Guild Wars 2

My friend and I started Arah P2, legitimately duo-ing to see how far we can get.
We got to Lupi and then realized we needed help.
We posted LFG asking for experienced players as in 3k ap or more.
We wanted to finish up because it was near 2am pacific and we shouldn’t have stayed up that late anyway.
3 people join, 2 ele & 1 necro all under 3k ap, I let them know that I really don’t feel up to teaching the run this late at night and can they bring heavy armored classes…
Instead I get voted up for kick by the 3 new people who are apparently friends…
My friend didn’t say anything so they kept him, they died on the way to Lupi (the way point is up, but they’re just so inexperienced that they think they have to run to Lupi from the beginning)
Anyway my friend mentions the fact that they should know to use the way point and they kick him also.
A couple of minutes we notice them standing just outside the dungeon, so I confront them, they say oh yea we just left, sorry for kicking you, want to do the path from the beginning with us….
So my instance I worked so hard for is just lost, because I have no way of holding it.
This is so incredibly unfair, if party kick was still the old way, my friend and I would have kicked them before it got that far, but because there was not 3 of us, we had no rights as dungeon starters ANET PLEASE FIX THIS INJUSTICE!!

Welcome to the GW2 social experience.

But that sucks, I get punished because I’m an experienced player… I’ve been with Guild wars from first game to this day, but this honestly first time I felt this mistreated. I feel so frustrated with this.

Unfortunately, there’s no real safe way to handle the kick mechanic in parties.

If you give the power to one person (a party leader), then you could get trolls that abuse the system and who form groups only to kick everyone later after taking advantage of all their hard work (e.g. someone could form a group, get to the end of the dungeon and then kick the entire group and sell the dungeon path).

But, as you’ve just now indicated, even the group vote system, which requires a majority vote, can be abused by people who are friends with or who are familiar with each other. It does, however, reduce the chances of being unfairly kicked in a party, though it does not eliminate it altogether.

The only way to get rid of that risk altogether is to disable the ability to kick altogether, but then that would open up more issues. A player could simply afk during a dungeon and the rest of his party would have no way to remove him, outside of all leaving the party themselves and forming a new one, which would also reset progress.

Ultimately, unless you can think of some alternative mechanic that alleviates the problem without creating new, even greater problems, simply asking for it to be “fixed” without offering any viable solutions of your own, will not afford anyone any progress on the matter. Aside from that, my only recommendation would be to report players if you feel they are being abusive in any way (that includes abusing gameplay mechanics), or to only play in organized groups with people you know and trust.

I am suggesting a fix, either or:
1) Revert it to two people enough to kick.
2) If you’ve been in same dungeon over 40 min and get kicked you automatically get half the reward money and full tokens.
3) Allow additional options for LFG tool like selecting specific class and AP, listing could still be viewed but if you don’t meet requested criteria, you can’t join…

Nadya.4250:

I am suggesting a fix, I want it reverted to the 2 people is enough mechanic.

But how would that fix the issue? Those three players would have still been able to kick you and your friend either way. It would also open up issues where two friends could join a party with three other players and progressively kick each of them, opening up more cases of abuse.

Unfortunately, although your solution might apply strictly to your particular experience, there are a lot of variables and a lot of possible situations that have to be accounted for, not just one.

Oh, I see you changed your idea. XD

The only one to blame is Arena Net. They removed instance owner and gave us no party control so you can be kicked from dungeon by anybody now unless you play at least with 2 friends. I’m not surprised people kick on sight these days. They are scared of nothing and steal instances. Thank you arena net for amazing group experience.

How about it takes 4 votes to kick. It would take care of most scenarios mentioned so far, although it could still be abused.

tramwajarz.2369:

The only one to blame is Arena Net. They removed instance owner and gave us no party control so you can be kicked from dungeon by anybody now unless you play at least with 2 friends. I’m not surprised people kick on sight these days. They are scared of nothing and steal instances. Thank you arena net for amazing group experience.

The instance owner mechanic had a ton of issues of its own, which is why plenty of players asked for it to be removed. I myself had experiences where I had spent up to an hour in a fractal, only for the instance owner to suddenly afk. Our party waited and waited for ages for him to come back and we all ended up having to quit and lose all our progress. (This was at the end of the third fractal, after the boss. We all have to click ready to go to the next fractal and only the instance owner had not clicked it, so we could not progress).

It was just another system open to abuse. You can’t blame ANet for listening to its playerbase when they asked for it to be amended. O_o

You need a party leader function.
2, 3, 4 kick system will always end up with some people screwing others.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

tramwajarz.2369:

The only one to blame is Arena Net. They removed instance owner and gave us no party control so you can be kicked from dungeon by anybody now unless you play at least with 2 friends. I’m not surprised people kick on sight these days. They are scared of nothing and steal instances. Thank you arena net for amazing group experience.

The instance owner mechanic had a ton of issues of its own, which is why plenty of players asked for it to be removed. I myself had experiences where I had spent up to an hour in a fractal, only for the instance owner to suddenly afk. Our party waited and waited for ages for him to come back and we all ended up having to quit and lose all our progress.

It was just another system open to abuse. You can’t blame ANet for listening to its playerbase when they asked for it to be amended. O_o

There was never a party leader in GW2. There was an instance owner. This is different.
I can blamed Anet for making ridiculous decision. They changed one thing, than another and it is still abusive as it was. What’s more now ppl can steal others instances. How is it an improvement?

btw listening to some whiners is not listening to playerbase; for example I was never for this ridiculous idea of just removing instance owner.

I dont’ think that many people is selling path in GW2.

So the new system is obviously better. At least for the people not selling dungeon path.

and people are kicking people before too. just because they can’t steal it don’t mean they can’t troll people.

I don’t think Anet should change it to a party system, just for the dungeon seller. Because other regular people can be griefed by party leader.

tramwajarz.2369:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

tramwajarz.2369:

The only one to blame is Arena Net. They removed instance owner and gave us no party control so you can be kicked from dungeon by anybody now unless you play at least with 2 friends. I’m not surprised people kick on sight these days. They are scared of nothing and steal instances. Thank you arena net for amazing group experience.

The instance owner mechanic had a ton of issues of its own, which is why plenty of players asked for it to be removed. I myself had experiences where I had spent up to an hour in a fractal, only for the instance owner to suddenly afk. Our party waited and waited for ages for him to come back and we all ended up having to quit and lose all our progress.

It was just another system open to abuse. You can’t blame ANet for listening to its playerbase when they asked for it to be amended. O_o

There was never a party leader in GW2. There was an instance owner. This is different.
I can blamed Anet for making ridiculous decision. They changed one thing, than another and it is still abusive as it was. What’s more now ppl can steal others instances. How is it an improvement?

btw listening to some whiners is not listening to playerbase; for example I was never for this ridiculous idea of just removing instance owner.

I never mentioned party leaders in my post. I’m well aware of how the instance owner mechanic worked and I referenced it as such. I also mentioned how I think it was good to change it.

Instance owners could form a party, get to the end of a dungeon or fractal, and then leave the party. Because he/she is the instance owner, the rest of the party is kicked from the instance and only the owner remains. He/she can then sell the dungeon path, etc, or invite his own friends to complete it.

The instance owner could also simply not pull their weight in a dungeon/fractal or simply go AFK. The party would not be able to kick them because that would close the instance and kick everyone else out, thus causing them to lose progress.

Basically, that system had its own set of drawbacks and was open to abuse as well.

Frankly, at least the voting system doesn’t leave the power in the hands of just one individual, who could themselves be a troll. The group vote is not a perfect alternative either, but you have less risk of being kicked by a majority vote than you do of being trolled by a single player. I think I myself have only ever been kicked from one fractal run in the entire time I’ve played this game, and it was right at the start before we even began the fractal (so I assumed they were a bunch of friends just making space for one more friend). I also play with PUGS all the time.

You seem to have had a lot of requirements…

“We wanted this, we didn’t feel like doing that, can you bring this instead?” etc..

When you want (random) people to do everything on your terms and for your own convenience, rather than theirs, don’t be too surprised if some people (who can do so) decide to take things into their own hands.

Is it something I would do?

Probably not – I would just avoid the whole situation, personally.

But, once again, I’m not surprised that other people do.

I think people need to to accept that they may not get exactly what they want from a random grouping situation.

Speaking from experience, from other games, you just work with what you get in random groups and if you’re too tired, you should have either started earlier and/or accepted that (if you failed to duo) you might not be able to finish, at all.

There is no hard and fast fix for this issue, but I feel the new ‘majority’ kick is better than what we had, which only ever required 2 people. I feel its a bit unfair to simply blame anet when the issue lies with people, not the system. Is it 100% perfect? No, but the system itself is not what’s at fault here.

I have said it before, and I will say it again….if it can be abused it will be. No, not by everyone. Not even by the majority. However, the OP does a very good job highlighting how a few can really spoil things if they put their mind to it.

It wouldn’t matter it we had a party leader and only the party leader could kick, similar to other games. We’ve seen and heard about people abusing that method in other games. We saw abuse of the 2-vote kick system we originally had. And now (even though we asked for it) we see abuse of the majority vote kick system. Short of simply removing the ability to kick people all together, there isn’t really an abuse-free method available.

What I can’t understand is when I open an instance and start a party/LFG alone or with 1 friend, I have totally 0 control over my own party. This is lack of common sense during designing process.

I think a decent solution would be, once you get to a certain point (and have been in dungeon from the start) and you are kicked, that you are put into a duplicate instance by yourself, with the same progress made. That way you can invite other people and pick up where you left off.

I’m sure there will be ways to abuse this, but at the very least being kicked wouldn’t be a complete slap to the face.

tramwajarz.2369:

What I can’t understand is when I open an instance and start a party/LFG alone or with 1 friend, I have totally 0 control over my own party. This is lack of common sense during designing process.

I don’t really see how this is any different than say…WoW’s dungeon LFG tool. You have 0 control over the people you end up that way too. At best you know you’ll have a tank, a healer, and 3 dps. (Unless they’ve changed something since I last played, which was some time ago).

If you want complete control over your party, then I would think that you would be building your team with trusted friends and guild members. Not pugging via the LFG.

Draknar.5748:

I think a decent solution would be, once you get to a certain point (and have been in dungeon from the start) and you are kicked, that you are put into a duplicate instance by yourself, with the same progress made. That way you can invite other people and pick up where you left off.

I’m sure there will be ways to abuse this, but at the very least being kicked wouldn’t be a complete slap to the face.

I would take my full guild party, progress instance to the last boss, kick each other so other 4 can start 4 new almost finished instances, sell spots, share profit.

Never going to happen, sorry.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

tramwajarz.2369:

What I can’t understand is when I open an instance and start a party/LFG alone or with 1 friend, I have totally 0 control over my own party. This is lack of common sense during designing process.

I don’t really see how this is any different than say…WoW’s dungeon LFG tool. You have 0 control over the people you end up that way too. At best you know you’ll have a tank, a healer, and 3 dps. (Unless they’ve changed something since I last played, which was some time ago).

If you want complete control over your party, then I would think that you would be building your team with trusted friends and guild members. Not pugging via the LFG.

I would agree with your point if only I could make requirements on LFG, so random ppl not matching my req can’t join. But because we don’t have this option, kicks are only way to solve issues in parties. This is dumb.

Sollutions i see for party kicking problem are:

1. Person who OPENED instance cannot be kicked.
   This is actually the best (probably, I’m still into party leader option as the best solution), because no matter if you solo the dung or You just run casually, or with friends, YOU are head of Your party. If people doesn’t like You, way You play or everything about You – they can leave, but You can’t be even touched.
2. Party leader
   It can be used in a way it shouldn’t too. Yes. Yes once again. And yes for the third time. But – how often do You got kick from parties You join? And how many times You got kick from parties YOU created? Actually players’ experience can differ, but it’s more popular that joiners cheat the owner, instead of “owner” cheating joiners.
   Additionally YOU can create your own party. You risk nothing. In other case You can use report tool more often.
3. Save instanced progression. (instance saves after boss kill)
   Actually I see this only for soloers that got kick from their own party, but this would create multiple problems with people having different progress in same dungeon (creating multiple instances because someone has killed the boss other haven’t). It would still repair problem od DCs in dungeons. And rewards would have to be distributed after each boss, cuz of cloning nearly completed dungeons (someone mentioned it b4)
4. Party leader / instance owner ONLY is able to set vote kick.
   I don’t think this would create a lot of problems with abusing this. I don’t see anything right now, what could be abused.
5. Bring back old instance owner and let everyone suffer
   But it should be changed from the way it worked in the past. Owner should be highlighted, has a crown on top of his head or something. So people know what they are risking when they don’t like You.

As long as people are selling dungeons every option where kicking system relies on poll is hurting em. Disable the ability of soloing dungeons or change party kick system.

Mindless battles against or for something are mindless. Long time ago there should be official poll created by Anet where players can choose which system they like best and winner is implemented. Ofc there can be more than 5 examples I provided. I still think that anet should make a poll about it.

P.S. There is a huge bunch of solutions, every better than public vote kick. IMO public vote kick is worst thing i have ever saw.

Selling dungeons has nothing to do with it. OP wanted to do normal instance, tried duo and then asked for help and was kicked because of terrible design decision made by developer(s).

tramwajarz.2369:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

tramwajarz.2369:

What I can’t understand is when I open an instance and start a party/LFG alone or with 1 friend, I have totally 0 control over my own party. This is lack of common sense during designing process.

I don’t really see how this is any different than say…WoW’s dungeon LFG tool. You have 0 control over the people you end up that way too. At best you know you’ll have a tank, a healer, and 3 dps. (Unless they’ve changed something since I last played, which was some time ago).

If you want complete control over your party, then I would think that you would be building your team with trusted friends and guild members. Not pugging via the LFG.

I would agree with your point if only I could make requirements on LFG, so random ppl not matching my req can’t join. But because we don’t have this option, kicks are only way to solve issues in parties. This is dumb.

Lol, like you have any control over it in other games. Cmon now. Even in WoW someone can select ‘tank’ when they aren’t really. I ran into that a few times death knights (which, I’m aware can be good tanks when set up properly).

Even in GW1 you couldn’t guarantee the person that joined your group would match the reqs you post in the lfg. Hell, if they pinged the exact bar and such you wanted, didn’t mean they didn’t swap it out after (something we see here in GW2 as well).

If you want to guarantee that the person you’re running with is exactly what you desire, then you shouldn’t be pugging. Pugging is a mixed bag and we all know it.

Draknar.5748:

I think a decent solution would be, once you get to a certain point (and have been in dungeon from the start) and you are kicked, that you are put into a duplicate instance by yourself, with the same progress made. That way you can invite other people and pick up where you left off.

I’m sure there will be ways to abuse this, but at the very least being kicked wouldn’t be a complete slap to the face.

Unfortunately, there would be ways to abuse this.

For example, five players start a dungeon, get to the last boss, then they purposely kick each member of the group, thus causing them to enter their own instance. They can then each sell their own instance for max profit. It would make dungeon selling much easier without any loss of profit really and I could see parties being organized purely for the sake of mass dungeon path selling. O_o

Edit: I just noticed tramwajarz.2369 already mentioned these potential issues.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

tramwajarz.2369:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

tramwajarz.2369:

What I can’t understand is when I open an instance and start a party/LFG alone or with 1 friend, I have totally 0 control over my own party. This is lack of common sense during designing process.

I don’t really see how this is any different than say…WoW’s dungeon LFG tool. You have 0 control over the people you end up that way too. At best you know you’ll have a tank, a healer, and 3 dps. (Unless they’ve changed something since I last played, which was some time ago).

If you want complete control over your party, then I would think that you would be building your team with trusted friends and guild members. Not pugging via the LFG.

I would agree with your point if only I could make requirements on LFG, so random ppl not matching my req can’t join. But because we don’t have this option, kicks are only way to solve issues in parties. This is dumb.

Lol, like you have any control over it in other games. Cmon now. Even in WoW someone can select ‘tank’ when they aren’t really. I ran into that a few times death knights (which, I’m aware can be good tanks when set up properly).

Even in GW1 you couldn’t guarantee the person that joined your group would match the reqs you post in the lfg. Hell, if they pinged the exact bar and such you wanted, didn’t mean they didn’t swap it out after (something we see here in GW2 as well).

If you want to guarantee that the person you’re running with is exactly what you desire, then you shouldn’t be pugging. Pugging is a mixed bag and we all know it.

So you’re claming that game x and game y have bad implementations in their system so GW2 is entitled to bad design decisions?

Actually I stopped puging at all. PUG community in this game developed no respect and no skill attitude for 3 years now. However, I understand the case OP is stating and I fully support people voicing their need to make party system better.

The case is, we will never hear anything from Anet about this until one day they will announce a random change. Or not.

Nadya.4250:

But that sucks, I get punished because I’m an experienced player… I’ve been with Guild wars from first game to this day, but this honestly first time I felt this mistreated. I feel so frustrated with this.

It’s why you either run dungeons only with guildies / friends and ensure you’re in majority so a vote kick will be denied – in case of hijacking or generally getting jerks / newbs from the LFG experience.

Depending on whether you’re EU or NA (I’m EU), add me and I’ll come help if I’m around and I can guarantee there will be none of this bs

There is no system that cannot be abused. Majority vote is better than minority vote (which includes the 1-person vote of a party leader).

tramwajarz.2369:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

tramwajarz.2369:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

tramwajarz.2369:

What I can’t understand is when I open an instance and start a party/LFG alone or with 1 friend, I have totally 0 control over my own party. This is lack of common sense during designing process.

I don’t really see how this is any different than say…WoW’s dungeon LFG tool. You have 0 control over the people you end up that way too. At best you know you’ll have a tank, a healer, and 3 dps. (Unless they’ve changed something since I last played, which was some time ago).

If you want complete control over your party, then I would think that you would be building your team with trusted friends and guild members. Not pugging via the LFG.

I would agree with your point if only I could make requirements on LFG, so random ppl not matching my req can’t join. But because we don’t have this option, kicks are only way to solve issues in parties. This is dumb.

Lol, like you have any control over it in other games. Cmon now. Even in WoW someone can select ‘tank’ when they aren’t really. I ran into that a few times death knights (which, I’m aware can be good tanks when set up properly).

Even in GW1 you couldn’t guarantee the person that joined your group would match the reqs you post in the lfg. Hell, if they pinged the exact bar and such you wanted, didn’t mean they didn’t swap it out after (something we see here in GW2 as well).

If you want to guarantee that the person you’re running with is exactly what you desire, then you shouldn’t be pugging. Pugging is a mixed bag and we all know it.

So you’re claming that game x and game y have bad implementations in their system so GW2 is entitled to bad design decisions?

Actually I stopped puging at all. PUG community in this game developed no respect and no skill attitude for 3 years now. However, I understand the case OP is stating and I fully support people voicing their need to make party system better.

The case is, we will never hear anything from Anet about this until one day they will announce a random change. Or not.

I think what he’s trying to say is not that the issue should be ignored, but rather, there is no clear answer to the issue and that even when games implement systems to try and narrow it down as much as they can, there are still loopholes that players take advantage of.

I think if we players want a solution, we should also brainstorm one ourselves and try to suggest it and then discuss it (which is what the forums are for). If we can’t come up with a sure fire solution ourselves, how can we expect ANet to?

Some problems do have clear answers, others do not. In my opinion, the only sure answer to dealing with this particular issue, is to only play in organized groups.

tramwajarz.2369:

So you’re claming that game x and game y have bad implementations in their system so GW2 is entitled to bad design decisions?

Lol no, that wasn’t my point at all. The point is that many games have tried an assortment of options in regards to party set ups and kick tactics. They all pretty much end up the same way. Has nothing to do with whether the present GW2 implementation is a poor design decision or not.

tramwajarz.2369:

Actually I stopped puging at all. PUG community in this game developed no respect and no skill attitude for 3 years now.

You must have some terrible luck with pugs. I have pugged with many quite skilled players in my time playing, although I can agree with the no respect part of your comment. It seems that many pugs are just downright rude to anyone and everyone that isn’t exactly what they feel the other person “should be.” Seems to be a trend with our species, in and out of game actually.

tramwajarz.2369:

However, I understand the case OP is stating and I fully support people voicing their need to make party system better.

And I’m not disagreeing that it could be tweaked; however, considering how long games have been trying to implement these systems, and yet they all end up the same way, obviously its really not as simple as we all like to think. There is no ‘perfect’ solution. For some people, the majority vote system works fine, for others like the OP, it doesn’t. Some people would prefer a party leader; however that has just as much risk of abuse as the current system so how is it any better? Its just a different skin over the same problem.

Okay, thank you both for clarification. Yes, there is no perfect system. However I don’t find current system to be better than old one. People were always complaining about random kicks from parties. Old days you could say “start your own instance”. Today you are saying “find 2 other people to cancel the kick”. Which one is easier to do especially for people that play solo or in pairs? Because I remember reading an article stating and proving that vast majority of mmo players are playing solo most of the time, which means (IF true) that well designed and mostly flawless party system should be crucial in a multiplayer game.

tramwajarz.2369:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

tramwajarz.2369:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

tramwajarz.2369:

What I can’t understand is when I open an instance and start a party/LFG alone or with 1 friend, I have totally 0 control over my own party. This is lack of common sense during designing process.

I don’t really see how this is any different than say…WoW’s dungeon LFG tool. You have 0 control over the people you end up that way too. At best you know you’ll have a tank, a healer, and 3 dps. (Unless they’ve changed something since I last played, which was some time ago).

If you want complete control over your party, then I would think that you would be building your team with trusted friends and guild members. Not pugging via the LFG.

I would agree with your point if only I could make requirements on LFG, so random ppl not matching my req can’t join. But because we don’t have this option, kicks are only way to solve issues in parties. This is dumb.

Lol, like you have any control over it in other games. Cmon now. Even in WoW someone can select ‘tank’ when they aren’t really. I ran into that a few times death knights (which, I’m aware can be good tanks when set up properly).

Even in GW1 you couldn’t guarantee the person that joined your group would match the reqs you post in the lfg. Hell, if they pinged the exact bar and such you wanted, didn’t mean they didn’t swap it out after (something we see here in GW2 as well).

If you want to guarantee that the person you’re running with is exactly what you desire, then you shouldn’t be pugging. Pugging is a mixed bag and we all know it.

So you’re claming that game x and game y have bad implementations in their system so GW2 is entitled to bad design decisions?

Actually I stopped puging at all. PUG community in this game developed no respect and no skill attitude for 3 years now. However, I understand the case OP is stating and I fully support people voicing their need to make party system better.

The case is, we will never hear anything from Anet about this until one day they will announce a random change. Or not.

no, he is telling you that there have been many attemtps to come up with a working system and they all had their shortcomings. Pretty clear when you are more interested in like, reading a post, than in antagonizing…

tramwajarz.2369:

Okay, thank you both for clarification. Yes, there is no perfect system. However I don’t find current system to be better than old one. People were always complaining about random kicks from parties. Old days you could say “start your own instance”. Today you are saying “find 2 other people to cancel the kick”. Which one is easier to do especially for people that play solo or in pairs? Because I remember reading an article stating and proving that vast majority of mmo players are playing solo most of the time, which means (IF true) that well designed and mostly flawless party system should be crucial in a multiplayer game.

I get where you’re coming from.

I don’t typically dungeon often, but when I do it’s either alone or with my husband (since that’s just typically how I play). I have been relatively lucky in that I haven’t actually run into a bunch of kick happy jerks. So, the new system functions ‘fine’ for me, and from personal observation, I do see less complaint in the game. Which, doesn’t mean issues don’t exist, as the OP shows us.

So yes, a better system is necessary…however, I don’t see how we can achieve such when the underlying issue isn’t actually the systems, but rather the people using them. How do you fix “people”?

This system has been discussed a lot. I have on at least one occasion suggested that an afk feature be added, that if a player fails to deal any damage(to prevent slight movement or chat botting from preventing the flag) for some period of time (say 15 minutes so that it is long enough not to just be planning how to tackle a boss but short enough that people aren’t waiting forever for an afk) they get a flag that lets them be kicked with 2 votes, if not flagged it takes all 4 other members of the group voting to kick.

Since there are no dedicated healers in this game the only type of person that should be kicked that would get out of it was two people working together to actively troll which while annoying would be a much smaller issue than the system currently has.

I can’t fix but I think it’s obvious for both of us

What I would do, as a developer – make party creator more important than other members, mostly because it’s his party, he’s making requirements for it so people agree to join him on his rules so he should be superior to them. Party leader would be a 2-vote heavy person, so when kicking he would need only 1 more vote to kick someone (so we can at least try to prevent people from destroying parties before selling solo). However party leader won’t be immune to vote kick but it would require all other members to agree to kick him.

This way it seems more fair for people starting parties on lfg, to feel safer. What we need to do is to consider a pug situation, not sellers situation, because selling is not a feature of the game.

Or better yet, but pretty hardcore – a player starting a party could choose a mark “disable vote kicks” so other people know there will be no kicking in this party and can join it or avoid it.

How about it takes 4 to kick the instance owner (this takes care of the AFK owner) or it takes the instance owner and 2 others (for a total of 3).

tramwajarz.2369:

so he should be superior to them.

Oh, dear God. ><

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

tramwajarz.2369:

What I can’t understand is when I open an instance and start a party/LFG alone or with 1 friend, I have totally 0 control over my own party. This is lack of common sense during designing process.

I don’t really see how this is any different than say…WoW’s dungeon LFG tool. You have 0 control over the people you end up that way too. At best you know you’ll have a tank, a healer, and 3 dps. (Unless they’ve changed something since I last played, which was some time ago).

If you want complete control over your party, then I would think that you would be building your team with trusted friends and guild members. Not pugging via the LFG.

Quite.

No wonder (almost) everyone ends up going back to a 10 year old game, with too many Orcs, sooner or later…

Unfortunately there is not a simple solution. But there should be some concept of Party Leader. Thus, blocking the kicking of that leader.

The other day I was in the Silverwastes. We’d advanced the progress to about 90%. I started to Taxi in people so we’d have enough to do the Breach & VR. I ended up getting kicked from the Taxi party I created. Which in turn stops others from getting into our instance. There was absolutely no reason for it, just punks having fun.

I assume that there’s a need to kick AFK people or s**t disturbers. But there might not be a way to prevent some child like behavior. For the OP’s case I feel bad, for me it was too minor. Anet might need to look into a more logical solution.

When you use LFG, you get no say in who winds up in your party.

I understand that playing at 2AM means you probably don’t have any friends online to help you, but you gambled and lost.

mtpelion.4562:

When you use LFG, you get no say in who winds up in your party.

I understand that playing at 2AM means you probably don’t have any friends online to help you, but you gambled and lost.

LFG shouldn’t be gamble.

tramwajarz.2369:

I can’t fix but I think it’s obvious for both of us

What I would do, as a developer – make party creator more important than other members, mostly because it’s his party, he’s making requirements for it so people agree to join him on his rules so he should be superior to them. Party leader would be a 2-vote heavy person, so when kicking he would need only 1 more vote to kick someone (so we can at least try to prevent people from destroying parties before selling solo). However party leader won’t be immune to vote kick but it would require all other members to agree to kick him.

This way it seems more fair for people starting parties on lfg, to feel safer. What we need to do is to consider a pug situation, not sellers situation, because selling is not a feature of the game.

Or better yet, but pretty hardcore – a player starting a party could choose a mark “disable vote kicks” so other people know there will be no kicking in this party and can join it or avoid it.

So what stops this new system from being exploited similarly to the old 2-vote system? Person A starts the group and is now party leader. He makes sure to bring 1 trusted friend or guildie, and 3 pugs. They run the dungeon, then at the end proceed to kick the 3 pugs to sell those spots. There is nothing to stop them since the leader counts as 2, and the friend makes the 3rd for a majority vote.

Or, as in the OPs scenario, those 3 pugs are friends, and in fear of being kicked due to the power of the party leader, they opt to beat him to the punch and the 3 of them vote him out. Then when the party leader’s friend objects, they oust him too.

It should still only require a majority vote to remove a party leader. Making it so ‘all 4 others’ are required can be abused too openly by simply having that 1 friend to block that kick. It makes it too easy for the leader to then drop those pugs, negating all the effort they put forth to begin with.

You end up in the same boat we’re in presently.

Additionally, by removing the ability to kick during the run means that if someone disconnects, you may have 10 or 15 minutes of just waiting for the game to drop them from the party before you can re-fill that spot. Or they could just opt to be a total kitten and go afk on you too.

You can’t just ‘ignore’ that people sell paths. Anet has essentially said they’re ok with it, it’s simply a service people offer. Just as they’ve said they are ok with speed clears. It wasn’t specifically how the intended for things to go, but there is nothing ‘wrong’ with it per se, either. Now, yes, I believe its been called out that being booted so that the person can then sell your spot is reportable, but it still happens.

tramwajarz.2369:

mtpelion.4562:

When you use LFG, you get no say in who winds up in your party.

I understand that playing at 2AM means you probably don’t have any friends online to help you, but you gambled and lost.

LFG shouldn’t be gamble.

I don’t think you understand the concept of LFG… it is impossible for it to be anything BUT a gamble due to the innate nature of what it is.

If you don’t want a gamble, play with friends or guildmates.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

tramwajarz.2369:

I can’t fix but I think it’s obvious for both of us

What I would do, as a developer – make party creator more important than other members, mostly because it’s his party, he’s making requirements for it so people agree to join him on his rules so he should be superior to them. Party leader would be a 2-vote heavy person, so when kicking he would need only 1 more vote to kick someone (so we can at least try to prevent people from destroying parties before selling solo). However party leader won’t be immune to vote kick but it would require all other members to agree to kick him.

This way it seems more fair for people starting parties on lfg, to feel safer. What we need to do is to consider a pug situation, not sellers situation, because selling is not a feature of the game.

Or better yet, but pretty hardcore – a player starting a party could choose a mark “disable vote kicks” so other people know there will be no kicking in this party and can join it or avoid it.

So what stops this new system from being exploited similarly to the old 2-vote system? Person A starts the group and is now party leader. He makes sure to bring 1 trusted friend or guildie, and 3 pugs. They run the dungeon, then at the end proceed to kick the 3 pugs to sell those spots. There is nothing to stop them since the leader counts as 2, and the friend makes the 3rd for a majority vote.

Or, as in the OPs scenario, those 3 pugs are friends, and in fear of being kicked due to the power of the party leader, they opt to beat him to the punch and the 3 of them vote him out. Then when the party leader’s friend objects, they oust him too.

It should still only require a majority vote to remove a party leader. Making it so ‘all 4 others’ are required can be abused too openly by simply having that 1 friend to block that kick. It makes it too easy for the leader to then drop those pugs, negating all the effort they put forth to begin with.

You end up in the same boat we’re in presently.

Additionally, by removing the ability to kick during the run means that if someone disconnects, you may have 10 or 15 minutes of just waiting for the game to drop them from the party before you can re-fill that spot. Or they could just opt to be a total kitten and go afk on you too.

You can’t just ‘ignore’ that people sell paths. Anet has essentially said they’re ok with it, it’s simply a service people offer. Just as they’ve said they are ok with speed clears. It wasn’t specifically how the intended for things to go, but there is nothing ‘wrong’ with it per se, either. Now, yes, I believe its been called out that being booted so that the person can then sell your spot is reportable, but it still happens.

Anet said it’s not bannable to sell paths but they are not going to support it. In this case, when someone is being kicked for no reason he can always submit a ticket.
This is what is happening now but I don’t really believe anything is happening to scammers.

From my point of view, when people create parties they should have a right to prevent their spot in parties. This is ‘their’ party. When other people join opened parties they accept they are guests. This is common sense to me. However in Guild Wars 2 the OP is a guest in his own party. This is madness.

tramwajarz.2369:

Draknar.5748:

I think a decent solution would be, once you get to a certain point (and have been in dungeon from the start) and you are kicked, that you are put into a duplicate instance by yourself, with the same progress made. That way you can invite other people and pick up where you left off.

I’m sure there will be ways to abuse this, but at the very least being kicked wouldn’t be a complete slap to the face.

I would take my full guild party, progress instance to the last boss, kick each other so other 4 can start 4 new almost finished instances, sell spots, share profit.

Never going to happen, sorry.

People already sell spots, so who cares really? If a guild wants to spend the time doing that, go for it, there are equally fast methods to make money. There are only so many people that will buy Arah runs. I don’t think you’d be able to find 20 people simultaneously anyway. And if you did, it certainly wouldn’t be so consistent you could simply farm arah paths to sell them 5 at a time every day.

We are talking about solutions to people being unfairly kicked. If the solution works but happens to allow ambitious guilds to party up, run Arah paths, kick eachother, try and find people to fill up all 5 groups with people willing to buy Arah paths, then split the profits, then who really cares.

I’m saying it wouldn’t work out the way you think it will. You can find someone to buy paths here and there, but 5 groups worth of people? All at the same time? Regularly? Not a chance.

You would move on to a more stable income like SW farming, I guarantee it.

Amount of buyers always goes up shortly after sale.

tramwajarz.2369:

Anet said it’s not bannable to sell paths but they are not going to support it. In this case, when someone is being kicked for no reason he can always submit a ticket.
This is what is happening now but I don’t really believe anything is happening to scammers.

Yes, essentially what I was trying to say lol. It’s happening today. It’s reportable, though not necessarily bannable. So we’re on the same page. I’m sure some of the very guilty get at least temp banned (since it is scamming to use and boot), but I’m sure most slip through the cracks and aren’t reported to begin with.

tramwajarz.2369:

From my point of view, when people create parties they should have a right to prevent their spot in parties. This is ‘their’ party. When other people join opened parties they accept they are guests. This is common sense to me. However in Guild Wars 2 the OP is a guest in his own party. This is madness.

I don’t view it in the same light, but then again I’ve run into issues in other games where the party leader was an absolute kitten and the only ‘option’ I had as a ‘guest’ in his group was to leave. So to me, everyone being on the same footing, especially in a completely random draw-a-rabbit-out-of-the-hat group where you never know what or who you’re going to get, makes sense. Once we get into an instance, their effort isn’t worth more or less than my own and if they are a kitten, I should have the right to drop them. Conversely, if I’m being a kitten, they should have the right to drop me without sacrificing their own effort. That’s only fair.

However, then we end up right back to square one….the kittens that abuse the system because they can.

I guess everybody is so fast to forget so many times in the past when party leader rage quit and everybody was kicked from the instance. Also the fact instance owners had tendency to be gluteuses just because they couldn’t be kicked.

Oxidia.8103:

I guess everybody is so fast to forget so many times in the past when party leader rage quit and everybody was kicked from the instance. Also the fact instance owners had tendency to be gluteuses just because they couldn’t be kicked.

On the other hand situation like presented in the OP most likely wouldnt happen because kids that joined OP didnt want to loose half finished instance.

what if… ppl with insufficient AP would’nt be able to see AP restricted LFGs

Nadya.4250:

…

Welcome to friendlier community ever. You didnt seen how friendly they was? They wanted to run it from the start with you again! It was very nice behavior from them.

Enjoy your game where everyone and their mom abuse party system by kicking out and stealing instances as they cant be punishment for such things. You can do it youself, ask 2 friends to join someone whos selling arah pX, kick him = ? = profit. Olny party leader will fix that junk.