Guild Wars 2

Scoobaniec.9561:

Enjoy your game where everyone and their mom abuse party system by kicking out and stealing instances as they cant be punishment for such things. You can do it youself, ask 2 friends to join someone whos selling arah pX, kick him = ? = profit.

…and then you get banned by Anet. Great idea indeed.

sMihaly.1492:

what if… ppl with insufficient AP would’nt be able to see AP restricted LFGs

There should be a way to select requirements in lfg so only characteres that match those criteria could see and join said LFG post.

AP is a terrible “skill” measure

tramwajarz.2369:

sMihaly.1492:

what if… ppl with insufficient AP would’nt be able to see AP restricted LFGs

There should be a way to select requirements in lfg so only characteres that match those criteria could see and join said LFG post.

AP is a terrible “skill” measure

I agree it is. But what else we have. I don’t see how the LFG would check one’s gear and traits, or experience.

Astralporing.1957:

Scoobaniec.9561:

Enjoy your game where everyone and their mom abuse party system by kicking out and stealing instances as they cant be punishment for such things. You can do it youself, ask 2 friends to join someone whos selling arah pX, kick him = ? = profit.

…and then you get banned by Anet. Great idea indeed.

Lol indeed because I know at least 4 regular instance stealers that run around in LA and laugh in faces of regular dungeoneers.

sMihaly.1492:

tramwajarz.2369:

sMihaly.1492:

what if… ppl with insufficient AP would’nt be able to see AP restricted LFGs

There should be a way to select requirements in lfg so only characteres that match those criteria could see and join said LFG post.

AP is a terrible “skill” measure

I agree it is. But what else we have. I don’t see how the LFG would check one’s gear and traits, or experience.

but it should do exactly this; you should have a box to select e.g. stat combo + gear minimal tier; then you select checkbox with path and you can fill additional info in description

I really like the idea that the “instance owner” would require an extra kick compared to other party members. It seems to be the best of both worlds.

The problem here is that new members to the party are kicking the original members. Make it more difficult for the new members to kick the original ones, then?

For example, there should be a timer before a new member can vote to kick any of the original members. This could be proportionate to the time that has already been spent in the instance. This would mean that it is much more difficult for a new member to kick all original members if they join just before the end-boss of a dungeon.

Alternately, if a new member votes to kick an original member, it would require an original member to accept the vote. This would need more development as it would have to be balanced in terms of how many people are in the party and ratio of new:old members.

Other than this being a solution, perhaps we should all be looking at the problem from a different perspective?

What if there was more of a penalty for kicking a player/joining at the end of an instance?

-Perhaps a person is limited to the amount of kicks/votes they have per instance/per unit of time?
-Perhaps rewards get scaled for everybody depending on the amount of times kicking has occured during the dungeon?
-What about the end chest reward scaling to the events/tasks completed in the dungeon? If a player has been in the instance from the beginning (and thus completed the tasks), they will get the full dungeon reward at the end whereas a player who joined before the end-boss will get a proportionately smaller reward (e.g. a champ bag, 1/5th of the gold+token reward).

Crimson Clouds.4853:

I really like the idea that the “instance owner” would require an extra kick compared to other party members. It seems to be the best of both worlds.

The problem here is that new members to the party are kicking the original members. Make it more difficult for the new members to kick the original ones, then?

For example, there should be a timer before a new member can vote to kick any of the original members. This could be proportionate to the time that has already been spent in the instance. This would mean that it is much more difficult for a new member to kick all original members if they join just before the end-boss of a dungeon.

Alternately, if a new member votes to kick an original member, it would require an original member to accept the vote. This would need more development as it would have to be balanced in terms of how many people are in the party and ratio of new:old members.

Other than this being a solution, perhaps we should all be looking at the problem from a different perspective?

What if there was more of a penalty for kicking a player/joining at the end of an instance?

-Perhaps a person is limited to the amount of kicks/votes they have per instance/per unit of time?
-Perhaps rewards get scaled for everybody depending on the amount of times kicking has occured during the dungeon?
-What about the end chest reward scaling to the events/tasks completed in the dungeon? If a player has been in the instance from the beginning (and thus completed the tasks), they will get the full dungeon reward at the end whereas a player who joined before the end-boss will get a proportionately smaller reward (e.g. a champ bag, 1/5th of the gold+token reward).

reward scaling is a problem because of random DCs that happens in this game to often and we know that this would reset progress (because for game you left the instance).

Nothing Anet can do will derail selfish jerks who don’t care about being a part of the social community. Any changes will always be abused, it’s what these folks live for and how they play.

tramwajarz.2369:

Crimson Clouds.4853:

-Perhaps rewards get scaled for everybody depending on the amount of times kicking has occured during the dungeon?
-What about the end chest reward scaling to the events/tasks completed in the dungeon? If a player has been in the instance from the beginning (and thus completed the tasks), they will get the full dungeon reward at the end whereas a player who joined before the end-boss will get a proportionately smaller reward (e.g. a champ bag, 1/5th of the gold+token reward).

reward scaling is a problem because of random DCs that happens in this game to often and we know that this would reset progress (because for game you left the instance).

So, at every chest (after completing the mini-bosses/tasks) you receive a key of some-sort that you can use when you reach the end chest. The key stays in your inventory even if you dc. The key is accountbound and specific for the dungeon (e.g. “Arah Chest Key”). There is a limit to how many keys you can use in one dungeon instance (if there are 5 chests to open throughout the dungeon, the end chest can only be opened 5 times). The keys have a 24 hour timer on them and automatically get destroyed/broken.

This surely bypasses the dc problem. The details also prevent people hoarding them and farming the first boss of a dungeon and leaving (and then jumping into a party at the end and spamming their keys).

IMO if you get kicked by players who just joined the kick should not even count, it should be so that every player that actually took part of the dungeon gain claim rights.

a claim right is something that makes you more and more immune to kicking, the moment the past part needs to be done you can’t be kicked.
however, when you’re not active the last chest has no reward, this will prevent the AFK looting in dungeons.

dungeons should also be done in sections, each section completed increases your claim right.
the higher your claim right, the more votes you need to be kicked.
ones you completed 3 sections your claim right is full, each dungeon has at least 4 sections.

now you might think “but what about players who are already going AFK on section 3 without others noticing it”, a fair question.
each section determines the activity of players, this uses almost the same system DE’s use.
when you’re just fooling around you get in the bronze zone and that doesn’t increase your claim right, silver and gold does. (you don’t really see the medals but the system just keeps track in the background)

maybe i missed something but it might solve part of the problem.

How about we bring back the party leader and make it visible to the rest of the party who the leader is.

Kicking still requires majority vote.

The party leader can’t be kicked.

If the party leader leaves or disconnects, leadership is passed to a random other player.
If the party leader AFK’s for 5 minutes or more then leadership is automatically passed to a random other member of the party. (The old leader could then be kicked if the rest of the party wants to).

Every member of the party has an equal right to the instance. If a majority of players want to remove you from the instance, that is their right.

The “party leader” is an elitist misnomer. No one has any more right to the party or the instance than any other person.

mtpelion.4562:

Every member of the party has an equal right to the instance. If a majority of players want to remove you from the instance, that is their right.

The “party leader” is an elitist misnomer. No one has any more right to the party or the instance than any other person.

I fully disagree. When I create a party and make requirements for it, it is my right to moderate my own party. Those people who joined me agreed to be my guests. Noone is entitled for instances or a place in a party. Those who are afraid of being guests would be able to create their own parties and be “immune” to other participants.

Instances is not open world facebook farm. There are so many people entitled to do whatever they want they don’t even care to read LFG descriptions. Those players should feel bad.

I partially disagree, people might have equal rights if they all started together.
As soon as people start being invited after it has started they have less rights than that original group of starters in my book.

Mantheren.5428:

I partially disagree, people might have equal rights if they all started together.
As soon as people start being invited after it has started they have less rights than that original group of starters in my book.

Point taken. I think I agree with you on this.

tramwajarz.2369:

mtpelion.4562:

Every member of the party has an equal right to the instance. If a majority of players want to remove you from the instance, that is their right.

The “party leader” is an elitist misnomer. No one has any more right to the party or the instance than any other person.

I fully disagree. When I create a party and make requirements for it, it is my right to moderate my own party. Those people who joined me agreed to be my guests. Noone is entitled for instances or a place in a party. Those who are afraid of being guests would be able to create their own parties and be “immune” to other participants.

Instances is not open world facebook farm. There are so many people entitled to do whatever they want they don’t even care to read LFG descriptions. Those players should feel bad.

I fully disagree. Sound like an elitist dictator to me. No one has more right than any others in a group. No one is entitled to own an instance either (except his home instance). If you want to make sure ppl don’t kick you be nice and helpful.

If you don’t want your party to be taken over by ignorant ppl, get a majority and have you and your friends control the majority.

If you are the minority it’s your fault to be a jerk to be kicked.

When I sell duo Arah, I always make sure that we control the majority by putting in my alt account in the party. That way I don’t get kicked. :P

1 person can easily do this by multibox so it could just be one person.

Stars.2179:

tramwajarz.2369:

mtpelion.4562:

Every member of the party has an equal right to the instance. If a majority of players want to remove you from the instance, that is their right.

The “party leader” is an elitist misnomer. No one has any more right to the party or the instance than any other person.

I fully disagree. When I create a party and make requirements for it, it is my right to moderate my own party. Those people who joined me agreed to be my guests. Noone is entitled for instances or a place in a party. Those who are afraid of being guests would be able to create their own parties and be “immune” to other participants.

Instances is not open world facebook farm. There are so many people entitled to do whatever they want they don’t even care to read LFG descriptions. Those players should feel bad.

I fully disagree. Sound like an elitist dictator to me. No one has more right than any others in a group. No one is entitled to own an instance either (except his home instance). If you want to make sure ppl don’t kick you be nice and helpful.

If you don’t want your party to be taken over by ignorant ppl, get a majority and have you and your friends control the majority.

If you are the minority it’s your fault to be a jerk to be kicked.

When I sell duo Arah, I always make sure that we control the majority by putting in my alt account in the party. That way I don’t get kicked. :P

The case is the OP was nice and helpful and was kicked from his own instance for suggesting a little change to the party. At this point I think he should feel entitled to the instance he managed to duo until Lupicus.

If he was a party leader he would be safe from those ‘elitist jerks’ you are calling me.

Nadya.4250:

…
3 people join, 2 ele & 1 necro all under 3k ap, I let them know that I really don’t feel up to teaching the run this late at night and can they bring heavy armored classes…

Doesn’t seem very nice nor helpful to me. On the other note, he could have invited a guildie as a spot holder

Stars.2179:

Nadya.4250:

…
3 people join, 2 ele & 1 necro all under 3k ap, I let them know that I really don’t feel up to teaching the run this late at night and can they bring heavy armored classes…

Doesn’t seem very nice nor helpful to me. On the other note, he could have invited a guildie as a spot holder

OP also stated: "We posted LFG asking for experienced players as in 3k ap or more. "
Not nice is joining a party asking for requirements you don’t have.

Stars.2179:

Nadya.4250:

…
3 people join, 2 ele & 1 necro all under 3k ap, I let them know that I really don’t feel up to teaching the run this late at night and can they bring heavy armored classes…

Doesn’t seem very nice nor helpful to me. On the other note, he could have invited a guildie as a spot holder

Read the rest of the thread, I’ve already talked about those “guild” arguments.

He wasn’t in a teaching mood and he stated it. It is not his job to teach ignorant players how to finish the path. He asked them to get other professions if they can. He tried to communicate and he was rewarded with a kick. From his own instance. This is terrible and this is why the system should be changed. This way everybody can be harassed. I can join with my guild a “everybody welcome” LFG post and with 2 more friends kick the creator. This is against logic. This is why party leader is a “must be” function in multiplayer game, especially when we’re talking pug environment.

Adding onto the ‘all original party members have equal rights’ idea.

What do folks think about distributing that ‘party leader’ status to all the players that were in the party when the instance started?

The security would come from the fact that you cannot kick all of the original party members, if you join later.

And if all of the original member leave, everyone left in the party at that point is again marked as the new ‘original members’.

Astralporing.1957:

Scoobaniec.9561:

Enjoy your game where everyone and their mom abuse party system by kicking out and stealing instances as they cant be punishment for such things. You can do it youself, ask 2 friends to join someone whos selling arah pX, kick him = ? = profit.

…and then you get banned by Anet. Great idea indeed.

You really believe you get banned for that? O.o

Good luck in life then.

Nadya.4250:

I am suggesting a fix: how about if you’ve been in same dungeon over 40 min and get kicked you automatically get half the reward money and full tokens….

That would be exploited by a group of friends or guildies so easily though. Afk for 40 minutes, come back, get some friends to join and kick you, free profit.

Yeah, no.

If you’ve spent a good amount of time with the game, have learned the mechanics of the game, are capable of completing a dungeon, have more than 5 gold or even just know how to dodge:

You can become the antagonist to some new-player-hero out there.

Don’t try to actually learn anything about the game if you don’t want to be labeled an “elitist.”

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Nadya.4250:

I am suggesting a fix: how about if you’ve been in same dungeon over 40 min and get kicked you automatically get half the reward money and full tokens….

That would be exploited by a group of friends or guildies so easily though. Afk for 40 minutes, come back, get some friends to join and kick you, free profit.

Yeah, no.

Personally for me 40 min is time it takes to do two AC paths so 1.5gold for 40 min would be a loss and worth it at all.

I do like someone-else’s idea, where maybe they let you customize LFG with like check marks for Ap and Class so unless you match both of those criteria you can’t join the group, it should still be visible in case you are willing to swap to requested class… I could live with that… But they seem to only cater to newcomers.

Just really upsetting that those guys last night didn’t simply steal half way finished instance, they also dropped it without completing it. They obviously read the LFG description that said P2-Exp-3kAP-Heavy (at Lupi) and then just ignored all the requests. Yes I know I asked for a lot, but I would never join a group that was that specific, because I’m not a troll like they were.

Nadya.4250:

But that sucks, I get punished because I’m an experienced player… I’ve been with Guild wars from first game to this day, but this honestly first time I felt this mistreated. I feel so frustrated with this.

Next time report them for LFG abuse. Anet will have access to chat logs as a result and will be able to see what was going on. Pretty sure they’ll take action against people joining groups in lfg and then kicking out those who listed it.

edit: the new mechanic is also MUCH fairer than it used to be (aside from the lack of ability to veto a kick)

Aidan Savage.2078:

Nadya.4250:

But that sucks, I get punished because I’m an experienced player… I’ve been with Guild wars from first game to this day, but this honestly first time I felt this mistreated. I feel so frustrated with this.

Next time report them for LFG abuse. Anet will have access to chat logs as a result and will be able to see what was going on. Pretty sure they’ll take action against people joining groups in lfg and then kicking out those who listed it.

edit: the new mechanic is also MUCH fairer than it used to be (aside from the lack of ability to veto a kick)

I was just too upset to do anything to report those guys, I don’t normally ever use that feature, and now I don’t remember their names, and no way am I ever using LFG again unless I have 2 other guildie/friends with me…

I do a lot of “I should have” but it’s all too late now…

Also Thanks for understanding my frustration guys, reading your replies actually calmed me down a bit. Appreciate you all!

you put a lfg asking for experienced people. They didn’t do much wrong except they are not experienced.

I presume you didn’t state you are at middle of dungeon.

I recognize there is an issue here and so far my favorite solution is to have a Party Leader (PL), which would be working similarly to what we had before, but with some differences to avoid as much as possible abuses.

PL Features:

• The player opening the dungeon automatically becomes PL;
• The PL may choose to name someone else as PL;
• If the PL leaves the party, the next person in order that joined becomes PL;
• The PL has a marking to identify him/her as party leader near their name (e.g. brawl champion crown or commander pin) and on the mini map;
• The PL cannot be kicked. If a party member tries to kick them, the attempt will still be shown in party chat as it is currently the case;
• PL must accept kick request before they can be voted on (count as a vote);
• The kick request is cancelled if the PL rejects the request;
• Kick requests still require 50% players (includes PL initial vote) to agree;
• If the kick request is pending for more than 1 minute it is cancelled;
• If a player is idle for more than 5 minutes in a dungeon, a kick request will be automatically prompted for vote.

We could also have more detailed party requirements in the LFG tool so that incompatible people won’t be in the same party and therefore avoid many kicks:

• Level/fractal requirement;
• Agony resistance (for fractal);
• Gear rarity (any, exotic, ascended);
• Gear stats or player stats;
• Run type (casual, roleplay, experienced, speed clear);
• Achievement Points;
• Class slots to be filled (e.g. M, T, W, G, E);
• Etc…

All I can think of for now. To be discussed.

Nadya.4250:

But that sucks, I get punished because I’m an experienced player… I’ve been with Guild wars from first game to this day, but this honestly first time I felt this mistreated. I feel so frustrated with this.

No, you were punished because you grouped PUGs with no experience.

sMihaly.1492:

what if… ppl with insufficient AP would’nt be able to see AP restricted LFGs

I love this idea. Create AP levels, if your account doesn’t have it too bad you can work your way up like the rest of us.

How about if the group clears up to a certain point, 3 out of 5 bosses downed or certain markers reached, they can’t be kicked. Or if they can be kicked or d/c and come back and start a new dungeon, the content they’ve cleared stays cleared for a subjective amount of time so they don’t have to do it all over again.

laokoko.7403:

you put a lfg asking for experienced people. They didn’t do much wrong except they are not experienced.

I presume you didn’t state you are at middle of dungeon.

LFG listing said: P2-Exp-3kAP-Heavy (at Lupi)
But also after they joined, I nicely asked if they could swap to heavies and that’s when I got kicked, I was even willing to deal with 1.8k and 2.2k and 1.2k ap (that’s roughly their ap) none above 3k

Nadya.4250:

laokoko.7403:

you put a lfg asking for experienced people. They didn’t do much wrong except they are not experienced.

I presume you didn’t state you are at middle of dungeon.

LFG listing said: P2-Exp-3kAP-Heavy (at Lupi)
But also after they joined, I nicely asked if they could swap to heavies and that’s when I got kicked, I was even willing to deal with 1.8k and 2.2k and 1.2k ap (that’s roughly their ap) none above 3k

I dont’ even put AP requirement now. Some times I put AP requirement, and people get kittened of it. They’ll repeately join the party just so they can leave and make you repost.

Fortunately I got better at this game, so most of the easy dungeon/fractal I can get through even running with a bunch of new players.

Anet should probably add lfg filters or just hide AP. I dont’ think those new players appreciate to be left out of the group because of their AP.

OP, I sympathize with you as you unfairly got kicked, but any other system in place of this one would be worse. I wouldn’t feel too bad about it as you only got through Belka and the Champ Abo, nothing that couldn’t be done in 10-15 mins with two ppl.

There was one time I and a friend joined a guildie to help him kill tar and lupi, then we left so he could sell the instance but he ended up leaving it because he couldn’t handle running to the last boss. That WAS a disappointment XD

A party leader system is no no. No player should be able to own the group. No player should be entitled to act with immunity. That is open for so many exploits, troll and griefing. The system we have now with majority vote, though flaw, is the best that we could ever have.

tramwajarz.2369:

mtpelion.4562:

When you use LFG, you get no say in who winds up in your party.

I understand that playing at 2AM means you probably don’t have any friends online to help you, but you gambled and lost.

LFG shouldn’t be gamble.

Yes, that is exactly what it is and should be.

TBH, I think it’s extremely unfortunate that it isn’t just an automatic grouping system, as it means that newer players will tend to be excluded.

Or even just singled out as such, if they only join “everyone welcome” type groups and then tend to get lectured on exactly how to play.

I was in a group like that, when I was still doing a few dungeons and the other 3 newer players were clearly so, utterly, bored and frustrated, as the “pro” group maker lectured continuously and refused to take part unless they followed his orders, exactly, that I think it’s highly likely that they will have just left the game by now.

At one point he was just standing in a corner, for about half an hour, chatting to his guild (probably about how awful the “noobs” were and how patient he must be to tolerate them).

Tigaseye.2047:

tramwajarz.2369:

mtpelion.4562:

When you use LFG, you get no say in who winds up in your party.

I understand that playing at 2AM means you probably don’t have any friends online to help you, but you gambled and lost.

LFG shouldn’t be gamble.

Yes, that is exactly what it is and should be.

TBH, I think it’s extremely unfortunate that it isn’t just an automatic grouping system, as it means that newer players will tend to be excluded.

Or even just singled out as such, if they only join “everyone welcome” type groups and then tend to get lectured on exactly how to play.

So players who wish to have a relatively quick and smooth run but don’t have a huge number of guild mates or friends on have to put up with someone who doesn’t mind taking the time to smell the roses? And neither of the two are in the wrong, both ways are valid ways to play the game. They just happen to be two opposing ways.

What would solve 75% of the problems is if everyone would respect LFG’s.

Players putting in what they want into the LFG. And players reading the LFG before joining. And then if they find they don’t meet the requirements, graciously leaving the party on their own.

What would solve 24% of the problems is if people who used the LFG realized that since it is PUG runs that get formed on the LFG, that you can’t expect every run to go as expected.

You can’t solve all of them as there will always be jerks and trolls.

Seera.5916:

So players who wish to have a relatively quick and smooth run but don’t have a huge number of guild mates or friends on have to put up with someone who doesn’t mind taking the time to smell the roses? And neither of the two are in the wrong, both ways are valid ways to play the game. They just happen to be two opposing ways.

What would solve 75% of the problems is if everyone would respect LFG’s.

Players putting in what they want into the LFG. And players reading the LFG before joining. And then if they find they don’t meet the requirements, graciously leaving the party on their own.

What would solve 24% of the problems is if people who used the LFG realized that since it is PUG runs that get formed on the LFG, that you can’t expect every run to go as expected.

You can’t solve all of them as there will always be jerks and trolls.

It’s human natural. Nothing you can do.

and if the person can’t carry bad pug, that person are probably not that good too. Many of the solo dungeon time are faster than most pug.

laokoko.7403:

Seera.5916:

So players who wish to have a relatively quick and smooth run but don’t have a huge number of guild mates or friends on have to put up with someone who doesn’t mind taking the time to smell the roses? And neither of the two are in the wrong, both ways are valid ways to play the game. They just happen to be two opposing ways.

What would solve 75% of the problems is if everyone would respect LFG’s.

Players putting in what they want into the LFG. And players reading the LFG before joining. And then if they find they don’t meet the requirements, graciously leaving the party on their own.

What would solve 24% of the problems is if people who used the LFG realized that since it is PUG runs that get formed on the LFG, that you can’t expect every run to go as expected.

You can’t solve all of them as there will always be jerks and trolls.

It’s human natural. Nothing you can do.

and if you can’t carry bad pug, you are probably not that good yourself. Many of the solo dungeon time are faster than most pug.

Just because someone can carry a bad pug, doesn’t mean that they want to. That it is fun for them to do so.

And isn’t that what games are supposed to be? Fun.

So why should someone be forced to play with those that they do not wish to play with at that moment?

I’m still new to Dungeons so I generally use LFG I prefer the Everyone welcome groups, sometimes I even start my own. I don’t have a problem with the ppl who know what they want in a group, personally I respect them for being honest and upfront about it and I respect them enough not to join where I’m not wanted and probably won’t be as useful as the player they are looking for. A little bit of common courtesy goes a long way in RL and in game too more players should considering brushing on on that trait IMO.

Seera.5916:

Just because someone can carry a bad pug, doesn’t mean that they want to. That it is fun for them to do so.

And isn’t that what games are supposed to be? Fun.

So why should someone be forced to play with those that they do not wish to play with at that moment?

Well, people are always demanding other people to be good. They never take a look at themselves and see they are not that good too.

That’s all I’m saying.

Quite honestly, the way I see it, most of the QQing are from bad players about terrible players.

I QQed before about bad pug myself, quite honestly, if I’m better, I wouldn’t complain.

Seera.5916:

Tigaseye.2047:

tramwajarz.2369:

mtpelion.4562:

When you use LFG, you get no say in who winds up in your party.

I understand that playing at 2AM means you probably don’t have any friends online to help you, but you gambled and lost.

LFG shouldn’t be gamble.

Yes, that is exactly what it is and should be.

TBH, I think it’s extremely unfortunate that it isn’t just an automatic grouping system, as it means that newer players will tend to be excluded.

Or even just singled out as such, if they only join “everyone welcome” type groups and then tend to get lectured on exactly how to play.

So players who wish to have a relatively quick and smooth run but don’t have a huge number of guild mates or friends on have to put up with someone who doesn’t mind taking the time to smell the roses? And neither of the two are in the wrong, both ways are valid ways to play the game. They just happen to be two opposing ways.

What would solve 75% of the problems is if everyone would respect LFG’s.

Players putting in what they want into the LFG. And players reading the LFG before joining. And then if they find they don’t meet the requirements, graciously leaving the party on their own.

What would solve 24% of the problems is if people who used the LFG realized that since it is PUG runs that get formed on the LFG, that you can’t expect every run to go as expected.

You can’t solve all of them as there will always be jerks and trolls.

I, personally, don’t think the LFG system works, at all and whereas it may make life (temporarily) easier for the “pros”, I don’t think your suggestion solves anything for newer players.

As a typical new player, you have two choices: join anything and hope for the best (and probably have a horrible experience and be kicked), or only join “everyone welcome” type groups and stand a very good chance of having a desperately boring, long, “training” run, where nothing is spontaneous and everything is a chore.

Whereas, in a totally random system (where you can’t make any demands/state terms), most players are more prepared to accept what they get.

Yes, there are still some players who are intolerant of “noobs” (i.e. immature idiots), but most people get that it’s a pot luck system, so you get what you get.

This means most groups are a mixture of newer and older players, leading to a more balanced, fun and less formal learning experience for newer players.

I guess I was a relatively experienced(ish) WoW player by the time I left and I normally did PUG runs via the LFD system (rather than making my own groups) and I just accepted that there would be experienced and less experienced players and some runs would be smoother than others.

That is how it should be, IMO.

The more you separate people into “new player” and “pro” groups, the more divided we all become (and stay) and the less likely newer players are to bother to stay playing the game, at all, as it just isn’t fun for them.

I’m only still hanging on by a thread due to WvW…

There are a lot more problems with how fun dungeons, in this game, seem (or don’t seem), to newer players, than just the grouping system, admittedly, but still.

It doesn’t help.

Tigaseye.2047:

Seera.5916:

Tigaseye.2047:

tramwajarz.2369:

mtpelion.4562:

When you use LFG, you get no say in who winds up in your party.

I understand that playing at 2AM means you probably don’t have any friends online to help you, but you gambled and lost.

LFG shouldn’t be gamble.

Yes, that is exactly what it is and should be.

TBH, I think it’s extremely unfortunate that it isn’t just an automatic grouping system, as it means that newer players will tend to be excluded.

Or even just singled out as such, if they only join “everyone welcome” type groups and then tend to get lectured on exactly how to play.

So players who wish to have a relatively quick and smooth run but don’t have a huge number of guild mates or friends on have to put up with someone who doesn’t mind taking the time to smell the roses? And neither of the two are in the wrong, both ways are valid ways to play the game. They just happen to be two opposing ways.

What would solve 75% of the problems is if everyone would respect LFG’s.

Players putting in what they want into the LFG. And players reading the LFG before joining. And then if they find they don’t meet the requirements, graciously leaving the party on their own.

What would solve 24% of the problems is if people who used the LFG realized that since it is PUG runs that get formed on the LFG, that you can’t expect every run to go as expected.

You can’t solve all of them as there will always be jerks and trolls.

I, personally, don’t think the LFG system works, at all and whereas it may make life (temporarily) easier for the “pros”, I don’t think your suggestion solves anything for newer players.

As a typical new player, you have two choices: join anything and hope for the best (and probably have a horrible experience and be kicked), or only join “everyone welcome” type groups and stand a very good chance of having a desperately boring, long, “training” run, where nothing is spontaneous and everything is a chore.

Whereas, in a totally random system (where you can’t make any demands/state terms), most players are more prepared to accept what they get.

Yes, there are still some players who are intolerant of “noobs” (i.e. immature idiots), but most people get that it’s a pot luck system, so you get what you get.

This means most groups are a mixture of newer and older players, leading to a more balanced, fun and less formal learning experience for newer players.

I guess I was a relatively experienced(ish) WoW player by the time I left and I normally did PUG runs via the LFD system (rather than making my own groups) and I just accepted that there would be experienced and less experienced players and some runs would be smoother than others.

That is how it should be, IMO.

The more you separate people into “new player” and “pro” groups, the more divided we all become (and stay) and the less likely newer players are to bother to stay playing the game, at all, as it just isn’t fun for them.

I’m only still hanging on by a thread due to WvW…

There are a lot more problems with how fun dungeons, in this game, seem (or don’t seem), to newer players, than just the grouping system, admittedly, but still.

It doesn’t help.

You’re still forcing players to do things that they don’t find fun.

And should a system be into place, the experienced players will go back to using external sites to find groups like they did before there was an LFG.

Meaning there is a greatly reduced pool of experienced players in the LFG pool.

The new will still find themselves with a "desperately boring, long, “training” run, where nothing is spontaneous and everything is a chore".

I hardly ever do dungeons or group up, but I can foresee an upcoming problem that nobody’s mentioned yet.

When HoT hits, we’re going to have events in a new area that not everyone can access. Not only that, but the mastery system will make some of the new areas inaccessible until you’ve progressed far enough along the right mastery tracks, and some foes unreasonably difficult until you’ve gained the masteries to fight/survive them.

This is going to make the LFG system problems much, MUCH worse for people playing in HoT. We need to think of a way to fix it now, while there’s still a hope that good ideas can be implemented to deal with it.

Crimson Clouds.4853:

So, at every chest (after completing the mini-bosses/tasks) you receive a key of some-sort that you can use when you reach the end chest. The key stays in your inventory even if you dc. The key is accountbound and specific for the dungeon (e.g. “Arah Chest Key”). There is a limit to how many keys you can use in one dungeon instance (if there are 5 chests to open throughout the dungeon, the end chest can only be opened 5 times). The keys have a 24 hour timer on them and automatically get destroyed/broken.

This surely bypasses the dc problem. The details also prevent people hoarding them and farming the first boss of a dungeon and leaving (and then jumping into a party at the end and spamming their keys).

I really, REALLY like this idea! I’d change the bit about keys disappearing after 24 hours, and instead make them work like the matrix key from the reactor (can’t carry more than one of each type in inventory). That, plus the right number of chests at the end (5 keys in the dungeon? Then only 5 bonus chests.) should prevent any problems.

This also might make speed runners reconsider what parts they want to try and skip, if there’s a key to be had in those parts.

If I may, I’d suggest making a new thread for this idea, as it’s a bit off the main topic and I’d hate to see it get lost in the discussion.

Seera.5916:

You’re still forcing players to do things that they don’t find fun.

And should a system be into place, the experienced players will go back to using external sites to find groups like they did before there was an LFG.

Meaning there is a greatly reduced pool of experienced players in the LFG pool.

The new will still find themselves with a "desperately boring, long, “training” run, where nothing is spontaneous and everything is a chore".

Well, I’m sorry, but if someone finds new players un-fun and an inconvenience, they really shouldn’t be playing an MMO, IMO.

Or should only be playing it with very close friends/guildies and not using LFG.

As I say, I believe I am in a position to say this, as I was a relatively experienced WoW player who happily did dungeons and things like LFR (and Flex) with less experienced players.

I guess I could have refused and made my own groups – but, if anything, I enjoyed the challenge newer players brought, as it forced me to try to play better myself, to overcome any lack of DPS, or whatever.

As I say, it’s not all the grouping system’s fault, in this game – part of the problem is the design of the game itself.

A game like WoW is far more fluid and well designed (sorry, but it really is…), so even though you might need to give very new players a couple of tips, every now and then, it’s never a case of a rigid formula of “Always skip these mobs.”, “Always stack right here, melee only and don’t move at all, all fight, except to dodge into the wall.”, rinse and repeat, or anything like that.

If you’re busy playing a game like WoW, unless you’re a DPS/HPS obsessive, you might not even notice that someone else is fairly new (unless they’re really new to online gaming, in general), as they are probably just about getting by and there are normally not set rules about how to play every step of the dungeon.

Similarly, there are no real set rules (anymore) about which specs and talents to use (unless, perhaps, someone has queued as a healer/tank and is actually specced/geared for DPS).

So, unlike this game, chances are no one feels the need to lecture people endlessly, on everything, throughout a dungeon run, anyway.

This is a gorgeous game, it really is, but in terms of natural, intuitive, fluid, interesting gameplay and fun grouping experiences it fails miserably, especially for newer players.

Just remove the kick function within the dungeon itself. Let the kick function work prior to entering the instance, so if you wanted to do a speed run, you can tailor out any people who don’t qualify before hand. But once you enter the instance, you are stuck with that party.

In my experience, I see more abuse from people who, having gone through 95% of the dungeon with one group, kick folks at the end to add a friend/guild on the last boss than i do with people trying to sabotage a group…

Tigaseye.2047:

Seera.5916:

You’re still forcing players to do things that they don’t find fun.

And should a system be into place, the experienced players will go back to using external sites to find groups like they did before there was an LFG.

Meaning there is a greatly reduced pool of experienced players in the LFG pool.

The new will still find themselves with a "desperately boring, long, “training” run, where nothing is spontaneous and everything is a chore".

Well, I’m sorry, but if someone finds new players un-fun and an inconvenience, they really shouldn’t be playing an MMO, IMO.

Or should only be playing it with very close friends/guildies and not using LFG.

As I say, I believe I am in a position to say this, as I was a relatively experienced WoW player who happily did dungeons and things like LFR (and Flex) with less experienced players.

I guess I could have refused and made my own groups – but, if anything, I enjoyed the challenge newer players brought, as it forced me to try to play better myself, to overcome any lack of DPS, or whatever.

As I say, it’s not all the grouping system’s fault, in this game – part of the problem is the design of the game itself.

A game like WoW is far more fluid and well designed (sorry, but it really is…), so even though you might need to give very new players a couple of tips, every now and then, it’s never a case of a rigid formula of “Always skip these mobs.”, “Always stack right here and don’t move at all, all fight, except to dodge into the wall.”, rinse and repeat, or anything like that.

If you’re busy playing a game like WoW, unless you’re a DPS/HPS obsessive, you might not even notice that someone else is fairly new (unless they’re really new to online gaming, in general), as they are probably just about getting by and there are normally not set rules about how to play every step of the dungeon.

Similarly, there are no real set rules (anymore) about which specs and talents to use (unless, perhaps, someone has queued as a healer/tank and is actually specced/geared for DPS).

So, unlike this game, chances are no one feels the need to lecture people endlessly, on everything, throughout a dungeon run, anyway.

This is a gorgeous game, it really is, but in terms of natural, intuitive, fluid, interesting gameplay and fun grouping experiences it fails miserably, especially for newer players.

At this point, anything that forces the two groups of players to play together will be doomed to fail.

They’ll either argue in chat over what method to use or what skills or traits to use. The experienced fast and smooth run players complain about how the players are slowing them down. The play how I want players will complain about how the players are trying to force them to play another way.

Eventually most everyone is aware of the external LFG site again and dungeon LFG’s move out of the game. Because they’d rather wait than get paired with players who do not share their philosophy.

Except for new players and true casuals. Because there may be times when players want to run with people who have done the dungeon at least one time and not be completely new to the dungeon. Or want to have silly requirements to just have fun on the run.

Yeah. There will always be those kind of people who are apparently kittenish enough to kick the people who originally started the instance.

If I may make a suggestion on how issues like this can be avoided even further, it might be to have some form of password protection in an LFG if someone wants to join that specific party kind of like in PvP if you want to go to a specific player’s arena. That way you will less likely encounter those player types. On the other hand it would also hamper your capability to attract enough players to fill up the remaining slots.

Malkavian.4516:

Yeah. There will always be those kind of people who are apparently kittenish enough to kick the people who originally started the instance.

If I may make a suggestion on how issues like this can be avoided even further, it might be to have some form of password protection in an LFG if someone wants to join that specific party kind of like in PvP if you want to go to a specific player’s arena. That way you will less likely encounter those player types. On the other hand it would also hamper your capability to attract enough players to fill up the remaining slots.

How do you inform others of the password?