Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

I could go to ANY MMO, no exceptions, and find a dev quote that isn’t true a few months after it’s made.

Other mmo’s/mmo developers do not make such bold statements as:
“We leave the grind to other games”.(Mike O’Brien)

“…Yeah and since legendary is the same as our highest tier of gear, exotic”(Eric Flannum I believe)

“We dont want to make the same MMO everyone else is making” (I think this one was Ree?) <- With the insertion of Ascended gear, the game left a cosmetic ‘grind’ and entered progression grind…like every other MMO. Even if it is handled in a different way. GW2 is no unique snowflake.

My point is, that with most, if not every other MMO developer, they aren’t making bold statements. And they didnt come out with a doctrine in a manifesto telling you whats what. Take Wildstar…unless you can prove me wrong(which I welcome you to, I very well could be), I don’t see the wildstar making any huge statements about the core of their game. They say that the game will have housing, raids, telegraphed mechanics, difficult fights. But they aren’t saying “Our MMO will not have a grind”, or anything like that. Take TESO, they haven’t said anything like that either, to my knowledge.

I think this is why a lot of people hold arenanet more accountable for the words of their voice(rather the text on the screen) than most developers because they were so bold, confident and forthcoming with what will and wont be their game when it is released. But what we found was a lot of grey, a lot of fine line walking, a lot of clarification on what they really meant, and more and more people are realizing that these bold statements they made prior to launch were nothing more than marketing ploys and we feel “lied to”..bait and switch…let down.

MikaHR.1978:

And the only thing that changed since last year is ascended gear, amirite?

rofl

game is not gaining popularity, unless you redefined gaining popularity to mean: you sell 5% of what you sold before.

I’m totally amazed by this statement. You’re talking about something I happen to know something about, from business. Entertainment products, particularly games, sell 90% of their total in the first three months of their life. It’s pretty well known in the industry. That’s because those who REALLY want it, buy it right away, and that leaves those who aren’t interested, or might eventually become interested. Naturally that number is going to be smaller as a game’s life advances.

You can pick up any piece of software and with VERY few exceptions (maybe something like Skyrim), 90% of the sales occur in the first 3 months.

Guild Wars 2 sold 3.5 million copies more than any other MMO besides WoW, and more than WoW in the same time period. That makes it fairly successful.

What the business model is based on is how many people are spending money in the cash shop and how many people are playing the game now. Many people have come back..some of those have probably left again. But the bottom line is, if the company wasn’t making money, they couldn’t have four times working on living story content. I wouldn’t constantly be on overflow servers either.

Zeldain.5710:

The majority has spoken.

Actually, just the vocal minority. Compare the amount of people who have actually expressed a dislike of Ascended Gear and, for example, the population of a single instance of Lions Arch and you’ll realize that most people A) Don’t care or B ) Like it. Because they’re in the game enjoying themselves and, because it frustrates you(And I understand why, honestly) you are here trying to get your opinion heard.

That said, I like Ascended gear being craftable. Is it bad for WvWvW and sPVP? That’s debatable, there are many viewpoints on this. Would it be nice for casual players or players that hate grind to be able to hold their own in those arenas? Yes, it absolutely would. On the flip side you could argue that Ascended gear encourages people who only do PVP to go and play other things to get the materials to make this gear, and the same argument for Legendaries. Does it work? I don’t know, but I’m leaning towards, no, it doesn’t because those players tend to be wealthy in game for many reasons and they can buy the materials, make it and go back. But either way, it doesn’t really affect them.
Sadly, the group that seems to be getting shafted by this is that sweet spot of PvE players that also like PvP but aren’t hardcore players that have money out the ears and way too much time. Someone like me and(apparently) the people on this thread that hate Ascended gear.
Granted, I can ignore PvP and still be happy because I actually enjoy the story and world and combat system in PvE and I can use sub-exotic gear and still accomplish everything I want to.

tl;dr
Ascended gear isn’t perfect, nor is it inherently evil. Merely misguided.

Edit: Silly smiley showed up

Vayne.8563:

Yes, that’s a big difference. As big as adding meat to a vegetarian restaurant.

And claiming that it was never meant to be a vegetarian restaurant in the first place, while completely ignoring the original ads clearly stating “vegetarian: no meat inside” in big letters. You always seem to skip over that point, talking about “necessary changes” and “evolution”. It’s not only that the direction of the game has changed. It’s that Anet tries to tell us that there was no change – that the original and current design are the same (even when they contradict each other word for word).

Astralporing.1957:

Vayne.8563:

Yes, that’s a big difference. As big as adding meat to a vegetarian restaurant.

And claiming that it was never meant to be a vegetarian restaurant in the first place, while completely ignoring the original ads clearly stating “vegetarian: no meat inside” in big letters. You always seem to skip over that point, talking about “necessary changes” and “evolution”. It’s not only that the direction of the game has changed. It’s that Anet tries to tell us that there was no change – that the original and current design are the same (even when they contradict each other word for word).

People speak casually all the time. You have a line from an interview. It’s a thought bubble. It was said a couple of times, but this is something that is majorly important in your mind and was something that probably wasn’t central to the thinking process of the dev. They had a concept. They talked about the concept. It was an idea.

They didn’t print in large letters on the box that this game will have no vertical progression past 80. They didn’t print in large letters on the box that when you hit level 80 you’ll have the best gear.

That was said casually and at the time, that was probably the intention. But it wasn’t written in stone. I don’t get you people at all.

He might not even remember saying it. It’s like when I worked on retail and I said hundreds of things a day, there were times I’d contradict myself. Something I said a month ago might have been what I meant when I said it and then time moved on and my idea changed. I might well not have remembered what I said.

You seem to think people remember every word they say and never had a change of thought. But this wasn’t a restaurant built around that one thought to Colin. This was a restaurant built around that one thought to you, and players like you.

Vayne.8563:

You seem to think people remember every word they say and never had a change of thought. But this wasn’t a restaurant built around that one thought to Colin. This was a restaurant built around that one thought to you, and players like you.

As pointed out in another post: We remember what they say because they are the only developers that I can remember that make bold statements prior to launch about what their core game will be: Everyone will have the same power and grind less (to name a few). This is not the case anymore. And if the game was built around the players, then why do so many players hate the new changes and why are so many players on the fence about living story? So many people, in game and on forums, dislike or are uneasy about living story(yes there are a large amount of people that like it too), yet arenanet loves to say that LS is a great success in front of the cameras..when, it is not a slam dunk success. Sorry, but it isnt. Even if 30 or 40% of the playerbase are not sold on LS makes it not a slam dunk success.

They can’t please everyone, but they alienate more than they should.

cesmode.4257:

Vayne.8563:

You seem to think people remember every word they say and never had a change of thought. But this wasn’t a restaurant built around that one thought to Colin. This was a restaurant built around that one thought to you, and players like you.

As pointed out in another post: We remember what they say because they are the only developers that I can remember that make bold statements prior to launch about what their core game will be: Everyone will have the same power and grind less (to name a few). This is not the case anymore. And if the game was built around the players, then why do so many players hate the new changes and why are so many players on the fence about living story? So many people, in game and on forums, dislike or are uneasy about living story(yes there are a large amount of people that like it too), yet arenanet loves to say that LS is a great success in front of the cameras..when, it is not a slam dunk success. Sorry, but it isnt. Even if 30 or 40% of the playerbase are not sold on LS makes it not a slam dunk success.

They can’t please everyone, but they alienate more than they should.

They game is about the players. You’re one of the players, but there are probably a million more, give or take.

Somehow, at some point, some of the players are going to feel badly treated. It’s going to happen. Unfortunately, you’re one of them…and that’s sad. I say this genuinely. I think you’re a good guy and I wish you were happier with the game. And I understand why you’re not happier.

But you and me, we’re not the only ones here. Only time will tell if these changes are good or bad.

I just want to throw my two cents in here

I saw you mentioned that to maintain best-in-slot stats and be all that you can be, you need ascended items. That is simple logic and can’t be argued. However, you never explain how a game balanced in such a way that a party of people in rare quality gear can complete any content would require you to have best in slot gear.

You point out how ascended items and their pacing of a few months between releases and the mandatory nature of acquiring them results in a gear grind. Never mind that you can get all of the accessories over the course of the game just by completing your daily and monthly achievements, not to mention get a little boost from collecting achievement points in general. The actual time to get most of the materials required for an ascended weapon are well within the mark of a few days and could feasibly be collected in just one.

Then you point out that you haven’t done much research before you started this thread. Ascended weapons are available from a pick-your-weapon-type box that can be collected from champion loot bags and from Fractals. They are not exclusively crafted. And keep in mind that while most of the materials to make an ascended weapon are account bound, the time-gated component can be bought and sold on the Trading Post as well as the ascended inscriptions themselves.

Getting 500 crafting is mandatory to craft an ascended weapon, but you don’t even need a crafting profession to do Fractals or open a champion’s loot bag. Yeah it’s expensive. But that is the fault of the players and not that of ArenaNet’s. We determine our prices. If we truly felt as if it were unreasonable to spend that much money to get our crafting up, we simply would not be willing to play it on an international scale, and the prices for the things required to level crafting to 500 would go down.

And to be honest, on your thoughts of being left behind, you just sound like you’re asking for attention and trying to play the victim. Ascended items are there. Okay. That’s totally a thing. Nobody can argue that point. And yeah, they weren’t in the game when it came out. That means when it was introduced, we had already seen our way to getting the best gear in the game and they added more.

But we never needed to get that shiny new Ascended gear for anything other than the minigame-esque dungeon tower they added. A tower that you never need to enter, much less climb, and if you don’t want to try to get agony resistance, you just stay in difficulty levels ten and below.

We don’t need exotic quality items to get through the main storyline. In fact, we are given rare rewards from the storyline quests. And if we took those rewards and got a full set of rare gear and started doing something else? We would be just fine. It is not required, anywhere, to have the extra stats from ascended items to do anything at all.

I’m not happy with a lot of what ArenaNet has done with GW2, and I might not even like ascended gear. But to say that it’s mandatory and that they lied to you about never being required to climb a gear treadmill is just incorrect.

This is the equivalent of complaining about somebody in a F2P game getting benefits from subscribing to it. They were willing to throw their extra dedication in, and they got benefits that make the game more convenient to play, but it’s still F2P and in a lot of games you can continue to play without spending a single penny without being locked out of content. You might not be able to do it every day. You might not be able to use stuff as often or have bags as large as them. But they contributed something to the game that you don’t want to, and they got something for it that isn’t in any way shape or form mandatory.

The short version; ascended items aren’t required or mandatory in any form besides agony resistance in the completely optional high level Fractals. If you spend some gold, they don’t take two weeks. You aren’t intended to do everything by yourself in a multiplayer game. Go ahead and buy things from the other players. I don’t mean you any offense by any of what I’ve said, and I apologize if I have offended you, but you are simply incorrect. Your opinion and preference differs from facts.

EDIT: Yup! I haven’t got any clue how to use spoilers. Even the example they gave didn’t make a spoiler after copy/pasting it. Apologies for the wall of text, I can remove it and leave the shortened version if you want to maintain some order in your thread. Also fixed some spelling and made a minor adjustment to a part I considered a bit rude.

Vayne.8563:

Astralporing.1957:

Vayne.8563:

Yes, that’s a big difference. As big as adding meat to a vegetarian restaurant.

And claiming that it was never meant to be a vegetarian restaurant in the first place, while completely ignoring the original ads clearly stating “vegetarian: no meat inside” in big letters. You always seem to skip over that point, talking about “necessary changes” and “evolution”. It’s not only that the direction of the game has changed. It’s that Anet tries to tell us that there was no change – that the original and current design are the same (even when they contradict each other word for word).

People speak casually all the time. You have a line from an interview. It’s a thought bubble. It was said a couple of times, but this is something that is majorly important in your mind and was something that probably wasn’t central to the thinking process of the dev. They had a concept. They talked about the concept. It was an idea.

They didn’t print in large letters on the box that this game will have no vertical progression past 80. They didn’t print in large letters on the box that when you hit level 80 you’ll have the best gear.

That was said casually and at the time, that was probably the intention. But it wasn’t written in stone. I don’t get you people at all.

He might not even remember saying it. It’s like when I worked on retail and I said hundreds of things a day, there were times I’d contradict myself. Something I said a month ago might have been what I meant when I said it and then time moved on and my idea changed. I might well not have remembered what I said.

You seem to think people remember every word they say and never had a change of thought. But this wasn’t a restaurant built around that one thought to Colin. This was a restaurant built around that one thought to you, and players like you.

ROFL

READ….MY….SIGNATURE

Joonks.7501:

The whining is incredible. I suggest you all get jobs/lives outside of the game and then maybe you won’t feel compelled to “grind” out an ascended version of every weapon you have immediately.

“You mean I have to PLAY this game more to get a better item?! This is unacceptable, Anet is screwing me.”

To Anet: thank you for introducing some more progression I can work towards on my character, I like the fact that the materials for ascended weapons come from a variety of different game elements. I’m sorry for all the entitled children on this forum, but I’m sure you know they don’t represent the majority of players.

Thing is, you can have progression without having vertical stat progression. Imagine if you will the opportunity to work towards improving your traits, or evolving your weapon skills in some manner. It is not about the work to get ascended that is the problem in and of itself as much as it is a 180 of the horizontal progression scheme they had originally touted. Coming on the forum and calling people “entitled children” because you can’t see what the real complaint is about makes you a guess what?

One thing, I do not understand about ascended, is why?

I have not played a lot of mmos but I have played Warcraft for several years. The pve grind in that game was mainly locked behind raid bosses. When a new dungeon was released, you worked your way through the dungeon, sometimes being stuck for weeks on an encounter.

My point is that the new content and the new encounters were the true reward. The first kill was what gave you the feeling of ‘winning’. The gear that dropped was just a bonus and the gearing up afterwards, once you had all bosses on farm, served only the purpose of being ready for the next dungeon release.

The problem with that kind of game was obviously, that it was aimed at a certain type of players. Those that could not commit to login in daily or could play without interruptions for several hours. Those that did not work well as a part of a team or simply didn’t play well enough could never get bis. Your options in that game was for a large part based on other people’s evaluation of your performance and dedication.

You could not play the game anyway you wanted and get bis. You could not play alone.

Gw2 has a different mindset. Everyone can get ascended weapons as an example. Obtaining an ascended weapon has nothing to do with your performance in the game (other than endurance and flipping skills maybe). Having ascended weapons will not work as a show of factor, as it has nothing to do with personal skill, or being part of a good team.

That is also, what I don’t understand. Granted, there are most likely other mmos that have done this before, but I only know Warcraft other than gw2. In Warcraft, the grind for gear was a part of a greater goal. The grind itself was not the end goal. You grinded for a reason (or I at least felt I did).

In gw2 the grind seems to be the end goal all of a sudden. It is grind for the sake of the grind. It is the grind to get more damage and more stats, but for what exactly?

If it were not because of wvw and the obvious disadvantage exotic vs ascended, I would fail to see any purpose at all. The grand plan is hidden for me. In Warcraft, I knew that I needed the gear to beat the next encounter as efficiently as possible. In gw2, I cannot figure out what the plan is.
If I knew ascended gear was implemented because new pve dungeons would be added, that would have a certain need for ascended gear, then maybe I would understand more what I was working towards. Maybe I would know what weapon set I should give highest priority. (I would still think ascended is a bad idea though^^)

Nevertheless, I don’t know. Is the grind itself the new end goal?
It sure feels that way.

Anet threw their original design philosophy out the window, and there’s little anyone can do about that. Everyone knows it happened, even though the Anet PR reps carefully evade the subject.

I agree that the introduction of yet another gear tier is not high on my list of game updates. I have said it was a bad idea with the introduction of fractals, and I still think the same way today. At the start, last year in August, I was planning on having a couple main-ish characters down the road (depending on what I liked best in PvE, PvP and WvW), not one favourite and a couple of alts. Right now I have abandoned that idea, and I have in fact one main character (my warrior), for PvE.

I stopped playing WvW, and haven’t even touched PvP, mainly because I spend most of my playing time either doing stuff with my guild, or pursuing gear for my warrior. But also because I don’t WvW with my warrior, but with my elementalist. She has full exotic gear, and an ascended amulet (at least laurels is something I have in abundance, for now). I doubt I’ll have the time to gather full ascended equipment for her.

Am I disappointed? Yes, Guild Wars 2 did not live up to be what was promised at the start.
Will I stop playing? No, I still enjoy playing with guildies, slowly progressing towards a “finished” ascended warrior. Besides, I’ve already bought the game, I might as well use it to the fullest.
Will I ever spend a dime in the gem shop? No, I don’t support Anet’s current course of action, and gold to gem conversion is enough to fill all of my gem needs (which is very little).

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

And the only thing that changed since last year is ascended gear, amirite?

rofl

game is not gaining popularity, unless you redefined gaining popularity to mean: you sell 5% of what you sold before.

I’m totally amazed by this statement. You’re talking about something I happen to know something about, from business. Entertainment products, particularly games, sell 90% of their total in the first three months of their life. It’s pretty well known in the industry. That’s because those who REALLY want it, buy it right away, and that leaves those who aren’t interested, or might eventually become interested. Naturally that number is going to be smaller as a game’s life advances.

You can pick up any piece of software and with VERY few exceptions (maybe something like Skyrim), 90% of the sales occur in the first 3 months.

Guild Wars 2 sold 3.5 million copies more than any other MMO besides WoW, and more than WoW in the same time period. That makes it fairly successful.

What the business model is based on is how many people are spending money in the cash shop and how many people are playing the game now. Many people have come back..some of those have probably left again. But the bottom line is, if the company wasn’t making money, they couldn’t have four times working on living story content. I wouldn’t constantly be on overflow servers either.

You see, youre not making any sense, especially related to what you quoted.

Next time concentrate on what you quote instead of ranting and PR.

My experience with gaming has to do with being a game buyer for a computer store. I know very well how well games sell. Maybe you should do some research. It’s interesting stuff. You’d quickly learn that my figures are accurate.

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

And the only thing that changed since last year is ascended gear, amirite?

rofl

game is not gaining popularity, unless you redefined gaining popularity to mean: you sell 5% of what you sold before.

I’m totally amazed by this statement. You’re talking about something I happen to know something about, from business. Entertainment products, particularly games, sell 90% of their total in the first three months of their life. It’s pretty well known in the industry. That’s because those who REALLY want it, buy it right away, and that leaves those who aren’t interested, or might eventually become interested. Naturally that number is going to be smaller as a game’s life advances.

You can pick up any piece of software and with VERY few exceptions (maybe something like Skyrim), 90% of the sales occur in the first 3 months.

Guild Wars 2 sold 3.5 million copies more than any other MMO besides WoW, and more than WoW in the same time period. That makes it fairly successful.

What the business model is based on is how many people are spending money in the cash shop and how many people are playing the game now. Many people have come back..some of those have probably left again. But the bottom line is, if the company wasn’t making money, they couldn’t have four times working on living story content. I wouldn’t constantly be on overflow servers either.

You see, youre not making any sense, especially related to what you quoted.

Next time concentrate on what you quote instead of ranting and PR.

My experience with gaming has to do with being a game buyer for a computer store. I know very well how well games sell. Maybe you should do some research. It’s interesting stuff. You’d quickly learn that my figures are accurate.

Uh-huh rofl

When you redefine “popularity”, sure, anything can stick.

But again, i like how you, on your own accord…dismiss your own claims

And again, concentrate on what you quote, since you STILL havent adressed what you quoted back then one may call that a spin

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

And the only thing that changed since last year is ascended gear, amirite?

rofl

game is not gaining popularity, unless you redefined gaining popularity to mean: you sell 5% of what you sold before.

I’m totally amazed by this statement. You’re talking about something I happen to know something about, from business. Entertainment products, particularly games, sell 90% of their total in the first three months of their life. It’s pretty well known in the industry. That’s because those who REALLY want it, buy it right away, and that leaves those who aren’t interested, or might eventually become interested. Naturally that number is going to be smaller as a game’s life advances.

You can pick up any piece of software and with VERY few exceptions (maybe something like Skyrim), 90% of the sales occur in the first 3 months.

Guild Wars 2 sold 3.5 million copies more than any other MMO besides WoW, and more than WoW in the same time period. That makes it fairly successful.

What the business model is based on is how many people are spending money in the cash shop and how many people are playing the game now. Many people have come back..some of those have probably left again. But the bottom line is, if the company wasn’t making money, they couldn’t have four times working on living story content. I wouldn’t constantly be on overflow servers either.

You see, youre not making any sense, especially related to what you quoted.

Next time concentrate on what you quote instead of ranting and PR.

My experience with gaming has to do with being a game buyer for a computer store. I know very well how well games sell. Maybe you should do some research. It’s interesting stuff. You’d quickly learn that my figures are accurate.

Uh-huh rofl

When you redefine “popularity”, sure, anything can stick.

But again, i like how you, on your own accord…dismiss your own claims

And again, concentrate on what you quote, since you STILL havent adressed what you quoted back then one may call that a spin

I don’t understand a word you’ve said. Maybe in your desire to insult me, you dropped a decimal place or something. You should recheck your calculations maybe.

TL;DR:

Vayne (V): GW2 is gaining popularity
MikaHR (M): no it isnt
V: long diatribe about irrelevant stuff aka spin
M: thats irrelevant to the quote
V: i haz teh numberz
M: still irrelevant
V: kitten , spin didnt work

there you go

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

And the only thing that changed since last year is ascended gear, amirite?

rofl

game is not gaining popularity, unless you redefined gaining popularity to mean: you sell 5% of what you sold before.

I’m totally amazed by this statement. You’re talking about something I happen to know something about, from business. Entertainment products, particularly games, sell 90% of their total in the first three months of their life. It’s pretty well known in the industry. That’s because those who REALLY want it, buy it right away, and that leaves those who aren’t interested, or might eventually become interested. Naturally that number is going to be smaller as a game’s life advances.

You can pick up any piece of software and with VERY few exceptions (maybe something like Skyrim), 90% of the sales occur in the first 3 months.

Guild Wars 2 sold 3.5 million copies more than any other MMO besides WoW, and more than WoW in the same time period. That makes it fairly successful.

What the business model is based on is how many people are spending money in the cash shop and how many people are playing the game now. Many people have come back..some of those have probably left again. But the bottom line is, if the company wasn’t making money, they couldn’t have four times working on living story content. I wouldn’t constantly be on overflow servers either.

You see, youre not making any sense, especially related to what you quoted.

Next time concentrate on what you quote instead of ranting and PR.

My experience with gaming has to do with being a game buyer for a computer store. I know very well how well games sell. Maybe you should do some research. It’s interesting stuff. You’d quickly learn that my figures are accurate.

Uh-huh rofl

When you redefine “popularity”, sure, anything can stick.

But again, i like how you, on your own accord…dismiss your own claims

And again, concentrate on what you quote, since you STILL havent adressed what you quoted back then one may call that a spin

I don’t understand a word you’ve said. Maybe in your desire to insult me, you dropped a decimal place or something. You should recheck your calculations maybe.

TL;DR:

Vayne (V): GW2 is gaining popularity
MikaHR (M): no it isnt
V: long diatribe about irrelevant stuff aka spin
M: thats irrelevant to the quote
V: i haz teh numberz
M: still irrelevant
V: kitten , spin didnt work

there you go

Ah, I see. So you really don’t get it.

First of all, I never said the game was gaining in popularity. That’s your words not mine. I said the game is busier now than it was back in November. That’s a bit different.

A lot of people who used to play have come back to the game. I don’t know how many or what percentage. I do know that I’m on overflow servers far more than I used to be.

What I am saying, that is completely pertinent is that game sales are NOT the way to tell if a game is popular or not, particularly after the first three months. The only real way in a game like Guild Wars 2 to tell whether it’s more or less popular is concurrency numbers. According to Arena Net concurrency has been going up steadily since Christmas. That’s obvious a relative vague statement.

But citing falling sales for a game to try to say how popular it is is definitely a form of spin.

Vayne.8563:

First of all, I never said the game was gaining in popularity. That’s your words not mine. I said the game is busier now than it was back in November. That’s a bit different.

Oh really?

Vayne.8563:

In the meantime, I think this game is gaining popularity, not losing it.

You know, your posts look more and more like the ANet PR posts.

Vayne.8563:

First of all, I never said the game was gaining in popularity.

Nuh-huh

Vayne.8563:

In the meantime, I think this game is gaining popularity, not losing it.

Nough said.

Exactly like ANnet PR.

Read my signature.

Hmmm – just to elaborate on my previous post as I felt it wasn’t complete, but rl demanded my attention for a while.

The point I was trying to make, is that if the Gw2 ascended items are there, just because they are there. Just because some people desire the grind or just because a-net had planned for them all along (but conveniently forgot to tell anyone about that until recently).

If the grand plan is not to add dungeons and new content scaled towards this ascended gear along the way, then I will choose to only craft weapons for wvw and I can live with that regardless of the (booooooring) cafting involved. I do not think ascended gear is a good idea, but I can live with it.

However, if the ascended gear is leaning towards content and dungeons where ascended gear will be a huge advantage, then I will have put myself in a disadvantage by focusing on wvw weapons and stats.

I would really like to know what the plan is.

If it’s adding gear grind and gear progression and content that requires said gear progression, then I think a lot of games do this better, because you get rewarded through doing new content rather than repeating the old. I personally have played after that model for too long and have no interest of going back to that again, whether it is through raids, solo, new or old content.

I really hope that is not the case, but I do not know. No one other than the very silent a-net knows. I can only speculate.

I doubt I am the only one that chose gw2, because I expected a game that was not created with the vision of gear grind. Ascended gear in it’s current form is not a complete deal breaker for me, but if they walk a little further down that road, then it will be.

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

And the only thing that changed since last year is ascended gear, amirite?

rofl

game is not gaining popularity, unless you redefined gaining popularity to mean: you sell 5% of what you sold before.

I’m totally amazed by this statement. You’re talking about something I happen to know something about, from business. Entertainment products, particularly games, sell 90% of their total in the first three months of their life. It’s pretty well known in the industry. That’s because those who REALLY want it, buy it right away, and that leaves those who aren’t interested, or might eventually become interested. Naturally that number is going to be smaller as a game’s life advances.

You can pick up any piece of software and with VERY few exceptions (maybe something like Skyrim), 90% of the sales occur in the first 3 months.

Guild Wars 2 sold 3.5 million copies more than any other MMO besides WoW, and more than WoW in the same time period. That makes it fairly successful.

What the business model is based on is how many people are spending money in the cash shop and how many people are playing the game now. Many people have come back..some of those have probably left again. But the bottom line is, if the company wasn’t making money, they couldn’t have four times working on living story content. I wouldn’t constantly be on overflow servers either.

You see, youre not making any sense, especially related to what you quoted.

Next time concentrate on what you quote instead of ranting and PR.

My experience with gaming has to do with being a game buyer for a computer store. I know very well how well games sell. Maybe you should do some research. It’s interesting stuff. You’d quickly learn that my figures are accurate.

Uh-huh rofl

When you redefine “popularity”, sure, anything can stick.

But again, i like how you, on your own accord…dismiss your own claims

And again, concentrate on what you quote, since you STILL havent adressed what you quoted back then one may call that a spin

I don’t understand a word you’ve said. Maybe in your desire to insult me, you dropped a decimal place or something. You should recheck your calculations maybe.

TL;DR:

Vayne (V): GW2 is gaining popularity
MikaHR (M): no it isnt
V: long diatribe about irrelevant stuff aka spin
M: thats irrelevant to the quote
V: i haz teh numberz
M: still irrelevant
V: kitten , spin didnt work

there you go

Ah, I see. So you really don’t get it.

First of all, I never said the game was gaining in popularity. That’s your words not mine. I said the game is busier now than it was back in November. That’s a bit different.

A lot of people who used to play have come back to the game. I don’t know how many or what percentage. I do know that I’m on overflow servers far more than I used to be.

What I am saying, that is completely pertinent is that game sales are NOT the way to tell if a game is popular or not, particularly after the first three months. The only real way in a game like Guild Wars 2 to tell whether it’s more or less popular is concurrency numbers. According to Arena Net concurrency has been going up steadily since Christmas. That’s obvious a relative vague statement.

But citing falling sales for a game to try to say how popular it is is definitely a form of spin.

Well, you could also argue that more people are leaving the game these days due to the direction it has taken in the last month or two. And you are on overflow maps because arenanet funnels 90% of the players to one or two maps. You aren’t on overflow because Timberline Falls is such an awsome zone for people to run around and complete content(it is a good zone though).

Artificial population inflation when you hit overflows on world maps.

Reesha.7901:

Hmmm – just to elaborate on my previous post as I felt it wasn’t complete, but rl demanded my attention for a while.

The point I was trying to make, is that if the Gw2 ascended items are there, just because they are there. Just because some people desire the grind or just because a-net had planned for them all along (but conveniently forgot to tell anyone about that until recently).

If the grand plan is not to add dungeons and new content scaled towards this ascended gear along the way, then I will choose to only craft weapons for wvw and I can live with that regardless of the (booooooring) cafting involved. I do not think ascended gear is a good idea, but I can live with it.

However, if the ascended gear is leaning towards content and dungeons where ascended gear will be a huge advantage, then I will have put myself in a disadvantage by focusing on wvw weapons and stats.

I would really like to know what the plan is.

If it’s adding gear grind and gear progression and content that requires said gear progression, then I think a lot of games do this better, because you get rewarded through doing new content rather than repeating the old. I personally have played after that model for too long and have no interest of going back to that again, whether it is through raids, solo, new or old content.

I really hope that is not the case, but I do not know. No one other than the very silent a-net knows. I can only speculate.

I doubt I am the only one that chose gw2, because I expected a game that was not created with the vision of gear grind. Ascended gear in it’s current form is not a complete deal breaker for me, but if they walk a little further down that road, then it will be.

Its inevitable, because even with exotic some of their design starts to crack, and adding all ascended stats means even more stuff will crack because content was tuned for greens.

At some point game just cannot function properly when stats are weighted so much to one side (players in this case).

@Darkonus

Thank you for posting! I’m not offended at all by anything you have said and I completely understand.

I suppose I should clarify on some points.

~On the matter of Ascended gear being ‘required’/‘needed’~

~Attaining the Ascended items & more on Ascended being ‘required’/‘needed’~

-Continued-

@Darkonus (Continued from my post above)

~Attaining the Ascended items & more on Ascended being ‘required’/‘needed’~ Cont.

~On my thoughts/feelings~

If you look at the total increase in stats… it’s what, a total of 5% if you have all the ascended items? Seeing as most of them are basically given to you over time (ascended gear via Laurels), most players should not have an issue getting at least a few pieces of ascended gear, giving someone with an ascended weapon a very, very slight advantage… it’ll mostly be psychological for those who need it.

It’s also just something to strive for over time.. there really aren’t a huge amount of middle-term goals in this game. It either takes a few hours to get something, or a hundred. They are trying to fill that gap it would seem.

For example, I just got my thief to level 80 and had him fully geared in the exotics I wanted for him and ascended neck piece in less than a couple hours from leveling. Granted, I’d done a lot of the work on another char, but it was mostly just farting around in dungeons and WvW. No real farming… it just seemed overly easy. At least now I can look on the horizon and be like “Ok, there is that goal if I choose to do it”.

epandrsn.5126:

If you look at the total increase in stats… it’s what, a total of 5% if you have all the ascended items? Seeing as most of them are basically given to you over time (ascended gear via Laurels), most players should not have an issue getting at least a few pieces of ascended gear, giving someone with an ascended weapon a very, very slight advantage… it’ll mostly be psychological for those who need it.

It’s also just something to strive for over time.. there really aren’t a huge amount of middle-term goals in this game. It either takes a few hours to get something, or a hundred. They are trying to fill that gap it would seem.

If you want me to spend two weeks doing something, find something I’d like doing for two weeks. Don’t dangle a carrot in front of me and say “Hey donkey, run around Orr for two weeks and I’ll give you this”

Edit: and since I’ve spend 10 months playing this game it’s not an impossible task.

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

First of all, I never said the game was gaining in popularity.

Nuh-huh

Vayne.8563:

In the meantime, I think this game is gaining popularity, not losing it.

Nough said.

Exactly like ANnet PR.

Read my signature.

Ah there we go. I had to go back to find the quote. Nothing like taking something said out of context. We were talking about something very specific when I said that. You have to take the whole quote, including what I was responding to.

Now, it was your claim (with no basis whatsoever in fact) that the game is losing popularity based on decisions made recently by Anet. And it was my claim that over that same period in time, I was experiencing more people in world, thus, it was gaining in popularity. I’ve maintained the game was gaining in popularity since last November.

But in reality, it was parroting your words back at you, because you have absolutely no proof it’s losing popularity. None whatsoever. You have a opinion, you state it as fact, you bait people to contradict you then bring up their statements out of context later and call it spin.

With regards to recent changes, it is my belief there are more people playing, not less. Is it gaining in popularity overall since launch? No, that I don’t think so.

I’ve said in other places, I think Guild Wars 2 is becoming a niche game, and within that niche more people are picking it up. Therefore, I’m experiencing more people in game, relative to how many people I used to see in game.

No one knows if the game is gaining or losing subscribers except ANet. To speculate on it is a waste of time. Can’t we go back to wasting time whining about ascended gear or whining about whining about ascended gear?

Edit: Also, Vayne, I think TC is a bit unique in terms of servers. A lot of people guest over there to PvE. I checked several times this weekend and Orr was dead on CD.

TooBz.3065:

No one knows if the game is gaining or losing subscribers except ANet. To speculate on it is a waste of time. Can’t we go back to wasting time whining about ascended gear or whining about whining about ascended gear?

Edit: Also, Vayne, I think TC is a bit unique in terms of servers. A lot of people guest over there to PvE. I checked several times this weekend and Orr was dead on CD.

You may be right about TC being unique, because a lot of people guest to it. But then, if everyone is guesting to it, and there are ten, fifteen overflow servers, then there’s still a lot of people playing. I’ve been in a group with five guildies that were all on different overflows. Someone must be playing.

As for knowing if the game is gaining or losing subscribers, well we do know that. It’s neither gaining nor losing, because there are no subscribers. And that’s where the problem lies. In WoW, Blizzard uses subscriber numbers to indicate the game’s health (even though they game that by using people who bought say the annual passport, even if they’re not longer logging in as active), while Guild Wars 2 has to depend on income and concurrency numbers.

You’re right, no one really knows if the game is doing better or not. Not me and not the naysayers.

Vayne.8563:

TooBz.3065:

No one knows if the game is gaining or losing subscribers except ANet. To speculate on it is a waste of time. Can’t we go back to wasting time whining about ascended gear or whining about whining about ascended gear?

Edit: Also, Vayne, I think TC is a bit unique in terms of servers. A lot of people guest over there to PvE. I checked several times this weekend and Orr was dead on CD.

You may be right about TC being unique, because a lot of people guest to it. But then, if everyone is guesting to it, and there are ten, fifteen overflow servers, then there’s still a lot of people playing. I’ve been in a group with five guildies that were all on different overflows. Someone must be playing.

As for knowing if the game is gaining or losing subscribers, well we do know that. It’s neither gaining nor losing, because there are no subscribers. And that’s where the problem lies. In WoW, Blizzard uses subscriber numbers to indicate the game’s health (even though they game that by using people who bought say the annual passport, even if they’re not longer logging in as active), while Guild Wars 2 has to depend on income and concurrency numbers.

You’re right, no one really knows if the game is doing better or not. Not me and not the naysayers.

Yeah, poor choice of words, sorry. I just meant that we can’t tell how it’s doing. I’ve noticed that it’s much busier in general lately. But I don’t know if there were really that many people farming COF who are now displaced. Farming Scarlet or working on Ascended gear. Time will tell.

Oh, one small correction, we can tell based on the Gems to Gold ratio that many people are using Gems to get gold. That may indicate a certain robustness.

I find the ascended weapons to be short sighted and kitten. It’s not grindy enough to give me a power boost like other MMOs but it’s not easy enough to deck out my alts in full ascended gear either. So it really doesn’t accomplish anything IMO. I got my bow after one week, but that’s from play GW2 like it’s a job. (e.g. play with an event web site on my 2nd monitor to hit all the events, repeat temple runs with all my alts and harvest all the nodes with my alts.)

It’s a problem of expectations. I expect to be rewarded for doing something boring in other games. e.g. I grind for better gear to let me kill mobs more easily/lvl quicker/two shot people etc. You don’t get this with GW2.

At the same time, when you play a game with supposed horizontal progression you expect to be able to play alts and deck them out easily. You don’t get this with GW2 either.

This ascended stuff serves absolutely no purpose. It’s not hardcore enough to make it worth your while but repetitive and annoying enough that you likely won’t do it for all your alts.

Figure out what you want and go with it Anet. It’s completely half-455sed right now.

There are a few things I dont see eye to eye on in Guild Wars 2.

Such as:

Personal Story was supposed to impact how your character was treated and acted. Ive got 8 level 80 Asurans (meaning I have done all their stories) and 1 Charr 80. As far as speaking abouy Asurans, the personal story doeant impact anything or if it does, very slightly.

With regards to Ascended and Legendaries, the Ascended system should have been how Legendaries are made to be honest. Adding to the treadmill wasnt needed, but since I personally dont know where they got their statistics of why we needed to advance weapon tiers, I can only Imagine the true facts of why. I just hope this is going to be it but truth be told armor should follow soon, the crazier question will be jeweler and jewelry and what will happen to the value of laurels and guild comms. Remember, every change is another change is another change and another.

Living Story, it bothers me that the vote was supposedly the first impactful story changing mechanism, it brought out our evilness as a community, heck, it even had me and my brother at opposite ends of the spectrum, In a very minor mild form, I now can understand some feelings of the civil war in the US.

Fun? Zergs are not fun, expecially using my computer as a stress test for scarlet, which by the way is now set graphics wise to best performance rather then the real beauty of best appearance. I got booted many times at end of each event, struggled to get back in gor rewards but missed out on them due to lockouts of zones being overburderened. So I can only imagine Tequatl is going to punish me for playong and trying to have fun, So I get to avoid an encounter even though my PC is the high end of system requirements.

Flame and Frost dungeon was a great example of what should be happening, although I know many will complain thakittens not soloable, but everything about the personal story leads up to the character progression as informally telling the player that they cant be anti-social now that they are level 80.

The Guantlet was a neat change, but I believe it would have been better suited as a solo dungeon per Tier to allieviate some lag issues. It could have been just like the home instance is, where you challenge each boss, etc. I know its a mute point, but from the past can we ever aspire to assist the present in changing the future.

I have faith in Arena Net, not because of being a fanboi, but because I understand a few things.

A. Money doesnt grow on trees, it grows in hands, which are everchanging hands, far greater then seasons. Yes, your a business, we get it, you want to grab that money while the grabbing is good, but just remember, after the zerg packs it up in lieu of the next big promises from another developer, you will still have some players that love you, but dont burn the candle at both ends.

B. You a service, you are supposed to serve your clients, sure, you may have the creative rights and controls and may feel its a suitable service, but if your patrons arent happy, they will drop you faster then a right to work state does before an employee is eligible for healthcare.

C. The baby that cries first, gets the milk. This is tough, because as Evon and Ellen showed us, people of both sides will cry over the most kitten of things. I surely dont envy any service that has to provide for people and demographics.

D. Stick to your guns. Just because the other guys guns look prettier, doesnt mean they shoot, doesnt mean they shoot bullets either. A gun is useless if it doesnt fire, it might save you 50% of the time having a gun wothout bullets, 20% can result in a self inflicted injury, 5% means Game Over. So if your thinking about continuing the trend of toying around with an unloaded gun, Id strongly advise 2 things, dont play with guns, and if your gonna use a gun, make sure its loaded. (That was a metaphor describing hlw its felt over the coarse of the past year in case you missed it). Leave Russian Roulette to the pros, thanks.

RNG sucks, it would nice if we could turn in exotics for a precursor ticket, then trade in 1000 tickets for one handers and 2000 tickets for 2 handers. To me, this would be the fairbway of doing it. But we will see.

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

jayb.1329:

so….you want the strongest gear possible and you want it to be easy to get.

sounds like the typical complainer on these forums

Read my signature.

If I’d had time, I’d make a signature that says all MMOs evolve and change and Guild Wars 2 is no exception.

I could go to ANY MMO, no exceptions, and find a dev quote that isn’t true a few months after it’s made.

Your signature is meaningless.

So, everyone bullkittens so its ok for ANet to bullkitten too.

rofl

And yes, read my signature.

And gear treadmill is not evolution its devolution.

No, everyone doesn’t bullkitten. Every business reacts to the needs/desires of the largest share of their customer base…of they’re out of business before you know it.

If I opened up a vegetarian restaurant and I had 10 good customers and on one else, I’d go out of buiness. If I started serving meat, I’d lose those 10 good customers. They’d get mad at me, they’d curse me, they’d say I betrayed them, they say I lied.

Of course, those ten good customers weren’t about to volunteer to pay all my bills. So the can say anything they like and from their perspective it would be true, if ungenerous. From my perspective, I’d have a viable business, that was there for other people who might enjoy my style of cooking.

You say this as if it’s “sell out of bust”. The fact that Guild Wars did well enough to warrant a sequel is proof selling out isn’t the only way to stave off financial ruin. And you make it sound as if maximum profitability should always dictate game development. That’s the exact kind of thinking that lead to a half decade (or more) of soulless World of Warcraft clones.

I’m not going to crucify ArenaNet for selling out – and let’s be clear here, that’s exactly what they did – but that doesn’t mean I’m not extremely disappointed they sold their vision for this game down the river for the sake of appeasing a crowd of gamers that very well could end up jumping to the next flashy AAA MMO the moment one’s released.

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

“Vegan meal” with “a bit of meat” in it is not vegan meal any more.

Your spin aint working.

Ascended gear probably did more damage than good, and in the long run it will deal even more damage.

When you’re done with your crystal ball, you must lend it to me. Because I think you’re wrong. I think ascended gear will be a storm in a tea cup.

A year ago people on these forums said the game is dying. That’s less true now than it is then. Maybe Anet knows something you don’t. Maybe what they’re doing is actually working for them.

It may not be working for you, which is another issue altogether.

In the meantime, I think this game is gaining popularity, not losing it.

We don’t need a crystal ball, we have reason and logic. At some point the people who demanded “something to do” grew bored after attaining what was then the BiS gear (exotics). ArenaNet, fearing these players would stop playing the game, added a new tier of BiS gear (ascended) for these players to work towards.

They’re now saying this is the final tier of gear they wish to add. But what happens when that same group of people has attained the new BiS gear for all of their characters? Are they going to be content upon reaching that plateau where before they screamed they were bored? Or are they again going to demand “something to do”? And if they demand more “somethings to do”, is ArenaNet going to stand firm and say “this far, no further”? Or will they cave as they did last time?

Forget crystal balls…what does your gut tell you will happen?

darkace.8925:

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

Vayne.8563:

MikaHR.1978:

jayb.1329:

so….you want the strongest gear possible and you want it to be easy to get.

sounds like the typical complainer on these forums

Read my signature.

If I’d had time, I’d make a signature that says all MMOs evolve and change and Guild Wars 2 is no exception.

I could go to ANY MMO, no exceptions, and find a dev quote that isn’t true a few months after it’s made.

Your signature is meaningless.

So, everyone bullkittens so its ok for ANet to bullkitten too.

rofl

And yes, read my signature.

And gear treadmill is not evolution its devolution.

No, everyone doesn’t bullkitten. Every business reacts to the needs/desires of the largest share of their customer base…of they’re out of business before you know it.

If I opened up a vegetarian restaurant and I had 10 good customers and on one else, I’d go out of buiness. If I started serving meat, I’d lose those 10 good customers. They’d get mad at me, they’d curse me, they’d say I betrayed them, they say I lied.

Of course, those ten good customers weren’t about to volunteer to pay all my bills. So the can say anything they like and from their perspective it would be true, if ungenerous. From my perspective, I’d have a viable business, that was there for other people who might enjoy my style of cooking.

You say this as if it’s “sell out of bust”. The fact that Guild Wars did well enough to warrant a sequel is proof selling out isn’t the only way to stave off financial ruin. And you make it sound as if maximum profitability should always dictate game development. That’s the exact kind of thinking that lead to a half decade (or more) of soulless World of Warcraft clones.

I’m not going to crucify ArenaNet for selling out – and let’s be clear here, that’s exactly what they did – but that doesn’t mean I’m not extremely disappointed they sold their vision for this game down the river for the sake of appeasing a crowd of gamers that very well could end up jumping to the next flashy AAA MMO the moment one’s released.

One, I don’t see compromise as selling out. If this was a full on gear grind (and I don’t see it that way), you’d be right. But it’s a compromise. Anet tried to please everyone and probably didn’t end up pleasing anyone..but I see why they did it.

Secondly, Guild War 1 can’t be compared. It was 8 years ago. The amount of competition today, the free to play games, it’s just not a congruent situation. Guild Wars 1 had a programming team of 50 programmer.s Guild Wars 2 has to support 300, in larger headquarters.

Saying something was done 8 years ago in this market means nothing to what can be achieved today. With the amount of competition out there now, Guild Wars 1 would have had like six guys playing.

I’d probably have been one of them, but it would have never stood the test of time. It was too cerebral for the masses.

Vayne.8563:

Yes, that’s a big difference. As big as adding meat to a vegetarian restaurant.

Anet saw the uptake of legendaries wasn’t working. They saw what people were saying. Believe it or not, they have many ways to judge who is doing what. My son, as I’ve said before, got his legendary and stopped playing. Now that ascended is back so is he, working on his ascended. For every guy like me, there’s a guy like him.

Anet made a decision before the game launched, saw that decision wasn’t quite working as they intended and changed the way they did business, kitten ing off the people who bought the game thinking it would be one way in the process. Anet did the same thing as adding meat to a vegetarian restaurant. There’s no real difference here.

What Anet tried to do was compromise. Not everyone is happy with the compromise and some people can’t live with it, but I’m wagering the bulk of players can….certainly the bulk of players that are playing now.

Which leaves a small, vocal disenfranchised group who aren’t going to stop complaining until the game loses money. There’s a whole lot of people playing the game right now. I’m not sure that would be true if ascended gear hadn’t been introduced.

The difference to me is the more recent claim that they never intended what we were told was the intention back then. I expect companies to adapt to evolving circumstances and difficulties. I can respect it even if the evolution does not play to my own interests. I do not respect a decision to treakittens customers as if they were idiots by expecting us to buy the claim that they never intended X when they told us that X was the intention when they were trying to sell us on the game.

The decision to abandon the original declared intent in this case would be much more palatable, to me at least, if Anet would man up and just admit that they were doing so rather than trying to claim that the original intent never existed.

I do want to clarify that I am not in any way attempting an attack against you for your stance on this matter. I respect your right to have and express your opinion.

I think ANet shifted their target demographic a little on the no grind to the full grind spectrum. The idea being how much grind someone whats is one bell curve and how much grind they will tolerate is another bell curve. ANet just decided to increase the grind to get / keep a bigger audience. Figuring that they would keep / gain more than they lose.

For an MMO the grind may be pretty light, but if you are one of the ones who suddenly found your game become too grindy for you it stinks.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

Yes, that’s a big difference. As big as adding meat to a vegetarian restaurant.

Anet saw the uptake of legendaries wasn’t working. They saw what people were saying. Believe it or not, they have many ways to judge who is doing what. My son, as I’ve said before, got his legendary and stopped playing. Now that ascended is back so is he, working on his ascended. For every guy like me, there’s a guy like him.

Anet made a decision before the game launched, saw that decision wasn’t quite working as they intended and changed the way they did business, kitten ing off the people who bought the game thinking it would be one way in the process. Anet did the same thing as adding meat to a vegetarian restaurant. There’s no real difference here.

What Anet tried to do was compromise. Not everyone is happy with the compromise and some people can’t live with it, but I’m wagering the bulk of players can….certainly the bulk of players that are playing now.

Which leaves a small, vocal disenfranchised group who aren’t going to stop complaining until the game loses money. There’s a whole lot of people playing the game right now. I’m not sure that would be true if ascended gear hadn’t been introduced.

The difference to me is the more recent claim that they never intended what we were told was the intention back then. I expect companies to adapt to evolving circumstances and difficulties. I can respect it even if the evolution does not play to my own interests. I do not respect a decision to treakittens customers as if they were idiots by expecting us to buy the claim that they never intended X when they told us that X was the intention when they were trying to sell us on the game.

The decision to abandon the original declared intent in this case would be much more palatable, to me at least, if Anet would man up and just admit that they were doing so rather than trying to claim that the original intent never existed.

I do want to clarify that I am not in any way attempting an attack against you for your stance on this matter. I respect your right to have and express your opinion.

I still say people are taking what was said too far. They stated an intention in interviews a couple of times, a year before the game launched. People burned these words into their brains. I’m not even convinced people remember what they said.

Have you ever been to a convention (which is where many of these interviews occurred). I have. I’ve sat on panels and numerous conventions.

If you asked me what I said even a couple of months later, I wouldn’t be able to tell you. It’s all a blur.

But once you say it, and people record it, to them it’s front and center. Someone answering a question or stating an intent might very well look back and not even remember saying it. The same thing has happened to me. I’ve been very surprised by some of what I’ve said.

As the game evolves, the perception evolves. To you, it’s the most important answer in the world. To Colin he was answering a question at a con as best he could at the time.

In the end, you can say he’s lying if you want, but I think he probably had many conversations with many people over what should and shouldn’t happen and at the end of the day, he doesn’t remember the change, because there was other conversations going on at the time in house that we’re not privy to.

Vayne.8563:

One, I don’t see compromise as selling out. If this was a full on gear grind (and I don’t see it that way), you’d be right. But it’s a compromise. Anet tried to please everyone and probably didn’t end up pleasing anyone..but I see why they did it.

The compromise was already built into the game. Exotics where BiS and they were easy to obtain (by design, hence “everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game…”). Legendaries were rare and desirable items that were included in the game to give those who wanted “something to do” something to work towards. The compromise was that Legendaries like exotics, were BiS. The addition of ascended gear renders this compromise obsolete; and I fail to see how it establishes a new compromise between those who don’t want a grindy game with gear treadmills and those who.

Vayne.8563:

Secondly, Guild War 1 can’t be compared. It was 8 years ago. The amount of competition today, the free to play games, it’s just not a congruent situation. Guild Wars 1 had a programming team of 50 programmer.s Guild Wars 2 has to support 300, in larger headquarters.

Saying something was done 8 years ago in this market means nothing to what can be achieved today. With the amount of competition out there now, Guild Wars 1 would have had like six guys playing.

I’d probably have been one of them, but it would have never stood the test of time. It was too cerebral for the masses.

As someone who has been both with and against you on various discussions over the last year I’ve come to expect a stronger argument from you than that. The market may have changed over the last eight years, but the fact is Guild Wars thrived, and it didn’t do so in a vacuum.

@folly dragon

B) made me laugh, a lot, and then cry. I live in one of those states.

You had some really good points and ideas.

EDIT: I waited too long to post so I had to edit this.

darkace.8925:

Vayne.8563:

One, I don’t see compromise as selling out. If this was a full on gear grind (and I don’t see it that way), you’d be right. But it’s a compromise. Anet tried to please everyone and probably didn’t end up pleasing anyone..but I see why they did it.

The compromise was already built into the game. Exotics where BiS and they were easy to obtain (by design, hence “everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game…”). Legendaries were rare and desirable items that were included in the game to give those who wanted “something to do” something to work towards. The compromise was that Legendaries like exotics, were BiS. The addition of ascended gear renders this compromise obsolete; and I fail to see how it establishes a new compromise between those who don’t want a grindy game with gear treadmills and those who.

Vayne.8563:

Secondly, Guild War 1 can’t be compared. It was 8 years ago. The amount of competition today, the free to play games, it’s just not a congruent situation. Guild Wars 1 had a programming team of 50 programmer.s Guild Wars 2 has to support 300, in larger headquarters.

Saying something was done 8 years ago in this market means nothing to what can be achieved today. With the amount of competition out there now, Guild Wars 1 would have had like six guys playing.

I’d probably have been one of them, but it would have never stood the test of time. It was too cerebral for the masses.

As someone who has been both with and against you on various discussions over the last year I’ve come to expect a stronger argument from you than that. The market may have changed over the last eight years, but the fact is Guild Wars thrived, and it didn’t do so in a vacuum.

Oh it’s a strong argument. It’s like publishing. Many books published that did will in the 70s and 80s would never have been bought today. That’s not just my opinion…it’s a widely held opinion. The industry changed. It’s become more “commercial” (celebrity cookbook anyone?). No one wants to take the risk on new and different because the amount of the investment dollars required to compete today is much higher.

Are you really trying to tell me a staff of 300 doesn’t need to appeal to a wider audience than a staff of 50? Because that’s the difference in the staff as it stood around launch time. The staff was 6 times the size. Long before this game lauched, I knew it would have to appeal to a wider audience that Guild Wars 1 did. That it would need more support from the cash shop as well.

You may not accept my argument but that doesn’t make it week. 8 years in this industry is almost an eternity.

Vayne.8563:

Oh it’s a strong argument. It’s like publishing. Many books published that did will in the 70s and 80s would never have been bought today. That’s not just my opinion…it’s a widely held opinion. The industry changed. It’s become more “commercial” (celebrity cookbook anyone?). No one wants to take the risk on new and different because the amount of the investment dollars required to compete today is much higher.

Is that not exactly what ArenaNet set out to do with Guild Wars 2? Was not this entire game built around the idea of making something “new and different”? “…and if you hate MMOs, you’ll really want to check out Guild Wars 2.” I refuse the developers were being disingenuous when they made claims like that; one of the reasons I ever invested in this game was because I believed the developers were passionate about what they were making. And this isn’t what they were making.

Vayne.8563:

Are you really trying to tell me a staff of 300 doesn’t need to appeal to a wider audience than a staff of 50? Because that’s the difference in the staff as it stood around launch time. The staff was 6 times the size. Long before this game lauched, I knew it would have to appeal to a wider audience that Guild Wars 1 did. That it would need more support from the cash shop as well.

I’m not going to pretend the revenue generated from Guild Wars would be sufficient to operate Guild Wars 2. There’s a chance it could, but I’m not privy to the operating costs of GW2 or the revenues generated by GW’s cash shop. But it’s perfectly reasonable to assume this game’s operating costs are significantly higher than those of its predecessor.

One of the weaknesses in your argument, though, is the assumption that they wouldn’t or couldn’t have made more than enough money from their player base if they’d never added ascended gear (which is symbolic of a shifting philosophy about what they want this game to be). You’re supposing the people who wanted ascended gear would have left without it. You’re supposing the people who didn’t want ascended gear will stick around with it. You’re supposing the revenue generated wouldn’t have been sufficient to turn a healthy profit either way. You’re basing [part of] your argument on an awful lot of suppositions.

darkace.8925:

Vayne.8563:

Oh it’s a strong argument. It’s like publishing. Many books published that did will in the 70s and 80s would never have been bought today. That’s not just my opinion…it’s a widely held opinion. The industry changed. It’s become more “commercial” (celebrity cookbook anyone?). No one wants to take the risk on new and different because the amount of the investment dollars required to compete today is much higher.

Is that not exactly what ArenaNet set out to do with Guild Wars 2? Was not this entire game built around the idea of making something “new and different”? “…and if you hate MMOs, you’ll really want to check out Guild Wars 2.” I refuse the developers were being disingenuous when they made claims like that; one of the reasons I ever invested in this game was because I believed the developers were passionate about what they were making. And this isn’t what they were making.

Vayne.8563:

Are you really trying to tell me a staff of 300 doesn’t need to appeal to a wider audience than a staff of 50? Because that’s the difference in the staff as it stood around launch time. The staff was 6 times the size. Long before this game lauched, I knew it would have to appeal to a wider audience that Guild Wars 1 did. That it would need more support from the cash shop as well.

I’m not going to pretend the revenue generated from Guild Wars would be sufficient to operate Guild Wars 2. There’s a chance it could, but I’m not privy to the operating costs of GW2 or the revenues generated by GW’s cash shop. But it’s perfectly reasonable to assume this game’s operating costs are significantly higher than those of its predecessor.

One of the weaknesses in your argument, though, is the assumption that they wouldn’t or couldn’t have made more than enough money from their player base if they’d never added ascended gear (which is symbolic of a shifting philosophy about what they want this game to be). You’re supposing the people who wanted ascended gear would have left without it. You’re supposing the people who didn’t want ascended gear will stick around with it. You’re supposing the revenue generated wouldn’t have been sufficient to turn a healthy profit either way. You’re basing [part of] your argument on an awful lot of suppositions.

Are you suggesting you or I have better or more metrics than Anet does for their own game?

I sincerely believe they intended to have grind for cosmetic gear only. I also believe that they expected people to take longer to get exotic gear.

Their metrics suggested people weren’t biting, so they compromised. That’s it. It’s lousy. I don’t love it. A lot of people don’t love it.

But I find it very hard to believe that Anet would “betray” their entire core player base if they didn’t feel it was necessary based on the metrics they possessed.

Vayne.8563:

I still say people are taking what was said too far. They stated an intention in interviews a couple of times, a year before the game launched. People burned these words into their brains. I’m not even convinced people remember what they said.

Where you see an intention I (and I’m sure others) see a fundamental principle. When fundamental principles are changed for the sake of money, the accusations of selling out are bound to follow.

Vayne.8563:

Have you ever been to a convention (which is where many of these interviews occurred). I have. I’ve sat on panels and numerous conventions.

If you asked me what I said even a couple of months later, I wouldn’t be able to tell you. It’s all a blur.

That wasn’t just one comment made in passing at a convention; that was a fundamental principle (and a selling point) driven home time and time again in videos, blogs, interviews, and at conventions.

Vayne.8563:

In the end, you can say he’s lying if you want, but I think he probably had many conversations with many people over what should and shouldn’t happen and at the end of the day, he doesn’t remember the change, because there was other conversations going on at the time in house that we’re not privy to.

What else is it if someone says, “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.” and says a year half a year later, “we always intended to add ascended gear” (paraphrased) if not a lie? Like I’ve said before, I can live with the shifting direction of the game (even if that shift leads me to quit the game); it’s the lack of “straight-talk” that’s burning my goodwill at fast pace.

Vayne.8563:

I sincerely believe they intended to have grind for cosmetic gear only. I also believe that they expected people to take longer to get exotic gear.

Why would you believe that when Collin Johnson himself said “everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.” I believe the length of time and amount of effort required to obtain exotic gear is exactly what they expected it to be. It’s the rate at which players left after getting exotic gear they didn’t expect.

Vayne.8563:

In the end, you can say he’s lying if you want, but I think he probably had many conversations with many people over what should and shouldn’t happen and at the end of the day, he doesn’t remember the change, because there was other conversations going on at the time in house that we’re not privy to.

I am not saying that he was lying. I am sure that he meant it when he originally said that characters would have best stat gear by level 80.

He sold the game based, at least partially, on that statement. He convinced people to spend their money on his product with that claim. We are not talking about some minor detail of game design here. Gear progression, itemization in general, is a significant part of MMO design and its implementation, or lack thereof, in GW2 was a significant point prior to GW2’s release. It would not speak highly of his professionalism if Colin “forgot” one of the core design philosophies of the game.

@Vayne – I just wanted to say that when they first opened up the pre-purchase in April, I think I watched every promotional video I could find. I didn’t watch them once but several times.
At the time I was playing a Korean MMO and GW2 was going to be the one game I could finally get to max stats and just have fun and play. No more gear stat chasing but skin chasing. And I could take my sweet time doing it without ever worrying about being less than optimal. I could make multiple characters and experiment with different builds. It seemed too good to be true.
Those videos built a lot of expectation for a lot of people. Can you blame them for continually bringing the quotes up at this juncture?
We all know that Anet is a company, a business, and needs to make money. But can you honestly say that they haven’t strayed from their vision? And isn’t there a ton of different ways all this could have been handled and still stay true to the premise the original game was built upon?
I could list a bunch of amazing ideas that have been brought up in the forums and sent to suggestions subforum to die. Ideas that would have brought challenge and content while maintaining exotic stats as top tier. Things to give those in need of defined goals what they wanted without a new tier. All the while bringing in more money for Anet as some ideas involved monetization as well.
It’s all mute, I know, but this is like the second slap to the face after the first one landed blindside in November. In the grand scheme it doesn’t really matter because statistics speak no matter how loud or annoying a group may become.

EDIT: I’m always late to the party. Vayne I see where you did say they strayed from their vision. Disregard.

darkace.8925:

Vayne.8563:

I still say people are taking what was said too far. They stated an intention in interviews a couple of times, a year before the game launched. People burned these words into their brains. I’m not even convinced people remember what they said.

Where you see an intention I (and I’m sure others) see a fundamental principle. When fundamental principles are changed for the sake of money, the accusations of selling out are bound to follow.

Vayne.8563:

Have you ever been to a convention (which is where many of these interviews occurred). I have. I’ve sat on panels and numerous conventions.

If you asked me what I said even a couple of months later, I wouldn’t be able to tell you. It’s all a blur.

That wasn’t just one comment made in passing at a convention; that was a fundamental principle (and a selling point) driven home time and time again in videos, blogs, interviews, and at conventions.

Vayne.8563:

In the end, you can say he’s lying if you want, but I think he probably had many conversations with many people over what should and shouldn’t happen and at the end of the day, he doesn’t remember the change, because there was other conversations going on at the time in house that we’re not privy to.

What else is it if someone says, “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.” and says a year half a year later, “we always intended to add ascended gear” (paraphrased) if not a lie? Like I’ve said before, I can live with the shifting direction of the game (even if that shift leads me to quit the game); it’s the lack of “straight-talk” that’s burning my goodwill at fast pace.

We always intended to add ascended gear might very well be true…that doesn’t mean it was always meant to have higher stats.

There’s no point arguing because you’re vested in your point of view to the point where nothing I say will make any difference.

You’re right from your point of view. Objectively…maybe, maybe not. You weren’t there, I wasn’t there, there’s no way to know.

Infernia.9847:

@Vayne – I just wanted to say that when they first opened up the pre-purchase in April, I think I watched every promotional video I could find. I didn’t watch them once but several times.
At the time I was playing a Korean MMO and GW2 was going to be the one game I could finally get to max stats and just have fun and play. No more gear stat chasing but skin chasing. And I could take my sweet time doing it without ever worrying about being less than optimal. I could make multiple characters and experiment with different builds. It seemed too good to be true.
Those videos built a lot of expectation for a lot of people. Can you blame them for continually bringing the quotes up at this juncture?
We all know that Anet is a company, a business, and needs to make money. But can you honestly say that they haven’t strayed from their vision? And isn’t there a ton of different ways all this could have been handled and still stay true to the premise the original game was built upon?
I could list a bunch of amazing ideas that have been brought up in the forums and sent to suggestions subforum to die. Ideas that would have brought challenge and content while maintaining exotic stats as top tier. Things to give those in need of defined goals what they wanted without a new tier. All the while bringing in more money for Anet as some ideas involved monetization as well.
It’s all mute, I know, but this is like the second slap to the face after the first one landed blindside in November. In the grand scheme it doesn’t really matter because statistics speak no matter how loud or annoying a group may become.

I watched the same videos you did, probably as much or more than you did. Again, when Anet was making the game, they thought the bulk of people could adapt to just cosmetic rewards. They found out otherwise.

I’m not sure how else I can say it. We don’t have their metrics. But do you really think Anet woke up one day and said, I got it! I’ll make a change that will kitten off our strongest and best fans.

Because I don’t think it went down that way.

Vayne.8563:

I watched the same videos you did, probably as much or more than you did. Again, when Anet was making the game, they thought the bulk of people could adapt to just cosmetic rewards. They found out otherwise.

I’m not sure how else I can say it. We don’t have their metrics. But do you really think Anet woke up one day and said, I got it! I’ll make a change that will kitten off our strongest and best fans.

Because I don’t think it went down that way.

No I don’t think it did either. But I do think they could have handled all of it much differently and turned that gear grind mentality into something better.
I believe they had a vision that was lost in a reactionary decision to hold onto a population that may or may not have stayed no matter what they did. And as a company it is a wise decision to study your demographics, especially those that are more likely to be paying customers.
It felt like a knee jerk reaction to a particular subset of players. And of course that’s just my opinion.

Infernia.9847:

Vayne.8563:

I watched the same videos you did, probably as much or more than you did. Again, when Anet was making the game, they thought the bulk of people could adapt to just cosmetic rewards. They found out otherwise.

I’m not sure how else I can say it. We don’t have their metrics. But do you really think Anet woke up one day and said, I got it! I’ll make a change that will kitten off our strongest and best fans.

Because I don’t think it went down that way.

No I don’t think it did either. But I do think they could have handled all of it much differently and turned that gear grind mentality into something better.
I believe they had a vision that was lost in a reactionary decision to hold onto a population that may or may not have stayed no matter what they did. And as a company it is a wise decision to study your demographics, especially those that are more likely to be paying customers.
It felt like a knee jerk reaction to a particular subset of players. And of course that’s just my opinion.

I agree that it could have been handled differently. But the question is this.

If it were your millions of dollars and five years investment…how much time/risk would you have been willing to put into it to see if it might fix the problem, keeping in mind that many people who leave MMOs go back to their old MMOs and never check in again.

That’s the problem. They probably had more than one camp. One group saying, look, we said this, and another group saying, okay what can we do that would help that we can do in a timely manner and is guaranteed to work.

Once you start asking questions like that, the answers become harder.