OP and what is not but one thing I think happens is there is this prevailant believe that GW2 is all about DPS and nothing else. If you try to out DPS a warrior with a necro you’re most certainly going to fail and the warrior will feel OP. Thing is all classes can do a lot but they all have their own strength and weaknesses. If i am facing a warrior with my necro I will try to disrupt him as much as possible while putting in conditions on him for example.

2. no expansion doesnt mean no new classes or no new weapons. They can do that as well and they said it already that expansion or not there will be new weapons and new classes with an emphasis that new weapons would probably come first.

3. gold trading outside of what anet provides is already against the terms and if caught you’ll get banned.

4. mirrors what i said about 1. its not just about DPS, though people seem to ignore there is also the control and support aspect of a class as well. An elementalist and a mesmer can boost the whole party damage by 80% while also disrupting the enemy and removing conditions from allies as well as DPS a bit. that means you get more overall damage then having 5 straight up warriors while also mitigating a good amount of damage recieved by the party. It has its advantages.

5. I wouldnt say crafting is useless. Its a good way to gear up cheaply. A good way to trying to acquire a precursor or one of the rare named weapons. Its a good way to get consumables.

actually its not a good way to gear up, in general most crafting recipes are done at a loss, meaning the materials are worth more. Not really good for consumables except cooking, but a great many cooking recipes are not worth thier price in materials well. Honestly, ill say they did not put crafting in the world well, they built the game in a way so that everyone should craft, i dont think that is a good paradigm.

well thats provided you have the money before hand though. If you just reached 80 its unlikely you’re going to have enough money to buy a full set but if you decided to craft it it will not matter. Granted you could always gather then material sell them and buy the stuff anyway, its an option sure but then you’ll also sacrifcing leveling your crafting and there are a few things that are cheaper to get / maintain with crafting then buying directly.

Did they? how is the game build in a way that everyone should craft? like you just said crafting is entirely optional and if anything not really the best option either in most cases. Think the issue is most likely that crafting gives leveling XP and thus a lot of people use it as a way to level their character up which in turn saturate the market with items that are sold simply to get some of the leveling investment back rather then to make a profit thus having people open to undercutting each other more then they should.

The problem is Crafting is Bland and generic. You make armor? So what,…armor also drops off Mobs. Maybe the skin is different, but it’s the same armot.

You make a sword? or a Bow? Again…so what?

On another game, you can make a mechanical squirrel with engineering. You can make a Motorcycle. You can make a Robot that tanks for you, or an agro magnet that waves it’s hands with a cardboard cut out of a Big breasted woman sporting cleavage with a smile on her face.

The irony for me is…each of these items are items that casual gamers would love to have. Unfortunately Anet places them in the gem shop.

Why Not have crafting create cool items that have zero benefit to combat, but are fun to have? a pet mechanical squirrel that follows you around, Like a Mini-pet but without the need to buy one from the gem store? Or maybe If you don’t want Mounts, you can have a One time use only mechanical tiger that you built from materials you mined, give it X HP… can’t be healed, when it dies it dies. Or give it a time limit.

Why can’t crafting have cool things in it?

Sometimes whe there is little difference between what you can craft, and what the game allows you to loot off Mobs,…. there is little need or use for crafting in and of itself. Crafting just becomes " another source of xp"

The sad part is, seeing the potential of crafting, and Not seeing Anet get even close to it. It’s simply another part of the game that could have been awesome, and is Bland and generic.

Nerelith.7360:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

First I tend not to badmouth other games. There are exceptions, but I wasn’t badmouthing anything. I was simply stating a truth that without knowing that game, the statement you made was completely meaningless. Your response changes nothing.

This isn’t my first rodeo. I’ve played a LOT of MMOs. And I mean a lot. Lotro, DDO, WoW, Guild Wars (I know it’s not a true MMO), Perfect World, RoM, TSW, AoC and I’ve tried a bunch of others.

I don’t badmouth them. I simply say this game is better for my play style, which remains true. It is. But you can’t compare economies from different games. Well you can, but you shouldn’t.

If you want to say I find gold to come by hard in this game, by all means say that. But another game’s economy doesn’t really tell us anything. What you’re essentially saying is I once played a game and that game had better quests because of whatever.

No one can argue the point unless you name the game and they’ve played it.

I guess what he is saying is that in many other mmo’s you simply work directly towards your items. There is no gold-sink in that. In fact while working towards that you even earn some money.

Then the gold-grind in the game (his example is a flying license) should not be the biggest problem. Sure it might be costly but you do not start to need grinding gold to be able to buy it. So there is no real gold-grind in the game.

Now in GW2 for many items there is already a gold-grind. You can’t work directly towards most items so you are already in need of gold.. well depending on your play-style. I think somebody who does not care for such things and just runs WvW all day will ave plenty of gold.

Then it does not matter if we are talking about 1000 gold or 10 copper but the need for that 1000 gold or 10 copper and the ’ requirement’ to grind gold to get anything.

In his example he has a craft that he does (earning the mats easy in the game by directly working towards them) he then create things and can even earn money with it. In GW2 for many mats (higher tier mats at least) it’s not possible to work directly towards it. So it’s grinding gold to get them. Then in many cases you also need to put in an item you have to buy from a vendor, so more gold and then you have an item you can’t really earn any gold on. So then you craft for the items you might want but that are basically only the legendary weapons and the ascended gear (at lvl 400 and 500). So up until then it’s a complete gold-grind. Not so much playing the game as in the game of his example.

And in that way you can off course with no problem compare games.

Only if you isolate the economy from the rest of the game. But then you use the word grind. If you need 10 copper you don’t have to grind gold. You have to do like a single dynamic event. You have to play and pretty much do anything. Chopping down a tree or mining a copper node will give you more than 10 copper.

The idea of a gold sink is important in a game where everything can pretty much be bought and sold. But you don’t have to do any of that, if you don’t want to.

You will get enough money to “live” in this game without grinding. That amounts right now to basically teleport fees, since they removed armor repair.

Do you need big bags? Not really. But if you did need very big bags, in theory you’d be playing the game. What do you need bags for if you’re not killing anything. If you’re not in a fractal or dungeon it should be pretty easy to find a heart guy to sell to.

Do you need 18 slot bags? I still have characters that don’t have them.

And karma is a currency too. Most weapons and armors at least while leveling can be bought with karma. Everyone says it’s a useless currency but it’s not if you happen not to have enough gold.

If you WvW a lot, you’ll have badges of honor that do much the same thing.

You can’t remove the economy from the rest of the game and try to analyze it. Or again, you can, but it would be relatively meaningless.

You say you have characters without 18 slot bags therefore I do not need them.

Thank you for deciding for me what my needs are …lol…

Not what I said. Sorry if it wasn’t clear.

I said IF you need 18 slot bags, you’re playing the game. If you’re playing the game enough to need bags that big, you probably should be making enough to afford them. You’re acting like they’re massively expensive, when they’re not. Not in the greater scheme of things certainly.

If the benefit is great enough to you to buy them you will…but you can easily play the game without buying them. The people who need them most are dungeon runners, and fractal runners who should be able to afford them.

That was my point. Trying to misconstrue what I say because you don’t agree with it doesn’t make your arguments stronger.

Nerelith.7360:

This shows you don’t know what you are talking about. Fact is, I mine fine and don’t have any mining pick, so don’t need to pay to maintain what i do not own.

So I checked cause Like I said in a lot of posts I only played WoW at around launch and it seems you’re right, in patch 5.0.4 which was released in 2012 they removed the need to have a pick to mine so yeah they removed that one gold sink 12 years after release. though they seem to give you a bonus so you never know it might be useful.

Nerelith.7360:

98g at level 70? The issue is not the direct or indirect costs it is how easy it is to generate money doing what I feel like doing. As an example, my girlfriend is a skinner, and at level 40, she banked 1,000g purely from selling skins. How much will we have by level 70? Will 98g be in anyway a significant expense? or will we barely notice?

because what in gw2 you dont end up with a profit if you sell the mats you get after paying for your harvesting tools / salvage kit?

Nerelith.7360:

Agreed, but what you fail to even discuss is, you also need that in gw2. And in WoW the Gold is so easy to earn just going about doing what you feel like doing. Not having to go into dungeons and farm them repeatedly. I do quests, I get upgraded armor, I don’t need an AH to buy, and I sell to vendors what i get that way I do not use. And I have 5,000g in the bank by level 40 (playimng a Monk), because I like to use TSM. Again, None of these are relevant costs when the money needed for them is flowing into your pockets from just playing the game ayway you wish to play the game.

Unlike Gw2 where you need to play it as the devs decided to acquire wealth

Ehh no! in Gw2 you learn a profession for free and there is no cost to get to max level. you dont have to pay to get to initiate or apprentice or grandmaster.

As for gold it depends what you want to buy. you got 5k gold by level 40 great. (gess the game has really changed since my time) . well actually your claim is suspicious. I got puzzled by your 5k gold by 40 (dont think I had 10g by 40 myself though its been ages dont remember) so I looked a bit in the forum. A lot of level 90s claim to have between 2k – 15k with a few going in big ranges 400k+ so are you sure you did 5k playing what content you wanted rather then farming stuff for profit? There were even some claiming to not even be able to afford things!

Nerelith.7360:

Just saying that it isn’t about how much it costs. it’s How Much it costs relative to how much cash can be gained by Simply playing the game anyway I wish…. as opposed to having to play specific content to acquire said welth.

My Girlfriend made over 1,000g by level 40 just skinning, and we have yet to see the inside of a dungeon. How does this compare with crafting in gw2? Where I need to buy a 10 g sigil to produce a bag that only sells for 11 to 13g.

its not about the numbers its about value. 10g playing casually in Gw2 I can make that in maybe 15-20hrs and thats for the best bag in the game. And thats not with farming where it would take less then an hour to make 10g.

how long did your GF take to make 1000g? and what can it buy? I looked up Royal Satchel on a random realm which is I guess the best bag in wow and it sells for 2.7k

numbers themselves are meaningless you need to see them in relation to each other.

Nerelith.7360:

calyx.9086:

You don’t really seem to understand the concept of a gold sink do you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_sink

And seriously, oh noes, we have to buy salvage kits! You’re like those people who complain about the piddling 2s to use waypoints.

I’ll ignore the insulting tone.

The fact is, I do understand the concept of Gold Sinks Just fine. My issue is not with the fact that they exist. They also exist in another game I play.

The difference is, needing to buy a 10 g sigil to sell a bag that then sells for 12g, when it costs me over 4g worth of materials that I could have simply sold on the ah… is a Bit stiff of a Gold sink.

it seems heavy handed, if not downright punitive.

In THIS game Crafting serves One purpose, acquiring XP, from crafting… and maybe crafting something of use at level 80.

In another game i could mention crafting provides items I can use, and enjoy using in and of themselves.

Second:

In another game, it is easier to just acquire Gold by playing the game doing anything i wish. I have 5,000 g in the bank at level 40. My Girlfriend has 1,000 g by level 40.

I Like to play Auction House, she just skins and sells for whatever Auctioneer recommends she sell for.

so yes, there are Gold sinks… but when money is easy to earn, no one cares about spending 4000 g for a artisan flying licence.

On the other hand when you only make 13g for a bag, .. 10g for a sigil that is mandatory to craft it…is steep.

How much can be earned by purely..Playing the game… is crucial to determine if a Gold sink is exorbitant.

One small problem, arenanet didnt set the 12g price the bag sells for on the ah, players did. Why is it so low because getting that bag isnt that big of a deal. for a farmer thats less then 1hr of work to get the best bag in the game. In other game you mention I imagine it would take far longer then that to craft that bag hence why people are willing to pay a lot more then its worth in raw materials.

Galen Grey.4709:

Nerelith.7360:

calyx.9086:

You don’t really seem to understand the concept of a gold sink do you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_sink

And seriously, oh noes, we have to buy salvage kits! You’re like those people who complain about the piddling 2s to use waypoints.

I’ll ignore the insulting tone.

The fact is, I do understand the concept of Gold Sinks Just fine. My issue is not with the fact that they exist. They also exist in another game I play.

The difference is, needing to buy a 10 g sigil to sell a bag that then sells for 12g, when it costs me over 4g worth of materials that I could have simply sold on the ah… is a Bit stiff of a Gold sink.

it seems heavy handed, if not downright punitive.

In THIS game Crafting serves One purpose, acquiring XP, from crafting… and maybe crafting something of use at level 80.

In another game i could mention crafting provides items I can use, and enjoy using in and of themselves.

Second:

In another game, it is easier to just acquire Gold by playing the game doing anything i wish. I have 5,000 g in the bank at level 40. My Girlfriend has 1,000 g by level 40.

I Like to play Auction House, she just skins and sells for whatever Auctioneer recommends she sell for.

so yes, there are Gold sinks… but when money is easy to earn, no one cares about spending 4000 g for a artisan flying licence.

On the other hand when you only make 13g for a bag, .. 10g for a sigil that is mandatory to craft it…is steep.

How much can be earned by purely..Playing the game… is crucial to determine if a Gold sink is exorbitant.

One small problem, arenanet didnt set the 12g price the bag sells for on the ah, players did. Why is it so low because getting that bag isnt that big of a deal. for a farmer thats less then 1hr of work to get the best bag in the game. In other game you mention I imagine it would take far longer then that to craft that bag hence why people are willing to pay a lot more then its worth in raw materials.

The issue is not the 12g price onn the AH, the issue is, before it even gets to the AH in Gw2, I needed to buy a sigil that cost 10g.

In other games while the bags sell a LOT more dearly, there is also greater ease in making Gold, somply though Playing the game doing whatever I wish.

Gold..in that game, is something that just happens..as i play the game doing what I wish.

What do I care if buying the best bag costs 500g, if i can make 500g easilly?
What do i care if buying the best bag costs 500g, if I end up with more than that from simply plying the game doing what I wish?

What do I care about the best bag costing 500 g, when i can make money through crafting? If I can put A, B, and C together, and make something that sells to other players because that item has a use, and there is a market for that item? Do I really care that the best bag costs 500g?

I do not Know of any bag that takes Up More than 2 hours of my time to acquire. So Not sure what you are talking about.

phys.7689:

they built the exp curve to have gaps, that they directly reccomend people to craft. In beta when people asked how come they were behind level following personal story and the stuff in zones, they said they expected people to explore, craft, complete maps, etc.

Not only that but they put legendaries behind crafting, which wasnt so bad, and then they put ascended (best in slot). They also put some of the festival items and what not behind crafting as well.
Its clear they expect everyone to craft in order to be the best at the game they can be.
Crafting exp, sounded good on paper, and i enjoyed it the first time, but honestly they should not have tied exp to production of materials.

What they could have done is given quests that can level up your craft and also give exp, that use up materials, IF they needed a material sink. Or they could have made the best exp/growth come from crafting for npcs, that costs no materials, then people would only use their own materials if they also wanted to profit.

That aside, some people dont enjoy crafting/gathering at all, forcing them to do, and have virtually no other option if they want to get good gear was a big mistake imo.

Thats not what it means. Of course there are gaps between the personal story instances and yes obviously they intend people to play other content besides the personal story but they dont intend for people to do absolutely everything. you can get to max level with no crafting just fine and reach max level long before you even hit level 80 zones much less finish all 3.

Ascended gear exclusively through crafting was a bad choice i agree completely. Unfortunately the community didnt really give them a choice. I remember the big backlash there was when they tied ascended gear to dailies (and in my opinion that was brilliant). I tried to argue back then how much grindier it will probably be without a gate like dailies but people refused to consider 1 laurel to be the equivalent of a full day of playing and instead thought 30 laurels mean 30x 30mins it took to finish the daily and if the removed the time gate people could get the items done in a weekend instead of having to wait 20 – 30 days per piece.

phys.7689:

also if you have money beforehand or not, if the materials are worth more than 15% of the cost of the item, you would be wasting your time and money crafting them.

Except, as you say, if your goal is to get crafting exp, which as i said, is a flaw in crafing market (not unique to GW2) imo.

I think the reason so many developers do it, is so that crafters fill the need for players to have items but the pursuit of profit or a love of crafting should be the main reason someone makes an item

sure but there is also the little issue that technically raw material should never be worth more then the item itself and thats something that players caused.

however like you correctly say its basically a certainty that that came to be due to crafting giving out leveling XP.

Why they did it, its hard to say but I imagine because in most games crafting is actually useless. I am a bit of a crafter and i cant count the number of MMOs where I’d spend hours to craft an item that in a very short amount of time will be outclassed by a better drop. I still remember this funny case where in this game I had spend a full day think 8hrs or so gathering the stuff to build this awesome weapon (was still newish lots of people around and you had to compete for nodes + it took a bit to level up the profession) . So I walk out of the city and well you cant wait to see your new weapon in action right, so I aggro the first mob I see, a regular mob and behold it drops a better weapon than I had just crafted. Awhole day’s effort for 1 kill essentially which I could have accomplished with a starter weapon probably but well that makes you question how worthed it is to dive into crafting and I guess a lot of people dont. Especially because a lot of MMOs dont even have crafting worth anything at max level either with Best in slot tied to raids and such and no possiblity to craft the equivalent at all.

Leveling XP was probably intended to entice people who had given up on crafting only to turn out into something Anet probably didnt expect. a primary alt leveling mechanism

Nerelith.7360:

The problem is Crafting is Bland and generic. You make armor? So what,…armor also drops off Mobs. Maybe the skin is different, but it’s the same armot.

You make a sword? or a Bow? Again…so what?

On another game, you can make a mechanical squirrel with engineering. You can make a Motorcycle. You can make a Robot that tanks for you, or an agro magnet that waves it’s hands with a cardboard cut out of a Big breasted woman sporting cleavage with a smile on her face.

The irony for me is…each of these items are items that casual gamers would love to have. Unfortunately Anet places them in the gem shop.

Why Not have crafting create cool items that have zero benefit to combat, but are fun to have? a pet mechanical squirrel that follows you around, Like a Mini-pet but without the need to buy one from the gem store? Or maybe If you don’t want Mounts, you can have a One time use only mechanical tiger that you built from materials you mined, give it X HP… can’t be healed, when it dies it dies. Or give it a time limit.

Why can’t crafting have cool things in it?

Sometimes whe there is little difference between what you can craft, and what the game allows you to loot off Mobs,…. there is little need or use for crafting in and of itself. Crafting just becomes " another source of xp"

The sad part is, seeing the potential of crafting, and Not seeing Anet get even close to it. It’s simply another part of the game that could have been awesome, and is Bland and generic.

Like I already told you, I agree 100% with you here.

Nerelith.7360:

The issue is not the 12g price onn the AH, the issue is, before it even gets to the AH in Gw2, I needed to buy a sigil that cost 10g.

In other games while the bags sell a LOT more dearly, there is also greater ease in making Gold, somply though Playing the game doing whatever I wish.

Gold..in that game, is something that just happens..as i play the game doing what I wish.

What do I care if buying the best bag costs 500g, if i can make 500g easilly?
What do i care if buying the best bag costs 500g, if I end up with more than that from simply plying the game doing what I wish?

What do I care about the best bag costing 500 g, when i can make money through crafting? If I can put A, B, and C together, and make something that sells to other players because that item has a use, and there is a market for that item? Do I really care that the best bag costs 500g?

I do not Know of any bag that takes Up More than 2 hours of my time to acquire. So Not sure what you are talking about.

Only the problem is precisely the 12g people sell the thing for.

In both games we’re talking about there is a bag progression. The progression is gate in several ways. Skill level, materials, costs. Gw2 took the easy way and just set the rune for sale which in terms of accessibility is great. I can play 15-20hrs of whatever I enjoy and at the end of that I can get my bag. Awesome. The other game does it differently. It gates the best bag behind raw material. That means you need to go gather that raw material. Now I never got to that point and I dont know what it entails but I am sure it probably involves difficulty where as not everyone might manage to gather said material, accessibility potentially you need to unlock something and gathering that material might take time. You said it yourself, bags in this other game sell for multiple times the cost it takes to make them, that means the effort require has to be such people are willing to pay many times the effort required to make them and that doesnt happen if its a minuscule effort of 2hrs casual play. In Gw2 it sells for 12g because people feel the effort required doesnt exceed that or more likely that storage isnt that much of issue to justify the cost. I for example dont use 20 slot bags because to me 8 extra slots arent worth 32g but like vayne said I am not a farmer and as a casual the storage 18 slot bags give me is more then enough for my needs. If I were a farmer the time require to sell stuff or offload my inventory might more then justify 32g after all thats like 3 hrs of farming. You dont always have to go with the best!

Nerelith.7360:

I do not Know of any bag that takes Up More than 2 hours of my time to acquire. So Not sure what you are talking about.

you just stated you were level 40 in that other game you’re comparing with. Thats not even 1/2 there to level cap. The equivalent to that would be 10 slot bag not the 20 slot bag which requires a rune that costs 5s not 10g which you can earn doing like 2 dynamic events of that level and that take far less then 2 hrs to complete. Dont compare max level with mid level compare the same lvl of bags on both games.

Danikat.8537:

Regarding point 3 (gold sellers). If you read the EULA it already is against the rules and Anet can and do ban people for selling gold (as well as associated activities like botting and stealing accounts to get that gold).

If you know of a game that has a 100% success rate at preventing gold sellers please do say what it is. I’m sure Anet (and most other MMO companies) would love to find out how they do it.

Cryptic Studios will flat out ban you for even mentioning the name of a gold seller in any one of their games, whether you are the one selling the gold, or talking about the gold seller.

Greymelken.1892:

Danikat.8537:

Regarding point 3 (gold sellers). If you read the EULA it already is against the rules and Anet can and do ban people for selling gold (as well as associated activities like botting and stealing accounts to get that gold).

If you know of a game that has a 100% success rate at preventing gold sellers please do say what it is. I’m sure Anet (and most other MMO companies) would love to find out how they do it.

Cryptic Studios will flat out ban you for even mentioning the name of a gold seller in any one of their games, whether you are the one selling the gold, or talking about the gold seller.

But like A.Net, they do not have 100% success with gold sellers. No one does.

That is because it only takes one player buying gold from them to make it worth their while.

Nerelith.7360:

The problem is… My complaints about Gw2 are froma crafter’s perspective, Not talking about Armor… talking about going somewhere. And farming the materials i need. So I can then craft what I wish to craft, and sell or use.

In Gw2 MY experience has been that if you need something Like ancient Bone… i takes an incredibly long period of time to farm… MY experience is, that after a certain amount of time, the Bone just stops dropping.

I dunno about that, I spent time doing WvW Season 2 and got most of what I needed to craft through the 300-425 for Weaponsmithing. (Why 425? I haven’t gotten to the next ‘tier’ yet due to not wanting to spend the time pounding it out repetetively.)

In another game I play, I take My warlock to A specific place, farm up frostweave. And I can do so quickly… craft a 20 slot bag, and either send it to My alts… or sell on the AH. There are only 2 items i need, to craft it… thread i can buy cheaply off a vendor… not a 10 g sigil for a bag that then sells On the TP for 12g. ( sweat shop rates)…. and something i already have because I disenchant all greens I come across.

. . . this isn’t that other game, though. Weirdly, it was stated by developers they didn’t want crafting too profitable, or profitable at all. (Can’t recall which of the two off hand, but I know it was pretty much to try to keep the economy more in check.)

Again, the only game I can go to is Everquest, where you could craft bags . . . but the best ones were purchased for a ludicrous amount or dropped by specific raid-level mobs. (10 slot, 100% weight reduction, carries any item to be precise.) Crafting made 10-slot bags, but not to the same utility.

As Devata said. I can go and directly farm the materials I want, and the side benefit is Gold. That I can then use on the gold sinks, such that I never notice the gold sinks.

I never notice the (natural) gold sinks in GW2, save for cultural gear.

Not go out and GRIND gold to then go on the TP to BUY the materials I need… cause then I need to grind for gold.. and makes it feel less Like a game, and More Like a Job simulator where I play a Poorly paid independant contractor of Anet.

But you’re not contracted by ANet in that case, you’re contracted by the cartel of players who willingly charge high high prices for the components because they can. Which, mind you, is not unlike other games where they know you need it and they don’t want it.

PS I do miss silk farming in the East karanas.

Crag spider tracking forever.

PPS: There is a difference between grinding for gold, and farming for mats. I find the former unappealing since it turns the game into another job. But The latter quite entertaining.

Somewhat agreed. But GW1 already set up how ArenaNet handles materials and crafting stuff out of them – loads of common materials to the point of drowning in them sometimes, while the bottleneck is the rarer materials.

GW2 is an incredible piece of art.

As a game I found it to be a total failure.

ipan.4356:

GW2 is an incredible piece of art.

As a game I found it to be a total failure.

I’ve found it both a qualified failure and qualified success.

It’s really good at a few things, and can’t really scratch some itches I have with games in general.

Luckily, there’s always Terraria, Minecraft, and Steam Summer Sales.

Nerelith.7360:

The sad part is, seeing the potential of crafting, and Not seeing ANet get even close to it. It’s simply another part of the game that could have been awesome, and is Bland and generic.

Sad, but true. The discovery system is nothing more than a little pattern detection puzzle, and it’s only marginally fun on Cooking. Marginally. Having the “what can I make now?” question and ending up with 15 varieties of zucchini WTFness at least gave me a laugh.

Beyond that, it’s a standard MMO crafting system with little customizability. The parts that are customizable end up gated by rare materials that come from special events or by breaking materials already of that type, looking at you Dire and Sentinel.

This makes crafting nonsensical. Some components you need to get by bizarrely WTF means or pay out several gold from the trading post. And even if you do have the components, and you’ve proven via discovery you’re capable of simple pattern detection… NOPE, still can’t make it, because that version requires a recipe, even though every other one of its grade and type do not. Celestial, guilty as charged.

FF14 and WildStar have much more robust crafting systems.

And to echo Nerelith’s other note, what do you do with items you can make, besides fulfill ANet’s desire to have a goldsink in the Trading Post?

Again, FF14 and WildStar have been much more forward-thinking about craft and trade. You can turn materials and products in to specific game vendors and quest givers, in exchange for special currencies.

Something like that could have corrected the trade market without the excessive Ascended crafting (yes, I mean silk) and given crafters something to do after they’ve made their best-in-slot gear.

Those same crafters can make other fun toys as well, or, y’know, housing decor. Even WoW has craft-only mounts and pets and toys and parachutes. …What? I like my glider-cape.

Point is, the crafting process is flat. The crafting results are flat. While they could have made great strides toward a high quality (FF14 pun, kitten ) system, instead, we got a typically-generic MMO crafting system with a bit of an XP bonus on the end of it.

Rauderi.8706:

Nerelith.7360:

The sad part is, seeing the potential of crafting, and Not seeing ANet get even close to it. It’s simply another part of the game that could have been awesome, and is Bland and generic.

Sad, but true. The discovery system is nothing more than a little pattern detection puzzle, and it’s only marginally fun on Cooking. Marginally. Having the “what can I make now?” question and ending up with 15 varieties of zucchini WTFness at least gave me a laugh.

Beyond that, it’s a standard MMO crafting system with little customizability. The parts that are customizable end up gated by rare materials that come from special events or by breaking materials already of that type, looking at you Dire and Sentinel.

This makes crafting nonsensical. Some components you need to get by bizarrely WTF means or pay out several gold from the trading post. And even if you do have the components, and you’ve proven via discovery you’re capable of simple pattern detection… NOPE, still can’t make it, because that version requires a recipe, even though every other one of its grade and type do not. Celestial, guilty as charged.

FF14 and WildStar have much more robust crafting systems.

And to echo Nerelith’s other note, what do you do with items you can make, besides fulfill ANet’s desire to have a goldsink in the Trading Post?

Again, FF14 and WildStar have been much more forward-thinking about craft and trade. You can turn materials and products in to specific game vendors and quest givers, in exchange for special currencies.

Something like that could have corrected the trade market without the excessive Ascended crafting (yes, I mean silk) and given crafters something to do after they’ve made their best-in-slot gear.

Those same crafters can make other fun toys as well, or, y’know, housing decor. Even WoW has craft-only mounts and pets and toys and parachutes. …What? I like my glider-cape.

Point is, the crafting process is flat. The crafting results are flat. While they could have made great strides toward a high quality (FF14 pun, kitten ) system, instead, we got a typically-generic MMO crafting system with a bit of an XP bonus on the end of it.

well to be honest, they had said early on that their crafting was going to be fairly run of the mill. The part i dont really get, is they make it fairly run of the mill, and then make it required for best in slot.

I honestly really enjoy crafting in general, but the way crafting in this game is very odd, its pretty average, and yet you need it for endgame.

and yeah crafting in wildstar is pretty fun (though it has some issues as to its purpose endgame wise) and in ffxiv its pretty involved, and also useful, though i dont know how they handle endgame aspects in a realm reborn

Nerelith.7360:

Galen Grey.4709:

phys.7689:

Galen Grey.4709:

1. It is always tricky to say what is OP and what is not but one thing I think happens is there is this prevailant believe that GW2 is all about DPS and nothing else. If you try to out DPS a warrior with a necro you’re most certainly going to fail and the warrior will feel OP. Thing is all classes can do a lot but they all have their own strength and weaknesses. If i am facing a warrior with my necro I will try to disrupt him as much as possible while putting in conditions on him for example.

2. no expansion doesnt mean no new classes or no new weapons. They can do that as well and they said it already that expansion or not there will be new weapons and new classes with an emphasis that new weapons would probably come first.

3. gold trading outside of what anet provides is already against the terms and if caught you’ll get banned.

4. mirrors what i said about 1. its not just about DPS, though people seem to ignore there is also the control and support aspect of a class as well. An elementalist and a mesmer can boost the whole party damage by 80% while also disrupting the enemy and removing conditions from allies as well as DPS a bit. that means you get more overall damage then having 5 straight up warriors while also mitigating a good amount of damage recieved by the party. It has its advantages.

5. I wouldnt say crafting is useless. Its a good way to gear up cheaply. A good way to trying to acquire a precursor or one of the rare named weapons. Its a good way to get consumables.

actually its not a good way to gear up, in general most crafting recipes are done at a loss, meaning the materials are worth more. Not really good for consumables except cooking, but a great many cooking recipes are not worth thier price in materials well. Honestly, ill say they did not put crafting in the world well, they built the game in a way so that everyone should craft, i dont think that is a good paradigm.

well thats provided you have the money before hand though. If you just reached 80 its unlikely you’re going to have enough money to buy a full set but if you decided to craft it it will not matter. Granted you could always gather then material sell them and buy the stuff anyway, its an option sure but then you’ll also sacrifcing leveling your crafting and there are a few things that are cheaper to get / maintain with crafting then buying directly.

Did they? how is the game build in a way that everyone should craft? like you just said crafting is entirely optional and if anything not really the best option either in most cases. Think the issue is most likely that crafting gives leveling XP and thus a lot of people use it as a way to level their character up which in turn saturate the market with items that are sold simply to get some of the leveling investment back rather then to make a profit thus having people open to undercutting each other more then they should.

The problem is Crafting is Bland and generic. You make armor? So what,…armor also drops off Mobs. Maybe the skin is different, but it’s the same armot.

You make a sword? or a Bow? Again…so what?

On another game, you can make a mechanical squirrel with engineering. You can make a Motorcycle. You can make a Robot that tanks for you, or an agro magnet that waves it’s hands with a cardboard cut out of a Big breasted woman sporting cleavage with a smile on her face.

The irony for me is…each of these items are items that casual gamers would love to have. Unfortunately Anet places them in the gem shop.

Why Not have crafting create cool items that have zero benefit to combat, but are fun to have? a pet mechanical squirrel that follows you around, Like a Mini-pet but without the need to buy one from the gem store? Or maybe If you don’t want Mounts, you can have a One time use only mechanical tiger that you built from materials you mined, give it X HP… can’t be healed, when it dies it dies. Or give it a time limit.

Why can’t crafting have cool things in it?

Sometimes whe there is little difference between what you can craft, and what the game allows you to loot off Mobs,…. there is little need or use for crafting in and of itself. Crafting just becomes " another source of xp"

The sad part is, seeing the potential of crafting, and Not seeing Anet get even close to it. It’s simply another part of the game that could have been awesome, and is Bland and generic.

100% agree with this.

Oow and sorry for naming you a ‘He’.

Silly you, trying to give intelligent feedback on these forums.

phys.7689:

well to be honest, they had said early on that their crafting was going to be fairly run of the mill. The part i dont really get, is they make it fairly run of the mill, and then make it required for best in slot.

Ascended pretty much served as the replacement for robust horizontal progression. As a result, it got tied to multiple game-play styles: FotM, dailies, crafting, Guild Missions, WvW and drops. I tend to think of the whole thing by paraphrasing the title of Sarah McLachlan’s third album, and call it Fumbling towards Apathy.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Fumbling towards Apathy.

That describes my whole play style! I’m going to have a listen of this.

I forgot where it was mentioned but Anet did say that there is a full expansion staff that is separate from the living story one — so we will be seeing an expansion eventually. The game has been out for what, a year and a half?

WoW take a good almost 2 years on each of their expansions but man, waiting for new content every 3 or whatever-so months was a pain. And there was no incentive to stay in the game except for the fact that “I better get my gear for the next patch”.

ANet hasn’t said one way or another if there’s an expansion coming other than repeating “not soon”.

Galen Grey.4709:

you just stated you were level 40 in that other game you’re comparing with. Thats not even 1/2 there to level cap. The equivalent to that would be 10 slot bag not the 20 slot bag which requires a rune that costs 5s not 10g which you can earn doing like 2 dynamic events of that level and that take far less then 2 hrs to complete. Dont compare max level with mid level compare the same lvl of bags on both games.

Ok.. here’s the thing. I have a max level tailor that makes My bags for me, No it’s NOT My level 40 Monk. I see where the confusion set in. I make bags with my main who is also a level 85 warlock with maximum tailoring.

I no longer play this character since I am devoted to time with My wife. And she is only level 40. I use her only for farming cloth for bags for me, and my alts.

I can see where the confusion Kicked in.

The issue with the other game is, that 20 slot bags is tied behind level requirement and skill requirement in tailoring. The clothes drop readilly enough… No need to gather for more than a couple Hours for 1 or 2 bags. Getting to the place, by taking commercial flight takes maybe 20 minutes from a major city. Once there, Mobs for a level 85 drop very quickly and easilly.

here is how i feel about it, Tailoring was something that I levelled slowly, as time passed. I got My hands On cloths that i then used to make armor, at first I sold it back to merchants, after they started giving stat boosts, i saccrificed them for the disenchants …

At no time did I feel i was investing 90 % of My cash to creat or craft an item.

In gw2, before I even get to make the bag,. I need a 10 g sigil. In that other game, the 20 slotters sell for a couple hundred gold. And the cost in negligeable.

in BOTH games you need to use cloths that drop or buy cloths.

In that other game cloths drop often, and special cloths I can farm, since I Know where they drop. In Gw2, I tend to end up… buying them off the TP. that is assuming that I do not have any saved up… and to save them up, I need a salvage kit to extract the cloth.

In that other game, I can have zero cloths, and end up with a 20 slot bag that sells for over 150 to 180 g. In 2 hours…. In gw2…I can’t.

I either need to buy the cloth, or farm the cloth, which means use up multiple Salvage kits..(more money in expenses), then I have to buy the sigil… and then once the bag is made… it sells. at a Loss. because of the sigil I am forced to buy.

In that other game, i MAKE money, and quickly. here if i decide to be a crafter, i LOSE Money, Not sure How else to explain it, so i will leave you with this, and hope you can understand.