Guild Wars 2

Wallace MacBix.2089:

ozmaniandevil.6805:

Well speaking as someone who’s only gaming experience before GW2 was the Sims, I can say that it is very complex. I had no idea what the TP was or how to use it. If it wasn’t for my kids’ help I would have probably run around for an hour and deleted the game. Now that I’ve done a TON of reading and playing, I actually show my kids a lot of tricks and tips.

Okay, thank you for providing an example of what was confusing to you personally. Just some questions for clarification. I can understand the tp being a bit confusing at first. But when you say you needed your kids help, do you mean for the tp specifically or for the game as a whole. And how much did the in game hints help you. The list of in game hints seems to cover most of the basics of playing, but I’ve been a gamer my entire life, so to me they seem to be enough. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hints

I think it’s really rude and mean to suggest that someone new to the game isn’t intelligent or needs “hand holding”. In game, there is NO useful help or guide. The wiki is somewhat helpful but it is also quite complicated sometimes, if you’ve never played this type of game before. All you people who make fun of new players should be ashamed of yourselves. I’m sure everyone would love to walk into this knowing everything, just like you know it all now.

Well, for starters, I don’t think I made fun of any players (other than strongly disagreeing with most of what the OP said), but if I did, I didn’t mean to, so sorry. I just said that most of the OP’s suggestions seemed like hand holding to me. As for help, did the Hints menu help at all, or any of the on screen prompts? If I recall you start the game with just one weapon skill and your heal skill in the starter personal story zone. If you’ve only ever played the sims I can see managing movement/attacking/healing being a bit of a learning curve.

What would have made the game more accessible to you?

It was more than the TP. There were lots and lots of things that now seem obvious if I were to, say, start an alt toon – basically start from scratch again. I had no idea about WvW or what it meant or how to access it or participate until a guildmate helped me out. I remember going in there once, running around for 5 minutes not knowing ANYTHING about where to go or what to do, and getting my behind handed to me and WP back to beginning, saying “this is stupid and frustrating”. Don’t get me started on PvP. It would be good if there were maybe in-game mini tutorial videos. Walk me through it, because I have never played an MMO before and I’m not “gamer”. I love GW2 however, and I’m glad I stuck it out and found some helpful people along the way.

My point is, look at this game from the perspective of someone with NO gaming experience, and then cut those people some slack. I have learned not to look in-game for real help in GW2, but as a newbie I had no idea about the 3rd party websites, as I’m sure most newbies don’t.

Oxstar.7643:

This game ain’t complex… Trust me, I got tales to tell that you entitled kids would not believe.

You do realize that the existence of games more complex than GW2 does not logically follow that this game is not complex, right? All MMO games are complex. They are detailed, involved, large, and ever-changing. Those alone make them complex by definition.

Also, to anyone that has never played an MMO before, they are going to feel that there is a certain amount of complexity in general regardless.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Oxstar.7643:

This game ain’t complex… Trust me, I got tales to tell that you entitled kids would not believe.

You do realize that the existence of games more complex than GW2 does not logically follow that this game is not complex, right? All MMO games are complex. They are detailed, involved, large, and ever-changing. Those alone make them complex by definition.

Also, to anyone that has never played an MMO before, they are going to feel that there is a certain amount of complexity in general regardless.

Nah, this game ain’t complex, not really. They should try Aion.

ozmaniandevil.6805:

My point is, look at this game from the perspective of someone with NO gaming experience, and then cut those people some slack. I have learned not to look in-game for real help in GW2, but as a newbie I had no idea about the 3rd party websites, as I’m sure most newbies don’t.

You have a point here. I’ve played MMOs before and still do but I quit this game after about two months and came back a few weeks ago to give it another go. It was still rather confusing what was all going on with this living story stuff and new zones etc. So I imagine that’s what it’s like as a new player to online gaming. I would think there is a lot going on and nothing to really guide you through it.

I understand that more seasoned players don’t want tutorials but other games have tutorials that can be turned off easily, so that shouldn’t be a problem. The wiki page for GW1 also took some time to build up but it seems to me that it was much more complete than the current one when it was out 1 year.

I think in general though that sadly there are less people who want to take the time.

There is a site called dulfy.net and she covers various games. I tend to like her approach a lot better. It’s a good source of information really.

ShadowPuppet.3746:

GG man, do people really need their hands held that much that they are not capable of googling something? On a more serious note, I would wager that the reasons these things are not in the game is two fold:
1.) Developer resources
2.) To give the appearance of a sandbox title and to try and encourage people to discover things on their own.

3) trying to provide answers for people who know nothing when you know everything is an extremely difficult thing to do. That is trying to provide answers to question people didn’t know they were supposed to ask. In that regard feedback from people having trouble with the game is useful however the OP is not in that group. The OP seems to want to spray all new players with an information firehose.

On the issue of hints. Some people just don’t ready.
For proof see all the complaints associated about the Zenith skins even though each item’s tooltip tells you that you can get more.

Many useful information is provided through these on hover tooltips but many people just don’t read them or are somehow missing them. That is a broken information delivery mechanism. There are important things in the patch notes too but not everyone reads those either.

The other problem is that many times they pop up at inconvenient times. If I am in the middle of fighting something and one of those things pop up I am going to get rid of it ASAP without reading so I can get back to doing things like avoid dying.

Tutorials do not necessarily have to be boring things where Captain Obvious follows you around and spell everything out for you. They can just lead you places and let you draw your own conclusions.

I agree the game could use a bit more of a tutorial to at least highlight the differences between the standard MMO tropes such as the triad and raiding. As well as something that could go over the entire UI. When you first pick a master for crafting, an overview of the crafting UI. You can’t cover the lack of any in game guidance by pointing to the wiki. Where do they even go over in game about invoking the wiki from in game?

“Mistakes” I made. First thought I needed to go to a waypoint to jump to a different waypoint. The fear that cities aren’t safe zones. Understanding what I was doing wrong with crafting discovery. Buying and equipping gathering tools. Not realizing the bank and TP is player not character aligned. What all the attribute numbers really mean.

The “if you only knew this” sticking in the player helping player board answers a lot of these question but you need to go on the forum to find out about it. And some players have been conditioned in other games not to ask newb questions on a game’s forum.

And yes, I hate helpful popups when you first discover something. I don’t want a popup to inform me I just did conditional damage for the first time while I’m in the middle of Jungle SpiderFest 2013. Put it in some discover tab that I can look at while not fighting for my life than in the middle of a screen as I’ve seen in some games.

Jatacid.3725:

I’ve been running around 100%ing some of the lower level maps lately and helping low levellers.

Today I was chatting with someone who said something really true.

He said how the game is extremely complex, but there aren’t very many, if any, adequate tutorials or in game help to guide players.

I’ve been level 80 for many a months now, and I have to agree.

Without visiting the Wiki, or reading considerable amount of information online, your hope of grasping this game is reduced dramatically. This gives new people the wrong idea about how the game works, and makes the initial experience far less positive.

~~

Why aren’t there more step-by-step tutorials and game processes?

You know, like the first time you do a dungeon, instead of having a random letter sent in your mail, have an actual quest to do as part of your story. The NPC’s can explain how there are different ‘paths’ you can take, and how you can earn rewards. And even where to go to spend those rewards.

Or, the first time you pick up a crafting discipline. Have the first 25 levels actually guided for you. Give players one of those Crafting Discipline Starter Kits as part of a level up reward.
Then the NPC can walk you through literally step-by-step. How to deposit collectables, how to craft and how to ‘discover’ new items.

sPvP! Have new pvpers start at rank minus 5: “chicken”. and work their way up to Rabbit.
The first tutorial rank, you only have to choose your weapon(the rest is greyed out and predetermined with celestial gear), next rank you learn how to equip armor, then next rank weapons, then next rank traits. Giving pvp skin/rewards as you unlock so you can figure out how to use that too.
This would help ‘ease’ into sPvP, and enjoy it far more in the early stages.

~

Here are a bunch of other things that are confusing in GW2 especially for new players.

No ‘holy trinity’
No ‘quests’
Difference between hearts and world events.
How to make ‘combos’ with your character.
What to do with Karma
When to start crafting
When and how to do dungeons (forcing one story mode playthrough would really help this)
What salvaging kit to buy and what to salvage
What items to sell to the merchant
What gathering tools to use, what to gather.
How to use the ‘deposit collectables’ feature
Where to explore (main story line doesn’t take you through all zones. Thus exploring is self-reliant)
Names of stat type: i.e carrion/bezerkers/etc
sPVP!
sPVP Rewards.
WvW & associated rewards.
List of end-game armor options available to the player. (crafting/dungeons/gold/karma)
List of end-game weapon options available. and how to get it.
How to use the mystic forge and why

Here is the GW2 manual https://www.guildwars2.com/en/manual/

Ghettoblade.7962:

Complex..LOL…this is the sesame street of mmo’s

Indeed. If you want some complexity, try EVE, or even some oldschool MMOs like AO.

Complexity definitely isn’t holding his game back in any capacity.

I think people should be more tolerant.

You may have played dozens of MMOs so to you Guild Wars 2 is easy. There are people who are playing this as their very first MMO and even more, I know a few people who are playing this as the very first game ever. Not just computer game, but very first game.

Everyone has different levels of experience, and knowledge and expecting people to find stuff easy because those who grew up with games find them easy isn’t particularly a nice way to invite newcomers to your game.

I think the OP has a point. There are things in this game that aren’t well explained and tutorials would help a portion of the player base.

Vayne.8563:

I think people should be more tolerant.

You may have played dozens of MMOs so to you Guild Wars 2 is easy. There are people who are playing this as their very first MMO and even more, I know a few people who are playing this as the very first game ever. Not just computer game, but very first game.

Everyone has different levels of experience, and knowledge and expecting people to find stuff easy because those who grew up with games find them easy isn’t particularly a nice way to invite newcomers to your game.

I think the OP has a point. There are things in this game that aren’t well explained and tutorials would help a portion of the player base.

But the thing is vayne, gw2 also is filled with elitists that want to pop the usual statement ’’I’m pro and all you guys are scrubs whining for nothing’’, so people saying that the tutorial is fine are the same ones that say liandri is cake, tier 4 with a team at trials was easy-pie and so on. I can’t remember the number of times I see people getting told ’’l2p’’ for any single thing.

Kronus.6048:

Vayne.8563:

I think people should be more tolerant.

You may have played dozens of MMOs so to you Guild Wars 2 is easy. There are people who are playing this as their very first MMO and even more, I know a few people who are playing this as the very first game ever. Not just computer game, but very first game.

Everyone has different levels of experience, and knowledge and expecting people to find stuff easy because those who grew up with games find them easy isn’t particularly a nice way to invite newcomers to your game.

I think the OP has a point. There are things in this game that aren’t well explained and tutorials would help a portion of the player base.

But the thing is vayne, gw2 also is filled with elitists that want to pop the usual statement ’’I’m pro and all you guys are scrubs whining for nothing’’, so people saying that the tutorial is fine are the same ones that say liandri is cake, tier 4 with a team at trials was easy-pie and so on. I can’t remember the number of times I see people getting told ’’l2p’’ for any single thing.

Somehow, I think people who are asking for tutorials aren’t finding Liadri at all, never mind easy. lol

Vayne.8563:

Kronus.6048:

Vayne.8563:

I think people should be more tolerant.

You may have played dozens of MMOs so to you Guild Wars 2 is easy. There are people who are playing this as their very first MMO and even more, I know a few people who are playing this as the very first game ever. Not just computer game, but very first game.

Everyone has different levels of experience, and knowledge and expecting people to find stuff easy because those who grew up with games find them easy isn’t particularly a nice way to invite newcomers to your game.

I think the OP has a point. There are things in this game that aren’t well explained and tutorials would help a portion of the player base.

But the thing is vayne, gw2 also is filled with elitists that want to pop the usual statement ’’I’m pro and all you guys are scrubs whining for nothing’’, so people saying that the tutorial is fine are the same ones that say liandri is cake, tier 4 with a team at trials was easy-pie and so on. I can’t remember the number of times I see people getting told ’’l2p’’ for any single thing.

Somehow, I think people who are asking for tutorials aren’t finding Liadri at all, never mind easy. lol

no, but my point is that the same people that find that gw2 does not need a tutorial are the same guys that think everything is easy. I’ll give you an example that frustrates me, and that comes from a guy that finished liandri. Some traits/skills give you descriptions like ‘’increased hp regeneration’‘, ’’increased power’’, ‘’pets do more condition damage’’. Why do I have to test it as a player instead of getting the freaking % or number ? Instead of seeing it I have to take a sheet of paper, a calculator and start doing tests or check online for people that had to do that.

There are ways of doing things to where you don’t need to have everything spelled out for you. From a game design POV it’s a bad thing to have to explicitly tell a player hey do this here. It should be far more natural than that.

This is a good video on this subject (conveyance)

Warning: contains some adult language as the popup in before the video begins warns, but it’s funny and educational.

At the VERY least please dear kitten god let me be able to skip these tutorials.

In some areas GW2 does a fine job of this imo. Like with how the maps tell you when a new DR pops up. However in other areas it’s a big wth…

Lets take a warrior in a dung for the first time. Say there is a mesmer in the party and he uses time warp like a good mesmer. I’ve seen SO many people run out of the circle because before this point most circles are bad. Yes there is a little buff icon, but to the warrior… god only knows what caused it since his own haste skill isn’t produced by a field.

The warrior also has a ton of finishers, but not many combo fields. The warrior will naturally have no clue what his blast finisher does in the purple circle (ethereal field) other than it apparently produces some bubbles.

None of what is going on is conveyed very well to the player.

@OP. Oh I don’t know, doesn’t seem overly confusing to me. I’ve led many new and returning players through the game, they catch on fast. I seem always explaining something no matter what level the player is.

The difference is you are talking about scripted hand-holding, rather than some form of player mentoring. Hand-holding can never be perfect, but mentoring is really the thing for mmo’s.

Easy fix, create a somewhat rewarding system to mentor new players. Grouping with “new accounts” by vet accounts and achieving certain group participation events results in some form of reward or status towards the vet account.

The only real downside I see right now are less players filling newbie zones doing newbie events. The vet players remember newbie zones always in overflow, always someone there to explain things and group with.

Kronus.6048:

no, but my point is that the same people that find that gw2 does not need a tutorial are the same guys that think everything is easy. I’ll give you an example that frustrates me, and that comes from a guy that finished liandri. Some traits/skills give you descriptions like ‘’increased hp regeneration’‘, ’’increased power’’, ‘’pets do more condition damage’’. Why do I have to test it as a player instead of getting the freaking % or number ? Instead of seeing it I have to take a sheet of paper, a calculator and start doing tests or check online for people that had to do that.

Yeah that’s the devs fault. Has nothing to do with complexity, but sheer laziness, unless they think they have something to gain by making players use others for testing purposes/test themselves.

crestpiemangler.7631:

Kronus.6048:

no, but my point is that the same people that find that gw2 does not need a tutorial are the same guys that think everything is easy. I’ll give you an example that frustrates me, and that comes from a guy that finished liandri. Some traits/skills give you descriptions like ‘’increased hp regeneration’‘, ’’increased power’’, ‘’pets do more condition damage’’. Why do I have to test it as a player instead of getting the freaking % or number ? Instead of seeing it I have to take a sheet of paper, a calculator and start doing tests or check online for people that had to do that.

Yeah that’s the devs fault. Has nothing to do with complexity, but sheer laziness, unless they think they have something to gain by making players use others for testing purposes/test themselves.

In a way it is complex especially if it’s something like conditions from pets deal more damage and this complexity does indeed come from the devs laziness but if you did liandri, you’ll know the complexity of it was also because of buggy things like messed up camera, very annoying red circle that you barely see as well as lag thanks to the 70 other people below you spamming rainbow skills.

Kronus.6048:

In a way it is complex especially if it’s something like conditions from pets deal more damage and this complexity does indeed come from the devs laziness but if you did liandri, you’ll know the complexity of it was also because of buggy things like messed up camera, very annoying red circle that you barely see as well as lag thanks to the 70 other people below you spamming rainbow skills.

Liadri wasn’t complex, just terribly annoying.

Solving for the slope of a linear function is also kind of an annoyance, since the solution is right in front of your face.

At least that’s how I interpret annoying: easy to figure out, but not pleasing to execute.

Bad camera angles ftw

crestpiemangler.7631:

Kronus.6048:

In a way it is complex especially if it’s something like conditions from pets deal more damage and this complexity does indeed come from the devs laziness but if you did liandri, you’ll know the complexity of it was also because of buggy things like messed up camera, very annoying red circle that you barely see as well as lag thanks to the 70 other people below you spamming rainbow skills.

Liadri wasn’t complex, just terribly annoying.

Solving for the slope of a linear function is also kind of an annoyance, since the solution is right in front of your face.

At least that’s how I interpret annoying: easy to figure out, but not pleasing to execute.

Bad camera angles ftw

ok try frustrating then and I still wish you could color that dang circle to make it more visible. I loathed a lot of the moments spent in gauntlet due to those ‘’tiny hindrances’’

BACK in my day, i was learning as i went. Wiki’s were not even fully made for GW2 yet and no dragon timers. Kids now and days :/

Anet said they plan to release a optional “hand-holding” tutorial like those from the GW1 days before the release to china.

Hrithmus.2583:

BACK in my day, i was learning as i went. Wiki’s were not even fully made for GW2 yet and no dragon timers. Kids now and days :/

back in those times, grinding was present everywhere and was seen as a sign of patience. Now you have kids/casuals calling farmers exploiters and people with no skill.

This is one of the simplest MMO’s on the market… you can literally hold down W while spamming 1 and F and win the game. There are no roles to fill, no complex mechanics, no need to do much of anything.

Heck I met a warrior the other day who had T3 armor and 2 legendary weapons and a commander tag and he had no idea that you could dodge in this game. It just simply isn’t needed for a warrior. there is nothing a warrior can’t beat by hitting 1 and 2 and just standing there.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

This is one of the simplest MMO’s on the market… you can literally hold down W while spamming 1 and F and win the game. There are no roles to fill, no complex mechanics, no need to do much of anything.

Heck I met a warrior the other day who had T3 armor and 2 legendary weapons and a commander tag and he had no idea that you could dodge in this game. It just simply isn’t needed for a warrior. there is nothing a warrior can’t beat by hitting 1 and 2 and just standing there.

I assume you’re not talking about some of the champions or Lupi, or Subject Alpha.

Daywolf.2630:

Easy fix, create a somewhat rewarding system to mentor new players. Grouping with “new accounts” by vet accounts and achieving certain group participation events results in some form of reward or status towards the vet account.

UGH! NO!
They could just add it as an option to the LFG thing they are working on but don’t make it about shinies.

He is probably 6 years old. Or very dumb. This game is not complex at all. Wiki is useful only for lazyness sake.

Wallace MacBix.2089:

AlietteFaye.7316:

The wiki is not where new players should be learning how to play the game, to be honest. Good game design will show players how to play the game without being overly intrusive and obstructive to the gameplay.

That is very true. But what was unclear in learning how to play the game to you, that the game didn’t provide? Personally, my memory is horrible, so I can’t really remember last year that well (plus I was excited to play and read up on info before the game launched, so I was pretty biased).

All of the class mechanics are explained. Weapon skills and traits unlock slow enough that you don’t get overwhelmed with decisions, and since you can choose new traits (or even retrait your trait points) you never need to feel locked in, or regret a bad choice.

I didn’t say for me personally. I followed the game way before launch and beta, so I got to learn gradually and intricately about each system and aspect the game would have. However, for new players, a lot of the game is incredibly undetailed and left for them to have to look up to fully understand.

Players that hop into the game are introduced to crowd control abilities such as “launch” or “blowout” without even being told what they actually do. There is not a clear tutorial on how boss monsters gain immunity to said CCs through Defiance. There is never an explanation on how to use the Mystic Forge, much less an introduction to it at all. Crafting can be difficult for new players to understand, as well, since the system works very differently from other games.

These are just examples off the top of my head, but all of them are ones that I feel can easily put off new players.

How much tutoring would one need though? I’m sure having a GW equivalent of Navi throwing a dozen hintboxes on your screen with every 2 steps you took for the first 5 hours of playtime would instantly make people uninstall the game.

I think the game does a pretty good job at explaining a new player what to do. It gives them a 5-10 minute tutorial mission right after character creation, in which the player can learn the very basics of the game. Tooltips show up explaining certain mechanics.

The rest is up to the player to find out. And that’s not a bad thing. The player can learn by actually playing the game, or by asking people in map chat, or by looking up guides or reading the Wiki. There’s plenty of options for new players to go.

Obviously it’s going to be easy to pick up for some, and hard for others, either because of differences in intelligence, or because of differences in paying attention, or both.

Obviously, Anet have to pitch it in the middle somewhere; obviously that is going to be subject to ongoing adjustments.

Is the amount of hand-holding too high or too low in relation to the ideal average, at the moment? Probably a bit too low, but not much. Tooltips are there, and the wiki is there. I agree with those who are saying the China release will probably see some adjustments made, and it will probably be in the direction of a little bit more hand-holding for beginniners, but not much.

Vayne.8563:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

This is one of the simplest MMO’s on the market… you can literally hold down W while spamming 1 and F and win the game. There are no roles to fill, no complex mechanics, no need to do much of anything.

Heck I met a warrior the other day who had T3 armor and 2 legendary weapons and a commander tag and he had no idea that you could dodge in this game. It just simply isn’t needed for a warrior. there is nothing a warrior can’t beat by hitting 1 and 2 and just standing there.

I assume you’re not talking about some of the champions or Lupi, or Subject Alpha.

Yes I should have clarified open world gameplay.

Fractals and 2 or 3 dungeons do require slightly more knowledge of the game. There just aren’t many challenges in the open world. And I don’t mean TS required organized guild challenges, I mean fights that require you to use your utilities and understand the mechanics of the game.

The best example I can use is that of poison. Poison is supposed to reduce healing of other players and enemies. This mechanic was broken for at least 3 months. It was broken for WEEKS before the devs even acknowledged the problem. I don’t actually ever remember a fix in the patch notes, it might STILL be broken. But it doesn’t really matter because there isn’t enough strategy in the game for it to matter. If this same problem happened in a more “traditional” MMO like WoW, it would be completely gamebreaking and fixed within 24 hours guaranteed.

It also has a lot to do with area, the charr and sylvari starting areas are freaking nightmares. Half or more of the events aren’t soloable, you don’t get enough experience to proceed to the next area unless you craft or farm, and there are still dozens of places where respawn rates and mob density are off the charts.

Would you rather be told how to do something or have the satisfaction of figuring it out yourself?

How many people in here confuse “complex” with “complicated”?

http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/10459/what-is-the-difference-between-complicated-and-complex

Khisanth.2948:

Daywolf.2630:

Easy fix, create a somewhat rewarding system to mentor new players. Grouping with “new accounts” by vet accounts and achieving certain group participation events results in some form of reward or status towards the vet account.

UGH! NO!
They could just add it as an option to the LFG thing they are working on but don’t make it about shinies.

ugh no? This isn’t an original idea, I saw it first happen in UO a decade ago. This has happened in a number of games since. Yeah, God forbid someone earn a title or something while being helpful, those peeps are pretty silly for their helpfulness. Not when you can devote 100.000 man hours to make some huge buggy hand-holding system causing even moar scripts to break in the zones. Anyway you wrote shinies, not what I wrote. I never ever said hand out exotics etc..

I think Anet really don’t like tutorials. Before release they kept saying that they hated having to put them into Factions and Nightfall and wanted to avoid that, even though a lot of players were using those two as an example of exactly what they should do. (I and a few other people suggested a compromise where new characters start in tutorial instance like the Heart of the Mists where you can speak to various NPCs who will each teach a different game mechanic and can skip the ones you don’t want, or all of them, but that didn’t happen either.)

Personally I think at the very least they should have made more of an effort to explain the stuff they know is unique to GW2. What really made the point to me was someone in the Players Helping Players section saying they were trying to do heart quests and kept being “waylaid” by dynamic events. They actually saw one of the major aspects of PvE and one of the main sources of experience, karma and gold as getting in the way of their levelling.

That said there is no way they could walk us through absolutely everything that every player finds confusing without ovewhelming us with tutorials because it varies greatly depending on each persons previous gaming experience.

I came to this game having mainly played single-player RPGs and GW1 and at first I couldn’t even work out how to move because I was used to some sort of click to move system. But the idea that what you do while levelling is the bulk of the game and loot is just a tool to boost your stats or something pretty and not a goal in it’s own right seemed obvious to me. Other people who are used to other MMOs found the control system obvious and were completely thrown by the lack of quest hubs and the fact that you have to do things other than questing or grinding enemies to level up.

People who haven’t played either before will be even more confused. One of my friends had only played FPS games and was confused that you can’t equip one of each weapon type your character can use and that you can get items that have no use at all for you.

I don’t know where I’d even begin trying to explain it to someone like my mum who has only played seriously old-school platformers (I think she gave them up when we put the ZX Spectrum in the loft) puzzle games and point and click adventures.

The start was confusing – “New event nearby!”, “New event nearby!” “Go help somebody somewhere”. There were timers, progress bars. I didn’t know where to go and what to do.
After I’ve learned what events were, all was smooth.

Saying that game is complex? No, not at all. There is a lack of information about anything but if you have them, the game becomes clear as a this guy here (from 1:35):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sItAt25NiY4

Jatacid.3725:

I’ve been running around 100%ing some of the lower level maps lately and helping low levellers.

Today I was chatting with someone who said something really true.

He said how the game is extremely complex, but there aren’t very many, if any, adequate tutorials or in game help to guide players.

I’ve been level 80 for many a months now, and I have to agree.

Without visiting the Wiki, or reading considerable amount of information online, your hope of grasping this game is reduced dramatically. This gives new people the wrong idea about how the game works, and makes the initial experience far less positive.

Ghettoblade.7962:

Complex..LOL…this is the sesame street of mmo’s

I agree with both of you. And thats weird…

Ghettoblade.7962:

Complex..LOL…this is the sesame street of mmo’s

Relevant:

tl;dr

Well, i played GW1 for some years.
Wich wasnt really difficult to learn, but there was alot to learn.
Same thing with GW2 i would say.
That may be the difficulty/complexity perhaps.

AND, for GW1, and now GW2, their Wiki’s are a must really.

I look somthing up on the wiki practically daily.
Could be considered a bad thing perhaps.

People get more and more clumsy as times passes, not only on video games but in life itself; thinking hurts and isn’t encouraged.
One side-effect is this dumbed down gaming experience, take any console game for example: 3 hours of painful pointless tutorials for simplistic mechanics clearly designed for the most casual of the players.

Even so.
This game is too complex.
God have mercy.

Actually, a lot of the part of the game in the early stages are too easy and spoonfed that many players expect the same hand holding style in high lvl areas. For example, in low lvl areas, when an event is on-going, you can see arrows plastered all over the map, where to go, which corner to take. However, on Lv50+ areas, those are gone.

I actually like how Anet did it, the low lvl is sort of a training ground, then you get to think for yourself on higher lvls. It’s like they teach you how to fish, and then you go fish for yourself.

However, some players never got past the learning part and actually expected to be guided all thru out, in all aspects of the game. Thinking for yourself is not considered a good value, but a waste of time (i.e. I can do far more things than trying to figure things out for myself). Maybe it’s good, maybe it’s bad. Personally, I like the idea of trying things out for myself and find things on my own.

For many, it’s the shinies. For the few of us, it’s the journey. I am not saying one is better than the other, just difference in preference, and Anet can probably make an option in the game settings to turn on/off guides.

For example, if the player feels he can remove the training wheels, then all the player do is untick the “Guided Mode” and if the player feels they need more guidance, then just tick it back on.

Anet has done it in low lvl areas, they can do it high lvl areas too (and other aspects of the game like dungeon, crafting, etc).

Here’s a movie which shows exactly what is wrong today:
If Quake was done today
Software is indeed made with assumption that people that uses it are stupid or have no ability to gain knowledge on their own. The worst of tutorials are – “press arrow to move the camera left or right. Good. Then move mouse to move camera up or down. Wrong. Try again. Move mouse…”.
What we need here is a little explanation what the game offers, nothing more.

There is another problem. People are expecting that the game will reward them just for spending time. And many praised it as we receive experience even for cutting trees. This is good. But what is not good is that you can pew pew #1 and you receive the same reward as any other player however he is experienced or whatever he has done (you just need to tag the monster and then you can start picking your nose).
Good players aren’t recognizable at all and it hurts.
The game treats everyone the same – but often a lot below the level they should be treatened. But how should we understand that? That the people who created the game think of us that way – “Hey, let’s put the very basics in the game, let’s cut reading, missions, additional mechanics. Lets leave just the thing that everyone knows how to do – autoattacking. This way no one will complain that he don’t know what to do.” Well, others complain that they are being treatened as idiots.
What people have to understand is that there must be a division line in everything – not everyone can be a brilliant mathematician or tactician or teacher. Someone must repair roads or produce shoes.
Not every child can have (and should have) results comparable to anyone else in the class because good students have to stand out from the crowd and be spotted, recognized.
We now have a global system which step by step takes control of every aspect of our lives. As far as I know there are cities in the US in which you will get mandate if you write a sms while walking (because some idiot woman fell one time in the fountain doing that [a man almost hit a bear once while writing a sms, hehe]) – how good is that?

Level of this game must be raised. Players must not be treated as lower life forms. Lower than what? Than humans a year ago. Or 10 years ago…
So give the casuals some things for them (zerg wars, why not) – but not globally so everyone is affected and add the same amount of content for people who waited a long time for something of good quality and respectable level.

Start respecting opinions of veterans and hear what they have to say because they know what can improve the game. Then add things for masses.

1. Regarding events the issue is not so much complexity as discoverability. The first thing you bump into when walking out of any home city is a scout. Problem is that said scout only points you to hearts, and once they are done clams shut. If they continued to be a source of event locations (ongoing or ready to begin) discovering events would become much easier.

2. on the trinity thing, my opinion is that ANet went too far. They could have implemented a soft trinity where each profession could adapt any of the 3, or some middle ground, but instead they made tanking impossible by stripping the game of any reliable aggro behavior, and made any kind of health related support a dump stat. Hell, healing power, vitality and toughness can in essence all be regarded as dump stats thanks to the dodge mechanic backed by boon duration boosted vigor.

It’s funny that some people say the game is not complex or confusing. I have been playing MMOs for 15 years and this is probably the most scattered and confusing one. To some extent it is that way by design, which particularly makes the people seem silly saying it is not. For example: WvW, PvE, and sPvP are all huge aspects of this game and intersect in ways that are not at all obvious, intuitive, or common to other games. Compared to most other MMOs, this alone makes Guild Wars 2 more confusing and difficult to grasp.

It is not a hard game to play, but you can spend hours and hours researching yourself, reading wikis and websites and forum posts to try to understand in detail how the mystic forge works (for one example). There are many things about the game mechanics that are still debated, are bugged, or have changed, so even talking to experienced and successful players in game about whether or not sigil of force stacks when dual wielded (for example) will often not give you a clear answer, even though this is a BASIC mechanic of the game that is necessary to know when selecting gear.

I have never played a game before which has 20 or 30 different currencies, as GW2 has, and no there is not much rhyme or reason to the different currencies. To a new player the whole idea of having 20 or 30 different currencies is confusing, let alone trying to understand what all the different currencies are and what they can be used for. Can a karma booster be used to get more karma from your karma pots? Hahaha, not such an easy question to answer today is it? And what is the point of karma pots anyway, should you just use them now or save them for later? These are simple questions that every new player will have because they receive karma boosters and pots fairly early.

There is an enormous amount of temporary event content in the game (mats, currencies, characters turning into candy corn men, etc), left over from the past that is confusing to new players but obvious to those who played in the game when that content existed and got to experience it.

Then you can talk about gearing up, please explain to me what is simple about ascended gear, which gear types do and do not exist, which ones will and will not exist, and what currencies you need to acquire in order to purchase ascended gear. Oh, right, so simple. And what is that PvP gear stuff….. Oh, right, so obvious, lol.

There is so much ego masturbation on these forums, it is kind of crazy. If anyone ever says something was hard or confusing you get an immediate 10-15 people crowing about how easy it was for them. Yeah, you’re a real Einstein, we’re all impressed.

@incandescence.:
My God, man, listen to yourself.
The game is exactly like going to supermarket to get groceries for breakfast:
You’ve got there – meats, dairy products, fruits and vegetables and others. You can be only in one at a time and they intersect in a ways not so obvious or intuitive (do you know that you can simmer meat in milk?).
It’s an asset for a game like this to be expansive, broad.
Grasping basic things in this game should take you few minutes. Then next things are introduced as you play. You are not told that there are dungeon currencies or fractals or open world boss battles. You learn of them as you level up, then you go and experience them. Afted doing dungeon you earn a currency. It was obvious that you will use it for specific reward. Karma you are getting from events and then you encounter karma vendor from doing first heart and you know that this is just other currency (second to gold). Is it that complex? Why even name it – managing your dungeon currencies when there is just one vendor for each type of currency. You don’t need to manage it, just collect.

When you are in a supermarket you have so many types of cheese. Which you get? Which you want? Which is best for sandwiches, which is best for a salads (and there are infinite number of possible salads)? People still learn how to even store meat products in refrigerator. Or how to properly prepare pork chop.

If you wanna know if karma booster can be used with combo with karma pots, well I suggest to try, it’s not that hard to answer it yourself, isn’t it?
Ascended gear, hmm. You wanna know about end game stuff in the beginning? Man, relax and level up and learn the game step by step. You do your daily, you receive laurel, you go to laurel merchant and you immediately know how can you acquire stuff.
PvP stuff, hmm. You go to Heart of the Mists and you instantly see that you character is equipped different. Stuff has “PvP” in it’s name. Hmm. How is that complicated?

How can you even name it ego masturbation. The game is vast but it’s simple as simple it can be. You wanna know if sigils stack while wielding two weapons? Try it yourself! You see people turning in other creatures – you ask them how they do it.
I’m glad that you haven’t mentioned how many consumables this game have. So what? As you explore you will get them one by one.

You sound as a man who’s complaint is that he have possibilities and options which he have to explore alone, which aren’t showed to him. When you are in a travel bus, do you use your seat belt or not? It’s the same problem as any you mentioned! You learn it yourself!
You accuse people of learning this game on their own quickly when you find it difficult. It’s like accusing people of buying specific pack of chips while you wonder which you would like while having in mind that it’s just one type of products and there are many more.

How things are introduced or told about is a different problem but it’s not what you say.

Wiki + WP + YouTube + Dulfy + Forums.
But it’s true, none of these are in-game.

There’s a lack of accessible information; it would be very easy to see where a new player would say this is complex.

Like if you started this game after reading the hype train for years to understand what systems are in place and why, it’ll seem natural to you, but there’s a lot going on here that even a person who has previously played MMOs is not going to really get from only being inside the game.

Corian.4068:

but there’s a lot going on here that even a person who has previously played MMOs is not going to really get from only being inside the game.

Story details included

Requiem.8769:

Wiki + WP + YouTube + Dulfy + Forums.
But it’s true, none of these are in-game.

Wiki IS in the game just type /wiki in any chat window and it will pop up in your browser.

I don’t think anyone is asking for one of those obnoxious control tutorials that walks you through every step in moving yourself and the camera. A lot of people aren’t even suggesting a play-through tutorial. Just an explanation in the game itself of some of the key mechanic like what a dynamic event is and why you should do them. And on a related note you won’t find any quest hubs so don’t bother looking.

The problem is getting this into the game in a way that makes sure it can’t be missed by those who need it, without overwhelming or boring those who don’t, when some people already don’t read or listen to what they’re being told.

The wiki is all very well for some things but the problem is it’s hard to search unless you already know what you’re looking for. You can look up Dynamic Events, if you know the name but you can’t search for “What are those orange circles on my map?” or “How do I level up if hearts and quests aren’t enough?”

Gizmo.8623:

The start was confusing – “New event nearby!”, “New event nearby!” “Go help somebody somewhere”. There were timers, progress bars. I didn’t know where to go and what to do.
After I’ve learned what events were, all was smooth.

Saying that game is complex? No, not at all. There is a lack of information about anything but if you have them, the game becomes clear as a this guy here (from 1:35):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sItAt25NiY4

This is what threw me too. Especially since I’d been reading a lot about how unlike conventional quests the events in this game would carry on with or without your participation so you could fail if you spent too long getting to where you needed to be.

To be told that and then thrown straight into the human starting instance with “Quick the town is under attack! we need to get all these people to safety! Ok, now you need to go all the way over the other side of town! Quick, do this! Go here! Do this now!” I felt like I had to rush through the introduction and it was only when I got out of it that I actually had time to stop and figure out what I was doing.

Of course I soon realised that what I’d heard about dynamic events didn’t apply to the introduction at all. The people you save and enemies you kill soon respawn in exactly the same places, neither side does much damage to the other and the town will never burn down no matter how much time you waste. (In the human one you can even watch the boss being killed from the other side of the river as many times as you like before going to kill it yourself.) But at first it was extremely confusing.