Guild Wars 2

Waffler.1257:

plasmacutter.2709:

It’s obviously a carry-over from GW1 and other classic rpgs which really should have been given the chop long ago.

Where was magic find in GW1? I don’t remember it.

I don’t remember this neither shrug

plasmacutter.2709:

mulch.2586:

plasmacutter.2709:

Additionally, it rewards people who cripple their effectiveness for their parties in dungeons and dynamic events, making them harder to down.

You won’t cripple your effectiveness, because gear stats only comprise 21% of the stats affecting your character’s performance. Most of it comes from your level and traits. Not to mention skills and how you deploy them.

I’m not buying the 21% effectiveness thing.

I have a pretty standard GS build on my mesmer and all rares on it.

People in exotics hit spatial surge for 1.5k

I hit it for 900.

Gear matters more than 21%

I’m not saying it’s 21% of your power. I would have to see your character to calculate it. My mesmer on a light armor target from max distance my hits are 260-508 (Knights & Soldiers/Divinity with 10 points in domination).

But you have 916 in every stat, naked. You get the equivalent of 1400 stat points in traits, plus whatever effects you have selected. Your weapon itself adds about 1000 to your damage multiplier.

In contrast, a complete set of exotic armor gives you a grand total of 763 stat points, divided among 3 different attributes. If one of those 3 attributes is MF instead of vitality or precision or whatever, you’ve still got all the rest.

The reason I went to look closer at the GW2 math is I kept finding myself wearing my MF gear and not noticing any changes. I wear MF for what’s supposedly the most challenging zones in the game. Am I a brilliant player? No, it’s just that gear stats don’t matter very much, mostly because they make a relatively small contribution.

Other games you play, all or almost all of your stats may be on the gear. If you’re used to playing those games, you can have false beliefs about their efficacy here in GW2.

Personally, I find that people that complain about magic find are typically the same people that will complain about any number of insignificant things in order to shield themselves from scrutiny. Often, the guy complaining about MF is the guy doing the least for his team, and blaming his misfortune on “ALL THE DANG [Edit] LEECHERS!”

I would never complain about MF while in a team, I don’t know what my team’s gear is, nor do I care, but in the abstract, I know that I have the best gear I’ve been able to put together towards making myself useful, and that I do the best that I can, whatever that may be, and I just don’t like the idea of another player not doing the same. It strikes against my inherent sense of fairness.

If you moved MF to consumables only people would start complaining about their pugs eating non-stat foods.

True enough, but why not make them non-conflicting consumables? I have some Skale Poison, for example, that gives me a 10 minute buff but does not conflict with my food. Why not have a purchasable MF consumable that would in no way interact with any other form of strength-enhancing buffs.

So, what you’re saying is that magic find, in stead of being a tradeoff for core stats just shouldn’t exist? MF is a tradeoff for core stats specifically to reward the ability to perform well without them, and to be completely honest, it is really not that difficult to acquire the gear you need in this game compared to most others.

Yes, but that’s the problem, when you’re playing solo, then that’s a fair tradeoff. When you’re playing in a group, however, all MF gear means is that you’re dropping the ball by X amount relative to the rest of the team, while getting X amount better rewards for your selfishness. In solo, MF makes perfect sense, in groups it is completely contrary to just effort-> reward.

The reason I went to look closer at the GW2 math is I kept finding myself wearing my MF gear and not noticing any changes. I wear MF for what’s supposedly the most challenging zones in the game. Am I a brilliant player? No, it’s just that gear stats don’t matter very much, mostly because they make a relatively small contribution.

And because the rest of your team is carrying you. Unless you’re talking just wandering around level 80 zones solo, in which case you wouldn’t be taking on the “most challenging zones in the game,” because those are all dungeons. I run solo content in MF gear too, and I don’t have much trouble with it either, but I have noticed a significant improvement in both damage and survivability when wearing my superior dungeon armors when doing Fractal runs (and this is at pre-agony levels).

Jasher.6580:

Everyone is wearing magic find gear to dungeons to increase their rewards, I’m not sure how or why the developers thought this would be a good idea.

I think there should be a cap to the amount of magic find you can benefit from and make that mark very low so people aren’t wearing FULL magic find gear to dungeons.

You should also adjust the booster to make the player reach that magic find cap (more gem store purchases for you guys?)… and then remove the magic find from guild perks and all other avenues.

I think MF is an awesome attribute,it gives players a small chance of having better loot.In other mmo’s its Always the 0000000.1% chance to drop factor,here you can atleast make the decision for yourself to increase your “luck”.I only think that you should wear MF in a dungeon,if youve already done it and know what to do and what to expect.

Given that MF is only used for monster drops… I don’t really know why people would run MF gear in dungeons. It’s not like you kill enough mobs for the law of averages to even kick in in your favor with MF gear.

That being said… I don’t begrudge anybody wearing MF gear in a dungeon. It’s not like dungeons are really so difficult with a full party that cutting back on one stat in favor of MF would really make a difference.

Dungeons are more about playing the mechanics. Stats are secondary to that.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, but that’s the problem, when you’re playing solo, then that’s a fair tradeoff. When you’re playing in a group, however, all MF gear means is that you’re dropping the ball by X amount relative to the rest of the team, while getting X amount better rewards for your selfishness. In solo, MF makes perfect sense, in groups it is completely contrary to just effort-> reward.

This is a common misconception. You’re not automatically dropping the ball in MF gear if your build is designed around your MF gear. My point on MF gear is that while it may technically be sub-optimal, running in anything but a team of 5 lolbubblestomp guardians with perfect food and potions is sub-optimal for most content in terms of run efficiency. There’s a line to draw here I think, and that line is “Does every character need to be 100% optimal to meaningfully contribute to success?”

I don’t believe that’s the case, as all content can be completed successfully and with little to no additional effort or skill by a full on MF party. It simply takes a little longer. The idea that MF gear creates leeching group members is just not true. The idea that leechers gravitate toward MF gear is however true, but that is to be expected. Removing MF wouldn’t remove leechers. I can not honestly say I’ve ever been personally effected solely by another player running MF in stead of pure stat gear. The statistical difference in ability damage, ability to stay alive, or other player actions is already easily offset by the already non-predictable DPS inherant in the high-mobility combat system of GW2. A player in stat gear playing only slightly less well than the same build in MF gear is very easily falling behind with the way combat works in this game, which is in contrast to a more traditional linear stream dps trinity model.

Ohoni.6057:

Personally, I find that people that complain about magic find are typically the same people that will complain about any number of insignificant things in order to shield themselves from scrutiny. Often, the guy complaining about MF is the guy doing the least for his team, and blaming his misfortune on “ALL THE DANG [Edit] LEECHERS!”

I would never complain about MF while in a team, I don’t know what my team’s gear is, nor do I care, but in the abstract, I know that I have the best gear I’ve been able to put together towards making myself useful, and that I do the best that I can, whatever that may be, and I just don’t like the idea of another player not doing the same. It strikes against my inherent sense of fairness.

If you moved MF to consumables only people would start complaining about their pugs eating non-stat foods.

True enough, but why not make them non-conflicting consumables? I have some Skale Poison, for example, that gives me a 10 minute buff but does not conflict with my food. Why not have a purchasable MF consumable that would in no way interact with any other form of strength-enhancing buffs.

So, what you’re saying is that magic find, in stead of being a tradeoff for core stats just shouldn’t exist? MF is a tradeoff for core stats specifically to reward the ability to perform well without them, and to be completely honest, it is really not that difficult to acquire the gear you need in this game compared to most others.

Yes, but that’s the problem, when you’re playing solo, then that’s a fair tradeoff. When you’re playing in a group, however, all MF gear means is that you’re dropping the ball by X amount relative to the rest of the team, while getting X amount better rewards for your selfishness. In solo, MF makes perfect sense, in groups it is completely contrary to just effort-> reward.

The reason I went to look closer at the GW2 math is I kept finding myself wearing my MF gear and not noticing any changes. I wear MF for what’s supposedly the most challenging zones in the game. Am I a brilliant player? No, it’s just that gear stats don’t matter very much, mostly because they make a relatively small contribution.

And because the rest of your team is carrying you. Unless you’re talking just wandering around level 80 zones solo, in which case you wouldn’t be taking on the “most challenging zones in the game,” because those are all dungeons. I run solo content in MF gear too, and I don’t have much trouble with it either, but I have noticed a significant improvement in both damage and survivability when wearing my superior dungeon armors when doing Fractal runs (and this is at pre-agony levels).

This game gives players the freedom to play however the kitten they want to. If they want to use MF it’s not a big deal, they can still perform well. This game wasn’t about stats and more about just having fun. It’s changed a bit with Ascended gear but it still doesn’t mean kitten if someone wants to use MF over something else. Get over it. Tired of all these god kitten whiners for something so stupid.

I myself 1st ran dungeons with MF gear cause it was the 1st exotic gear I made, I was just as squishy as the toughness gear I use now. MF gear is almost useless in dungeons as it is with very few mobs dropping stuff, and MF not having an effect on chests. And with the current drop bug you get even less drops in dungeons.

Unfortunately, people will descriminate against stats that aren’t what they consider ideal, not just MF. I have had the saddening experience of being removed form a group when wearing my toughness gear because the person believed only berserker builds should do dungeons.

This shows that everybody has an opinion, right or wrong, about whats others should be wearing when they group up with them. The fact is that all can work well together, or fail miserably, solely based on playing styles.

My issue with MF is simply that its a BS mechanic, that pushes you more towards being a glass cannon in instances where you shouldn’t be.

Game already has very limited variety, this doesnt help.

And personally its just annoying, I don’t run dungeons, I have 2 toons in full exotic, and I hate having to ditch my gear and play the glass cannon style I don’t enjoy, just in order to get drops.

This game is all about the gear carrot, Ive got the gear, not allow me to use it effectively.

I think the most telling point is the other night in Orr, one of the events got bugged, so everybody stopped doing events, switched to thier MF sets, and just sat there and farmed the bugged event for hours on end.

If people would rather sit at a bugged event then actually playing the game, that just about says it all to me.

The difference between a full set of greens with magic find and a full set of oranges with crit chance is only roughly 5-6% damage output.

That difference is easily made up by good player vs bad player skill level.

Gear really means nothing in this game when the difference between a masterwork and a legendary is only 50 stats and your base stats are 2000.

This is a common misconception. You’re not automatically dropping the ball in MF gear if your build is designed around your MF gear. My point on MF gear is that while it may technically be sub-optimal, running in anything but a team of 5 lolbubblestomp guardians with perfect food and potions is sub-optimal for most content in terms of run efficiency. There’s a line to draw here I think, and that line is “Does every character need to be 100% optimal to meaningfully contribute to success?”

You’re deliberately missing out on, what, 200-250 points of strength-enhancing stats? That would be around 20 levels of trait points, more than the difference between a set of blue 80 gear and a set of orange 80 gear, if I’m not mistaken. It’s more difference than eating 2 different level 80 meals. You may not be complete kitten to the rest of the party, but you’re certainly doing less than you could be for them.

I don’t believe that’s the case, as all content can be completed successfully and with little to no additional effort or skill by a full on MF party. It simply takes a little longer.

Yes, and if the whole party chooses to go MF then that’s perfectly fine, by if one member of a party chooses to go MF and everyone else is instead trying their best for the party, then the party would take 1/5th longer, with 1/5th more bad outcomes, all so that only that ONE member would gain better loot. If the entire party benefited from the MFer’s greed then that would be fine, but they don’t, so he’s hurting everyone else in the group for his own benefit.

I saw a study about this on 60 minutes last week, it’s behavior that most people grow out of in middle school.

This game gives players the freedom to play however the kitten they want to. If they want to use MF it’s not a big deal, they can still perform well. This game wasn’t about stats and more about just having fun. It’s changed a bit with Ascended gear but it still doesn’t mean kitten if someone wants to use MF over something else. Get over it. Tired of all these god kitten whiners for something so stupid.

The point isn’t to convince people not to use MF gear if they want to use MF gear. The point is to get ANet to change the way MF gear works, so that it’s either more fair to the people who party with MF players on this MF plane, OR make it so that MF doesn’t work in a way that encourages players to wear it when in a team activity. The rules should change, not the players who are only adapting to the rules as they are.

I myself 1st ran dungeons with MF gear cause it was the 1st exotic gear I made, I was just as squishy as the toughness gear I use now. MF gear is almost useless in dungeons as it is with very few mobs dropping stuff, and MF not having an effect on chests. And with the current drop bug you get even less drops in dungeons.

Even without MF gear I tend to fill up about 20 slots with blue+ gear in a single Fractal run, and this is with breaking down any whites and salvageables that drop. If I had a better drop rate I would need a bigger bag.

My issue with MF is simply that its a BS mechanic, that pushes you more towards being a glass cannon in instances where you shouldn’t be.

It’s not even glass cannon, it’s glass pea-shooter.

Peetee.9406:

The difference between a full set of greens with magic find and a full set of oranges with crit chance is only roughly 5-6% damage output.

That difference is easily made up by good player vs bad player skill level.

Gear really means nothing in this game when the difference between a masterwork and a legendary is only 50 stats and your base stats are 2000.

The person who wears full MF gear is bypassing vitality,toughness, and crit damage for starters.

Its not really a question of how much damage they can do nearly as much as how much damage they can take.

Its the same reason why people who run dungeons really dont like pugging with glass cannon builds, spend more time picking them up off the ground then they spend putting out dps in the first place.

leng jai.2961:

Making chest loot drops scale to your amount of MF you have is plain ridiculous and a slap in the face to everyone who doesn’t want to use it.

Where does it say the chests will scale off Magic Find? Or are you saying that that chests do and have always scaled of Magic Find, which is (according to Dev post which I can’t recall when/where it was) that Magic Find affects ONLY loot you get from “searching” a corpse?

Bvhjdbvkjf.1987:

Well when you roll and Ele and are constantly the furthest away from the mobs, then you can possibly explain to me how one gets all the aggro without doing highest DPS…

Cause I sure don’t use an effing shield to draw aggro.

Aggro = Random, even if you don’t hit the boss you will get hit eventually. It’s funny to see people saying on this game “I hit like a truck because i got aggro”.

Peetee.9406:

The difference between a full set of greens with magic find and a full set of oranges with crit chance is only roughly 5-6% damage output.

What? 5 or 6%? Even a set of full exotic MF gear will make you worse than that…by far.
I don’t know what comparison you made between gear but MF gear has less stats and no third stat.
In the case of explorer gear for example, you have less power and no critical damage at all, now add to that the stats missing from jewerly and all the runes from armor/jewerly which results in you having less power and zero critical damage outside the traits (30%…and you can reach 100%+ in PvE).
I would like to know how a 70% less critical damage and probably 250-300+ less power results into 5-6% damage loss.
The difference is so big that a green set of no MF gear is better than full exotic MF gear.

Sleepy.2647:

Bvhjdbvkjf.1987:

Well when you roll and Ele and are constantly the furthest away from the mobs, then you can possibly explain to me how one gets all the aggro without doing highest DPS…

Cause I sure don’t use an effing shield to draw aggro.

Aggro = Random, even if you don’t hit the boss you will get hit eventually. It’s funny to see people saying on this game “I hit like a truck because i got aggro”.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro#Gaining_and_Losing_Aggro

For your education since Aggro isn’t completely random.

When I use a staff on my Ele, stand behind warriors, guardians, and rangers (and their pets) and the mob getting hit by 3+ other sources of damage chooses to chase me even when I try to run by other player characters in an effort to dislodge them… it’s not because I hit like a truck it’s because I hit like a glass cannon. My traits and skill choices help me maintain the cannon build even when I’m in MF gear, so people who think that MF truly degrades a player’s ability to kill mobs need to try partying with me and see if they can keep aggro off me rather than just cry here that it’s not the case.

I know it’s not completely random, but it’s not any kind of aggro system that allows you to state that you get aggro because you make the highest DPS, it has nothing to do with the damage you do. You can get aggro by multiple factors, so it defeats your point entirely.

You can just go near a boss and get aggro, or stay away and still get aggro because others dropped it.

Bvhjdbvkjf.1987:

Sleepy.2647:

Bvhjdbvkjf.1987:

Well when you roll and Ele and are constantly the furthest away from the mobs, then you can possibly explain to me how one gets all the aggro without doing highest DPS…

Cause I sure don’t use an effing shield to draw aggro.

Aggro = Random, even if you don’t hit the boss you will get hit eventually. It’s funny to see people saying on this game “I hit like a truck because i got aggro”.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro#Gaining_and_Losing_Aggro

For your education since Aggro isn’t completely random.

When I use a staff on my Ele, stand behind warriors, guardians, and rangers (and their pets) and the mob getting hit by 3+ other sources of damage chooses to chase me even when I try to run by other player characters in an effort to dislodge them… it’s not because I hit like a truck it’s because I hit like a glass cannon. My traits and skill choices help me maintain the cannon build even when I’m in MF gear, so people who think that MF truly degrades a player’s ability to kill mobs need to try partying with me and see if they can keep aggro off me rather than just cry here that it’s not the case.

The point is that you’re not stripping aggro because of higher damage. You’re probably stripping aggro because you have low armour or low health.

Since you start wearing MF at level 80 and not before, and since dungeons like AC and HotW are not level 80, I really don’t see the problem. At least until Arah or lvl 20 fractals.
Anyway, being a player who wears full MF gear, I cuncur with the people saying that MF is a statistic that shouldn’t be AT ALL in the game. I feel compelled to wear it if I want to make some money (because I hate farming for hours and the less I can farm, the better. Also, the economy is calibrated on MF now) even if I DO NOT LIKE wearing it at all, it spoils my fun by, de facto, removing me the choice on how to spec my character.
I don’t think they will ever remove it from the game, but I sincerely hope that they will.

Jasher.6580:

Bvhjdbvkjf.1987:

Sleepy.2647:

Bvhjdbvkjf.1987:

Well when you roll and Ele and are constantly the furthest away from the mobs, then you can possibly explain to me how one gets all the aggro without doing highest DPS…

Cause I sure don’t use an effing shield to draw aggro.

Aggro = Random, even if you don’t hit the boss you will get hit eventually. It’s funny to see people saying on this game “I hit like a truck because i got aggro”.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro#Gaining_and_Losing_Aggro

For your education since Aggro isn’t completely random.

When I use a staff on my Ele, stand behind warriors, guardians, and rangers (and their pets) and the mob getting hit by 3+ other sources of damage chooses to chase me even when I try to run by other player characters in an effort to dislodge them… it’s not because I hit like a truck it’s because I hit like a glass cannon. My traits and skill choices help me maintain the cannon build even when I’m in MF gear, so people who think that MF truly degrades a player’s ability to kill mobs need to try partying with me and see if they can keep aggro off me rather than just cry here that it’s not the case.

The point is that you’re not stripping aggro because of higher damage. You’re probably stripping aggro because you have low armour or low health.

Better to assume that I’m doing damage since that’s what people seem to be testing and approving putting on the wiki… I mean they tested having a shield or not so wouldn’t they have noticed the armor bit?

Have yet to hear of anyone testing or proving that low health as being something to draw aggro so if one of us is spouting nonsense is sure is more likely to be you. It’s either that or you need to get to editing the wiki to show the testing that you’ve done.

I’m done with all your nonsensical replies though, if you think that MF would drag down a fight and are willing to help test it then party up with me – otherwise all you’re proving is that you’re only willing to go as far as speculation.

Bvhjdbvkjf.1987:

speculation.

Yes, speculation is having less stats…get real. Speculation on GW2 is saying you do the highest damage in your party because you pull aggro.

I have full MF gear, i know perfectly how it is wearing it or not. The fact that people claims to have the similar stats with and without MF gear it’s funny tho…they are willing to say anything in an attempt to prove they are not greedy.

Ohoni.6057:

This is a common misconception. You’re not automatically dropping the ball in MF gear if your build is designed around your MF gear. My point on MF gear is that while it may technically be sub-optimal, running in anything but a team of 5 lolbubblestomp guardians with perfect food and potions is sub-optimal for most content in terms of run efficiency. There’s a line to draw here I think, and that line is “Does every character need to be 100% optimal to meaningfully contribute to success?”

You’re deliberately missing out on, what, 200-250 points of strength-enhancing stats? That would be around 20 levels of trait points, more than the difference between a set of blue 80 gear and a set of orange 80 gear, if I’m not mistaken. It’s more difference than eating 2 different level 80 meals. You may not be complete kitten to the rest of the party, but you’re certainly doing less than you could be for them.

You are mistaken in a couple of ways, but it’s easy to remedy.

You get the equiv of 20 stat points for each trait point, not 10.
A complete set of 80 exotic armor has 763 stat points.
A complete set of 80 blue armor has 548 stat points. (215 fewer, divided between 3 stats)
Explorer’s armor has non MF stats of 448, all offensive stats, so it’s sorta like wearing knights without the toughness.

In another game where stats only come from the gear, those 315 stat points lost to magic-find would seem like a big deal. Applying that reasoning to GW2 is mistaken.

Naked, your character has the equiv of 7900 stats. Full exotic with no MF gives you 10050 total stats, not counting runes upgrades.

Missing out on 315 potential stat points, out of that 10050 stat points represents a cost of about 3% overall stat points. You could, of course, do MF on jewels, choose of the traveler rune, etc.

I think the important thing is to notice there is a cost in performance of wearing magic find, but it’s not all that huge. Given that most of a character’s performance is NOT from gear, your choices in weapon set, utilities, and deploying skills/dodge/positioning matter so much more.

MF gear does not make you a glass pea shooter. It’s a handicap, but not all that much. This makes sense when you think of how everyone wears magic find gear while farming in the highest level zones, and we get along just fine.

mulch.2586:

I think the important thing is to notice there is a cost in performance of wearing magic find, but it’s not all that huge. Given that most of a character’s performance is NOT from gear, your choices in weapon set, utilities, and deploying skills/dodge/positioning matter so much more.

MF gear does not make you a glass pea shooter. It’s a handicap, but not all that much. This makes sense when you think of how everyone wears magic find gear while farming in the highest level zones, and we get along just fine.

The issue is thinking that because you play well you won’t make your team worse by wearing MF, that might be the case if only ONE is using MF because you will hardly notice it out of 5 players (you can still tell when there is someone slacking or using MF).

For example, to me, wearing MF or not means hitting 1/2 of what i can hit with my glass cannon…doing that just feels like i’m doing nothing for the team…i’m just there to dodge and nothing else since i’m doing way too low damage to be effective in a dungeon where you need to kill fast certain stuff or something like that.
If i had a tanky build, but i’m using MF it defeats the purpose of having a tanky build…so it beats down the same argument, you can’t make a tanky build with MF gear and you can’t make a glass cannon build with MF gear.

MF wasn’t made to use it in dungeons, sure people could wear let’s say 40-50% MF at most and still be “fine”, a little kittened but fine. The problem is using MF gear that puts you well above 100%+ and still think you are doing fine for your group…no you are not no matter how good you play you are simply getting carried.

No matter how well you play, if you could do it 2x better without MF gear then you are leeching your team.

Sleepy.2647:

mulch.2586:

I think the important thing is to notice there is a cost in performance of wearing magic find, but it’s not all that huge. Given that most of a character’s performance is NOT from gear, your choices in weapon set, utilities, and deploying skills/dodge/positioning matter so much more.

MF gear does not make you a glass pea shooter. It’s a handicap, but not all that much. This makes sense when you think of how everyone wears magic find gear while farming in the highest level zones, and we get along just fine.

The issue is thinking that because you play well you won’t make your team worse by wearing MF, that might be the case if only ONE is using MF because you will hardly notice it out of 5 players (you can still tell when there is someone slacking or using MF).

For example, to me, wearing MF or not means hitting 1/2 of what i can hit with my glass cannon…doing that just feels like i’m doing nothing for the team…i’m just there to dodge and nothing else since i’m doing way too low damage to be effective in a dungeon where you need to kill fast certain stuff or something like that.
If i had a tanky build, but i’m using MF it defeats the purpose of having a tanky build…so it beats down the same argument, you can’t make a tanky build with MF gear and you can’t make a glass cannon build with MF gear.

MF wasn’t made to use it in dungeons, sure people could wear let’s say 40-50% MF at most and still be “fine”, a little kittened but fine. The problem is using MF gear that puts you well above 100%+ and still think you are doing fine for your group…no you are not no matter how good you play you are simply getting carried.

Well Sleepy, look at the actual numbers.

Wearing explorer armor instead of valkyrie, knights, zerker, or whatever, that’s gonna cost you about 3% of your character’s total stats. 3% isn’t a little kittened or puppied or anything. Given all the other variability in gameplay, it’s probably not detectible over the RNG of your weapon and crits.

mulch.2586:

Well Sleepy, look at the actual numbers.

Wearing explorer armor instead of valkyrie, knights, zerker, or whatever, that’s gonna cost you about 3% of your character’s total stats. 3% isn’t a little kittened or puppied or anything. Given all the other variability in gameplay, it’s probably not detectible over the RNG of your weapon and crits.

Where does that 3% actually come from?
MF gear has less stats if you didn’t notice, not just the lack of a third stat.
Normal exotic chest armor = 101 main stat, explorer exotic MF chest armor = 72 main stat?
If you add to that, the lack of runes which boost your power/prec/crit as well as the completely lack of critical damage (roughtly 60%+ critical damage)…how can all that be 3% damage loss?

I have no idea where people pull these numbers from…3% difference…yeah…right. Someone who DOESN’T have MF set might actually believe you, people who has it won’t.

My difference between my own MF set and my glass cannon set = probably close to 1/2 damage loss…that’s “sightly” more than just 3%.

Bvhjdbvkjf.1987:

Jasher.6580:

Bvhjdbvkjf.1987:

Sleepy.2647:

Bvhjdbvkjf.1987:

Well when you roll and Ele and are constantly the furthest away from the mobs, then you can possibly explain to me how one gets all the aggro without doing highest DPS…

Cause I sure don’t use an effing shield to draw aggro.

Aggro = Random, even if you don’t hit the boss you will get hit eventually. It’s funny to see people saying on this game “I hit like a truck because i got aggro”.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro#Gaining_and_Losing_Aggro

For your education since Aggro isn’t completely random.

When I use a staff on my Ele, stand behind warriors, guardians, and rangers (and their pets) and the mob getting hit by 3+ other sources of damage chooses to chase me even when I try to run by other player characters in an effort to dislodge them… it’s not because I hit like a truck it’s because I hit like a glass cannon. My traits and skill choices help me maintain the cannon build even when I’m in MF gear, so people who think that MF truly degrades a player’s ability to kill mobs need to try partying with me and see if they can keep aggro off me rather than just cry here that it’s not the case.

The point is that you’re not stripping aggro because of higher damage. You’re probably stripping aggro because you have low armour or low health.

Better to assume that I’m doing damage since that’s what people seem to be testing and approving putting on the wiki… I mean they tested having a shield or not so wouldn’t they have noticed the armor bit?

Have yet to hear of anyone testing or proving that low health as being something to draw aggro so if one of us is spouting nonsense is sure is more likely to be you. It’s either that or you need to get to editing the wiki to show the testing that you’ve done.

I’m done with all your nonsensical replies though, if you think that MF would drag down a fight and are willing to help test it then party up with me – otherwise all you’re proving is that you’re only willing to go as far as speculation.

I’ve personally drawn aggro on the cave troll in AC continuously for the entire encounter without doing any damage whatsoever on the Troll.

Sleepy.2647:

mulch.2586:

Well Sleepy, look at the actual numbers.

Wearing explorer armor instead of valkyrie, knights, zerker, or whatever, that’s gonna cost you about 3% of your character’s total stats. 3% isn’t a little kittened or puppied or anything. Given all the other variability in gameplay, it’s probably not detectible over the RNG of your weapon and crits.

Where does that 3% actually come from?
MF gear has less stats if you didn’t notice, not just the lack of a third stat.
Normal exotic chest armor = 101 main stat, explorer exotic MF chest armor = 72 main stat?
If you add to that, the lack of runes which boost your power/prec/crit as well as the completely lack of critical damage (roughtly 60%+ critical damage)…how can all that be 3% damage loss?

I have no idea where people pull these numbers from…3% difference…yeah…right. Someone who DOESN’T have MF set might actually believe you, people who has it won’t.

My difference between my own MF set and my glass cannon set = probably close to 1/2 damage loss…that’s “sightly” more than just 3%.

It’s not related to magic find, but I gave an algebra-free rundown of stats here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Stats-or-why-not-to-worry-about-ascended/first#post843264

I do have a MF set, with Pirates, yaaarrr! Quite often I forget that I’m wearing it, and I take it to Orr and the Lost Shores without remorse.

If we had dps meters in the game, people would catch on quicker. Your gear stats don’t matter nearly as much as you’d think from playing other MMOs.

I haven’t done the test on this, but I wager a warrior in MF will substantially out dps a ranger, mesmer, or engineer in regular gear.

You are just assuming, if it was a 3% stats loss i wouldn’t make 1/2 less damage with MF gear.

I would like to join that test vs a MF warrior with my Ranger anytime. And you are just pointing out that wearing MF set in Orr doesn’t matter…no one said otherwise because you are playing ALONE there so you can do whatever you want…not like you need anything there to tag mobs.

The test it’s simple, 5 players doing the same dungeon that takes 1h+ with normal gear then do it again with full MF gear. People can’t just argue “Hey, i use MF gear and parties are fine” because most of the time they are the only leecher in the group.
With 5 players using MF gear no one will be “tanky”, no one will be “high DPS”…therefor dying faster and killing slower, it doesn’t take a genious to see what happens. Even if they are the best players on GW2 the difference between normal and MF gear would still be huge, killing a mob in 20 seconds instead of 10 seconds multiplied by X mobs in the dungeon, coupled with downtimes like wipes that are more likely to happen or dead/downed people more often.

Sleepy.2647:

You are just assuming, if it was a 3% stats loss i wouldn’t make 1/2 less damage with MF gear.

I would like to join that test vs a MF warrior with my Ranger anytime. And you are just pointing out that wearing MF set in Orr doesn’t matter…no one said otherwise because you are playing ALONE there so you can do whatever you want…not like you need anything there to tag mobs.

The test it’s simple, 5 players doing the same dungeon that takes 1h+ with normal gear then do it again with full MF gear. People can’t just argue “Hey, i use MF gear and parties are fine” because most of the time they are the only leecher in the group.
With 5 players using MF gear no one will be “tanky”, no one will be “high DPS”…therefor dying faster and killing slower, it doesn’t take a genious to see what happens.

Umm… you really think that’s a simple test? Maybe it doesn’t take a genius, but I think you could get it easier and more quantifiable results.

mulch.2586:

Umm… you really think that’s a simple test? Maybe it doesn’t take a genius, but I think you could get it easier and more quantifiable results.

Easier? Maybe, more accurate? No. The only reason why people may think MF is fine it’s because they NEVER been in a group with 5 MFers, put them together and let the results show up.

There are not that many selfish greedy players, it’s hard to get 3-5 on the same group tho it may happen…and when it happens you’ll wish you didn’t join that team

Magic find in dungeons is not just greedy, it’s kind of stupid too.

I think we can all agree magic find gear makes you weaker, which makes the whole dungeon harder for everyone. Maybe it’s a lot, maybe it’s only a little bit, but we can agree it does at least a tiny bit right?

But magic find only works on mob drops. It does not work on chests, it does not work on the rewards at the end, it does not get you more tokens or magnificent loot bags – it just works on random mob drops only.

Most dungeon runs (in my experience) are speedruns where as many mobs as possible are ignored and you only kill the bare minimum required.

That means you’re getting very little or even NO extra loot – that’s right, you’re making yourself weaker and you statistically probably don’t even get a single extra item per run.

So please, buy some real armor to wear in dungeons. I don’t care if you use magic find food if you insist (most people don’t seem to use ANY food) but… please. Wear real armor.

Missing out on 315 potential stat points, out of that 10050 stat points represents a cost of about 3% overall stat points. You could, of course, do MF on jewels, choose of the traveler rune, etc.

Yes, but if those points didn’t matter then you could basically do naked runs and be no worse off than anyone else. What would be the point with bothering with any armor aside from getting the maximum MF level? The game content is balanced around you having those 7900 as a bare minimum for a level 80 character (whether you’re doing level 80 content at the time or not, since scaling takes such things into account), so those 315 points are not “3% of your total,” they are about 30% of the amount that actually matters to the game at that level, the amount above the minimum expected value.

MF gear does not make you a glass pea shooter. It’s a handicap, but not all that much. This makes sense when you think of how everyone wears magic find gear while farming in the highest level zones, and we get along just fine.

But as I noted, the highest level world map zones have nothing on even level 40 dungeons in explore mode, much less on a Fractal. I can easily solo portions of Orr or Southsun in MF gear, sure, but that doesn’t mean I’m holding my own weight in a dungeon in that gear. The things to remember are that 1. world map enemies are easier to fight than dungeon enemies, and 2. When there are big world map enemies, you typically have more than five people fighting it. I mean, I’ve done the Straights Zerg or the Shore Tunnel Run before, in some cases right after hitting 80 and wearing a hodge-podge of sometimes pre-70 random pick-ups, but that doesn’t mean that you’re actually contributing in any meaningful way when your stats are so lowered.

What kills dungeons more than magic find, more than anything else, is attitude. Many of you are exhibiting pretty bad attitudes. Elitism, snobbery, and labeling galore. For those feeling left out, that another is stealing your time, or even diminishing “your” team, it’s this attitude and expectation that ruins dungeons more than anything. Because you become demanding, pushy, and quite obnoxious.

I started a party of random players last night for FotM lvl 6. Seemed straight forward enough. Done it successfully 5 times earlier. Until, our first Fractal was “Underground Facility Fractal”. I haven’t done this one before. I stated for another to take lead and talk us through it. Communications was lacking to say the least. Cap filled short tempered barking and arguments. It’s that that ruins dungeons more than anything.

Stop with all the expectations of others, focus on YOUR contributions, and have fun!

I run a full set of MF gear. I don’t have any trouble in dungeons, even in pug groups. I don’t even have too much trouble in WvW when I forget to change my gear out.

Is it easy? No, I wouldn’t call it easy. I’m not soloing the entire dungeon like I do most of the PvE area’s, but I’m also not dying every 2 minutes either.

I think some of you are over-exaggerating the stat differences in the gear, or blaming gear sets based on your experience with bad players.

I can tell you this, a bad player is a bad player no matter what they wear.

What kills dungeons more than magic find, more than anything else, is attitude. Many of you are exhibiting pretty bad attitudes. Elitism, snobbery, and labeling galore. For those feeling left out, that another is stealing your time, or even diminishing “your” team, it’s this attitude and expectation that ruins dungeons more than anything. Because you become demanding, pushy, and quite obnoxious.

I started a party of random players last night for FotM lvl 6. Seemed straight forward enough. Done it successfully 5 times earlier. Until, our first Fractal was “Underground Facility Fractal”. I haven’t done this one before. I stated for another to take lead and talk us through it. Communications was lacking to say the least. Cap filled short tempered barking and arguments. It’s that that ruins dungeons more than anything.

Stop with all the expectations of others, focus on YOUR contributions, and have fun!

All of that is perfectly valid. . . so long as you aren’t wearing MF gear.

I can tell you this, a bad player is a bad player no matter what they wear.

Perfectly true, and also a bad player in MF gear is a worse player, and a good player in MF gear is a not as good player. All we’re saying is that MF, as it currently exists, is a trait which makes you less useful to your team, whether you start out useful or not, whatever you’re capable of as a player, you will be worse for having MF gear, while at the same time, you are getting rewarded for making this selfish choice, while the rest of the group is not. It’s just a mechanic that is designed to encourage bad morals, and that should change.

plasmacutter.2709:

PopeUrban.2578:

plasmacutter.2709:

PopeUrban.2578:

How does someone other than yourself having better magic find impact your gear drops though?

ANet takes into account the ability to boost magic find, and nerfs the base rate by X% to compensate.

So, what you’re saying is that magic find, in stead of being a tradeoff for core stats just shouldn’t exist? MF is a tradeoff for core stats specifically to reward the ability to perform well without them, and to be completely honest, it is really not that difficult to acquire the gear you need in this game compared to most others.

I better understand your point now but I can’t say that I agree with it.

Fair enough. I do think magic find is bugged now, though.

When I hit 80 I bought rare grade pow/prec/magic find trinkets for +15% magic find, and since then my loot quality has actually tanked. I’m thinking of removing all MF gear again.

I noticed something similar. The fun part is trying to actually see your own total Magic Find stat – I don’t know if the stat stacks, and if so, to what degree. In theory, I managed to get over 100% Magic Find yesterday (50% Black Lion one hour buff, 26% food, 15% stacked from my Superior Sigil of Luck, 13% from my armor & rifle) and, although I kept that up for two hours, I noticed almost no real difference in what I took in. After two hours, when the second 50% buff wore off, I still had 54% Magic Find (and could sustain it, as Peach Tarts are relatively cheap to produce in stacks) with no discernable difference for an hour or so afterwards.

It’d be nice if there was some way to directly quantify the effect of Magic Find without requiring months of play and statistical analysis, but there you go.

Ok let me simplify, since everyone is just focusing on damage.

One of my toons running about in his regular gear, 15k health, 94 Crit Damage.

Same toon running about with full MF set, 11k health, 0 crit damage.

Dunno about you but 4k health is a lot more then “3% less effective”. Since I cant take as much damage, im dropping a lot more, and while im taking my little dirtnap, im not putting out any damage, and to make things worse im also taking away even more from the group dps because people are having to stop to pick me up off the ground, possibly putting everyone else at risk.

Look, I understand this game only has 10 buttons for you to push, but it is a little more deeper then that……..

@AveryFarman:

The real reason why there is so much argument on whether or not MF works or not has to do with Anets convuluted formula to determine loot drops.

I have 2 toons in full crafed exotic gear, weapons, and jewelry, and have every tradeskill at 400. and I have never spent any time in the dungeons to get it, I simply farmed Orr, in MF sets.

I can say this, running around without completely maximum MF is a waste of time, and thats what leads to the problem. In other words for MF to really be effective, you have to have every piece of gear, every rune slot, and every piece of jewelry to be dedicated to MF stat, as well as luck sigil and luck consumables to get any noticeable effectiveness out of it.

When I first started, I was running about with kitten MF, while my buddy was running about in full rare set, everything MF, and we would farm Orr for hours on end. It became very apparent I wasnt doing it right, because I could run around and get one, maybe 2 yellows to salvage, while my buddy would be getting them left and right, and I just couldnt figure it out.

Did the same thing he did, dedicated every slot I could to MF, and the results followed.

And thats why its such a BS mechanic to me, its a all or nothing stat, and once you figure that out, then you start to understand why its a bad thing for the game overall.

So you either have a smooth run at full efficiency with less drops or you have a less smooth run with more drops. Assuming equal skill, the ones who contribute less get more rewards and get carried around by the ones with proper gear, who get less rewards. Moreover, when you have proper gear, you feel you’re missing out on rewards.

Magic find on gear is one of the most stupid ideas in this game so far, and it’s not even a matter of playstyle and player preference. It just doesn’t make any sense. There is no intelligent argument to keep MF in gear. “Run with a guild” is not an argument, just a (bad) suggestion to avoid a bad thing for dungeon runners, coming from a bad idea.

MF should remain only on consumables, period.

I don’t think this makes much sense the place where MF is most useful is the Dungeon and maybe that’s the problem. Some people are trying to get that one extra gold, or that extra chance at a precursor. As long as that remain’s I’ll be using MF. However to point out I have more than one 80 and only one has MF gear specifically for grinding.

Harbard.5738:

So you either have a smooth run at full efficiency with less drops or you have a less smooth run with more drops. Assuming equal skill, the ones who contribute less get more rewards and get carried around by the ones with proper gear, who get less rewards. Moreover, when you have proper gear, you feel you’re missing out on rewards.

Magic find on gear is one of the most stupid ideas in this game so far, and it’s not even a matter of playstyle and player preference. It just doesn’t make any sense. There is no intelligent argument to keep MF in gear. “Run with a guild” is not an argument, just a (bad) suggestion to avoid a bad thing for dungeon runners, coming from a bad idea.

MF should remain only on consumables, period.

My sentiments exactly, the problem is… how would they go to compensate people for the gear already in the game, and all the recipes and items already on the trading post. Maybe they should change all the magic find into berserker gear or knights… Whatever the solution something drastic needs to be done.

Here I am, a guardian in MF gear and always the last man standing in dungeons. I also tank pretty much everything (unless someone manages to draw aggro off of me). Please enlighten me, what difference for the party would it make if I decided to switch to stat gear? Would I fulfill my role any better? I mean, you can`t get more alive than… well, alive?

Here I am, a guardian in MF gear and always the last man standing in dungeons. I also tank pretty much everything (unless someone manages to draw aggro off of me). Please enlighten me, what difference for the party would it make if I decided to switch to stat gear? Would I fulfill my role any better? I mean, you can`t get more alive than… well, alive?

No, but you could either put even more stats into defense and devote more of your skills/traits towards offense, or you could have more +offense stats, meaning that you would be helping to kill things faster. Your obligation to the group doesn’t end with just not dying.

Useless stat, since loot rewards are mostly terrible, ESPECIALLY at the expense of stats that actually matter. Just another stat to MILK people into thinking they need multiple sets of gear. HORRIBLE concept. In a game like WOW where loot is cool and you WANT it, it makes sense. In here, you buy everything for tokens anyhow. Random loot is vendor trash mostly and your odds of finding something you actually want is so low, who cares?

Josher.9612:

Useless stat, since loot rewards are mostly terrible, ESPECIALLY at the expense of stats that actually matter. Just another stat to MILK people into thinking they need multiple sets of gear. HORRIBLE concept. In a game like WOW where loot is cool and you WANT it, it makes sense. In here, you buy everything for tokens anyhow. Random loot is vendor trash mostly and your odds of finding something you actually want is so low, who cares?

Wow, you have a very similar name to mine… I digress… even if the loot was cool it wouldn’t make sense. It’s still rewarding the people who contribute less. It’s fuelling a greedy, leaching attitude.

Jasher.6580:

Josher.9612:

Useless stat, since loot rewards are mostly terrible, ESPECIALLY at the expense of stats that actually matter. Just another stat to MILK people into thinking they need multiple sets of gear. HORRIBLE concept. In a game like WOW where loot is cool and you WANT it, it makes sense. In here, you buy everything for tokens anyhow. Random loot is vendor trash mostly and your odds of finding something you actually want is so low, who cares?

Wow, you have a very similar name to mine… I digress… even if the loot was cool it wouldn’t make sense. It’s still rewarding the people who contribute less. It’s fuelling a greedy, leaching attitude.

Agreed. There is no real purpose for it. A food buff maybe, if it was even noticeable. Pop a tastycake and give yourself a 1 hr buff. Or, attach the buff to an activity like killing a veteran or Champion, which would give people a motivation to actually kill them, since their loot tables are certainly no better than anyone else. Attaching it to gear seemed like a “wouldn’t it be cool if…” idea with no real thought as to how it would effect the game.

I can see both sides of the argument here. BUT, I think instead of labeling and blaming our fellow gamer, we should stay focused on discussing the mechanic’s of it with Anet.

For example, look two post above where he said, “It’s fueling a greedy, leaching attitude.” That’s quite a glass half empty point of view and I completely disagree. Maybe, it enhances sharing and cooperation! Fore magic find is simply the BEST gear to accomplish the goal of obtain items. Which, is mostly why we’re even in a dungeon, for treasure. Now, Explorers and Knights are equal in power and precision. It’s designed to easily switch between the two sets without a DPS loss. You should be building a party with at least one in explorers, that swaps to knights if and when needed. Afterwards, share all the loot equally. That’s what Guild banks are for.

Globally, Magic Find also helps the entire economy. It helps by keeping supply higher in the Trading Post which lowers prices across the board. For the casual player, the Trading Post is the only real solution to obtaining mat’s for crafting or directly purchasing exotic items.

With the current loot drop rate bug, magic find is pointless since it lowers drop rate itself.

Wildcode, thank you for pointing that out. I thought loot drops was just my luck.

Your probably a good person to ask. Does MF stack from all gear, including the under water gear? I’ve only been running +3% MF from an Ancient Karka Shell and +3% from an exotic Harpoon gun. Do they combine???

KyleQuest.4639:

Wildcode, thank you for pointing that out. I thought loot drops was just my luck.

Your probably a good person to ask. Does MF stack from all gear, including the under water gear? I’ve only been running +3% MF from an Ancient Karka Shell and +3% from an exotic Harpoon gun. Do they combine???

In my experience, it seems that underwater equipment only applies when its in use (under the water)

For instance, I run a set of six undead runes, but underwater I noticed I was missing some bleed damage. I put another undead rune on the mask and was recieving the full set benefit underwater again.

Considering MF stacks additively, then you’d be getting the MF benefit from both items, but you would only get the extra 3% MF from your harpoon gun when underwater, and with it in your hands.

Only the “active” items stack .. so when on land the underwater items dont count. When using your rifle, the MF on your sword that you have setup in your swap does not count. When in water, the MF on your helmet does not count.