Guild Wars 2

I would like to give perhaps a different perspective to the NPE. So to give a little background to this, I am not a new player. My first MMO was GW1 and have played others in between the two games.

MMOs in general have core concepts such as armour, weapons, upgrades, crafting, loot drops and countless other things that most players who are GW2 veterans or gamers who have played other MMOs will take their understanding of for granted.

So my Girlfriend decided that after a few years of moaning at me for playing GW2 all the time she would give it a try during the free trial. I ultimately brought her an account as it was in the sale.

My Girlfriend has no experience of an MMO, her typical computer games are things like Sim City and the odd PS4 or Xbox One game like Kinect Sport.
At first when she created a character and did her first starting levels, she was getting really into it. I followed her around in the low level areas trying to explain the basics like navigating, killing mobs etc.

At the end of her first few hours she seemed quite into the game. Yesterday she went back onto it and continued doing hearts until she hit level 10. At this point she had what can be described as a mini melt down as to how confusing the requirements are. She got very frustrated at not knowing what the armour types are for, what to do with loot, why we have bank storage, what to do with crafting materials, why we needed crafting materials, what the purpose of food buffs are and all of the things that a seasoned MMO player would know instinctively.

She felt that the game did not do a good job of explaining these elements during the initial game play.

Based on my girlfriends experience so far, I believe that the changes to the NPE are most definitely a good idea as having everything available from the get go would have been even more overwhelming.

I also believe that the NPE should introduce some of the points mentioned above at an earlier stage so her confusion could have been minimised.
She hasn’t rage quit yet but we will see how her next few days go.

I think the point I am trying to make with this post is that most people who are moaning about the changes are not new to MMOs or GW2 and should think about what it would be like to start this game with no understanding of the mechanics or MMOs in general.

I believe further changes could be made in order to help new players learn these concepts within the game, perhaps tutorials that could be accessed within the game rather than having to access the wiki.

This was what I was trying to get across to other on other threads bemoaning this new feature.

People forget what it is like to be new to an online world as large as GW2.

It goes even deeper than that. One of my friends played Guild Wars 1 with me and couldn’t get into Guild Wars 2, because it’s not linear. He only plays and understand linear games. Guild Wars 1 pretty much always told you exactly where to go. Guild Wars 2 doesn’t really. He found it very frustrating.

I talked him into coming back and trying it again, and he liked the new version much better. It was better for him because he felt he had some direction.

Obviously it’s not better for me. I know the kitten ed game already.

Yet for me I actually am a natural when it comes to game basics and games in general, (unless its a fighting or sports game). So I Never have problem learning anything and if I don’t know it, I look it up or ask.

Yet I can put myself in that player’s shoes that the OP described and I wholeheartedly welcomed the new changes.

Vayne.8563:

Obviously it’s not better for me. I know the kitten ed game already.

I am refraining from commenting on how this affects seasoned players due to the announcement of unforeseen bugs on patch day.

Personalizing such things, while cute, ignores a larger relevance and impact.

Personally I think hand-holding at the expense of initial in-game freedom to be a huge loss in regards to what was one of GW’s biggest selling points. Not only that but gaming at large should put gamers first, the people that buy and play games a lot…not people that have never played such games before at the expense of those that have imo. Not in this day and age at least.10 years ago and I would agree.

Cater to yes, dictate the leveling experience? Not so much.

There is also another aspect which is the community. I have played a few games which were not initially welcoming to a new player in mechanics and dogma but it was the community that taught me the ins and outs of the world in question and the mechanics involved.

That to me is the definition of a good MMO. Not the NPE.

What I mean is a tough game tends to breed a welcoming and helpful community. A dumbed down game tends to breed impatience and rudeness.

I think the disconnect came from two groups – First, the people who just read the patch notes and overreacted (this is probably the largest dissenting voice, unfortunately) – and second, the veteran players who went back to give it a try/level an alt and found the experience a little more locked down/gated than they originally remember.

When I rolled an alt to give it a try, I actually found it to be a better experience for the most part. This was primarily because it feels like the first 10 levels are now a proper “tutorial.” Leveling for the first 10 levels feels about twice as fast as it used to be, which gets you to the more interesting stuff faster while still giving you a focused experience to learn the basics.

The one downside is that the early level zones are now WAY too easy as part of the persistent world. Downscaling of max level characters needs to be adjusted to account for this. This is GW2. We shouldnt be able to one shot veteran opponents or supposed enemy commanders in any zone.

I thought the changes were seriously dumbing things down until I started a new character in Wayfarer’s where I started my very first character, totally new to MMOs. And yeah, instant flashback. How do I feed these bears? What am I supposed to do next? Why are the people in my story instance not there now? And not learning what my other weapon skills did for a long time because it was just a rush of confusion. I remember not realizing that Wayfarer’s had a huge section to the north for way too long a time, I thought I was just supposed to spam everything in the lower area over and over!

I know how all this stuff works now, but at that moment I realized that I had forgotten that initial confusion. I don’t know if the new changes fix this stuff or not, only ANet does, but there was definitely an issue to be resolved.

i still remember leveling my first gw2 character.. it was engaging for many levels and then it just dies off.. and i also know people learn to power level and then they “teach” newer players “how to play the game” and it just becomes an abominable disgrace after awhile.. i completely agree the npe was necessary and in fact supported it Months/year? ago when arena net was considering it.. unfortunately, i am in no way obligated to subscribe to the finished product.. it looks like another surgical job done with a sledge hammer..

While I get where you are coming from OP, you are forgetting one thing: We were all new players at one point and time and we all had to buck up and learn. Also, its not like these other games we played were oh so great at explaining every nuance in the game. For me, having played GW1 and WoW and some EQ, it still took me a while to learn and figure out things like dodge timing and combo fields/finishers. I didn’t leave the game. I learned it. i asked questions or sought answers. Now, could Anet have more seemless tutorials in game? Sure. Do they have some neat (and slyly disguised ones) already? Yes. So i know they can do it. Does that mean they have to cripple early play to cater to people that might get spooked? No, not at all. Putting your game on training wheels for as long as GW2 does now is not the answer. Ever.

I posted some time back on the fact that I could not possibly comment on the NPE since I am not a new player, and am therefore not the audience it is intended for. I can’t be “new” just because I’ve created a new character, considering I’ve been playing this game for 2000 hours. I think that ANet made the NPE based on feedback they got and it is probably going to help them get and retain more players.

However, I also feel that there should perhaps be some sort of opt out for veteran players. I don’t see a need to have players go through the NPE for every single character they make. It’s just … frustrating to those players. So, I would really like to see ANet come up with a workable solution for this issue.

I’d hate to to be playing that one game that went:

“Hey jee wilickers and schuckles…never played a MMORPG before? Well jee wizz…heres a sword…you hit stuff with it…especially monsters…then you get stronger and get a big boy sword!!!”

DaveyC.4398:

I think the point I am trying to make with this post is that most people who are moaning about the changes are not new to MMOs or GW2 and should think about what it would be like to start this game with no understanding of the mechanics or MMOs in general.

I believe further changes could be made in order to help new players learn these concepts within the game, perhaps tutorials that could be accessed within the game rather than having to access the wiki.

I have to agree. Gated acquisition of game mechanics is fine — all MMO’s do that. However, the NPE also sped leveling up so that mechanics are introduced at “about the same time into play.” The way weapon skill acquisition now works might also be an issue for new players, as slotting a new (to that player) weapon at level 10 hits them with five new skills at once. The NPE did very little to actually teach anything.

I think a lot of the negativity about the NPE stems from the April trait change, which was severely criticized by a lot of posters. To many people who hated the trait changes, the NPE would look like “more of the same” from the developer.

See, I know exactly how the previous leveling system felt for a complete stranger to MMOs, because I WAS a complete stranger to MMOs when I got GW2. Combat system was nothing like what I knew before, I had no idea what certain things are for and where I should go anyway.
Was I confused at some points? Of course! Did I die a lot? Hell I did! Did the hungry bunnies beat the crap out of me? You wouldn’t believe! And all of this felt great.
Since then I tried other MMOs too and every time I was forced to go through long, boring toutorial first I was just too annoyed to continue. I was like, that’s not how you treat a player. Let me discover it on my own! I want to see all the options immediately and decide how fast, in what way and what order to get familiar with them. I don’t need anyone to spoonfeed me.
And look, now GW2 is just the same.

This reminds me of my MMO start, which was GW1. What I missed most were explanations of the core game mechanics (what is the purpose of all of the things in the game) and the meta mechanics (how to use these things to get a positive result).

Unfortunately, this problem still exists with GW2. Things are still not explained, but simply put in front of the player. The NPE stretched the timespan things are put in front of the player, but it is still not explained what the purpose of the thing is and how to use it for the best purpose. It doesn’t become clear what the reason is why this thing exists.

It should become clear that items can be bought and sold for money or used for crafting without help, but nobody explains what a character build is and why it is important. Nobody explains explains how to build a character that can fight. Nobody shows good examples and bad examples, where you see what works and what doesn’t work.

The problem is, that as a beginner, you are not able to see why you fail. Often, you don’t even see that you failed and could be better instead. You think: “I die so often. This game seems to be designed like this, but this is too frustrating for me. Bye bye.”

Initially, the fixed 5+heal+3 utility+elite skill scheme was to avoid totally broken skill bars, but with the addition of traits and additional attributes of armor and weapons, you can (and will) still have terrible and totally inadequate builds. It is not enough to give a template that cannot completely fail from the perspective of skills – it is necessary in my opinion that also the additional aspects of your build should be in some kind of guided tutorial. Simply giving the tools into the hands of a new player one by one is not enough. Tell him what to do with it more thoroughly.
The absolutely worst thing in this regard was the fixed trait setup until the first feature update. It even prevented experimentation. Thank god it’s the past.

So I would say the NPE is a step in the right direction for completely new players, but only a step. There could be more. It would not be wasted time to implement – the return of investment would probably be more players that otherwise leave after one week, because they were not able to learn the mechanics.

I dont think the example that the OP is bringing up is very relevant. He basically had to drag his girlfriend into playing gw2, he even had to buy the game for her. I bet that after 20 hours of playing the game she will get bored and stop playing, and no matter what changes you recommend that wont make her hold more attention to the game.

The game should catter to people that are interested in playing it, if you buy a game you should do a little research about what you are buying before spending money on it, and not expect to be hand-holded all the way through the game.

So, basically she doesnt know how mmos work, didnt even bother in buying a copy herself and after only a few hours she felt overwhelmed by everything the game has to offer so lets dumb down the game even more so more and more people that dont give a kitten about the game can complain less until they reach lvl 80 and get bored anyway.

Well if we’re talking about overwhelm, part of the issue I can see immediately from your anecdote is that players are forced to confront certain features very quickly. For example, if you kill a lot of mobs and loot them, you’re quickly going to have your inventory filling up, maybe even to full.

You are then pretty much forced to deal with how to manage your inventory space, which is relatively simple in most games; junk loot gets sold to a vendor and you can often sell extraneous pieces of gear too.

But in GW2, you have salvaging, which is way more beneficial in the long-term than selling the gear you loot and doing so introduces you to two more systems – essences of luck and crafting materials (and their storage).

True story, when I first started playing, I was putting my essences of luck in the bank because I thought they were some kind of crafting material that you use for crafting cool stuff and I was all like, “Yeah, I’m thinking ahead and will have them readily available.” And, uh, I thought that the collectibles area was somewhere that you collect things for an achievement or something lol (though that has changed now, so it doesn’t matter).

Also, I agree with those who are criticizing the new weapon skill unlock system. Although it’s neat and all for spacing out exposure to skills, it all goes to hell in a handbasket when you equip a different weapon. I remember learning skills from different weapons by unlocking them and it gave me a stronger sense of what kind of stuff the weapon can do.

Now I have to stop and read over everything with a new weapon or just mash buttons at random. The previous system wasn’t perfect though; I will never forget painstakingly trying to unlock elementalist staff water skills at a low level. WTB deeps…

Yenrah.8532:

See, I know exactly how the previous leveling system felt for a complete stranger to MMOs, because I WAS a complete stranger to MMOs when I got GW2. Combat system was nothing like what I knew before, I had no idea what certain things are for and where I should go anyway.
Was I confused at some points? Of course! Did I die a lot? Hell I did! Did the hungry bunnies beat the crap out of me? You wouldn’t believe! And all of this felt great.
Since then I tried other MMOs too and every time I was forced to go through long, boring toutorial first I was just too annoyed to continue. I was like, that’s not how you treat a player. Let me discover it on my own! I want to see all the options immediately and decide how fast, in what way and what order to get familiar with them. I don’t need anyone to spoonfeed me.
And look, now GW2 is just the same.

Thats my core disagreement.

GW had a really great and industry renowned point of difference from the rest of the market, and now they are attempting to conform…in hindsight and retrospect to what every other MMO is doing.

DaveyC.4398:

I would like to give perhaps a different perspective to the NPE. So to give a little background to this, I am not a new player. My first MMO was GW1 and have played others in between the two games.

MMOs in general have core concepts such as armour, weapons, upgrades, crafting, loot drops and countless other things that most players who are GW2 veterans or gamers who have played other MMOs will take their understanding of for granted.

So my Girlfriend decided that after a few years of moaning at me for playing GW2 all the time she would give it a try during the free trial. I ultimately brought her an account as it was in the sale.

My Girlfriend has no experience of an MMO, her typical computer games are things like Sim City and the odd PS4 or Xbox One game like Kinect Sport.
At first when she created a character and did her first starting levels, she was getting really into it. I followed her around in the low level areas trying to explain the basics like navigating, killing mobs etc.

At the end of her first few hours she seemed quite into the game. Yesterday she went back onto it and continued doing hearts until she hit level 10. At this point she had what can be described as a mini melt down as to how confusing the requirements are. She got very frustrated at not knowing what the armour types are for, what to do with loot, why we have bank storage, what to do with crafting materials, why we needed crafting materials, what the purpose of food buffs are and all of the things that a seasoned MMO player would know instinctively.

She felt that the game did not do a good job of explaining these elements during the initial game play.

Based on my girlfriends experience so far, I believe that the changes to the NPE are most definitely a good idea as having everything available from the get go would have been even more overwhelming.

I also believe that the NPE should introduce some of the points mentioned above at an earlier stage so her confusion could have been minimised.
She hasn’t rage quit yet but we will see how her next few days go.

I think the point I am trying to make with this post is that most people who are moaning about the changes are not new to MMOs or GW2 and should think about what it would be like to start this game with no understanding of the mechanics or MMOs in general.

I believe further changes could be made in order to help new players learn these concepts within the game, perhaps tutorials that could be accessed within the game rather than having to access the wiki.

I think that’s nice that you got your girlfriend to play with you but is she playing it to spend time with you or because she likes it? Do you think if you stopped playing she would keep playing? Do you think if you broke up she would keep playing? Would she have ever played any MMO with out your input? Is she the type of player that will be profitable for a game developer to cater to?

My daughter used to play with me. She had fun playing and played like most the white knights say you should play, with out real expectations or goals. Just wondering around exploring and enjoying the world. When I quit playing she quit also. Even though she enjoyed the game, she was really only playing to spend time with me. Which is great for arenanet as long as I kept playing so I’m not sure we should be catering to her.

PS, I hope you never get to answer some of my questions and you and your girlfriend have many years of playing MMOs together.

Yenrah.8532:

Was I confused at some points? Of course! Did I die a lot? Hell I did! Did the hungry bunnies beat the crap out of me? You wouldn’t believe! And all of this felt great.

I really feel sorry for those bunnies. After the lobotomy they are a sad, lethargic bunch…

Yenrah.8532:

See, I know exactly how the previous leveling system felt for a complete stranger to MMOs, because I WAS a complete stranger to MMOs when I got GW2. Combat system was nothing like what I knew before, I had no idea what certain things are for and where I should go anyway.
Was I confused at some points? Of course! Did I die a lot? Hell I did! Did the hungry bunnies beat the crap out of me? You wouldn’t believe! And all of this felt great.
Since then I tried other MMOs too and every time I was forced to go through long, boring toutorial first I was just too annoyed to continue. I was like, that’s not how you treat a player. Let me discover it on my own! I want to see all the options immediately and decide how fast, in what way and what order to get familiar with them. I don’t need anyone to spoonfeed me.
And look, now GW2 is just the same.

Beyond the misleading dodge micro-tutorial, what tutorial now exists that did not exist before? Very little, to nothing, was added that actually teaches anything. Some level gating was changed (NOT added, changed). The leveling process is very much the same except for the “pointer” which can be disabled, and the level-up notification (which a lot of games provide).

Still, I understand your point. Were a substantial tutorial to be added, there should be an opt-out.

Casmurro.9046:

I dont think the example that the OP is bringing up is very relevant. He basically had to drag his girlfriend into playing gw2, he even had to buy the game for her. I bet that after 20 hours of playing the game she will get bored and stop playing, and no matter what changes you recommend that wont make her hold more attention to the game.

The game should catter to people that are interested in playing it, if you buy a game you should do a little research about what you are buying before spending money on it, and not expect to be hand-holded all the way through the game.

So, basically she doesnt know how mmos work, didnt even bother in buying a copy herself and after only a few hours she felt overwhelmed by everything the game has to offer so lets dumb down the game even more so more and more people that dont give a kitten about the game can complain less until they reach lvl 80 and get bored anyway.

QFT

Catering to those that aren’t going to hang around anyways makes me think they don’t want the kind of players that will end up staying for the long haul. I could understand making the starter zones in to proper tutorials to explain some of the things like dodging and combo fields that are completely different than other MMOs. The changes they did do though show a total disconnect from the playerbase.

OP gets girlfriend to try game (with NPE).
Girlfriend still confused by everything.
Conclusion: NPE doesn’t work at intended goal.

Or a better conclusion, perhaps… is that you will never be able to dumb down the beginning of a game sufficiently that people who are new to gaming will not be confused, at the same time as not boring the kitten out of people who have even a slight familiarity with games.

One question I wish to ask ANet is why can’t they revamp the intro racial fights to accommodate this New Player Experience they’re trying to do?

Yeah it would smell a bit of a tutorial like Pre Searing Ascalon or the Academy in Cantha.
It however would help newbies understand the game better while more experienced players burn through or even skip it all together.

This way levels 1 – 10 wouldn’t be mostly about “here’s how your weapon works” but more along the lines of “Here’s how storage/merchants/guilds work” level of game play.

Simplifying content in the starting zones not only makes them boring and monotonous, but also ensures that many new players will have problems grasping such basic concepts as putting the stone on the pressure plate in the Catacombs Story when they reach lvl 30. ;D

Very little, to nothing, was added that actually teaches anything.

that would require work. . . not to mention i don’t think arena net actually knows how to play their own game

and after only a few hours she felt overwhelmed by everything the game has to offer

good point, may not be the target audience.. also, i couldn’t help but think “if she tried perfect world international for more than a few hours her brain would explode” n_n

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

Casmurro.9046:

I dont think the example that the OP is bringing up is very relevant. He basically had to drag his girlfriend into playing gw2, he even had to buy the game for her. I bet that after 20 hours of playing the game she will get bored and stop playing, and no matter what changes you recommend that wont make her hold more attention to the game.

The game should catter to people that are interested in playing it, if you buy a game you should do a little research about what you are buying before spending money on it, and not expect to be hand-holded all the way through the game.

So, basically she doesnt know how mmos work, didnt even bother in buying a copy herself and after only a few hours she felt overwhelmed by everything the game has to offer so lets dumb down the game even more so more and more people that dont give a kitten about the game can complain less until they reach lvl 80 and get bored anyway.

QFT

Catering to those that aren’t going to hang around anyways makes me think they don’t want the kind of players that will end up staying for the long haul. I could understand making the starter zones in to proper tutorials to explain some of the things like dodging and combo fields that are completely different than other MMOs. The changes they did do though show a total disconnect from the playerbase.

Agree with all of the above. MMORPGs have a target audience. When you bring randoms off the street and watch them play the game, of course they’re going to be confused.

ANET’s problem is they don’t know what this game is on a fundamental level. If it was meant to be a farmville game, catered to as broad a swathe of the public as possible, the marketing and advertising departments failed heavily years ago at launch. I bought this game because I like the MMORPG genre, I have a fundamental understanding of what comes along with that genre, and I am the type of player who would have stuck around for a long time.

It’s like ANET made “Game of Thrones” and realized that it doesn’t cater to the “Teletubbies” crowd. Well, duh?

Maybe loot should be level gated – unlock new drops with each new level with an explanation of what it’s used for.

Olvendred.3027:

OP gets girlfriend to try game (with NPE).
Girlfriend still confused by everything.
Conclusion: NPE doesn’t work at intended goal.

Or a better conclusion, perhaps… is that you will never be able to dumb down the beginning of a game sufficiently that people who are new to gaming will not be confused, at the same time as not boring the kitten out of people who have even a slight familiarity with games.

QFT.

When a game places priority on those that never have over actual gamers your on a downward slope. Counterversly you could create an environment where the games community helps and embraces new players. To me that’s a good, all be it great and welcoming MMORPG format.

The NPE is MMORPG for dummies, in a game where the hardcore have little else to do but re-roll. Que frustration and an unwelcoming place for new players imho.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Beyond the misleading dodge micro-tutorial, what tutorial now exists that did not exist before? Very little, to nothing, was added that actually teaches anything. Some level gating was changed (NOT added, changed). The leveling process is very much the same except for the “pointer” which can be disabled, and the level-up notification (which a lot of games provide).

Still, I understand your point. Were a substantial tutorial to be added, there should be an opt-out.

All of the starter zones became a hugh boring tutorial. What has changed? Mobs aren’t dangerous anymore, so you don’t feel the need to learn how to fight. Every bit of funny, interesting, unusual, new, and yes confusing because “confusing” is not a bad thing even if Anet tells us so, all this content that got me into this game from the very beginning is gone. Events and hearts dumbed down. Not even gathering nodes at the beginning for a poor noobie who does’t really feel like fighting yet.
Thats little? Well not for me…

Yeah, that’s even worse than a normal tutorial, because it seems that the game is just supposed to be like that. Bland, boring and catering to the lowest common denominator.

They really could have extended the introductory event, adding some explanations there without utterly demolishing the awesome starting zones and the fluidity of leveling…

Casmurro.9046:

I dont think the example that the OP is bringing up is very relevant. He basically had to drag his girlfriend into playing gw2, he even had to buy the game for her. I bet that after 20 hours of playing the game she will get bored and stop playing, and no matter what changes you recommend that wont make her hold more attention to the game.

The game should catter to people that are interested in playing it, if you buy a game you should do a little research about what you are buying before spending money on it, and not expect to be hand-holded all the way through the game.

So, basically she doesnt know how mmos work, didnt even bother in buying a copy herself and after only a few hours she felt overwhelmed by everything the game has to offer so lets dumb down the game even more so more and more people that dont give a kitten about the game can complain less until they reach lvl 80 and get bored anyway.

I am going to take from this that in your opinion, someone new to MMOs should not be playing GW2.

I live with my girlfriend so buying her a computer game as I have done many times for console games has nothing to do with whether she is ‘Interested’ enough to play GW2 or not. She wanted to play because she saw how much I enjoyed it and thought she might too.

So the other comparison I have is a friend I recommended the game to who was also new to MMOs. He got the game a year ago and did not get past level 10 as he found the NPE to be overwhelming.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

Casmurro.9046:

I dont think the example that the OP is bringing up is very relevant. He basically had to drag his girlfriend into playing gw2, he even had to buy the game for her. I bet that after 20 hours of playing the game she will get bored and stop playing, and no matter what changes you recommend that wont make her hold more attention to the game.

The game should catter to people that are interested in playing it, if you buy a game you should do a little research about what you are buying before spending money on it, and not expect to be hand-holded all the way through the game.

So, basically she doesnt know how mmos work, didnt even bother in buying a copy herself and after only a few hours she felt overwhelmed by everything the game has to offer so lets dumb down the game even more so more and more people that dont give a kitten about the game can complain less until they reach lvl 80 and get bored anyway.

QFT

Catering to those that aren’t going to hang around anyways makes me think they don’t want the kind of players that will end up staying for the long haul. I could understand making the starter zones in to proper tutorials to explain some of the things like dodging and combo fields that are completely different than other MMOs. The changes they did do though show a total disconnect from the playerbase.

Agree with all of the above. MMORPGs have a target audience. When you bring randoms off the street and watch them play the game, of course they’re going to be confused.

ANET’s problem is they don’t know what this game is on a fundamental level. If it was meant to be a farmville game, catered to as broad a swathe of the public as possible, the marketing and advertising departments failed heavily years ago at launch. I bought this game because I like the MMORPG genre, I have a fundamental understanding of what comes along with that genre, and I am the type of player who would have stuck around for a long time.

It’s like ANET made “Game of Thrones” and realized that it doesn’t cater to the “Teletubbies” crowd. Well, duh?

End game and new player experience are worlds apart. A new player experience can be informative without it restricting the level of end game.

I feel that the core reason most players are upset about the change is because the end game has been neglected.

Sure there are living world updates every couple of weeks but they hardly present a challenge to an experienced player.

I would love to see the underworld and FoW make a return, that would at least give some elitist content back into the game whilst sticking to the original lore.

Yenrah.8532:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Beyond the misleading dodge micro-tutorial, what tutorial now exists that did not exist before? Very little, to nothing, was added that actually teaches anything. Some level gating was changed (NOT added, changed). The leveling process is very much the same except for the “pointer” which can be disabled, and the level-up notification (which a lot of games provide).

Still, I understand your point. Were a substantial tutorial to be added, there should be an opt-out.

All of the starter zones became a hugh boring tutorial. What has changed? Mobs aren’t dangerous anymore, so you don’t feel the need to learn how to fight. Every bit of funny, interesting, unusual, new, and yes confusing because “confusing” is not a bad thing even if Anet tells us so, all this content that got me into this game from the very beginning is gone. Events and hearts dumbed down. Not even gathering nodes at the beginning for a poor noobie who does’t really feel like fighting yet.
Thats little? Well not for me…

Little or not, that’s not a tutorial — at least not anymore than it was before. Mobs in starter zones were always pretty easy. When I 1-10’d WFF after NPE, the mobs felt about the same. Mobs +2 still give challenge in numbers, and the on-level Vets, particularly the Snow Troll, hit hard enough to down. I preferred some of the hearts more complex, but honestly, the changes amount to click once versus the former click three times (feeding the bear cubs, for instance).

Ah! The timeless question: do we want the Goldy the Goose or the Golden Egg?

Perhaps both?

Something to consider: you are only “new” once and then you aren’t.

Wizard 101 has a different demographic methinks.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Thanks for this feedback, it’s very informative!

What rubs me the wrong way is that this looks like a confirmation by an Anet official that this is exactly the kind of player they want to appeal to…

I’d just love a clarification if this is the route this game will take from now on (/since a few patches ago) or if we can expect some changes and additions that aren’t targetted at people who are overwhelmed by bank space (what?!).

Don’t hold your breath.

It seems obvious at this point that this is exactly how ANet works… pick ONE random forum post from some random person and base the next 3 years’ game production on that. At least, judging by all the changes over the last 2 years, that is exactly how I see it, since every decent idea is wrecked in some way by equal and offsetting pussball ideas.

Crovax.7854:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Thanks for this feedback, it’s very informative!

What rubs me the wrong way is that this looks like a confirmation by an Anet official that this is exactly the kind of player they want to appeal to…

I’d just love a clarification if this is the route this game will take from now on (/since a few patches ago) or if we can expect some changes and additions that aren’t targetted at people who are overwhelmed by bank space (what?!).

So, Dry Top wasn’t aimed at vets? Crafting and TP changes not aimed at everyone? I’d go on but if that doesn’t convince you your complaint is unfounded, more examples won’t either.

Crovax.7854:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Thanks for this feedback, it’s very informative!

What rubs me the wrong way is that this looks like a confirmation by an Anet official that this is exactly the kind of player they want to appeal to…

I’d just love a clarification if this is the route this game will take from now on (/since a few patches ago) or if we can expect some changes and additions that aren’t targetted at people who are overwhelmed by bank space (what?!).

See the thing is I have been playing this game since the beta and have invested close to 2000 hours in game.

I more than anyone would like to see changes that would affect end game users.

I have no problems with new players joining a game as ultimately, that’s how a community grows.

I also work for a software company and have been involved with blended learning for over 8 years. As a result I understand that the core founding’s of an application need to be in order before significant changes can be made that will impact experienced users, after all if you are experienced, you already know the basics…

You are not a new player and cannot appreciate the view of a new user. This patch was not tailored to veterans, it was aimed at improvements to people who are new.

This does not mean that improvements for veterans will not come, its just that improvements come from the ground up.

Crovax.7854:

What rubs me the wrong way is that this looks like a confirmation by an Anet official that this is exactly the kind of player they want to appeal to…

I’d just love a clarification if this is the route this game will take from now on (/since a few patches ago) or if we can expect some changes and additions that aren’t targetted at people who are overwhelmed by bank space (what?!).

You’re asking a leading question though. Any yes or no answer to the question implies that Anet only cares about one demographic, which would make no sense for any MMO ever made. They are (especially these days) trying to appeal to lots of different demographics all at once.

The leveling experience is clearly supposed to be about retaining new players and getting them to become a more permanent part of the community. Whether those people start out as semi-noob or full-noob isn’t as relevant as you think; some people learn quickly with the right kind of motivation and environment for it.

And some of the people who are “experienced” at MMOs… well, they kinda suck.

Asmodeus.5782:

Yenrah.8532:

Was I confused at some points? Of course! Did I die a lot? Hell I did! Did the hungry bunnies beat the crap out of me? You wouldn’t believe! And all of this felt great.

I really feel sorry for those bunnies. After the lobotomy they are a sad, lethargic bunch…

Except that the hungry bunnies do still knock you over if you’re not careful. I know this for a fact because it happened to my newest character the other day when I did that particular renown heart, which is now located at the bottom of the cliff in Taigan Groves. And, in point of fact, I have no quarrel with it. The renown heart as it was previously was quite tedious and the bunnies were really a bit too active, plus which you ran the risk of falling to your death if you were in the wrong spot. This new version goes a lot faster. (I also notice that nobody seems to have commented on the new state of the renown heart involving trade with the jotun. There are a lot of low-level enemies there now which makes the heart go much faster because you can kill them to get it done and get XP in the process, which IMO greatly improves that heart, which previously was the most boring one in Wayfarer.)

Well, not a single one wanted to tackle me when I was doing it. I did it all without dodging or even avoiding the holes.

I’m over this “lets gently nestle the new gamers into a soft blanket of fluffy unicorn feathers…are they ok?….well at level 2 lets give them a yummy goody gum drop lemony sweetie!!…are they ok?… well at level 3….”

Kitten that!!!

Seriously….what the hell is going on here? Computer games should be marketed at computer game buyers and game players. Not dictated by the “fringe” market of people that have never played such a game or don’t even give two kittens about such games.

What? That’s one of the few times you get to see an Anet rep here? “Oh yay baby took her first step…game going good!!!!”

Anet is seriously delusional at the moment.

Not trying to sound mean here, but it sounds like some people are happy that she was freaking out at level 10 now instead of level 1. Is that something to be happy about? It sounds to me that 1) If her boyfriend didn’t play already she would have never tried this game, and 2) Without her boyfriend answering her current questions she would quit right now instead of figuring it out over time like the rest of us did.

So, personally, threads like this do not convince me that the NPE has solved the problem. While it MIGHT be argued that it has helped new players early on, there is still going to come a point where the new player decides if they are going to 1) Do some research online and/or ask other players their questions, or 2) Decide this game is just “too complicated” and go back to crushing candy or whatever else they were doing before. The game is NOT for everyone, and trying to create a game that everyone will like just lessens the game, in my humble opinion.

DaveyC.4398:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

Casmurro.9046:

I dont think the example that the OP is bringing up is very relevant. He basically had to drag his girlfriend into playing gw2, he even had to buy the game for her. I bet that after 20 hours of playing the game she will get bored and stop playing, and no matter what changes you recommend that wont make her hold more attention to the game.

The game should catter to people that are interested in playing it, if you buy a game you should do a little research about what you are buying before spending money on it, and not expect to be hand-holded all the way through the game.

So, basically she doesnt know how mmos work, didnt even bother in buying a copy herself and after only a few hours she felt overwhelmed by everything the game has to offer so lets dumb down the game even more so more and more people that dont give a kitten about the game can complain less until they reach lvl 80 and get bored anyway.

QFT

Catering to those that aren’t going to hang around anyways makes me think they don’t want the kind of players that will end up staying for the long haul. I could understand making the starter zones in to proper tutorials to explain some of the things like dodging and combo fields that are completely different than other MMOs. The changes they did do though show a total disconnect from the playerbase.

Agree with all of the above. MMORPGs have a target audience. When you bring randoms off the street and watch them play the game, of course they’re going to be confused.

ANET’s problem is they don’t know what this game is on a fundamental level. If it was meant to be a farmville game, catered to as broad a swathe of the public as possible, the marketing and advertising departments failed heavily years ago at launch. I bought this game because I like the MMORPG genre, I have a fundamental understanding of what comes along with that genre, and I am the type of player who would have stuck around for a long time.

It’s like ANET made “Game of Thrones” and realized that it doesn’t cater to the “Teletubbies” crowd. Well, duh?

End game and new player experience are worlds apart. A new player experience can be informative without it restricting the level of end game.

I feel that the core reason most players are upset about the change is because the end game has been neglected.

Sure there are living world updates every couple of weeks but they hardly present a challenge to an experienced player.

I would love to see the underworld and FoW make a return, that would at least give some elitist content back into the game whilst sticking to the original lore.

Its not just that the end game has been neglected. Its also that these changes(the NPE and the traits especially) did not need to happen and they shouldn’t have happened. The game did not need dumbing down. It just needed better descriptions and some tutorial steps added to the starter zones. Adding a part in the starter zone where you get downed and have to fight to get up with instructions popping up would have been better than level gating getting downed. Adding a part where you have to do a combo field with detailed instructions and an explanation why, would be huge for a new player. Adding better descriptions to skills so that you know what kind of effects happen with each combo field/finisher would have been a huge help for even veteran players. Having a part in the starter zone with instructions where you have to dodge through an aoe trap to continue or it knocks you back would teach you the benefits to dodging. All of these could have easily been added to the starter zones and would remove tons of confusion and for a veteran on an alt they could go through them fast and ignore the instructions and not feel hindered. Only the downed part would be kind of slow but since we know what to do I don’t think anyone would mind it that much.

I personally never supported this change, nor I approve what’s happening to simply “help” new players understand the already simple game’s mechanics. The game was ridiculously easy from day one. Yes, some deaths were involved at first (my first char was an Elementalist), but it was easy to learn and familiarize with the game. It wasn’t a “Stay in one spot, spam 1, dead foe” game, it had variety, and what I treasured the most, was the fact that nothing I was doing aside from a minority of things was level gated.

But I’ll play the devil’s advocate on myself, as a coin has two sides…

I wouldn’t mind such a change, even the horrendous trait lock April brought, but only if it was my brand new character, on a brand new account. Take my time, get to know the game, unlock everything in the process, learn…. (was already easy to do so in the first place) …..the game’s mechanics, and enjoy the personal story from start to finish. Now that’s something almost any new player would’ve wanted.

Sadly, I’m not a new player, and seriously I can’t see myself struggling through a level gated nightmare if I dare to start a new character. 2 years of gameplay, 640+ levels on my back, and I’ve to “learn to dodge” for example?

So why not give a “Veteran” or “Enhanced Mode” option to an account who has let’s say leveled up a character (or two, or even five!) to 80, allowing him to avoid all that level gated nonsense/trait lock if he rolls a new character? I believe a player deserves a “Skip Tutorial” feature, don’t you think? Cause let’s face it, even a “newb” won’t stay a “newb” forever.

So basically what you are saying is, that someone who has never played a non-linear rpg-based videogame finds a non-linear rpg-based game confusing/overwhelming. How does one even respond to that? What’s A.Nets job here? Explaining new people the genre?