Guild Wars 2

For a real meltdown have her try SPvP. I’ve been PvPing since beta and I feel like I could use a little more instruction.

kokiman.2364:

So basically what you are saying is, that someone who has never played a non-linear rpg-based videogame finds a non-linear rpg-based game confusing/overwhelming. How does one even respond to that? What’s A.Nets job here? Explaining new people the genre?

Well, obviously they’re obligated to explain it in some degree: Imagine if there were no explanation for anything, and players had to figure it all out. How many would stay with the game? Add some tutorial and people will learn much faster, and be inclined to keep playing.

The more they explain in-game, the more people they can get understand it faster, which ultimately means more players and therefore money. There’s a balance they have to find, though, as there are some lengths to which it is not to their advantage to go in explaining the core ideas of the game and genre.

Andred.1087:

kokiman.2364:

So basically what you are saying is, that someone who has never played a non-linear rpg-based videogame finds a non-linear rpg-based game confusing/overwhelming. How does one even respond to that? What’s A.Nets job here? Explaining new people the genre?

Well, obviously they’re obligated to explain it in some degree: Imagine if there were no explanation for anything, and players had to figure it all out. How many would stay with the game? Add some tutorial and people will learn much faster, and be inclined to keep playing.

The more they explain in-game, the more people they can get understand it faster, which ultimately means more players and therefore money. There’s a balance they have to find, though, as there are some lengths to which it is not to their advantage to go in explaining the core ideas of the game and genre.

Well yeah that was my question what is A.Net’s job here? Should they explain all the basics of RPGs? In this case.. good luck this will take a while. And will eat up a lot of ressources. I mean jesus.. what’s so wrong about figuring stuff out on your own.

kokiman.2364:

what’s so wrong about figuring stuff out on your own.

That’s actually one of the most satisfying things one can do, games included. ;D

Asmodeus.5782:

kokiman.2364:

what’s so wrong about figuring stuff out on your own.

That’s actually one of the most satisfying things one can do, games included. ;D

I know right? But apparently it’s not. So confusing :S

Gaile Gray.6029:

Thanks for this feedback, it’s very informative!

and other new comers who posted here and said the opposite are not?

wwwes.1398:

I thought the changes were seriously dumbing things down until I started a new character in Wayfarer’s where I started my very first character, totally new to MMOs. And yeah, instant flashback. How do I feed these bears? What am I supposed to do next? Why are the people in my story instance not there now? And not learning what my other weapon skills did for a long time because it was just a rush of confusion. I remember not realizing that Wayfarer’s had a huge section to the north for way too long a time, I thought I was just supposed to spam everything in the lower area over and over!

I know how all this stuff works now, but at that moment I realized that I had forgotten that initial confusion. I don’t know if the new changes fix this stuff or not, only ANet does, but there was definitely an issue to be resolved.

I went to Wayfarer’s for dailies yesterday. How the heck do you feed the bears now?

Be prepared for this game to be dumped even more.

Bellizare.5816:

I went to Wayfarer’s for dailies yesterday. How the heck do you feed the bears now?

You don’t. Just be glad you don’t dance for them.

Direction and guidance is never bad. I don’t see anyone said otherwise. The dodge guide is good, so is the green arrow thing on top right. People even request MORE guide for combo field.

People just don’t like level gated things.

Bellizare.5816:

wwwes.1398:

I thought the changes were seriously dumbing things down until I started a new character in Wayfarer’s where I started my very first character, totally new to MMOs. And yeah, instant flashback. How do I feed these bears? What am I supposed to do next? Why are the people in my story instance not there now? And not learning what my other weapon skills did for a long time because it was just a rush of confusion. I remember not realizing that Wayfarer’s had a huge section to the north for way too long a time, I thought I was just supposed to spam everything in the lower area over and over!

I know how all this stuff works now, but at that moment I realized that I had forgotten that initial confusion. I don’t know if the new changes fix this stuff or not, only ANet does, but there was definitely an issue to be resolved.

I went to Wayfarer’s for dailies yesterday. How the heck do you feed the bears now?

What daily is there for feeding bears?

I don’t mind, Anet helping new mmo players. What I hate is that they destroyed EXISTING content to do it. They could have implemented a way to keep veterans happy. And they didn’t. Now they sacraficed one group for another. And I don’t agree with that. Especially since there was put manpower in the old heart quests. That manpower has now been wasted, since it was removed, and at the same more manpower was used to make the changes. (like they removed cow feeding, may sound simple, but I was a nice and fun thing you could do, wich is what a game is about and was removed). You worked double time, for the same thing (made it even worse for some players).

I really don’t get why they don’t look at gw1 as an example. Look at Nightfall game. When you get into the game you get a question ‘tutorial, yes or no’. If you join the tutorial, a lot of things are very easely, and clearly explained. You certainly get the hang of the basics. Here you still have to figure that out for yourself. What’s more, this instanced tutorial, kept both veterans and new players happy. It didn’t overwrite existing content, and gave players 100% choice in how they did want to start the game or a new character. I miss that way of thinking in Gw2.

You should work more efficient. Do the same work, but do it in such way you catch two birds in one grab. Like today I did arah story, and got 3 things out of it, rather then only 1. I got daily story dungeon ap out of it. I got the permanent story ap for it (Yes i haven’t completed arah story since launch on a character with the right story steps completed for it), and it unlocked arah pvp reward track. 3 birds in one grab. I did dungeon once, yet got triple rewards. You should start working like this Anet. If you did the NPE changes, in a way like it was in gw1: Nightfall, it might have costed the same time to implement, it would have added something to the game, and most of all, it probably would not have costed more time then what you did now. All I ask is instead of rushing onto stuff, and do it the simplistic way when you get orders is, think for a moment, ’isn’t there a better way to go at this, can’t we catch two birds at once’?

DaveyC.4398:

…
I think the point I am trying to make with this post is that most people who are moaning about the changes are not new to MMOs or GW2 and should think about what it would be like to start this game with no understanding of the mechanics or MMOs in general.
…

I am one of those players “moaning about the changes”. I was completely new to MMOs when I started playing GW2 2 years ago. Loved it from the beginning – not so much now.

zenleto.6179:

Bellizare.5816:

wwwes.1398:

I thought the changes were seriously dumbing things down until I started a new character in Wayfarer’s where I started my very first character, totally new to MMOs. And yeah, instant flashback. How do I feed these bears? What am I supposed to do next? Why are the people in my story instance not there now? And not learning what my other weapon skills did for a long time because it was just a rush of confusion. I remember not realizing that Wayfarer’s had a huge section to the north for way too long a time, I thought I was just supposed to spam everything in the lower area over and over!

I know how all this stuff works now, but at that moment I realized that I had forgotten that initial confusion. I don’t know if the new changes fix this stuff or not, only ANet does, but there was definitely an issue to be resolved.

I went to Wayfarer’s for dailies yesterday. How the heck do you feed the bears now?

What daily is there for feeding bears?

None, but there was one for four events in Nornville, so I dropped by. I was on a newish necro, and I didn’t have that heart yet.

Bellizare.5816:

zenleto.6179:

Bellizare.5816:

wwwes.1398:

I thought the changes were seriously dumbing things down until I started a new character in Wayfarer’s where I started my very first character, totally new to MMOs. And yeah, instant flashback. How do I feed these bears? What am I supposed to do next? Why are the people in my story instance not there now? And not learning what my other weapon skills did for a long time because it was just a rush of confusion. I remember not realizing that Wayfarer’s had a huge section to the north for way too long a time, I thought I was just supposed to spam everything in the lower area over and over!

I know how all this stuff works now, but at that moment I realized that I had forgotten that initial confusion. I don’t know if the new changes fix this stuff or not, only ANet does, but there was definitely an issue to be resolved.

I went to Wayfarer’s for dailies yesterday. How the heck do you feed the bears now?

What daily is there for feeding bears?

None, but there was one for four events in Nornville, so I dropped by. I was on a newish necro, and I didn’t have that heart yet.

Ah, of course. Put that down to having just woken up.

Not being able to feed the bears is way down my list of changes to Wayfarer I don’t like. There’s a heart been removed altogether, and there are rocks dogs on the map now! What’s with that? Rock dogs!! I don’t really care what they’ve done to the other starter maps (except the chess) but some of the changes to Wayfarer just have me stumped.

I have been leveling up yet another mesmer, this time in EoTM. I have around 15 or so characters and this is my first one with the new NPE.

At first, the lack of some functionality felt limiting.

Now, when I level up and see that icon in the corner, i’m excited to see what reward I get! Rare armor, breather, etc.

For me, as a serious veteran player, i really like this part of the system!

Allisa Wonderland.8192:

I have been leveling up yet another mesmer, this time in EoTM. I have around 15 or so characters and this is my first one with the new NPE.

At first, the lack of some functionality felt limiting.

Now, when I level up and see that icon in the corner, i’m excited to see what reward I get! Rare armor, breather, etc.

For me, as a serious veteran player, i really like this part of the system!

Well, for me the stats on the gear are all wrong, and I can’t salvage or sell it, so…..

Edited to add that I really like your name.

zenleto.6179:

Bellizare.5816:

zenleto.6179:

Bellizare.5816:

wwwes.1398:

I thought the changes were seriously dumbing things down until I started a new character in Wayfarer’s where I started my very first character, totally new to MMOs. And yeah, instant flashback. How do I feed these bears? What am I supposed to do next? Why are the people in my story instance not there now? And not learning what my other weapon skills did for a long time because it was just a rush of confusion. I remember not realizing that Wayfarer’s had a huge section to the north for way too long a time, I thought I was just supposed to spam everything in the lower area over and over!

I know how all this stuff works now, but at that moment I realized that I had forgotten that initial confusion. I don’t know if the new changes fix this stuff or not, only ANet does, but there was definitely an issue to be resolved.

I went to Wayfarer’s for dailies yesterday. How the heck do you feed the bears now?

What daily is there for feeding bears?

None, but there was one for four events in Nornville, so I dropped by. I was on a newish necro, and I didn’t have that heart yet.

Ah, of course. Put that down to having just woken up.

Not being able to feed the bears is way down my list of changes to Wayfarer I don’t like. There’s a heart been removed altogether, and there are rocks dogs on the map now! What’s with that? Rock dogs!! I don’t really care what they’ve done to the other starter maps (except the chess) but some of the changes to Wayfarer just have me stumped.

I’ve done the Norn zones, but to be honest I am more familiar with Asura, Sylvari and Human (of course.) Still, Wayfarer seemed like half thought through and incomplete post patch.

Vayne.8563:

It goes even deeper than that. One of my friends played Guild Wars 1 with me and couldn’t get into Guild Wars 2, because it’s not linear. He only plays and understand linear games. Guild Wars 1 pretty much always told you exactly where to go. Guild Wars 2 doesn’t really. He found it very frustrating.

I talked him into coming back and trying it again, and he liked the new version much better. It was better for him because he felt he had some direction.

Obviously it’s not better for me. I know the kitten ed game already.

Except for it does always tell you where to go. All they have to do is read the information presented to them on the screen. Hell, the initial area you show up in once you create a new character is linear and teaches you about the green dots.

If your friend was having trouble understanding the game it’s because he was impatient with it and didn’t take the time to read anything or try to figure it out on his own. He probably expected it to be like a modern console game that tells you what you’re supposed to do every 5 seconds.

That sounds like a load of nonsense to me.

Olvendred.3027:

OP gets girlfriend to try game (with NPE).
Girlfriend still confused by everything.
Conclusion: NPE doesn’t work at intended goal.

Afya.5842:

Direction and guidance is never bad. I don’t see anyone said otherwise. The dodge guide is good, so is the green arrow thing on top right. People even request MORE guide for combo field.

People just don’t like level gated things.

There may be a problem with pacing information to the player, however, pacing is only one of the factors that can cause confusion to new players. The NPE goes to the extreme in slowing the pacing of new information to new players, yet still fails in many places. This is because the issue of pacing is overblown and overshadows other flaws in the game’s ability to teach players.

Arena net seems to have focused in only a single aspect of allowing a player to learn and seem to believe that is the only problem with the game. Pacing allows a player time to practice and learn any previously taught features, so it is important to give players time to learn one or two features, but the new NPE fails in many other ways.

One of the problems is how the game unlocks new features for the player. They are currently level restricted. Levels do not correlate with how well a player has learned the game. You can earn any number of levels, even if you refuse to use anything other than auto attack and grinding mobs. You can get to any level even if you only learned to move around and tap 1 to initiate auto attacking. It would be super slow and unlikely, but it is possible. In fact, many people jokingly say that many level 80 only know how to do this. This is an extreme example but, the point is, the level gating doesn’t cause any teaching to go on. It simply makes it slightly more likely that someone will spontaneously learn something or ‘figure it out’ before new features are given to them. Relying on people to ‘figure it out’, however is not reliable at all. Leveling doesn’t mean someone has figured something out, it just means that they have played long enough to level. Therefore the idea of pacing with leveling is foolish.

The other problem, as you may have guessed, is that a lot of the basic functionality is left to figuring it out. Compound that on the degradation of the hint system with this update (my annecdotal argument here https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Leveling-as-a-Reward-Experience-Crippling/page/9#post4420522) , and the general lack of actual tutorials and one realizes the game is horrible at teaching players how to play. The hint system was not a valid tutorial, and the butchering of the hint system into level ups, not only made it worse, but it did nothing to create a valid tutorial for the game. The problem here, is that, no matter how far you spread out unlocking features, the player may never learn something, and have it reinforced, without the game actively trying to push a player to use something. No matter how much you spread it out, the amount of missed, or unlearned, details about gameplay will build up to the point that the player gets confused.

Level gating only delays the build up of missed details such that player confusion gets delayed a few more hours into the game. It however doesn’t actually prevent it from happening. The truth of the matter, is everything the NPE does, is simply slowing down the confusion, but not stopping it. The goal shouldn’t be spreading out confusion, it should be preventing it from occurring in the first place. The NPE doesn’t do anything to help new players. It just slows the game down, which might mitigate the build up of confusing aspects, but doesn’t solve the issues at hand.

There are also a couple things about the NPE that disturb my rational mind. One, they degraded accessibility to hints which makes things more confusing. Two, they force early levels (< 10) out of the linear, more controllable, easier to follow, personal story, and into the uncontrollable, non-linear open world. This is despite peoples concern that the open world contributes to confusing new players in the game. The open world is more confusing to new players, so my question is. Did Anet not realize that locking the first chapter of the personal story entirely contradicts their desire to make the early game less confusing? It is absurd to say we want to make things easier for new players, while at the same time making two big changes that effectively cripple the player from having a controlled space with clear directions to learn the game.

The two posts I’ve quoted are right on the target. The gating has failed, and the game needs to focus on guidance over gating. Everything I have said may be theoretical. But the Idea that pacing is THE problem for new players is absurdly simplistic.

First of all, nice that there are also positive experiences about this new change. Guild Wars 2 in my eyes is more casual MMO than many other it’s rival in terms of demand of commitment that it asks from players.

Still my opinion is that figuring out things by yourself is the most surprising and fun method to play sandbox/MMO games. As minimum guiding hands as possible.

Real girls don’t need hand holding through entry level content.

I can see how your first MMORPG can be a bit confusing at the beginning. But the thing is, different game types are enjoyed by different people.

I understand how the things you brought up can be very confusing at first, but I do not understand how this can cause any major frustration. I just grew into it in my first game of this type.

Chances are, telling by your GF´s reaction, she will just not enjoy this type of game even when she has managed to understand its various aspects. That is in no way insinuating she is stupid or something like that. You say she likes Sim City. Those kind of games are very complex (at least they used to be, no idea about the latest iteration) and you do not grasp all concepts on your first “playthrough” usually. Still, some people enjoy those too.

If you twist a game into something liked by people who usually dislike this type of game, it will stop being this type of game, to the detriment of the people who liked it originally.

Algreg.3629:

I can see how your first MMORPG can be a bit confusing at the beginning. But the thing is, different game types are enjoyed by different people.

I understand how the things you brought up can be very confusing at first, but I do not understand how this can cause any major frustration. I just grew into it in my first game of this type.

Chances are, telling by your GF´s reaction, she will just not enjoy this type of game even when she has managed to understand its various aspects. That is in no way insinuating she is stupid or something like that. You say she likes Sim City. Those kind of games are very complex (at least they used to be, no idea about the latest iteration) and you do not grasp all concepts on your first “playthrough” usually. Still, some people enjoy those too.

If you twist a game into something liked by people who usually dislike this type of game, it will stop being this type of game, to the detriment of the people who liked it originally.

But if you change the first ten levels to something that might get new people into this type of game who never would have tried it before, then that’s fine.

Anet hasn’t really changed the core game. The dungeons are still dungeons. The fractals are still fractals. The new zone has harder PvE than older zones,. with new creatures.

Anet isn’t changing the game. They’re changing the introdution to the game to be more forgiving.

I’m not sure why so many seem to think that’s a big deal or a bad thing.

fireflyry.7023:

I’m over this “lets gently nestle the new gamers into a soft blanket of fluffy unicorn feathers…are they ok?….well at level 2 lets give them a yummy goody gum drop lemony sweetie!!…are they ok?… well at level 3….”

Kitten that!!!

Seriously….what the hell is going on here? Computer games should be marketed at computer game buyers and game players. Not dictated by the “fringe” market of people that have never played such a game or don’t even give two kittens about such games.

What? That’s one of the few times you get to see an Anet rep here? “Oh yay baby took her first step…game going good!!!!”

Anet is seriously delusional at the moment.

As much as I don’t like to admit it, this is exactly what the NPE feels like. This kind of mollycoddling and cossetting is really unnecessary to people who know the game, and as the OP has mentioned, even the new players don’t get it.

My experience? I’m taking my last alt (engi) through the game at the moment, but having 7 other L80’s I feel I’m severely hamstrung by the game’s low-level mechanics that have been recently introduced. There’s limitations to be found everywhere now, when there were none pre-9/9.

Babying people through a game isn’t the way to go about it. If you want player retention then you’re approaching it from the wrong end, regardless of what your metrics have to say about it. Improve the endgame and make some new areas for people established in the game to explore, and feel like it’s worthwhile logging in to play for once.

As for the newbies, we all had to learn somehow. The veterans in this game didn’t get to where they are right now by getting spoonfed and having their hand held every step of the way, there was a simple hint system in place for that. Some likeness of a tutorial for stuff like how to do combo’s and such (more advanced game mechanics) would have been nice, and I think is something Anet would benefit from greatly if they could work on it.

New players — figuring stuff out for yourselves is possibly the last great freedom we have; use that freedom. It really is a joy to teach yourself something new.

joe.7684:

Asmodeus.5782:

Yenrah.8532:

Was I confused at some points? Of course! Did I die a lot? Hell I did! Did the hungry bunnies beat the crap out of me? You wouldn’t believe! And all of this felt great.

I really feel sorry for those bunnies. After the lobotomy they are a sad, lethargic bunch…

Except that the hungry bunnies do still knock you over if you’re not careful. I know this for a fact because it happened to my newest character the other day when I did that particular renown heart, which is now located at the bottom of the cliff in Taigan Groves. And, in point of fact, I have no quarrel with it. The renown heart as it was previously was quite tedious and the bunnies were really a bit too active, plus which you ran the risk of falling to your death if you were in the wrong spot. This new version goes a lot faster. (I also notice that nobody seems to have commented on the new state of the renown heart involving trade with the jotun. There are a lot of low-level enemies there now which makes the heart go much faster because you can kill them to get it done and get XP in the process, which IMO greatly improves that heart, which previously was the most boring one in Wayfarer.)

Cos game experiance is about getting everything faster. FASTER, MORE NUMBERS NOW GO GO GO
No, sorry, I hate the fact that they dumbed down jotuns, too. Don’t bother trading with jotuns, it doesn’t matter that it’s what the heart’s about, waste of time, run around slaying wolves! Sorry but there are hundreds of hearts where you just kill things. This one was different and that was good.
Bunnies required fast learning how to dodge in the best way possible. Now you just get knocked once, oh well, you get another bag and the heart’s done. Cool.

Yenrah.8532:

joe.7684:

Asmodeus.5782:

Yenrah.8532:

Was I confused at some points? Of course! Did I die a lot? Hell I did! Did the hungry bunnies beat the crap out of me? You wouldn’t believe! And all of this felt great.

I really feel sorry for those bunnies. After the lobotomy they are a sad, lethargic bunch…

Except that the hungry bunnies do still knock you over if you’re not careful. I know this for a fact because it happened to my newest character the other day when I did that particular renown heart, which is now located at the bottom of the cliff in Taigan Groves. And, in point of fact, I have no quarrel with it. The renown heart as it was previously was quite tedious and the bunnies were really a bit too active, plus which you ran the risk of falling to your death if you were in the wrong spot. This new version goes a lot faster. (I also notice that nobody seems to have commented on the new state of the renown heart involving trade with the jotun. There are a lot of low-level enemies there now which makes the heart go much faster because you can kill them to get it done and get XP in the process, which IMO greatly improves that heart, which previously was the most boring one in Wayfarer.)

Cos game experiance is about getting everything faster. FASTER, MORE NUMBERS NOW GO GO GO
No, sorry, I hate the fact that they dumbed down jotuns, too. Don’t bother trading with jotuns, it doesn’t matter that it’s what the heart’s about, waste of time, run around slaying wolves! Sorry but there are hundreds of hearts where you just kill things. This one was different and that was good.
Bunnies required fast learning how to dodge in the best way possible. Now you just get knocked once, oh well, you get another bag and the heart’s done. Cool.

People keep saying more freedom is better, but then you have a heart like that with almost no freedom. Almost every heart has more than one way to finish them. Not all, but most. That’s freedom. People keep arguing that the new NPE is anti-freedom, and then they give people more freedom in a heart and people complain.

I’ve got 18 80th level characters and I’m well on my way to 20. I don’t ever want to trade again, thanks.

I like it better like it is now.

Maybe its already been expressed, but i think if they would have coded it, so that players who already have level 80 characters, didn’t have to experience the “NPE”, then it would have been just fine. I don’t think the NPE is bad for brand spankin new players, its just uber boring for veteran players.

Vayne.8563:

People keep saying more freedom is better, but then you have a heart like that with almost no freedom. Almost every heart has more than one way to finish them. Not all, but most. That’s freedom. People keep arguing that the new NPE is anti-freedom, and then they give people more freedom in a heart and people complain.

I’ve got 18 80th level characters and I’m well on my way to 20. I don’t ever want to trade again, thanks.

I like it better like it is now.

Oh for goodness sake, don’t start with “FREEDOOOOOOM!”. If you like it as it is, good for you! This heart isn’t in question here. Nothing was destroyed. Joe apparently used it as a proof that that changes to hearts were perfect, so I answered that I don’t see it quite the same way. End of story. I never said it should be changed back. Do it the way you wish. The heart that we discussed involved hungry bunnies that used to be awesome and now are just sad. I wouldn’t mind if they added alternative way to copmlete it, as they did for Jotuns. I do mind that they destroyed it’s mechanics.

DaveyC.4398:

At this point she had what can be described as a mini melt down as to how confusing the requirements are. She got very frustrated at not knowing what the armour types are for, what to do with loot, why we have bank storage, what to do with crafting materials, why we needed crafting materials, what the purpose of food buffs are and all of the things that a seasoned MMO player would know instinctively.

She felt that the game did not do a good job of explaining these elements during the initial game play.

Based on my girlfriends experience so far, I believe that the changes to the NPE are most definitely a good idea as having everything available from the get go would have been even more overwhelming.

I also believe that the NPE should introduce some of the points mentioned above at an earlier stage so her confusion could have been minimised.

You see, that’s my problem with the NPE. It gates or removes simple things, such as interacting with bundles or elite skills. It does little to nothing to explain the difficult things, like how character-building works. I – someone who has played a lot of RPGs and GW2 – still have to go to the Wiki to dig info. Some things are still missing from the game entirely.

Let’s look at the Skills tab on the Hero panel. It has descriptions of all your skills, right? If you want to know how Downed skills work, you’ve got to go to the Skills tab, right? Wrong. Downed state skills, transformation skills and Death Shroud skills are still missing from it. You still can’t sort skills in any way. It’s a mess. If you ask me, how skills work is pretty important in GW2, but the game does a miserable job explaining it.

Instead of making the Skills panel informative, ANet gated the Downed state to lvl 5. What’s that going to accomplish? You get to lvl 5 almost immediately. It doesn’t make any sense. It doesn’t explain anything, except now you get a small bit of text that most players will not read properly and/or will forget in a couple of minutes. Then they still get downed and lie there without knowing what to do, because they just got four new skills they’re unlikely to understand before the timer runs out.

GW2 needs an in-game Skills menu that can be sorted and includes every single skill that character can use. It needs an in-game combo field table. It needs cleaner particle effects, so a newbie could see what’s going on. It needs an in-game explanation of how condition stacks work. I bet many don’t even know the stacks aren’t personal and think they’re doing some damage to the Shatterer with their awesome 25 stacks of Bleed. Instead, GW2 got more level gating, because having three Utility skills instead of two is so confusing.

fireflyry.7023:

Personalizing such things, while cute, ignores a larger relevance and impact.

Personally I think hand-holding at the expense of initial in-game freedom to be a huge loss in regards to what was one of GW’s biggest selling points. Not only that but gaming at large should put gamers first, the people that buy and play games a lot…not people that have never played such games before at the expense of those that have imo. Not in this day and age at least.10 years ago and I would agree.

Cater to yes, dictate the leveling experience? Not so much.

There is also another aspect which is the community. I have played a few games which were not initially welcoming to a new player in mechanics and dogma but it was the community that taught me the ins and outs of the world in question and the mechanics involved.

That to me is the definition of a good MMO. Not the NPE.

What I mean is a tough game tends to breed a welcoming and helpful community. A dumbed down game tends to breed impatience and rudeness.

I agree with you, the easier that they make the game, the more hand-holding elements they put in, and the more they cater to the casual new comer the more impatient and rude people get, try standing in Lions Arch and see someone ask a question, and immediately get slammed with, " WIKI " or " GOOGLE IT " ect. not to mention being in a Dungeon or Fractal and people will kick you if you don’t know how to do something, now people might be like, " Well thats why this NPE was put into place, to teach people things ". Well the easier you make it, the dumber it becomes, to losing that feeling of it being a challenge and people leaving to find a more challenging game. I love you ANET I really do, but please, stop catering to the people who cry at every opportunity about something being too hard or a class being " OP ", I loved GW1 and was hoping GW2 would transcend that level of love and bring even more fun times with it, but it feels like your turning this game into some Elementary school kids game.

DaveyC.4398:

At this point she had what can be described as a mini melt down as to how confusing the requirements are. She got very frustrated at not knowing what the armour types are for, what to do with loot, why we have bank storage, what to do with crafting materials, why we needed crafting materials, what the purpose of food buffs are and all of the things that a seasoned MMO player would know instinctively.

She shouldn’t feel too left out even a seasoned veteran of “Guild Wars 1” logging over 8700 hours when moving over to Guild Wars 2 found some of these things baffling, and yes I found issues understanding to various levels of difficulty everything on her list.

With 50 or so days under my belt 3 level 80s and a few half way there, I am still quite lost on some aspects because they aren’t clearly defined;

Wiki For example does a great job of saying what they are, but the game itself doesn’t guide ‘per’ class in which direction to go to be most efficient.
Power – Increases all damage inflicted by the character.
Precision – Increases critical hit chance.
Toughness – Decreases the amount of incoming damage suffered by the character.
Vitality – Increases maximum health.

I think it was around the 45th day I finally figured out what the trait system was all about and why it is important.

I really personally don’t see all the fuss, we love the game we should want more playing it and we should be making it easy to pick up, but progress in complexity.

This is by the way by no means my first MMO my first was “Baldur’s Gate”.

DaveyC.4398:

Crovax.7854:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Thanks for this feedback, it’s very informative!

What rubs me the wrong way is that this looks like a confirmation by an Anet official that this is exactly the kind of player they want to appeal to…

I’d just love a clarification if this is the route this game will take from now on (/since a few patches ago) or if we can expect some changes and additions that aren’t targetted at people who are overwhelmed by bank space (what?!).

See the thing is I have been playing this game since the beta and have invested close to 2000 hours in game.

I more than anyone would like to see changes that would affect end game users.

I have no problems with new players joining a game as ultimately, that’s how a community grows.

I also work for a software company and have been involved with blended learning for over 8 years. As a result I understand that the core founding’s of an application need to be in order before significant changes can be made that will impact experienced users, after all if you are experienced, you already know the basics…

You are not a new player and cannot appreciate the view of a new user. This patch was not tailored to veterans, it was aimed at improvements to people who are new.

This does not mean that improvements for veterans will not come, its just that improvements come from the ground up.

Here’s the thing,
when I was a kid and i got my first bike, I didn’t get one with training wheels. My “training wheels” was my dad holding the back of the seat as i learned how to center my weight on the seat. At some point he let go and didn’t tell me, and I flopped right off the thing. I didn’t get angry at him and refuse to ride the bike since he told me I went a good 20 feet without him there. All I did was tell him to warn me when he let go. The next time, he did and I made an effort to keep myself righted on my own and never needed his help riding a bike after that.

While i’m all for certain parts of the gameplay being worked into the environment for early level learning, I feel like they’ve brought the 1-15 areas (or rather the 1-7 level parts of them) down to a pre-school level, then shift it to about 5th grade level with no real warning, whereas before the NPE I felt it was more of a gradual 2-8th grade progression through the 1-15 areas. In essence all they really needed to add to the NPE was better reward progression and explanations of things to do and how to do them. They still need to add proper dodge tutorials and combo field lessons.

I’ve already suggested elswhere in one of these kitten posts about using an Ettin type trainer/heart thing to teach the dodging, and I’m sure there are other skill challenges (perhaps the one by the floating wizards island) where combo fields and advanced dodging can be taught.

Also, I’m sorry, but confused by banks and storage/crafting materials? Other than Anet needing to maybe show mew players where to go to see/store those items and then an actual tutorial on how to craft at the crafting tables when first getting your initial crafting profession, new players need to take it upon themselves to talk to NPCs and read what they have to say. Also, as everyone else has done for YEARS: ask in map and consult the wiki. The information is out there. its best they get used to looking up things in the wiki early on anyway since thats the only way they are going to have any idea where to go to get half of their traits anyway.

In 10 years we will be playing mario bros and calling it mmorpg but at least every single person on earth would know how to play it before reading anything else.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

DaveyC.4398:

Crovax.7854:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Thanks for this feedback, it’s very informative!

What rubs me the wrong way is that this looks like a confirmation by an Anet official that this is exactly the kind of player they want to appeal to…

I’d just love a clarification if this is the route this game will take from now on (/since a few patches ago) or if we can expect some changes and additions that aren’t targetted at people who are overwhelmed by bank space (what?!).

See the thing is I have been playing this game since the beta and have invested close to 2000 hours in game.

I more than anyone would like to see changes that would affect end game users.

I have no problems with new players joining a game as ultimately, that’s how a community grows.

I also work for a software company and have been involved with blended learning for over 8 years. As a result I understand that the core founding’s of an application need to be in order before significant changes can be made that will impact experienced users, after all if you are experienced, you already know the basics…

You are not a new player and cannot appreciate the view of a new user. This patch was not tailored to veterans, it was aimed at improvements to people who are new.

This does not mean that improvements for veterans will not come, its just that improvements come from the ground up.

Here’s the thing,
when I was a kid and i got my first bike, I didn’t get one with training wheels. My “training wheels” was my dad holding the back of the seat as i learned how to center my weight on the seat. At some point he let go and didn’t tell me, and I flopped right off the thing. I didn’t get angry at him and refuse to ride the bike since he told me I went a good 20 feet without him there. All I did was tell him to warn me when he let go. The next time, he did and I made an effort to keep myself righted on my own and never needed his help riding a bike after that.

While i’m all for certain parts of the gameplay being worked into the environment for early level learning, I feel like they’ve brought the 1-15 areas (or rather the 1-7 level parts of them) down to a pre-school level, then shift it to about 5th grade level with no real warning, whereas before the NPE I felt it was more of a gradual 2-8th grade progression through the 1-15 areas. In essence all they really needed to add to the NPE was better reward progression and explanations of things to do and how to do them. They still need to add proper dodge tutorials and combo field lessons.

I’ve already suggested elswhere in one of these kitten posts about using an Ettin type trainer/heart thing to teach the dodging, and I’m sure there are other skill challenges (perhaps the one by the floating wizards island) where combo fields and advanced dodging can be taught.

Also, I’m sorry, but confused by banks and storage/crafting materials? Other than Anet needing to maybe show mew players where to go to see/store those items and then an actual tutorial on how to craft at the crafting tables when first getting your initial crafting profession, new players need to take it upon themselves to talk to NPCs and read what they have to say. Also, as everyone else has done for YEARS: ask in map and consult the wiki. The information is out there. its best they get used to looking up things in the wiki early on anyway since thats the only way they are going to have any idea where to go to get half of their traits anyway.

They’re taking icons new players don’t need off the maps in order so that they can focus on the icons they’re supposed to focus on. I learned to ride a bike the same way you did. My dad was a big believer in going out and doing stuff yourself and try and if you fall off, get back on again.

It doesn’t change the fact that a lot of dads aren’t like that and a lot of people weren’t raised that way.

Some people need more guidance, or more encouragement or more direction. They need to assimilate stuff more slowly. And there’s nothing wrong with that.

Bellizare.5816:

Allisa Wonderland.8192:

I have been leveling up yet another mesmer, this time in EoTM. I have around 15 or so characters and this is my first one with the new NPE.

At first, the lack of some functionality felt limiting.

Now, when I level up and see that icon in the corner, i’m excited to see what reward I get! Rare armor, breather, etc.

For me, as a serious veteran player, i really like this part of the system!

Well, for me the stats on the gear are all wrong, and I can’t salvage or sell it, so…..

Edited to add that I really like your name.

1. Thanks

2. Other that a brief bout with condition, I have. Een seeing power/prec options for te rares, which worka fine for me. What stats are you after?

Vayne.8563:

They’re taking icons new players don’t need off the maps in order so that they can focus on the icons they’re supposed to focus on. I learned to ride a bike the same way you did. My dad was a big believer in going out and doing stuff yourself and try and if you fall off, get back on again.

It doesn’t change the fact that a lot of dads aren’t like that and a lot of people weren’t raised that way.

Some people need more guidance, or more encouragement or more direction. They need to assimilate stuff more slowly. And there’s nothing wrong with that.

I know what the NPE looks like to a brand new player though. I made the free account specifically to see it with “new” eyes. The problems I ran into though were jarring to me (a vet), and I could just imagine how jarring it would be for a brand spanking new player. To continue the bike analogy real fast, it would be as if you had training wheels on the bike and after riding for a block, someone suddenly threw some confetti at you, but you had no idea why, then after a few more blocks and some more confetti at random points someone blasts an airhorn in your face and hands you a small present for going 10 blocks. No explanation WHY you got the confetti and the small present, just that you got it. This is what “finding” POIs that you can’t see and doing dailies or monthlies before they are made visible to you is like for a new player. Not to mention the frustration of seeing someone walk up to a skill point communing spot, do something funky and have that plum of light shoot up around them and when you get there it tells you that its not for you. No explanation. Just not for you. Or when you see someone who knows what a Vista is running up to it and an icon appear above their head, you still may not know what its there for or if you should check it out because the icon isn’t there. Then suddenly…ICONS. Then suddenly…SKILL POINTS. Then suddenly…wait, i though there wre training wheels on this bike. Nope, those were just torn off and you have a personal story to start now that you have your last weapon skill unlocked on your bar. Oh, and those other weapons you have…yeah, those might be fun. Learn them while you do that story. Good luck.

That, to me, is a broken system that does nothing but hurt a new player.

i think for allot of players that never done a mmorpg in there life and stile wanna try it found them self in a situation what must i do ??

there is very less explaining in most mmorpg what all things are for

loot the crafting skills upgrading story dungeons and so on
there is so much you can do in a mmorpg that you might lose track

my first mmorpg was a 2D very very basic
very few quest no crafting no pvp only kill mops over and over again til you gain 1 lvl

then i saw allot off players standing together spamming there stuff to sell
then i figure out there is more then killing mobs

and later i found other mmorpg with a more complex system

i think for players that never play any mmorpg in there life is to start with a basic 1
GW2 is a very complex mmorpg you must no alot of mmorpg games

ore you will not enjoy it

sorry for my bad english

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Vayne.8563:

They’re taking icons new players don’t need off the maps in order so that they can focus on the icons they’re supposed to focus on. I learned to ride a bike the same way you did. My dad was a big believer in going out and doing stuff yourself and try and if you fall off, get back on again.

It doesn’t change the fact that a lot of dads aren’t like that and a lot of people weren’t raised that way.

Some people need more guidance, or more encouragement or more direction. They need to assimilate stuff more slowly. And there’s nothing wrong with that.

I know what the NPE looks like to a brand new player though. I made the free account specifically to see it with “new” eyes. The problems I ran into though were jarring to me (a vet), and I could just imagine how jarring it would be for a brand spanking new player. To continue the bike analogy real fast, it would be as if you had training wheels on the bike and after riding for a block, someone suddenly threw some confetti at you, but you had no idea why, then after a few more blocks and some more confetti at random points someone blasts an airhorn in your face and hands you a small present for going 10 blocks. No explanation WHY you got the confetti and the small present, just that you got it. This is what “finding” POIs that you can’t see and doing dailies or monthlies before they are made visible to you is like for a new player. Not to mention the frustration of seeing someone walk up to a skill point communing spot, do something funky and have that plum of light shoot up around them and when you get there it tells you that its not for you. No explanation. Just not for you. Or when you see someone who knows what a Vista is running up to it and an icon appear above their head, you still may not know what its there for or if you should check it out because the icon isn’t there. Then suddenly…ICONS. Then suddenly…SKILL POINTS. Then suddenly…wait, i though there wre training wheels on this bike. Nope, those were just torn off and you have a personal story to start now that you have your last weapon skill unlocked on your bar. Oh, and those other weapons you have…yeah, those might be fun. Learn them while you do that story. Good luck.

That, to me, is a broken system that does nothing but hurt a new player.

Well, as I said, at least one of my friends likes it better and feels it explains the game better than the old system. But you know, he’s one guy. It might be that some people will find it worse and some people will find it better.

Supposedly Anet tested it. This free weekend will give them the answers they need. I’m sure if they have to tweak it they will.

There is something to be said for ‘pre-Searing’ you could opt out almost the instant you entered and continue on and leave the tutorial area alone, every expansion had one of sorts except of course for EOTN, I’m wondering if GW2 would have benefited from a similar area too.

The problem is the beginner systems are being enforced upon those that know the game with no option to opt out.

aerial.7021:

There is something to be said for ‘pre-Searing’ you could opt out almost the instant you entered and continue on and leave the tutorial area alone, every expansion had one of sorts except of course for EOTN, I’m wondering if GW2 would have benefited from a similar area too.

The problem is the beginner systems are being enforced upon those that know the game with no option to opt out.

The way I opt out is not create any new characters.

Vayne.8563:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Vayne.8563:

They’re taking icons new players don’t need off the maps in order so that they can focus on the icons they’re supposed to focus on. I learned to ride a bike the same way you did. My dad was a big believer in going out and doing stuff yourself and try and if you fall off, get back on again.

It doesn’t change the fact that a lot of dads aren’t like that and a lot of people weren’t raised that way.

Some people need more guidance, or more encouragement or more direction. They need to assimilate stuff more slowly. And there’s nothing wrong with that.

I know what the NPE looks like to a brand new player though. I made the free account specifically to see it with “new” eyes. The problems I ran into though were jarring to me (a vet), and I could just imagine how jarring it would be for a brand spanking new player. To continue the bike analogy real fast, it would be as if you had training wheels on the bike and after riding for a block, someone suddenly threw some confetti at you, but you had no idea why, then after a few more blocks and some more confetti at random points someone blasts an airhorn in your face and hands you a small present for going 10 blocks. No explanation WHY you got the confetti and the small present, just that you got it. This is what “finding” POIs that you can’t see and doing dailies or monthlies before they are made visible to you is like for a new player. Not to mention the frustration of seeing someone walk up to a skill point communing spot, do something funky and have that plum of light shoot up around them and when you get there it tells you that its not for you. No explanation. Just not for you. Or when you see someone who knows what a Vista is running up to it and an icon appear above their head, you still may not know what its there for or if you should check it out because the icon isn’t there. Then suddenly…ICONS. Then suddenly…SKILL POINTS. Then suddenly…wait, i though there wre training wheels on this bike. Nope, those were just torn off and you have a personal story to start now that you have your last weapon skill unlocked on your bar. Oh, and those other weapons you have…yeah, those might be fun. Learn them while you do that story. Good luck.

That, to me, is a broken system that does nothing but hurt a new player.

Well, as I said, at least one of my friends likes it better and feels it explains the game better than the old system. But you know, he’s one guy. It might be that some people will find it worse and some people will find it better.

Supposedly Anet tested it. This free weekend will give them the answers they need. I’m sure if they have to tweak it they will.

If they don’t do surveys on those free weekend accounts then they won’t get any answers. How can you find out what someone likes or dislikes with out asking? Only things the metrics will show is what they did and for how long. Not why.

Its like saying the EotM is a great addition to the game because the metrics show tons of players there. Well when you make the rewards 10x better than the other wvw maps and one of the best farms in the game of course it will have the players. Its not because they like it though, its because they like rewards. If you switched the rate of rewards between the other WvW maps and EotM I guarantee you EotM would be empty compared to the other maps. They want the metrics to show how successful it is though. So they will keep EotM karma train and leave the other WvW maps untouched.
This is why they won’t do surveys. They don’t want the why because it will change the results of their made up metrics. The BS and metrics may work on the higher ups but the players are getting tired of it. With out the players there won’t be a game for them to make up metrics for.

Lazuli.2098:

aerial.7021:

There is something to be said for ‘pre-Searing’ you could opt out almost the instant you entered and continue on and leave the tutorial area alone, every expansion had one of sorts except of course for EOTN, I’m wondering if GW2 would have benefited from a similar area too.

The problem is the beginner systems are being enforced upon those that know the game with no option to opt out.

The way I opt out is not create any new characters.

Now you see that doesn’t effect me and it should have the NPE hit directly in the middle of my experience of the game, I’d only just brought it and level an Ele to 80, after the patch I leveled another 2, I just simply adapted.

Could it be as simple as one player wants the experience and another just wants to level ? because they are radically different ways of playing the game.

aerial.7021:

…
Could it be as simple as one player wants the experience and another just wants to level ? because they are radically different ways of playing the game.

Yes I enjoyed leveling my 10 characters to level 80 under the pre-April version of the game but I opt out of leveling under this new system by not buying any more character slots. Those who didn’t or don’t enjoy leveling but want another character I guess EotM would work to get their character to level 80 (although I don’t know since I’ve never been there).

I wonder the comments ,saying too troublesome for experienced players ?.
They dont have any of the instant level 20 scrolls or level gain scrolls .
Find that hard to believe I keep getting them dont need them so just throw away .

Lazuli.2098:

aerial.7021:

…
Could it be as simple as one player wants the experience and another just wants to level ? because they are radically different ways of playing the game.

Yes I enjoyed leveling my 10 characters to level 80 under the pre-April version of the game but I opt out of leveling under this new system by not buying any more character slots. Those who didn’t or don’t enjoy leveling but want another character I guess EotM would work to get their character to level 80 (although I don’t know since I’ve never been there).

I’ve been EotM, I ended up having more fun jumping off the edge of the mists (repeatedly & videoed) than engaging in the game mechanic, but that’s me I’m not a competitive person at all.

Middzz.1490:

I wonder the comments ,saying too troublesome for experienced players ?.
They dont have any of the instant level 20 scrolls or level gain scrolls .
Find that hard to believe I keep getting them dont need them so just throw away .

Now that’s just sacrilege! what a shame you can’t put them on the TP

Middzz.1490:

Find that hard to believe I keep getting them dont need them so just throw away .

Don’t do that! Use them to key farm.

I haven’t seen any dev posts actually responding directly to criticism, only to occurrences that were bugs. The majority of those (“negative”) threads went unanswered. I wasn’t around to see where the 50+ page thread of complaints went after consolidation. But that they seem slow to respond to criticism and quick to respond to praise is just frustrating. There might be some post on the forums where a dev (or several) may have said “Hey we’re sorry we made the early game a dreadful drag, here’s what we’re gonna do to fix it” but I have not seen that post anywhere.

I don’t want to argue and derail. A lot of people posting in here made good points. I just got the same frustrating impression aop did.

KeikaStrife.6147:

I haven’t seen any dev posts actually responding directly to criticism, only to occurrences that were bugs. The majority of those (“negative”) threads went unanswered. I wasn’t around to see where the 50+ page thread of complaints went after consolidation. But that they seem slow to respond to criticism and quick to respond to praise is just frustrating. There might be some post on the forums where a dev (or several) may have said “Hey we’re sorry we made the early game a dreadful drag, here’s what we’re gonna do to fix it” but I have not seen that post anywhere.

I don’t want to argue and derail. A lot of people posting in here made good points. I just got the same frustrating impression aop did.

Gaile wasn’t responding to praise, she was responding to very clear and thoughtful feedback. The OP had both some praise and criticism.

Bellizare.5816:

Well, for me the stats on the gear are all wrong, and I can’t salvage or sell it, so…..

It’s always one soldier’s/knights, one condition and one zerker/assassins type from which you can chose, so all types.