Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

I’m an old time RPGer and I love this game, because I can just wander around and find stuff. I’m not overly worried about going to where an arrow points me. I love the little hidden stuff, like the hidden event in AC for example. It’s not marked on any map, you just have to find it. Entrances to some of the mini dungeons are that way too.

Are you telling me that you play this game without any goal? Just mindlessly walking around? And you didn’t get bored with a game that’s nearly a year old?

I think… And I might be right… That your like a gem in the entire gw2 community! With people like you, developers doesn’t even have to spend their time on designing game play! Because you will be playing their game for eternity no matter what.
Unfortunately you are just one gem… For the rest of us this game doesn’t have anything that would keep us playing right now.

Some silly mini games? Or an instance once a week or even less frequently that we are done with after an hour or two? The other stuff is just boring grind without any challenge. Or did I forget about something?

And think about it… Does adding some more demanding stuff would disrupt your mindless tours? You don’t have any goal and you are going to have fun with anything. So why do you care so much?

Keep in mind that we don’t want any gear grinding or AN to forget about their manifesto. I would rather be glad to finally see them keep some of their promises (I have to remind that now at every post)

@Insignya.
People have been explaining things to you nicely (at least sometimes)- you are unable to see anybody’s view but your own and you keep insisting that you are right.

Please understand that everyone does not play like you do and that what you see as flaws we see as strengths of the game.

I have been playing since the betas- my first 80 since Sept and have never grinded, farmed or run out of things to do.
GW2 is perfect for my playstyle

You seem consistently either unable or unwilling to except that what you don’t like are design decisions by Anet- it is not something they will correct because it is not broken and it is how they want to make their game.

You like it or you don’t.
You play GW2 or you find another game.

If you are actually trying to have a discussion I suggest you stop with the name calling.

Morrigan.2809:

Please understand that everyone does not play like you do and that what you see as flaws we see as strengths of the game.

Like what?

Insignya.8625:

This is basically the most pointless forum I’ve seen in my life. There’s not a single dev response in the Suggestions section, General Discussion is just for reds to troll and everything else is similarly empty. What’s it about?

I started this thread to help the developers see what they should improve. Now it’s once again pointless quoting and argues. I’m not gonna be a part of these things anymore, I’m tired of it. The purpose of forums is to get feedback from the community. If you want to kick out the people who loved your game, Arena.NET, fine by me. Do hire more forum warriors next time so I can be sure from the start you don’t care at all about what people say.

See you in Wildstar.

Yes, the purpose of this forum is to give feedback to devs. That doesn’t mean that people who have contrary feedback shouldn’t be allowed to voice their opinions either.

You’ve voiced your opinion, I’ve voiced mine. Why does that undermine what you’ve said.

The devs are smart guys who can look at both sides of an issue and weigh what is being said and what they want to do with it. In the mean time, they have to hear BOTH sides to weigh it.

There’s plenty of constructive criticism on these forums. There are also people who think some suggested changes are simply taking the game in the wrong direct.

You’re right. These forums are for players to have a voice…but that should include players on BOTH sides of the divide.

HiddenNick.7206:

Morrigan.2809:

Please understand that everyone does not play like you do and that what you see as flaws we see as strengths of the game.

Like what?

Open World, down leveling, the whole game is endgame
no on rails endgame where you have to do x so you can do y so you can do…
Skills tied to weapons, combat in general.
Cosmetic progression
no mandatory grind
Living Story
The ability to create your own goals
Pick up and play with out falling behind.

This is just off the top of my head and I could go on but I’m not going to reread the entire thread.

Morrigan.2809:

Open World, down leveling, the whole game is endgame
no on rails endgame where you have to do x so you can do y so you can do…
Skills tied to weapons, combat in general.
Cosmetic progression
no mandatory grind
Living Story
The ability to create your own goals
Pick up and play with out falling behind.

This is just off the top of my head and I could go on but I’m not going to reread the entire thread.

As I have thought… You just don’t get what Insignya is asking for.

HiddenNick.7206:

Morrigan.2809:

Open World, down leveling, the whole game is endgame
no on rails endgame where you have to do x so you can do y so you can do…
Skills tied to weapons, combat in general.
Cosmetic progression
no mandatory grind
Living Story
The ability to create your own goals
Pick up and play with out falling behind.

This is just off the top of my head and I could go on but I’m not going to reread the entire thread.

As I have thought… You just don’t get what Insignya is asking for.

oh I get what Insignya is asking for.
I also recall you making a thread “What is this game about?”

People have been telling you both the same thing but it is not what you want to hear.

Insignya.8625:

You don’t look like a gamer in your interviews, you look like someone who has zero interest in making a worthwhile product.

Congratulations Insignya, I honestly didn’t think your posts could get any more ridiculous, but you’ve really topped yourself with this gem of stupidity. What exactly does a ‘gamer’ look like? Do tell us, I’m sure we’re all dying to know.

@Insignya

I do find it interesting that when you talk about how much replayability you believe Skyrim has, you do also mention that you modded it about 50 times. If you couldn’t mod it, that is, if you played it the way it was originally intended, would you still find it so fun? If the only way it was still fun was with mods, then I would venture that the argument falls a little flat.

I’m not saying you’re wrong about wanting more from GW2. And I don’t think even the staunchest defender of the game would argue there’s literally nothing to be improved upon. But I do argue against people who have got frustrated and bored to the point where they stop seeing rationally and jump on this sort of “hate bandwagon”.

As others have said, GW2 is trying to do something different. It doesn’t always get it right, and it will always be a long, uphill struggle to break with conventions (such as the trinity) that have been ground into our expectations of the MMO genre for several years. And maybe they haven’t got it right just yet – certainly they haven’t. But similarly, we can’t all expect to like it. Just because people don’t like something doesn’t mean it hasn’t done what it set out to do. It DID break with several traditional MMO conventions. Some like it, some don’t. It’s taken a huge step towards RPGs (and yes, I agree with Vayne that not everybody plays RPGs for the reward aspect) and again, some like it, some don’t. Those that don’t only make the mistake, imo, of equating not liking the game to the game failing in its objective.

ANet didn’t say they were making what would be the most popular MMO ever. They said ground-breaking – and it has broken several grounds.

Just my 2 cents.

EDIT: I also still think that people keep treating this like a sub based MMO, not a B2P MMO, which is a mistake and will only ever end badly. I’m not saying this to invalidate any arguments about endgame etc (that is, in fact, a slightly separate issue). More to the point that you have paid all that you ever NEED to pay for this game, and definitely got that money back in terms of gameplay. There’s nothing saying you are required to play this and only this game for the next year again. You are completely free to feel bored/need a break and to take a break and pick it up again when you DO feel like you want to roam Tyria again. That’s how I keep it fun – running the same zones over and over for a year IS boring. I agree there. But I disagree with the argument that ANet NEEDS more. Depends where their aim is. They WILL make a good amount of money from the cash shop (they are always going to because people will always spend in these), and they have your box purchase fee. They SHOULD create more because this WILL increase the longevity of their game and it will keep their current playerbase numbers up, but they don’t NEED it, and the game won’t die if they didn’t change that particular aspect much if they boost other kinds of content. It seems like a poor excuse for lazy developing, but actually, it’s not if you take this kind of perspective on it. It’s B2P. Not sub based. There are fundamental differences with the way a developer NEEDS (note again, not always equating to should) to act between the two.

Morrigan.2809:

HiddenNick.7206:

Morrigan.2809:

Open World, down leveling, the whole game is endgame
no on rails endgame where you have to do x so you can do y so you can do…
Skills tied to weapons, combat in general.
Cosmetic progression
no mandatory grind
Living Story
The ability to create your own goals
Pick up and play with out falling behind.

This is just off the top of my head and I could go on but I’m not going to reread the entire thread.

As I have thought… You just don’t get what Insignya is asking for.

oh I get what Insignya is asking for.
I also recall you making a thread “What is this game about?”

People have been telling you both the same thing but it is not what you want to hear.

So I’ll just try to explain how much your wrong:

“Open World” – I do want open world as Insignya or any of us.
“Down leveling” – I do like it.
“The whole game is endgame” – that’s just BS. In any other MMO you can explore as much as you like but it’s not an end game. And I also do like those hidden JP’s. I just really don’t know what for is that chest at the end. And events? I think they are great. So I don’t want any of that to vanish.
“No on rails endgame where you have to do x so you can do y so you can do…” – example. Because I don’t get what you mean. You seam to be describing something like personal story but that’s already in the game. But I may be wrong.
“Skills tied to weapons, combat in general.” – I do like it.
“Cosmetic progression.” – I just don’t care about what kind of progression is there. But I assure you that if the cosmetic progression is everything that’s there then I’ll be happy about it. But are you not forgetting about something… Like WvW ranks?
“No mandatory grind” – I don’t like grinding
“Living Story” – about that… I’m just not so certain that it’s just so kitten good as you pretend it is.
“The ability to create your own goals” – goals you mean are like: grind this or that. You can have that as much as you want. I don;t care. LOL.
“Pick up and play with out falling behind” – I assure you that we are agreeing with that also. (Or maybe your saying that being on lower level fractals is falling behind?)

So where do we disagree actually?

But if you think that adding an RNG box with a slight chance of getting new skin is perfectly fine then we have to disagree on that.

I would rather like to find locked in some deep and hard to get to dungeon or some epic and huge dynamic event that’s so hard to beat that doing so actually means something.

HiddenNick.7206:

Morrigan.2809:

HiddenNick.7206:

Morrigan.2809:

Open World, down leveling, the whole game is endgame
no on rails endgame where you have to do x so you can do y so you can do…
Skills tied to weapons, combat in general.
Cosmetic progression
no mandatory grind
Living Story
The ability to create your own goals
Pick up and play with out falling behind.

This is just off the top of my head and I could go on but I’m not going to reread the entire thread.

As I have thought… You just don’t get what Insignya is asking for.

oh I get what Insignya is asking for.
I also recall you making a thread “What is this game about?”

People have been telling you both the same thing but it is not what you want to hear.

So I’ll just try to explain how much your wrong:

“Open World” – I do want open world as Insignya or any of us.
“Down leveling” – I do like it.
“The whole game is endgame” – that’s just BS. In any other MMO you can explore as much as you like but it’s not an end game. And I also do like those hidden JP’s. I just really don’t know what for is that chest at the end. And events? I think they are great. So I don’t want any of that to vanish.
“No on rails endgame where you have to do x so you can do y so you can do…” – example. Because I don’t get what you mean. You seam to be describing something like personal story but that’s already in the game. But I may be wrong.
“Skills tied to weapons, combat in general.” – I do like it.
“Cosmetic progression.” – I just don’t care about what kind of progression is there. But I assure you that if the cosmetic progression is everything that’s there then I’ll be happy about it. But are you not forgetting about something… Like WvW ranks?
“No mandatory grind” – I don’t like grinding
“Living Story” – about that… I’m just not so certain that it’s just so kitten good as you pretend it is.
“The ability to create your own goals” – goals you mean are like: grind this or that. You can have that as much as you want. I don;t care. LOL.
“Pick up and play with out falling behind” – I assure you that we are agreeing with that also. (Or maybe your saying that being on lower level fractals is falling behind?)

So where do we disagree actually?

But if you think that adding an RNG box with a slight chance of getting new skin is perfectly fine then we have to disagree on that.

I would rather like to find locked in some deep and hard to get to dungeon or some epic and huge dynamic event that’s so hard to beat that doing so actually means something.

OK one last time.
The whole game is endgame is not BS it is the literal truth.- endgame is what you do once you hit level cap- you play the whole game.

“on rails endgame” means simply what you do in every other MMO-
let me give you an example:
do you have this piece of gear yet? no? ok lets do this dungeon/quest line so you can get it
Why? So you can do this next Dungeon/raid/quest.
Why? So you can get that other piece of gear.

I can’t comment on WvW ranks since i do not play WvW

I never said LS was great, I said I understand what they are trying to do with it and I am enjoying it
Goals: here you go with the grind, this grind that again- what is it with that?
I have never grinded- I don’t grind and I despise grinding since I am not a hamster.

Lol indeed if you think goals have to be pointed out to you by game design or they either don’t exist or are grind.

Falling behind as in needing to regear my characters so I can pick up where I left off.
iN other words “preparing to have fun”

You see I already have fun everytime I log on- it is why I play.

If you are really interested to know what I think, check my posting history.

Edit: as for RnG- I have spoken out against it more times that I can count

Insignya.8625:

See you in Wildstar.

No.

Morrigan.2809:

“on rails endgame” means simply what you do in every other MMO-
let me give you an example:
do you have this piece of gear yet? no? ok lets do this dungeon/quest line so you can get it
Why? So you can do this next Dungeon/raid/quest.
Why? So you can get that other piece of gear.

Lol indeed if you think goals have to be pointed out to you by game design or they either don’t exist or are grind.

Falling behind as in needing to regear my characters so I can pick up where I left off.
iN other words “preparing to have fun”

The problem is that you see in my every post something that’s not there: that I want gear grind. I don’t want it!!! I just don’t care so much about it. It wouldn’t destroy or improve my experience whatsoever.

What I want is that rewards have meaning. And that’s only that.

And one question: when did you started having fun? At level 80 or before? And if you were having fun all the time then why do you care so much about not leveling?

Morrigan.2809:

I never said LS was great, I said I understand what they are trying to do with it and I am enjoying it
Goals: here you go with the grind, this grind that again- what is it with that?
I have never grinded- I don’t grind and I despise grinding since I am not a hamster.

So what do you do? What are YOUR goals in the game after months of playing?

Morrigan.2809:

I have never grinded- I don’t grind and I despise grinding since I am not a hamster.

What!

Go for the eyes Boo, GO FOR THE EYES!! RrraaaAAGHGHH!!!

AntiGw.9367:

Morrigan.2809:

I have never grinded- I don’t grind and I despise grinding since I am not a hamster.

What!

Go for the eyes Boo, GO FOR THE EYES!! RrraaaAAGHGHH!!!

hahaha! my pet raven is actually called Boo

HiddenNick.7206:

Morrigan.2809:

“on rails endgame” means simply what you do in every other MMO-
let me give you an example:
do you have this piece of gear yet? no? ok lets do this dungeon/quest line so you can get it
Why? So you can do this next Dungeon/raid/quest.
Why? So you can get that other piece of gear.

Lol indeed if you think goals have to be pointed out to you by game design or they either don’t exist or are grind.

Falling behind as in needing to regear my characters so I can pick up where I left off.
iN other words “preparing to have fun”

The problem is that you see in my every post something that’s not there: that I want gear grind. I don’t want it!!! I just don’t care so much about it. It wouldn’t destroy or improve my experience whatsoever.

What I want is that rewards have meaning. And that’s only that.

And one question: when did you started having fun? At level 80 or before? And if you were having fun all the time then why do you care so much about not leveling?

Morrigan.2809:

I never said LS was great, I said I understand what they are trying to do with it and I am enjoying it
Goals: here you go with the grind, this grind that again- what is it with that?
I have never grinded- I don’t grind and I despise grinding since I am not a hamster.

So what do you do? What are YOUR goals in the game after months of playing?

What do you mean that you want rewards to have meaning? What would be a meaningful reward to you?

I started having fun in the first BWE I played and I haven’t stopped.
I enjoy all the things I did back then and since then I have found new things that are also fun for me.

I don not care about leveling at all in terms of levels- they can do away with them totally as far as I’m concerned.

As for leveling itself I’ve found it a great experience on all my characters.

Now I spend a lot of time all over the maps, since I have 3 lvl80’s- I can pretty much play where I please and I do.

My goals?
I have short term, med and long term goals.
My short term goal is to have fun while I play so I structure my other goals around that.
My medium goal is to get all my alts geared in ways that I like and suit my playstyle and concept of my characters.
I would also like to make time for WvW

Long Term?
I am sort of tentatively thinking of getting Kudzu for my Ranger.
Other than that my long term goal is simply to have fun like I have from the start.

Meaning I log on, pick what character I’m in the mood for and head to a place I like and just run some DE’s hang out, talk to some folks etc.
The other night we decided to do a Balthazar run and it was awesome- we then headed off to the Eye… it was a fun night.

What I would love to see are really big DE’s that all interconnected.

I would spend a lot of time with player housing and RP for sure

Morrigan.2809:

What do you mean that you want rewards to have meaning? What would be a meaningful reward to you?

It’s not about the kind of reward. But the way you acquire them.

And this sums it up pretty well (check BOLD and read with understanding):

Insignya.8625:

Reward is crucial
This is not equivalent to stat upgrades. Why do people seem to think so? Every successful title rewards players in some way – be it a meaningful story ending, a powerful item, a new armor set and so on. What’s Guild Wars 2’s alternative? One person slaves for weeks grinding gold for whatever goal he has in his mind. The other tosses 4 rares in a gambling pit and gets an item worth 500 gold. This is simply offensive. So I’m rewarded for not playing the game but playing with my luck? That’s absurd, it’s pointless! Who, other than the person who drew the winning number, enjoys it?
The best rewards should be the hardest to earn
Grinding for the most awesome looking skins is lazy development. Period. Something like the Scavenged Hunt may do little to increase player count, but it will do all the good in the world for veterans and that will pay off in the future. Raids might be met with the typical “oh WoW clone” statement but they will return players in the game. These mechanics already exist in other games, only they are associated with gear grinding. I applaud your effort to make an MMO without vertical progression. But you can’t make a lasting MMO without rewards, it simply doesn’t work and hasn’t worked for any developer.

Morrigan.2809:

My short term goal is to have fun while I play so I structure my other goals around that.

Sounds like PR BS…

My medium goal is to get all my alts geared in ways that I like and suit my playstyle and concept of my characters.

So you do like gear grinding… You just don’t like to gear up one character more then once. And rather gear more then one char… Pretty bad argument here.

Long Term?
I am sort of tentatively thinking of getting Kudzu for my Ranger.

Grind…

Other than that my long term goal is simply to have fun like I have from the start.

Meaning I log on, pick what character I’m in the mood for and head to a place I like and just run some DE’s hang out, talk to some folks etc.

Again PR BS…

@ HiddenNIck:
I agree with what you say about rewards mostly and i would love do do and epic story line that ends in an epic reward.

Sorry that the way I have fun sounds like PR BS to you- but you asked.
I can’t explain it to you since you can’t seem to understand that I was speaking the exact truth.

Getting my alts geared might not mean the same to me as to you.
When I say geared I mean in an exotic set whose stats suit how I like to play- with the skins that suit how I see my character.

Each of my characters I made as a specific personality why would I want to do it more than once on one character?

How is this grind in any way?
I see it as a journey of that character and her adventures in the world.

So I’m tentatively thinking of Kudzu because the skin would compliment my ranger perfectly- however i am not sold because I do not grind. So very long term I plan on keeping it in the back of my mind and see how many things I just accumulate.
If I get a precursor, I might go for it.

As for your PR BS again- Sorry my play style upsets you but it is the truth of how I play.

Insignya.8625:

I don’t give two dimes about stats – I did Fractals because they were challenging content with an obvious goal – gather enough AR to reach the last one.

I’m only going to quote this, because it seems rather contradictory (unless you were thinking in terms of the regular Power, Precision ect stats, then I apologise).

On the one hand you said you don’t care about stats, and yet in the same sentence you said you enjoyed Fractals because it was challenging and had a goal, which was to gather enough Agony Resistance – which is by all definition a stat.

On praising and whining

I wholeheartedly agree with the ‘whining doesn’t help’, but I don’t fully agree on the ‘praising doesn’t help’.

You can praise a piece of content, and do it constructively by highlighting what it is about it that you enjoy. Praising in this way allows the devs to know what they’ve done really well, and so they can emulate what it was about that particular content that was good.

Where I agree that praising can harm is when people unequivocally praise everything, or praise something without saying why it is good. It’s kind of like when games adopt mechanics from other games – they just adopt it as is, and reskin it to fit their game as opposed to looking into why people enjoy it.

Rewards

I agree and disagree.

I agree that, in a sense, clear rewards can provide most people with a goal, but disagree that they are crucial.

The focus should be engaging, intrinsically satisfying game-play (you’d do it for the sake of doing it), with extrinsic motivators (the rewards) being the icing on the cake. More so, you’d probably be able to get away with reasonable RNG on loot drops if the actual content was satisfying.

As for rewards, in a cosmetic based game, how do you define ‘best’? My favourite armour skins for my Necro is a level 25 armour set from Karma recipes.

Now, if you were to say ‘exclusive’ and ‘prestigious’, I’d agree. If the content had an armour or weapon skin(s), a title, crafting materials, recipes, maybe even a unique skill name and animation you can toggle on and off (I.E instead of Final Thrust, you’d have Adelburn’s Rage, which wreaths the strike in Foefire, and does the burning animation if it kills the foe).

The Living Story and Unrelated Features

First, I’d point out it’s kind of a fallacy to state that the LS means that Anet isn’t getting revenue, since the content has to be developed and such.

Secondly, just because the current LS has had temp content, it doesn’t mean that all of it will, and Colin has said there will be more permanent content on the horizon. Also, better to get all the failing out now, rather than have it in a key story point (can you imagine if Jormag was introduced now with the LS being rough around the edges?).

However, I do agree with the features thing. These should be developed alongside the LS. A good example would be the new Achievement rewards (which I know wasn’t around when this was posted). Personally, there are a lot of mechanics and systems they could take from GW1 and adapt to GW2, such as:

• Nic’s Daily Scavanger Hunt (add unique, soulbound items to each loot table, for example, a fire gland from certain types of Drakes, and maybe a randomised list of x items, as opposed to everyone getting the same thing as to not cause people to farm the same mobs. Amaranth could play this role.)
• Guild Halls (and ships, airships, secret volcano bases ect) and GvG
• Books (may get people to redo Story Modes)
• Bounties (from GW Beyond. Make them randomly occurring Meta events that don’t have a specific spawn point in the area)
• The Scrying Pool (to re-allow people to do temp content, although the Fractals will probably act as a more randomised version of this)

Hardcore Content and Longevity

Depends what you mean by “hardcore” and “hard” content. I mean, the terms are thrown around so often and with so very different meanings…

I don’t think “hard” content is necessarily the answer.

Compelling, engaging, challenging and randomised content adds more to longevity. Why?

• Compelling – People will want to do the content, whether it be for the lulz, the rewards or the experience of it.
• Engaging – Engage and immerse the player in the content. Make them think and pay attention (not necessarily just to boss tells, but the environment as well e.g.) as well as doing.
• Challenging – More specific that ‘hard’ (which can be punishingly so, which I don’t believe actually makes challenging content, just frustrating content), challenging content challenges the player, forcing them to draw upon all of their skill , knowledge and concentration but is completely doable.
• Randomised – Kind of ties in with the other points, randomised content you don’t know what you’re going to see next, and so you must take care and plan ahead, as opposed to working from memory. Maybe this next patrol has an Elite caster? Or the boss isn’t where he’s supposed to be, because you let that one guard alert him, so he’s set up an ambush? Granted, these are down to technical limitations and resource limitations (someones got to craft all of the scenarios).

haha that Microsoft comment. anyway, i’ve read everything (yes omfg a Fort of text) and you described perfectly how i feel about gw2 after reaching max level and doing all dungeons (which was about 2 months after game’s launch). I wouldn’t even be writing this if the ps4 or PSO2 was released but they aren’t, so im still playing gw2 because there’s nothing much im interested in. But when they’re are out and if gw2 stays in same game state, this is an uninstall of the game guaranteed because there’s nothing for me to do in it. I would like to keep playing this game in six months but give me a reason to log in and that reason isn’t something stupid such as “make a legendary” or “play wvw”. Sadly, i don’t think anet understands because in 10 months even Microsoft would have understood this game NEEDS END GAME.

AntiGw.9367:

(…)

“Temporary content” is a misnomer. There is always some “temporary” content going on, so it’s not really temporary. It just changes all the time.

Sorry i cant understand what this content does to Tyria, offcourse we have the Karkas desert that “changed tyria map” but anything else didnt, i dont do Fractals but if the new dungeons were added to it i would start doing factals just to fight some bosses that are much enjoyable then anything else in game.

Temporary content that does nothing and change or adds nothing, is a waste of talent and resources.

Aeolus.3615:

AntiGw.9367:

(…)

“Temporary content” is a misnomer. There is always some “temporary” content going on, so it’s not really temporary. It just changes all the time.

Sorry i cant understand what this content does to Tyria, offcourse we have the Karkas desert that “changed tyria map” but anything else didnt, i dont do Fractals but if the new dungeons were added to it i would start doing factals just to fight some bosses that are much enjoyable then anything else in game.

Temporary content that does nothing and change or adds nothing, is a waste of talent and resources.

It becomes part of the lore.

It’s actually perfect in any way I can think of. It adds new stuff every now and then, but the stuff isn’t mandatory so you don’t feel like you are obligated to do it. With time it adds up to the overall storyline that you can read about if you miss it.

Meanwhile, it constantly adds diversity to the skins you see people wearing.

When you lose touch with the community, you become just another sellout in the industry. That’s just it, twist the truth however you want, I’ve seen devs take an absurd amount of criticism and reinforce people’s respect, because they actually stood up for their game. But you’re not doing that, Arena.NET – you can’t even go in here and say “you’re wrong, we’ll have this and this, we haven’t forgotten the hardcore” or defend your game and tell me where I’m wrong.

Wanna know why I said Colin is not a gamer? Because developers who actually play their game talk in a different way – they answer the exact questions people want to ask and they’re not afraid to stand up if they think this is right. You? “OH, Guild Wars 2 can be that, it can be this, it may have an expansion, we could continue the living story, we might do something else…” A gamer dev, even if he angers the community, at least tells it what his plans are.

You can’t do that, so you let me and other people deal with pointless arguments, resorting to whining and complaining that should never have been the point of this thread. You know how this works – if you stay silent people will forget, they’ll stop caring about the forums because they’re pointless and you can continue with your vague promises and soulless marketing.

Guild Wars 2, to me, is not a bad game. It’s a disappointment.

Insignya.8625:

When you lose touch with the community, you become just another sellout in the industry. That’s just it, twist the truth however you want, I’ve seen devs take an absurd amount of criticism and reinforce people’s respect, because they actually stood up for their game. But you’re not doing that, Arena.NET – you can’t even go in here and say “you’re wrong, we’ll have this and this, we haven’t forgotten the hardcore” or defend your game and tell me where I’m wrong.

Wanna know why I said Colin is not a gamer? Because developers who actually play their game talk in a different way – they answer the exact questions people want to ask and they’re not afraid to stand up if they think this is right. You? “OH, Guild Wars 2 can be that, it can be this, it may have an expansion, we could continue the living story, we might do something else…” A gamer dev, even if he angers the community, at least tells it what his plans are.

You can’t do that, so you let me and other people deal with pointless arguments, resorting to whining and complaining that should never have been the point of this thread. You know how this works – if you stay silent people will forget, they’ll stop caring about the forums because they’re pointless and you can continue with your vague promises and soulless marketing.

Guild Wars 2, to me, is not a bad game. It’s a disappointment.

Ah, lost touch with the community. How single-minded of you.

WHICH community. You mean the community of people who agree with you. They’ve lost touch with what YOU want in a game. Maybe what people who share your play style want in a game.

How conveniently you ignore the people who enjoy the game. What about THAT community. Maybe they’re not “gamers” like Colin. Only people like you can be a “gamer”. Do you realize how this sounds?

Anet hasn’t lost touch with the community. Anet is perfectly in touch with a community of people that you happen not to be part of. And that’s okay. Because the playerbase isn’t one huge homogeneous mass. It’s a varied player base with different play styles, who want and crave different things.

And you can’t admit that anyone that plays differently or thinks differently can possibly be a gamer.

Anet is making a game for a different type of gamer. You’re not liking the direction of the game, but that doesn’t make Anet wrong.

I’m not sure that you should be using the word gamer to represent only your demographic.

Insignya.8625:

When you lose touch with the community, you become just another sellout in the industry. That’s just it, twist the truth however you want, I’ve seen devs take an absurd amount of criticism and reinforce people’s respect, because they actually stood up for their game. But you’re not doing that, Arena.NET – you can’t even go in here and say “you’re wrong, we’ll have this and this, we haven’t forgotten the hardcore” or defend your game and tell me where I’m wrong.

Wanna know why I said Colin is not a gamer? Because developers who actually play their game talk in a different way – they answer the exact questions people want to ask and they’re not afraid to stand up if they think this is right. You? “OH, Guild Wars 2 can be that, it can be this, it may have an expansion, we could continue the living story, we might do something else…” A gamer dev, even if he angers the community, at least tells it what his plans are.

You can’t do that, so you let me and other people deal with pointless arguments, resorting to whining and complaining that should never have been the point of this thread. You know how this works – if you stay silent people will forget, they’ll stop caring about the forums because they’re pointless and you can continue with your vague promises and soulless marketing.

Guild Wars 2, to me, is not a bad game. It’s a disappointment.

They are standing up for their game- the fact that you do not like what they are doing with their game is not Anets problem.
Why should they defend themselves in this thread or anywhere else for that matter?

As for saying Collin is not a gamer- that is a ridiculous statement based on some criteria in your head.

If you want to be taken at all seriously, stop the name calling and attacking everyone who does not share your opinion.
Honestly I am starting to wonder how old you are

Vayne.8563:

Ah, lost touch with the community. How single-minded of you.

WHICH community. You mean the community of people who agree with you. They’ve lost touch with what YOU want in a game. Maybe what people who share your play style want in a game.

They didn’t lost touch with you because you would be glad with anything what they do…

Edit: I think what Insignya is trying to say is that AN is not doing what is the best for the game. They just react mindlessly to that what the current rant is about.

HiddenNick.7206:

Edit: I think what Insignya is trying to say is that AN is not doing what is the best for the game. They just react mindlessly to that what the current rant is about.

I believe most forum posters don’t care about what is best for the game, they just react mindlessly to whatever happened with the last patch.

HiddenNick.7206:

Vayne.8563:

Ah, lost touch with the community. How single-minded of you.

WHICH community. You mean the community of people who agree with you. They’ve lost touch with what YOU want in a game. Maybe what people who share your play style want in a game.

They didn’t lost touch with because you would be glad with anything what they do…

Edit: I think what Insignya is trying to say is that AN is not doing what is the best for the game. They just react mindlessly to that what the current rant is about.

First of all, you’re not only a bit wrong, but you’re very wrong. I’m not glad with anything they do to the game, and only someone who has not followed what I write could possibly claim so. Or did you miss my very vocal condemnation of the RNG in cash shop boxes.

Your problem is, you think anyone who doesn’t see things your way must be totally accepting of anything. Well get this…I like the direction the game is moving in. Really. It’s not that I’d like ANYTHING Anet did.

I don’t particularly like the way ascended gear was introduced, for example and said so. I’ve said I don’t like the way the personal story was solo up to Arah and suddenly it was multiplayer. I’ve said I don’t like how story dungeons tell the story of Destiny’s Edge. I thought it was a poor design decision.

But people like you continue to say I like anything Anet does.

Time to take your blinders off. You’re prejudice against me because I like a game that you don’t like. That has nothing to do with having no standards and everything to do with having different standards.

Insignya.8625:

When you lose touch with the community, you become just another sellout in the industry. That’s just it, twist the truth however you want, I’ve seen devs take an absurd amount of criticism and reinforce people’s respect, because they actually stood up for their game. But you’re not doing that, Arena.NET – you can’t even go in here and say “you’re wrong, we’ll have this and this, we haven’t forgotten the hardcore” or defend your game and tell me where I’m wrong.

Wanna know why I said Colin is not a gamer? Because developers who actually play their game talk in a different way – they answer the exact questions people want to ask and they’re not afraid to stand up if they think this is right. You? “OH, Guild Wars 2 can be that, it can be this, it may have an expansion, we could continue the living story, we might do something else…” A gamer dev, even if he angers the community, at least tells it what his plans are.

Mike and Colin’s latest interviews have laid out their plans in very clear, easy to understand ways.

To summarise: The current plan is to develop and refine the Living Story concept while also developing more long-term projects (including Player Housing, Guild Halls and the GW2 version of ‘raids’, Fortune’s Vale) in the background. These long-term updates will then be released alongside the Living Story updates when they’re ready. The Living Story itself will include more permanent content going forward, as players have shown a strong desire for such.

Another quick example of Arenanet responding to the community is its RNG – Fused were gemstore only, Scel came from boxes that dropped in the open world, Jade come from boxes that drop frequently and can be traded. Although not perfect, this is a marked improvement on what has come previously.

At present, Arenanet has no plans to develop a traditional boxed expansion but it is not a strategy they are closed to, should the playerbase and the state of the game change in a way that would make expansion development optimal.

Towards the end of the month, they will release a more detailed blog post, along with a video, which will expand upon the company’s plans for the last half of this year.

You can say many things of Arenanet, especially regarding the Manifesto, but you really can’t honestly claim that they don’t respond to or communicate with us.

Insignya.8625:

See you in Wildstar.

Wildstar will fail like every other big MMO released in the last few years. I can actually tell you exactly what will happen to that game.

HiddenNick.7206:

What I want is that rewards have meaning. And that’s only that.

When you begin to worry more about rewards than about the experience, you are opening the door to what every other MMORPG does – mediocre content just to get a shiny reward in the end, aka grind.

This is what people are exemplifying when they say you want gear grind – not the gear grind itself, but the idea behind playing not because you are having fun, but rather that you are playing content that is not fun just to get a reward.

And if you are having fun by playing… Why do you need a reward?

It’s the exact same thing as demanding to be paid in order to go see a movie. People go watch a movie because they enjoy it, and that experience is enough by itself. There is no need to get a reward for doing something enjoyable.

If you were not willing to play GW2 without receiving any kind of reward whatsoever for doing so… Then maybe you simply don’t like playing GW2.

@Safer Saviour, ever watched a League patch preview? Let me know when you do. What Colin is doing is 100% pure marketing, he’s not going into specifics, he’s just saying “oh yeah we’ll do that some day”. I don’t expect you to understand me the way I don’t expect Vayne and Morrigan to not continue to quote me and spurn out even more pointless arguing that’s light years away from the topic. But hey, that’s how forum warriors work. Please, show me your online superiority, I’m lolled you still haven’t discussed a single suggestion from my original list.

Listen ,this thread has become pointless. You wanna get back on topic, do so. At this point it’s just a bunch of people quoting me endlessly. I gave you a list of suggestions but yeah, why bother reading those when you can see something opinionated of mine and write an essay about it.

They never fixed the RNG issue, it’s still there. It’s just marketed more cleverly. Do we know the percentage chance of getting a skin? Do we know if accounts aren’t blacklisted for RNG? Unless they make a thread about it, explaining everything people have been asking for months about RNG, I have no reason to believe they’re not just screwing us over in a more creative way.

Insignya.8625:

Do we know if accounts aren’t blacklisted for RNG?

Uh… That’s kinda ridiculous. It’s the same thing as asking if we know ArenaNet isn’t part of an alien conspiracy to take over the world, one MMORPG at a time. They already said there isn’t some kind of personal vendetta against a few players in the game. Players are just more willing to believe on crazy conspiracy theories than understand that RNG means “RANDOM number generator”.

Insy, would you please use examples of Colin and Mike being misleadingly vague about the Living Story plan? Furthermore, I would like to know exactly what isn’t clear about the plan I summarised in my last post.

Don’t worry, I will address your original post soon. I will need time to compose a full and considered response. =3

Insignya.8625:

@Safer Saviour, ever watched a League patch preview? Let me know when you do. What Colin is doing is 100% pure marketing, he’s not going into specifics, he’s just saying “oh yeah we’ll do that some day”. I don’t expect you to understand me the way I don’t expect Vayne and Morrigan to not continue to quote me and spurn out even more pointless arguing that’s light years away from the topic. But hey, that’s how forum warriors work. Please, show me your online superiority, I’m lolled you still haven’t discussed a single suggestion from my original list.

Listen ,this thread has become pointless. You wanna get back on topic, do so. At this point it’s just a bunch of people quoting me endlessly. I gave you a list of suggestions but yeah, why bother reading those when you can see something opinionated of mine and write an essay about it.

They never fixed the RNG issue, it’s still there. It’s just marketed more cleverly. Do we know the percentage chance of getting a skin? Do we know if accounts aren’t blacklisted for RNG? Unless they make a thread about it, explaining everything people have been asking for months about RNG, I have no reason to believe they’re not just screwing us over in a more creative way.

Maybe people would discuss your suggestions if the way you communicate came across as less of an attack on anyone who doesn’t agree with you.

You don’t encourage discussion. You’re completely dismissive of people who don’t share your play style.

@Erasculio, it’s incredibly easy to fix the odds on accounts. They’re not gonna go and say “yeah we can blacklist whenever we want”. RNG is an algorithm, it can be modified for players and why shouldn’t it? If someone’s paying for gold with real money and loses it all in the Forge, he’s gonna buy more most likely. Of course, none of that is proven, but none of that is disproved either. When people are asking you straight questions and you’re kitten ing around copy-pasting stuff from the manifesto, then it’s only logical to assume you’re being dishonest.

@Safer Saviour, the Living Story was supposed to change the world. It didn’t. It was meant to bring an “expansion’s worth of content”. It didn’t. It was also meant to bring content both temporary and permanent. It didn’t. The vague responses from Arena.NET don’t just concern the Living Story and I’ve written about them in an old thread, “How 10 months changed my perspective”.

I’m dismissive of people who spend their entire life in this forum without bringing a single actual suggestion.

Insignya.8625:

@Erasculio, it’s incredibly easy to fix the odds on accounts. They’re not gonna go and say “yeah we can blacklist whenever we want”. RNG is an algorithm, it can be modified for players and why shouldn’t it? If someone’s paying for gold with real money and loses it all in the Forge, he’s gonna buy more most likely. Of course, none of that is proven, but none of that is disproved either. When people are asking you straight questions and you’re kitten ing around copy-pasting stuff from the manifesto, then it’s only logical to assume you’re being dishonest.

@Safer Saviour, the Living Story was supposed to change the world. It didn’t. It was meant to bring an “expansion’s worth of content”. It didn’t. It was also meant to bring content both temporary and permanent. It didn’t. The vague responses from Arena.NET don’t just concern the Living Story and I’ve written about them in an old thread, “How 10 months changed my perspective”.

I’m dismissive of people who spend their entire life in this forum without bringing a single actual suggestion.

At least you admit you’re dismissive.

As such there’s no reason why anyone should take you seriously.

I have to confess that I only got roughly through 3/4 of the op. (to the part where he claimed that Anet released an unfinished game.) I simply cannot read any more. I couldn’t disagree more with the purpose of this thread. Anet has been pushing in the right direction since day one. To sit there and say, “we want this now” is not practical in the least.

You want hardcore stuff? There is some hardcore stuff. I’m certain they are working on more. You want improvements to WvW? They are working on them! Just give Anet some time for crying out loud. If you take a minute to sit back and realize all of the amazing changes to the game that have come since day one, you might be pleasantly surprised. Just the other week I watched a video on YouTube by (I think it was) Woodenpotatoes discussing all of the changes since the start. Anet isn’t just sitting back twiddling their thumbs and watching their game go to pot. They’re actively improving it one step at a time. Patience is a virtue, my friend.

I’m also confused as to why you are dismissing the achievements as no more than a “grind.” That’s not true at all. You can turn anything into a grind if you want to, but it doesn’t have to be. Shoot, most of the achievements are a lot of fun!

That’s all I’ll say on this matter. I’m certain someone is going to kill me now for having faith in Anet…read my sig.

Casual players are the most profitable.

One of the core features of the Guild Wars franchise is its Buy-To-Pay model. The idea is that without a subscription fee, players are free to take ‘time off’ the game and shouldn’t feel obligated to play in order to ‘keep up’ or ‘get their money’s worth’. This is incredibly important when you consider the young professionals market, which consists of people working long hours and bringing home more disposable income than they may have had previously. Maintaining this market is incredibly important to the survival of the game for obvious reasons. Alienating them is exceptionally dangerous.

Playing casually does not mean playing lazily.

Players with limited time to spend gaming often still like a degree of challenge and commitment in their gameplay experiences. Content such as the Molten Facility and the Aetherblade Retreat pose interesting challenges not seen elsewhere in the game and their temporary nature means that there are always PUGs looking for an extra player or two. This makes them perfect for those who just want to log on for a couple of hours and find something fun to do. I do support the current plan of adding them to Fractals for those who wish to revisit them, but without the time-sensitive rewards like the jetpack and monocle.

The proportion of players who engage in large-scale group content is a small fraction of the playerbase.

Last time I checked, even WoW only had around 20% of its playerbase involved in raid content. Large-group content will not help the longevity of the game unless the content is accessible to the majority of the playerbase and not gated through gear or influence. This is not to say that those who enjoy large-group content should sit back and stew. I applaud Arenanet’s decision to continue to expand upon the Guild Missions system and to work on Fortune’s Vale – the first sentence in GW2’s answer to raids. I hope they deliver.

The rewards GW2 has in place are fine.

Skins are enough of a reward. Miniatures, new weapon and armour skins, new stat combinations and their ilk are enough to motivate players into ploughing through the content needed to acquire them. This is evident in the effort that players put into gaining these new skins. For many people, the issue is not that the reward isn’t good enough but that the reward is based on luck rather than effort. The Fused Weapon skins excited people but those same people were disheartened to know that unless they got very, very lucky with drops, they would never be able to acquire them.

The ‘sense’ of reward isn’t.

The people lucky enough to acquire Fused weapons didn’t feel as if they’d achieved something great, they simply felt lucky. Perhaps they also felt relieved that the money they’d spent hadn’t been wasted. This is an issue that carries over into Legendary precursors. There’s no sense of achievement. Supporting this is that some of Arenanet’s most successful and acclaimed content has been its most experimental, such as the Mad King’s Clocktower and the Super Adventure Box. Those who completed the challenges these set (especially the former) felt accomplished because they’d, well, actually accomplished something. The reward, in this instance, was utterly incidental.

Going forward.

The reason I want Fortune’s Vale to be a success, the reason I want more PvP modes (really, GW1 had a plethora) and the reason I want to go back to the old continents is simple: I want more content, with more challenges and more to experience. I support the Living Story plan, as I feel it is a good method of delivering frequent, new content to the masses. It also enables the developers to experiment more wildly than they might have done in the past and to see how the playerbase responds to specific challenges and areas. This can only help to inform their long-term projects, some of which we know are under development (Guild Halls, Player Housing, Fortune’s Vale, Further Fractals etc.) and will be released alongside the Living Story patches.

I admit, certain aspects of the Living Story have been disappointing but Arenanet is constantly refining the process and is delivering content which is genuinely fun to play. I can see the beginning of the overarching storyline they’ve been saying is hidden in these updates and I can see how the Living Story format could be used to great potential. Perhaps I’m too much an optimist, but I believe that the Living Story method and its associated would be better than rushing Fortune’s Vale out the door to early and praying for more people like you.

Insig, you’re wasting your time here… The large majority of people on this forum are blindly supporting anet as a hardcore microsoft fanboy would justify DRM and pay dat $500 for weak console. They’re happy collecting minis, stand in LA, wait for free new anet skins, stand in LA with free new skins, may do a daily, buy some gems and stand in LA some more. This is what GW2 is about, stand in a town and talk to people… No matter how you try, its impossible to get any more casual. Don’t bother arguing with a ‘mini pet collector’ because to them gameplay feels as it should, do nothing and receive free reward twice per month from anet, YAY so fun.

GW2 had HUGE potential. We saw this before release. Now the devs are running around like headless chickens having suggestions flying at them like rocks from every direction. What do they do? In such a panic, they fail to recognize any of the GOOD suggestions, and decide to go off and do their own thing to the dislike of the playerbase, both casual AND hardcore.

Now I’m far too invested in GW. Both time and money wise. GW1 improved massively over the years. And I’m still clinging onto hope that GIVEMEMONEYsoft will pull their heads out from their behinds and start focusing on their biggest title. And it’s up to Anet to start pressuring GIMMEMONEYsoft to giving them much greater funding and stop thieving from this game’s (GUILD WARS) profits.

Turgut.4397:

And it’s up to Anet to start pressuring GIMMEMONEYsoft to giving them much greater funding and stop thieving from this game’s (GUILD WARS) profits.

Ncsoft isn’t thieving anything from this game’s profits.

Agree on pretty much everything the OP said, except the rng.
RNG was always in mmos, and will always be.

Maybe i’m in the minority, but i pretty much prefer something like fractals skins to linear token progression, where it’s basically like having a % bar on top of you screen telling you how many times you have to repeat the content in order to get your belonged item.

HOWEVER i do think that the best skins should be rewards for skill AND dedication. Right now legendaries are a joke, they show nothing but countless hours of cof grinding or an oversized VISA card.

Erasculio.2914:

When you begin to worry more about rewards than about the experience, you are opening the door to what every other MMORPG does – mediocre content just to get a shiny reward in the end, aka grind.

I do have fun playing gw2! That’s not my problem. There is nothing to fix there – for me. I just don’t like those mini games. I think they are most certainly not the answer for the people that are bored with the game.

And if you read my other posts then you would know that the meaning of rewards suck.

Edit. One more thing. MMO’s are like community hubs. It’s not only about the gameplay but more about interactions with other people. Showing your achievements to other people is a part of that.

Aegis.9724:

Agree on pretty much everything the OP said, except the rng.
RNG was always in mmos, and will always be.

^this. If the OP thinks the RNG on GW2 is bad you should try out some of the korean MMO’s. Some items are so rare/hard to craft that you can sell an RMT an item for 1000+ dollars on an unpopular game.

Totally agree with the skill based aspect of this game… you don’t need any. Most of the classes you can just faceroll to win.

I’m fine with smart use of RNG, like what you see with the Fractal skins. Things I find dreadful are the chests and coffers, as well as the precursors. The latter just adds to the overall feel of pointlessness to playing Guild Wars 2 for a long time. If you can whoop out a Dusk from the Forge you’re essentially 3 months of grinding ahead. It adds to a painful discrepancy between committed players and people who won the GW2 lottery. And, you know, it’s another reason why hardcore folk just aren’t welcomed here. This doesn’t mean I want to grind nor that I find it to be an endgame, it’s just the only “progressive” thing the game offers me to do past level 80, so precursors break even that notion of character development.

Hah, I remember breaking an enchanted weapon in TERA. Man, I got genuinely scared, it was so sudden and frustrating. And yeah, I don’t play that many MMOs in general so I had no idea that possibility existed.

Nuka Cola.8520:

Insig, you’re wasting your time here… The large majority of people on this forum are blindly supporting anet as a hardcore microsoft fanboy would justify DRM and pay dat $500 for weak console. They’re happy collecting minis, stand in LA, wait for free new anet skins, stand in LA with free new skins, may do a daily, buy some gems and stand in LA some more. This is what GW2 is about, stand in a town and talk to people… No matter how you try, its impossible to get any more casual. Don’t bother arguing with a ‘mini pet collector’ because to them gameplay feels as it should, do nothing and receive free reward twice per month from anet, YAY so fun.

The large number of people on this forum aren’t BLINDLY doing anything and to suggest they are is insulting to them.

See, people don’t agree with YOUR opinion so we must be BLINDLY supporting the game. Don’t you think that’s a bit arrogant on your part?

Isn’t it just as likely that people enjoy different play styles or have a different opinion. Maybe those people think you’re blindly ignoring the best parts of this game.

When stuff is worded this way it undermines anything legitimate you might have to say.

Reds themselves can start a thread asking people what they like or don’t like in the game, have a Q&A Session or collect poll results. Lots of games have a system where they collect community feedback, like Planetside 2’s Road Map. And at this point it’s kinda necessary – Guild Wars 2’s following a path many don’t find worth it to follow anymore and a blog post won’t hold their interest for long because, again, it’s nothing specific.

In 2013 devs are expected to seep through community feedback and find what’s best. For that they create their own systems or borrow somebody else’s. It’s another major part of future-proofing a game, you can’t not have an established method of taking the good criticism out of the bad.

Insignya.8625:

Reds themselves can start a thread asking people what they like or don’t like in the game, have a Q&A Session or collect poll results. Lots of games have a system where they collect community feedback, like Planetside 2’s Road Map. And at this point it’s kinda necessary – Guild Wars 2’s following a path many don’t find worth it to follow anymore and a blog post won’t hold their interest for long because, again, it’s nothing specific.

In 2013 devs are expected to seep through community feedback and find what’s best. For that they create their own systems or borrow somebody else’s. It’s another major part of future-proofing a game, you can’t not have an established method of taking the good criticism out of the bad.

But in case you haven’t noticed, the community feedback is mixed. That is to say, about half the people want what you want and about half the people want what I want…and they’re mutually exclusive.

So maybe devs ARE listening to community feedback and your side doesn’t have the numbers you think it does.

Vayne.8563:

Insignya.8625:

Reds themselves can start a thread asking people what they like or don’t like in the game, have a Q&A Session or collect poll results. Lots of games have a system where they collect community feedback, like Planetside 2’s Road Map. And at this point it’s kinda necessary – Guild Wars 2’s following a path many don’t find worth it to follow anymore and a blog post won’t hold their interest for long because, again, it’s nothing specific.

In 2013 devs are expected to seep through community feedback and find what’s best. For that they create their own systems or borrow somebody else’s. It’s another major part of future-proofing a game, you can’t not have an established method of taking the good criticism out of the bad.

But in case you haven’t noticed, the community feedback is mixed. That is to say, about half the people want what you want and about half the people want what I want…and they’re mutually exclusive.

So maybe devs ARE listening to community feedback and your side doesn’t have the numbers you think it does.

I don’t know if it’s as clear cut as a 50/50 split in the forum community.

I find I agree or disagree with different things different people bring up. For example :Sometimes I agree with points of view that you espouse, sometimes I disagree. I agree with some of what the OP is saying, and disagree with others. I find it’s that way with most of the posts I read, and I have the feeling that the devs are the same way. While every single idea may not be worthwhile when taken as a whole, they all offer something of value.

I think there are more people on the forum with ideas than just “Us” and “Them”. Unless the us and them break down to the people who actually discuss a given topic, and those who just continually shout that others are wrong without actually adding anything to the topic.